Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 03:12:35PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: Dear Kurt, On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 09:17:27AM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote: If on -vote the required amount of seconds have been reached, I will announce that the GR process has been sarted on debian-devel-announce. This is now the case for one GR and one GR amendement. There may be further amendments. Would you be prepared to post an announcement to d-d-a? This isn't something that's happened in the past, what's announced is a) that a GR process has started, b) the various CfVs, and c) the results. I'd be wary about spamming d-d-a every time there's a new amendment/adjustment to an amendment etc, they can get quite... commplex. See https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/03/msg00159.html for example. Additionally, it's considerable work to set up a vote page on www.d.o - the current one took me about two hours. It would be good if there was a way of avoiding having to do that just to announce something to d-d-a. What's the actual issue that we're trying to solve here? eg: why aren't people subscribing to -vote? Would a -vote-discuss or -vote-announce make more sense? Neil -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 03:46:57PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 03:30:54PM +0100, Neil McGovern wrote: This isn't something that's happened in the past, what's announced is a) that a GR process has started, b) the various CfVs, and c) the results. I'd be wary about spamming d-d-a every time there's a new amendment/adjustment to an amendment etc Sorry for not being clear. I wasn't advocating for that; I want what you describe as a) above. Ok, cool, that's what happens now[0]. What /doesn't/ happen is that a d-d-a post is sent out when an initial proposal is sent, but hasn't had sufficient seconds to be accepted as a valid GR. What's the actual issue that we're trying to solve here? eg: why aren't people subscribing to -vote? Would a -vote-discuss or -vote-announce make more sense? DDs missing a GR by not reading -vote. Since we mandate subscription to d-d-a, I felt that a GR process has started announcement to that list was the cleanest solution. Sure - that makes sense when we're got a vote coming up. That doesn't solve the problem of people being unable to get enough seconds, but I'm also not sure if it's the secretary's job to help with that. :) Neil [0] And since 2009. It didn't happen for one in 2008, because I forgot to do it as there was 7 amendments and I was also trying to get a release out. -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 03:12:35PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: Dear Kurt, On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 09:17:27AM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote: If on -vote the required amount of seconds have been reached, I will announce that the GR process has been sarted on debian-devel-announce. This is now the case for one GR and one GR amendement. There may be further amendments. Would you be prepared to post an announcement to d-d-a? As you probably saw by now, I've asked Neil to do this. Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141017165505.ga8...@roeckx.be
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 03:49:28PM +1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote: On 14/10/2014 11:58 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: Isn't the point of posting on debian-devel-announce to increase the visibility and liklihood of seconds in the first place? Not if you want to help avoid the GR having a chance to get up. Why would someone author a GR and want to avoid it being seconded? What would that achieve? Please keep your conspiracy theories elsewhere. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141015191819.ga...@chew.redmars.org
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 10:32:35PM +0300, Lars Wirzenius wrote: On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:30:43PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: I think we should clearly indicate where GRs should be announced. (Should, I suppose I'm arguing, not must). I think we don't need to name the place in the constitution. I don't think we need a hard rule about where the announcement happens. I do, however, think it would be good to announce all proposed GRs on debian-devel-announce and debian-vote, with Reply-To to debian-vote. This would ensure all DDs hear about every proposed GR. There's not enough of them to cause a lot of d-d-a traffic. If the proposer of a GR forgets to do that, the secretary or some other DD could do it for them. If on -vote the required amount of seconds have been reached, I will announce that the GR process has been sarted on debian-devel-announce. Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141014071727.ga5...@roeckx.be
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 09:17:27AM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote: If on -vote the required amount of seconds have been reached, I will announce that the GR process has been sarted on debian-devel-announce. Sure, and that's excellent. It would, though, in my opinion to be good to announce the proposed GRs even before the required number of seconds is reached, to make it easier for those interested in the topic to hear about them. That should, of course, be done by those proposing the GR, and debian-devel-announce is, I think, already an acceptable place for them. -- http://gtdfh.branchable.com/ -- GTD for hackers http://obnam.org/ -- HAVE YOU BACKED UP TODAY? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141014075419.gg21...@exolobe1.liw.fi
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
