Re: XFCE is slow on Acer One netbook - suggestions?

[Helmut Wollmersdorfer]

Am 17.10.2013 um 13:21 schrieb Joel Rees :

> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Helmut Wollmersdorfer
>  wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> my netbook is a ~5 years old Acer One with Atom processor, 1 GB memory and 
>> 150 GB HDD.

[…]

> 
> Have you checked the hardware acceleration settings?
> 
> I had a slowness problem that inspired this thread:
> 
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/07/msg00597.html
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/07/msg00880.html

It "feels" like a graphics performance problem. But it's not the same chipset 
as yours. It's Intel Mobile 945GSE Express.

But maybe I will try more in this direction. Thanks for the hint.

Helmut Wollmersdorfer


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Re: Oddity in synaptic 0.75.13 (Wheezy)

[Tom H]

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Beco  wrote:
> On 17 October 2013 19:24, Cybe R. Wizard  wrote:
>>
>> Using synaptic 0.75.13 in Wheezy under the menu item, "Settings,
>> Repositories," the updates tab lists, "Notify me of a new Ubuntu
>> version."
>>
>> What?  Is someone developing for Debian but promoting Ubuntu?  Did
>> Ubuntu push this version upstream?
>>
>> Inquiring mind and all that.
>>
>> Cybe R. Wizard
>> --
>> Nice computers don't go down.
>> Larry Niven, Steven Barnes
>> "The Barsoom Project"
>
> I read this and could believe, so I went to synaptic to see. It's there.
>
> Debian trade-mark is a very strong, and brings with it so many
> attributes conquered over time. We must be careful to not let this
> happen.
>
> I understand people must be developing for ubuntu more than for
> debian, and that sometimes software goes the other way around.
>
> This collaboration between distros is very important. But keeping
> Debian Debian is of utter importance.
>
> It's a marketing issue, so I cc'd the debian-publicity mailing list to
> alert the problem.
>
> My best,
> Beco.
>
>
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Re: Oddity in synaptic 0.75.13 (Wheezy)

[Tom H]

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Beco  wrote:
> On 17 October 2013 19:24, Cybe R. Wizard  wrote:
>>
>> Using synaptic 0.75.13 in Wheezy under the menu item, "Settings,
>> Repositories," the updates tab lists, "Notify me of a new Ubuntu
>> version."
>>
>> What?  Is someone developing for Debian but promoting Ubuntu?  Did
>> Ubuntu push this version upstream?
>
> I read this and could believe, so I went to synaptic to see. It's there.
>
> Debian trade-mark is a very strong, and brings with it so many
> attributes conquered over time. We must be careful to not let this
> happen.
>
> I understand people must be developing for ubuntu more than for
> debian, and that sometimes software goes the other way around.
>
> This collaboration between distros is very important. But keeping
> Debian Debian is of utter importance.
>
> It's a marketing issue, so I cc'd the debian-publicity mailing list to
> alert the problem.

(Apologies for the earlier blank email. Hit "Send" rather than "..."
to expand the text...)

LMAO! What drama!

The developer must've grabbed an Ubuntu patch and not cleaned up that part.

It's just a question of filing a bug report to remove this.


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Re: XFCE is slow on Acer One netbook - suggestions?

[Helmut Wollmersdorfer]

Am 17.10.2013 um 16:45 schrieb Joe :

> There is mate, allegedly a fork of Gnome2, I haven't tried it. I do use
> LXDE on my sid desktop and also on my Aspire One netbook. I have the
> one with the slightly smaller case and SSD, which has an unbelievably
> slow write speed. I usually use it with an external USB hard drive,
> which has sid/LXDE. It seems quick enough for my purposes, but they may
> be different from yours.

Mine are development centered (Perl programming) plus associated tasks - 
editing, testing, web-browsing, PDF-reading.


> My desktop does not show a highlighted tab in gedit, which may be
> either because it needs Gnome, or maybe a different window manager.
> Both LXDE and XFCE use Openbox, but of course there are many others. I
> can't remember what Gnome2 used, maybe Metacity. A heavier window
> manager will of course slow things down, but almost certainly not as
> much as Gnome3.

Thanks for the tip. I gave LXDE a try and is feeling a lot faster.

Some features like the taskbar are better than in XFCE. But the 
power-management seems unstable. 

I got the "suspend on lid close" and other behaviour working, but now it's 
again ignorant.


Helmut Wollmersdorfer


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Tom H]

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Steffen Dettmer
 wrote:
>
> I'd like to configure multiple IP addresses to a VLAN tagged interface. I 
> tried
>
> auto eth3.107
>   iface eth3.77 inet static
>   address 10.0.5.15
>   netmask 255.255.255.0
>   iface eth3.77 inet static
>   address 10.0.5.16
>   netmask 255.255.255.0
>
> but I get an error message that ifup tries to configure the VLAN
> interface twice, but the addresses are set.
>
> When I remove the second "iface eth3.77 inet static" line, which
> should be correct according to my understanding of "man interfaces",
> where it is not forbidding to pass multiple "address" directives in a
> stanza, I get an error about unexpected "address" line and the
> addresses are not set.

I assume that you mean "auto eth3.77" not "auto eth3.107".

Otherwise

auto eth3.107

iface eth3.77 inet static
address 10.0.5.15
netmask 255.255.255.0

iface eth3.77 inet static
address 10.0.5.16
netmask 255.255.255.0

works for me in the form of

allow-auto eth0.9

iface eth0.9 inet static
address 192.168.1.119
netmask 255.255.255.0
gateway 192.168.1.1

iface eth0.9 inet static
address 192.168.1.199
netmask 255.255.255.0

You definitely need an "iface eth0.9 inet static" for each ip address
assignment.


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Re: endianness (was Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude))

[Jonathan Dowland]

> On 18 Oct 2013, at 05:51, Joe Pfeiffer  wrote:
> 
> What's wrong with htonl and other similar functions/macroes?

They are pretty good when they fit what you want to do, but there are holes: eg 
convert big endian source to host layout. Note that the glibc implementation 
uses cpp conditionals so the previously noted drawbacks apply. There's also the 
endian.h routines but there are portability issues to address when using them.

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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Tom H]

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 5:39 PM, Bob Proulx  wrote:
> Steffen Dettmer wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to configure multiple IP addresses to a VLAN tagged
>> interface. I tried
>>
>> auto eth3.107
>>   iface eth3.77 inet static
>>   address 10.0.5.15
>>   netmask 255.255.255.0
>>   iface eth3.77 inet static
>>   address 10.0.5.16
>>   netmask 255.255.255.0
>
> At which time it appears more obvious that while you have an "auto"
> line for eth3.107 you do not have one for eth3.77.  Do you mean this?
>
>   auto eth3.77
>   iface eth3.77 inet static
> address 10.0.5.15
> netmask 255.255.255.0
>   iface eth3.77 inet static
> address 10.0.5.16
> netmask 255.255.255.0
>
> Of course I know nothing about vlan configuration so I am likely wrong
> here.  I just know that visually it doesn't match.  However all of the
> docs I see just now suggest using a bridge.  Perhaps something like this.
>
>   auto eth0
>   allow-hotplug eth0
>   iface eth0 inet static
>   address 10.0.5.15
>   netmask 255.255.255.0
>   iface eth0 inet static
>   address 10.0.5.16
>   netmask 255.255.255.0
>   iface eth0.77 inet manual
>   auto br0.77
>   iface br0.77 inet manual
>   bridge_ports eth0.77
>   bridge_fd 0
>   bridge_maxwait 0
>
> But again, I just did that blind from the online docs.  I am not a
> vlan expert.  Feel free to tell me I am wrong and do not know
> anything.  :-)

You're bridging in strange/incorrect way. :(

It's br0.77 that should have an ip address assigned and the physical
devices should have "inet manual" only.


>> but I get an error message that ifup tries to configure the VLAN
>> interface twice, but the addresses are set.
>>
>> When I remove the second "iface eth3.77 inet static" line, which
>> should be correct according to my understanding of "man interfaces",
>> where it is not forbidding to pass multiple "address" directives in a
>> stanza, I get an error about unexpected "address" line and the
>> addresses are not set.
>
> Configuring multiple IP addresses on interfaces like that is new in
> recent versions of ifupdown.  Whether it works or not depends upon
> the version of the program.  Previously it was necessary to use
> different tagged interfaces or to use up/down commands to add
> additional ip addresses.

Oops! I should've said that too in my earlier email!


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Re: Oddity in synaptic 0.75.13 (Wheezy)

[Beco]

On 18 October 2013 04:26, Tom H  wrote:

>
> (Apologies for the earlier blank email. Hit "Send" rather than "..."
> to expand the text...)
>
>
;)


> LMAO! What drama!
>
> The developer must've grabbed an Ubuntu patch and not cleaned up that part.
>
> It's just a question of filing a bug report to remove this.
>


I agree its too much a drama. Yep, its something simple indeed! But still,
we must take care. Debian is a very good "product".

Regards,
Beco.



-- 
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A.I. researcher

"Sometimes the heart sees what is invisible to the eye." (H. Jackson Brown
Jr.)

Re: linux-image-3.10-3-amd64 unbootable: /dev/disk/by-uuid not created

[Jesse Molina]

As previously noted, this was a bug in mdadm and has already been fixed 
in the current version.  Just update your mdadm package and then 
re-build your initramfs file with the "update-initramfs" command.  Be 
sure to read the manpage for that command.  Probably "update-initramfs 
-u" alone will fix your problem.


http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=726237

This problem never had anything to do with the linux-image package. It 
was actually just a bad mdadm udev rule file.  It just happened to me 
when I updated my kernel, since it generated a new initramfs file to go 
along with it.




On 10/17/13 7:54 AM, Jogi Hofmüller wrote:

Dear all,

We ran into the same (or a similar) problem yesterday and could not fix
it until now.  The machine in question was setup using wheezy and then
upgraded to jessie.  Since the only kernel 3.2 will boot, anything else
fails.

The setup is as follows:

* one raid10
* lvm lvs for / /boot

/etc/mdadm/mdadm.conf is present in the initramfs.

As reported by others the boot process drops into initramfs shell
complaining about not finding /dev/vg0/rootfs.  The array is never
assembled, hence no pv, vg, lv ...

We tried linux-image-3.10-2-amd64 and linux-image-3.10-3-amd64.  mdadm
is 3.2.5-5.

Cheers!

PS:  Please include my address in your reply since I am not subscribed
to the list.  Thanx.



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Re: Oddity in synaptic 0.75.13 (Wheezy)

[Jonathan Dowland]

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=691681


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Re: Passing "nowait" command line option to "dhclient"

[Steffen Dettmer]

Hi,

thanks for your quick and helpful reply!

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 11:09 PM, Bob Proulx  wrote:
> Steffen Dettmer wrote:
> Your indention is terrible!

Sorry, I'll improve.

>> I think I have to pass the option "-nw" to dhclient, but how do I do
>> that correctly?
>
> If you want dhclient not to wait then change the "auto" to
> "allow-hotplug". Using "auto" means bring the interface up at system
> boot time. It runs the /etc/init.d/* scripts.  This is a synchronous
> operation.  "allow-hotplug" means bring the interface up when the
> interface is detected.  That is the new dynamic event driven way and
> runs asynchronously.

This is interesting. I like to have the interface bought up at
system boot time, so "auto" seemed correct. "allow-hotplug" is
supposed to bring the interface up when the interface is
detected (also told by the Debian Reference), but apparently that
is not true, my Ethernet interfaces are detected very early, I
think already during initramfs when there is no
/etc/network/interfaces, but interestingly "allow-hotplug" is
working (maybe by emulating some "cold-plug"),
EXCEPT a VLAN tag is used.

If a VLAN tag is used, the interface "ethX.ttt" is not
automatically started ("ifup ethX.ttt" is needed).

>> I noticed that DHCP leases are kept as long as the lease is valid when
>> moving from one LAN to another, not sure if this behavior is correct.
>
> It is required.  It is possible for clients to actively release the
> lease.  But if a client crashes then the dhcp server never gets an
> indication and therefore must keep the lease active for the full time
> to live.

Yes, of course, but I meant a different case.
When unplugging a device from one switch (one LAN) and plugging
it to another switch (different LAN), or moving it from one
switch port to another when both forward by applying different
VLAN tags, the client uses a lease that is not valid for its
"new" LAN, so a new DHCP request could be suited. Laptops usually
work this way (restarting DHCP when link gets up). But I was told
this is no important case.

>> How to configure DHCP correctly without causing boot delays?
>
> Use "allow-hotplug".

Thanks for this tip, this helps for non-VLAN interface, a big
step forward, thank you!

About the VLAN issue, does anyone knows how to configure DHCP on
VLAN tagged interfaces correctly without causing boot delays?

Steffen


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Recovering my USB-Key content

[Jean-Marc]

Hi the list,

The partition table of my USB-key has gone and I got some read-error 
messages.


I recovered the files stored on it using photorec but it is a little 
bit a raw-recover splitted into generic directories with generic names.


I tried then testdisk but, except the fact that testdisk told me the 
key is almost full, it cannot get anything back, no part table, no 
backup.


I will make a raw copy using dd to keep a backup.

But afterward, I do not know what to do (I still have no time to 
search for a solution).

The only thing coming n mind is to recreate a new part table.

Any idea, suggestion, commands+parms are welcome.

Jean-Marc


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Re: dpkg-query - package "un"packed, no version ???

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 03 sep 13, 01:28:35, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On 9/3/13, Curt  wrote:
> >
> > Where or how do you get "no package description" for those packages?
> > What command are you using?
> 
> :)
> 
> With my custom supa-dupa package searcher and shower script :)
> 
> Now, my script was using "dpkg -W $pkg-name" and grepping for "no
> packages found" to test whether the package was
> installed/not-installed. This fails in the situation of vim-athena
> (and similar situations of course), so my show_installed_package was
> being incorrectly called (should have been
> show__not_installed_package).
 
Well, it fails because you are not asking the correct question. If you 
want dpkg to tell you if a package is installed or not then ask that 
instead:

$ dpkg-query -W -f='${Package}\t${Status}\n' vim-athena
vim-athena  unknown ok not-installed

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: su - root

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 03 sep 13, 03:09:46, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Can anyone explain to me the message here "Added user root.":
> 
> $ su - root
> Password:
> Added user root.
> ~#

Doesn't happen here.
 
> Did not happen with "sudo su -". What does it mean??

BTW, you don't need 'su -' with sudo, just use -i.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Steffen Dettmer]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Tom H  wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Steffen Dettmer
>  wrote:
>> but I get an error message that ifup tries to configure the VLAN
>> interface twice, but the addresses are set.
> I assume that you mean "auto eth3.77" not "auto eth3.107".

Yes, of course, sorry for the typo. I C&P wrongly (I did too many
tests :)).

> works for me in the form of
>
> allow-auto eth0.9
>
> iface eth0.9 inet static
> address 192.168.1.119
> netmask 255.255.255.0
> gateway 192.168.1.1
>
> iface eth0.9 inet static
> address 192.168.1.199
> netmask 255.255.255.0

I used literally this (1:1 copied), but I get the same message I
had during my tests, about already existing interfaces.
Unfortunately they are not stored in any /var/log/* file, so I
hopefully retype correctly:

[] Configuring network interfaces...Set name-type for VLAN subsystem. Should
 be visible in /proc/net/vlan/config
ERROR: trying to add VLAN #9 to IF -:eth0-  error: File exists
Set name-type for VLAN subsystem. Should be visible in /proc/net/vlan/config:
ERROR: trying to add VLAN #9 to IF -:eth0-  error: File exists
done.

Beside this looks as vconfig messages are unexpected (they
distrub the screen layout), the big "ERROR" messages look really bad.

Regards,
Steffen


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Steffen Dettmer]

Hi!

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 11:39 PM, Bob Proulx  wrote:
> Steffen Dettmer wrote:
> However all of the docs I see just now suggest using a bridge.

There are docs recommending to take the burden of kernel software
briding to add an alias IP?!

> Configuring multiple IP addresses on interfaces like that is new in
> recent versions of ifupdown.

Wow, this is surprising! I considered it an old basic classic standard feature.

> Whether it works or not depends upon the version of the program.

Amazing.

> Previously it was necessary to use different tagged interfaces
> or to use up/down commands to add additional ip addresses.

Ahh, you mean I could try the old "eth0:0" approach? But I guess it
won't be compatible with VLANs.

>> First I thought "ifup" would be a shell script, but apparently
>> ifupdown uses source code generation to generate Perl code from some
>> "noweb" code and uses the generated Perl code to generate C code which
>> then is compiled using a generated Makefile -- all this is not easy to
>> read / understand, so I decided to write a mail here hoping someone
>> can enlighten me :)
>
> It depends upon the version of ifupdown.  Previously it used a
> literate programming technique with TeX embedded documentation and C
> code using "notangle" and .nw files.

yeah, I see you also took a look :)

>   apt-cache show noweb

Wikipedia tells:
noweb is a literate programming tool, created in 1989–1999 by Norman Ramsey.

But it seems to be maintained.

> Recent versions have been converted to plain C.  The changelog for
> version 0.7.44 says:
> * Convert from noweb to plain C

Good to know :) But I think it is not yet released in stable.

Regards,
Steffen


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Steffen Dettmer]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Tom H  wrote:
>>   auto eth0
>>   iface eth0 inet static
>>   address 10.0.5.16
>>   netmask 255.255.255.0
>>   iface eth0.77 inet manual
>>   auto br0.77
>>   iface br0.77 inet manual
>>   bridge_ports eth0.77
>>   bridge_fd 0
>>   bridge_maxwait 0
>>
> You're bridging in strange/incorrect way. :(
>
> It's br0.77 that should have an ip address assigned and the physical
> devices should have "inet manual" only.

The "physical" interface eth0.77 has no IP in the example above,
but is it possible to bridge VLAN devices?
I had assumed someone has to bridge e.g. eth0 and use the VLAN
tags only on top of br0.

Steffen


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Re: linux-image-3.10-3-amd64 unbootable: /dev/disk/by-uuid not created

[Jogi Hofmüller]

Hi jesse,

Am 2013-10-18 10:35, schrieb Jesse Molina:
> 
> As previously noted, this was a bug in mdadm and has already been fixed
> in the current version.  Just update your mdadm package and then
> re-build your initramfs file with the "update-initramfs" command.  Be
> sure to read the manpage for that command.  Probably "update-initramfs
> -u" alone will fix your problem.
> 
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=726237

Thanks for the hint.  Read the bugreport before and figured it is not
relevant since we are using mdadm 3.2.5 which is supposed to be working.
 Still, did the upgrade to 3.3-2:  no change.

BTW:  all this happens on an Intel Serverbarebone (RZ1208GZ4GC) with
SATA drives on C600/X79 series chipset SATA controler.

A similar machine with Series/C200 Series Chipset SATA controler boots
just fine with the same setup (linux-image-3.10-3-amd64 and mdadm 3.2.5).

Does anyone have experience with Intel Serverbarebones?  I figure it has
something to do with the SATA controler ...

Cheers,
-- 
j.hofmüller

mur.sat -- a space art projecthttp://sat.mur.at/



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Re: what's up with the apt-get

[Linux-Fan]

On 10/18/2013 04:03 AM, don magnify wrote:
> no vim candidate?!
> 
> isn't this it:
> http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/vim
> 
> what exactly needs to be in sources.list?
> 
> i got this installing from iso. initially the cdrom part was in but since i
> don't have a cdrom i got rid of it...
> 
> #
> 
> # deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 7.1.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 DVD Binary-1
> 20130615-23:06]/ wheezy contrib main
> 
> #deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 7.1.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 DVD Binary-1
> 20130615-23:06]/ wheezy contrib main
> 
> 
> #deb http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main contrib
> #deb-src http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main contrib
> 
> # wheezy-updates, previously known as 'volatile'
> # A network mirror was not selected during install.  The following entries
> # are provided as examples, but you should amend them as appropriate
> # for your mirror of choice.
> #
> deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-updates main contrib
> # deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-updates main contrib

You are missing the main repository, only "wheezy-updates" is enabled.
Try to replace your entries with this:

deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main contrib
deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-updates main contrib
deb http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main contrib

HTH
Linux-Fan.

