Re: Bookworm VPS image and cron

[Geert Stappers]

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 02:00:42PM -0700, Steve Sobol wrote:
> On 2023-08-05 13:23, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> > On 5 Aug 2023 22:13 +0200, from johndoe65...@mail.com (john doe):
> > > > But cron isn't installed.
> > > 
> > > I just install a new Bookworm VM and 'cron' is present! :)
> > 
> > Ditto. That must be some customization your VPS provider has made, if
> > the installation didn't somehow fail.
> 
> I'll talk to them. The VPS was acting quite strangely, anyhow, and rather
> than fight with Bookworm, I nuked the VPS and created another one from their
> bullseye image.

 :-)
 
> > Or you could ask your VPS provider why they aren't providing
> > "important" packages in their default image.
> 
> This is the first time it's happened. Of the Linux images I've used there,
> Ubuntu 14.04, 16.04, 18.04, 20.04, 22.04, and Debian bullseye all shipped
> with cron properly installed. Come to think of it... I just checked a local
> bookworm VM I'm running at home, and it has cron installed, too. I'll open a
> ticket.

Please keep us posted.

 
> Thanks :)
 
Thank you for reporting the good find.

 
Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
Silence is hard to parse


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Crossgrade instructions seem broken

[Brian Sammon]

There's two approaches I would consider here:

If you know exactly which packages you want downloaded, I think you can use 
"apt-get download" to just download the packages you tell it to, and it will 
ignore all dependency requirements, and not download any other packages.  This 
would be a partial improvement over using wget.

If you want apt to download the packages you ask for and figure out what other 
packages it should download so that all the dependencies can be satisfied, then 
you may have to fix your "apt --download-only" invocation.
I would try going from

> #apt --download-only install dpkg:amd64 tar:amd64 apt:amd64

to something like
   apt --download-only install dpkg:amd64 tar:amd64 apt:amd64 dpkg:i386- 
tar:i386- apt:i386-

It seems to me that apt is (ignoring the --download-only at this point of the 
process) assuming that you are asking to install a _second_ instance of dpkg, a 
_second_ instance of tar, and a second instance of apt, and deciding that that 
is not possible/allowed.  So telling it explicitly to find a solution that 
involves uninstalling the i386 versions of those packages may allow it to 
proceed to the "actually do something" part of the process, where it will 
notice the "--download-only" part, and download the debs for the packages it 
decided you need to install, and do nothing for the packages it decided you 
need to uninstall.

I'm not 100% sure about all of this, in part because my experience is with 
"apt-get" instead of "apt".

Re: /etc/resolv.conf changes every booting time

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 10:52:35PM -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 10:27 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 10:05:31PM -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> > > On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 9:13 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Sun, Aug 06, 2023 at 09:28:55AM +0800, Jon Smart wrote:
> > > > > How to stop the auto-changes to /etc/resolv.conf after rebooting?
> > > >
> > > > https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf
> > > >
> > >
> > > Contrary to what that page states, auto changes to resolv.conf are never
> > > appropriate in the server environment. The statement there that it works
> > > fine in a "properly configured server" is the boilerplate escape hatch
> > for
> > > that inconvenient fact :-)
> >
> > Those words do not appear on that page.  I don't know which sentence(s)
> > you're actually referring to.
> 
> 
> I'm referring to these exact words:
> "It also works well for many desktop and server systems, so long as the
> network infrastructure is perfect."
> 
> Its a red herring because the DNS infrastructure in a data center is static
> at the IP address and host name level. And I feel certain that any network
> infrastructure constructed by humans is imperfect to some degree.
> There's their escape hatch.

Not all Debian systems are in a "data center".  Sometimes they're on a
home network, or a workplace network.  In both of those environments,
the DHCP server may be questionable -- either because it's being provided
by a cheap router (home), or because it's being managed by a different
department (workplace).

Some workplaces require the use of DHCP to configure network interfaces,
even when the DHCP server behaves in a way you do not wish.  For example,
it may offer DNS nameservers that are not the ones you want to use.  So,
many of us are running Debian systems where the IP address has to come
from DHCP, for political reasons, but the DNS servers that would come
from DHCP are *undesired*.

Therefore, we want to edit /etc/resolv.conf ourselves, and not let the
DHCP client daemon, or any other program, change it.

Therefore, this wiki page.

Do you have a specific wording change you'd like to see?

Is there any part of the page that is actually *incorrect*?

Are there any alternative solutions that are *missing*?

Re: /etc/resolv.conf changes every booting time

[Nicholas Geovanis]

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 10:27 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 10:05:31PM -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 9:13 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, Aug 06, 2023 at 09:28:55AM +0800, Jon Smart wrote:
> > > > How to stop the auto-changes to /etc/resolv.conf after rebooting?
> > >
> > > https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf
> > >
> >
> > Contrary to what that page states, auto changes to resolv.conf are never
> > appropriate in the server environment. The statement there that it works
> > fine in a "properly configured server" is the boilerplate escape hatch
> for
> > that inconvenient fact :-)
>
> Those words do not appear on that page.  I don't know which sentence(s)
> you're actually referring to.


I'm referring to these exact words:
"It also works well for many desktop and server systems, so long as the
network infrastructure is perfect."

Its a red herring because the DNS infrastructure in a data center is static
at the IP address and host name level. And I feel certain that any network
infrastructure constructed by humans is imperfect to some degree.
There's their escape hatch.

