from:"Richard"

I am trying to track what I suspect is a documentation bug. There are 
circular references. To logically break the chain I need to know the 
date package XYZ was installed.


I thought this would be an "apt" related question. But its manpage gave 
no indication that "when installed" is recorded.


Is there at least a way to track what required XYZ to be installed?

TIA

Re: NOTE TO SELF Re: Documenting a bug -- WHEN was package XYZ installed


On 10/29/24 5:56 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 05:53:38AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

Why/When did pdfminer get installed? My goal was to have "pdf2txt".


/var/log/apt/*

Cheers



Thank you. Problem solved. Was no documentation bug.
I forgot what I did late last night ;}

OOPS Re: NOTE TO SELF Re: Documenting a bug -- WHEN was package XYZ installed


SeaMonkey has a bug. I had chosen "Reply to sender only".
Obviously it went to the list. I didn't proof the "To:" ;{
I'll report the bug.

NOTE TO SELF Re: Documenting a bug -- WHEN was package XYZ installed


Why/When did pdfminer get installed? My goal was to have "pdf2txt".

On 10/29/24 5:47 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
I am trying to track what I suspect is a documentation bug. There are 
circular references. To logically break the chain I need to know the 
date package XYZ was installed.


I thought this would be an "apt" related question. But its manpage gave 
no indication that "when installed" is recorded.


Is there at least a way to track what required XYZ to be installed?

TIA

Questions prompted by move to Debian 12

2024-10-25 Thread Richard Owlett

I've used Debian since days of Squeeze. My desktop was Gnome2 until MATE 
was released (found Gnome3 uncomfortable).


I've been using Debian 9 with MATE and /home on its own partition.

I've installed all of Debian 12 (w MATE) to a single partition.

Is the content of Mate's Power Management help available on a web page?

It IS at least one bug - was [STRANGENESS (typographical error???) at http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/README]

2024-10-19 Thread Richard Owlett

Later in this thread Tomas references "Apache HTTP Server 
Documentation"[1] which explicitly states "Directories require a 
trailing slash...".


Therefore http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/README should *NOT* read
"Older releases of Debian are at http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive";
*BUT* should read
"Older releases of Debian are at 
http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive/ ."


[1] https://httpd.apache.org/docs/trunk/mod/mod_dir.html


On 10/17/2024 07:35 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
While trying to follow a discussion involving a deeply nested debian.org 
sub-directory, I attempted to find the purpose of that sub-directory by 
following a chain of links titled "Parent Directory".


That led to http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ whose first link is to 
"http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/README"; [NOTE BENE quotation marks].


That file (in part) reads:



Unstable, or sid.  Access this release through dists/unstable.  The
current development snapshot is named sid.  Untested candidate
packages for future releases.

Older releases of Debian are at http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive

--- Other directories:


I pointed my browser to "http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive"; and got:


Not Found

The requested URL was not found on this server.
Apache Server at archive.debian.org Port 80


Suspecting a bad URL I went back to "http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/";
whose HTML reads in part:


Old Releases

Older releases of Debian are at
href="http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive/";>http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive 



https://www.debian.org/distrib/archive";>More information




and chose the link titled "README.html". It displayed *properly*.

I went back to the link triggering the "404 error" and added a trailing 
"/" to the URL. It *then* displayed properly.


Is this a typo or a server problem?
[ understand "STRANGENESS" in my Subject: line? ;]

Re: STRANGENESS (typographical error???) at http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/README

2024-10-17 Thread Richard Owlett


On 10/17/2024 08:39 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:

On Oct 17, 2024, Richard Owlett wrote:

While trying to follow a discussion involving a deeply nested debian.org
sub-directory, I attempted to find the purpose of that sub-directory by
following a chain of links titled "Parent Directory".

That led to http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ whose first link is to
"http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/README"; [NOTE BENE quotation marks].

[...]


Though I understand why Dan clipped [...], it was there for a reason.
I date back to CPUs with 12AX7s and spent three decades in component 
level (engineering support)/(QA/QC)/(end user support).




I pointed my browser to "http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive"; and
got:

I went back to the link triggering the "404 error" and added a trailing "/"
to the URL. It *then* displayed properly.

Is this a typo or a server problem?
[ understand "STRANGENESS" in my Subject: line? ;]


Both, potentially.


'Twas afraid of that ;{



The server SHOULD give you the directory with or without the trailing
slash, but it seems it's configured such that if you don't have the
trailing slash on the directory, it treats it as a file (which isn't
there).

I wonder if apache is doing some kind of directory-level virtualization,
where it only "exists" if you have the trailing slash on the end (I
don't know enough of the internals of apache2 to say one way or the
other; but I have run into this with certain configurations of various
FTP / SFTP implementations in "commercial" products for business
communication).



The *clipped* portion of my post included at least one URL with no 
trailing "/" which worked properly.

STRANGENESS (typographical error???) at http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/README

2024-10-17 Thread Richard Owlett

While trying to follow a discussion involving a deeply nested debian.org 
sub-directory, I attempted to find the purpose of that sub-directory by 
following a chain of links titled "Parent Directory".


That led to http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ whose first link is to 
"http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/README"; [NOTE BENE quotation marks].


That file (in part) reads:



Unstable, or sid.  Access this release through dists/unstable.  The
current development snapshot is named sid.  Untested candidate
packages for future releases.

Older releases of Debian are at http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive

--- Other directories:


I pointed my browser to "http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive"; and got:


Not Found

The requested URL was not found on this server.
Apache Server at archive.debian.org Port 80


Suspecting a bad URL I went back to "http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/";
whose HTML reads in part:


Old Releases

Older releases of Debian are at
http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive/";>http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive

https://www.debian.org/distrib/archive";>More information




and chose the link titled "README.html". It displayed *properly*.

I went back to the link triggering the "404 error" and added a trailing 
"/" to the URL. It *then* displayed properly.


Is this a typo or a server problem?
[ understand "STRANGENESS" in my Subject: line? ;]

[update] Re: Updating from Debian 9.13 to 12.7

2024-10-15 Thread Richard Owlett


On 10/15/2024 05:25 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 10/14/2024 06:43 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:

On Oct 13, 2024, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 10/13/2024 04:57 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 08:27:55AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
It has been my habit since days of Squeeze to install the new 
Debian to a

fresh fresh partition and then use Grub to chose which version for a
particular session.

I have two what might loosely be described as configuration questions.

1. I have 2 Panels of icons for launching tools/applications at the
 top of my display. Are they inventoried anywhere? I want a "check
 sheet" to verify I effectively have the same flexibility on my 
new

 system.



Which desktop on Debian 9?


MATE



Just a preferred arrangement? Write down what the arrangement is and
reimplement it for yourself once you've installed 12?


Essentially what I'm doing ;}
It's inefficient.
Debian "knows" and can reproduce icons on an apparently arbitrary
number if panels. The information is stored somewhere.
Where?


By "Panel", you mean the actual panel/taskbar, right?


Correct.



That's *PROBABLY* buried somewhere in gtk settings somewhere
(necessitating, oh what is it ... gconf-editor ... to dump out?)

Granted, Debian 9-12 might represent sufficient time such that changes
to GTK mean you cannot simply dump from one and load to the other.


Doing a search for "GConf configuration database" [w/o quotes] gives 
hits which look relevant. Which icons are on my panels are a secondary 
problem.





[...]

The system has a "default" icon size and if you only manually place
files in the Desktop folder what is visually displayed is a regular
grid on non-overlapping icons.

At a minimum I want is when manual moving icons they snap to a 
location on

THAT grid spacing.
What actually happens is they are placed at the *precise* pixel
location you "chose" :{


As I recall (read: poorly ;) ); this is an option in the desktop's
context menu to "snap to grid".



I re-examined the entries in the sub-menus of System heading.
Found nothing.

However, reading the hits of my web search may give ideas of keywords 
for a search on this more important issue.


Thanks



Wandering a chain of links starting at https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/ 
leads me to _suspect_ the configuration information I seek is in 
/home/richard/.config/dconf/user .


That file changes whenever an icon is moved on a panel *OR* an icon is 
moved on the Desktop.

Re: Updating from Debian 9.13 to 12.7

2024-10-15 Thread Richard Owlett


On 10/14/2024 06:43 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:

On Oct 13, 2024, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 10/13/2024 04:57 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 08:27:55AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

It has been my habit since days of Squeeze to install the new Debian to a
fresh fresh partition and then use Grub to chose which version for a
particular session.