-- 
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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 5:33 AM, Steffen Dettmer
 wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Tom H  wrote:
>>
>> works for me in the form of
>>
>> allow-auto eth0.9
>>
>> iface eth0.9 inet static
>> address 192.168.1.119
>> netmask 255.255.255.0
>> gateway 192.168.1.1
>>
>> iface eth0.9 inet static
>> address 192.168.1.199
>> netmask 255.255.255.0
>
> I used literally this (1:1 copied), but I get the same message I
> had during my tests, about already existing interfaces.
> Unfortunately they are not stored in any /var/log/* file, so I
> hopefully retype correctly:
>
> [] Configuring network interfaces...Set name-type for VLAN subsystem. 
> Should
>  be visible in /proc/net/vlan/config
> ERROR: trying to add VLAN #9 to IF -:eth0-  error: File exists
> Set name-type for VLAN subsystem. Should be visible in /proc/net/vlan/config:
> ERROR: trying to add VLAN #9 to IF -:eth0-  error: File exists
> done.
>
> Beside this looks as vconfig messages are unexpected (they
> distrub the screen layout), the big "ERROR" messages look really bad.

So Bob must be right about your ifupdown version not using iproute
and, as he suggested, you're going to have to use the equivalent of:

allow-auto eth0.9
iface eth0.9 inet static
address 192.168.1.119
netmask 255.255.255.0
gateway 192.168.1.1
post-up ip address add 192.168.1.199/24 dev eth0.9


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Re: XFCE is slow on Acer One netbook - suggestions?

[berenger . morel]

Le 18.10.2013 09:30, Helmut Wollmersdorfer a écrit :

Am 17.10.2013 um 16:45 schrieb Joe :

There is mate, allegedly a fork of Gnome2, I haven't tried it. I do 
use

LXDE on my sid desktop and also on my Aspire One netbook. I have the
one with the slightly smaller case and SSD, which has an 
unbelievably

slow write speed. I usually use it with an external USB hard drive,
which has sid/LXDE. It seems quick enough for my purposes, but they 
may

be different from yours.


Mine are development centered (Perl programming) plus associated
tasks - editing, testing, web-browsing, PDF-reading.


Then, may I suggest you to try to use some tiling-window manager? For 
programming, they are awesome. The only drawback is that things might 
look less beautiful, and you will need to learn how they work (which can 
be very fast, depending on the twm you chose).
Their main advantage is that they allow you to grab the mouse less 
often than classic wm, but they are also very lightweight on both CPU 
usage and RAM occupation.



Both LXDE and XFCE use Openbox, but of course there are many others.


XFCE uses it's own wm: xfwm4. Of course, you can use openbox with XFCE, 
but it is not the default choice.



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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Steffen Dettmer]

Hi,

thanks again for your fast help.

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Tom H  wrote:
> So Bob must be right about your ifupdown version not using iproute

I'm using Wheezy with ifup version 0.7.8, I think this is the
latest officially released (aka "the best") one?

> and, as he suggested, you're going to have to use the equivalent of:
>
> allow-auto eth0.9
> iface eth0.9 inet static
> address 192.168.1.119
> netmask 255.255.255.0
> gateway 192.168.1.1
> post-up ip address add 192.168.1.199/24 dev eth0.9

I took this 1:1 resulting in the following /etc/network/interfaces file:

--->8===
auto lo
iface lo inet loopback

allow-auto eth0.9
iface eth0.9 inet static
  address 192.168.1.119
  netmask 255.255.255.0
  gateway 192.168.1.1
  post-up ip address add 192.168.1.199/24 dev eth0.9
===8<---

Now I get "ERROR: trying to add VLAN #9 to IF -:eth0-  error: File exists"
"only" once, but still.

Is the example above correct? Does it work for you? Could your
machine be boot so quickly that it might not be visible without
adding --noclear to /etc/inittab for tty1 getty?

Regards,
Steffen


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 9:49 AM, Steffen Dettmer
 wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Tom H  wrote:
>>>
>>>   auto eth0
>>>   iface eth0 inet static
>>>   address 10.0.5.16
>>>   netmask 255.255.255.0
>>>   iface eth0.77 inet manual
>>>   auto br0.77
>>>   iface br0.77 inet manual
>>>   bridge_ports eth0.77
>>>   bridge_fd 0
>>>   bridge_maxwait 0
>>
>> You're bridging in strange/incorrect way. :(
>>
>> It's br0.77 that should have an ip address assigned and the physical
>> devices should have "inet manual" only.
>
> The "physical" interface eth0.77 has no IP in the example above,
> but is it possible to bridge VLAN devices?
> I had assumed someone has to bridge e.g. eth0 and use the VLAN
> tags only on top of br0.

You can assign a VLAN to a bridge (or whatever the proper expression is!).

I don't know how it's done with "/etc/network/interfaces" but I do
know how to do so with RHEL ifcfg files so I can extrapolate
_something_ theoretical.

But the use-case that I have for that is different and I'm not too
sure how to transpose to yours, if it's at all possible.

The use-case is for connecting VMs on one host to different VLANs
(note: _different_ VLANs). So VM0's tap0 is added to br0.I, VM1's tap1
is added to br0.J, ethX (or bondX if you have bonds) is assigned to
VLANs x and y and added to br0.I and br0.J respectively, and these
bridges are assigned ip addresses.

So trying to mimick ifcfg files from memory (and keeping in mind that
in ifcfg files I'd have the equivalent of "allow-auto eth0",
"allow-auto eth0.I", "allow-auto eth0.J" too but it doesn't seem to be
needed in "/etc/network/interfaces"):

iface eth0 inet manual

iface eth0.I inet manual

iface eth0.J inet manual

allow-auto br0.I
iface br0.I inet static
bridge_ports eth0.I tap0
address ...
netmask ...
gateway ...


allow-auto br0.J
iface br0.J inet static
bridge_ports eth0.J tap1
address ...
netmask ...
gateway ...


So, in your case, assuming that you want a bridge:

iface eth0 inet manual

iface eth0.I inet manual

allow-auto br0.I
iface br0.I inet static
bridge_ports eth0.I
address ...
netmask ...
gateway ...

post-up ip address add ... dev br0.I


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Chris Davies]

Tom H  wrote:
> iface eth3.77 inet static
> address 10.0.5.15

> iface eth3.77 inet static
> address 10.0.5.16

The Debian documentation at
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch05.en.html states
categorically, « Do not define duplicates of the "iface" stanza for a
network interface in "/etc/network/interfaces" ».

Is that only in relation to mapping, or a general warning?

Chris


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Miles Fidelman]

Steffen Dettmer wrote:

Hi,

I'd like to configure multiple IP addresses to a VLAN tagged interface. I tried

auto eth3.107
   iface eth3.77 inet static
   address 10.0.5.15
   netmask 255.255.255.0
   iface eth3.77 inet static
   address 10.0.5.16
   netmask 255.255.255.0

but I get an error message that ifup tries to configure the VLAN
interface twice, but the addresses are set.

for what it's worth, my (working, for years) /etc/network/interfaces 
file looks like this:


auto lo eth0 eth0:1 eth0:2 eth0:3 eth0:4 eth0:5 eth0:6 eth0:7 eth0:8 
eth0:9 eth0

:10 eth0:11 eth0:12 eth0:13 eth0:14 eth0:15

iface eth0 inet static
address 207.154.13.48
netmask 255.255.255.224
network 207.154.13.32
broadcast 207.154.13.63
gateway 207.154.13.33
# dns-* options are implemented by the resolvconf package, if installed
dns-nameservers 209.59.0.18 209.59.0.2
dns-search neighborhoods.net

iface eth0:1 inet static
address 207.154.13.49
netmask 255.255.255.224
broadcast 207.154.13.63

iface eth0:2 inet static
address 207.154.13.50
netmask 255.255.255.224
broadcast 207.154.13.63



--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[berenger . morel]

Le 18.10.2013 04:32, Miles Fidelman a écrit :

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:





So, what you name an OS is only drivers+kernel? If so, then ok. 
But some people consider that it includes various other tools which 
does not require hardware accesses. I spoke about graphical 
applications, and you disagree. Matter of opinion, or maybe I did 
not used the good ones, I do not know.
So, what about dpkg in debian? Is it a part of the OS? Is not it a 
ring 3 program? As for tar or shell?




Boy do you like to raise issues that go into semantic grey areas 
:-)


Not specially, but, to say that C has been made to build OSes only, 
you then have to determine what is an OS to make the previous 
statement useful. For that, I simply searched 3 different sources on 
the web, and all of them said that simple applications are part of the 
OS. Applications like file browsers and terminal emulators.
Without using the same words for the same concepts, we can never 
understand the other :)


I'm pretty sure that C was NOT written to build operating systems -
though it's been used for that (notably Unix).


I never said I agreed that C was designed to build OS only. Having to 
manage memory does not make, in my opinion, a language made to write 
OSes.
I never took a look, but are linux or unix fully written in C? No piece 
of asm? I would not bet too much on that.


It was simply to argue that, even if it was true, then it does not 
avoid it to be good to write applications, since, in more than one 
people's opinion, OSes includes applications.


I agree, it is part of programmer's job. But building a bad SQL 
request is easy, and it can make an application unusable in real 
conditions when it worked fine while programming and testing.


Sure, but writing bad code is pretty easy too :-)


I actually have less problems to write code that I can maintain when I 
do not have to use SQL queries and stored procedures.
I simply hate their syntax. Of course, I am able to write some simple 
code for sql-based DBs, but building and maintaining complex ones is not 
as easy as building a complex C++ module. Or as an asm or C, or even 
perl. Of course, it is only my own opinion.



I'd simply make the observation that most SQL queries are generated
on the fly, by code


It is not what I have seen, but I do not have enough experience to 
consider what I have seen as the truth. But I will anyway allow myself a 
comment here, if some people wants to create a new language: please, 
please, please, do not do something like powerbuilder again! This crap 
can mix pb and sql code in the same source file and recognize their 
syntax. It will work. But will be horrible to maintain, so please, do 
not do that! (this language have really hurt me... and not only because 
of that)


But now, are most programmers paid by societies with hundreds of 
programmers?


(and whether you actually mean "developer" vs. "programmer")


I do not see the difference between those words. Could you give me 
the nuances please? I still have a lot to learn to understand English 
for precise terms.


The terminology is pretty imprecise to begin with, and probably
varies by country and industry.  The general pecking order, as I've
experienced it is (particularly in the US military and government
systems environments, as well as the telecom. industry):

Systems Engineer:  Essentially chief engineer for a project.
(Alternate term: Systems Architect)
- responsible for the big picture
- translate from requirements to concept-of-operations and systems
architecture
- hardware/software tradeoffs and other major technical decisions

Hardware Engineers (typically Electrical Engineers): Design and build
hardware (including computers, but also comms. networks, interfaces,
etc.)

Software Engineers: Engineers responsible for designing and building
software.  Expected to have a serious engineering degree (sometimes 
an

EE, often a Computer Science or Computer Engineering degree) and
experience.  Expected to solve hard problems, design algorithms, and
so forth.  Also have specific training in the discipline of software
engineering.  People who's resume says "software engineer" have
typically worked on a range of applications - the discipline is about
problem solving with computers.

Developer:  Vague term, generally applied to people who do the same
kinds of work as software engineers.  But doesn't carry the
connotation of an EE or CS degree.  Tends to be commonly used in
product development environments.  In my experience, a lot of
developers start out writing code in their own field of expertise
(doctors writing medical applications, musicians writing music
software, and so forth).  People with "developer" on their resume
often have specialties associated with the term - e.g., "game
developer" - emphasizing an area of specialization.

Programmer:  A term I've never actually understood.  Basic use seems
to be "someone who knows how to program" or "someone who programs for
liv

web-gui for scripts

[Pol Hallen]

Howdy :-)

I searching for what is the way to create a gui interface for my scripts 
("security web-gui").


So, a script could be something like this (execute by root user):

#!/bin/bash
# pr.sh
/etc/postfix reload

So, I must create a gui do "reload postfix service"

I can write a php script like this:

$output";
?>

But I'm afraid about security issue I've also ssl on apache web.

What is the best way to create a "web security gui"? Using post/put 
apache commands? using php code?


Thanks for help!
--
Pol


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Steffen Dettmer]

Hi,

just in case someone still reading my boring DHCP client attempts, to
complete the topic here my findings about behavior at shutdown. Even
with simply /etc/network/interfaces configuration:

  allow-hotplug eth3.77
  iface eth3.77 inet dhcp

and manually starting "ifup eth3.77" after boot, on shutdown there are
error messages from dhclient. According to syslog dhclient is not
killed but aborts with:

  dhclient: receive_packet failed on eth3.77: Network is down

and very soon afterwards:

  dhclient: Bind socket to interface: No such device

which leads to error messages to the console as well. I tried to
analyze with strace, but of course output is quite complex.  dhclient
-v -r -pf [...] is called to release a lease, if any. Although pidfile
is specified, dhclient does not write to it. A bit later the pid from
the pid file is killed, this is not synchronized with waiting for the
started dhclient to finish nor for the killed dhclient to terminate.

I think this forms a race condition that on some systems may not lead
to an error.

Am I simply too picky when not wanting error messages on Console?

Interestingly ifdown kills pid from pidfile without further checking,
which IMHO also is wrong. For hotplug-interfaces it could be a very
old PID in the file and the number could have been reused by another
process (isn't it a bit unexpected to find such things in base
services like ifup that are supposed to be rock-solid?).

Steffen

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Steffen Dettmer
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> thanks again for your fast help.
>
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Tom H  wrote:
>> So Bob must be right about your ifupdown version not using iproute
>
> I'm using Wheezy with ifup version 0.7.8, I think this is the
> latest officially released (aka "the best") one?
>
>> and, as he suggested, you're going to have to use the equivalent of:
>>
>> allow-auto eth0.9
>> iface eth0.9 inet static
>> address 192.168.1.119
>> netmask 255.255.255.0
>> gateway 192.168.1.1
>> post-up ip address add 192.168.1.199/24 dev eth0.9
>
> I took this 1:1 resulting in the following /etc/network/interfaces file:
>
> --->8===
> auto lo
> iface lo inet loopback
>
> allow-auto eth0.9
> iface eth0.9 inet static
>   address 192.168.1.119
>   netmask 255.255.255.0
>   gateway 192.168.1.1
>   post-up ip address add 192.168.1.199/24 dev eth0.9
> ===8<---
>
> Now I get "ERROR: trying to add VLAN #9 to IF -:eth0-  error: File exists"
> "only" once, but still.
>
> Is the example above correct? Does it work for you? Could your
> machine be boot so quickly that it might not be visible without
> adding --noclear to /etc/inittab for tty1 getty?
>
> Regards,
> Steffen


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Re: web-gui for scripts

[Lars Noodén]

On 18.10.2013 15:35, Pol Hallen wrote:
> Howdy :-)
> 
> I searching for what is the way to create a gui interface for my scripts
> ("security web-gui").
> 
> So, a script could be something like this (execute by root user):
> 
> #!/bin/bash
> # pr.sh
> /etc/postfix reload
> 
> So, I must create a gui do "reload postfix service"

/bin/sh will be a little less load on the system, not that it matters.
I would put the script in /usr/local/sbin or something like that, owned
by root and not writable by anyone else.  Then add a line in
/etc/sudoers that allows www-data to run just that script and without
any options.

 %www-data ALL=(ALL) NOPASSWD: /usr/local/sbin/postfix_reloader ""

The "" is important because it disallows any other parameters, not that
your script should use them.

> I can write a php script like this:
> 
>  $output = shell_exec('/root/bin/.pr.sh');
> echo "$output";
> ?>
> 
> But I'm afraid about security issue I've also ssl on apache web.
> 
> What is the best way to create a "web security gui"? Using post/put
> apache commands? using php code?
> 
> Thanks for help!

The easiest thing is to make sure there no user-submitted data can be
passed on to the system and no system output can be passed on directly
to the user.  Use if-then statements, case statements, and even
scrubbing via regex if it is necessary to pass data.  Also, if these are
maintenance scripts, you might want to put them behind TLS and a password
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/howto/auth.html

Ignore guides that tell you to put authentication in .htpassword.  That
advice is for people without access to the web server's configuration file.

Regards,
/Lars


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Re: web-gui for scripts

[Philipp Born]

Hey,

is it "something like this" or is it "this"? If it's "this", I would 
suggest you to install a software like Webmin or so.


Greetings.

On 18.10.2013 14:35, Pol Hallen wrote:

Howdy :-)

I searching for what is the way to create a gui interface for my scripts
("security web-gui").

So, a script could be something like this (execute by root user):

#!/bin/bash
# pr.sh
/etc/postfix reload

So, I must create a gui do "reload postfix service"

I can write a php script like this:

$output";
?>

But I'm afraid about security issue I've also ssl on apache web.

What is the best way to create a "web security gui"? Using post/put
apache commands? using php code?

Thanks for help!



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Re: Oddity in synaptic 0.75.13 (Wheezy)

[Jonathan Dowland]

Good news: this bug was fixed for sid on Aug 23
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=666869

It's actually in "software-properties-gtk", which is started by
synaptic when you click on "Settings → Repositories"

Checking whether this is something that could be considered for
backporting to a stable point release.


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Steffen Dettmer
 wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Tom H  wrote:


> thanks again for your fast help.

You're welcome.


>> So Bob must be right about your ifupdown version not using iproute
>
> I'm using Wheezy with ifup version 0.7.8, I think this is the
> latest officially released (aka "the best") one?

Strange. I was under the impression that Debian 7's ifupdown is using
iproute but you had a vconfig error in an earlier email - and the
"trying to add" error below also looks like an ioctl error rather than
a netlink one.


>> and, as he suggested, you're going to have to use the equivalent of:
>>
>> allow-auto eth0.9
>> iface eth0.9 inet static
>> address 192.168.1.119
>> netmask 255.255.255.0
>> gateway 192.168.1.1
>> post-up ip address add 192.168.1.199/24 dev eth0.9
>
> I took this 1:1 resulting in the following /etc/network/interfaces file:
>
> --->8===
> auto lo
> iface lo inet loopback
>
> allow-auto eth0.9
> iface eth0.9 inet static
>   address 192.168.1.119
>   netmask 255.255.255.0
>   gateway 192.168.1.1
>   post-up ip address add 192.168.1.199/24 dev eth0.9
> ===8<---
>
> Now I get "ERROR: trying to add VLAN #9 to IF -:eth0-  error: File exists"
> "only" once, but still.

Does anyone know whether adding an ip address with ip to an interface
configured with ifconfig isn't possible? Probably not.

So the post-up should be "post-up ifconfig eth0.9:0 192.168.1.199
netmask 255.255.255.0 up", although I can't remember ever coming
across such an interface (or know whether it's possible to do
something like this with net-tools!).

Maybe you could try to do what you want using net-tools manually to
remove any ifupdown bug from the mix.

You'd need to take down your network and only have "lo" defined in
"/etc/network/interfaces" (or reboot with just "lo" defined). Then

ifconfig eth0 0.0.0.0 netmask 255.255.255.255 up
vconfig set_name_type DEV_PLUS_VID_NO_PAD
vconfig add eth0 9
ifconfig eth0.9 192.168.1.119 netmask 255.255.255.0 up
ifconfig eth0.9:0 192.168.1.199 netmask 255.255.255.0 up

to bring them up

and

ifconfig eth0.9:0 down
ifconfig eth0.9 down
vconfig rem eth0.9
ifconfig eth0 down

to take them down.