Le mardi, 14 octobre 2014, 10.54:19 Lars Wirzenius a écrit : On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 09:17:27AM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote: If on -vote the required amount of seconds have been reached, I will announce that the GR process has been sarted on debian-devel-announce. Sure, and that's excellent. It would, though, in my opinion to be good to announce the proposed GRs even before the required number of seconds is reached I disagree, because I think that the current value for K is sufficiently low to make it part of the proponent's responsibility to make sure that his proposal gets enough seconds. Again, we're currently talking about finding _5_ other Debian members. -vote is the canonical public way, asking per private mail or IRC or on team-specific lists are other possible ways, but I don't think it's reasonable to automatically make use of the only pseudo-mandatory (devref §4.1.2) list for GR proposals. A message to debian-devel-announce once the ballots are seconded enough must stay though (as devref §3.2.3 underlines). Cheers, OdyX -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/6545796.C1tePvsYep@gyllingar
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
Kurt Roeckx wrote: On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 10:32:35PM +0300, Lars Wirzenius wrote: On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:30:43PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: I think we should clearly indicate where GRs should be announced. (Should, I suppose I'm arguing, not must). I think we don't need to name the place in the constitution. I don't think we need a hard rule about where the announcement happens. I do, however, think it would be good to announce all proposed GRs on debian-devel-announce and debian-vote, with Reply-To to debian-vote. This would ensure all DDs hear about every proposed GR. There's not enough of them to cause a lot of d-d-a traffic. If the proposer of a GR forgets to do that, the secretary or some other DD could do it for them. If on -vote the required amount of seconds have been reached, I will announce that the GR process has been sarted on debian-devel-announce. Isn't the point of posting on debian-devel-announce to increase the visibility and liklihood of seconds in the first place? -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543d1dee.6050...@meetinghouse.net
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
Le Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 08:58:22AM -0400, Miles Fidelman a écrit : Isn't the point of posting on debian-devel-announce to increase the visibility and liklihood of seconds in the first place? Hi Miles, according to https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/, the purpose of that list is the Announcements of development issues like policy changes, important release issues c. Its purpose is not to boost visibility of topics, in contrary it is the place to display only topics that were already the most visible from the start. I find it quite ironical that, after devastating the signal-noise ratio on debian-devel and debian-project, some supporters of a init GR regret that they missed the information, which whas cross-posted on this list. Cheers, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141014131424.gb5...@falafel.plessy.net
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 11:58 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: Isn't the point of posting on debian-devel-announce to increase the visibility and liklihood of seconds in the first place? Not if you want to help avoid the GR having a chance to get up. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ9/NQACgkQqBZry7fv4vuzBQEAs4D+06U5TxeboYetfUfV9QiQ BMafptcHlYvoHPehOJABANoxmwqVNtqdWbdDvxXh0Y0a0K8iZTLLuH+7A4bemzrl =cmIS -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543dfcd8.6030...@affinityvision.com.au
The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
Hi -project, On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 06:33:49PM +0200, Matthias Klumpp wrote: You do understand that we have procedured at Debian to handle stuff like GR proposals, right? And that procedure involves posting to debian-vote, so doing that was the right thing to do. Whilst researching for a reply to a different post in this thread on -user (the thread sadly spans at least three lists), I realised that the constitution doesn't say where GRs should be announced, and I couldn't find any advice on the subject in a scan over policy, either. I think we should clearly indicate where GRs should be announced. (Should, I suppose I'm arguing, not must). In this particular case I saw the GR thread on -project, rather than -vote, iirc. Unless I'm mistaken, a change to Constitution (to include a reference to where GRs should be posted) would need to be achieved via GR. Alternatively, we could document it as a should in policy, although there may not yet be an appropriate section to do so. Does anyone have strong feelings on this? -- Jonathan Dowland -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141013183043.ga29...@chew.redmars.org
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
Hi, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org writes: On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 06:33:49PM +0200, Matthias Klumpp wrote: You do understand that we have procedured at Debian to handle stuff like GR proposals, right? And that procedure involves posting to debian-vote, so doing that was the right thing to do. Whilst researching for a reply to a different post in this thread on -user (the thread sadly spans at least three lists), I realised that the constitution doesn't say where GRs should be announced, and I couldn't find any advice on the subject in a scan over policy, either. I think we should clearly indicate where GRs should be announced. (Should, I suppose I'm arguing, not must). It's documented on vote.debian.org[1]. [1] https://www.debian.org/vote/howto_proposal Unless I'm mistaken, a change to Constitution (to include a reference to where GRs should be posted) would need to be achieved via GR. Alternatively, we could document it as a should in policy, although there may not yet be an appropriate section to do so. Does anyone have strong feelings on this? I think both would be the wrong place: having technical details (such as mailing list names) in the Constitution makes it hard to change them. And Policy documents packaging standards for the distribution, not procedural details for the project. Ansgar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87vbnnn7hk@deep-thought.43-1.org
