Re: What do you expect from the DPL?
Anthony Towns writes (Re: What do you expect from the DPL?): To my mind, that's because there's a lack of obvious alternatives on how to do ambitious Debian reform plans -- or in particular establishing the moral and practical support for them. So in the same sense that the DPL is the final answer for trying to resolve disputes when everything else you can think of fails, it's also the answer for trying to make big changes when you run out of other idas. It seems to me that the problem is that - the workload is too big for one person (although Zack did an astonishing job) - too many of the tasks involve exercise of implicit personal authority, so that delegation is not an effective tool I don't have an easy answer to this. It has often been suggested to replace the DPL with a board, but with Debian's current approaches to collective decsionmaking the board would want to argue internally about each decision. The result would probably be more work per board member per decision than the current DPL has work to do per decision! They are all fine and well of course, but DPL time will in the end have to be split among implementing those plans and tending to often unpredictable day by day duties, with the latter often dominating the DPL agenda (IME). I haven't seen any followup from the tech ctte on some of the disucssion from Dec about improving the way the ctte approaches requests, cf https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/12/msg00050.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/12/msg00069.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/12/msg00075.html Improvements there might help with the DPL's workload, in so far as that involves dealing with arguments over technical things. I have a very different view of the TC to Anthony (and to those otehrs who have suggested that the TC should be less quick to decide, or less definite). My view is probably best summarised here: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/12/msg00098.html And exemplified by my very trenchant comments (un-rebutted!) here: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=766708#305 Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21730.11212.829216.241...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
Re: What do you expect from the DPL?
Just few random notes... On Fri, Feb 13, 2015, at 04:08, Paul Wise wrote: - Mediation regarding social and technical problems The former seems like the responsibility of Debian as a whole and the latter is the responsibility of the CTTE. I have several occasions in my mind when I would be happy if someone has stepped in and helped with mediation. For my own sake, and for the problem sake. I view CTTE as a heavy hitter and DPL could use more soft approach before the parties approach CTTE. Also sometimes there is a feud between developer and delegate. This is also area where DPL could step in and help with the outcome. I can provide specific examples off-list. - Be aware of everything that goes on with Debian. E.g. I have the feeling some people expect the DPL to read all the Debian mailing lists. That is simply not feasible, even though the amount of discussion that goes on in Debian feels like it is going down over time. Just the sole idea of reading all the mailing lists gives me shivers. O. -- Ondřej Surý ond...@sury.org Knot DNS (https://www.knot-dns.cz/) – a high-performance DNS server -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1424115598.3334844.228244697.336a5...@webmail.messagingengine.com
Re: What do you expect from the DPL?
On Feb 16 2015, Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk wrote: I haven't seen any followup from the tech ctte on some of the disucssion from Dec about improving the way the ctte approaches requests, cf https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/12/msg00050.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/12/msg00069.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/12/msg00075.html Improvements there might help with the DPL's workload, in so far as that involves dealing with arguments over technical things. I have a very different view of the TC to Anthony (and to those otehrs who have suggested that the TC should be less quick to decide, or less definite). My view is probably best summarised here: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/12/msg00098.html And exemplified by my very trenchant comments (un-rebutted!) here: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=766708#305 I'm a little confused by this: | IMO the committee has utterly failed to discharge its responsibility | here. If I had still been on the committee I would have pushed for a | swift vote to overrule. This bug was filed on Oct 25. The init system GR voting ended on Nov 18th, and I think you resigned a few days later. It seems to me there was at least some time available to push for a vote... On the other hand, I can't help but see an eery similary to #741573, where one maintainers actions are also blocking other people's hard work. In that bug, however, you seemto the main force preventing a swift vote. Best, -Nikolaus -- GPG encrypted emails preferred. Key id: 0xD113FCAC3C4E599F Fingerprint: ED31 791B 2C5C 1613 AF38 8B8A D113 FCAC 3C4E 599F »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.« -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87h9ulpvfv@thinkpad.rath.org
Re: What do you expect from the DPL?