You could try to do the same with iproute but your system seems to be
a net-tools one, weirdly.


> Is the example above correct? Does it work for you? Could your
> machine be boot so quickly that it might not be visible without
> adding --noclear to /etc/inittab for tty1 getty?

I tested once. I just took down the network so that only "lo" was
defined and then brought it up with what I'd posted.


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Chris Davies  wrote:
> Tom H  wrote:
>> iface eth3.77 inet static
>> address 10.0.5.15
>
>> iface eth3.77 inet static
>> address 10.0.5.16
>
> The Debian documentation at
> http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch05.en.html states
> categorically, « Do not define duplicates of the "iface" stanza for a
> network interface in "/etc/network/interfaces" ».

Someone pointed this out the last time that ifupdown's new use of
iproute was discussed on this list and Bob P. pointed out that the
documentation hadn't yet caught up with that.

I'm pretty sure that the last time (six months ago?) Bob linked to a
Debian wiki page (or I googled my way to one) that used multiple iface
declarations for the same nic (I've also used multiple declarations).


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Miles Fidelman
 wrote:
> Steffen Dettmer wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to configure multiple IP addresses to a VLAN tagged interface. I
>> tried
>>
>> auto eth3.107
>>iface eth3.77 inet static
>>address 10.0.5.15
>>netmask 255.255.255.0
>>iface eth3.77 inet static
>>address 10.0.5.16
>>netmask 255.255.255.0
>>
>> but I get an error message that ifup tries to configure the VLAN
>> interface twice, but the addresses are set.
>
> for what it's worth, my (working, for years) /etc/network/interfaces file
> looks like this:
>
> auto lo eth0 eth0:1 eth0:2 eth0:3 eth0:4 eth0:5 eth0:6 eth0:7 eth0:8 eth0:9
> eth0
> :10 eth0:11 eth0:12 eth0:13 eth0:14 eth0:15
>
> iface eth0 inet static
> address 207.154.13.48
> netmask 255.255.255.224
> network 207.154.13.32
> broadcast 207.154.13.63
> gateway 207.154.13.33
> # dns-* options are implemented by the resolvconf package, if installed
> dns-nameservers 209.59.0.18 209.59.0.2
> dns-search neighborhoods.net
>
> iface eth0:1 inet static
> address 207.154.13.49
> netmask 255.255.255.224
> broadcast 207.154.13.63

eth0:1 is an alias.


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Squeeze with silverlight/Pipelight

[Gábor Hársfalvi]

Hi,

Could someone play any video on this site? ->
http://www.rtlklub.hu/most/45733_ejjel-nappal_budapest_gabornak_szabadnapja_van_mert_a_pizzer

Thanks

Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Miles Fidelman]

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Le 18.10.2013 04:32, Miles Fidelman a écrit :

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:





So, what you name an OS is only drivers+kernel? If so, then ok. 
But some people consider that it includes various other tools 
which does not require hardware accesses. I spoke about graphical 
applications, and you disagree. Matter of opinion, or maybe I did 
not used the good ones, I do not know.
So, what about dpkg in debian? Is it a part of the OS? Is not it a 
ring 3 program? As for tar or shell?




Boy do you like to raise issues that go into semantic grey areas :-)


Not specially, but, to say that C has been made to build OSes only, 
you then have to determine what is an OS to make the previous 
statement useful. For that, I simply searched 3 different sources on 
the web, and all of them said that simple applications are part of 
the OS. Applications like file browsers and terminal emulators.
Without using the same words for the same concepts, we can never 
understand the other :)


I'm pretty sure that C was NOT written to build operating systems -
though it's been used for that (notably Unix).


I never said I agreed that C was designed to build OS only. Having to 
manage memory does not make, in my opinion, a language made to write 
OSes.


Didn't mean to imply that you did - sorry if I gave that impression.  I 
was  commenting on the quoted text "to say that C has been made to build 
OSs only" - and saying that (I think) we're in agreement that it wasn't 
(and that we're in agreement with the author or C in this).


I never took a look, but are linux or unix fully written in C? No 
piece of asm? I would not bet too much on that.


I wouldn't either.  Though again, a quote from Kernighan & Ritchie (same 
source as previously): "C was originally designed for and implemented on 
the Unix operating system on the DC PDP-11 by Dennis Ritchie.  The 
operating system, the C compiler, and essentially all UNIX applications 
(including all of the software used to prepare this book) are written in C.


I'll also quote from "The Unix Programming Environment" (Kernighan and 
Pike, Bell Labs, 1984) - and remember, at the time Bell Labs owned Unix 
- "In 1973, Ritchie and Thompson rewrote the Unix kernel in C, breaking 
from the tradition that system software is written in assembly language."


Out of curiousity, I just took a look at
http://www.tldp.org/LDP/khg/HyperNews/get/tour/tour.html (a nice intro 
the kernel) - and it explicitly mentions assembly code as part of the 
boot process, but nowhere else


I expect, that outside of the boot loader, you might find some assembly 
code in various device drivers, and maybe some kernel modules - but 
probably not anywhere else (except maybe some very performance-critical, 
low-level modules).





It was simply to argue that, even if it was true, then it does not 
avoid it to be good to write applications, since, in more than one 
people's opinion, OSes includes applications.


I agree, it is part of programmer's job. But building a bad SQL 
request is easy, and it can make an application unusable in real 
conditions when it worked fine while programming and testing.


Sure, but writing bad code is pretty easy too :-)


I actually have less problems to write code that I can maintain when I 
do not have to use SQL queries and stored procedures.
I simply hate their syntax. Of course, I am able to write some simple 
code for sql-based DBs, but building and maintaining complex ones is 
not as easy as building a complex C++ module. Or as an asm or C, or 
even perl. Of course, it is only my own opinion.


Gee... I'd say just the opposite, but that's a matter of personal 
experience.  Personally, I won't touch C - I'm a big fan of high-level 
and domain-specific languages for most things, and I guess I'd consider 
SQL a domain-specific language of sorts.  (Then again, I haven't written 
a lot of code in recent years.  I generally work at the systems level of 
things.)





I'd simply make the observation that most SQL queries are generated
on the fly, by code


It is not what I have seen, but I do not have enough experience to 
consider what I have seen as the truth. But I will anyway allow myself 
a comment here, if some people wants to create a new language: please, 
please, please, do not do something like powerbuilder again! This crap 
can mix pb and sql code in the same source file and recognize their 
syntax. It will work. But will be horrible to maintain, so please, do 
not do that! (this language have really hurt me... and not only 
because of that)


I've seen pretty much the opposite.  Pretty much any web app with a 
query interface is talking to some kind of back-end that translates GUI 
interactions into SQL that in turn gets run against a database. (Just 
consider searching for a book on Amazon - there's a lot of SQL being 
generated on the fly by some piece of code.)  Or for that matter, 
consider Excel's wizard for importing fr

Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Miles Fidelman]

Tom H wrote:

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Miles Fidelman
 wrote:

Steffen Dettmer wrote:

I'd like to configure multiple IP addresses to a VLAN tagged interface. I
tried

auto eth3.107
iface eth3.77 inet static
address 10.0.5.15
netmask 255.255.255.0
iface eth3.77 inet static
address 10.0.5.16
netmask 255.255.255.0

but I get an error message that ifup tries to configure the VLAN
interface twice, but the addresses are set.

for what it's worth, my (working, for years) /etc/network/interfaces file
looks like this:

auto lo eth0 eth0:1 eth0:2 eth0:3 eth0:4 eth0:5 eth0:6 eth0:7 eth0:8 eth0:9
eth0
:10 eth0:11 eth0:12 eth0:13 eth0:14 eth0:15

iface eth0 inet static
 address 207.154.13.48
 netmask 255.255.255.224
 network 207.154.13.32
 broadcast 207.154.13.63
 gateway 207.154.13.33
 # dns-* options are implemented by the resolvconf package, if installed
 dns-nameservers 209.59.0.18 209.59.0.2
 dns-search neighborhoods.net

iface eth0:1 inet static
 address 207.154.13.49
 netmask 255.255.255.224
 broadcast 207.154.13.63

eth0:1 is an alias.


ummm... no, eth0:1 is a virtual interface riding on top of a physical 
one (eth0 being the physical interface).


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 10/17/2013 11:37 AM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Le 16.10.2013 17:56, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

You're the one who said programmers need to know a lot of details
about the hardware being used, not me.  The more you need to know
about different hardware, the harder it is to write code to fit all of
that hardware.


I did not said "a lot" but basics. I do not think that knowing that to
build a memory cell you can use 2 NAND. I think that it is useful to
build PC's applications to know that there is a memory stack. Basics.
Knowing that registers have limited size, is also useful: if you program
in C, int's size is, IIRC, dependent on those sizes. Indeed, there are
now types with fixed sizes, too, but I would not bet that many languages
have those.



You've claimed programmers need to understand how memory works, for 
graphics applications how to use the GPU, and even how network protocols 
work.  In my world, that is not "basics".  Even register size is 
immaterial in high level languages.


And only to a certain extent is an int's size dependent on register 
size.  For instance, I can run 32 bit applications just fine on a 64 bit 
machine.  And it uses 32 bit integers.  It is this way in C for 
efficiency reasons, but that's all.  And there is no reason a 32 bit C 
compiler could not run on a 16 bit machine, other than it would be less 
efficient, just as you can use a 64 bit long long in some C compilers on 
a 32 bit machine.


When I was working on IBM mainframes, they had 32 bit registers.  But 
COBOL defines a PACKED DECIMAL type which could be any length; 20 
decimal digits are not uncommon in banking applications.  And there were 
COBOL compilers even on the early 16 bit PCs with this same capability.


What is important is what the language defines, not the physical layout 
of the machine.



Of course, you can simply rely on portable libs. But then, when you have
a bug which does not comes from what you did, how can you determine that
it comes from a lib you used?

I remember having a portability problem, once. A code worked perfectly
on a compiler, and not at all on another one. It was not a problem of
hardware, but of software: both had to do a choice on a standard's lack
of specification (which is something I did not known at that point. I
have never read the standard sadly.). I had to take a look at asm
generated code for both compilers to understand the error, and find a
workaround.


A good programmer knows what is defined and not defined in the
language.  For instance, in our C and C++ classes, we teach that the
results of something like func(i++, ++i); is not defined.


And I am not a good programmer, I know that perfectly. I have still a
lot to learn. The day when I'll claim it anew (I said it, when I was
learning bases...) I will simply be really stupid.



Even beginning C programmers in our classes learn about many things 
which aren't defined by the language.



What allowed me to understand the problem, was that I had that asm
knowledge, which was not a requirement to do what I did.

Of course, I have far less experience and grades than it seem you both
have, and if I gave a minimalistic sample of the problem you could think
that it was stupid, but it does not change that I only was able to fix
the problem because of my knowledge of stuff that I have no real need to
know.



You should always be aware of the limitations of the language you are
using, also.


But those limitations are dependent on the platform they use, for me.
See my example with int. In all lessons I had, teachers mentioned short
and long, but encouraged to use int instead.
And it can give interesting bugs if you use int without knowing that it
may have a different meaning depending on the compiler and the CPU.




No, it is completely dependent on the compiler being used, as noted above.

Jerry


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 2:30 PM, Miles Fidelman
 wrote:
> Tom H wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Miles Fidelman
>>  wrote:
>>
>> eth0:1 is an alias.
>>
> ummm... no, eth0:1 is a virtual interface riding on top of a physical one
> (eth0 being the physical interface).

The OP's asking about eth0.1 NOT eth0:1.

They're both virtual. The first is an interface whose broadcast domain
is defined and limited by the "1" and the second is an alias that
allows you to assign extra ip addresses to an interface. The alias
concept and notation is the result of the old ioctl networking
infrastucture. In the new netlink networking infrastructure, you can
assign more than one address to ethX (but you can still label the
extra address/addresses with :I).


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Dying hard drive?

[Veljko]

Hello,

I have 4 HDDs in software RAID10 for my backup server. I had help on this list
when I started to configure it and everything was working great for a year.

Last few days I noticed some load issues. During backup rotation of rsnapshot
load would go very high. I watched iotop and jbd2 was top most offten. It was
very strange, since jbd2 is ext4 journal manager and I'm using ext4 only for
root partition. I created RAID1 for /boot, RAID10 for root and another,
biggest RAID10 device for backup. Backup partition is using xfs. Boot and root
are using ext4 (don't know why I used ext4 for boot, I know it's not necessary
to have journal on boot partition). Debian installer set up LVM by default, so
I leave it that way for boot and root.

Here is graph where it can be seen that iowait went suddenly up:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8453/jef4.png


Since backup partition is where most of the job is done, I thought that it's
LVMs fault for high load. I moved mysql to xfs backup partition and it
improved situation. Still, load is much higher that 10 days ago. Idle, it was
0.1-0.3.  Now it's 1.5-3. iotop shows some mysqld and jbd2 processes when
server is idle and not much data is written or read. Why that load then? I was
thinking of reinstalling Debian without LVM on boot and root.

I rememberd atop command and that it also shows disk usage. So here is
relevant part:

DSK |  sda | busy 80%  | read   2 | write204  | KiB/r  
4 | KiB/w 16 | MBr/s   0.00  | MBw/s   0.33 | avq 6.24  | avio 38.5 ms |
DSK |  sdd | busy 12%  | read   0 | write215  | KiB/r  
0 | KiB/w 16 | MBr/s   0.00  | MBw/s   0.36 | avq 5.25  | avio 5.51 ms |
DSK |  sdb | busy  9%  | read   0 | write203  | KiB/r  
0 | KiB/w 16 | MBr/s   0.00  | MBw/s   0.33 | avq 7.45  | avio 4.49 ms |
DSK |  sdc | busy  8%  | read   0 | write215  | KiB/r  
0 | KiB/w 16 | MBr/s   0.00  | MBw/s   0.36 | avq 8.91  | avio 3.89 ms |

Although all four disks are used in the same way regarding data being read or
written to them, sda is much busier and it's average number of milliseconds
needed by a request ('avio') is way higher. 

So, my next assumption is that sda is malfunctioning. I used smartctl to see
if I can get any useful information about that. Output of smartctl -t short
/dev/sda:

SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED

I now started "smartctl -t long /dev/sda" but it will take four hours to
finish. Until I have those results, I thought to ask you for an opinion. Can I
assume that hard drive is failing? Can there be some other cause for this
strange sda behavior? 

Regards,
Veljko


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 10/17/2013 12:42 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Le 16.10.2013 17:51, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

I only know few people who actually likes them :)
I liked them too, at a time, but since I can now use standard smart
pointers in C++, I tend to avoid them. I had so much troubles with them,
so now I only use them for polymorphism and sometimes RTTI.
I hope that someday references will become usable in standard
containers... (I think they are not because of technical problems, but I
do not know a lot about that. C++ is easy to learn, but hard to master.)



Good design and code structure eliminates most pointer problems;
proper testing will get the rest.  Smart pointers are nice, but in
real time processing they are an additional overhead (and an unknown
one at that since you don't know the underlying libraries).


Depends on the smart pointer. shared_ptr indeed have a runtime cost,
since it maintains additional data, but unique_ptr does not, afaik, it
is made from pure templates, so only compilation-time cost.



You need to check your templates.  Templates generate code.  Code needs 
resources to execute.  Otherwise there would be no difference between a 
unique_ptr and a C pointer.



Plus, in an OS, there are applications. Kernels, drivers, and
applications.
Take windows, and say honestly that it does not contains applications?
explorer, mspaint, calc, msconfig, notepad, etc. Those are applications,
nothing more, nothing less, and they are part of the OS. They simply
have to manage with the OS's API, as you will with any other
applications. Of course, you can use more and more layers between your
application the the OS's API, to stay in a pure windows environment,
there are (or were) for example MFC and .NET. To be more general, Qt,
wxWidgets, gtk are other tools.



mspaint, calc, notepad, etc. have nothing to do with the OS.  They
are just applications shipped with the OS.  They run as user
applications, with no special privileges; they use standard
application interfaces to the OS, and are not required for any other
application to run.  And the fact they are written in C is immaterial.


So, what you name an OS is only drivers+kernel? If so, then ok. But some
people consider that it includes various other tools which does not
require hardware accesses. I spoke about graphical applications, and you
disagree. Matter of opinion, or maybe I did not used the good ones, I do
not know.
So, what about dpkg in debian? Is it a part of the OS? Is not it a ring
3 program? As for tar or shell?



Yes, the OS is what is required to access the hardware.  dpkg is an 
application, as are tar and shell.





Maybe your "standard installation" comes with Gnome DE.  But none of
my servers do.  And even some of my local systems don't have Gnome.
It is not required for any Debian installation.


True. Mine does not have gnome (or other DE) either.
Maybe I used too big applications as examples. So, what about perl?



Perl is a scripting language.  The Perl interpreter is an application.

Just because something is supplied with an OS does not mean it is part 
of the OS.  Even DOS 1.0 came with some applications, like command.com 
(the command line processor).



But all of this have nothing related to the need of understanding basics
of what you use when doing a program. Not understanding how a resources
you acquired works in its big lines, imply that you will not be able to
manage it correctly by yourself. It is valid for RAM memory, but also
for CPU, network sockets, etc.



Do you know how the SQL database you're using works?


No, but I do understand why comparing text is slower than integers on
x86 computers. Because I know that an int can be stored into one word,
which can be compared with only one instruction, while the text will
imply to compare more than one word, which is indeed slower. And it can
even become worse when the text is not an ascii one.
So I can use that understanding to know why I often avoid to use text as
keys. But it happens that sometimes the more problematic cost is not the
speed but the memory, and so sometimes I'll use text as keys anyway.
Knowing what is the word's size of the SQL server is not needed to make
things work, but it is helps to make it working faster. Instead of
requiring to buy more hardware.



First of all, there is no difference between comparing ASCII text and 
non-ASCII text, if case-sensitivity is observed.  The exact same set of 
machine language instructions is generated.  However, if you are doing a 
case-insensitive comparison, ASCII is definitely slower.


And saying "comparing text is slower than integers" is completely wrong. 
 For instance, a CHAR(4) field can be compared just as quickly as an 
INT field, and CHAR(2) may in fact be faster, depending on many factors.


But if an extra 4 byte key is going to cause you memory problems, you're 
hardware is already undersized.



On the other hand, I could say that building SQL requests is not my job,
and to le

Re: Dying hard drive?

[Miles Fidelman]

Veljko wrote:

Hello,

I have 4 HDDs in software RAID10 for my backup server. I had help on this list
when I started to configure it and everything was working great for a year.

Last few days I noticed some load issues. During backup rotation of rsnapshot
load would go very high. I watched iotop and jbd2 was top most offten. It was
very strange, since jbd2 is ext4 journal manager and I'm using ext4 only for
root partition. I created RAID1 for /boot, RAID10 for root and another,
biggest RAID10 device for backup. Backup partition is using xfs. Boot and root
are using ext4 (don't know why I used ext4 for boot, I know it's not necessary
to have journal on boot partition). Debian installer set up LVM by default, so
I leave it that way for boot and root.

Here is graph where it can be seen that iowait went suddenly up:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8453/jef4.png


Since backup partition is where most of the job is done, I thought that it's
LVMs fault for high load. I moved mysql to xfs backup partition and it
improved situation. Still, load is much higher that 10 days ago. Idle, it was
0.1-0.3.  Now it's 1.5-3. iotop shows some mysqld and jbd2 processes when
server is idle and not much data is written or read. Why that load then? I was
thinking of reinstalling Debian without LVM on boot and root.

