Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 11:24:27AM -0400, Steve Langasek wrote: On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 04:27:01PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote: I would rather not complicate the CD+DVD building process even more to produce non-free images. There are so many images that need to be created already. I would like us to provide non-free firmware blobs that may be required during installation in tarballs that can be downloaded or - if this is not possible - be loaded via USB sticks, floppies or cdroms. The installer would need a possibility to include such firmware blobs and detect hardware again if required to continue the installation process. There's a solution that seems obvious to me here, but no one has implemented it yet, so I must be missing something; but I'll throw it out as a starting point for discussion. Why don't we offer tools - either web-based or commandline - that can append a prepared firmware blob to an ordinary ISO in order to create an image that can be burned as a multisession disk? If this is technically possible - and I believe that it should be - then we don't have to waste mirror space, build time, etc. on a second set of non-free images. We would just have to make sure we leave enough extra room on our regular ISOs to allow grafting on the firmware at the end, and prepare firmware blobs in an appendable format. So what am I missing? More of a hack than what you describe, but I have a shell script to append firmware for a release to a given piece of media: http://dannf.org/bloggf/tech/add-firmware-to.html (yes, I'm quite behind on -project) -- dann frazier -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100813055829.gd10...@lackof.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
* Kurt Roeckx k...@roeckx.be [2010-05-24 16:43:23 CEST]: On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 02:13:30PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: Yup, definitely. We already have an unofficial non-free area on cdimage.debian.org which is where we've been pushing the firmware zip/tar.gz files already. I'll set up the extra images to be dropped in there. It would be nice if this could all be moved somewhere else so that it gets mirrored. I don't think that it's a good idea to drop non-free data on mirrors without them knowing about the change. Keeping it seperate but sending the cd mirror admins a mail about that there is additional stuff that they might want to mirror sounds like the more sensible approach to me. Thanks, Rhonda -- most users choose convenience over security, and that's reflected in the choice of the current default Hin-Tak Leung -- http://bugs.ghostscript.com/show_bug.cgi?id=691339#c7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100607085919.gc1...@anguilla.debian.or.at
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: [Steve McIntyre] Yup, definitely. We already have an unofficial non-free area on cdimage.debian.org which is where we've been pushing the firmware zip/tar.gz files already. I'll set up the extra images to be dropped in there. A few days ago, I extended hw-detect to look for firmware (u)debs in /firmware/ (for PXE boot images) and /cdrom/firmware/, so if you create a CD/DVD with the firmware .deb files in a firmware/ directory in the root of the CD, it should work out of the box. Any license question asked in the package preinst should be displayed, and the firmware package will not be used if the license isn't accepted. The change is in the daily built d-i images already. Please report back if it do not work for you. Very good, thanks a lot. Grüße, Joey -- It's time to close the windows. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100527173245.gb5...@valse.home.infodrom.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 11:33:11AM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: Early on in this thread [1] I've tried to identify our options, which essentially boil down to: 1) have the non-free firmware on the (first) install media, protected by a BIG FAT WARNING saying that you need non-free firmware to proceed, but that using it: you get out of Debian, you don't have support, you should complain with your HW manufacturer, and that thousands of kittens will be killed by your choice 2) have an alternative set of installation medias (basically Debian + non-free firmware), shipped under a non-free section of our mirrors My reading of this thread, assuming that it is representative, is that (2) is preferred among developers; that is also my favorite choice. I've then asked Steve McIntyre his opinion (thanks!), as Debian CD team member, to understand the impact/feasibility on the media production. In short [2]: - it seems to be feasible - he suggested to just do that for netinst (to avoid duplicating the production of all media) - a reasonable ETA to have the work-flow for producing both sets of images is about 2 weeks Sorry for the delay in responding - back from VAC now and just about caught up. Yes, adding an extra netinst variant looks feasible and should be doable without much extra work. I'm hoping to get this going soon. Another interesting proposal advanced in this thread [3] by Steve Langasek is to create on the fly the non-free images. That would be cool, but I think we should pose the requirement that our users are able to download the non-free image as usual, and that the image is created on the fly for them behind the scenes (as Steve has hinted in [3] already). So, the point to whether this is possible or not is the obvious one: who volunteers to work on that? I suggest that we go for the alternate image set by default, unless someone steps up with a working implementation of Steve idea in time for Squeeze. I'd prefer to do the separate image route to start with, at least. Much simpler for now... :-) A last important point is how to advertise the non-free images on the web. We should obviously write in the release note the change and IMHO we should have a link to the non-free images near the download links for the free images, visually warning that they are non-free, pretty much as we visually warn non-free packages on packages.d.o and similar other parts of our infrastructure. Yup, definitely. We already have an unofficial non-free area on cdimage.debian.org which is where we've been pushing the firmware zip/tar.gz files already. I'll set up the extra images to be dropped in there. I'm guessing that we're not likely to want the extra images for all architectures: i386/amd64/powerpc(?). Any others? PS thanks to Kurt for having started this discussion! Definitely! -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com Support the Campaign for Audiovisual Free Expression: http://www.eff.org/cafe/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100524131330.gb30...@einval.com
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
