Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On Sat, 06 Jul 2019, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 08:00:58PM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote: > > But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is > > outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a listmaster. > > I think there are two separate aspects here. One is the "mindset" you're > discussing here, which I'm positive is shared by most in the project. > Another is explicitly pushing back against the DPL, whose constitutional > roles include "Lead discussions amongst Developers", when he asks gently > to please stop a discussion. Sam wrote: "[listmaster copied in hopes they will agree with my assessment here]" That sentenced basically forced me to write a reply. Maybe, before presuming consense, the DPL should talk to the other teams. Otherwise it may happen that they don't agree. Without a reply everyone would expected that we agree, which is apparently not the case. > I'm sure that was not your intention, but to bystanders that gives the > feeling that you're undermining the DPL's authority, and gets in the way > of the DPL doing his constitutional job in this specific area. So, > personally, I'm torn here: I agree with your open discussion mindset, > but the main issue here was (as I understand it at least) of a different > nature. In fact I think the dpl is undermining the authority of the delegates when he acts in a way like that. We have a process for such things: people complain and we (the listmasters) act on those complaints. The DPL is still free to overwrite our decision afterwards if we don't agree with him. > No need to threaten resignation about this, I'm sure your work as > listmaster is still very much appreciated in the project (and certainly > it is appreciated by me). Thanks Alex signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On July 6, 2019 9:10:57 PM UTC, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: >On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 08:00:58PM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote: >> But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset >is >> outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a >listmaster. > >I think there are two separate aspects here. One is the "mindset" >you're >discussing here, which I'm positive is shared by most in the project. >Another is explicitly pushing back against the DPL, whose >constitutional >roles include "Lead discussions amongst Developers", when he asks >gently >to please stop a discussion. > >I'm sure that was not your intention, but to bystanders that gives the >feeling that you're undermining the DPL's authority, and gets in the >way >of the DPL doing his constitutional job in this specific area. So, >personally, I'm torn here: I agree with your open discussion mindset, >but the main issue here was (as I understand it at least) of a >different >nature. I think if you reread the rest of 5.1.9, I think the listmaster response was correct. Far from undermining the DPL's constitutional role, I think it was an appropriate response to what was at least close to overstepping that role. Scott K
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
* Stefano Zacchiroli: " Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course" (Sat, 6 Jul 2019 23:10:57 +0200): > I'm sure that was not your intention, but to bystanders that gives the > feeling that you're undermining the DPL's authority, and gets in the way > of the DPL doing his constitutional job in this specific area. So, > personally, I'm torn here: I agree with your open discussion mindset, > but the main issue here was (as I understand it at least) of a different > nature. If you are sure it was not the listmasters intention, why then speculate about supposed feelings of bystanders? I just can nothing more than say, that I never had the slightest impression of the listmaster "undermining the DPL's authority". Quite contrary to that impression I would expect the listmaster to act completely independent from the DPL. -- Mathias Behrle ✧ Debian Developer PGP/GnuPG key availabable from any keyserver, ID: 0xD6D09BE48405BBF6 AC29 7E5C 46B9 D0B6 1C71 7681 D6D0 9BE4 8405 BBF6 pgp_4K2LrN6pv.pgp Description: Digitale Signatur von OpenPGP
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
* Alexander Wirt: " Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course" (Sat, 6 Jul 2019 20:00:58 +0200): > On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > > > On 15451 March 1977, Alexander Wirt wrote: > > > [...] > > > Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread. > > > > It is a very good reason to do so, and its sad that our listmasters > > aren't more active in shutting down threads that repeat and repeat and > > repeat all the same things ever again, every other month. > > It would save so much energy that could be used so much more useful. > > > > Same as getting rid of the "all lists are open" thing, something that > > was nice in the past, but has definitely lost its value long ago. > I can not do more than disagree. If you don't like a thread, killfile it. > But using censorship, banning, blocking threads you/someone don't like, just > for the reason *you* don't find them useful is in my eyes just wrong and is > some kind of censorship and should not be done in an open project like > debian. > > But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is > outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a listmaster. Others have already answered, I have the feeling I have to step in at this point, too: I think you are doing exactly your job as listmaster to not influence discussions, but merely control the correct functionality with respect to respect and list guidelines. Thanks, Mathias -- Mathias Behrle ✧ Debian Developer PGP/GnuPG key availabable from any keyserver, ID: 0xD6D09BE48405BBF6 AC29 7E5C 46B9 D0B6 1C71 7681 D6D0 9BE4 8405 BBF6 pgpC8xlQaSiLW.pgp Description: Digitale Signatur von OpenPGP
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 08:00:58PM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote: > But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is > outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a listmaster. I think there are two separate aspects here. One is the "mindset" you're discussing here, which I'm positive is shared by most in the project. Another is explicitly pushing back against the DPL, whose constitutional roles include "Lead discussions amongst Developers", when he asks gently to please stop a discussion. I'm sure that was not your intention, but to bystanders that gives the feeling that you're undermining the DPL's authority, and gets in the way of the DPL doing his constitutional job in this specific area. So, personally, I'm torn here: I agree with your open discussion mindset, but the main issue here was (as I understand it at least) of a different nature. No need to threaten resignation about this, I'm sure your work as listmaster is still very much appreciated in the project (and certainly it is appreciated by me). Cheers -- Stefano Zacchiroli . z...@upsilon.cc . upsilon.cc/zack . . o . . . o . o Computer Science Professor . CTO Software Heritage . . . . . o . . . o o Former Debian Project Leader & OSI Board Director . . . o o o . . . o . « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club » signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