I rememberd atop command and that it also shows disk usage. So here is
relevant part:

DSK |  sda | busy 80%  | read   2 | write204  | KiB/r  
4 | KiB/w 16 | MBr/s   0.00  | MBw/s   0.33 | avq 6.24  | avio 38.5 ms |
DSK |  sdd | busy 12%  | read   0 | write215  | KiB/r  
0 | KiB/w 16 | MBr/s   0.00  | MBw/s   0.36 | avq 5.25  | avio 5.51 ms |
DSK |  sdb | busy  9%  | read   0 | write203  | KiB/r  
0 | KiB/w 16 | MBr/s   0.00  | MBw/s   0.33 | avq 7.45  | avio 4.49 ms |
DSK |  sdc | busy  8%  | read   0 | write215  | KiB/r  
0 | KiB/w 16 | MBr/s   0.00  | MBw/s   0.36 | avq 8.91  | avio 3.89 ms |

Although all four disks are used in the same way regarding data being read or
written to them, sda is much busier and it's average number of milliseconds
needed by a request ('avio') is way higher.

So, my next assumption is that sda is malfunctioning. I used smartctl to see
if I can get any useful information about that. Output of smartctl -t short
/dev/sda:

SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED

I now started "smartctl -t long /dev/sda" but it will take four hours to
finish. Until I have those results, I thought to ask you for an opinion. Can I
assume that hard drive is failing? Can there be some other cause for this
strange sda behavior?



Do a smartctl -A /dev/sd[abcd] - look for non-zero raw read errors and 
reallocated sector counts.  I've found, at least for the WD drives I use 
in my servers - anything other than a 0 raw-read-error count is a sign 
of near-term disk failure.  The first time I encountered the symptoms 
you report, it took me a LONG time to figure it out.  The basic SMART 
test is useless.


Note that this particularly applies if you're not using an 
enterprise-class drive.  Standard drives try very hard to read from the 
medium, and take a long time before they give up.  Enterprise drives 
assume they're part of a RAID array and just give up, throwing an error.


Miles Fidelman


--
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In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Miles Fidelman]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/17/2013 11:37 AM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Le 16.10.2013 17:56, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

You're the one who said programmers need to know a lot of details
about the hardware being used, not me.  The more you need to know
about different hardware, the harder it is to write code to fit all of
that hardware.


I did not said "a lot" but basics. I do not think that knowing that to
build a memory cell you can use 2 NAND. I think that it is useful to
build PC's applications to know that there is a memory stack. Basics.
Knowing that registers have limited size, is also useful: if you program
in C, int's size is, IIRC, dependent on those sizes. Indeed, there are
now types with fixed sizes, too, but I would not bet that many languages
have those.



You've claimed programmers need to understand how memory works, for 
graphics applications how to use the GPU, and even how network 
protocols work.  In my world, that is not "basics".  Even register 
size is immaterial in high level languages.


And only to a certain extent is an int's size dependent on register 
size.  For instance, I can run 32 bit applications just fine on a 64 
bit machine.  And it uses 32 bit integers.  It is this way in C for 
efficiency reasons, but that's all.  And there is no reason a 32 bit C 
compiler could not run on a 16 bit machine, other than it would be 
less efficient, just as you can use a 64 bit long long in some C 
compilers on a 32 bit machine.


When I was working on IBM mainframes, they had 32 bit registers. But 
COBOL defines a PACKED DECIMAL type which could be any length; 20 
decimal digits are not uncommon in banking applications.  And there 
were COBOL compilers even on the early 16 bit PCs with this same 
capability.


What is important is what the language defines, not the physical 
layout of the machine.


In the REAL world, program behavior is very much driven by the 
properties of underlying hardware.


And... when actually packaging code for compilation and/or installation 
- you need to know a lot about what tests to run, and what compile/link 
switches to set based on the characteristics of the build and run-time 
environments.




Of course, you can simply rely on portable libs. But then, when you 
have
a bug which does not comes from what you did, how can you determine 
that

it comes from a lib you used?

I remember having a portability problem, once. A code worked perfectly
on a compiler, and not at all on another one. It was not a problem of
hardware, but of software: both had to do a choice on a standard's 
lack

of specification (which is something I did not known at that point. I
have never read the standard sadly.). I had to take a look at asm
generated code for both compilers to understand the error, and find a
workaround.


A good programmer knows what is defined and not defined in the
language.  For instance, in our C and C++ classes, we teach that the
results of something like func(i++, ++i); is not defined.


And I am not a good programmer, I know that perfectly. I have still a
lot to learn. The day when I'll claim it anew (I said it, when I was
learning bases...) I will simply be really stupid.



Even beginning C programmers in our classes learn about many things 
which aren't defined by the language.



What allowed me to understand the problem, was that I had that asm
knowledge, which was not a requirement to do what I did.

Of course, I have far less experience and grades than it seem you both
have, and if I gave a minimalistic sample of the problem you could 
think

that it was stupid, but it does not change that I only was able to fix
the problem because of my knowledge of stuff that I have no real 
need to

know.



You should always be aware of the limitations of the language you are
using, also.


But those limitations are dependent on the platform they use, for me.
See my example with int. In all lessons I had, teachers mentioned short
and long, but encouraged to use int instead.
And it can give interesting bugs if you use int without knowing that it
may have a different meaning depending on the compiler and the CPU.




No, it is completely dependent on the compiler being used, as noted 
above.


Bulltwaddle.  It also depends on the linker, the libraries, compile-time 
switches, and lots of other things.


Given what you have to say, I sure as hell wouldn't hire anybody who's 
learned programming from one of your classes.



--
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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 10/17/2013 3:57 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:




Do you know how the SQL database you're using works?


Sure do.  Don't you?



I know how the interface works.  Actually, I do know quite a bit about 
the internals of how it works.  But do you know how it parses the SQL 
statements?  Do you know how it searches indexes - or even decides which 
(if any) indexes to use?  Do you know how it access data on the disk?



Kinda have to, to install and configure it; chose between engine types
(e.g., INNOdb vs. ISAM for mySQL).  And if you're doing any kind of
mapping, you'd better know about spatial extensions (POSTGIS, Oracel
Spatial).  Then you get into triggers and stored procedures, which are
somewhat product-specific.  And that's before you get into things like
replication, transaction rollbacks, 3-phase commits, etc.



Which has nothing to do with how it works - just how you interface to it.


For that matter, it kind of helps to know about when to use an SQL
database, and when to use something else (graph store, table store,
object store, etc.).



It's always good to know which the right tool to use is.




Do you know how
the network works?  Do you even know if you're using wired or wireless
networks.


I said, basic knowledge is used. Knowing what is a packet, that
depending on the protocol you'll use, they'll have more or less space
available, to send as few packets as possible and so, to improve
performances.
Indeed, it would not avoid things to work if you send 3 packets where
you could have sent only 2, but it will cost less, and so I think it
would be a better program.


Probably even more than that.  For a lot of applications, there's a
choice of protocols available; as well as coding schemes.  If you're
building a client-server application to run over a fiber network, you're
probably going to make different choices than if you're writing a mobile
app to run over a cellular data network.  There are applications where
you get a big win if you can run over IP multicast (multi-player
simulators, for example) - and if you can't, then you have to make some
hard choices about network topology and protocols (e.g., star network
vs. multicast overlay protocol).


If it's the same app running on fiber or cellular, you will need the 
same information either way.  Why would you make different choices?


And what if the fiber network goes down and you have to use a hot spot 
through a cellular network to make the application run?


But yes, if you're using different apps, you need different interfaces. 
 But you also can't control the network topology from your app; if it 
depends on a certain topology it will break as soon as that topology 
changes.




For now, I should say that knowing the basics of internals allow to
build more efficient softwares, but:

Floating numbers are another problem where understanding basics can
help understanding things. They are not precise (and, no, I do not
know exactly how they work. I have only basics), and this can give you
some bugs, if you do not know that their values should not be
considered as reliable than integer's one. (I only spoke about
floating numbers, not about fixed real numbers or whatever is the name).
But, again, it is not *needed*: you can always have someone who says
to do something and do it without understanding why. You'll probably
make the error anew, or use that trick he told you to use in a less
effective way the next time, but it will work.

And here, we are not in the simple efficiency, but to something which
can make an application completely unusable, with "random" errors.


As in the case when Intel shipped a few million chips that mis-performed
arithmatic operations under some very odd cases.



Good programmers can write programs which are independent of the
hardware.


No.  They can't.  They can write programs that behave the same on
different hardware, but that requires either:
a. a lot of care in either testing for and adapting to different
hardware environments (hiding things from the user), an/or,
b. selecting a platform that does all of that for you, and/or,
c. a lot of attention to making sure that your build tools take care of
things for you (selecting the right version of libraries for the
hardware that you're installing on)



Somewhat misleading.  I am currently working on a project using embedded 
Debian on an ARM processor (which has a completely different 
configuration and instruction set from Intel machines).  The application 
collects data and generates graphs based on that data.  For speed 
reasons (ARM processors are relatively slow), I'm compiling and testing 
on my Intel machine.  There is no hardware dependent code in it, and no 
processor/system-dependent code in it.  But when I cross-compile the 
same source code and load it on the ARM, it works just the same as it 
does on my Intel system.


Now the device drivers I need are hardware-specific; I can compile them 
on my Intel machi

Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 10/17/2013 8:31 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:



Le 17.10.2013 21:57, Miles Fidelman a écrit :

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Le 16.10.2013 17:51, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

I only know few people who actually likes them :)
I liked them too, at a time, but since I can now use standard smart
pointers in C++, I tend to avoid them. I had so much troubles with
them,
so now I only use them for polymorphism and sometimes RTTI.
I hope that someday references will become usable in standard
containers... (I think they are not because of technical problems,
but I
do not know a lot about that. C++ is easy to learn, but hard to
master.)



Good design and code structure eliminates most pointer problems;
proper testing will get the rest.  Smart pointers are nice, but in
real time processing they are an additional overhead (and an unknown
one at that since you don't know the underlying libraries).


Depends on the smart pointer. shared_ptr indeed have a runtime cost,
since it maintains additional data, but unique_ptr does not, afaik,
it is made from pure templates, so only compilation-time cost.


You guys should love LISP - it's pointers all the way down. :-)


I do not really like pointers anymore, and this is why I like smart
pointers ;)



So, what you name an OS is only drivers+kernel? If so, then ok. But
some people consider that it includes various other tools which does
not require hardware accesses. I spoke about graphical applications,
and you disagree. Matter of opinion, or maybe I did not used the good
ones, I do not know.
So, what about dpkg in debian? Is it a part of the OS? Is not it a
ring 3 program? As for tar or shell?



Boy do you like to raise issues that go into semantic grey areas :-)


Not specially, but, to say that C has been made to build OSes only, you
then have to determine what is an OS to make the previous statement
useful. For that, I simply searched 3 different sources on the web, and
all of them said that simple applications are part of the OS.
Applications like file browsers and terminal emulators.
Without using the same words for the same concepts, we can never
understand the other :)



Yes, and you can also search the web and find people claim that the 
Holocost never happened, Global Warming is a myth and the Earth is the 
center of the universe.


Just because it's in the internet does not mean it is so.  The key is to 
find it from RELIABLE resources.



No, but I do understand why comparing text is slower than integers on
x86 computers. Because I know that an int can be stored into one
word, which can be compared with only one instruction, while the text
will imply to compare more than one word, which is indeed slower. And
it can even become worse when the text is not an ascii one.
So I can use that understanding to know why I often avoid to use text
as keys. But it happens that sometimes the more problematic cost is
not the speed but the memory, and so sometimes I'll use text as keys
anyway.
Knowing what is the word's size of the SQL server is not needed to
make things work, but it is helps to make it working faster. Instead
of requiring to buy more hardware.

On the other hand, I could say that building SQL requests is not my
job, and to left it to specialists which will be experts of the
specific hardware + specific SQL engine used to build better
requests. They will indeed build better than I can actually, but it
have a time overhead and require to hire specialists, so higher price
which may or may not be possible.


Seems to me that you're more right on with your first statement. How
can one not consider building SQL requests as part of a programmer's
repertoire, in this day and age?


I agree, it is part of programmer's job. But building a bad SQL request
is easy, and it can make an application unusable in real conditions when
it worked fine while programming and testing.



Proper testing includes simulating "real conditions".


Do you know how
the network works?  Do you even know if you're using wired or wireless
networks.


I said, basic knowledge is used. Knowing what is a packet, that
depending on the protocol you'll use, they'll have more or less space
available, to send as few packets as possible and so, to improve
performances.
Indeed, it would not avoid things to work if you send 3 packets where
you could have sent only 2, but it will cost less, and so I think it
would be a better program.


Probably even more than that.  For a lot of applications, there's a
choice of protocols available;


Ah, did not thought about that point, too. Technology choice, which is,
imo, part of programmer's job requires understanding of their strong and
weak points.


For now, I should say that knowing the basics of internals allow to
build more efficient softwares, but:

Floating numbers are another problem where understanding basics can
help understanding things. They are not precise (and, no, I do not
know exactly how they work. I have only basics), and this ca

Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[berenger . morel]

Le 18.10.2013 16:22, Miles Fidelman a écrit :
But now, are most programmers paid by societies with hundreds of 
programmers?


(and whether you actually mean "developer" vs. "programmer")


I do not see the difference between those words. Could you give me 
the nuances please? I still have a lot to learn to understand 
English for precise terms.


The terminology is pretty imprecise to begin with, and probably
varies by country and industry.  The general pecking order, as I've
experienced it is (particularly in the US military and government
systems environments, as well as the telecom. industry):

Systems Engineer:  Essentially chief engineer for a project.
(Alternate term: Systems Architect)
- responsible for the big picture
- translate from requirements to concept-of-operations and systems
architecture
- hardware/software tradeoffs and other major technical decisions

Hardware Engineers (typically Electrical Engineers): Design and 
build
hardware (including computers, but also comms. networks, 
interfaces,

etc.)

Software Engineers: Engineers responsible for designing and 
building
software.  Expected to have a serious engineering degree (sometimes 
an

EE, often a Computer Science or Computer Engineering degree) and
experience.  Expected to solve hard problems, design algorithms, 
and
so forth.  Also have specific training in the discipline of 
software

engineering.  People who's resume says "software engineer" have
typically worked on a range of applications - the discipline is 
about

problem solving with computers.

Developer:  Vague term, generally applied to people who do the same
kinds of work as software engineers.  But doesn't carry the
connotation of an EE or CS degree.  Tends to be commonly used in
product development environments.  In my experience, a lot of
developers start out writing code in their own field of expertise
(doctors writing medical applications, musicians writing music
software, and so forth).  People with "developer" on their resume
often have specialties associated with the term - e.g., "game
developer" - emphasizing an area of specialization.

Programmer:  A term I've never actually understood.  Basic use 
seems
to be "someone who knows how to program" or "someone who programs 
for
living."  But I've personally never seen anyone hired purely as 
a

"programmer."  (I've hired, and seen hired, a lot of developers and
software engineers, but never a pure programmer.)  As far as I can
tell, the term is a carryover from the early days of large systems 
-
where "systems analysts" figure out what a system was supposed to 
do

(i.e., did the engineering) and then directed programmers to write
code.  (Akin to the relationship between a hardware engineer giving 
a

design to a technician, who would then build a prototype.)

Coder (or "code monkey"): A somewhat pejorative term for an 
unskilled
programmer - someone who might have taken a couple of "introduction 
to

programming" courses and now thinks he/she can write code.

For what it's worth - my observation is that the demand is for
software engineers and developers (i.e., skilled people who can 
solve
real problems).  But... computer science curricula, at least in a 
lot
of schools, seems to be dumbing down -- a lot of places look more 
like

programming trade schools than serious engineering programs. Not a
good thing at all.


It seem you attach a lot of importance to schools ( that what I 
understand in "computer science curricula" ) but I wonder: how do you 
consider people who learned themselves, before even learning a craft 
at school ( that's what wikipedia says when I start from the French 
"métier" and then switch on English language. I understand that it 
seems to be reserved for physical products in English, but, I like 
that notion: "A craft is a pastime or a profession that requires some 
particular kind of skilled work." which makes things different from a 
simple job. ) ?


Would you name them coder, programmer, developer? Something else? Do 
you consider they are always less efficient that people with high 
degrees?


Well, yes engineering is a professional discipline, lots of
knowledge (both from books and practical) - generally, folks who work
as software engineers a degree in EE, or CS, or CE, or sometimes 
math.


Having said that:
- In the early days, say before 1980, that was less so - in those
days, practically nobody knew anything about computers; I know quite 
a

few people who dropped out of college and went right to work in the
field, and never looked back.  (For that matter, Bill Gates comes to
mind.)  These days, though it's a lot harder to get hired for 
anything

without a bachelor's degree - at least in the US (I know that
education works a little differently in Europe.)

- Also, a lot of people doing software development are NOT degreed
engineers



(though it's pretty hard to get hired for anything in the US
without a bachelorate in something)


I do not think it can be worse than in 

Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Steffen Dettmer]

Hi!

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:24 PM, Tom H  wrote:
>> I'm using Wheezy with ifup version 0.7.8, I think this is the
>> latest officially released (aka "the best") one?
>
> Strange. I was under the impression that Debian 7's ifupdown is using
> iproute but you had a vconfig error in an earlier email - and the
> "trying to add" error below also looks like an ioctl error rather than
> a netlink one.

Ahh, that is a good point, yes, of course, there are old-style
errors instead of this "NETLINK: file already exists"! I saw the
message but completed missed that.

I'm looking at "strace -e execve -f -o out ifup eth1.77", and one
one box I see:

  (no stat "vconfig")
  ip link add link eth1 name eth1.77 type vlan id 77

and on the other I see:

  stat64("/sbin/vconfig", {st_mode=S_IFREG|0755, st_size=8032, ...}) = 0
  vconfig set_name_type DEV_PLUS_VID_NO_PAD
  vconfig add eth3 78

I think I manually installed package "vlan" on only this second
box at a previous test. This package is not on the first box
(altough documentation seems to suggest it would be needed).

If first strace would include stat(...vconfig...) I would assume
ifup tries vconfig and fall-backs to ip (but I think it should be
other way around), but may be there is a different way to detect
usage of vconfig...

> Does anyone know whether adding an ip address with ip to an interface
> configured with ifconfig isn't possible? Probably not.

On Shell and without VLAN, I'm used to create first IP with
"ifconfig ethX ip netmask ... up" and then use "ip addr add
" (mostly because I always forget the ip link set up syntax :))
and this works, so simply setting IPs normally is no issue
(except that they are normally not visible in ifconfig of course).

> So the post-up should be "post-up ifconfig eth0.9:0 192.168.1.199
> netmask 255.255.255.0 up", although I can't remember ever coming
> across such an interface (or know whether it's possible to do
> something like this with net-tools!).

The following commands procedure no error:

ifconfig eth3.78:0 192.168.1.199 up
ip addr add 192.168.1.200 dev eth3.78
ip addr add 192.168.1.201 dev eth3.78:0   # funny :)

resulting in

9: eth3.78@eth3:  mtu 1500 qdisc
noqueue state UP
link/ether 08:00:27:46:0a:34 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
inet 10.0.5.15/24 brd 10.0.5.255 scope global eth3.78
inet 192.168.1.199/24 brd 192.168.1.255 scope global eth3.78:0
inet 192.168.1.199/32 scope global eth3.78
inet 192.168.1.200/32 scope global eth3.78

So seems to be nicely compatible.

> Maybe you could try to do what you want using net-tools manually to
> remove any ifupdown bug from the mix.

Yes, this could be an option, but probably taking a day to
implement and another for testing (I'm always optimistic, you see :)).

>> Is the example above correct? Does it work for you? Could your
>> machine be boot so quickly that it might not be visible without
>> adding --noclear to /etc/inittab for tty1 getty?
>
> I tested once. I just took down the network so that only "lo" was
> defined and then brought it up with what I'd posted.