The closest thing I see there is "so
> long as the network infrastructure is perfect", which refers to the DHCP
> server, not the Debian system.
>
> A lot of us run Debian systems on networks where we DO NOT CONTROL the
> DHCP server, and have to work around it.  That's what the introduction
> of the page is talking about.
>
> In any case, appeasing EVERY reader is impossible.  I have to use vague
> wording to try to make sure nobody is offended that their personal
> preference configuration is not snubbed.  No matter how utterly batshit
> insane such a configuration may be from my point of view.
>
> I'm also forced to relegate the chattr solution to the end of the page,
> and couch it in caveats, because some people think that it's wrong.
> They can't say WHY it's wrong, of course.  Maybe because it's too simple
> and effective.  I dunno.
>
> People are horrible sometimes.
>
> With all that in mind, and considering that this is a WIKI and you may
> edit it your damned SELF if you disagree with the content, what is your
> actual disagreement?
>
>

Re: /etc/resolv.conf changes every booting time

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 10:05:31PM -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 9:13 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Aug 06, 2023 at 09:28:55AM +0800, Jon Smart wrote:
> > > How to stop the auto-changes to /etc/resolv.conf after rebooting?
> >
> > https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf
> >
> 
> Contrary to what that page states, auto changes to resolv.conf are never
> appropriate in the server environment. The statement there that it works
> fine in a "properly configured server" is the boilerplate escape hatch for
> that inconvenient fact :-)

Those words do not appear on that page.  I don't know which sentence(s)
you're actually referring to.  The closest thing I see there is "so
long as the network infrastructure is perfect", which refers to the DHCP
server, not the Debian system.

A lot of us run Debian systems on networks where we DO NOT CONTROL the
DHCP server, and have to work around it.  That's what the introduction
of the page is talking about.

In any case, appeasing EVERY reader is impossible.  I have to use vague
wording to try to make sure nobody is offended that their personal
preference configuration is not snubbed.  No matter how utterly batshit
insane such a configuration may be from my point of view.

I'm also forced to relegate the chattr solution to the end of the page,
and couch it in caveats, because some people think that it's wrong.
They can't say WHY it's wrong, of course.  Maybe because it's too simple
and effective.  I dunno.

People are horrible sometimes.

With all that in mind, and considering that this is a WIKI and you may
edit it your damned SELF if you disagree with the content, what is your
actual disagreement?

Re: Adding backup storage

[Dan Ritter]

David Christensen wrote: 
> On 8/5/23 12:03, gene heskett wrote:
> > What doc should I follow to bring these 2 drives into one volume managed
> > partition for amanda's use as a vtape device? I'd assume the volume
> > management works by now, but it was a data losing disaster 15+ years ago
> > when I last tried it.
> > 

> I agree with other readers that using two SSD's in RAID1 as Amanda backup
> media seems unusual, but ZFS can easily accomplish this:

Gene is asking for RAID0, I believe, which is why I advised
against it.

Amanda is perfectly capable of believing that two filesystems
are two tapes, and spanning backups as necessary across them.

-dsr-

Re: /etc/resolv.conf changes every booting time

[Nicholas Geovanis]

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 9:13 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 06, 2023 at 09:28:55AM +0800, Jon Smart wrote:
> > How to stop the auto-changes to /etc/resolv.conf after rebooting?
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf
>

Contrary to what that page states, auto changes to resolv.conf are never
appropriate in the server environment. The statement there that it works
fine in a "properly configured server" is the boilerplate escape hatch for
that inconvenient fact :-)

Re: /etc/resolv.conf changes every booting time

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Aug 06, 2023 at 09:28:55AM +0800, Jon Smart wrote:
> How to stop the auto-changes to /etc/resolv.conf after rebooting?

https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf

Re: /etc/resolv.conf changes every booting time

[jeremy ardley]

On 6/8/23 09:28, Jon Smart wrote:

Hello

I have removed the default systemd-resolved local dns service following
the link below,

https://askubuntu.com/questions/907246/how-to-disable-systemd-resolved-in-ubuntu

And I have unbound installed and enabled as local DNS server.

But every time I reboot the server, the configuration file
/etc/resolv.conf changes to a default one. So every time I have to update
its content to:

nameserver 127.0.0.1

(points to unbound)

How to stop the auto-changes to /etc/resolv.conf after rebooting?

Thanks.



What is the new contents of /etc/resolv.conf?

If it mentions NetworkManager then that is the cause of your problems 
and you will have to follow web instructions to change NetworkManager 
behaviour.

/etc/resolv.conf changes every booting time

[Jon Smart]

Hello

I have removed the default systemd-resolved local dns service following
the link below,

https://askubuntu.com/questions/907246/how-to-disable-systemd-resolved-in-ubuntu

And I have unbound installed and enabled as local DNS server.

But every time I reboot the server, the configuration file
/etc/resolv.conf changes to a default one. So every time I have to update
its content to:

nameserver 127.0.0.1

(points to unbound)

How to stop the auto-changes to /etc/resolv.conf after rebooting?

Thanks.

Re: Adding backup storage

[David Christensen]

On 8/5/23 12:03, gene heskett wrote:

I've an asus mobo with 6 sata ports, 5 are busy.

I also have another 6 port with 4 ports tied up serving a raid 10 for 
/home.  That leaves 2 ports empty on that controller.


I have a handful of 2T SSD's. If I can find another 4 pin empty pigtail 
on the psu, I'll plug 2 of these 2T's into that aux controller,


What doc should I follow to bring these 2 drives into one volume managed 
partition for amanda's use as a vtape device? I'd assume the volume 
management works by now, but it was a data losing disaster 15+ years ago 
when I last tried it.


I could, since amanda is quite versatile, set it up as two separate 
vtape drives.  So I'm open to a pro/con discussion.  Thanks all.


Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.



I agree with other readers that using two SSD's in RAID1 as Amanda 
backup media seems unusual, but ZFS can easily accomplish this:


https://wiki.debian.org/ZFS


Creating a ZFS pool of mirrored drives is a one-liner (untested code):

# zpool create tank mirror /dev/sde /dev/sdf


See zpool(8) for details.


The above command will create a ZFS pool that presents a default file 
system mounted at:


/tank


You can use a ZFS pool root file system just like any other Unix file 
system -- create/read/update/delete files/directories, run userland 
tools, system services, etc. --  but most people create additional file 
systems within their pools.  This allows them to assign different ZFS 
property values to different file systems and/or (untested code):


# zfs create -p tank/amanda/vtape

# zfs set mountpoint=/var/amanda/vtape tank/amanda/vtape

# zfs set compression=on tank/amanda/vtape

# zfs create tank/amanda/vtape/amanda-vtape-1

# zfs create tank/amanda/vtape/amanda-vtape-2

# zfs create tank/amanda/vtape/amanda-vtape-3


See zfs(8) for details.