On 16/02/15 at 20:39 +0100, Ondřej Surý wrote: Just few random notes... On Fri, Feb 13, 2015, at 04:08, Paul Wise wrote: - Mediation regarding social and technical problems The former seems like the responsibility of Debian as a whole and the latter is the responsibility of the CTTE. I have several occasions in my mind when I would be happy if someone has stepped in and helped with mediation. For my own sake, and for the problem sake. Note that it can also have very negative effects if someone jumps in and starts mediating when none of the parties involved have actually asked for mediation. So, in general, if you think mediation from someone would be helpful, it's better to be explicit and request it. I view CTTE as a heavy hitter and DPL could use more soft approach before the parties approach CTTE. Having the DPL and the CTTE involved at the same time is a bit problematic, as they are defined as two very separate and independent bodies in the constitution. In the case of issues with CTTE member(s), I think that a better first step is to approach another CTTE member, or the CTTE chairman, and then if this fails, to approach the DPL about it. Also sometimes there is a feud between developer and delegate. This is also area where DPL could step in and help with the outcome. Sure. Lucas signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What do you expect from the DPL?
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 02:41:18PM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:07:08AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: My own view on the original question (What are you expected the DPL to do?) is that the main thing the DPL must absolutely do is being a good garbage collector (I think the original naming comes from Zack). Possibly. I think I actually used decision garbage collector, but the notion is exactly the one you explained. I wonder if that couldn't be framed a bit more positively. I reread HPMOR recently, and I wonder if the notion of heroic responsibility mightn't be applicable: You could call it heroic responsibility, maybe, Harry Potter said. Not like the usual sort. It means that whatever happens, no matter what, it's always your fault. Even if you tell Professor McGonagall, she's not responsible for what happens, you are. Following the school rules isn't an excuse, someone else being in charge isn't an excuse, even trying your best isn't an excuse. There just aren't any excuses, you've got to get the job done no matter what. -- http://hpmor.com/chapter/75 FWIW, that aspect of the DPL job seems to be frequently overlooked in DPL candidate platforms, which often tend to focus on ambitious Debian reform plans. To my mind, that's because there's a lack of obvious alternatives on how to do ambitious Debian reform plans -- or in particular establishing the moral and practical support for them. So in the same sense that the DPL is the final answer for trying to resolve disputes when everything else you can think of fails, it's also the answer for trying to make big changes when you run out of other idas. They are all fine and well of course, but DPL time will in the end have to be split among implementing those plans and tending to often unpredictable day by day duties, with the latter often dominating the DPL agenda (IME). I haven't seen any followup from the tech ctte on some of the disucssion from Dec about improving the way the ctte approaches requests, cf https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/12/msg00050.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/12/msg00069.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/12/msg00075.html Improvements there might help with the DPL's workload, in so far as that involves dealing with arguments over technical things. Cheers, aj -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150216035014.ga9...@master.debian.org
Re: What do you expect from the DPL?
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 02:41:18PM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:07:08AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: My own view on the original question (What are you expected the DPL to do?) is that the main thing the DPL must absolutely do is being a good garbage collector (I think the original naming comes from Zack). Possibly. I think I actually used decision garbage collector, but the notion is exactly the one you explained. FWIW, that aspect of the DPL job seems to be frequently overlooked in DPL candidate platforms, which often tend to focus on ambitious Debian reform plans. They are all fine and well of course, but DPL time will in the end have to be split among implementing those plans and tending to often unpredictable day by day duties, with the latter often dominating the DPL agenda (IME). Yeah, that was my experience too. I'd offer as advice to any DPL candidate: don't try to do everything at once, as that leads to burnout. I think personally that I did spend too much effort up-front on the teams survey in my first term, and that ate a massive number of hours. What takes time day in, day out, is the misc mediation and discussion that people will expect you to help out with, and random folks will contact you from time to time to ask for help with all kinds of stuff. The more difficult part of this is that it'll often be happening in hours that don't suit at all - people pop on irc at the worst times... :-) -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com The two hard things in computing: * naming things * cache invalidation * off-by-one errors -- Stig Sandbeck Mathisen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150214135759.gz8...@einval.com
Re: What do you expect from the DPL?