Do you have package vlan installed? Maybe I should retest after
removing package "vlan"...

Steffen


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ipad connection

[Verde Denim]

When I connect my iPad4 to my Debian Wheezy box, I get this message
DBus error org.freedesktop.DBus. Error. No Reply. Message did not
receive a reply (timeout by message bus). This worked with an older iPad
(gen 1 & 2). Is there something I'm missing to be able to connect my iPad 4?

Debian: Linux Nebo 3.2.0-4-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 3.2.46-1+deb7u1 x86_64
GNU/Linux

iPad: 7.0.2 (11A501)

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Regards

Jack
Boston Tea Party, Coercive Acts, Powder Alarm, Revolution
Lessons (Mistakes) not learned are bound to be repeated.


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packages for amd64 and i386 at a different version

[Jari Fredrisson]

I can't install or update ANYTHING in my wheezy right now.

Whatever I try, there is always this:

dpkg: error processing libcurl3:amd64 (--configure):
 package libcurl3:amd64 7.26.0-1+wheezy4 cannot be configured because
libcurl3:i386 is at a different version (7.26.0-1+wheezy3)
dpkg: error processing libxml2:amd64 (--configure):
 package libxml2:amd64 2.8.0+dfsg1-7+nmu2 cannot be configured because
libxml2:i386 is at a different version (2.8.0+dfsg1-7+nmu1)
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of libisc84:
 libisc84 depends on libxml2 (>= 2.7.4); however:
  Package libxml2:amd64 is not configured yet.

I have many more packages in same state. Different versions for i386.

What might be the reason for this kind of bummer?


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Re: ipad connection

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 11:58 -0400, Verde Denim wrote:
> iPad: 7.0.2

It at least isn't caused by the iOS version. Connecting an iPad 2
running the same version, I don't get an issue. In the past I used USB
cables of a valid length regarding to USB specifications, but this often
caused trouble, only the much to short cable from Apple can be used
here. A Suse GNOME 2 thingy does see my iPad, but I'm using it with VBox
on Ubuntu and Arch only. There likely is something fishy with your
Debian and or iPad.


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Miles Fidelman]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/17/2013 3:57 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:




Do you know how the SQL database you're using works?


Sure do.  Don't you?



I know how the interface works.  Actually, I do know quite a bit about 
the internals of how it works.  But do you know how it parses the SQL 
statements?  Do you know how it searches indexes - or even decides 
which (if any) indexes to use?  Do you know how it access data on the 
disk?



Kinda have to, to install and configure it; chose between engine types
(e.g., INNOdb vs. ISAM for mySQL).  And if you're doing any kind of
mapping, you'd better know about spatial extensions (POSTGIS, Oracel
Spatial).  Then you get into triggers and stored procedures, which are
somewhat product-specific.  And that's before you get into things like
replication, transaction rollbacks, 3-phase commits, etc.



Which has nothing to do with how it works - just how you interface to it.


Umm, no ISAM and INNOdb are very much about internals.  So are the 
spatial extensions - they add specific indexing and search functionality 
- and how those are performed.

Probably even more than that.  For a lot of applications, there's a
choice of protocols available; as well as coding schemes.  If you're
building a client-server application to run over a fiber network, you're
probably going to make different choices than if you're writing a mobile
app to run over a cellular data network.  There are applications where
you get a big win if you can run over IP multicast (multi-player
simulators, for example) - and if you can't, then you have to make some
hard choices about network topology and protocols (e.g., star network
vs. multicast overlay protocol).


If it's the same app running on fiber or cellular, you will need the 
same information either way.  Why would you make different choices?


And what if the fiber network goes down and you have to use a hot spot 
through a cellular network to make the application run?


But yes, if you're using different apps, you need different 
interfaces.  But you also can't control the network topology from your 
app; if it depends on a certain topology it will break as soon as that 
topology changes.


If I'm running on fiber, and unmetered, I probably won't worry as much 
about compression.  If I'm running on cellular - very much so.   And off 
course I can control my network topology, at least in the large - I can 
choose between a P2P architecture or a centralized one, for example.  I 
can do replication and redundancy at the client side or on the server 
side.  There are lots of system-level design choices that are completely 
dependent on network environment.







For now, I should say that knowing the basics of internals allow to
build more efficient softwares, but:

Floating numbers are another problem where understanding basics can
help understanding things. They are not precise (and, no, I do not
know exactly how they work. I have only basics), and this can give you
some bugs, if you do not know that their values should not be
considered as reliable than integer's one. (I only spoke about
floating numbers, not about fixed real numbers or whatever is the 
name).

But, again, it is not *needed*: you can always have someone who says
to do something and do it without understanding why. You'll probably
make the error anew, or use that trick he told you to use in a less
effective way the next time, but it will work.

And here, we are not in the simple efficiency, but to something which
can make an application completely unusable, with "random" errors.


As in the case when Intel shipped a few million chips that mis-performed
arithmatic operations under some very odd cases.



Good programmers can write programs which are independent of the
hardware.


No.  They can't.  They can write programs that behave the same on
different hardware, but that requires either:
a. a lot of care in either testing for and adapting to different
hardware environments (hiding things from the user), an/or,
b. selecting a platform that does all of that for you, and/or,
c. a lot of attention to making sure that your build tools take care of
things for you (selecting the right version of libraries for the
hardware that you're installing on)



Somewhat misleading.  I am currently working on a project using 
embedded Debian on an ARM processor (which has a completely different 
configuration and instruction set from Intel machines). The 
application collects data and generates graphs based on that data.  
For speed reasons (ARM processors are relatively slow), I'm compiling 
and testing on my Intel machine.  There is no hardware dependent code 
in it, and no processor/system-dependent code in it.  But when I 
cross-compile the same source code and load it on the ARM, it works 
just the same as it does on my Intel system.


Now the device drivers I need are hardware-specific; I can compile 
them on my Intel machine but not run them.  Howe

Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Steffen Dettmer]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:24 PM, Tom H  wrote:
>> --->8===
>> auto lo
>> iface lo inet loopback
>>
>> allow-auto eth0.9
>> iface eth0.9 inet static
>>   address 192.168.1.119
>>   netmask 255.255.255.0
>>   gateway 192.168.1.1
>>   post-up ip address add 192.168.1.199/24 dev eth0.9
>> ===8<---
>> Is the example above correct? Does it work for you? Could your
>> machine be boot so quickly that it might not be visible without
>> adding --noclear to /etc/inittab for tty1 getty?
>
> I tested once. I just took down the network so that only "lo" was
> defined and then brought it up with what I'd posted.

I retested after "dpkg -P vlan", booted a couple of times and got
no single error. Seems this mean to use VLAN someone should better
not install package vlan... :-)

Good spot about the non-NETLINK errors!! Thanks so much, I completely
missed that!

So maybe there is just some issue about some vconfig
backward-compatiblity in ifup?

Have a great weekend, Tom and all the list!

Steffen


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Logout, shut down autostarted app in openbox?

[Kenward Vaughan]

Hi,

I have a nicely working script for rotating backgrounds in openbox. It
is initiated in autostart.sh.  My trouble involves having this shut
down if I log out, then back in at a later time.  The first instance
does not get terminated, so my backgrounds begin to change at really
interesting rates...

Is there a check of some sort I can put into the script in the
beginning that will either exit if another instance is running, or shut
that earlier one down and continue on?  

The script is off some online forum, called by:

./.config/openbox/wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh 

in autostart.sh.  The script itself:

#!/bin/bash
shopt -s nullglob
cd ~/Pictures

while true; do
files=()
for i in *.[Jj][Pp][Gg] *.png; do
[[ -f $i ]] && files+=("$i")
done
range=${#files[@]}
((range)) && feh --bg-max "${files[RANDOM % range]}"
sleep 15m
done

Many thanks for suggestions!


Kenward
-- 
In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be 
_teachers_ and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, 
because passing civilization along from one generation to the next 
ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone 
could have. - Lee Iacocca


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[berenger . morel]

Le 18.10.2013 17:54, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

On 10/17/2013 8:31 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:



Le 17.10.2013 21:57, Miles Fidelman a écrit :

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Le 16.10.2013 17:51, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

I only know few people who actually likes them :)
I liked them too, at a time, but since I can now use standard 
smart
pointers in C++, I tend to avoid them. I had so much troubles 
with

them,
so now I only use them for polymorphism and sometimes RTTI.
I hope that someday references will become usable in standard
containers... (I think they are not because of technical 
problems,

but I
do not know a lot about that. C++ is easy to learn, but hard to
master.)



Good design and code structure eliminates most pointer problems;
proper testing will get the rest.  Smart pointers are nice, but 
in
real time processing they are an additional overhead (and an 
unknown

one at that since you don't know the underlying libraries).


Depends on the smart pointer. shared_ptr indeed have a runtime 
cost,
since it maintains additional data, but unique_ptr does not, 
afaik,

it is made from pure templates, so only compilation-time cost.


You guys should love LISP - it's pointers all the way down. :-)


I do not really like pointers anymore, and this is why I like smart
pointers ;)



So, what you name an OS is only drivers+kernel? If so, then ok. 
But
some people consider that it includes various other tools which 
does
not require hardware accesses. I spoke about graphical 
applications,
and you disagree. Matter of opinion, or maybe I did not used the 
good

ones, I do not know.
So, what about dpkg in debian? Is it a part of the OS? Is not it a
ring 3 program? As for tar or shell?



Boy do you like to raise issues that go into semantic grey areas 
:-)


Not specially, but, to say that C has been made to build OSes only, 
you

then have to determine what is an OS to make the previous statement
useful. For that, I simply searched 3 different sources on the web, 
and

all of them said that simple applications are part of the OS.
Applications like file browsers and terminal emulators.
Without using the same words for the same concepts, we can never
understand the other :)



Yes, and you can also search the web and find people claim that the
Holocost never happened, Global Warming is a myth and the Earth is 
the

center of the universe.

Just because it's in the internet does not mean it is so.  The key is
to find it from RELIABLE resources.


You know that it is the same for you? I am not completely stupid, it is 
not because I will read something somewhere that I'll trust it. When I 
read something, I have the same process: comparing it to other sources, 
and then thinking about it.
The point is, that I can hardly quote the French dictionary on this 
mailing list, and I do not feel the need of buying such resources 
written in English, since I do not like at the moment in an 
English-speaking country.


Now, more useful than saying that my sources are not reliable, could 
you provide your owns? Some that I can check, of course. But which are 
not on the Internet, since they are not reliable. Will be pretty hard, 
right?


No, but I do understand why comparing text is slower than integers 
on

x86 computers. Because I know that an int can be stored into one
word, which can be compared with only one instruction, while the 
text
will imply to compare more than one word, which is indeed slower. 
And

it can even become worse when the text is not an ascii one.
So I can use that understanding to know why I often avoid to use 
text
as keys. But it happens that sometimes the more problematic cost 
is
not the speed but the memory, and so sometimes I'll use text as 
keys

anyway.
Knowing what is the word's size of the SQL server is not needed to
make things work, but it is helps to make it working faster. 
Instead

of requiring to buy more hardware.

On the other hand, I could say that building SQL requests is not 
my

job, and to left it to specialists which will be experts of the
specific hardware + specific SQL engine used to build better
requests. They will indeed build better than I can actually, but 
it
have a time overhead and require to hire specialists, so higher 
price

which may or may not be possible.


Seems to me that you're more right on with your first statement. 
How
can one not consider building SQL requests as part of a 
programmer's

repertoire, in this day and age?


I agree, it is part of programmer's job. But building a bad SQL 
request
is easy, and it can make an application unusable in real conditions 
when

it worked fine while programming and testing.



Proper testing includes simulating "real conditions".


Simulating real conditions is possible, in theory. In practice, I doubt 
it. Otherwise, applications would not have any bug discovered after the 
release.
Some people told me to never underestimate the fact that users can do 
things you will not think they would

Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 10/17/2013 10:32 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:





So, what you name an OS is only drivers+kernel? If so, then ok. But
some people consider that it includes various other tools which does
not require hardware accesses. I spoke about graphical applications,
and you disagree. Matter of opinion, or maybe I did not used the
good ones, I do not know.
So, what about dpkg in debian? Is it a part of the OS? Is not it a
ring 3 program? As for tar or shell?



Boy do you like to raise issues that go into semantic grey areas :-)


Not specially, but, to say that C has been made to build OSes only,
you then have to determine what is an OS to make the previous
statement useful. For that, I simply searched 3 different sources on
the web, and all of them said that simple applications are part of the
OS. Applications like file browsers and terminal emulators.
Without using the same words for the same concepts, we can never
understand the other :)


I'm pretty sure that C was NOT written to build operating systems -
though it's been used for that (notably Unix).



Yes, it was.  It was developed in the late 60's and early 70's at AT&T's 
Bell Labs specifically to create Unix.



To quote from the first sentence of the Preface to the classic C book,
"The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and Ritchie, published by Bell
Labs in 1978 (pretty authoritative given that Ritchie was one of C's
authors):

"C is a general-purpose programming language "



Yes, the book came out around 1978 - several years AFTER C was initially 
developed (and used to create Unix), and after people had started to use 
C for applications programs.



Now there ARE "systems programming" languages that were created for the
specific purpose of writing operating systems, compilers, and other
systems software.  BCPL comes to mind.  PL360 and PL/S come to mind from
the IBM world.  As I recall, Burroughs used ALGOL to build operating
systems, and Multics used PL/1.



I don't remember an OS built on ALGOL.  That must have been an 
experience? :)  I didn't use PL360, but PL/S was basically a subset of 
PL/1 with inline assembler capabilities.  It was nice in that it took 
care of some of the "grunt work" (like do and while loops and if 
statements).






I'd simply make the observation that most SQL queries are generated on
the fly, by code - so the notion of building SQL requests to "experts"
is a non-starter.  Someone has to write the code that in turn generates
SQL requests.


Not in my experience.  I've found far more SQL statements are coded into 
the program, with variables or bind parameters for data which changes.


Think about it - the code following a SELECT statement has to know what 
the SELECT statement returned.  It wouldn't make a lot of sense to 
change the tables, columns, etc. being used.


And in some RDBMS's (i.e. DB2), the static SQL statements are parsed and 
stored in the database by a preprocessor, eliminating significant 
overhead during execution time.




Jerry


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Re: what's up with the apt-get

[don magnify]

thanks bob.


On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:11 PM, Bob Proulx  wrote:

> don magnify wrote:
> > what exactly needs to be in sources.list?
>
> You are missing Wheezy main.  You only have:
>
> > deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ wheezy-updates main contrib
>
> And that is contrib without non-free which seems odd to me.
>
> I think you would be happy with exactly these lines.  Simplest is to
> move your entire file out of the way and then install these six lines.
>
> deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy main contrib non-free
> deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy main contrib non-free
> deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy-updates main contrib non-free
> deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy-updates main contrib
> non-free
> deb http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main contrib non-free
> deb-src http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main contrib non-free
>
> Be sure to run 'apt-get update' after making changes.
>
> Bob
>

Re: Dying hard drive?

[Veljko]

Hello Miles,

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:43:59AM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Do a smartctl -A /dev/sd[abcd] - look for non-zero raw read errors
> and reallocated sector counts.  I've found, at least for the WD
> drives I use in my servers - anything other than a 0 raw-read-error
> count is a sign of near-term disk failure.  The first time I
> encountered the symptoms you report, it took me a LONG time to
> figure it out.  The basic SMART test is useless.

IIUIC, this is output I should be looking:

sda:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME  FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE  UPDATED  
WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   095   094   006Pre-fail  Always   
-   230210521
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   096   096   036Pre-fail  Always   
-   5832

sdb:
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   119   082   006Pre-fail  Always   
-   234455192
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   099   099   036Pre-fail  Always   
-   2320

sdc:
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   115   099   006Pre-fail  Always   
-   87852008
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036Pre-fail  Always   
-   0

sdd:
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   118   099   006Pre-fail  Always   
-   187317944
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036Pre-fail  Always   
-   0


Acording to this, all drives are bad, but only sda behaves badly. Three more
values are reported as Pre-fail: Spin_Up_Time, Seek_Error_Rate and
Spin_Retry_Count. Full output for sda:

ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME  FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE  UPDATED  
WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   095   094   006Pre-fail  Always   
-   230231673
  3 Spin_Up_Time0x0003   097   097   000Pre-fail  Always   
-   0
  4 Start_Stop_Count0x0032   100   100   020Old_age   Always   
-   3
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   096   096   036Pre-fail  Always   
-   5832
  7 Seek_Error_Rate 0x000f   087   060   030Pre-fail  Always   
-   471820319
  9 Power_On_Hours  0x0032   089   089   000Old_age   Always   
-   9750
 10 Spin_Retry_Count0x0013   100   100   097Pre-fail  Always   
-   0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count   0x0032   100   100   020Old_age   Always   
-   4
183 Runtime_Bad_Block   0x0032   098   098   000Old_age   Always   
-   2
184 End-to-End_Error0x0032   100   100   099Old_age   Always   
-   0
187 Reported_Uncorrect  0x0032   001   001   000Old_age   Always   
-   386
188 Command_Timeout 0x0032   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   0
189 High_Fly_Writes 0x003a   099   099   000Old_age   Always   
-   1
190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022   063   056   045Old_age   Always   
-   37 (Min/Max 22/44)
191 G-Sense_Error_Rate  0x0032   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   0
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   1
193 Load_Cycle_Count0x0032   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   1266
194 Temperature_Celsius 0x0022   037   044   000Old_age   Always   
-   37 (0 22 0 0)
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0012   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   8
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0010   100   100   000Old_age   Offline  
-   8
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count0x003e   200   200   000Old_age   Always   
-   0
240 Head_Flying_Hours   0x   100   253   000Old_age   Offline  
-   174414326932768
241 Total_LBAs_Written  0x   100   253   000Old_age   Offline  
-   23166370191361
242 Total_LBAs_Read 0x   100   253   000Old_age   Offline  
-   174661697951516

 
> Note that this particularly applies if you're not using an
> enterprise-class drive.  Standard drives try very hard to read from
> the medium, and take a long time before they give up.  Enterprise
> drives assume they're part of a RAID array and just give up,
> throwing an error.

I'm using Seagate ST3000DM001-9YN166 drives, not enterprise-class drives.


Regards,
Veljko


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[berenger . morel]

Le 18.10.2013 17:50, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

And, again, just a guess, but I'm guessing the huge percentage of
programmers these days are writing .NET code on vanilla Windows 
machines
(not that I like it, but it does seem to be a fact of life).  A lot 
of
people also seem to be writing stored SQL procedures to run on MS 
SQL.




Bad guess.  .NET is way down the list of popularity (much to
Microsoft's chagrin).  COBOL is still number 1; C/C++ still way
surpass .NET.  And MSSQL is well behind MySQL in the number of
installations (I think Oracle is still #1 with DB2 #2).


I wonder where did you had those numbers?
Usually, in various studies, COBOL is not even in the 5 firsts. I do 
not say that those studies are pertinent, they are obviously not, since 
their methods always shows problems. But, it does not means that they 
are completely wrong, and I mostly use them as very vague indicators.
So, I would like were you had your indicators, I may find that 
interesting for various reasons.


Except that, .NET is not a language, it is a framework, that can be 
used with C or C++ without any problem.


I expect that there are NOT a lot of people writing production code 
to

run on Debian, expect for use on internal servers.  When it comes to
writing Unix code for Government or Corporate environments, or for
products that run on Unix, the target is usually either Solaris, AIX
(maybe), and Red Hat.



I would say not necessarily writing for Debian, but writing for Linux
in general is pretty popular, and getting more so.


I think smartphones gave a ray of light.