The above commands will present file systems mounted at:

/var/amanda/vtape/amanda-vtape-1

/var/amanda/vtape/amanda-vtape-2

/var/amanda/vtape/amanda-vtape-3


Beware that ZFS is not natively supported on Debian due to license 
incompatibilities.  So, you will need to install ZFS packages.  It is 
wise to also install Debian and the ZFS packages onto a USB flash drive, 
so that you have a tool available for system administration and/or 
rescue operations.



David

Re: Adding backup storage

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 03:03:54PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> What doc should I follow to bring these 2 drives into one volume managed
> partition for amanda's use as a vtape device? I'd assume the volume
> management works by now, but it was a data losing disaster 15+ years ago
> when I last tried it.
> 
> I could, since amanda is quite versatile, set it up as two separate vtape
> drives.  So I'm open to a pro/con discussion.  Thanks all.

I don't know Amanda. If that is simple, and the redundancy (what you
lose when a drive dies) is managed in Amanda so that it's not
catastrophic to you, then I recommend that you do this.

I don't think that volume management on Linux has got any simpler in
the last 15 years and I strongly suspect that your earlier woes were
user error, so it's even more important to go with something that
you are familiar with.

Myself, without Amanda in the picture, I would RAID-1 them and put
them in LVM, or btrfs mirror them. But I'm explicitly advising you
not to do this if you had problems with it 15 years ago.

Do bear in mind that SSDs are not designed for long term unpowered
data storage, unlike conventional HDDs, so that could be a
consideration if you're intending to use these SSDs stored outside
of a computer and unpowered, tape replacement style. Apologies if
you knew that already.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Adding backup storage

[Charles Curley]

On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:03:54 -0400
gene heskett  wrote:

> I've an asus mobo with 6 sata ports, 5 are busy.
> 
> I also have another 6 port with 4 ports tied up serving a raid 10 for 
> /home.  That leaves 2 ports empty on that controller.
> 
> I have a handful of 2T SSD's. If I can find another 4 pin empty
> pigtail on the psu, I'll plug 2 of these 2T's into that aux
> controller,
> 
> What doc should I follow to bring these 2 drives into one volume
> managed partition for amanda's use as a vtape device? I'd assume the
> volume management works by now, but it was a data losing disaster 15+
> years ago when I last tried it.
> 
> I could, since amanda is quite versatile, set it up as two separate 
> vtape drives.  So I'm open to a pro/con discussion.  Thanks all.

The first thing I wonder is whether you are going to overload your
power supply by adding all these peripherals. Do the math.

To answer your question, I would use LVM to combine the two new physical
drives into one volume group, build logical volumes to suit, then
encrypt on top of that, then put an ext4 file system on each of those.
If you are only going to put vtapes on the two new drives, I'd go for
one logical partition and leave it at that.

I have a rather different setup: An SSD with all the usual partitions,
/home, /, /boot, etc. Then four 4TB hard drives. The hard drives are
set up as one RAID 5, with one spare drive. The RAID device (md0) is
encrypted. On top of that, one LVM physical volume. Half of that is in
one logical volume with an ext4 file system, the rest so far
unallocated.

My amanda vtapes (virtual tapes) are on the RAID logical volume. I also
use rsnapshot to back up portions of the SSD every four hours to the
RAID's logical volume.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Bookworm - cron?

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 02:01:40PM -0700, Steve Sobol wrote:
> On 2023-08-05 13:16, Andy Smith wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 12:53:08PM -0700, Steve Sobol wrote:
> > > Part of my standard procedure for setting up new VMs involves
> > > editing root's
> > > crontab.
> > > 
> > > But cron isn't installed.
> > 
> > Seems unlikely. There are system cron jobs that are not yet
> > converted to systemd timers. A bookworm install I did just yesterday
> > has cron jobs in /etc/cron.d/ that require the "cron" package.

[this bit not actually true, it seems!]

> > What are you typing to edit root's crontab? What output do you get
> > that you don't expect?
> 
> crontab -e
> 
> Bash tells me that the "crontab" command wasn't found.
> 
> dpkg -l |grep cron returned nothing.

I think you must be right then. In another email I mentioned that I
checked a minimal install and all the system cron jobs that were
installed did already have systemd timers, so they are no-ops that
don't require crond.

So as Greg mentioned, just install package "cron".

Or you could do your root crontab entry as a systemd timer, if you'd
rather not install and run crond just for that.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Bookworm - cron?

[Steve Sobol]

On 2023-08-05 13:16, Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 12:53:08PM -0700, Steve Sobol wrote:
Part of my standard procedure for setting up new VMs involves editing 
root's

crontab.

But cron isn't installed.


Seems unlikely. There are system cron jobs that are not yet
converted to systemd timers. A bookworm install I did just yesterday
has cron jobs in /etc/cron.d/ that require the "cron" package.

What are you typing to edit root's crontab? What output do you get
that you don't expect?


crontab -e

Bash tells me that the "crontab" command wasn't found.

dpkg -l |grep cron returned nothing.

Re: Bookworm - cron?

[Steve Sobol]

On 2023-08-05 13:23, Michael Kjörling wrote:

On 5 Aug 2023 22:13 +0200, from johndoe65...@mail.com (john doe):

But cron isn't installed.


I just install a new Bookworm VM and 'cron' is present! :)


Ditto. That must be some customization your VPS provider has made, if
the installation didn't somehow fail.


I'll talk to them. The VPS was acting quite strangely, anyhow, and 
rather than fight with Bookworm, I nuked the VPS and created another one 
from their bullseye image.



Or you could ask your VPS provider why they aren't providing
"important" packages in their default image.


This is the first time it's happened. Of the Linux images I've used 
there, Ubuntu 14.04, 16.04, 18.04, 20.04, 22.04, and Debian bullseye all 
shipped with cron properly installed. Come to think of it... I just 
checked a local bookworm VM I'm running at home, and it has cron 
installed, too. I'll open a ticket.


Thanks :)

Crossgrade instructions seem broken

[Alex King]

I'm trying to crossgrade a bullseye system (from i386 to amd64). The 
machine is headless (with no graphical display and it's also difficult 
to access a console), so I'm doing it over ssh.