Alexander Wirt - 06.07.19, 20:00: > On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > > On 15451 March 1977, Alexander Wirt wrote: > > > > The tone is absolutely civilized. > > > > And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again > > > > and > > > > again is really high. > > > > > > Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread. > > > > It is a very good reason to do so, and its sad that our listmasters > > aren't more active in shutting down threads that repeat and repeat > > and repeat all the same things ever again, every other month. > > It would save so much energy that could be used so much more useful. > > > > Same as getting rid of the "all lists are open" thing, something > > that > > was nice in the past, but has definitely lost its value long ago. > > I can not do more than disagree. If you don't like a thread, killfile > it. But using censorship, banning, blocking threads you/someone don't > like, just for the reason *you* don't find them useful is in my eyes > just wrong and is some kind of censorship and should not be done in > an open project like debian. > > But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is > outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a > listmaster. I certainly concur with your mindset here. -- Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 06:32:10PM +, Scott Kitterman wrote: > It seems to me that if one is open to diversity of opinion, then there's > no need for someone to feel obligated to educate wrong thinkers. That's > only necessary if there's only one true answer, so anyone with a different > opinion is in need of reeducation. Hah :) Especially the last sentence is worth quoting. :) -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ According to recent spams, "all my email accounts are owned ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ by a hacker". So what's the problem? ⠈⠳⣄
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On Sat, 06 Jul 2019, Alexander Wirt wrote: > On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > > > On 15451 March 1977, Alexander Wirt wrote: > > > > > > The tone is absolutely civilized. > > > > And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again and > > > > again is really high. > > > Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread. > > > > It is a very good reason to do so, and its sad that our listmasters > > aren't more active in shutting down threads that repeat and repeat and > > repeat all the same things ever again, every other month. > > It would save so much energy that could be used so much more useful. > > > > Same as getting rid of the "all lists are open" thing, something that > > was nice in the past, but has definitely lost its value long ago. > I can not do more than disagree. If you don't like a thread, killfile it. > But using censorship, banning, blocking threads you/someone don't like, just > for the reason *you* don't find them useful is in my eyes just wrong and is > some kind of censorship and should not be done in an open project like > debian. > > But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is > outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a listmaster. jftr, I completly support and welcome the work of the publicity and diversity team here and I am proud the we changed our logo to show that we welcome *everyone*. Alex signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On July 6, 2019 6:00:58 PM UTC, Alexander Wirt wrote: >On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > >> On 15451 March 1977, Alexander Wirt wrote: >> >> > > The tone is absolutely civilized. >> > > And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again >and >> > > again is really high. >> > Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread. >> >> It is a very good reason to do so, and its sad that our listmasters >> aren't more active in shutting down threads that repeat and repeat >and >> repeat all the same things ever again, every other month. >> It would save so much energy that could be used so much more useful. >> >> Same as getting rid of the "all lists are open" thing, something that >> was nice in the past, but has definitely lost its value long ago. >I can not do more than disagree. If you don't like a thread, killfile >it. >But using censorship, banning, blocking threads you/someone don't like, >just >for the reason *you* don't find them useful is in my eyes just wrong >and is >some kind of censorship and should not be done in an open project like >debian. > >But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is >outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a >listmaster. > >Alex - Debian Listmaster If such a mindset as that is outdated, then I am too. Please keep up the good work. It seems to me that if one is open to diversity of opinion, then there's no need for someone to feel obligated to educate wrong thinkers. That's only necessary if there's only one true answer, so anyone with a different opinion is in need of reeducation. Scott K
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > On 15451 March 1977, Alexander Wirt wrote: > > > > The tone is absolutely civilized. > > > And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again and > > > again is really high. > > Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread. > > It is a very good reason to do so, and its sad that our listmasters > aren't more active in shutting down threads that repeat and repeat and > repeat all the same things ever again, every other month. > It would save so much energy that could be used so much more useful. > > Same as getting rid of the "all lists are open" thing, something that > was nice in the past, but has definitely lost its value long ago. I can not do more than disagree. If you don't like a thread, killfile it. But using censorship, banning, blocking threads you/someone don't like, just for the reason *you* don't find them useful is in my eyes just wrong and is some kind of censorship and should not be done in an open project like debian. But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a listmaster. Alex - Debian Listmaster signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On 15451 March 1977, Alexander Wirt wrote: The tone is absolutely civilized. And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again and again is really high. Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread. It is a very good reason to do so, and its sad that our listmasters aren't more active in shutting down threads that repeat and repeat and repeat all the same things ever again, every other month. It would save so much energy that could be used so much more useful. Same as getting rid of the "all lists are open" thing, something that was nice in the past, but has definitely lost its value long ago. -- bye, Joerg