I have two what might loosely be described as configuration questions.

1. I have 2 Panels of icons for launching tools/applications at the
 top of my display. Are they inventoried anywhere? I want a "check
 sheet" to verify I effectively have the same flexibility on my new
 system.



Which desktop on Debian 9?


MATE



Just a preferred arrangement? Write down what the arrangement is and
reimplement it for yourself once you've installed 12?


Essentially what I'm doing ;}
It's inefficient.
Debian "knows" and can reproduce icons on an apparently arbitrary
number if panels. The information is stored somewhere.
Where?


By "Panel", you mean the actual panel/taskbar, right?


Correct.



That's *PROBABLY* buried somewhere in gtk settings somewhere
(necessitating, oh what is it ... gconf-editor ... to dump out?)

Granted, Debian 9-12 might represent sufficient time such that changes
to GTK mean you cannot simply dump from one and load to the other.


Doing a search for "GConf configuration database" [w/o quotes] gives 
hits which look relevant. Which icons are on my panels are a secondary 
problem.





[...]

The system has a "default" icon size and if you only manually place
files in the Desktop folder what is visually displayed is a regular
grid on non-overlapping icons.

At a minimum I want is when manual moving icons they snap to a location on
THAT grid spacing.
What actually happens is they are placed at the *precise* pixel
location you "chose" :{


As I recall (read: poorly ;) ); this is an option in the desktop's
context menu to "snap to grid".



I re-examined the entries in the sub-menus of System heading.
Found nothing.

However, reading the hits of my web search may give ideas of keywords 
for a search on this more important issue.


Thanks

Re: Updating from Debian 9.13 to 12.7

2024-10-14 Thread Richard Owlett


On 10/13/2024 12:29 PM, Joe wrote:

On Sun, 13 Oct 2024 06:11:17 -0500
Richard Owlett  wrote:



I want to reproduce the visual environment I've developed over the
years.



In other words, you face the same choice that we all do when it's time
to leave an old faithful installation behind: upgrade or clean install.

  [SNIP ~2kb OT statement that *applications* have changed]

Joe did not carefully read my clarification requested by Andrew.

I want Debian 12 with MATE Desktop at cold boot to visually display the 
same arrangement of icons as Debian 9 with MATE Desktop at cold boot.


Of course applications have changed over the years.
That is essentially the *ONLY* reason I no longer run Debian 6 ;}

Re: Updating from Debian 9.13 to 12.7

2024-10-13 Thread Richard Owlett


On 10/13/2024 04:57 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 08:27:55AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

It has been my habit since days of Squeeze to install the new Debian to a
fresh fresh partition and then use Grub to chose which version for a
particular session.

I have two what might loosely be described as configuration questions.

1. I have 2 Panels of icons for launching tools/applications at the
top of my display. Are they inventoried anywhere? I want a "check
sheet" to verify I effectively have the same flexibility on my new
system.



Which desktop on Debian 9?


MATE



Just a preferred arrangement? Write down what the arrangement is and
reimplement it for yourself once you've installed 12?


Essentially what I'm doing ;}
It's inefficient.
Debian "knows" and can reproduce icons on an apparently arbitrary number 
if panels. The information is stored somewhere.

Where?



Which desktop environment do you plan to install on Debian 12?


I have installed MATE on Debian n12.




2. Is there some way to have the contents of
/home/richard/.config/Desktop be displayed in the current pattern?
Secondarily, is it possible to have new additions snap to a suitably
coarse grid?



I don't know: I have no idea what is in this file: that's local configuration >
How coarse is coarse? Does this have any relation to the ideal method of
measuring the length of a piece of string and quantifying the resultant value?


The system has a "default" icon size and if you only manually place 
files in the Desktop folder what is visually displayed is a regular grid 
on non-overlapping icons.


At a minimum I want is when manual moving icons they snap to a location 
on THAT grid spacing.
What actually happens is they are placed at the *precise* pixel location 
you "chose" :{




MORE INFORMATION NEEDED PLEASE - I can't look over your shoulder and
see exactly what you see. If you have preferred customisations, you may
need to reproduce them yourself.

I'm unsure of your methodology here: given the amount of change since 9.13
and the amount of updates, for myself I'd just install a clean version of
Debian 12 and hae done with it.


I have installed a fully functional Debian 12.
I want to reproduce the visual environment I've developed over the years.



All best, as ever,

Andy
(amaca...@debian.org)
I'd just install a nice fresh version of Debian 12

TIA

Updating from Debian 9.13 to 12.7

2024-10-12 Thread Richard Owlett

It has been my habit since days of Squeeze to install the new Debian to 
a fresh fresh partition and then use Grub to chose which version for a 
particular session.


I have two what might loosely be described as configuration questions.

1. I have 2 Panels of icons for launching tools/applications at the
   top of my display. Are they inventoried anywhere? I want a "check
   sheet" to verify I effectively have the same flexibility on my new
   system.

2. Is there some way to have the contents of
   /home/richard/.config/Desktop be displayed in the current pattern?
   Secondarily, is it possible to have new additions snap to a suitably
   coarse grid?

TIA

Re: Debian manuals.

2024-10-06 Thread Richard Owlett


On 10/06/2024 07:21 PM, knomadness wrote:

Is there a paper book type of manual that I can get of Debian?

Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer



Might
https://www.debian.org/doc/books
or
https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=%22debian%22%20%22books%22
be helpful?

Re: Which subdirectory for a usedr-specific executable?

2024-10-05 Thread Richard Owlett


On 10/04/2024 06:44 PM, David Christensen wrote:

On 10/4/24 04:47, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 10/03/2024 06:34 PM, David Christensen wrote:

On 10/3/24 05:51, Richard Owlett wrote:
Is there standard/recommended location for an executable to be used 
by only a one user?

In my case it should be under /home/richard/ .
But where?

It would help if you told us about the executable and the context for 
its use -- e.g. self-contain binary for shell usage, one of several 
programs included in a large graphical user interface application 
suite that requires a specific desktop environment, etc.


 If life were only that simple.
This started out with planning to update my PRIMARY system from
    32 bit Debian  9 with SeaMonkey 2.49.4
to
    64 bit Debian 12 with SeaMonkey 2.53.19

The 32 bit system resembles Topsy. It "just grew".
My goal for the 64 bit system is that it more closely conform to the 
expectations of Debian.


For some indeterminate time BOTH versions of SeaMonkey *MUST* run on 
both the 32 and 64 bit systems.


 From a SeaMonkey list I've gotten the needed information to have two 
incompatible versions coexist. It's a known problem.


So my question in a way becomes "Where do I _not put_ SeaMonkey 
executable to avoid future clashes?"


Michael Kjörling referred me to specific sections of
https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/index.html
and
https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/file-hierarchy.html 
.

I needed the introductory material in both.
I will be carefully re-reading both.
I suspect it will be valuable to browse www.freedesktop.org generally.
[ I'll likely learn what questions I should be asking. ]



SeaMonkey does not appear to be available as a Debian package:

https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=seamonkey&searchon=names&suite=all§ion=all 



As far as I know it never has been.
I have been using it or its predecessors since the days of Netscape 
Navigator.





STFW I see downloadable packages for SeaMonkey:

https://www.seamonkey-project.org/releases/


Rather than trying to do an in-place upgrade of your primary system, I 
suggest implementing regular backups on your current primary system, 
building a new primary system with 64 bit Debian 12 with SeaMonkey 
2.53.19, restoring your data onto the new primary system, and 
implementing regular backups of your new primary system.




*ROFL* That is the correct standard advice.
[ also a demo of why I ask SeaMonkey questions on SeaMonkey fora ]
I also take your suggestion one level deeper by doing it all on a 
physically separate scratch test hardware when some would say doing it 
in VM environment is enough isolation.

On a previous SeaMonkey update I demonstrated why one has backups ;/

Re: Which subdirectory for a usedr-specific executable?

2024-10-04 Thread Richard Owlett


On 10/03/2024 06:34 PM, David Christensen wrote:

On 10/3/24 05:51, Richard Owlett wrote:
Is there standard/recommended location for an executable to be used by 
only a one user?

In my case it should be under /home/richard/ .
But where?

TIA




It would help if you told us about the executable and the context for 
its use -- e.g. self-contain binary for shell usage, one of several 
programs included in a large graphical user interface application suite 
that requires a specific desktop environment, etc.