In preparation I've switched from systemd to sysvinit (due to the 
warning on the crossgrade page), and also installed busybox-static:amd64 
and have a "busybox ash" shell running (in case of trouble).


I'm following https://wiki.debian.org/CrossGrading, but at the step:


 Crossgrade `dpkg` `tar` and `apt`

I get:

#apt --download-only install dpkg:amd64 tar:amd64 apt:amd64
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 apt : Conflicts: apt:amd64 but 2.6.1 is to be installed
apt:amd64 : Conflicts: apt but 2.6.1 is to be installed
 dpkg : Conflicts: dpkg:amd64
 dpkg:amd64 : Conflicts: dpkg
 tar : Conflicts: tar:amd64
 tar:amd64 : Conflicts: tar
E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be 
caused by held packages.


It seems like perhaps the bookworm version of apt has some extra 
restrictions about installing other arch binary packages, and won't even 
download them for me.  This is pretty inconvenient.


Does anyone know any force- or allow- that will persuade apt or apt-get 
to do this?  I tried --allow-remove-essential.  No luck.


I'll continue using wget, dpkg and manual dependency resolution. Maybe 
someone has some clues for me?


Thanks,
Alex

Re: Adding backup storage

[Dan Ritter]

gene heskett wrote: 
> I've an asus mobo with 6 sata ports, 5 are busy.
> 
> I also have another 6 port with 4 ports tied up serving a raid 10 for /home.
> That leaves 2 ports empty on that controller.
> 
> I have a handful of 2T SSD's. If I can find another 4 pin empty pigtail on
> the psu, I'll plug 2 of these 2T's into that aux controller,
> 
> What doc should I follow to bring these 2 drives into one volume managed
> partition for amanda's use as a vtape device? I'd assume the volume
> management works by now, but it was a data losing disaster 15+ years ago
> when I last tried it.
> 
> I could, since amanda is quite versatile, set it up as two separate vtape
> drives.  So I'm open to a pro/con discussion.  Thanks all.

Set it up as two drives. There are no advantages to doing it
another way (that preserves all the capacity), only
disadvantages.

If you have the money available, I would consider using an SSD
as a spool drive and a big spinning disk on the other port as
the 'tape'. But maybe you aren't going to need more than 4 TB of
backup storage; I dunno.

-dsr-

Re: Bookworm - cron?

[Andy Smith]

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 08:16:57PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 12:53:08PM -0700, Steve Sobol wrote:
> > But cron isn't installed.
> 
> Seems unlikely. There are system cron jobs that are not yet
> converted to systemd timers. A bookworm install I did just yesterday
> has cron jobs in /etc/cron.d/ that require the "cron" package.

As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, I've now checked this and the
default install that I did got these system cron jobs:

/etc/cron.d/e2scrub_all
/etc/cron.d/ntpsec
/etc/cron.daily/man-db
/etc/cron.daily/apt-compat
/etc/cron.daily/logrotate
/etc/cron.daily/dpkg
/etc/cron.weekly/man-db

…all of which have systemd timers which take precedence, so aren't
actually used.

So I take it back: it does seem possible to have a functioning
minimal Debian install without cron and without going to any great
effort to create your own systemd timers.

Though I am sure there's still plenty of packages with cron jobs and
not timers (yet).

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Bookworm - cron?

[Andy Smith]

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 08:31:13PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 08:23:19PM +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> > Ditto. That must be some customization your VPS provider has made, if
> > the installation didn't somehow fail.
> 
> I don't know why a hosting company would put in the effort to
> convert the system cron jobs to systemd timers though

Having had a look at the system cron jobs that end up installed by
default, every single one of them does have a systemd timer that
executes instead of them, so I think I must take it back and say
that it does seem to be possible to get a functioning Debian install
without the cron package these days!

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Bookworm - cron?

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 08:23:19PM +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 5 Aug 2023 22:13 +0200, from johndoe65...@mail.com (john doe):
> >> But cron isn't installed.
> > 
> > I just install a new Bookworm VM and 'cron' is present! :)
> 
> Ditto. That must be some customization your VPS provider has made, if
> the installation didn't somehow fail.

I don't know why a hosting company would put in the effort to
convert the system cron jobs to systemd timers though, which is why
I find the claim that OP has a working Debian 12 VM without cron to
be unlikely. Unless as you say, they don't have a working Debian
12.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Bookworm - cron?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 12:53:08PM -0700, Steve Sobol wrote:
> My VPS provider [...]

> But cron isn't installed.
> 
> What am I expected to use instead? (I assume that I *could* install cron,
> but there must be a reason it's not installed by default anymore, right?)

Just install it.  Do not waste time wondering why your VPS provider didn't
install it.  You could *ask* them, and they may even answer, but that's
just an intellectual diversion.

If you want cron, install cron.  Don't overthink it.

Re: Bookworm - cron?

[Michael Kjörling]

On 5 Aug 2023 22:13 +0200, from johndoe65...@mail.com (john doe):
>> But cron isn't installed.
> 
> I just install a new Bookworm VM and 'cron' is present! :)

Ditto. That must be some customization your VPS provider has made, if
the installation didn't somehow fail.

I did an installation based on my preseed file at [1] with 12.0
upgraded to latest, and after installation, `dpkg -l '*cron*'` shows
the "cron" package as installed on the VM, and `apt-cache show cron`
shows it as having "Priority: important". That one is fairly
minimalistic and only installs the "standard" and "ssh-server" tasks.


>> What am I expected to use instead?

I guess you could use systemd timers, if that installation is set up
with systemd.

Or you could ask your VPS provider why they aren't providing
"important" packages in their default image.

 [1] https://michael.kjorling.se/debian-12-bookworm-preseed/

-- 
Michael Kjörling 🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Gradle version in bookworm

[Steve Sobol]

On 2023-08-05 12:12, Anders Andersson wrote:



Impossible, fake news. It's Java. When I still coded C and assembly in
the nineties everyone told me that Java would solve the issue of
portability forever. Write once, run anywhere! Just run it, no
worries!