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Re: Squeeze with silverlight/Pipelight

[Lisi Reisz]

On Friday 18 October 2013 15:03:27 Gábor Hársfalvi wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Could someone play any video on this site? ->
> http://www.rtlklub.hu/most/45733_ejjel-nappal_budapest_gabornak_sza
>badnapja_van_mert_a_pizzer
>
> Thanks

I just tried, but I'm afraid that I gave up when MS started wanting to 
install things on my computer!

Sorry,
Lisi


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Re: Logout, shut down autostarted app in openbox?

[Ralf Mardorf]

if [ "$(pidof wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh)" ] ; then
  killall -9 -w wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh
fi
# add your code here
exit

while pidof wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh > /dev/null ; killall 
wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh ; done
# add your code here
exit


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Re: Logout, shut down autostarted app in openbox?

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 18:34 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> if [ "$(pidof wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh)" ] ; then
>   killall -9 -w wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh
> fi
> # add your code here
> exit
> 
> while pidof wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh > /dev/null ; killall 
> wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh ; done
> # add your code here
> exit

Or write an init script or systemd script, what ever you're using, to
kill the script at shut down.



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Re: Logout, shut down autostarted app in openbox?

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 18:36 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 18:34 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > if [ "$(pidof wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh)" ] ; then
> >   killall -9 -w wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh
> > fi
> > # add your code here
> > exit
> > 
> > while pidof wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh > /dev/null ; killall 
> > wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh ; done
> > # add your code here
> > exit
> 
> Or write an init script or systemd script, what ever you're using, to
> kill the script at shut down.


Oops, instead of pidof you need to run

ps aux | grep /path/to/wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh



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Re: Logout, shut down autostarted app in openbox?

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 18:45 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 18:36 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 18:34 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > > if [ "$(pidof wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh)" ] ; then
> > >   killall -9 -w wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh
> > > fi
> > > # add your code here
> > > exit
> > > 
> > > while pidof wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh > /dev/null ; killall 
> > > wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh ; done
> > > # add your code here
> > > exit
> > 
> > Or write an init script or systemd script, what ever you're using, to
> > kill the script at shut down.
> 
> 
> Oops, instead of pidof you need to run
> 
> ps aux | grep /path/to/wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh

:D

ps aux | grep /path/to/wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh | grep -v grep



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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 10/18/2013 12:11 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/17/2013 3:57 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:




Do you know how the SQL database you're using works?


Sure do.  Don't you?



I know how the interface works.  Actually, I do know quite a bit about
the internals of how it works.  But do you know how it parses the SQL
statements?  Do you know how it searches indexes - or even decides
which (if any) indexes to use?  Do you know how it access data on the
disk?


Kinda have to, to install and configure it; chose between engine types
(e.g., INNOdb vs. ISAM for mySQL).  And if you're doing any kind of
mapping, you'd better know about spatial extensions (POSTGIS, Oracel
Spatial).  Then you get into triggers and stored procedures, which are
somewhat product-specific.  And that's before you get into things like
replication, transaction rollbacks, 3-phase commits, etc.



Which has nothing to do with how it works - just how you interface to it.


Umm, no ISAM and INNOdb are very much about internals.  So are the
spatial extensions - they add specific indexing and search functionality
- and how those are performed.


Sure.  But do you know HOW IT WORKS?  Obviously, not.


Probably even more than that.  For a lot of applications, there's a
choice of protocols available; as well as coding schemes.  If you're
building a client-server application to run over a fiber network, you're
probably going to make different choices than if you're writing a mobile
app to run over a cellular data network.  There are applications where
you get a big win if you can run over IP multicast (multi-player
simulators, for example) - and if you can't, then you have to make some
hard choices about network topology and protocols (e.g., star network
vs. multicast overlay protocol).


If it's the same app running on fiber or cellular, you will need the
same information either way.  Why would you make different choices?

And what if the fiber network goes down and you have to use a hot spot
through a cellular network to make the application run?

But yes, if you're using different apps, you need different
interfaces.  But you also can't control the network topology from your
app; if it depends on a certain topology it will break as soon as that
topology changes.


If I'm running on fiber, and unmetered, I probably won't worry as much
about compression.  If I'm running on cellular - very much so.   And off
course I can control my network topology, at least in the large - I can
choose between a P2P architecture or a centralized one, for example.  I
can do replication and redundancy at the client side or on the server
side.  There are lots of system-level design choices that are completely
dependent on network environment.



No, you cannot control your network topology.  All you can control is 
how you interface to the network.  Once it leaves your machine 
(actually, once you turn control over to the OS to send/receive the 
data), it is completely out of your control.  Hardware guys, for 
instance, can change the network at any time.  And if you're on a TCP/IP 
network, even individual packets can take different routes.


And what happens when one day a contractor cuts your fiber?  If you're 
dependent on it, your system is down.  A good programmer doesn't depend 
on a physical configuration - and the system can continue as soon as a 
backup link is made - even if it's via a 56Kb modem on a phone line.








For now, I should say that knowing the basics of internals allow to
build more efficient softwares, but:

Floating numbers are another problem where understanding basics can
help understanding things. They are not precise (and, no, I do not
know exactly how they work. I have only basics), and this can give you
some bugs, if you do not know that their values should not be
considered as reliable than integer's one. (I only spoke about
floating numbers, not about fixed real numbers or whatever is the
name).
But, again, it is not *needed*: you can always have someone who says
to do something and do it without understanding why. You'll probably
make the error anew, or use that trick he told you to use in a less
effective way the next time, but it will work.

And here, we are not in the simple efficiency, but to something which
can make an application completely unusable, with "random" errors.


As in the case when Intel shipped a few million chips that mis-performed
arithmatic operations under some very odd cases.



Good programmers can write programs which are independent of the
hardware.


No.  They can't.  They can write programs that behave the same on
different hardware, but that requires either:
a. a lot of care in either testing for and adapting to different
hardware environments (hiding things from the user), an/or,
b. selecting a platform that does all of that for you, and/or,
c. a lot of attention to making sure that your build tools take care of
things for you (selecting the ri

Re: packages for amd64 and i386 at a different version

[Sven Joachim]

On 2013-10-18 17:54 +0200, Jari Fredrisson wrote:

> I can't install or update ANYTHING in my wheezy right now.
>
> Whatever I try, there is always this:
>
> dpkg: error processing libcurl3:amd64 (--configure):
>  package libcurl3:amd64 7.26.0-1+wheezy4 cannot be configured because
> libcurl3:i386 is at a different version (7.26.0-1+wheezy3)
> dpkg: error processing libxml2:amd64 (--configure):
>  package libxml2:amd64 2.8.0+dfsg1-7+nmu2 cannot be configured because
> libxml2:i386 is at a different version (2.8.0+dfsg1-7+nmu1)
> dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of libisc84:
>  libisc84 depends on libxml2 (>= 2.7.4); however:
>   Package libxml2:amd64 is not configured yet.
>
> I have many more packages in same state. Different versions for i386.
>
> What might be the reason for this kind of bummer?

Perhaps the i386 packages of libcurl3 and libxml2 failed to unpack?
Their versions in the archive don't differ from the amd64 packages.

Cheers,
   Sven


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Re: Logout, shut down autostarted app in openbox?

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 18:49 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 18:45 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 18:36 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > > On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 18:34 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > > > if [ "$(pidof wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh)" ] ; then
> > > >   killall -9 -w wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh
> > > > fi
> > > > # add your code here
> > > > exit
> > > > 
> > > > while pidof wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh > /dev/null ; killall 
> > > > wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh ; done
> > > > # add your code here
> > > > exit
> > > 
> > > Or write an init script or systemd script, what ever you're using, to
> > > kill the script at shut down.
> > 
> > 
> > Oops, instead of pidof you need to run
> > 
> > ps aux | grep /path/to/wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh
> 
> :D
> 
> ps aux | grep /path/to/wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh | grep -v grep

Sorry, I guess this should work:

ps aux | grep "/bin/bash /path/to/wallpaperRandomSwitch.sh" | grep -v grep



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Re: Dying hard drive?

[mfidelman]

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone

 Original message 
From: Veljko  
Date: 10/18/2013  12:26 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org 
Subject: Re: Dying hard drive? 
 
Hello Miles,

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:43:59AM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Do a smartctl -A /dev/sd[abcd] - look for non-zero raw read errors
> and reallocated sector counts.  I've found, at least for the WD
> drives I use in my servers - anything other than a 0 raw-read-error
> count is a sign of near-term disk failure.  The first time I
> encountered the symptoms you report, it took me a LONG time to
> figure it out.  The basic SMART test is useless.

IIUIC, this is output I should be looking:

sda:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME  FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE  UPDATED  
WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   095   094   006    Pre-fail  Always   
-   230210521
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   096   096   036    Pre-fail  Always   
-   5832

sdb:
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   119   082   006    Pre-fail  Always   
-   234455192
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   099   099   036    Pre-fail  Always   
-   2320

sdc:
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   115   099   006    Pre-fail  Always   
-   87852008
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036    Pre-fail  Always   
-   0

sdd:
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   118   099   006    Pre-fail  Always   
-   187317944
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036    Pre-fail  Always   
-   0


Acording to this, all drives are bad, but only sda behaves badly. Three more
values are reported as Pre-fail: Spin_Up_Time, Seek_Error_Rate and
Spin_Retry_Count. Full output for sda:

ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME  FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE  UPDATED  
WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   095   094   006    Pre-fail  Always   
-   230231673
  3 Spin_Up_Time    0x0003   097   097   000    Pre-fail  Always   
-   0
  4 Start_Stop_Count    0x0032   100   100   020    Old_age   Always   
-   3
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   096   096   036    Pre-fail  Always   
-   5832
  7 Seek_Error_Rate 0x000f   087   060   030    Pre-fail  Always   
-   471820319
  9 Power_On_Hours  0x0032   089   089   000    Old_age   Always   
-   9750
10 Spin_Retry_Count    0x0013   100   100   097    Pre-fail  Always   - 
  0
12 Power_Cycle_Count   0x0032   100   100   020    Old_age   Always   - 
  4
183 Runtime_Bad_Block   0x0032   098   098   000    Old_age   Always   
-   2
184 End-to-End_Error    0x0032   100   100   099    Old_age   Always   
-   0
187 Reported_Uncorrect  0x0032   001   001   000    Old_age   Always   
-   386
188 Command_Timeout 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always   
-   0
189 High_Fly_Writes 0x003a   099   099   000    Old_age   Always   
-   1
190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022   063   056   045    Old_age   Always   
-   37 (Min/Max 22/44)
191 G-Sense_Error_Rate  0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always   
-   0
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always   
-   1
193 Load_Cycle_Count    0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always   
-   1266
194 Temperature_Celsius 0x0022   037   044   000    Old_age   Always   
-   37 (0 22 0 0)
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always   
-   8
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0010   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline  
-   8
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x003e   200   200   000    Old_age   Always   
-   0
240 Head_Flying_Hours   0x   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline  
-   174414326932768
241 Total_LBAs_Written  0x   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline  
-   23166370191361
242 Total_LBAs_Read 0x   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline  
-   174661697951516


> Note that this particularly applies if you're not using an
> enterprise-class drive.  Standard drives try very hard to read from
> the medium, and take a long time before they give up.  Enterprise
> drives assume they're part of a RAID array and just give up,
> throwing an error.

I'm using Seagate ST3000DM001-9YN166 drives, not enterprise-class drives.


Ok... seagate probably writes error codes in that field. Try googling the model 
number and smart, or raw_read_error. That might help you track things down.  I 
guess you could also try soft-removing one drive at a time from your array to 
isolate the bad drive.

Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[berenger . morel]

Le 18.10.2013 17:22, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

On 10/17/2013 12:42 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Le 16.10.2013 17:51, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

I only know few people who actually likes them :)
I liked them too, at a time, but since I can now use standard 
smart
pointers in C++, I tend to avoid them. I had so much troubles with 
them,

so now I only use them for polymorphism and sometimes RTTI.
I hope that someday references will become usable in standard
containers... (I think they are not because of technical problems, 
but I
do not know a lot about that. C++ is easy to learn, but hard to 
master.)




Good design and code structure eliminates most pointer problems;
proper testing will get the rest.  Smart pointers are nice, but in
real time processing they are an additional overhead (and an 
unknown

one at that since you don't know the underlying libraries).


Depends on the smart pointer. shared_ptr indeed have a runtime cost,
since it maintains additional data, but unique_ptr does not, afaik, 
it

is made from pure templates, so only compilation-time cost.



You need to check your templates.  Templates generate code.  Code
needs resources to execute.  Otherwise there would be no difference
between a unique_ptr and a C pointer.


In practice, you can replace every occurrence of std::unique_ptr 
by int* in your code. It will still work, and have no bug. Except, of 
course, that you will have to remove some ".get()", ".release()" and 
things like that here and there.
You can not do the inverse transformation, because you can not copy 
unique_ptr.


The only use of unique_ptr is to forbid some operations. The code it 
generates is the same as you would have used around your raw pointers: 
new, delete, swap, etc.
Of course, you can say that the simple fact of calling a method have an 
overhead, but most of unique_ptr's stuff is inlined. Even without 
speaking about compiler's optimizations.



Plus, in an OS, there are applications. Kernels, drivers, and
applications.
Take windows, and say honestly that it does not contains 
applications?
explorer, mspaint, calc, msconfig, notepad, etc. Those are 
applications,
nothing more, nothing less, and they are part of the OS. They 
simply

have to manage with the OS's API, as you will with any other
applications. Of course, you can use more and more layers between 
your
application the the OS's API, to stay in a pure windows 
environment,
there are (or were) for example MFC and .NET. To be more general, 
Qt,

wxWidgets, gtk are other tools.



mspaint, calc, notepad, etc. have nothing to do with the OS.  They
are just applications shipped with the OS.  They run as user
applications, with no special privileges; they use standard
application interfaces to the OS, and are not required for any 
other
application to run.  And the fact they are written in C is 
immaterial.


So, what you name an OS is only drivers+kernel? If so, then ok. But 
some

people consider that it includes various other tools which does not
require hardware accesses. I spoke about graphical applications, and 
you
disagree. Matter of opinion, or maybe I did not used the good ones, 
I do

not know.
So, what about dpkg in debian? Is it a part of the OS? Is not it a 
ring

3 program? As for tar or shell?



Yes, the OS is what is required to access the hardware.  dpkg is an
application, as are tar and shell.


< snip >

Just because something is supplied with an OS does not mean it is
part of the OS.  Even DOS 1.0 came with some applications, like
command.com (the command line processor).



So, it was not a bad idea to ask what you name an OS. So, everything 
which run in rings 0, 1 and 2 is part of the OS, but not softwares using 
ring 3? Just for some confirmation.


I disagree, but it is not important, since at least now I can use the 
word in the same meaning as you, which is far more important.


But all of this have nothing related to the need of understanding 
basics
of what you use when doing a program. Not understanding how a 
resources
you acquired works in its big lines, imply that you will not be 
able to
manage it correctly by yourself. It is valid for RAM memory, but 
also

for CPU, network sockets, etc.



Do you know how the SQL database you're using works?


No, but I do understand why comparing text is slower than integers 
on
x86 computers. Because I know that an int can be stored into one 
word,

which can be compared with only one instruction, while the text will
imply to compare more than one word, which is indeed slower. And it 
can

even become worse when the text is not an ascii one.
So I can use that understanding to know why I often avoid to use 
text as
keys. But it happens that sometimes the more problematic cost is not 
the

speed but the memory, and so sometimes I'll use text as keys anyway.
Knowing what is the word's size of the SQL server is not needed to 
make

things work, but it is helps to make it working faster. Instead of
requiring to buy more hard

E: Unable to locate package libpngwriter0-dev

[don magnify]

hi...


now that have sorted out the sources.list i get this:

E: Unable to locate package libpngwriter0-dev

for # apt-get install libpngwriter0-dev

although http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/libpngwriter0-dev

my guess is one is squeezing the other is weezing. so how do i force it in?


do i create a separate sources.list for squeeze?


thanks..

Re: Dying hard drive?

[Andre Majorel]

On 2013-10-18 11:43 -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:

> Do a smartctl -A /dev/sd[abcd] - look for non-zero raw read errors
> and reallocated sector counts.

And Current_Pending_Sector !

> I've found, at least for the WD drives I use in my servers -
> anything other than a 0 raw-read-error count is a sign of
> near-term disk failure.

This is highly manufacturer dependent. In my experience, with
Seagate drives, it's normal to have Raw_Read_Error_Rate in the
tens or hundreds of millions.

> Note that this particularly applies if you're not using an
> enterprise-class drive.  Standard drives try very hard to read from
> the medium, and take a long time before they give up.  Enterprise
> drives assume they're part of a RAID array and just give up,
> throwing an error.

Really ? Interesting, didn't know that.

-- 
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lists.debian.org, a spammer's favourite.


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 10/18/2013 1:10 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Le 18.10.2013 17:22, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

On 10/17/2013 12:42 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Le 16.10.2013 17:51, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

I only know few people who actually likes them :)
I liked them too, at a time, but since I can now use standard smart
pointers in C++, I tend to avoid them. I had so much troubles with
them,
so now I only use them for polymorphism and sometimes RTTI.
I hope that someday references will become usable in standard
containers... (I think they are not because of technical problems,
but I
do not know a lot about that. C++ is easy to learn, but hard to
master.)



Good design and code structure eliminates most pointer problems;
proper testing will get the rest.  Smart pointers are nice, but in
real time processing they are an additional overhead (and an unknown
one at that since you don't know the underlying libraries).


Depends on the smart pointer. shared_ptr indeed have a runtime cost,
since it maintains additional data, but unique_ptr does not, afaik, it
is made from pure templates, so only compilation-time cost.



You need to check your templates.  Templates generate code.  Code
needs resources to execute.  Otherwise there would be no difference
between a unique_ptr and a C pointer.


In practice, you can replace every occurrence of std::unique_ptr by
int* in your code. It will still work, and have no bug. Except, of
course, that you will have to remove some ".get()", ".release()" and
things like that here and there.
You can not do the inverse transformation, because you can not copy
unique_ptr.

The only use of unique_ptr is to forbid some operations. The code it
generates is the same as you would have used around your raw pointers:
new, delete, swap, etc.
Of course, you can say that the simple fact of calling a method have an
overhead, but most of unique_ptr's stuff is inlined. Even without
speaking about compiler's optimizations.



Even inlined code requires resources to execute.  It is NOT as fast as 
regular C pointers.



Plus, in an OS, there are applications. Kernels, drivers, and
applications.
Take windows, and say honestly that it does not contains applications?
explorer, mspaint, calc, msconfig, notepad, etc. Those are
applications,
nothing more, nothing less, and they are part of the OS. They simply
have to manage with the OS's API, as you will with any other
applications. Of course, you can use more and more layers between your
application the the OS's API, to stay in a pure windows environment,
there are (or were) for example MFC and .NET. To be more general, Qt,
wxWidgets, gtk are other tools.



mspaint, calc, notepad, etc. have nothing to do with the OS.  They
are just applications shipped with the OS.  They run as user
applications, with no special privileges; they use standard
application interfaces to the OS, and are not required for any other
application to run.  And the fact they are written in C is immaterial.


So, what you name an OS is only drivers+kernel? If so, then ok. But some
people consider that it includes various other tools which does not
require hardware accesses. I spoke about graphical applications, and you
disagree. Matter of opinion, or maybe I did not used the good ones, I do
not know.
So, what about dpkg in debian? Is it a part of the OS? Is not it a ring
3 program? As for tar or shell?



Yes, the OS is what is required to access the hardware.  dpkg is an
application, as are tar and shell.


< snip >

Just because something is supplied with an OS does not mean it is
part of the OS.  Even DOS 1.0 came with some applications, like
command.com (the command line processor).