David




 If life were only that simple.
This started out with planning to update my PRIMARY system from
   32 bit Debian  9 with SeaMonkey 2.49.4
to
   64 bit Debian 12 with SeaMonkey 2.53.19

The 32 bit system resembles Topsy. It "just grew".
My goal for the 64 bit system is that it more closely conform to the 
expectations of Debian.


For some indeterminate time BOTH versions of SeaMonkey *MUST* run on 
both the 32 and 64 bit systems.


From a SeaMonkey list I've gotten the needed information to have two 
incompatible versions coexist. It's a known problem.


So my question in a way becomes "Where do I _not put_ SeaMonkey 
executable to avoid future clashes?"


Michael Kjörling referred me to specific sections of
https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/index.html
and
https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/file-hierarchy.html 
.

I needed the introductory material in both.
I will be carefully re-reading both.
I suspect it will be valuable to browse www.freedesktop.org generally.
[ I'll likely learn what questions I should be asking. ]

Re: Which subdirectory for a usedr-specific executable?


On 10/03/2024 08:43 AM, David Wright wrote:

On Thu 03 Oct 2024 at 08:31:08 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:

On 10/03/2024 08:03 AM, Jerome BENOIT wrote:

On 03/10/2024 14:51, Richard Owlett wrote:

Is there standard/recommended location for an executable to be
used by only a one user?
In my case it should be under /home/richard/ .
But where?


the /etc/skel/.profile add to PATH ~/bin and ~/.local/bin if they exist.


That answers a slightly different question.
For my specific case I wish to avoid the use of PATH.
[adding details will only cause confusion]


Then obviously you should put it anywhere /except/ in one of those two
directories, so that it /won't/ be included in your PATH.


Which is why I said thank you to Michael for the standards.
They are going to prevent problems unrelated to this thread.



Cheers,
David.

Re: Which subdirectory for a usedr-specific executable?


On 10/03/2024 08:45 AM, Michael Kjörling wrote:

On 3 Oct 2024 15:40 +0200, from to...@tuxteam.de:

Is there standard/recommended location for [...]


The XDG Base Directory Specification recommends [...]


Glad mine is just a computer, not a desktop ;-)

Seriously: that's why I walked away from this desktop craze years
ago. Sure, I still have to have a rough idea of how it works, to
be able to help other people fix their computers, but... my $HOME
is mine.


You are free to arrange your files in whatever manner you prefer.
However, OP specifically asked for a "standard/recommended location".
Unlike the other answers I've seen in the thread so far (which are
personal anecdata), my answer provides one such, with references.



Actual specifications are worth the bother >99% of the time.
My actual background is primarily component level analog and was doing 
"end user support" in mid-60's.

Re: Which subdirectory for a usedr-specific executable?


On 10/03/2024 08:31 AM, Michael Kjörling wrote:

On 3 Oct 2024 07:51 -0500, from rowl...@access.net (Richard Owlett):

Is there standard/recommended location for an executable to be used by only
a one user?
In my case it should be under /home/richard/ .
But where?


The XDG Base Directory Specification recommends ~/.local/bin for
"user-specific executable files".

https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/index.html#variables

systemd also recommends that same directory for "executables that
shall appear in the user's $PATH search path".

https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/file-hierarchy.html#Home%20Directory

https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/file-hierarchy.html#~/.local/bin/

I would say that meets your requirements as stated.



All portions of those two documents are going be relevant to my project 
[not just the referenced sections].

Thank you.

Re: Which subdirectory for a usedr-specific executable?


On 10/03/2024 08:03 AM, Jerome BENOIT wrote:

Hello Richard,

the /etc/skel/.profile add to PATH ~/bin and ~/.local/bin if they exist.

On 03/10/2024 14:51, Richard Owlett wrote:
Is there standard/recommended location for an executable to be used by 
only a one user?

In my case it should be under /home/richard/ .
But where?


hth,
Jerome




TIA






That answers a slightly different question.
For my specific case I wish to avoid the use of PATH.
[adding details will only cause confusion]

Re: Which subdirectory for a usedr-specific executable?


On 10/03/2024 08:11 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

Is there standard/recommended location for an executable to be used by only
a one user?
In my case it should be under /home/richard/ .
But where?


I'd put it in ~/bin


 Stefan




As /home/richard/bin does not exist, I assume the answer is to create 
that sub-directory?


TIA

Which subdirectory for a usedr-specific executable?

Is there standard/recommended location for an executable to be used by 
only a one user?

In my case it should be under /home/richard/ .
But where?

TIA

Re: Problems with fresh 64 bit Debian 12.7

2024-09-28 Thread Richard Owlett

On 09/28/2024 12:13 PM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Sat, Sep 28, 2024 at 11:35:34AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

Underlying Problem: Debian is *TOO* good and reliable ;}!
32 bit Debian 9.13 has given yeoman service.
But I want some features that weren't available in the Jurassic.
Having a low data cap, I went to local library and downloaded
[ seamonkey-2.53.19.en-US.linux-x86_64.tar.bz2 ].

This morning's install was straight forward and relatively uneventful.
For it to be "functional" I need some tools I've had ~forever:
   1. caja-admin to have "open as administrator".
   2. arandr to have a screen big enough and bright enough to see.

In Synaptic I attempted to connect to an online repository.
It told me:
 > The repository 'cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 12.7.0 _Bookworm_ - Official
 > amd64 DVD Binary-1 with firmware 20240831-10:40] bookworm Release'
does
 > not have a Release file.
I saw no way to tell it to go online.

Synaptic's small dim "Help" didn't ;{
I haven't installed Debian programs in eons - What/where should I be
reading?

TIA

Richard,

Read /etc/apt/sources.list

Potentially, if you install from a DVD and do not have immediate network
access, the /etc/apt/sources.list contains a DVD entry as the first line
and (possibly) commented out lines below for the main Debian repositories.

That's what the message suggests to me: if the DVD is the first line and
is not commented out, comment it out / delete it then apt update and try
again.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater
(amaca...@debian.org)

Think you got it. I has only a single line:

deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 12.7.0 _Bookworm_ - Official amd64 DVD Binary-1 
with firmware 20240831-10:40]/ bookworm contrib main non-free-firmware

Won't be able to try the "apt update" until tonight or tomorrow.
If it doesn't work I'll compare the Debian 9 sources.list to see if I 
can interpolate adequately.

Thanks.

Problems with fresh 64 bit Debian 12.7

2024-09-28 Thread Richard Owlett


Underlying Problem: Debian is *TOO* good and reliable ;}!
32 bit Debian 9.13 has given yeoman service.
But I want some features that weren't available in the Jurassic.
Having a low data cap, I went to local library and downloaded
[ seamonkey-2.53.19.en-US.linux-x86_64.tar.bz2 ].

This morning's install was straight forward and relatively uneventful.
For it to be "functional" I need some tools I've had ~forever:
  1. caja-admin to have "open as administrator".
  2. arandr to have a screen big enough and bright enough to see.

In Synaptic I attempted to connect to an online repository.
It told me:
> The repository 'cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 12.7.0 _Bookworm_ - 
Official
> amd64 DVD Binary-1 with firmware 20240831-10:40] bookworm 
Release' does

> not have a Release file.
I saw no way to tell it to go online.

Synaptic's small dim "Help" didn't ;{
I haven't installed Debian programs in eons - What/where should I be 
reading?


TIA

Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience

2024-09-27 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/26/2024 09:42 PM, David Wright wrote:

On Mon 23 Sep 2024 at 06:31:21 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:

A primary deficiency of Debian documentation is lack of indexes
[despite having file titles of form index.html ].
[q.v. 
https://differencesfinder.com/index-vs-table-of-contents-key-differences-explained/
]


AIUI index.html is just a conventional name for the landing page
when you demand a domainname or directory without any filename.


True. Isn't it just very annoying when the *real world* just doesn't 
conform to what *should be* ;/




As for indexes, well, that takes work, so who's going to do it?
People make a living as freelance indexers.


Maybe I can approximate a "proper index" with something that might be 
described as a "specialized concordance"


I did DuckDuckGo searches for the terms within the square brackets:
[ "document" "indexing" "tool" ]
[ "document" "indexing" "tool" "foss" ]
[ "document" "vocabulary" "word frequency" ]
[ "sklearn" ]
Reading just what DuckDuckGo displayed suggested a path.
Follow some links and one chain of links was encouraging.
Synaptic reports that sklearn related modules are available.
I need to successfully install a more current Debian to follow-up.
More later if fruitful.



OTOH, logically, TOCs write themselves as part of the process of
designing a document, and physically, they should be easy to generate
from chapter/section headings, while it is processed for publication.