Ahhh... I don't know what com.gradle.enterprise is, but I'm guessing 
it's not in the Gradle distributions I download from gradle.org.


So, before you share any more snark about Java... I'm running Gradle 8 
on at least one Debian VPS. And all I had to do was download it, untar 
and put it somewhere, and ensure that I had a recent JVM on that server.


Note that I downloaded the OSS version of Gradle from gradle.org, not 
Gradle Enterprise from gradle.com.

Re: Gradle version in bookworm

[Steve Sobol]

On 2023-08-05 09:50, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:


However, it seems like there are rather serious blocking issues that
have halted progress.


When I need Gradle (whether on Mac, Linux or Windows), I just download 
the latest version, put it somewhere and use it. I do the same thing 
with Java VMs.


Gradle 4 is beyond ancient. The Bullseye VPS I'm looking at right now is 
running Gradle 8.0.2.

Re: Bookworm - cron?

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 12:53:08PM -0700, Steve Sobol wrote:
> Part of my standard procedure for setting up new VMs involves editing root's
> crontab.
> 
> But cron isn't installed.

Seems unlikely. There are system cron jobs that are not yet
converted to systemd timers. A bookworm install I did just yesterday
has cron jobs in /etc/cron.d/ that require the "cron" package.

What are you typing to edit root's crontab? What output do you get
that you don't expect?

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

"What should one say after making love?  ``Thank you'' seems too much.
 ``I'm sorry'' - somehow not enough." — The League Against Tedium

Re: Bookworm - cron?

[john doe]

On 8/5/23 21:53, Steve Sobol wrote:

Crazy question:

My VPS provider just started offering bookworm images. So when I set up
a new server yesterday, I installed bookworm.

Part of my standard procedure for setting up new VMs involves editing
root's crontab.

But cron isn't installed.

What am I expected to use instead? (I assume that I *could* install
cron, but there must be a reason it's not installed by default anymore,
right?)



I just install a new Bookworm VM and 'cron' is present! :)

--
John Doe

Bookworm - cron?

[Steve Sobol]

Crazy question:

My VPS provider just started offering bookworm images. So when I set up 
a new server yesterday, I installed bookworm.


Part of my standard procedure for setting up new VMs involves editing 
root's crontab.


But cron isn't installed.

What am I expected to use instead? (I assume that I *could* install 
cron, but there must be a reason it's not installed by default anymore, 
right?)


Thanks :)

Re: logging no longer standard?

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 08:03:27PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:09:41 +
> Andy Smith  wrote:
> > For those of us who do care, installing rsyslog takes seconds.
> > Disabling the systemd journal (if you want to)_ takes another few
> > seconds. This email took longer.
> 
> But will the syslogs continue 'for the foreseeable future' or are there
> already plans to drop them from Debian?

For syslog to be gone from Debian, every maintainer of every syslog
implementation would have to decide to abandon their work. As these
are very popular packages, that does not seem likely.

I suppose it could happen though, if journald got all the features
of every syslogd. Still one of the design goals of journald was the
structured (binary format) logging whereas plain text logging is a
very popular syslog feature, so that still doesn't seem likely.

Who can tell though? It all rests on individuals wanting to do the
work in Debian.

> > The release notes in particular are essential reading since
> > otherwise a person won't know about major components that have
> > changed, been replaced etc.
> 
> Indeed, but they just tell us *what* stuff has changed, The job of
> finding out what has to be actually done in order to continue doing
> whatever we do, still has to be done, and that's time wasted. Obviously
> things have to change, but backwards compatibility is very important to
> minimise such wasted time, as far as possible.

Have you actually read the part of the Debian release notes we're
talking about? I seem to recall them being very clear. journalctl is
very well documented. And if you prefer then it only takes a few
seconds to install rsyslog at which point logging is exactly like it
was in the previous release.

It's really hard for me to see this as a big deal. I don't know what
Debian could have done better, since pleasing all of the people all
of the time isn't a realistic option.

If you DO have good ideas for improvement, by the way, it is
possible to submit patches to the release notes. I've had a couple
of minor things accepted post-release. It's definitely a living
document. So something positive can be contributed.

> it's something else to learn, a bit more running just to stay
> still.

I don't know what to say to you. Computer use just doesn't stay
static. There isn't a single product, platform, operating system,
application or really ANYTHING in computing that I could point you
to that doesn't change.

The idea that it's "just to stay still" is similar to saying it is
"just change for change's sake", which is a common complaint when
confronted by change that we don't approve of. It does happen to a
degree, for sure - developers prefer making new things than they do
perfecting old things. Twenty years ago Jamie Zawinsky called Linux
a Cadre of Attention-Deficit Teenagers:
. But most changes are done
because someone somewhere sees value in them. Even if you or I don't
always particularly appreciate it the way that they do.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail.
 — John Levine

Re: Gradle version in bookworm

[Anders Andersson]

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 6:51 PM Roberto C. Sánchez  wrote:
>
> On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 05:21:55PM +0100, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> > Gradle is not some minority, hardly-used tool, so there is presumably
> > a reason why the package hasn't been updated in Debian. Anyone know
> > what it is?
> >
> Becuase it's Very Hard Work(TM).
>
> Updating Gradle in Debian was proposed as a project under Freexian's
> Project Funding initiative and it was accepted and work was done on it
> for several months:
> https://salsa.debian.org/freexian-team/project-funding/-/issues/19
>
> However, it seems like there are rather serious blocking issues that
> have halted progress.

Impossible, fake news. It's Java. When I still coded C and assembly in
the nineties everyone told me that Java would solve the issue of
portability forever. Write once, run anywhere! Just run it, no
worries!

Re: logging no longer standard?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 08:03:27PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:09:41 +
> Andy Smith  wrote:
> > The release notes in particular are essential reading since
> > otherwise a person won't know about major components that have
> > changed, been replaced etc.
> 
> Indeed, but they just tell us *what* stuff has changed, The job of
> finding out what has to be actually done in order to continue doing
> whatever we do, still has to be done, and that's time wasted.

In some cases, the release notes actually do tell you how to get back
to normal.