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:07:08AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: My own view on the original question (What are you expected the DPL to do?) is that the main thing the DPL must absolutely do is being a good garbage collector (I think the original naming comes from Zack). Possibly. I think I actually used decision garbage collector, but the notion is exactly the one you explained. FWIW, that aspect of the DPL job seems to be frequently overlooked in DPL candidate platforms, which often tend to focus on ambitious Debian reform plans. They are all fine and well of course, but DPL time will in the end have to be split among implementing those plans and tending to often unpredictable day by day duties, with the latter often dominating the DPL agenda (IME). Cheers. -- Stefano Zacchiroli . . . . . . . z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o Former Debian Project Leader . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o . « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club » signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What do you expect from the DPL?
Hi, On 13/02/15 at 11:08 +0800, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 4:57 AM, Ana Guerrero Lopez wrote: Lucas sent an email asking people to encourage their 'dream DPL' [1]. I have already encouraged a few people in the last weeks, but when discussing with them, they all tell me very different things about the DPL role. When I asked: What are you expecting the DPL to do?, I got a bunch of different replies: The DPL role is defined in the constitution. https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution#item-5 Please note that it's very well possible that the constitution is wrong, or needs to be changed, as Debian changed a lot since that document was originally written. For example: The Project Leader should not use the Leadership position to promote their own personal views. This has been violated by several DPLs (me included), who pushed forward things they cared about, or discussed them in interviews, without necessarily first ensuring that it matched the project's consensus. My own view on the original question (What are you expected the DPL to do?) is that the main thing the DPL must absolutely do is being a good garbage collector (I think the original naming comes from Zack). There are lots of areas of Debian that suddenly get broken, often in unexpected ways, or where there's no-one clearly responsible. And usually, the DPL ends up being the ultimate fallback for those things. This is also what makes the role particularly hard: the DPL usually get involved when it's (too) late to find easy solutions, or in areas that are not covered by the typical expertise of a DD. It's also the most crucial part of the role because often, there are people blocked by the lack of progress, being deeply frustrated about their Debian involvement due to that. Of course, when there's a recurring flow of requests in the same area of expertise that end up in the DPL's hands, it makes sense to create a specific team to work on those issues. That's what was done recently with the trademark team, and the auditors team (to improve interactions with TOs, deal with reimbursement requests, etc.). But creating teams out of nothing is also not particularly easy, especially in non-technical areas. Then, with this 'Garbage collector' / 'Facilitator' part is covered, there are of course lots of other things the DPL can do using the remaining time, but, IMHO, they mostly fall in the 'Could do' rather than 'Must do' category. Also, as Paul pointed out, we have teams covering most of the areas listed in Ana's email, and it is not healthy when the DPL starts overstepping on those teams' work. Commenting on some of the list from Ana's email: - Set technical goals for the project That seems like the responsibility of Debian as a whole. That's indeed something that is the responsibility of everybody, and of no-one in particular. In the past, we had 'release goals'. But when I worked on the release team delegation, it was really hard to include something about release goals (see thread at http://deb.li/3D9kV). Do we need an entity in Debian that decides on the technical agenda? (That's probably a good question for DPL candidates :P) - Be aware of everything that goes on with Debian. E.g. I have the feeling some people expect the DPL to read all the Debian mailing lists. That is simply not feasible, even though the amount of discussion that goes on in Debian feels like it is going down over time. Interestingly, that is part of the constitution, though: The Project Leader should attempt to participate in discussions amongst the Developers in a helpful way which seeks to bring the discussion to bear on the key issues at hand. My own take on this is that various other people have been doing that very well (probably better than what I would have done), so I've generally decided to focus on things where the DPL was the bottleneck, rather than things that are already well covered by others. - Debian representation: give talks on behalf of Debian in important conferences or congresses. Also give interviews. - Handle the relationship with the open source ecosystem I would add here: - Handle the relationship with the Free Software ecosystem There isn't anything in the constitution about interacting with external entities. As the Leader, the DPL is probably better known outside Debian than most Debian members due to external press coverage etc so it makes sense that they would be contacted more often about being a speaker. I think that Debian as a whole should be responsible for interacting with external orgs, giving talks/interviews etc. We do have a number of folks who have volunteered to be speakers at least: https://www.debian.org/events/speakers Regarding talks, my experience is that most event organizers are not ready to cover travel costs. Which turns the question into: Given the expected impact of the talk, is it worth spending Debian money to cover
Re: What do you expect from the DPL?