So, it was not a bad idea to ask what you name an OS. So, everything
which run in rings 0, 1 and 2 is part of the OS, but not softwares using
ring 3? Just for some confirmation.



Not necessarily.  There are parts of the OS which run at ring 3, also.

What's important is not what ring it's running at - it's is the code 
required to access the hardware on the machine?



I disagree, but it is not important, since at least now I can use the
word in the same meaning as you, which is far more important.


But all of this have nothing related to the need of understanding
basics
of what you use when doing a program. Not understanding how a
resources
you acquired works in its big lines, imply that you will not be
able to
manage it correctly by yourself. It is valid for RAM memory, but also
for CPU, network sockets, etc.



Do you know how the SQL database you're using works?


No, but I do understand why comparing text is slower than integers on
x86 computers. Because I know that an int can be stored into one word,
which can be compared with only one instruction, while the text will
imply to compare more than one word, which is indeed slower. And it can
even become worse when the text is not an ascii one.
So I can use that understanding to know why I often avoid to use text as
keys. But i

Re: web-gui for scripts

[Pol Hallen]

The easiest thing is to make sure there no user-submitted data can be
passed on to the system and no system output can be passed on directly
to the user.


ok


 Use if-then statements, case statements, and even
scrubbing via regex if it is necessary to pass data.


good idea, thanks!


 Also, if these are
maintenance scripts, you might want to put them behind TLS and a password
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/howto/auth.html


cool, I already know apache's auth methods

Lars, that's the problem!

On my mx-backup server I've a small script:

#!/bin/bash
echo -n "Enter domain name: "
read DOMAIN
echo $DOMAIN OK >> /etc/postfix/relaydomains
postmap /etc/postfix/relaydomains
/etc/init.d/postfix reload

But is boring everytime connect to ssh and put new domain using command 
line... :-/


I need build a something to add new domain by web-gui (and allow use of 
this web-gui also to my friend).


How webadmin runs when an user put variable to system?

thanks!

--
Pol


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Re: web-gui for scripts

[Pol Hallen]

is it "something like this" or is it "this"?


:-)


If it's "this", I would
suggest you to install a software like Webmin or so.


I need build my own web-gui

thanks for help

Pol


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Re: XFCE is slow on Acer One netbook - suggestions?

[Joe]

On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:37:44 +0200
berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:


> Am 17.10.2013 um 16:45 schrieb Joe :

> 
> >> Both LXDE and XFCE use Openbox, but of course there are many
> >> others.
> 
> XFCE uses it's own wm: xfwm4. Of course, you can use openbox with
> XFCE, but it is not the default choice.
> 
> 
OK, when I last used XFCE it was in a hurry after LXDE had broken, so I
suppose by default it used the window manager from my last session. I
was using kdm as the display manager, so it would have retained the
information.

-- 
Joe


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shell usage; was Re: xmonad and LXDE.

[peasthope]

From: Bob Proulx 
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:49:38 -0600
> You can run very well with X and a window manager and without a desktop 
> environment.  

Definitely I've taken note but for now I'm leaving LXDE. 
For example, the task bar at the bottom of the screen is helpful 
and I haven't learned to open it without LXDE.

From: Bob Proulx 
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 23:04:12 -0600
> Oops.  Probably append instead of overwrite.
> 
>   $ nohup xmonad > ~/.xsession-errors 2>&1 &
>   $ disown

I've tried to combine on one line and neither of these works.
$ nohup xmonad > ~/.xsession-errors 2>&1 &  ; disown
$ nohup xmonad > ~/.xsession-errors 2>&1 & \; disown
Someone please give a correct syntax.

Thanks, ...  Peter E.






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Re: Logout, shut down autostarted app in openbox?

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 09:09 -0700, Kenward Vaughan wrote:
> My trouble involves having this shut down if I log out, then back in
> at a later time.

Than a script for shutdown wouldn't work. I misunderstood at least this
part of your request. I thought you were writing about a shutdown and
that after startup the old session would be restored. If it would be
like that, than the easiest way would be not to start it in addition :D.
Sorry.

However, is ps aux and killall what you're looking for? I didn't test it
and I never learned to write scripts, I only piece together script.



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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Joe]

On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 14:36:13 +0200
berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

> Le 18.10.2013 04:32, Miles Fidelman a écrit :

> >
> > I'm pretty sure that C was NOT written to build operating systems -
> > though it's been used for that (notably Unix).
> 
> I never said I agreed that C was designed to build OS only. Having to 
> manage memory does not make, in my opinion, a language made to write 
> OSes.

'There's nothing new under the sun.'

C was designed with a view to rewriting the early assembler-based Unix,
but not from scratch. It was partially derived from B, which was based
on BCPL, which itself was based on CPL and optimised to write
compilers, but was also used for OS programming...

> I never took a look, but are linux or unix fully written in C? No
> piece of asm? I would not bet too much on that.
> 
More than you ever wanted to know...

http://digital-domain.net/lug/unix-linux-history.html

-- 
Joe


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Re: Xorg/driver assignment

[Curt]

On 2013-09-23, Matthias Meyer  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have an AMD E450 and I've downloaded and install the
> amd-driver-installer-catalyst-13-4-x86.x86_64
>
> Now I'm not sure whether the driver is properly installed.
> Probably there is a configuration problem
>
> root@vdr:~# fglrxinfo
> display: localhost:10.0  screen: 0
> OpenGL vendor string: Tungsten Graphics, Inc
> OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Intel(R) Q35 
> OpenGL version string: 1.4 Mesa 8.0.5

Perhaps this might help to work things out (look notably at 5.1. MESA
"error")

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto/ATI


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Re: ipad connection

[Verde Denim]

On 10/18/2013 12:08 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 11:58 -0400, Verde Denim wrote:
>> iPad: 7.0.2
> It at least isn't caused by the iOS version. Connecting an iPad 2
> running the same version, I don't get an issue. In the past I used USB
> cables of a valid length regarding to USB specifications, but this often
> caused trouble, only the much to short cable from Apple can be used
> here. A Suse GNOME 2 thingy does see my iPad, but I'm using it with VBox
> on Ubuntu and Arch only. There likely is something fishy with your
> Debian and or iPad.
>
>
The iPad4 has a slightly different cable connection from a standard
micro-usb so trying a different cable is out. The Debian box is stable
and can handle other iPads/phones without an issue. I'm thinking its the
iPad4/iOS 7.0.2 that's the problem, but not sure why it just doesn't
connect. It keeps asking me for the PIN and to retry. It will do this
and issue the DBus message regardless of whether the PIN is already
entered or not, or even whether the PIN is enabled.

-- 
Regards

Jack
Boston Tea Party, Coercive Acts, Powder Alarm, Revolution
Lessons (Mistakes) not learned are bound to be repeated.


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Re: ipad connection

[Shane Johnson]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Verde Denim  wrote:
> On 10/18/2013 12:08 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 11:58 -0400, Verde Denim wrote:
>>> iPad: 7.0.2
>> It at least isn't caused by the iOS version. Connecting an iPad 2
>> running the same version, I don't get an issue. In the past I used USB
>> cables of a valid length regarding to USB specifications, but this often
>> caused trouble, only the much to short cable from Apple can be used
>> here. A Suse GNOME 2 thingy does see my iPad, but I'm using it with VBox
>> on Ubuntu and Arch only. There likely is something fishy with your
>> Debian and or iPad.
>>
>>
> The iPad4 has a slightly different cable connection from a standard
> micro-usb so trying a different cable is out. The Debian box is stable
> and can handle other iPads/phones without an issue. I'm thinking its the
> iPad4/iOS 7.0.2 that's the problem, but not sure why it just doesn't
> connect. It keeps asking me for the PIN and to retry. It will do this
> and issue the DBus message regardless of whether the PIN is already
> entered or not, or even whether the PIN is enabled.
>
> --
> Regards
>
> Jack
> Boston Tea Party, Coercive Acts, Powder Alarm, Revolution
> Lessons (Mistakes) not learned are bound to be repeated.
>
>
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>
I could be very wrong on this, but I thought the new generation of
apple products where using thunderbolt and not USB.

Shane


-- 
Shane D. Johnson
IT Administrator
Rasmussen Equipment


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Re: ipad connection

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 12:55 -0600, Shane Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Verde Denim  wrote:
> > I'm thinking its the iPad4/iOS 7.0.2 that's the problem, but not
> > sure why it just doesn't connect. It keeps asking me for the PIN
> > and to retry.

It's not iOS 7.0.2. For the iPad 2 iOS 7.0.2 does only ask

"Trust this computer?", after touching "Trust" it works.

> I could be very wrong on this, but I thought the new generation of
> apple products where using thunderbolt and not USB.

No, I did a web search and it still does provide USB.




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Re: packages for amd64 and i386 at a different version

[Dmitrii Kashin]

Jari Fredrisson  writes:

> I can't install or update ANYTHING in my wheezy right now.

First of all, versions for different architectures are equal.

For example:


freehck@lpt00:~% apt-cache policy libcurl3   
libcurl3:
  Installed: 7.32.0-1
  Candidate: 7.32.0-1
  Version table:
 7.33.0-1 0
  1 file:/home/mirror/pool/ sid/main amd64 Packages
 *** 7.32.0-1 0
500 file:/home/mirror/pool/ jessie/main amd64 Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
 7.26.0-1+wheezy4 0
500 file:/home/mirror/pool/ wheezy/main amd64 Packages
freehck@lpt00:~% apt-cache policy libcurl3:i386  
libcurl3:i386:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 7.32.0-1
  Version table:
 7.33.0-1 0
  1 http://mirror.yandex.ru/debian/ sid/main i386 Packages
 7.32.0-1 0
500 http://mirror.yandex.ru/debian/ jessie/main i386 Packages
 7.26.0-1+wheezy4 0
500 http://mirror.yandex.ru/debian/ wheezy/main i386 Packages


Have you tried to do again:

% apt-get update
% apt-get upgrade

If it does not work, would you be kind to show the entity of file
/etc/apt/sources.list?



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Re: ipad connection

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 21:15 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 12:55 -0600, Shane Johnson wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Verde Denim  wrote:
> > > I'm thinking its the iPad4/iOS 7.0.2 that's the problem, but not
> > > sure why it just doesn't connect. It keeps asking me for the PIN
> > > and to retry.
> 
> It's not iOS 7.0.2. For the iPad 2 iOS 7.0.2 does only ask
> 
> "Trust this computer?", after touching "Trust" it works.
> 
> > I could be very wrong on this, but I thought the new generation of
> > apple products where using thunderbolt and not USB.
> 
> No, I did a web search and it still does provide USB.

PS: Perhaps you're right and they want that new customers can't use
Linux computers anymore. Maybe iOS 7.x does behave differently for an
iPad 4.

For the iPad 2 and other devices this already is an issue after updating
from iOS 6.x to iOS 7.x:

 Forwarded Message 
From: Christian Schoenebeck 
To: jack-de...@lists.jackaudio.org
Subject: [Jack-Devel] JACK iOS (RIP) (was: JACK on mobile)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 14:52:33 +0200
Mailer: KMail/1.13.5 (Linux/2.6.32-5-amd64; KDE/4.4.5; x86_64; ; )

On Thursday 17 October 2013 10:54:11 Dan MacDonald wrote:
> Christian:
> 
> JACK iOS is dead already? Why? There is no mention or explanation of its
> passing on its homepage that I can see.

Yes, you can consider JACK iOS dead, because starting with iOS 7.0 Apple 
decided to block all IPC mechanisms between third party apps. So you can't 
establish shared memory, native Mach port connections or any other way to 
communicate with foreign apps anymore. That's the reason why the JACK app 
won't launch on iOS 7 anymore. It crashes immediately right after the point 
when it tries to establish shared memory. You can now (iOS7) only use specific 
IPC APIs for processes that are part of apps signed with the same team profile 
/ signature, that is IPC is now limited explicitly to your own and only to 
your own apps.

Stéphane filed a bug report (#1498) at Apple's BTS and I also asked for 
some statement from Apple's side i.e. on their Developer forum and Apple 
engineers directly, but all requests concerning this particular issue were 
ignored by them. Many other app developers have the problem of course, and 
they also filed reports etc., but nobody got any reply. So it seems to be 
consciously ignored.

The reason why we haven't updated the website yet, was simply to wait a bit 
for some potential "official" response still to come from Apple, but at this 
point I don't actually expect this to happen anymore.

I was actually a bit shocked how aggressively Apple enforced this new policy 
(disallowing custom IPC that is). This is a very drastic change in the OS, 
which was never officially announced, nor was it as of to date mentioned in 
any developer resource like API docs, header files, API diffs or anything 
else. And I would at least expect a deprecation / grace period for such a huge 
new OS restriction.

At this year's WWDC an Apple engineer mentioned in a personal conversation 
(unofficially) that native Mach ports might get blocked in iOS 7, however I 
was optimistic that this would not be applied to all IPCs facilities entirely. 
But I was false.

You might ask how Audiobus managed to solve it. To my knowledge they actually 
dropped their previously used audio server backend (which was poor anyway) and 
instead turned the Audiobus app simply to be an "Inter-App Audio" (IAA) host. 
The latter is a new (quite limited) system introduced by Apple with iOS 7 for 
connecting audio apps with each other. Unfortunately for JACK we cannot do as 
the Audiobus authors did. Because JACK is far more powerful than IAA and 
JACK's concept would not fit into the IAA framework at all. Of course we could 
recycle the JACK iOS GUI for a new app on top of Apple's IAA system, but as 
said this would then just be yet another IAA host app, not JACK anymore, and 
accordingly would have the exact same limitations as any other IAA host app.

CU
Christian
___
Jack-Devel mailing list
jack-de...@lists.jackaudio.org
http://lists.jackaudio.org/listinfo.cgi/jack-devel-jackaudio.org

 Forwarded Message 
From: Christian Schoenebeck 
To: jack-de...@lists.jackaudio.org
Subject: Re: [Jack-Devel] JACK iOS?
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 17:40:53 +0200
Mailer: KMail/1.13.5 (Linux/2.6.32-5-amd64; KDE/4.4.5; x86_64; ; )

On Thursday 17 October 2013 16:55:24 Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
> > JACK iOS (RIP) was configurable down to 2.9ms
> 
> looks like i missed something. got any pointers to learn about the why
> and how of JACK iOS' untimely end?

Yes, I explained it in detail just hours ago on this list (search for subject 
"JACK iOS (RIP)").

> and is it rest in peace or rest in pieces?

In peace, or rather comatose, but it's unlikely that it will ever wake up from 
that coma, simply because it's caused by a new sandbox restriction in iOS7 
which is obviou

Re: E: Unable to locate package libpngwriter0-dev

[Dmitrii Kashin]

don magnify  writes:

> http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/libpngwriter0-dev
>
> do i create a separate sources.list for squeeze?

No. I would recommend you to read sources.list(5) accurately, and then
add squeeze repository into it.


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Bob Proulx]

Tom H wrote:
> Bob Proulx wrote:
> > Of course I know nothing about vlan configuration so I am likely wrong
> > here.  I just know that visually it doesn't match.  However all of the
> > docs I see just now suggest using a bridge.  Perhaps something like this.
> >
> >   auto eth0
> >   allow-hotplug eth0
> >   iface eth0 inet static
> >   address 10.0.5.15
> >   netmask 255.255.255.0
> >   iface eth0 inet static
> >   address 10.0.5.16
> >   netmask 255.255.255.0
> >   iface eth0.77 inet manual
> >   auto br0.77
> >   iface br0.77 inet manual
> >   bridge_ports eth0.77
> >   bridge_fd 0
> >   bridge_maxwait 0
> >
> > But again, I just did that blind from the online docs.  I am not a
> > vlan expert.  Feel free to tell me I am wrong and do not know
> > anything.  :-)
> 
> You're bridging in strange/incorrect way. :(
> 
> It's br0.77 that should have an ip address assigned and the physical
> devices should have "inet manual" only.

I don't doubt you.  I suggested that due to the reference here.  In
that it writes that both are possible and lists them as alternatives.

  https://wiki.debian.org/LXC/VlanNetworking

Perhaps someone could update that documentation with the lastest known
best practices?

Bob


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Bob Proulx]

Miles Fidelman wrote:
> for what it's worth, my (working, for years) /etc/network/interfaces
> file looks like this:

In addition to what Tom said, you have redundant network and broadcast
statements.  If you specify the netmask then the network and broadcast
will be calculated from the netmask.

Better to reduce the configuration to the source input and let the
program calculate the dependent parts rather than doing so manually
and possibly making a mistake.  Let the machine calculate it for you.

> iface eth0 inet static
> address 207.154.13.48
> netmask 255.255.255.224
> network 207.154.13.32
> broadcast 207.154.13.63
> ...

Since the netmask is specified the network and broadcast would
normally be calculated from it.  Unless overridden.  This is
sufficient.

address 207.154.13.48
netmask 255.255.255.224

> iface eth0:1 inet static
> address 207.154.13.49
> netmask 255.255.255.224
> broadcast 207.154.13.63

Same thing here.  With netmask the broadcast statement is redundant.

> iface eth0:2 inet static
> address 207.154.13.50
> netmask 255.255.255.224
> broadcast 207.154.13.63

And here.

At one time in the long past the ifupdown examples included all
possible option statements.  Which is typical of examples to show all
of the possibilities and then users can hack it as they need.  But
this ended up with a lot of people thinking that all of those
statements were required and desired.

A year or so ago there was an effort to clean up those redundant
statements from the documentation.  The ifupdown examples no longer
include them.  They have been removed from the fine Debian Reference.
They have been removed from most wiki pages that have been found.  So
I am hinting here to clean them up too.  :-)

Bob


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Bob Proulx]

Steffen Dettmer wrote:
> Bob Proulx wrote:
> > However all of the docs I see just now suggest using a bridge.
> 
> There are docs recommending to take the burden of kernel software
> briding to add an alias IP?!

But you were asking about VLANS not IP aliases!

Not wanting to distract from the discussion between you and Tom I am
going to refrain from saying more about that here and now.

> > Configuring multiple IP addresses on interfaces like that is new in
> > recent versions of ifupdown.
> 
> Wow, this is surprising! I considered it an old basic classic
> standard feature.

Not like that.  Not using the same iface sections repeated again.
That is a new feature.  Previously that required either aliases or
explicit up/down commands.

Oldstable Squeeze 6 had ifupdown 0.6.10.  Stable Wheezy 7 has 0.7.8.
Testing Jessie and Ustable Sid currently have 0.7.44.

The changelog says:

ifupdown (0.7~alpha4) experimental; urgency=low
  * Allow multiple interface definitions to ease work with multiple IP per
interface.

So it looks like that feature went into Wheezy 7 and is available
since.  I tested this on Wheezy 7 and it works for me there.

> > Whether it works or not depends upon the version of the program.
> 
> Amazing.

Why?  Isn't that the way of things?  Time moves forward and creeping
features do too.  Seems very typical and normal to me. :-)

Bob


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Re: Configuring multiple IP addresses on VLAN interface using ifupdown

[Bob Proulx]

Tom H wrote:
> Chris Davies wrote:
> > Tom H wrote:
> >> iface eth3.77 inet static
> >> address 10.0.5.15
> >
> >> iface eth3.77 inet static
> >> address 10.0.5.16
> >
> > The Debian documentation at
> > http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch05.en.html states
> > categorically, « Do not define duplicates of the "iface" stanza for a
> > network interface in "/etc/network/interfaces" ».
> 
> Someone pointed this out the last time that ifupdown's new use of
> iproute was discussed on this list and Bob P. pointed out that the
> documentation hadn't yet caught up with that.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that the last time (six months ago?) Bob linked to a
> Debian wiki page (or I googled my way to one) that used multiple iface
> declarations for the same nic (I've also used multiple declarations).