Where they don't, the wiki almost always does.  At least, the changes
that *I* make to it place a very high priority on providing simple,
clear instructions for how to adapt to Debian's changes.  Obviously I
can't speak for every wiki editor, but that's kinda the point.  The
wiki is *our* resource for sharing solutions with each other.

Adding backup storage

[gene heskett]

I've an asus mobo with 6 sata ports, 5 are busy.

I also have another 6 port with 4 ports tied up serving a raid 10 for 
/home.  That leaves 2 ports empty on that controller.


I have a handful of 2T SSD's. If I can find another 4 pin empty pigtail 
on the psu, I'll plug 2 of these 2T's into that aux controller,


What doc should I follow to bring these 2 drives into one volume managed 
partition for amanda's use as a vtape device? I'd assume the volume 
management works by now, but it was a data losing disaster 15+ years ago 
when I last tried it.


I could, since amanda is quite versatile, set it up as two separate 
vtape drives.  So I'm open to a pro/con discussion.  Thanks all.


Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: logging no longer standard?

[Joe]

On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:09:41 +
Andy Smith  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 09:23:25AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > In any case, this is not a popular change.  
> 
> I don't think that's clear. I think that amongst a population of
> people who care deeply about logging it's generally unfavourable,
> and I myself don't particularly enjoy using journalctl so I'd kind
> of sort of put myself in that category except you know what? I just
> can't bring myself to get worked up over it.
> 
> I think that the vast majority of Debian users just do not care
> (or even know) and are content using journalctl.
> 
> For those of us who do care, installing rsyslog takes seconds.
> Disabling the systemd journal (if you want to)_ takes another few
> seconds. This email took longer.

But will the syslogs continue 'for the foreseeable future' or are there
already plans to drop them from Debian?
> 
> As such I'd file it as a reasonable change that I'm not 100% happy
> about and has resulted in a couple of extra lines in the Ansible
> playbook I use to provision machines. I don't think about it until
> the next time there is a thread of people getting bent out of shape
> over it.
> 
> Whether on balance it is net positive or net negative I don't know.
> 
> > I will also point out that this change is well-documented, both in
> > the official release notes[1] and in the wiki.[2]  Reading these
> > resources before an upgrade is highly recommended.  
> 
> The release notes in particular are essential reading since
> otherwise a person won't know about major components that have
> changed, been replaced etc.

Indeed, but they just tell us *what* stuff has changed, The job of
finding out what has to be actually done in order to continue doing
whatever we do, still has to be done, and that's time wasted. Obviously
things have to change, but backwards compatibility is very important to
minimise such wasted time, as far as possible.

I'm not a professional, I've just run a home/small business server
starting with sarge, and I consider that system administration time
could be better spent either working or playing.

In this fairly minor case, for example, I use 'tail -f ' at least
once a week, mainly on syslog itself, debug (where my firewall logs
to), daemon and exim4/mainlog. I'm sure there is a way to do this with
systemd, but it's something else to learn, a bit more running just to
stay still.

-- 
Joe

Re: Gradle version in bookworm

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 05:21:55PM +0100, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> Apologies if this is a dumb and/or frequently-answered question,
> but... does anyone know why the version of the "gradle" build tool in
> bookworm is version 4?
> 
> The version in bookworm, 4.4.1-18, was migrated to testing in January
> of this year -- an upgrade from version 4.4.1-13 -- at which time the
> latest upstream version was at least version 7. So it doesn't appear
> to be a "package not maintained any more" issue... The maintainers
> appear to be the Debian Java maintenance team, who I would assume
> would be unlikely to wander off... Bug reports against the package are
> beginning to show evidence that people are finding the age of the
> package a problem as unit tests and even some build dependencies
> become harder and harder to support.
> 
> Gradle is not some minority, hardly-used tool, so there is presumably
> a reason why the package hasn't been updated in Debian. Anyone know
> what it is?
> 
Becuase it's Very Hard Work(TM).

Updating Gradle in Debian was proposed as a project under Freexian's
Project Funding initiative and it was accepted and work was done on it
for several months:
https://salsa.debian.org/freexian-team/project-funding/-/issues/19

However, it seems like there are rather serious blocking issues that
have halted progress.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Gradle version in bookworm

[Mark Fletcher]

Apologies if this is a dumb and/or frequently-answered question,
but... does anyone know why the version of the "gradle" build tool in
bookworm is version 4?

The version in bookworm, 4.4.1-18, was migrated to testing in January
of this year -- an upgrade from version 4.4.1-13 -- at which time the
latest upstream version was at least version 7. So it doesn't appear
to be a "package not maintained any more" issue... The maintainers
appear to be the Debian Java maintenance team, who I would assume
would be unlikely to wander off... Bug reports against the package are
beginning to show evidence that people are finding the age of the
package a problem as unit tests and even some build dependencies
become harder and harder to support.

Gradle is not some minority, hardly-used tool, so there is presumably
a reason why the package hasn't been updated in Debian. Anyone know
what it is?

Thanks!

Mark

Re: logging no longer standard?

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 09:23:25AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> In any case, this is not a popular change.

I don't think that's clear. I think that amongst a population of
people who care deeply about logging it's generally unfavourable,
and I myself don't particularly enjoy using journalctl so I'd kind
of sort of put myself in that category except you know what? I just
can't bring myself to get worked up over it.

I think that the vast majority of Debian users just do not care
(or even know) and are content using journalctl.

For those of us who do care, installing rsyslog takes seconds.
Disabling the systemd journal (if you want to)_ takes another few
seconds. This email took longer.

As such I'd file it as a reasonable change that I'm not 100% happy
about and has resulted in a couple of extra lines in the Ansible
playbook I use to provision machines. I don't think about it until
the next time there is a thread of people getting bent out of shape
over it.

Whether on balance it is net positive or net negative I don't know.

> I will also point out that this change is well-documented, both in the
> official release notes[1] and in the wiki.[2]  Reading these resources
> before an upgrade is highly recommended.

The release notes in particular are essential reading since
otherwise a person won't know about major components that have
changed, been replaced etc.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

"The electric guitar - like making love - is much improved by a little
 feedback, completely ruined by too much." — The League Against Tedium

Re: logging no longer standard?