My current goal to multi-boot my primary machine without clobbering
existing valuable data (even if that data has been backed-up).

*A* current question is how to install a "dual-boot" or "multi-boot"
system. Debian users make a strong distinction between the two.


I don't see any defining difference between the two terms (beyond
obviously not using the former where there are more than two
installations).


I've long thought so. You and other recent posts agree.



Cheers,
David.

Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience

2024-09-24 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/24/2024 03:42 AM, Michel Verdier wrote:

On 2024-09-23, Richard Owlett wrote:


*A* current question is how to install a "dual-boot" or "multi-boot"
  system. Debian users make a strong distinction between the two.


I have never heard of such a distinction. Could you provide your sources ?



No. It's come up in threads over the years. I've never seen the logic of 
distinguishing between "dual-booting" Windows/Linux and "multi-booting" 
Linux/Linux". I've had a Windows/32 bit Linux/64 bit Linux setup.


My phrasing was an attempt to attract replies from all who use either 
the term "dual-boot" or "multi-boot".

Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience

2024-09-23 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/22/2024 08:04 PM, David Wright wrote:

On Sat 21 Sep 2024 at 07:03:58 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:*SNIP*

Tell me that with a straight face when you pass 80 ;)!
[I haven't seen that set of screens in at least 5 years.]


I recalled a "SUCESSFUL INSTALL" [sic] status report from May 2022,
and also thought you had restarted installing about 3 months ago.
Perhaps I was assuming too much.


Paraphrasing someone "To laugh or to cry, that is the question". ;}

About 15 years ago I was asked to tutor a young man who should have been 
in high school. I knew that he was clinically ADHD. After only a few 
weeks I thought I was "looking in a mirror". Referral to a psychologist 
resulted in receiving a tentative diagnosis of being ADHD myself (didn't 
meet all criteria due to age).


I do hyper-focus and can be easily distracted.

A primary deficiency of Debian documentation is lack of indexes [despite 
having file titles of form index.html ].
[q.v. 
https://differencesfinder.com/index-vs-table-of-contents-key-differences-explained/ 
]


As to the referenced "SUCCESSFUL INSTALL":
1. that specific install used only installer defaults.
2. that machine, with no valuable data, was for experiments.

My current goal to multi-boot my primary machine without clobbering 
existing valuable data (even if that data has been backed-up).


*A* current question is how to install a "dual-boot" or "multi-boot" 
system. Debian users make a strong distinction between the two.


Though trying to be exhaustive, "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" 
suffers from lack of an index.


"The beginner’s handbook", though having some organizational advantages 
and a large number of installer screen images, is aimed at very raw 
newbies. It has minimal coverage of "dual-boot".


I don't have the programming expertise to contribute that way. I'll 
continue creating a TOC for the type of document I'd like to see.


More later.

Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE use

2024-09-22 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/19/2024 09:16 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
Is the AMD64 version of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" available 
as a single file.


I need it available when the network is not.


IF you have *already* installed Debian, the individual HTML files and 
compressed copies of the PDF and plain text versions are in

/usr/share/doc/installation-guide-amd64/en/ .

I have not found where this would be available to a potential first time 
user of Debian.




It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when installing 
from DVD1 were available.


Some(all?) of the images are available in the .../img sub-directory 
created when [ 
https://download.tuxfamily.org/debianbegin/the_beginners_handbook.html.tar.gz 
] is downloaded and decompressed.

Re: Copying installer ISO to USB Flash

2024-09-21 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/20/2024 12:56 PM, Bret Busby wrote:

On 20/9/24 22:52, Richard Owlett wrote:
Having machines with different constraints I have downloaded DVD1 and 
Netinst ISO's. I have flash drives with obsolete ISO's. For reference 
I have [ https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#write-usb ] available.


Questions:
1. Do the flash drives require any prep?
    [ Gparted gives warning messages on both. ]
2. I've casually followed recent discussion on appropriate dd options.
    What was the conclusion?
    What was the subject line {i have local copies}?
3. Not having done a "from scratch" install recently, is there something
    I haven't thought to ask?

TIA



Have you considered setting up and maintaining a Ventoy Drive?

I found it quite simple to set up and use, and, it can contain various 
bootable OS's.


See
https://www.theregister.com/2021/12/10/friday_foss_fest/
and
https://www.ventoy.net/en/index.html

I have a Ventoy drive with various BSD and Linux distributions ISO's, 
and, an MS Windows 10 ISO.




I hadn't heard of it. I doubt I'll use it for installations.
However, I have some diagnostics and utilities available as ISOs that it 
might be convenient to have on a single device.

Re: Copying installer ISO to USB Flash

2024-09-21 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/20/2024 10:56 AM, David Wright wrote:

On Fri 20 Sep 2024 at 09:52:32 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:

Having machines with different constraints I have downloaded DVD1 and
Netinst ISO's. I have flash drives with obsolete ISO's. For reference
I have [ https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#write-usb ] available.

Questions:
1. Do the flash drives require any prep?
[ Gparted gives warning messages on both. ]


(It wouldn't do to say what about, of course.)

No. If you're about to copy onto them, then only a decision that
want to trash their current contents.


I suspected that was the only relevant thing. I suspect that Gparted was 
saying that it did not speak "iso-hybrid". I was putting new Debian on 
drives having old Debian.




Your preparation might include removing other plugins to reduce the
ambiguity of /dev/sdX.


2. I've casually followed recent discussion on appropriate dd options.
What was the conclusion?
What was the subject line {i have local copies}?


It contained "amd64-netinst.iso. That should add to your reading
this weekend :)
(How do you search your local copies?)


Among fields of locally stored emails searchable by SeaMonkey are 
"Subject" and "Body".




Conclusion: old school — dd, new school — cp.


3. Not having done a "from scratch" install recently, is there something
I haven't thought to ask?


Doubtless you'll think of something after the weekend.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE use

2024-09-21 Thread Richard Owlett

On 09/20/2024 10:57 AM, David Wright wrote:

On Fri 20 Sep 2024 at 07:53:28 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:

On 09/19/2024 10:04 AM, David Wright wrote:

On Thu 19 Sep 2024 at 09:16:25 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:

Is the AMD64 version of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide"
available as a single file.

I need it available when the network is not.

It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when
installing from DVD1 were available.

Have you tried googling:

debian stable installation guide pdf amd64

which should lead you to:

https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/install.en.pdf

No ;}
For two primary reasons:
1. due to vision/perception problems I avoid PDF in favor of HTML.
SeaMonkey simplifies consistent font size across documents.
2. My work style uses tabs to group (and save across restarts)
related references conveniently.

Secondarily, for those preferring PDF, in my use of SeaMonkey since
days of Squeeze I never noticed mention of its documentation being
available as PDF.

The PDF is ~650kB, but for ~17MB you can get all three formats
(PDF/text/HTML) as one file (in the sense it seems you mean) in
the Debian package installation-guide-amd64.

As you didn't give a URL, I went to
https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=%22Debian%22%20%22package%22%20%22installation-guide-amd64%22

That did not link to "all three formats (PDF/text/HTML) as one file"
available to one who does not have Debian already installed.

1st hit of "Details of package installation-guide-amd64 in bullseye"
prompted travel in right direction.

I've been using Debian since Squeeze. I have never been pointed to
[ /usr/share/doc ] nor [ /usr/share/doc-base ]. The latter contains the
"Installation Guide" as uncompressed HTML filed. PDF&text versions are
there in compressed format.

Using tabs isn't affected by whether the HTML code itself is in
a "single" file or a tree.

My mention of tabs was to point out why PDF was not useful.

Because I'm doing a "from scratch" install for the first time in
several years, I said:

It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when installing
from DVD1 were available.

Sorry, I would have thought you could recite them from memory by now :)

Tell me that with a straight face when you pass 80 ;)!
[I haven't seen that set of screens in at least 5 years.]

I recall most of what has to be accomplished but am hazy on some
details. So I went looking at https://www.debian.org/ from a "newbie"
point of view. ~Nada:{
Drilling down leads to https://www.debian.org/do_c/ which first points

FTR remove the "_".

our possibly non-geek newbie to "Installation Guide" and "Debian
GNU/Linux FAQ" which, though brimming with facts, are inconveniently
organized.

Oh dear, I thought that was how the Installation Guide had been
organised since the days of yore.