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 11:08:44AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 4:57 AM, Ana Guerrero Lopez wrote: Lucas sent an email asking people to encourage their 'dream DPL' [1]. I have already encouraged a few people in the last weeks, but when discussing with them, they all tell me very different things about the DPL role. When I asked: What are you expecting the DPL to do?, I got a bunch of different replies: The DPL role is defined in the constitution. https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution#item-5 While it is true that the role is more or less defined by the constitution by listing its Powers, the role has evolved de-facto into something else, but it is not clear nor universally agreed on. I wonder if the replies you got are coloured by what past DPLs have ended up doing as a result of deficiencies in what Debian as a whole was capable of doing at the time. Someone had to do it and no-one else was doing it so the DPL got to do it. Not only because what the DPL ended up doing, also take a look at past DPL platforms and read what prospective candidates were expecting to do. [...] This is, globally, people are expecting the DPL to do all of the above and maybe more. I think it's clear this is NOT humanly possible. What are the alternatives? Should we redefine the role of the DPL? Should we maybe split the role of the DPL in a few elected roles? Should we discuss (again) the possibility of replacing the DPL for a board? Sometimes I have felt like the DPL election was a popularity contest, and that's probably not what it should be. I think the DPL role has expanded beyond what was it initially defined as, due to various factors. Probably we just need to re-focus on the initial definition and create new teams for the things that the DPL has expanded to in the past. Exactly, things have changed through the years, you think the DPL role should re-focus on what it was initially. Others like me, think the role wasn't very clear to start with, other might argue the role needs to be redefined to something new or switching to something completely different. In a few weeks, we'll be again in campaign period, people will start making questions to the candidates about things some candidates feel have nothing to do with becoming DPL, and we'll start having again the same discussion about what the DPL do or should do. Ana -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150213233453.ga7...@pryan.ekaia.org
What do you expect from the DPL?
Hi, Lucas sent an email asking people to encourage their 'dream DPL' [1]. I have already encouraged a few people in the last weeks, but when discussing with them, they all tell me very different things about the DPL role. When I asked: What are you expecting the DPL to do?, I got a bunch of different replies: - Set technical goals for the project - Mediation regarding social and technical problems - Be aware of everything that goes on with Debian. E.g. I have the feeling some people expect the DPL to read all the Debian mailing lists. - As a continuation of the above point, take action in mailing list threads when they go bad/wrong. - Debian representation: give talks on behalf of Debian in important conferences or congresses. Also give interviews. - Handle the relationship with the open source ecosystem - Handle complex issues: e.g. new licenses in the archive, trademark, etc. - Handle Debian money and oversee the Debian Trusted Organisations. - Make sure delegations are updated and and teams keep functioning properly. - Publicity and advertisement for Debian. E.g. mention *everything important* that's going on in the bits from DPL or equivalent. This is, globally, people are expecting the DPL to do all of the above and maybe more. I think it's clear this is NOT humanly possible. What are the alternatives? Should we redefine the role of the DPL? Should we maybe split the role of the DPL in a few elected roles? Should we discuss (again) the possibility of replacing the DPL for a board? Sometimes I have felt like the DPL election was a popularity contest, and that's probably not what it should be. For the record, I'm not interested in running for DPL. I would like to be able to encourage people to run without the feeling I'm asking them to throw themselves under a never ending shitload of work. Ana [1]: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2015/02/msg1.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150212205704.ga22...@pryan.ekaia.org
Re: What do you expect from the DPL?