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 08:56:36AM -0400, Carl Fink wrote:
> It is highly probable that I'm being grumpy because Debian changed
> something that I was used to for decades, without my realizing it.

…because you didn't read the release notes that are absolutely
required reading to understand what important things have changed in
Debian at each release.

> Changing things will *always* be perceived as friction unless
> someone explains clearly why it makes sense, to me personally.

So a project needs to come and find you, a person who does not read
their release notes, to advocate to you why any and every change
will be made and seek your approval?

That doesn't sound like a very reasonable thing to ask of
volunteers. Have you considered paying some software developers to
make an OS to your exact specifications without you having to spend
any effort having input except when they consult you?

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: logging no longer standard?

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2023-08-05 09:23:25-0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> In any case, this [systemd journal] is not a popular change. I don't
> remember ever hearing a single person say "Wow, I'm so glad they did
> this!" I've seen many complaints. Most often, people just (re)install
> rsyslog and move on with their lives as before.

The popularity and opinions haven't been queried. We don't hear people's
silent satisfaction. You only hear complaints and surprise reactions:
"What? Things have changed?"

Ok, here is one: I think systemd is wonderful system and its journal is
really nice part of it. I use systemd units in such way that would have
been difficult before.

-- 
/// Teemu Likonen - .-.. https://www.iki.fi/tlikonen/
// OpenPGP: 6965F03973F0D4CA22B9410F0F2CAE0E07608462


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Description: PGP signature

Microphone not recognized on HP Laptop 17-cp2xxx

[Rainer Dorsch]

Hi,

I installed bookworm on a HP Laptop 17-cp2xxx, everything works perfectly, 
except the microphone does not show up in alsamixer, KDE plasma and Chromium.

pactl lists two cards, in card #1 I see a analog-input-mic:

rd@laptop:~$ pactl list cards
Card #0
Name: alsa_card.pci-_03_00.1
Driver: module-alsa-card.c
Owner Module: 6
Properties:
alsa.card = "0"
alsa.card_name = "HD-Audio Generic"
alsa.long_card_name = "HD-Audio Generic at 0xc04c8000 irq 82"
alsa.driver_name = "snd_hda_intel"
device.bus_path = "pci-:03:00.1"
sysfs.path = "/devices/pci:00/:00:08.1/:03:00.1/
sound/card0"
device.bus = "pci"
device.vendor.id = "1002"
device.vendor.name = "Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]"
device.product.id = "1640"
device.product.name = "Rembrandt Radeon High Definition Audio 
Controller"
device.string = "0"
device.description = "Rembrandt Radeon High Definition Audio 
Controller"
module-udev-detect.discovered = "1"
device.icon_name = "audio-card-pci"
Profiles:
output:hdmi-stereo: Digital Stereo (HDMI)-Ausgabe (sinks: 1, 
sources: 0, priority: 5900, available: no)
output:hdmi-surround: Digital Surround 5.1 (HDMI)-Ausgabe 
(sinks: 1, sources: 0, priority: 800, available: no)
output:hdmi-surround71: Digital Surround 7.1 (HDMI)-Ausgabe 
(sinks: 1, sources: 0, priority: 800, available: no)
off: Aus (sinks: 0, sources: 0, priority: 0, available: yes)
Active Profile: off
Ports:
hdmi-output-0: HDMI / DisplayPort (type: HDMI, priority: 5900, 
latency offset: 0 usec, not available)
Properties:
device.icon_name = "video-display"
Part of profile(s): output:hdmi-stereo, output:hdmi-
surround, output:hdmi-surround71

Card #1
Name: alsa_card.pci-_03_00.6
Driver: module-alsa-card.c
Owner Module: 7
Properties:
alsa.card = "1"
alsa.card_name = "HD-Audio Generic"
alsa.long_card_name = "HD-Audio Generic at 0xc04c irq 83"
alsa.driver_name = "snd_hda_intel"
device.bus_path = "pci-:03:00.6"
sysfs.path = "/devices/pci:00/:00:08.1/:03:00.6/
sound/card1"
device.bus = "pci"
device.vendor.id = "1022"
device.vendor.name = "Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]"
device.product.id = "15e3"
device.product.name = "Family 17h/19h HD Audio Controller"
device.string = "1"
device.description = "Family 17h/19h HD Audio Controller"
module-udev-detect.discovered = "1"
device.icon_name = "audio-card-pci"
Profiles:
input:analog-stereo: Analog Stereo-Eingabe (sinks: 0, sources: 
1, priority: 65, available: no)
output:analog-stereo: Analog Stereo-Ausgabe (sinks: 1, 
sources: 0, priority: 39268, available: yes)
output:analog-stereo+input:analog-stereo: Analog Stereo Duplex 
(sinks: 1, sources: 1, priority: 6565, available: yes)
off: Aus (sinks: 0, sources: 0, priority: 0, available: yes)
Active Profile: output:analog-stereo
Ports:
analog-input-mic: Microphone (type: Mic, priority: 8700, 
latency offset: 0 usec, not available)
Properties:
device.icon_name = "audio-input-microphone"
Part of profile(s): input:analog-stereo, output:analog-
stereo+input:analog-stereo
analog-output-speaker: Speakers (type: Speaker, priority: 
1, latency offset: 0 usec, availability unknown)
Properties:
device.icon_name = "audio-speakers"
Part of profile(s): output:analog-stereo, 
output:analog-stereo+input:analog-stereo
analog-output-headphones: Headphones (type: Headphones, 
priority: 9900, latency offset: 0 usec, not available)
Properties:
device.icon_name = "audio-headphones"
Part of profile(s): output:analog-stereo, 
output:analog-stereo+input:analog-stereo
rd@laptop:~$ 

Any advice or hint how to enable the mic is welcome.

Many thanks
Rainer



signature.asc
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Re: logging no longer standard?

[err404]

On 8/5/23 14:56, Carl Fink wrote:

On 8/5/23 02:54, Michel Verdier wrote:

On 2023-08-04, Carl Fink wrote:


Today, on my Bullseye system, X crashed and restarted. Naturally, I thought
I'd check my logs to see if I could find out why.

Well, no ... because syslog does not exist.