Yes.  This one.

  
https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkConfiguration#Multiple_IP_addresses_on_One_Interface

And note that in revision 61 2013-07-26 the ifupdown maintainer
updated the wiki page to the present form showing support for the new
style.  I consider that to be an authoritative statement of support.

I just verified that the new style works in Stable Wheezy 7.

Previously the wiki page recommended using up/down commands to create
aliases manually.  That was mostly due to a time when there was bugs
in the ifupdown program that didn't handle ethX:Y style interfaces
correctly.  I personally prefer the up/down style but I know that
others don't like it.  Each to their own.

Bob


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Re: Set widescreen resolution in console

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 16 October 2013 20:23:51 Dmitrii Kashin wrote:
> Lisi Reisz  writes:
> > On Wednesday 16 October 2013 13:14:06 Chris Bannister wrote:
> >> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 09:23:16PM +0400, Dmitrii Kashin wrote:
> >>
> >> "I am not entirely certain but I don't think it has a number
> >> yet, but If it has already then I'd expect it to be Debian 8 or
> >> will be Debian 8 when it has."
> >
> > That is exactly what I meant.
> >
> >> > > would expect it to be Debian 8 eventually.
> >> >
> >> > You're wrong. It has.
> >>
> >> That's a bit harsh.
> >>
> >> IOW, "I believe" appears to be a phrase that a translator would
> >> have to be very careful with. :)
>
> Lisi, due to your and Chris' help I understood that it was not a
> correct answer in this case, which was caused by my
> misunderstanding of language.
>
> I alologize for being rude.

Apology accepted! :-))

Lisi


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Re: E: Unable to locate package libpngwriter0-dev

[Bob Proulx]

don magnify wrote:
> now that have sorted out the sources.list i get this:
> E: Unable to locate package libpngwriter0-dev
> for # apt-get install libpngwriter0-dev
> 
> although http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/libpngwriter0-dev
> 
> my guess is one is squeezing the other is weezing. so how do i force it in?

The pngwriter package, which includes libpngwriter0c2 and
libpngwriter0-dev, were removed from Unstable and Testing on
03 Apr 2011.  See this bug report:

  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=620502

The last update prior to that had been in 2008 according to the PTS.
The last upstream update was in 2009.  Probably still good.  But not
much activity in the last five years.

  http://packages.qa.debian.org/p/pngwriter.html

If you care about the continuing use of that package it would be good
to drum up activity and support for it.  Or perhaps move to whatever
else is currently supported these days.

> do i create a separate sources.list for squeeze?

An excellent resource is snapshot.debian.org.  The previous version in
Debian Squeeze 6 was libpngwriter0-dev 0.5.3-3.

  http://snapshot.debian.org/

Go there.  Search for pngwriter.  Find all of these versions.  Select
one such as the latest.  Download the compatible architecture from there.

  http://snapshot.debian.org/package/pngwriter/0.5.3-3/

Then install it with 'dpkg -i'.  If it has dependencies follow that up
with 'apt-get -f install' to install any additional dependencies.

  # dpkg -i foo-X.Y.deb
  # apt-get -f install

Bob


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Re: shell usage; was Re: xmonad and LXDE.

[Bob Proulx]

peasth...@shaw.ca wrote:
> I've tried to combine on one line and neither of these works.
> $ nohup xmonad > ~/.xsession-errors 2>&1 &  ; disown
> $ nohup xmonad > ~/.xsession-errors 2>&1 & \; disown
> Someone please give a correct syntax.

Try it without the extra ';' there.

  $ nohup xmonad > ~/.xsession-errors 2>&1 & disown

  man bash

   Lists
   A list is a sequence of one or more pipelines separated by one
   of the operators ;, &, &&, or ||, and optionally terminated by
   one of ;, &, or .

The '&' and ';' occupy the same position in the command list.  It is
one or the other but not both.

Bob


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Re: ipad connection

[Verde Denim]

On 10/18/2013 03:15 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 12:55 -0600, Shane Johnson wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Verde Denim  wrote:
>>> I'm thinking its the iPad4/iOS 7.0.2 that's the problem, but not
>>> sure why it just doesn't connect. It keeps asking me for the PIN
>>> and to retry.
> It's not iOS 7.0.2. For the iPad 2 iOS 7.0.2 does only ask
>
> "Trust this computer?", after touching "Trust" it works.
>
>> I could be very wrong on this, but I thought the new generation of
>> apple products where using thunderbolt and not USB.
> No, I did a web search and it still does provide USB.
>
>
>
>
And for my iPad4 it also asks the question "Trust this computer" but
doesn't care if I tell it to "trust" it or not. It doesn't connect.

If this is a usb cable, the iPad is the only device I can see that it
will fit.


-- 
Regards

Jack
Boston Tea Party, Coercive Acts, Powder Alarm, Revolution
Lessons (Mistakes) not learned are bound to be repeated.


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Re: Dying hard drive?

[Gregory Nowak]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 06:26:38PM +0200, Veljko wrote:
> IIUIC, this is output I should be looking:
> 
> sda:
> ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME  FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE  UPDATED  
> WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
>   1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   095   094   006Pre-fail  Always  
>  -   230210521
>   5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   096   096   036Pre-fail  Always  
>  -   5832
> 
> sdb:
>   1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   119   082   006Pre-fail  Always  
>  -   234455192
>   5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   099   099   036Pre-fail  Always  
>  -   2320
> 
> sdc:
>   1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   115   099   006Pre-fail  Always  
>  -   87852008
>   5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036Pre-fail  Always  
>  -   0
> 
> sdd:
>   1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   118   099   006Pre-fail  Always  
>  -   187317944
>   5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036Pre-fail  Always  
>  -   0
> 
> 
> Acording to this, all drives are bad, but only sda behaves badly. Three more
> values are reported as Pre-fail: Spin_Up_Time, Seek_Error_Rate and
> Spin_Retry_Count. Full output for sda:

According to the above, I would say only sda and sdb are bad, sda
being the worst of the two. I stand to be corrected as always.

Greg


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Miles Fidelman]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/18/2013 11:48 AM, Miles Fidelman wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

In the REAL world, program behavior is very much driven by the
properties of underlying hardware.

And... when actually packaging code for compilation and/or installation
- you need to know a lot about what tests to run, and what compile/link
switches to set based on the characteristics of the build and run-time
environments.



Only if you're distributing source code.  Look at the number of 
programs out there which DON'T have source code available. Outside of 
the Linux environment, there is very little source code available 
(other than scripting languages, of course).


And even in Debian, most of the packages you get are binaries; sure, 
you can get the source code and compile it yourself - but it's not 
necessary to do so.


In which case the installers/packages take machine dependencies into 
account.  A package may be cross platform, but you download and install 
a DIFFERENT package for Windows, Macintosh, Solaris, AIX, various 
flavors of Linux (or you have an install CD that has enough smarts to 
detect its environment and install appropriately).



No, it is completely dependent on the compiler being used, as noted
above.


Bulltwaddle.  It also depends on the linker, the libraries, compile-time
switches, and lots of other things.

Given what you have to say, I sure as hell wouldn't hire anybody who's
learned programming from one of your classes.




All of which depends on the compiler.  Compile-time switches are 
dependent on the compiler.  So are the libraries supplied with the 
compiler.  And the linker only has to worry about pointers and such; 
it doesn't care if you're running 16, 32 or even 128 bit integers, for 
instance.


You can take a COBOL compiler and libraries, develop a program with 
100 digit packed decimal numbers.  The linker doesn't care. The OS 
libraries don't care.  The only thing outside of the compiler which 
does matter is the libraries supplied with the compiler itself.


And as soon as you write something that does any i/o you get into all 
kinds of issues regarding install time dependencies, dynamic linking to 
various kernel modules and drivers, etc., etc., etc.




And if my teaching is so bad, why have my customers (mostly Fortune 
500 companies) kept calling me back?  Maybe because my students come 
out of the class knowledgeable and productive?


And my customers (mostly Fortune 500 companies) keep calling me back 
because the programmers I train are productive.


Kind of hard to vet that.  You're JDS Computer Training Corp., right?  
Now web site, no mention in any journals - pretty much all the Google 
shows is a bunch of business listings on sites that auto-scrape business 
registration databases.  And when I search on Jerry Stuckle, all I find 
are a LinkedIn page that lists you as President of SmarTech Homes since 
2003, which in turn has a 1-page, relatively content-free web site 
talking about the benefits of homes with simple automation systems.


Pretty vaporous.

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Re: ipad connection

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 17:40 -0400, Verde Denim wrote:
> On 10/18/2013 03:15 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > On Fri, 2013-10-18 at 12:55 -0600, Shane Johnson wrote:
> >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Verde Denim  wrote:
> >>> I'm thinking its the iPad4/iOS 7.0.2 that's the problem, but not
> >>> sure why it just doesn't connect. It keeps asking me for the PIN
> >>> and to retry.
> > It's not iOS 7.0.2. For the iPad 2 iOS 7.0.2 does only ask
> >
> > "Trust this computer?", after touching "Trust" it works.
> >
> >> I could be very wrong on this, but I thought the new generation of
> >> apple products where using thunderbolt and not USB.
> > No, I did a web search and it still does provide USB.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> And for my iPad4 it also asks the question "Trust this computer" but
> doesn't care if I tell it to "trust" it or not. It doesn't connect.
> 
> If this is a usb cable, the iPad is the only device I can see that it
> will fit.

Have you already sent a request to Apple support? Tested it on another
Linux computer or at least with your computer and another distro/live
distro? Tested with a Windows or MacOS computer?


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Re: Dying hard drive?

[Miles Fidelman]

Gregory Nowak wrote:

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 06:26:38PM +0200, Veljko wrote:

IIUIC, this is output I should be looking:

sda:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME  FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE  UPDATED  
WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
   1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   095   094   006Pre-fail  Always   
-   230210521
   5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   096   096   036Pre-fail  Always   
-   5832

sdb:
   1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   119   082   006Pre-fail  Always   
-   234455192
   5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   099   099   036Pre-fail  Always   
-   2320

sdc:
   1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   115   099   006Pre-fail  Always   
-   87852008
   5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036Pre-fail  Always   
-   0

sdd:
   1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f   118   099   006Pre-fail  Always   
-   187317944
   5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036Pre-fail  Always   
-   0


Acording to this, all drives are bad, but only sda behaves badly. Three more
values are reported as Pre-fail: Spin_Up_Time, Seek_Error_Rate and
Spin_Retry_Count. Full output for sda:

According to the above, I would say only sda and sdb are bad, sda
being the worst of the two. I stand to be corrected as always.




Yeah - that's what it looks like to me as well (having gotten back to a 
screen other than my smartphone).


It also looks like those drives are pretty old:

40 Head_Flying_Hours   0x   100   253   000Old_age   Offline  - 
  174414326932768
241 Total_LBAs_Written  0x   100   253   000Old_age   Offline  
-   23166370191361
242 Total_LBAs_Read 0x   100   253   000Old_age   Offline  
-   174661697951516




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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Miles Fidelman]

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Le 18.10.2013 16:22, Miles Fidelman a écrit :


(though it's pretty hard to get hired for anything in the US
without a bachelorate in something)


I do not think it can be worse than in France.


Ok.  I wasn't sure about that, though France does seem as credential 
crazy as the US.


I was under the impression that European schools tended to have a more 
clearly defined, and distinct "trades school track" (not sure the right 
term to use) than we do in the US - with direction set by testing 
somewhere along the way.





It's certainly possible to learn stuff on one's own, but my
observation is that true depth and bredth requires some amount of
formal education from folks who are already knowledgeable.  It's like
anything - sure there are self-taught violinists, but most who've
achieved a serious level of skill (much less public recognition)
started out taking years and years of lessons.


I do not say that best guys never have years of lessons.
I think that, lessons by knowledgeable people will help you to develop 
your knowledge faster, in only one direction, while the self-learners 
will learn less, and in many directions, so they will probably not be 
as expert.
Then, for both kind of guys, what really matters in the end is how 
many problems they solved ( problems solved, not products released ).



Accomplished craftsmen
(and women) have typically studied and apprenticed in some form.


Self-learners studied, they simply made it themselves.


My sense is that self-learners tend to learn what they're interested in, 
and/or what they need to solve specific problems - whereas formal 
training tends to be more about "what you might need to know" - hence a 
bit broader, and more context.






I sure wouldn't trust a self-taught doctor performing surgery on me -


That's why some professions have needs for legal stuff. We can not 
really compare a doctor with the usual computer scientist, right?
And I said "usual", because most of us do not, and will never work, on 
stuff which can kill someone. And when we do, verification processes 
are quite important ( I hope, at least! ), unlike for doctors which 
have to be careful while they are doing their job, because they can 
not try things and then copy/paste on a real human.


Actually, I would make that comparison.  A doctor's mistakes kill one 
person at a time.  In a lot of situations, mis-behaving software can 
cause 100s, 1000s, maybe 100s of 1000s of lives - airplane crash, power 
outage, bug in a piece of medical equiptment (say a class of 
pacemakers), flaws in equipment as a result of faulty design software, 
failure in a weapons system, etc.  Software failures can also cause huge 
financial losses - ranging from spacecraft that go off course (remember 
the case a few years ago where someone used meters instead of feet, or 
vice versa in some critical navigational calculation?), to outages of 
stock exchanges (a week or so ago), and so forth.




Ok, but now we're talking an apples to oranges comparison. Installing
developers tools is a pain, no matter what environment. For fancy,
non-standard stuff, "apt-get install foo" beats everything out there,
and "./configure; make install" is pretty straightforward (assuming
you have the pre-requisites installed).




But when it comes to packaging up software for delivery to
users/customers; it sure seems like it's easier to install something
on Windows or a Mac than anything else.  Slip in the installation CD
and click start.


You mean, something like that ?
http://packages.debian.org/fr/squeeze/gdebi
http://packages.debian.org/fr/wheezy/gdebi


Seems to be that there's a huge difference between:
- buy a laptop pre-loaded with Windows, and slip in an MS Office DVD, and
- buy a laptop, download debian onto a DVD, run the installer, get all 
the non-free drivers installed, then apt-get install openoffice and wade 
through all the recommended and suggested optional packages - and then, 
maybe, have to deal with issues around which JRE you have installed?


Just for reference, I use a Mac and mostly commercial software for 
office kinds of stuff, plus a company-provided Dell running Windows - 
both running MS Office.  Now my SERVER farm is all Debian.  I will note, 
that for a lot of server-side stuff (particularly my mail processing and 
list manager) I find I get much better results (and newer code) by 
compiling from source, than by using the package system.



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Re: Logitech unified wireless

[Catherine Gramze]

On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 17:17:56 +0200
Gareth de Vaux  wrote:

> 
> I could use the keyboard/mouse in the BIOS from the start fine.
> I do need to redo the pairing on each boot in the OS though.
> 
> If anyone's interested:
>snip

Odd. Once paired using my Mac my mouse and keyboard have remained
paired. No problems at all.


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Miles Fidelman]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/17/2013 10:32 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:





So, what you name an OS is only drivers+kernel? If so, then ok. But
some people consider that it includes various other tools which does
not require hardware accesses. I spoke about graphical applications,
and you disagree. Matter of opinion, or maybe I did not used the
good ones, I do not know.
So, what about dpkg in debian? Is it a part of the OS? Is not it a
ring 3 program? As for tar or shell?



Boy do you like to raise issues that go into semantic grey areas :-)


Not specially, but, to say that C has been made to build OSes only,
you then have to determine what is an OS to make the previous
statement useful. For that, I simply searched 3 different sources on
the web, and all of them said that simple applications are part of the
OS. Applications like file browsers and terminal emulators.
Without using the same words for the same concepts, we can never
understand the other :)


I'm pretty sure that C was NOT written to build operating systems -
though it's been used for that (notably Unix).



Yes, it was.  It was developed in the late 60's and early 70's at 
AT&T's Bell Labs specifically to create Unix.



To quote from the first sentence of the Preface to the classic C book,
"The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and Ritchie, published by Bell
Labs in 1978 (pretty authoritative given that Ritchie was one of C's
authors):

"C is a general-purpose programming language "



Yes, the book came out around 1978 - several years AFTER C was 
initially developed (and used to create Unix), and after people had 
started to use C for applications programs.


Good point.  After reading your email, I did a little more digging, and 
found a wonderful conference paper - also by Dennis Ritchie - talking 
about the origins and development of C in gorry detail.  A pretty 
definitive source (given that he wrote C), and a good read: 
http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/chist.html


It wasn't exactly written "specifically to create Unix" - to quote 
Ritchie "C came into being in the years 1969-1973, in parallel with the 
early development of the Unix operating system; the most creative period 
occurred during 1972."


It was, however, developed in reaction to shortcomings in the languages 
used to create the earliest versions of Unix (PDP-7 assembler, and then 
B - insprired by BCPL).





Now there ARE "systems programming" languages that were created for the
specific purpose of writing operating systems, compilers, and other
systems software.  BCPL comes to mind.  PL360 and PL/S come to mind from
the IBM world.  As I recall, Burroughs used ALGOL to build operating
systems, and Multics used PL/1.



I don't remember an OS built on ALGOL.  That must have been an 
experience? :)  I didn't use PL360, but PL/S was basically a subset of 
PL/1 with inline assembler capabilities.  It was nice in that it took 
care of some of the "grunt work" (like do and while loops and if 
statements).


I THINK Burroughs used Algol as a systems programming language.  But 
it's been a long time.






I'd simply make the observation that most SQL queries are generated on
the fly, by code - so the notion of building SQL requests to "experts"
is a non-starter.  Someone has to write the code that in turn generates
SQL requests.


Not in my experience.  I've found far more SQL statements are coded 
into the program, with variables or bind parameters for data which 
changes.


Think about it - the code following a SELECT statement has to know 
what the SELECT statement returned.  It wouldn't make a lot of sense 
to change the tables, columns, etc. being used.


And in some RDBMS's (i.e. DB2), the static SQL statements are parsed 
and stored in the database by a preprocessor, eliminating significant 
overhead during execution time.




I've seen a lot of utilities for browsing databases - that basically 
build SELECT statements for you.  I expect that this only gets more 
complicated in building data mining applications.




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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Miles Fidelman]

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Le 18.10.2013 17:50, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

And, again, just a guess, but I'm guessing the huge percentage of
programmers these days are writing .NET code on vanilla Windows 
machines

(not that I like it, but it does seem to be a fact of life). A lot of
people also seem to be writing stored SQL procedures to run on MS SQL.



Bad guess.  .NET is way down the list of popularity (much to
Microsoft's chagrin).  COBOL is still number 1; C/C++ still way
surpass .NET.  And MSSQL is well behind MySQL in the number of
installations (I think Oracle is still #1 with DB2 #2).


I wonder where did you had those numbers?
Usually, in various studies, COBOL is not even in the 5 firsts. I do 
not say that those studies are pertinent, they are obviously not, 
since their methods always shows problems. But, it does not means that 
they are completely wrong, and I mostly use them as very vague 
indicators.
So, I would like were you had your indicators, I may find that 
interesting for various reasons.


Yeah.  I kind of quesiton those numbers as well.

The sources I tend to check:
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
http://langpop.com/
both have C and Java shooting it out for top spot

http://trendyskills.com/ (analysis of job postings)
has JavaScript, Java, and C# battling it out

COBOL is in the noise.




I expect that there are NOT a lot of people writing production code to
run on Debian, expect for use on internal servers.  When it comes to
writing Unix code for Government or Corporate environments, or for
products that run on Unix, the target is usually either Solaris, AIX
(maybe), and Red Hat.



I would say not necessarily writing for Debian, but writing for Linux
in general is pretty popular, and getting more so.


I think smartphones gave a ray of light.



If you broaden your horizons to Unix - there's lots of demand.


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