YES! It has bugged me forever ;{

*HOWEVER* there is something _NEW_ on the page!
Who, me, excited ;}
There is now something called _The Debian Bookworm beginner’s
handbook_ [
https://debian-beginners-handbook.tuxfamily.org/index-en.html ].
For reasons stated above I'll be using the HTML more than the PDF.

This resource should be linked to on https://www.debian.org/ or at
most down only one level.

I don't think it makes sense to promote this above the two you've
already mentioned.

It should at least be in the same "Quick Start" paragraph.

I addresses some of my questions, though it only mentions others.
I'll be doing a lot of reading this weekend.

If you like it. I prefer the detail of the other two, and it now
sounds as if you might.

They suffer from too much detail.

One question. There are two HTML versions. What's difference between
the_beginners_handbook.html and the_beginners_handbook_night.html ?

It should be as clear as night and day from the very start of each,
but:

$ diff -U0 the*/the* > diff (attached)

*ROFL*
Due to my vision problems, one of the first things done to SeaMonkey was
choosing "Use my chosen colors, ignoring the colors and background image
specified" option of Preferences->Appearance->Colors :}!

Cheers,
David.

Copying installer ISO to USB Flash

2024-09-20 Thread Richard Owlett

Having machines with different constraints I have downloaded DVD1 and 
Netinst ISO's. I have flash drives with obsolete ISO's. For reference I 
have [ https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#write-usb ] available.


Questions:
1. Do the flash drives require any prep?
   [ Gparted gives warning messages on both. ]
2. I've casually followed recent discussion on appropriate dd options.
   What was the conclusion?
   What was the subject line {i have local copies}?
3. Not having done a "from scratch" install recently, is there something
   I haven't thought to ask?

TIA

Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE use

2024-09-20 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/19/2024 10:04 AM, David Wright wrote:

On Thu 19 Sep 2024 at 09:16:25 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:

Is the AMD64 version of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide"
available as a single file.

I need it available when the network is not.

It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when
installing from DVD1 were available.


Have you tried googling:

   debian stable installation guide pdf amd64

which should lead you to:

   https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/install.en.pdf

Cheers,
David.



No ;}
For two primary  reasons:
1. due to vision/perception problems I avoid PDF in favor of HTML.
   SeaMonkey simplifies consistent font size across documents.
2. My work style uses tabs to group (and save across restarts)
   related references conveniently.

Secondarily, for those preferring PDF, in my use of SeaMonkey since days 
of Squeeze I never noticed mention of its documentation being available 
as PDF.


Because I'm doing a "from scratch" install for the first time in several 
years, I said:

It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when installing
from DVD1 were available. 


I recall most of what has to be accomplished but am hazy on some 
details. So I went looking at https://www.debian.org/ from a "newbie" 
point of view. ~Nada:{
Drilling down leads to https://www.debian.org/do_c/ which first points 
our possibly non-geek newbie to "Installation Guide" and "Debian 
GNU/Linux FAQ" which, though brimming with facts, are inconveniently 
organized.


*HOWEVER* there is something _NEW_ on the page!
Who, me, excited ;}
There is now something called _The Debian Bookworm beginner’s handbook_ 
[ https://debian-beginners-handbook.tuxfamily.org/index-en.html ].

For reasons stated above I'll be using the HTML more than the PDF.

This resource should be linked to on https://www.debian.org/ or at most 
down only one level.


I addresses some of my questions, though it only mentions others.
I'll be doing a lot of reading this weekend.

One question. There are two HTML versions. What's difference between
the_beginners_handbook.html and the_beginners_handbook_night.html ?

Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE use

2024-09-19 Thread Richard Owlett

Is the AMD64 version of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" available 
as a single file.


I need it available when the network is not.

It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when installing 
from DVD1 were available.


TIA

Re: Circumventing keyboard problem on Lenovo R64

2024-09-13 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/13/2024 07:03 AM, George at Clug wrote:



On Friday, 13-09-2024 at 20:17 Richard Owlett wrote:

On 09/13/2024 03:56 AM, Hans wrote:

Hi Richard,

exchanging the keyboard yourself might be not a great thing. If it is not an
apple computer, where you have to strip the whole computer, most keyboards are
very simple to echange.[snip]


ROFL
The keyboard is not the only problem.
I was an electronics tech back in the 60's and have serviced early color
TVs (CTC2 anyone?), isotope ratio mass spectrometers, control room
equipment for nuclear power plant, etc etc ;}
You learn things in over a half century ;}!

As I said elsewhere:

Don't have tools nor dexterity ;/
However the local community college has a computer repair service as
training aid for one of their degree programs.
Having been a tech, there's things I want done that could be valuable
background for a new graduate.


Also they have convenient access to parts.


Richard, please let us know how you go with your laptop.


May be a while. "Round TUIT" is MIA.



My son's first laptop's keyboard has a number of keys that seem worn out, 
making logging in problematic without an external USB keyboard.

Tried cleaning but that did not help, cannot guarantee I did a great job, 
though.

Works great if we plug in a USB keyboard and mouse. Just not as convenient.


In my case it may be more convenient. The USB is long enough to have 
better keyboard placement.




Speaking about Keyboard issues, I have some desktops that I cannot get to bios 
unless I use a PS/2 keyboard (i.e. they bios does not recognise USB), so I keep 
a few PS/2 keyboards in the cupboard for when I want to do bios changes. (I 
hope this makes someone smile)

You may have already reported the answer to my question, but "does a USB keyboard 
allow you to log in as yourself and as root?"


Yes.



Like you I once worked with Colour TVs as it was being introduced, much later 
than you did...
For historical amusement, in Australia:
https://www.nfsa.gov.au/collection/curated/colour-tv-australia
The colour TV revolution hit Australia 40 years ago, on 1 March 1975


The CTC2 has a special place in memories. I was a young tech for RCA 
Service in mid-60's. Our shop tech quit doing in-home calls. I got most 
of his customers. One was worried about a wet-behind-ears kid working on 
his set (2nd or 3rd year production). Relaxed when he found out my set 
was older than his ;}


Australia was a bit slow at jumping into Colour TV technology. Hopefully we are 
a bit faster these days on getting into new technology.

George.

Re: Circumventing keyboard problem on Lenovo R64

2024-09-13 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/13/2024 03:56 AM, Hans wrote:

Hi Richard,

exchanging the keyboard yourself might be not a great thing. If it is not an
apple computer, where you have to strip the whole computer, most keyboards are
very simple to echange.[snip]


ROFL
The keyboard is not the only problem.
I was an electronics tech back in the 60's and have serviced early color 
TVs (CTC2 anyone?), isotope ratio mass spectrometers, control room 
equipment for nuclear power plant, etc etc ;}

You learn things in over a half century ;}!

As I said elsewhere:

Don't have tools nor dexterity ;/
However the local community college has a computer repair service as
training aid for one of their degree programs.
Having been a tech, there's things I want done that could be valuable
background for a new graduate.


Also they have convenient access to parts.

Re: Circumventing keyboard problem on Lenovo R64

2024-09-13 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/12/2024 08:35 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 09/12/2024 07:13 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

i Ricard,


It has a keyboard failure - the "h" key is intermittent and my primary
account is "Richard" ;/


[ I presume you know tat tis kind of failure can often (sadly not
   always) be fixed by cleaning.  ]


I have other symptoms that hint that there's a temperature problem with 
key decoding.


It's evidently a hard failure.
Left it off overnight and its there.
The local community college has a computer repair service as training 
aid for one of their degree programs.

Will see if they can handle.







I have no problem logging in as root.

Two primary questions:
1. is there someway that I can use a USB connected keyboard
    as workaround while root?


I can't tink of any reason wy tat wouldn't "just work".
ave you tried?


Now I have. It works ;}




2. is there some way to switch from "root" to "Richard" without
    having to type to the pop-up that shows when using
    System->Logout... ?


Probably, and tat probably depends on wat you mean by "switc" and on te
kind of "display manager" you're using (many of tem give you a list of
users from wic you can select by clicking).
You can also (as root) cange your user's name to remove tat pesky
`` letter.



Relevant man page to have 'root' edit a user's login name?

TIA





 Stefan

Re: Circumventing keyboard problem on Lenovo R64


On 09/12/2024 09:54 AM, Hans wrote:

Didn't seem to work on 2 machines using different flavors of Debian.
Where is that documented so I can run a verifiable test?




You are right. I rechecked this and it does not work correctly, because of a 
bug in KDE. The
problem is, when starting another session, your former session is locking. But 
you can not
unlock your session again, even with the correct password. I know about this 
for more than 3
years and reported the bug long time ago. It is still not fied, but this is not 
the point here.