If you don't have syslog your logs will be on journald.
But X logs could be in /var/log/Xorg.0.log or
~/.xsession-error or ~/.local/share/xorg/Xorg.0.log

It is highly probable that I'm being grumpy because Debian changed something 
that
I was used to for decades, without my realizing it. I'm more interested in 
*using* my
computer than learning whole new paradigms about, say, logging. Changing things
will *always* be perceived as friction unless someone explains clearly why it 
makes
sense, to me personally.

-Carl Fink



I have syslog, and journald.
about having syslog, it is probably because I install rsyslog on all my 
computers (to send logs on server through vpn).
about having journald, I dont apreciate it, because it change many things that 
already working for years.
the ONLY avantage (in my opinion) to journald is to start loging very earlier 
at boot.

may be installing rsyslog is a solution for you (even if you don't need to send 
logs on a remote server)

Re: logging no longer standard?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 02:12:31PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> Does this clarify?
> 
>   https://wiki.debian.org/Rsyslog#Deprecation_in_Bookworm

Ah, I didn't know about that page.  It links to bug #1018788 which
says, among other things,

The main reason here is, that I want to avoid that log data is stored
twice on disk.

That's good to know, I suppose.

Re: logging no longer standard?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 08:56:36AM -0400, Carl Fink wrote:
> It is highly probable that I'm being grumpy because Debian changed something
> that
> I was used to for decades, without my realizing it. I'm more interested in
> *using* my
> computer than learning whole new paradigms about, say, logging. Changing
> things
> will *always* be perceived as friction unless someone explains clearly why
> it makes
> sense, to me personally.

You're unlikely to get a satisfactory explanation.  My best guess is they
(the Debian developers in question) think systemd's journal is really
neat-o and they want people to consider it the primary information source,
with human-readable text files being "legacy".  (To be fair, log rotation
of text files is clunky.  But it's a well-understood problem with well-
establish solutions.)

My second best guess is they wanted to reduce redundancy.  Having the
same information logged in multiple places might seem unappealing to
them.

In any case, this is not a popular change.  I don't remember ever
hearing a single person say "Wow, I'm so glad they did this!"  I've
seen many complaints.  Most often, people just (re)install rsyslog and
move on with their lives as before.

I will also point out that this change is well-documented, both in the
official release notes[1] and in the wiki.[2]  Reading these resources
before an upgrade is highly recommended.

[1] 
https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#upgrade-specific-issues
[2] https://wiki.debian.org/NewInBookworm

Re: logging no longer standard?

[Brian]

On Sat 05 Aug 2023 at 08:56:36 -0400, Carl Fink wrote:

> On 8/5/23 02:54, Michel Verdier wrote:
> > On 2023-08-04, Carl Fink wrote:
> > 
> > > Today, on my Bullseye system, X crashed and restarted. Naturally, I 
> > > thought
> > > I'd check my logs to see if I could find out why.
> > > 
> > > Well, no ... because syslog does not exist.
> > If you don't have syslog your logs will be on journald.
> > But X logs could be in /var/log/Xorg.0.log or
> > ~/.xsession-error or ~/.local/share/xorg/Xorg.0.log
> It is highly probable that I'm being grumpy because Debian changed something
> that
> I was used to for decades, without my realizing it. I'm more interested in
> *using* my
> computer than learning whole new paradigms about, say, logging. Changing
> things
> will *always* be perceived as friction unless someone explains clearly why
> it makes
> sense, to me personally.

Does this clarify?

  https://wiki.debian.org/Rsyslog#Deprecation_in_Bookworm

Re: logging no longer standard?

[Carl Fink]

On 8/5/23 02:54, Michel Verdier wrote:

On 2023-08-04, Carl Fink wrote:


Today, on my Bullseye system, X crashed and restarted. Naturally, I thought
I'd check my logs to see if I could find out why.

Well, no ... because syslog does not exist.

If you don't have syslog your logs will be on journald.
But X logs could be in /var/log/Xorg.0.log or
~/.xsession-error or ~/.local/share/xorg/Xorg.0.log
It is highly probable that I'm being grumpy because Debian changed 
something that
I was used to for decades, without my realizing it. I'm more interested 
in *using* my
computer than learning whole new paradigms about, say, logging. Changing 
things
will *always* be perceived as friction unless someone explains clearly 
why it makes

sense, to me personally.

-Carl Fink

Re: 127.0.1.1 line, was Re: chrome web browser worthless

[David Christensen]

On 8/4/23 19:26, David Wright wrote:

On Thu 03 Aug 2023 at 15:56:07 (-0700), David Christensen wrote:

On 8/2/23 19:05, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Aug 02, 2023 at 07:01:22PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:

Interesting.  Is there a Debian specification that explains the 127.0.1.1
entry?


https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch05.en.html#_the_hostname_resolution

I'm sure there are others, but this was the first one I found.


Thank you.


If you want more detail on motives, then perhaps start reading at:

   https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/07/msg00809.html



Thank you for the link.


David

Re: Lack of text console?

[Kamil Jońca]

David Wright  writes:

> On Fri 04 Aug 2023 at 15:36:35 (+0200), Kamil Jońca wrote:
>> Kamil Jońca  writes:
>> 
>> [...]
>> Ugh. This laptop has keyboard where Fn keys have dual function  (quite
>> common nowadays) and under F1 was kind of 'Sleep'. So when I press
>> Ctrl-Alt-F1 it goes to sleep, and with F2/F3 there were no reaction as
>> these keys have no other meaning.
>> When I press Ctrl-"fn switch"-Alt+F1 I got console.
>> Thanks for everyone for ensuring me that consoles are still in Debian
>> and sorry for the noise.
>
> On some laptops, the BIOS can switch between treating the Function
> keys as you reported here, or its opposite. The terminology varies:
> here, Lenovo call it HotKey Mode, and HP call it Action Keys Mode.

I know that.
​
The thing was, it wasn't my laptop, and (as I always set it to Fn, not
"special" on my machines) I did not think that someone might want to
have it cofigured  that way :)

KJ

-- 
http://wolnelektury.pl/wesprzyj/teraz/