[Steve McIntyre] Yup, definitely. We already have an unofficial non-free area on cdimage.debian.org which is where we've been pushing the firmware zip/tar.gz files already. I'll set up the extra images to be dropped in there. A few days ago, I extended hw-detect to look for firmware (u)debs in /firmware/ (for PXE boot images) and /cdrom/firmware/, so if you create a CD/DVD with the firmware .deb files in a firmware/ directory in the root of the CD, it should work out of the box. Any license question asked in the package preinst should be displayed, and the firmware package will not be used if the license isn't accepted. The change is in the daily built d-i images already. Please report back if it do not work for you. I'm guessing that we're not likely to want the extra images for all architectures: i386/amd64/powerpc(?). Any others? I have no idea. I only use i386 and amd64. :) Happy hacking, -- Petter Reinholdtsen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2flfx1hxuyc@login1.uio.no
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 02:13:30PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: Yup, definitely. We already have an unofficial non-free area on cdimage.debian.org which is where we've been pushing the firmware zip/tar.gz files already. I'll set up the extra images to be dropped in there. It would be nice if this could all be moved somewhere else so that it gets mirrored. Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100524144323.ga17...@roeckx.be
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 03:58:35PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: [Steve McIntyre] Yup, definitely. We already have an unofficial non-free area on cdimage.debian.org which is where we've been pushing the firmware zip/tar.gz files already. I'll set up the extra images to be dropped in there. A few days ago, I extended hw-detect to look for firmware (u)debs in /firmware/ (for PXE boot images) and /cdrom/firmware/, so if you create a CD/DVD with the firmware .deb files in a firmware/ directory in the root of the CD, it should work out of the box. Any license question asked in the package preinst should be displayed, and the firmware package will not be used if the license isn't accepted. The change is in the daily built d-i images already. Please report back if it do not work for you. Yup, will do. :-) I'm guessing that we're not likely to want the extra images for all architectures: i386/amd64/powerpc(?). Any others? I have no idea. I only use i386 and amd64. :) Quite. Anybody else? -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com We don't need no education. We don't need no thought control. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100524154626.gj4...@einval.com
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 04:43:23PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote: On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 02:13:30PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: Yup, definitely. We already have an unofficial non-free area on cdimage.debian.org which is where we've been pushing the firmware zip/tar.gz files already. I'll set up the extra images to be dropped in there. It would be nice if this could all be moved somewhere else so that it gets mirrored. We can do that, yes, if desired. I'd probably prefer to keep it outside of the normal release images area, but I could be persuaded otherwise if enough people would prefer different. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com Is there anybody out there? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100524155218.gk4...@einval.com
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
Steve McIntyre schrieb am Monday, den 24. May 2010: Hi, *snip* I'm guessing that we're not likely to want the extra images for all architectures: i386/amd64/powerpc(?). Any others? I have no idea. I only use i386 and amd64. :) Quite. Anybody else? I think we should also include ppc, especially for the powerbook users with a b43. Alex -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100524155156.gb24...@lisa.snow-crash.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Wed, May 05, 2010 at 06:29:55PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
So I was wondering what the state is of everything, and what
issues people will run into, specially when installing.
So, let me try to wrap-up this discussion. I've gather some info from
Ben Hutchings (thanks!) on the actual impact on the installation. That
is quite significant, as at the very minimum people having the following
network cards won't be able to install without the firmware:
- Intel, Ralink or Realtek wifi controller
- Broadcom NetXtreme II Ethernet controller
Nevertheless, the split of the firmware is an achievement for Debian,
which answers to the criticism we got for having made compromises in
past releases. It is also a success story in the sense that, while
people ranted with us for those compromises, our kernel team worked on
the issue and the net result is that things have improved also upstream
now, thanks to their contributions. In fact, I think we should also do a
bit of communication on the subject, as it will be a remarkable
achievement for Squeeze.
From here, the point is of course how to avoid making the life of users
which need non-free firmware non miserable upon install, while still
making clear that those bits are not part of Debian.
Early on in this thread [1] I've tried to identify our options, which
essentially boil down to:
1) have the non-free firmware on the (first) install media, protected
by a BIG FAT WARNING saying that you need non-free firmware to
proceed, but that using it: you get out of Debian, you don't have
support, you should complain with your HW manufacturer, and that
thousands of kittens will be killed by your choice
2) have an alternative set of installation medias (basically Debian +
non-free firmware), shipped under a non-free section of our mirrors
My reading of this thread, assuming that it is representative, is that
(2) is preferred among developers; that is also my favorite choice.
I've then asked Steve McIntyre his opinion (thanks!), as Debian CD team
member, to understand the impact/feasibility on the media production. In
short [2]:
- it seems to be feasible
- he suggested to just do that for netinst (to avoid duplicating the
production of all media)
- a reasonable ETA to have the work-flow for producing both sets of
images is about 2 weeks
Another interesting proposal advanced in this thread [3] by Steve
Langasek is to create on the fly the non-free images. That would be
cool, but I think we should pose the requirement that our users are able
to download the non-free image as usual, and that the image is created
on the fly for them behind the scenes (as Steve has hinted in [3]
already). So, the point to whether this is possible or not is the
obvious one: who volunteers to work on that? I suggest that we go for
the alternate image set by default, unless someone steps up with a
working implementation of Steve idea in time for Squeeze.