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
At 2019-07-02T08:42:43-0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > The tone is absolutely civilized. > > And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again and > again is really high. Yes, and therein rests the utility of allies. Speaking for myself I'd like to endorse the contributions to this thread of Jonathan Carter, Russ Allbery, Ole Streicher, and Colin Watson. They've expressed many things I have wanted to say, often more diplomatically than I think I would have put them. Consider this also: We do need to engage with our membership when they feel marginalized and invisible, even if they do not identify with a widely-recognized minority group--the varieties that rightly get attention in the name of social justice. But we need to understand in explicit terms why we engage, and how we do so. First the why. Over the past 30-40 years, the children of working professionals--a class which I believe characterizes a large majority of our contributors--have become economically squeezed and indebted to an increasily greater degree. Young people can work very hard, as hard as they've ever seen people from their parents' generation work, and yet are often stuck living with those parents, or other relatives, in deterimental domestic relationships, or in circumstances that are altogether precarious, deprived of independence. They feel that opportunities which older generations enjoyed have been denied them through no fault of their own. This feeling is usually vague and accompanied with a great deal of emotional frustration. What is most often missing is a sense of autonomy, a sense of control (or at least meaningful influence) over one's future. There is no shortage of diagnoses for this feeling, and not all of them exclude the others. I will avoid listing them here because they are familiar to anyone who has studied the topic in any depth. The Debian Project offers an environment where people can embrace responsibility, enjoy community, and build professional skills to a point where they are competitive with university graduates for remunerative labor that pays well enough for one to live independently. I do not conjecture; this was my story starting in 1998 after a university experience I'd prefer to forget in some ways. Some people will come to the Project with a lack of social polish or attitudes that don't mesh well with the community. This could be due to psychological issues, bad life experiences, immature political views, the socioecomic frustration I mentioned above, and/or an eccentric sense of humor. The younger the cohort we draw new members from, the more of these we're likely to see. That's part of the price of appealing to the young. I trust that the hazard of not appealing to the young at all is obvious. The good news is that young people grow up--much more reliably than old people do. We can engage them, shape them, help them learn, and also learn _from_ them, often about technological innovations but in other ways too. Note the word "engage" in the foregoing. Some of the most difficult but most enduring learning takes place through discourse. That's the "why". The "how" is tougher, because not everyone shows up with attitudes that promote a healthy society, even a microcosmic one like the Debian Project. This happens, I think, when people feel themselves to not truly be part of the project. They feel they have little stake in the well-being of the people involved in it. I can concede that there are people who sincerely have no idea: * why we don't observe a "WASP" history month; * why Nazis seem to be so prominent at white pride rallies; * why anarcho-capitalists are frequent allies of white supremacists; * why gender pay inequity is a problem; * that gender identity and sexual orientation aren't perfectly fluid; * and why it is not obvious that people should choose to be straight and identify with the gender identity of their chromosomes even if gender identity and sexual orientation were perfectly fluid. ...but much of the time, I suspect, people come to us with supposedly critical questions about the above not out of a spirit of inquiry but because they have been conditioned to practice disruption by troll culture (incels/MRAs/4chan/etc.). Somehow, they imagine, they are frustrating the designs of some conspiratorial force that wants to alter their way of life (even if they find the way of life they're actually experiencing to be a miserable one). It's important to recognize when engagement has a component of sincerity (expecting purity here is too optimistic) and when it is just someone trying to poke our anthill with a stick. Meeting fellow Debian contributors in person helps us not only gauge their sincerity, but tends to establish or remind us of the humanity behind the names. As a rule, the more we socialize, the more we will become socialized. That's facilitation. That's community-organizing. If you're helping make opportunities for that happen,
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
I'm sorry Sam. I sent my last message before reading yours. I will now abstain from further posting. Gerardo
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Sam Hartman wrote: > > "Alexander" == Alexander Wirt writes: > > Alexander> On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Sam Hartman wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> [listmaster copied in hopes they will agree with my assessment > >> here] > Alexander> I don't agree, I think that discussion is important and > Alexander> the tone is still civilized. > > The tone is absolutely civilized. > And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again and > again is really high. Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread. Alex
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
> "Alexander" == Alexander Wirt writes: Alexander> On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Sam Hartman wrote: >> >> >> >> [listmaster copied in hopes they will agree with my assessment >> here] Alexander> I don't agree, I think that discussion is important and Alexander> the tone is still civilized. The tone is absolutely civilized. And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again and again is really high.
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Sam Hartman wrote: > > > > [listmaster copied in hopes they will agree with my assessment here] I don't agree, I think that discussion is important and the tone is still civilized. Alex - Listmaster - but mainly speaking for myself