Apart from this, check it. I am running KDE (plasma) and you get the option "change 
user"
from the K-menu.

Do this, and you start with the windowmanager you preset in your favourite 
login manager (I
am using lightdm, but sddm or gdm might work as well, too).

When both windowmanagers are started, you can click every time to "change user" 
and then
get the option, to chose, to which you want to switch.



But as I said before: The former one has a locked screen and can not be 
unlocked. I suppose,
this is a rights problem and the locking mechanism is set by root and rooit 
must unloc it. But as
you want to unlock the screen as normal user, it will not work. Maybe sometimes 
this will be
fixed. However, it does not harm the function of starting a second window 
managers for another
user.



If someone might also confirm of this little bug I mentioned here and knows 
better than me, he
may just file a little bugreport to the developers of KDE. Maybe he also nows a 
little
workaround???


Hope this helps and makes things clearer.



But I use MATE.
I'm still interested in documentation of what is intended to happen.



Best regards

Hans

Re: Circumventing keyboard problem on Lenovo R64


On 09/12/2024 08:40 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 08:35:25AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

[...]


Relevant man page to have 'root' edit a user's login name?


See usermod, option -l.


The wording of the text under that option does not give a "warm fuzzy" 
feeling that I understand what's happening.


[ https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=%22tutorial%22%20%22usermod%22 ]
gives many hits. Is there a listed/unlisted tutorial you would recommend.

As I've said elsewhere today:
I'm a firm believer in "If in doubt, *DON'T*" . 


TIA





Heed the caveats in the man page (and all other places where the user
name might be hidden).

Sounds like some fun.

(Of course you could just edit /etc/passwd, but then you wouldn't get
to see the caveats in the man page: those do matter)

Cheers

Re: Circumventing keyboard problem on Lenovo R64


On 09/12/2024 08:50 AM, Joe wrote:

On Thu, 12 Sep 2024 08:35:25 -0500
Richard Owlett  wrote:





Relevant man page to have 'root' edit a user's login name?

TIA



Looks like usermod, according to the first page Google shows for:
   debian change user name

https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/howto-change-rename-user-name-id/



That page demonstrates why I'm cautious about blindly following Google 
hits. See post by to...@tuxteam.de .

Re: Circumventing keyboard problem on Lenovo R64


On 09/12/2024 09:14 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 14:50:23 +0100, Joe wrote:

On Thu, 12 Sep 2024 08:35:25 -0500
Richard Owlett  wrote:

Relevant man page to have 'root' edit a user's login name?


Looks like usermod, according to the first page Google shows for:
   debian change user name


I prefer vipw(8).  But that's just me.


I don't think a "newbie" should be referred to vipw(8) as
[ https://manpages.debian.org/bookworm/passwd/vipw.8.en.html ]
does *NOT* contain caveats/warnings equivalent to those in
[ https://manpages.debian.org/bookworm/passwd/usermod.8.en.html ]

I.E. I will follow reasoning of to...@tuxteam.de .



You'll also want to read passwd(5) and shadow(5).

I would highly recommend *not* being logged in as the user whose name
is being changed at the time.  Do a direct root console or ssh login.
Unless you have a second unprivileged account that can su/sudo to root
to make the changes to the first account.

You'll probably want to rename the home directory, so mv(1) applies.

If the user has a crontab file, you may want to find that and rename
it as well.

If you're using /var/mail for user mailboxes, you may want to rename
the user's mailbox file too.

There may be other things I can't think of right now.

Re: Circumventing keyboard problem on Lenovo R64


On 09/12/2024 08:03 AM, Hans wrote:

Solves wrong problem ;}
I couldn't log in as "Richard" at power-up.
But Stefan hints at solution to that problem.


Ah, ok, you are in X. Do you now, you can start a second windowmanager as root
without logoff as the other user?

If doing so, you can switch between both with "CTL + ALT + F7" (standard
graphical terminalport in debian for first user) and "CTL + ALT + F8" (next
graphical port for secon user).


Didn't seem to work on 2 machines using different flavors of Debian.
Where is that documented so I can run a verifiable test?




This might becoming handy, when often switch between root and normal user.

Just an idea.

Nice, that your problem is solved!

Have a nice day!

Hans

Re: Circumventing keyboard problem on Lenovo R64


On 09/12/2024 07:17 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

Richard Owlett composed on 2024-09-12 06:43 (UTC-0500):


I have a Lenovo R61 running 64 bit Buster.
It has a keyboard failure - the "h" key is intermittent and my primary
account is "Richard" ;/


Instead of a band aid, attack the keyboard with high PSI compressed air and/or
vacuum cleaner while banging on h. If these fail to restore reliability to h,
consider trying some aerosol electronic contact cleaner.



Don't have tools nor dexterity ;/
However the local community college has a computer repair service as 
training aid for one of their degree programs.
Having been a tech, there's things I want done that could be valuable 
background for a new graduate.

Re: Circumventing keyboard problem on Lenovo R64


On 09/12/2024 07:13 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

i Ricard,


It has a keyboard failure - the "h" key is intermittent and my primary
account is "Richard" ;/


[ I presume you know tat tis kind of failure can often (sadly not
   always) be fixed by cleaning.  ]


I have other symptoms that hint that there's a temperature problem with 
key decoding.





I have no problem logging in as root.

Two primary questions:
1. is there someway that I can use a USB connected keyboard
as workaround while root?


I can't tink of any reason wy tat wouldn't "just work".
ave you tried?


Now I have. It works ;}




2. is there some way to switch from "root" to "Richard" without
having to type to the pop-up that shows when using
System->Logout... ?


Probably, and tat probably depends on wat you mean by "switc" and on te
kind of "display manager" you're using (many of tem give you a list of
users from wic you can select by clicking).
You can also (as root) cange your user's name to remove tat pesky
`` letter.



Relevant man page to have 'root' edit a user's login name?

TIA





 Stefan

Re: Circumventing keyboard problem on Lenovo R64


On 09/12/2024 06:59 AM, Hans wrote:

Hi Richard,

Am Donnerstag, 12. September 2024, 13:43:49 CEST schrieb Richard Owlett:

I have a Lenovo R61 running 64 bit Buster.
It has a keyboard failure - the "h" key is intermittent and my primary
account is "Richard" ;/

I have no problem logging in as root.

Two primary questions:
1. is there someway that I can use a USB connected keyboard
 as workaround while root?


I am not sure, what you mean. If you connect an USB-keyboard into a notebook,
then both should work.


Having >60 years of being forms of "tech support" experience, I'm a firm 
believer in "If in doubt, *DON'T*" .

But you and Simon suggested it.
It worked. Thanks!





2. is there some way to switch from "root" to "Richard" without
 having to type to the pop-up that shows when using
 System->Logout... ?


You can login as Richard, then do "su -" and become root. After this, type
"CTRL + d" and you are Richard again.

In X (i.e. in konsole or term or any other terminal), started as normal user
Richard, you can type "su -p", then start any graphical programm you nee fro
this console. It will run with root rights.

After it just close the terminal or type in "CTRL + d" and you arte back to
Richard again.

This is handy, when you need only few applications as root. For eample, when
you need to edit a *.conf file as root and you might want edit with "kwrite"
for eample. So you need not to logoff and logon as root, just do as described
above: start terminal, su -p, start kwrite, CTL + d = finished.

Does this help?


Solves wrong problem ;}
I couldn't log in as "Richard" at power-up.
But Stefan hints at solution to that problem.




TIA



Best

Hans

Circumventing keyboard problem on Lenovo R64


I have a Lenovo R61 running 64 bit Buster.
It has a keyboard failure - the "h" key is intermittent and my primary 
account is "Richard" ;/


I have no problem logging in as root.

Two primary questions:
1. is there someway that I can use a USB connected keyboard
   as workaround while root?
2. is there some way to switch from "root" to "Richard" without
   having to type to the pop-up that shows when using
   System->Logout... ?

TIA

Re: BASH reference for those who are "learning by doing"?

2024-09-09 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/09/2024 06:29 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 09/08/2024 12:22 PM, Yassine Chaouche wrote:

Missed (deleted) the start of the discussion.

Not sure if it helps but:
I juste made public my toolbox.txt file: 
https://ychaouche.github.io/toolbox.txt

it is meant to be open in emacs,
so that you can use its outliner mode and read only what you're 
interested in.