A last important point is how to advertise the non-free images on the
web. We should obviously write in the release note the change and IMHO
we should have a link to the non-free images near the download links for
the free images, visually warning that they are non-free, pretty much
as we visually warn non-free packages on packages.d.o and similar other
parts of our infrastructure.
Cheers
PS thanks to Kurt for having started this discussion!
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2010/05/msg00046.html
[2] disclaimer: IIRC, hence Cc:-ing debian...@lists.d.o to ensure I'm
not on crack; please Steve or other debian-cd people correct me if
I'm utterly wrong!
[3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2010/05/msg00081.html
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
Bernd Zeimetz dijo [Sun, May 09, 2010 at 09:01:55PM +0200]: I’ve never had trouble with such hardware. You can plug a virtual USB device with a hd-media boot image, and put the firmwares on the same image. Right. It works, but it is an annoying extra step to do. And I had more than one customer asking me why Debian is forcing them to do such an extra step and why they should not just use Ubuntu. Right. And then, you can tell them that Debian does not compromise on its Free Software principles, right? That is one of the main points that differentiates our distributions. And knowing what each distribution stands for, your client will choose what suits him best. And no harm is done to Debian if your client chooses Ubuntu! -- Gunnar Wolf • gw...@gwolf.org • (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100517175108.gc14...@gwolf.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
Tollef Fog Heen dijo [Thu, May 13, 2010 at 08:04:43AM +0200]: ]] Martin Schulze | I'm sure these modern systems do have USB connectors. It's quite inconvenient to plug USB sticks into machines which are on the other side of the Atlantic ocean. It is quite convenient to get free tickets to travel and have an opportunity for keydrinking! -- Gunnar Wolf • gw...@gwolf.org • (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100517193319.gd14...@gwolf.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 04:27:01PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote: I would rather not complicate the CD+DVD building process even more to produce non-free images. There are so many images that need to be created already. I would like us to provide non-free firmware blobs that may be required during installation in tarballs that can be downloaded or - if this is not possible - be loaded via USB sticks, floppies or cdroms. The installer would need a possibility to include such firmware blobs and detect hardware again if required to continue the installation process. There's a solution that seems obvious to me here, but no one has implemented it yet, so I must be missing something; but I'll throw it out as a starting point for discussion. Why don't we offer tools - either web-based or commandline - that can append a prepared firmware blob to an ordinary ISO in order to create an image that can be burned as a multisession disk? If this is technically possible - and I believe that it should be - then we don't have to waste mirror space, build time, etc. on a second set of non-free images. We would just have to make sure we leave enough extra room on our regular ISOs to allow grafting on the firmware at the end, and prepare firmware blobs in an appendable format. So what am I missing? -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 11:24 -0400, Steve Langasek wrote: On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 04:27:01PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote: I would rather not complicate the CD+DVD building process even more to produce non-free images. There are so many images that need to be created already. I would like us to provide non-free firmware blobs that may be required during installation in tarballs that can be downloaded or - if this is not possible - be loaded via USB sticks, floppies or cdroms. The installer would need a possibility to include such firmware blobs and detect hardware again if required to continue the installation process. There's a solution that seems obvious to me here, but no one has implemented it yet, so I must be missing something; but I'll throw it out as a starting point for discussion. Why don't we offer tools - either web-based or commandline - that can append a prepared firmware blob to an ordinary ISO in order to create an image that can be burned as a multisession disk? If this is technically possible - and I believe that it should be - then we don't have to waste mirror space, build time, etc. on a second set of non-free images. We would just have to make sure we leave enough extra room on our regular ISOs to allow grafting on the firmware at the end, and prepare firmware blobs in an appendable format. So what am I missing? This sounds technically plausible, but presumably requires some changes in the debian-cd package. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings Once a job is fouled up, anything done to improve it makes it worse. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On 05/12/2010 09:41 PM, Martin Schulze wrote: Bernd Zeimetz wrote: On 05/12/2010 04:27 PM, Martin Schulze wrote: I would like us to provide non-free firmware blobs that may be required during installation in tarballs that can be downloaded or - Downloading is exactly the problem. A lot of modern enterprise network hardware (like the Broadcom Netextreme) requires non-free firmware. You forgot to quote: if this is not possible - be loaded via USB sticks, floppies or cdroms. The installer would need a possibility to include such I'm sure these modern systems do have USB connectors. Did you even read the thread? We were always talking about getting rid of the need for a second install medium for various reasons. Downloading stuff from the internet is not the issue here. -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprints: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79 ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bed21d1.6030...@bzed.de
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On 05/13/2010 04:18 AM, Paul Wise wrote: On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Bernd Zeimetz be...@bzed.de wrote: Using only 'free' software might make them happier, but the first thing people look for is less pain in the ass while installing and maintaining a system. We are not in a perfect world unfortunately, so blaming the hardware vendor is not the first option people choose. Using a just working installer is the option. I can understand that. Sorry for not making it clear, but my point was that since you're interacting with the people who are complaining to you about non-free firmware missing from the default Debian install media, you could be directing their ire (and more importantly feedback) towards the hardware vendors. BTW, what is your current response to such customer complaints? Depends on the customer. Some know the story behind it and just want a workaround and others need some explanation why the stuff is non-free and why Debian doesn't have it on the installers But in the end all they want to have is a working installer without the extra pain to find the proper piece of firmware, put it onto a second medium and so on. -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprints: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79 ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bed231b@bzed.de
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