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:30:43PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: I think we should clearly indicate where GRs should be announced. (Should, I suppose I'm arguing, not must). I think we don't need to name the place in the constitution. I don't think we need a hard rule about where the announcement happens. I do, however, think it would be good to announce all proposed GRs on debian-devel-announce and debian-vote, with Reply-To to debian-vote. This would ensure all DDs hear about every proposed GR. There's not enough of them to cause a lot of d-d-a traffic. If the proposer of a GR forgets to do that, the secretary or some other DD could do it for them. -- http://gtdfh.branchable.com/ -- GTD for hackers http://obnam.org/ -- HAVE YOU BACKED UP TODAY? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141013193235.gf21...@exolobe1.liw.fi
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:30:43PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: Whilst researching for a reply to a different post in this thread on -user (the thread sadly spans at least three lists), I realised that the constitution doesn't say where GRs should be announced, and I couldn't find any advice on the subject in a scan over policy, either. FWIW, Constitution §4.2.5 says: 5. Proposals, sponsors, amendments, calls for votes and other formal actions are made by announcement on a publicly-readable electronic mailing list designated by the Project Leader's Delegate(s); any Developer may post there. Cheers, -- Stefano Zacchiroli . . . . . . . z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o Former Debian Project Leader . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o . « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club » signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:30:43PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: Whilst researching for a reply to a different post in this thread on -user (the thread sadly spans at least three lists), I realised that the constitution doesn't say where GRs should be announced, and I couldn't find any advice on the subject in a scan over policy, either. FWIW, Constitution §4.2.5 says: 5. Proposals, sponsors, amendments, calls for votes and other formal actions are made by announcement on a publicly-readable electronic mailing list designated by the Project Leader's Delegate(s); any Developer may post there. Cheers, Ahhh... this is like RFPs and legal announcements - as long as you post it somewhere, you're covered. As opposed to requiring posting in a highly visible place. -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543c320c.2020...@meetinghouse.net
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
Le lundi, 13 octobre 2014, 16.11:56 Miles Fidelman a écrit : Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: FWIW, Constitution §4.2.5 says: (…) Ahhh... this is like RFPs and legal announcements - as long as you post it somewhere, you're covered. As opposed to requiring posting in a highly visible place. Wrong. That's detailed there: https://www.debian.org/vote/howto_proposal Which says: The following procedures have been instituted regarding general resolution proposals and sponsoring. The electronic mailing list designated is debian- v...@lists.debian.org. This is the authoritative source of the full text of all resolutions, as well as the supporting arguments and other material. Proposals, or sponsorship motions shall not be recognized if sent to any other mailing list. The page is easy to find from debian.org = Developers'Corner = Voting information = How To Submit a Proposal. I don't think we have a documentation problem here. Cheers, OdyX -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2644371.u0TgOhpbrd@gyllingar
Re: The proper place to announce GRs (was Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?))
On 2014-10-13 21:11, Miles Fidelman wrote: Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:30:43PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: Whilst researching for a reply to a different post in this thread on -user (the thread sadly spans at least three lists), I realised that the constitution doesn't say where GRs should be announced, and I couldn't find any advice on the subject in a scan over policy, either. FWIW, Constitution §4.2.5 says: 5. Proposals, sponsors, amendments, calls for votes and other formal actions are made by announcement on a publicly-readable electronic mailing list designated by the Project Leader's Delegate(s); any Developer may post there. Cheers, Ahhh... this is like RFPs and legal announcements - as long as you post it somewhere, you're covered. As opposed to requiring posting in a highly visible place. No, that's entirely appropriate language for the constitution, which is *very* difficult and time-consuming to change. It's up to the Leader's Delegate to have a policy about how and where GRs are announced, and that policy is very clearly stated at https://www.debian.org/vote/howto_proposal. (Even if the constitution were easy and quick to change, that wouldn't mean it should be done trivially or lightly, of course.) -- Jonathan Wiltshire j...@debian.org Debian Developer http://people.debian.org/~jmw 4096R: 0xD3524C51 / 0A55 B7C5 1223 3942 86EC 74C3 5394 479D D352 4C51 directhex i have six years of solaris sysadmin experience, from 8-10. i am well qualified to say it is made from bonghits layered on top of bonghits -- Jonathan Wiltshire j...@debian.org Debian Developer http://people.debian.org/~jmw 4096R: 0xD3524C51 / 0A55 B7C5 1223 3942 86EC 74C3 5394 479D D352 4C51 directhex i have six years of solaris sysadmin experience, from 8-10. i am well qualified to say it is made from bonghits layered on top of bonghits -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/d085787e369dc7ff87adfcfca06d0...@hogwarts.powdarrmonkey.net