I've never successfully used Emacs [an attempt made several months ago].
The GUI version is available on my machine.
HELP menu displays:

This is GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.11)
 of 2017-09-12 on x86-grnet-01, modified by Debian

How do I display/activate "outliner mode"?
Is appropriate "HELP" documentation of using "outliner mode" available 
as web page?




Yes ;}
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Outline-Mode.html

I now have today's reading assignment. Retirement can be convenient.



The relevant part is in "** command line tricks" 
(https://i.imgur.com/eqBjD0n.png)


I tried to display in my browser (SeaMonkey 2.49.4) and got only an
empty dark gray screen.



You can also take a look at https://ychaouche.github.io/bash.txt,
but it is less of a "learn by doing" and more of a quick cheat sheet 
that helps you write or read bash code.


I assume that is also meant to be read using "outliner mode".

The notes will give me practice in reading French which I haven't done 
since high school (1961).


Thanks for trying.





I use these two files (and more) to organize and quickly access 
knowledge gems,

so that once I learn something I need to remember 6 months from now,
I just look at one of the files
(or use my notes.search script,
but that's another topic).

Best,

Re: Glasses for monitor work (was Re: BASH reference for those who are "learning by doing"?)

2024-09-09 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/08/2024 12:12 PM, Stephen P. Molnar wrote:



On 09/08/2024 12:17 PM, Steve McIntyre wrote:

debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:

Richard Owlett  wrote:

[My examples are from my experiments with re-formatting
text at https://ebible.org/engkjvcpb/ for comfortable reading by
fellow tri-focal wearing senior citizens

As a mere bifocal (well vari-focal) wearer can I suggest a different
approach. Stop wearing tri-focals or any other variable focus specs for
reading a computer screen. Tell them to get a [very cheap] pair of
single focus reading glasses made to suit the distance their screen is
away.

I did this years ago and wouldn't try to do it any other way now. The
bliss of being able to read the whole screen comfortably without moving
if I want to.

100% agreed. When I started with varifocals 3 years ago, my optician
strongly recommended also getting a set of fixed-focus glasses for
monitor work. Despite the inconvenience of carrying multiple pairs of
glasses, I totally understand why - it makes a huge difference when
I'm sat in front of the screen for hours at a time.


I concur. My computer glasses have removed a lot of monitor fatigue.



I'm very nearsighted with a significant astigmatism correction.
For general use I wear my tri-focals.
For computer/desk use I have a pair of bi-focals as the correction 
needed for looking at screen is enough different than that for looking 
at notes on my desktop [or keyboard ;].

Re: BASH reference for those who are "learning by doing"?

2024-09-09 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/08/2024 12:22 PM, Yassine Chaouche wrote:

Missed (deleted) the start of the discussion.

Not sure if it helps but:
I juste made public my toolbox.txt file: 
https://ychaouche.github.io/toolbox.txt

it is meant to be open in emacs,
so that you can use its outliner mode and read only what you're 
interested in.



I've never successfully used Emacs [an attempt made several months ago].
The GUI version is available on my machine.
HELP menu displays:

This is GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.11)
 of 2017-09-12 on x86-grnet-01, modified by Debian

How do I display/activate "outliner mode"?
Is appropriate "HELP" documentation of using "outliner mode" available 
as web page?




The relevant part is in "** command line tricks" 
(https://i.imgur.com/eqBjD0n.png)


I tried to display in my browser (SeaMonkey 2.49.4) and got only an
empty dark gray screen.



You can also take a look at https://ychaouche.github.io/bash.txt,
but it is less of a "learn by doing" and more of a quick cheat sheet 
that helps you write or read bash code.


I assume that is also meant to be read using "outliner mode".

The notes will give me practice in reading French which I haven't done 
since high school (1961).


Thanks for trying.





I use these two files (and more) to organize and quickly access 
knowledge gems,

so that once I learn something I need to remember 6 months from now,
I just look at one of the files
(or use my notes.search script,
but that's another topic).

Best,

Re: BASH reference for those who are "learning by doing"?

2024-09-08 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/07/2024 10:36 PM, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 08/09/2024 04:22, Richard Owlett wrote:


[My examples are from my experiments with re-formatting
text at https://ebible.org/engkjvcpb/ for comfortable reading by 
fellow tri-focal wearing senior citizens - that I want to minimize the 
number of HTML tags & eliminating all CSS usage annoys some HTML5 
purists ;]


Instead of BASH and regular expression use some programming language 
where a reliable HTML parser is available. E.g. in python you may use 
lxml.html.html5parser, lxml.etree.HTMLParser, BeautifulSoup.


Calibre aggressively strips CSS and some markup during conversion of 
HTML pages to various ebook formats.





Quoting myself:

This started with exploring "regular expressions".
I discovered some tutorials that were using Bash in their samples.

Re: BASH reference for those who are "learning by doing"?

2024-09-08 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/07/2024 06:51 PM, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sat, Sep 07, 2024 at 22:00:27 +, Quaeryth wrote:

A query like "site:stackoverflow.com bash how to read file into variable" via
Google or DuckDuckGo (and maybe other search engines) usually points me in
the right direction. Good luck with your experiments!


What kind of file?
What kind of variable?
What are you planning to do with the variable after you've stored data
in it?

[snip]


I'll quote myself:


This started with exploring "regular expressions".
I discovered some tutorials that were using Bash in their samples.
One {lost the reference at the moment} was almost a match for a real
world problem I have. >
But I've not used Bash in eons and have forgotten how to read a file
into a single variable or a array variable.


I have 2 relevant test cases:
  1. a file of a single line approximately 200 characters.
 [teststring1.txt]
  2. a file with ~20 lines whose size is 4.5k.
 [teststring1.txt]

How?

Re: BASH reference for those who are "learning by doing"?

2024-09-07 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/07/2024 03:46 PM, Quaeryth wrote:

On 2024-09-07 11:50, Richard Owlett wrote:

This started with be exploring "regular expressions".
I discovered some tutorials that were using Bash in their samples.
One {lost the reference at the moment} was almost a match for a real
world problem I have.

But I've not used Bash in eons and have forgotten how to read a file
into a single variable or a array variable.

I've downloaded "Bash Reference Manual"
 [https://www.gnu.org/savannah-checkouts/gnu/bash/manual/bash.html]
for when I need fine grained details.
I've bookmarked the various links on
 [https://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashFAQ]
for quick reference.

I find neither to be search friendly.

Suggestions?

TIA


When I've been in the same position, I don't know that I have a single
go-to resource. Instead I tend to search for what I'm wanting to do at
the moment and then check out results that seem relevant from
https://stackoverflow.com/. I usually have pretty good luck there.
https://devhints.io/bash may be helpful, and a couple of the other pages
linked at the top looked pretty good, too (e.g. the wiki you referenced).


Problem is they are pedagogy oriented so to speak. I'm looking for 
easier searchability (real word? ;).




Unsolicited thoughts: When it comes to regexes (regular expressions),
the syntax can depend on where/in what (programming) language or
application you're using it. When I was trying to sort it all out I
stumbled upon https://www.regular-expressions.info/, which was a big
help to me. If you click on "Tools & Languages" at the top of the page,
you can also get explanations for how regexes are implemented in your
particular context. I used this site as a reference while trying to pull
data out of log files at work in a text editor (Sublime Text, which I
highly recommend for immediate feedback on your regex attempts). If you
don't have a big file to practice with, try saving one of the links on
https://openbible.com/texts.htm for a copy of the Christian Bible in a
single text file. I'm sure there's other text files like that out there
if that's not your cup of tea. Good luck with regex; each time I need it
is a fun and useful puzzle to solve.


I've got helpful references for regular expressions. Their examples use 
Bash as the vehicle. I want to get my real world examples into Bash so I 
can follow the example techniques given.


[My examples are from my experiments with re-formatting
text at https://ebible.org/engkjvcpb/ for comfortable reading by fellow 
tri-focal wearing senior citizens - that I want to minimize the number 
of HTML tags & eliminating all CSS usage annoys some HTML5 purists ;]




Quaeryth

BASH reference for those who are "learning by doing"?

2024-09-07 Thread Richard Owlett


This started with be exploring "regular expressions".
I discovered some tutorials that were using Bash in their samples.
One {lost the reference at the moment} was almost a match for a real 
world problem I have.


But I've not used Bash in eons and have forgotten how to read a file 
into a single variable or a array variable.


I've downloaded "Bash Reference Manual"
  [https://www.gnu.org/savannah-checkouts/gnu/bash/manual/bash.html] 
for when I need fine grained details.

I've bookmarked the various links on
  [https://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashFAQ]
for quick reference.