]] Martin Schulze | I'm sure these modern systems do have USB connectors. It's quite inconvenient to plug USB sticks into machines which are on the other side of the Atlantic ocean. -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87bpckgww4@qurzaw.linpro.no
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
]] Paul Wise | Based on these factors I would consider it appropriate to ship two | copies of the install media, at least while we have non-free and SC | #5. I can't speak for everybody else, but for me, it'd be sufficient to have this support in the d-i images since I tend to either use the mini.iso or PXE boot rather than using full ISOs. -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8739xwgunz@qurzaw.linpro.no
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On 05/10/2010 08:33 AM, Holger Levsen wrote: Hi, On Freitag, 7. Mai 2010, Paul Wise wrote: What makes it problematic to modify the install media (initrd I guess) you downloaded and add the firmware? For quite some people it's very difficult (hi bro!), for some it's impossible (hi dad!) and for most of the rest it's a PITA (hi me!). And, for another tiny fraction it is easy and smells like freedom. Maybe we should really provide two sets of Debian install media for squeeze, pure Debian and Debian with non-free firmwarez included. Then, after two releases we can look at the download statistics and see, if we want to continue that... +1 from me! -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprints: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79 ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bea8b6f.1020...@bzed.de
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 01:04:47PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: On 05/10/2010 01:50 AM, Paul Wise wrote: On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Bernd Zeimetz be...@bzed.de wrote: Right. It works, but it is an annoying extra step to do. And I had more than one customer asking me why Debian is forcing them to do such an extra step and why they should not just use Ubuntu. Tell them to blame their hardware vendor for not releasing the firmware as free software. It is rare to see that, but it does happen: http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers/ar9170.fw http://packages.debian.org/sid/all/firmware-linux-free/filelist Using only 'free' software might make them happier, but the first thing people look for is less pain in the ass while installing and maintaining a system. We are not in a perfect world unfortunately, so blaming the hardware vendor is not the first option people choose. Using a just working installer is the option. btw, http://blogs.gnome.org/otte/2010/05/09/whose-fault-is-it/ Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100512112419.gc4...@nighthawk.chemicalconnection.dyndns.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 01:05:19PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: On 05/10/2010 08:33 AM, Holger Levsen wrote: Hi, On Freitag, 7. Mai 2010, Paul Wise wrote: What makes it problematic to modify the install media (initrd I guess) you downloaded and add the firmware? For quite some people it's very difficult (hi bro!), for some it's impossible (hi dad!) and for most of the rest it's a PITA (hi me!). And, for another tiny fraction it is easy and smells like freedom. Maybe we should really provide two sets of Debian install media for squeeze, pure Debian and Debian with non-free firmwarez included. Then, after two releases we can look at the download statistics and see, if we want to continue that... +1 from me! I also think this is the way forward, provided the non-free images are seperated on cdimage.debian.org from the free ones in some way that makes it e.g. easy for mirror admins to not include them (I don't say they shouldn't). Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100512112540.gd4...@nighthawk.chemicalconnection.dyndns.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On 05/12/2010 04:27 PM, Martin Schulze wrote: I would rather not complicate the CD+DVD building process even more to produce non-free images. There are so many images that need to be created already. And? Creating a full set of images takes 2 hours (if I remember right) now. Also we don't need to rebuild all images - only the image people boot from. That should be done in a few minutes. I would like us to provide non-free firmware blobs that may be required during installation in tarballs that can be downloaded or - Downloading is exactly the problem. A lot of modern enterprise network hardware (like the Broadcom Netextreme) requires non-free firmware. -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprints: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79 ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4beaebac.40...@bzed.de
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
Bernd Zeimetz wrote: On 05/12/2010 04:27 PM, Martin Schulze wrote: I would like us to provide non-free firmware blobs that may be required during installation in tarballs that can be downloaded or - Downloading is exactly the problem. A lot of modern enterprise network hardware (like the Broadcom Netextreme) requires non-free firmware. You forgot to quote: if this is not possible - be loaded via USB sticks, floppies or cdroms. The installer would need a possibility to include such I'm sure these modern systems do have USB connectors. Regards, Joey -- All language designers are arrogant. Goes with the territory... -- Larry Wall -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100512194151.gx31...@finlandia.home.infodrom.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 04:27:01PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote: I would like us to provide non-free firmware blobs that may be required during installation in tarballs that can be downloaded or - if this is not possible - be loaded via USB sticks, floppies or cdroms. I thought this was exactly the current situation with lenny. The installer would need a possibility to include such firmware blobs and detect hardware again if required to continue the installation process. Not sure about this bit, though, but I wouldn't be surprised if it worked, either. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100512225113.ga4...@nighthawk.chemicalconnection.dyndns.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:41 AM, Martin Schulze j...@infodrom.org wrote: I'm sure these modern systems do have USB connectors. They do have USB, according to advocates of shipping the non-free firmware in our install media, the problem is when installing remotely you don't have access to these connectors. The other side of this problem is people who don't have the ability to modify their install media at all or would find it a significant enough challenge to lead them to just forget installing Debian (and use Fedora, Ubuntu etc instead) or would just find it a pain to do. This is probably a significant portion of Debian users. Based on these factors I would consider it appropriate to ship two copies of the install media, at least while we have non-free and SC #5. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktikbv_lyfv38bduvaf3rgb0-yhwmdmapjorgy...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Bernd Zeimetz be...@bzed.de wrote: Using only 'free' software might make them happier, but the first thing people look for is less pain in the ass while installing and maintaining a system. We are not in a perfect world unfortunately, so blaming the hardware vendor is not the first option people choose. Using a just working installer is the option. I can understand that. Sorry for not making it clear, but my point was that since you're interacting with the people who are complaining to you about non-free firmware missing from the default Debian install media, you could be directing their ire (and more importantly feedback) towards the hardware vendors. BTW, what is your current response to such customer complaints? -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktingwe_vhga0-r-tm4t62xcb1sziykrukinyv...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