[ just pointing to some related work / previous discussion on this topic ] On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 09:57:04PM +0100, Ana Guerrero Lopez wrote: This is, globally, people are expecting the DPL to do all of the above and maybe more. I think it's clear this is NOT humanly possible. What are the alternatives? Should we redefine the role of the DPL? Should we maybe split the role of the DPL in a few elected roles? Should we discuss (again) the possibility of replacing the DPL for a board? Sometimes I have felt like the DPL election was a popularity contest, and that's probably not what it should be. I've in the past analyzed this problem, and presented some thoughts in my bits from the DPL talk at DebConf12. Slides are at https://upsilon.cc/~zack/talks/2012/20120708-dc12-dpl.pdf (second part of the deck, challenges ahead). The talk video is at http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2012/debconf12/low/881_Bits_from_the_DPL.ogv ; the relevant part starts around minute 29:30. I haven't watched the video, but IIRC the board idea has raised quite a bit of interest in the audience, and spawned several questions during the question time. Thanks Ana for raising this very important topic! Hope the above helps, -- Stefano Zacchiroli . . . . . . . z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o Former Debian Project Leader . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o . « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club » signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What do you expect from the DPL?
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 4:57 AM, Ana Guerrero Lopez wrote: Lucas sent an email asking people to encourage their 'dream DPL' [1]. I have already encouraged a few people in the last weeks, but when discussing with them, they all tell me very different things about the DPL role. When I asked: What are you expecting the DPL to do?, I got a bunch of different replies: The DPL role is defined in the constitution. https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution#item-5 I wonder if the replies you got are coloured by what past DPLs have ended up doing as a result of deficiencies in what Debian as a whole was capable of doing at the time. Someone had to do it and no-one else was doing it so the DPL got to do it. - Set technical goals for the project That seems like the responsibility of Debian as a whole. - Mediation regarding social and technical problems The former seems like the responsibility of Debian as a whole and the latter is the responsibility of the CTTE. - Be aware of everything that goes on with Debian. E.g. I have the feeling some people expect the DPL to read all the Debian mailing lists. That is simply not feasible, even though the amount of discussion that goes on in Debian feels like it is going down over time. - As a continuation of the above point, take action in mailing list threads when they go bad/wrong. That seems like the responsibility of listmasters, thread participants and Debian contributors in general. - Debian representation: give talks on behalf of Debian in important conferences or congresses. Also give interviews. - Handle the relationship with the open source ecosystem I would add here: - Handle the relationship with the Free Software ecosystem There isn't anything in the constitution about interacting with external entities. As the Leader, the DPL is probably better known outside Debian than most Debian members due to external press coverage etc so it makes sense that they would be contacted more often about being a speaker. I think that Debian as a whole should be responsible for interacting with external orgs, giving talks/interviews etc. We do have a number of folks who have volunteered to be speakers at least: https://www.debian.org/events/speakers - Handle complex issues: e.g. new licenses in the archive, trademark, etc. New licenses seems like a role for ftpmaster. Trademarks come under the property held in trust DPL work item in the constitution. Other complex issues should be handled by the Debian contributors with the most interest/experience in handling them. If that is the DPL, great! - Handle Debian money and oversee the Debian Trusted Organisations. This is in the constitution. - Make sure delegations are updated and and teams keep functioning properly. The first part is in the constitution, the latter seems like the responsibility of the teams themselves and Debian as a whole. - Publicity and advertisement for Debian. E.g. mention *everything important* that's going on in the bits from DPL or equivalent. That seems like the role of the publicity and press teams - who need more folks to join them, hint hint :) This is, globally, people are expecting the DPL to do all of the above and maybe more. I think it's clear this is NOT humanly possible. What are the alternatives? Should we redefine the role of the DPL? Should we maybe split the role of the DPL in a few elected roles? Should we discuss (again) the possibility of replacing the DPL for a board? Sometimes I have felt like the DPL election was a popularity contest, and that's probably not what it should be. I think the DPL role has expanded beyond what was it initially defined as, due to various factors. Probably we just need to re-focus on the initial definition and create new teams for the things that the DPL has expanded to in the past. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAKTje6ELi9h2CW6KEauFB5Nv2h==dxubab8bzbpivrv94hg...@mail.gmail.com