Hi, On Freitag, 7. Mai 2010, Paul Wise wrote: What makes it problematic to modify the install media (initrd I guess) you downloaded and add the firmware? For quite some people it's very difficult (hi bro!), for some it's impossible (hi dad!) and for most of the rest it's a PITA (hi me!). And, for another tiny fraction it is easy and smells like freedom. Maybe we should really provide two sets of Debian install media for squeeze, pure Debian and Debian with non-free firmwarez included. Then, after two releases we can look at the download statistics and see, if we want to continue that... cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On 05/06/2010 07:22 PM, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Wed, May 05, 2010 at 11:26:55PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: I can't see a reason why we should not be able to ship cd-images in non-free. What do you exactly mean by that? I can imagine at least two different interpretations of it: 1) Having different CD image sets: some sets containing only free firmware, some others containing also the non-free firmware (It seems that you meant this one, but notice that it will induce a new choice point in the current CD creation work-flow.) I thought about this option, clearly marking them as not part of Debian as we do it for non-free. 2) Having the non-free firmware in the regular CD image sets; firmware which is not loaded by default, but that can be selectively enabled by the user, pretty much as users can now enable non-free in sources.list to get non-free packages from the Internet media (to be compared with the CD media). Sounds like the better option, at least for the firmware which is necessary to make the network interface work. Everything else could be downloaded later by showing the user a dialog like 'you need this non-free firmware stuff, which is not part of debian, but we have it right here for you... do you want it?' -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprints: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79 ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4be6798d.4090...@bzed.de
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Sun, May 09, 2010 at 10:59:57AM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: On 05/06/2010 07:22 PM, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: 2) Having the non-free firmware in the regular CD image sets; firmware which is not loaded by default, but that can be selectively enabled by the user, pretty much as users can now enable non-free in sources.list to get non-free packages from the Internet media (to be compared with the CD media). Sounds like the better option, at least for the firmware which is necessary to make the network interface work. Everything else could be downloaded later by showing the user a dialog like 'you need this non-free firmware stuff, which is not part of debian, but we have it right here for you... do you want it?' Personally, I don't think it is good to ship stuff we consider non-free on our official installation media. I would prefer we either decide that some of those/all of those firmware files are fine WRT our guidelines (possibly clarifying those guidelines in the process), or we go the route of the seperate CD set. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100509092311.gc12...@nighthawk.chemicalconnection.dyndns.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On 05/07/2010 12:02 PM, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le vendredi 07 mai 2010 à 09:49 +0800, Paul Wise a écrit : So the problem only occurs when installing on a host you don't have physical access to and which requires non-free firmware blobs to access the network? Does it occur in any other situation? I've never had to do such a thing, what is your current approach to that? I assume you aren't using CD images here since you mentioned netinst. I’ve never had trouble with such hardware. You can plug a virtual USB device with a hd-media boot image, and put the firmwares on the same image. Right. It works, but it is an annoying extra step to do. And I had more than one customer asking me why Debian is forcing them to do such an extra step and why they should not just use Ubuntu. -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprints: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79 ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4be706a3.3090...@bzed.de
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Bernd Zeimetz be...@bzed.de wrote: Right. It works, but it is an annoying extra step to do. And I had more than one customer asking me why Debian is forcing them to do such an extra step and why they should not just use Ubuntu. Tell them to blame their hardware vendor for not releasing the firmware as free software. It is rare to see that, but it does happen: http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers/ar9170.fw http://packages.debian.org/sid/all/firmware-linux-free/filelist -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/o2ne13a36b31005091650rfc760cffpd88079e00870...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On jeu., 2010-05-06 at 21:16 -0500, Raphael Geissert wrote: Josselin Mouette wrote: If there really was a need for it, such images would already exist. They do already exist and are labelled *Ubuntu. That's what people end up trying and installing after they waste their time installing Debian just to see that their wireless and/or ethernet card doesn't work (because most people don't know or care why it doesn't. It just doesn't.) Trying to tell people that they need to download something extra to make their networking devices work is not fun when they just wiped off the only thing that was working: Windows. And for those suggesting one should modify the installation media: good luck saying that to newcomers. That's why we have an installation manual, too. Maybe we don't advertise it enough, maybe we should add a large enough RTFM somewhere on download pages. I don't think we want to go back on the yes/no about firmwares, there was already too much noise about that. Situation is, no non-free firmware in main, what can we do to improve the installer. I can buy the argument about remote servers, although if they boot the installer, they should be able to get some files too, whether from a device if they boot from usb or cd, or from the tftp server if they netboot. For local, personal boxes, I really think plugging an usb key is not really that hard. Maybe we need to advertise the firmware.tar.gz more, even in d-i itself (like “that module requires a non free firmware, which you might find at http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/firmware/lenny/current/firmware.tar.gz” (or a shorter url if needed)) Cheers, -- Yves-Alexis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Fri, May 07, 2010 at 08:33:24AM +0200, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote: On jeu., 2010-05-06 at 21:16 -0500, Raphael Geissert wrote: Josselin Mouette wrote: If there really was a need for it, such images would already exist. They do already exist and are labelled *Ubuntu. That's what people end up trying and installing after they waste their time installing Debian just to see that their wireless and/or ethernet card doesn't work (because most people don't know or care why it doesn't. It just doesn't.) Trying to tell people that they need to download something extra to make their networking devices work is not fun when they just wiped off the only thing that was working: Windows. And for those suggesting one should modify the installation media: good luck saying that to newcomers. That's why we have an installation manual, too. Maybe we don't advertise it enough, maybe we should add a large enough RTFM somewhere on download pages. Even with a big RTFM, people won't start reading the manual. Reality is sad: people don't read manuals, and worse, people don't read what is written on their screen either. Ask around you, I'm pretty sure you can find nice stories about people not reading what their computer is telling them. Here is one: a secretary on a Mac calls support because the printer doesn't work. Turns out there was a dialog on the Mac telling her to put paper in the tray and click ok when it's ready. You'd think that'd be enough... Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100507065207.ga2...@glandium.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
Le vendredi 07 mai 2010 à 09:49 +0800, Paul Wise a écrit : So the problem only occurs when installing on a host you don't have physical access to and which requires non-free firmware blobs to access the network? Does it occur in any other situation? I've never had to do such a thing, what is your current approach to that? I assume you aren't using CD images here since you mentioned netinst. I’ve never had trouble with such hardware. You can plug a virtual USB device with a hd-media boot image, and put the firmwares on the same image. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “A handshake with whitnesses is the same `- as a signed contact.” -- Jörg Schilling -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1273226551.28184.3.ca...@meh
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On jeu., 2010-05-06 at 09:15 +0800, Paul Wise wrote: I recently had to install Debian lenny on a HP ProLiant machine, which required bnx2 firmware for the network controller. Just downloaded the firmware .deb from packages.d.o, stuck it on a FAT32 formatted USB stick and everything worked fine. The only thing which would be needed, imho, is a central point to easily download firmwares you need. Some place which would be advertised in the documentation. Uh, but, wait. Isn't that the point of: http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.html “Loading firmwares”, which points to: http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/firmware/lenny/current/firmware.tar.gz Wow, nice. -- Yves-Alexis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Yves-Alexis Perez kirjoitti: On jeu., 2010-05-06 at 09:15 +0800, Paul Wise wrote: I recently had to install Debian lenny on a HP ProLiant machine, which required bnx2 firmware for the network controller. Just downloaded the firmware .deb from packages.d.o, stuck it on a FAT32 formatted USB stick and everything worked fine. The only thing which would be needed, imho, is a central point to easily download firmwares you need. Some place which would be advertised in the documentation. How does the user know, which firmware he/she is going to need? It is doable to have the files on usb-stick or some such, if it is known which files need to be there. - -- Tapio Lehtonen tapio.lehto...@iki.fi -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkvikuoACgkQ5TuKppZVLWOPUACgkmJDkxwfptB5xonvvwjf0cWs r+sAoI2QPYzbRKP5z2RAFmTI1t4XDz0E =QJEr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4be292eb.7050...@dnainternet.net
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
]] Arto Jantunen | Peter Palfrader wea...@debian.org writes: | | On Wed, 05 May 2010, Arto Jantunen wrote: | Seriously speaking, to me it seems very clear that non-free firmware | will not be present on official installer images. Then again, the | installer team has made it very easy to inject firmware during | installation on machines where it's needed. | | Have they? It's the most painful thing every time I need to setup a new | box. It's the most time consuming part too, easily doubling or | trippling the time, if not worse, it takes to install a new system. | Most if the time it involves re-creating installer media because debian | can't be arsed to be useful by default. | | Is that what you mean with very easy? | | I understood that current Debian Installer takes firmware during | install via usb sticks, floppies, etc. It's not uncommon to install machines you are not physically close to and where plugging in hardware is therefore hard, so having it on the install media already is quite useful. -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87d3x9b7rb@qurzaw.linpro.no
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
[Tollef Fog Heen] It's not uncommon to install machines you are not physically close to and where plugging in hardware is therefore hard, so having it on the install media already is quite useful. Yes. It would allow one to create ones own installation CD with firmware included, and get the installer to find them out of the box. I've created a patch for this, available from URL: http://bugs.debian.org/574116 , but have not had time to test it yet. Happy hacking, -- Petter Reinholdtsen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2flbpctb0dt@login1.uio.no
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On 06/05/2010 11:59, Tapio Lehtonen wrote: How does the user know, which firmware he/she is going to need? It is doable to have the files on usb-stick or some such, if it is known which files need to be there. Note that firwmare.tar.gz contains quite a lot of firmwares. And, afair, the installer will tell you the firmware or the module name. And, if the point is to not waste time each time you reinstall the same hardware, you usually end up knowing which firmware you need. And there are the DebianOn wiki pages which might help you on that too. Cheers, -- Yves-Alexis -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4be2da13.4000...@debian.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
p...@debian.org wrote: I'm also wondering what people think about adding some firmware to our official installation media. I don't think it is needed. I do. I recently had to install Debian lenny on a HP ProLiant machine, which required bnx2 firmware for the network controller. Just downloaded the firmware .deb from packages.d.o, stuck it on a FAT32 formatted USB stick and everything worked fine. Now try again, this time netinstalling an IBM Bladecenter with modern blades like HS21 or HS2. To which you have no physical access because it is in a different city. -- ciao, Marco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/hruml0$eh...@posted-at.bofh.it
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On 2010-05-05, Bernd Zeimetz be...@bzed.de wrote: This is still an annoying thing to handle. If you install machines at different locations regulary, this firmware crap is nothing but a pita. I can't see a reason why we should not be able to ship cd-images in non-free. I fully concur. Cheers, Moritz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrnhu3pj9.4rf@inutil.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Wed, May 05, 2010 at 11:26:55PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
I can't see a reason why we should not be able to ship cd-images in
non-free.
What do you exactly mean by that?
I can imagine at least two different interpretations of it:
1) Having different CD image sets: some sets containing only free
firmware, some others containing also the non-free firmware
(It seems that you meant this one, but notice that it will induce a
new choice point in the current CD creation work-flow.)
2) Having the non-free firmware in the regular CD image sets; firmware
which is not loaded by default, but that can be selectively enabled
by the user, pretty much as users can now enable non-free in
sources.list to get non-free packages from the Internet media (to
be compared with the CD media).
Let's first clarify the options, so that we can have a more fruitful
flame fest on them later on :)
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 11:18 PM, Marco d'Itri m...@linux.it wrote: Now try again, this time netinstalling an IBM Bladecenter with modern blades like HS21 or HS2. To which you have no physical access because it is in a different city. So the problem only occurs when installing on a host you don't have physical access to and which requires non-free firmware blobs to access the network? Does it occur in any other situation? I've never had to do such a thing, what is your current approach to that? I assume you aren't using CD images here since you mentioned netinst. What makes it problematic to modify the install media (initrd I guess) you downloaded and add the firmware? -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/j2he13a36b31005061849oa527ca4fi63693e2385943...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
Josselin Mouette wrote: If there really was a need for it, such images would already exist. They do already exist and are labelled *Ubuntu. That's what people end up trying and installing after they waste their time installing Debian just to see that their wireless and/or ethernet card doesn't work (because most people don't know or care why it doesn't. It just doesn't.) Trying to tell people that they need to download something extra to make their networking devices work is not fun when they just wiped off the only thing that was working: Windows. And for those suggesting one should modify the installation media: good luck saying that to newcomers. It's difficult enough for some people to find the right iso they need. Regards, -- Raphael Geissert - Debian Developer www.debian.org - get.debian.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/hrvt5d$jq...@dough.gmane.org
Squeeze, firmware and installation
Hi, It seems the kernel team has moved alot of firmware to non-free, which means that more people will need to use pieces from non-free to be able to use their computer. So I was wondering what the state is of everything, and what issues people will run into, specially when installing. I'm also wondering what people think about adding some firmware to our official installation media. Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100505162955.ga17...@roeckx.be
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
Kurt Roeckx k...@roeckx.be writes: It seems the kernel team has moved alot of firmware to non-free, which means that more people will need to use pieces from non-free to be able to use their computer. So I was wondering what the state is of everything, and what issues people will run into, specially when installing. I'm also wondering what people think about adding some firmware to our official installation media. Hmm. Is the release already so close that it's time to have this flamewar again? Shouldn't we wait a month or two for maximal effect? Seriously speaking, to me it seems very clear that non-free firmware will not be present on official installer images. Then again, the installer team has made it very easy to inject firmware during installation on machines where it's needed. I can't see anything else that would need to be done here, and I'd prefer not having to vote about it if at all possible. -- Arto Jantunen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87r5lq5g7p@viiru.iki.fi
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Wed, 05 May 2010, Arto Jantunen wrote: Kurt Roeckx k...@roeckx.be writes: It seems the kernel team has moved alot of firmware to non-free, which means that more people will need to use pieces from non-free to be able to use their computer. So I was wondering what the state is of everything, and what issues people will run into, specially when installing. I'm also wondering what people think about adding some firmware to our official installation media. Hmm. Is the release already so close that it's time to have this flamewar again? Shouldn't we wait a month or two for maximal effect? Seriously speaking, to me it seems very clear that non-free firmware will not be present on official installer images. Then again, the installer team has made it very easy to inject firmware during installation on machines where it's needed. Have they? It's the most painful thing every time I need to setup a new box. It's the most time consuming part too, easily doubling or trippling the time, if not worse, it takes to install a new system. Most if the time it involves re-creating installer media because debian can't be arsed to be useful by default. Is that what you mean with very easy? -- | .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** Peter Palfrader | : :' : The universal http://www.palfrader.org/ | `. `' Operating System | `-http://www.debian.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100505191052.gu16...@anguilla.noreply.org
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
Peter Palfrader wea...@debian.org writes: On Wed, 05 May 2010, Arto Jantunen wrote: Seriously speaking, to me it seems very clear that non-free firmware will not be present on official installer images. Then again, the installer team has made it very easy to inject firmware during installation on machines where it's needed. Have they? It's the most painful thing every time I need to setup a new box. It's the most time consuming part too, easily doubling or trippling the time, if not worse, it takes to install a new system. Most if the time it involves re-creating installer media because debian can't be arsed to be useful by default. Is that what you mean with very easy? I understood that current Debian Installer takes firmware during install via usb sticks, floppies, etc. If this is not the case, I have understood incorrectly and take back my comment on it being made easy. I am fairly sure that the feature has been there for a while now, and creating new installer images for firmware needs should no longer be needed. -- Arto Jantunen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87mxwe5ez5@viiru.iki.fi
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Wed, May 05, 2010 at 09:57:46PM +0300, Arto Jantunen wrote: Hmm. Is the release already so close that it's time to have this flamewar again? Shouldn't we wait a month or two for maximal effect? I think the earlier we have this discussion the better. Seriously speaking, to me it seems very clear that non-free firmware will not be present on official installer images. Then again, the installer team has made it very easy to inject firmware during installation on machines where it's needed. I've heard people complain about how the (lenny?) installer works, and I didn't have the need to install on a machine that requires firmware yet myself. I think the issues I've heard were: - You need 2 installation media. Which also makes an unattended installation harder or impossible. - It didn't find the firmware or didn't look at the usb disk that was plugged in or simular. Maybe it would be helpful if something from the installer team could describe how it's supposed to work now and what the state is. I think their clearly will be a need to create media which has the firmware on it. The current manual points to an unofficial part of cdimage.debian.org to get the latest firmware and says that some might be missing and that you'd need to get it from non-free without much instructions on what to do with it. Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100505194511.ga18...@roeckx.be
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
Kurt Roeckx k...@roeckx.be writes: I've heard people complain about how the (lenny?) installer works, and I didn't have the need to install on a machine that requires firmware yet myself. I think the issues I've heard were: - You need 2 installation media. Which also makes an unattended installation harder or impossible. FAI should have no trouble doing unattended installation if you choose to add the non-free repositories to the sources.list file and install the firmware in the installation NFS root. (I realize that FAI is overkill for a lot of sites.) -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87ocgu5d1v@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On 05/05/2010 09:24 PM, Arto Jantunen wrote: I understood that current Debian Installer takes firmware during install via usb sticks, floppies, etc. If this is not the case, I have understood incorrectly and take back my comment on it being made easy. I am fairly sure that the feature has been there for a while now, and creating new installer images for firmware needs should no longer be needed. This is still an annoying thing to handle. If you install machines at different locations regulary, this firmware crap is nothing but a pita. I can't see a reason why we should not be able to ship cd-images in non-free. If debian does not do so officially, I might provide them somewhere. -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprints: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79 ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4be1e29f.9000...@bzed.de
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Wed, May 05, 2010 at 11:26:55PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: This is still an annoying thing to handle. If you install machines at different locations regulary, this firmware crap is nothing but a pita. I can't see a reason why we should not be able to ship cd-images in non-free. If debian does not do so officially, I might provide them somewhere. Problem is, non-free is not part of Debian. By shipping cd images only in non-free, we'd basically have no cd images in Debian. By shipping images in both main and non-free, we'd be duplicating lots of effort, disk space, bandwidth to mirrors, etc. Personally, if a given piece of firmware is legal to ship and required to make hardware work, I'm in favor of making it available by default (possibly with some form of notice informing the user of this). I acknowledge, however, that there is an argument that this position is not in the spirit of the social contract and DFSG. This has been debated extensively already. noah signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
Le mercredi 05 mai 2010 à 23:26 +0200, Bernd Zeimetz a écrit : This is still an annoying thing to handle. If you install machines at different locations regulary, this firmware crap is nothing but a pita. I can't see a reason why we should not be able to ship cd-images in non-free. Indeed, there is no reason. There is broad consensus that this is fine as long as we keep shipping firmware-free images in main. If debian does not do so officially, I might provide them somewhere. Maybe the reason why Debian doesn’t do so “officially” is that people prefer to whine and initiate stupid votes rather than sticking their fingers out of their arses and just do it? If there really was a need for it, such images would already exist. If you have a need for it, then just do it. And since you’re a DD you can do so “officially”. Cheers, -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “If you behave this way because you are blackmailed by someone, `-[…] I will see what I can do for you.” -- Jörg Schilling signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Kurt Roeckx k...@roeckx.be wrote: So I was wondering what the state is of everything, and what issues people will run into, specially when installing. The lenny installer is fine, I haven't tested the squeeze installer yet though. I'm also wondering what people think about adding some firmware to our official installation media. I don't think it is needed. I recently had to install Debian lenny on a HP ProLiant machine, which required bnx2 firmware for the network controller. Just downloaded the firmware .deb from packages.d.o, stuck it on a FAT32 formatted USB stick and everything worked fine. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/l2ye13a36b31005051815mafad40d8ga46b6f9e4a0ab...@mail.gmail.com