I find neither to be search friendly.

Suggestions?

TIA

Re: Is "How-To use MATE" documented?

2024-09-05 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/05/2024 06:09 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:

On Sep 05, 2024, Richard Owlett wrote:

I found:
I need to know how icons are placed on the default screen which
displays the contents of "/home/richard/.config/Desktop".

Placement is where ever cursor happens to to be.
How can I get them into nice even rows and columns.


Isn't that based on the (right-click) context menu "Align to Grid"
option?  If it's enabled, things are forced to the grid; disabled, icons
can go where-ever.


With that as a hint I right-clicked in an empty area.
A "menu" appeared. One line said "Keep Aligned". I had a check mark.

The gradation of "acceptable" locations is much to fine to be useful.

Again, where is any of this documented?

You tried ;/

[MATE is quite intuitive. Been using it since it came out.]




Been a while since I've used MATE though, might still have a VM with it
as an option that I can check in a few hours, if nobody corrects me
beforehand.

Is "How-To use MATE" documented?

2024-09-05 Thread Richard Owlett


I found:
   1. https://mate-desktop.org/
  -- no mention of user oriented documentation
   2. https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/
  Titled "Welcome to the documentation"
  Under the heading "Good Documentation" it explicitly says:
 > Every application comes with its own help dialogue. Furthermore
 > there are lots of online tutorials.

But Where

I need to know how icons are placed on the default screen which displays 
the contents of "/home/richard/.config/Desktop".


Placement is where ever cursor happens to to be.
How can I get them into nice even rows and columns.

Re: Laptop screen dim on battery power

2024-09-01 Thread Richard Owlett


On 09/01/2024 06:09 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Sun, Sep 01, 2024 at 05:15:01AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

Lenovo R61 ThinkPad
Debian 10.0 MATE 1.20.4
The screen automatically dims when AC removed.
System->Hardware->Power Management->OnBatteryPower->Display
"Reduce backlight brightness" & "Dim display when idle" unchecked


I'd look first at laptop-mode, coming with the like-named package.
It has a man page and a config file.

Is it installed in your box?

Cheers



No, it's not installed.
I'll install it when I can update Debian.
Thanks

Laptop screen dim on battery power

2024-09-01 Thread Richard Owlett


Lenovo R61 ThinkPad
Debian 10.0 MATE 1.20.4
The screen automatically dims when AC removed.
System->Hardware->Power Management->OnBatteryPower->Display
"Reduce backlight brightness" & "Dim display when idle" unchecked

Any where else to look?
TIA

Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

2024-08-29 Thread Richard Owlett

My formal programming background is limited to an introductory course 
using CORC/CUPL (Dartmouth's BASIC being years in future). My last 
production code used 8080 assembler - my employer hadn't yet switched 
completely to 8085. I've owned a variety of machines - early a PET and a 
Kim. Still have a Kaypro 10 in a back room - haven't booted in decades.


On 08/28/2024 09:07 PM, Michael Stone wrote:

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 09:10:21AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 08/27/2024 08:14 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:

Richard Owlett wrote:

I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
current Debian release.

I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.
Processors identified by running lscpu:

Machine 1:
Architecture:    i686
Model name:    Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU   M 540  @ 2.53GHz

Machine 2:
Architecture:    x86_64
Model name:    Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T7300  @ 2.00GHz

Machine 3:
Architecture:    i686
Model name:    Pentium(R) Dual-Core  CPU  E5300  @ 2.60GHz

Will the OS linked to by https://www.debian.org/ run on all three?
[For historical reasons I currently run 32 bit on all.]



[snip static ;]


All of these CPUs should run Debian amd64.


Weak point there is the word "should". Based on *your* background.
I was looking for documentation that *does not* assume the reader has 
some unspecified expertise.


Did the documentation tell you to run lscpu and do something with the 
architecture field?


No *GRIN* But is one of reasons I asked.
Over a half century of real real world experience suggested lscpu would 
be a suitable reporting tool.


It seems to me that you're doing your own thing in 
your own way and expecting us to accomodate that, which seems at least 
somewhat unreasonable. For background: the lscpu architecture field 
doesn't tell you what kind of cpu you're running. Instead, it tells you 
the architecture of the system on which lscpu is running, and more 
specifically, what architecture the *kernel* is built for.


DEBIAN documentation appears to disagree with you.The manpage[1] states:

lscpu - display information about the CPU architecture


Only suggestion that it may not be physical reality is when it states:

In virtualized environments, the CPU architecture information displayed
reflects the configuration of the guest operating system which is
typically different from the physical (host) system.




FWIW, there isn't any reasonably general x86 OS that maintains a 
comprehensive list of every possible computer model it will run on.


That was *NOT* the question.

I ask "What doth DEBIAN require of my CPU?"

[1] https://manpages.debian.org/bookworm/util-linux/lscpu.1.en.html

Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

2024-08-27 Thread Richard Owlett


On 08/27/2024 08:36 AM, David wrote:

On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 at 13:06, Richard Owlett  wrote:


I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
current Debian release.

I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.


To add to Dan's reply:
https://www.debian.org/ports/


No mention of i686 nor x86_64.


https://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/


No mention of i686 nor x86_64.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64


Not Debian documentation.
Though x86_64 is mentioned in footnotes there is none to indicate that 
i686 can run Debian 64 bit software (only mention is about 32 bit)



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IA-32


Not Debian documentation and OFF-TOPIC as it is strictly about 32 bit.

Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

2024-08-27 Thread Richard Owlett

On 08/27/2024 08:14 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:

Richard Owlett wrote:

I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
current Debian release.

I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.
Processors identified by running lscpu:

Machine 1:
Architecture: i686
Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU M 540 @ 2.53GHz

Machine 2:
Architecture: x86_64
Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T7300 @ 2.00GHz

Machine 3:
Architecture: i686
Model name: Pentium(R) Dual-Core CPU E5300 @ 2.60GHz

Will the OS linked to by https://www.debian.org/ run on all three?
[For historical reasons I currently run 32 bit on all.]

https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch02s01.en.html

That was the USELESS page prompting the question!

and

https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch02s01.en.html

That page is 32 bit oriented. I wish to run *64 bit*.

will tell you that the difference is whether the CPU has the
amd64 (also called x86_64) instruction set.

So machine 2 with the t7300 will definitely run the amd64 release.

Next you need to look at the manufacturer's documentation. In
this case, Intel:

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/35300/intel-pentium-processor-e5300-2m-cache-2-60-ghz-800-mhz-fsb.html
says that the e5300 has the 64 bit instruction set, so it will
also run the amd64 release.

OFF-TOPIC: I explicitly asked for *DEBIAN DOCUMENTATION*.

and

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/30774/intel-celeron-processor-540-1m-cache-1-86-ghz-533-mhz-fsb.html
says that the M540 also has that, so will also run amd64.

OFF-TOPIC: I explicitly asked for *DEBIAN DOCUMENTATION*.

All of these CPUs should run Debian amd64.

Weak point there is the word "should". Based on *your* background.
I was looking for documentation that *does not* assume the reader has
some unspecified expertise.

-dsr-

DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

2024-08-27 Thread Richard Owlett

I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support 
current Debian release.


I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.
Processors identified by running lscpu:

Machine 1:
Architecture:   i686
Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU   M 540  @ 2.53GHz

Machine 2:
Architecture:   x86_64
Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T7300  @ 2.00GHz

Machine 3:
Architecture:   i686
Model name: Pentium(R) Dual-Core  CPU  E5300  @ 2.60GHz

Will the OS linked to by https://www.debian.org/ run on all three?
[For historical reasons I currently run 32 bit on all.]

TIA

Re: What tool(s) reports OS buss width, which processor present?

2024-08-21 Thread Richard Owlett


On 08/21/2024 06:39 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Wed, Aug 21, 2024 at 06:34:30AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

I know I've asked this before, but couldn't thread.
/etc/debian_version reports release active, but I need to know 32 or 64 bit.
TIA


uname -a

This tells you the *kernel* version. Note that for most architectures,
the 64 bit version can run 32 bit applications fine if you make sure to
have the libs installed.

So "the release 'is' 64 bit" or "... 32 bit" is misleading.

Cheers



Yes BUT 
I have hardware which is 64 bit but at different has been running both 
32 and 64 bit Debian. I need to know which was active now.


Thanks

DUH - was [Re: What tool(s) reports OS buss width, which processor present?]

2024-08-21 Thread Richard Owlett


On 08/21/2024 06:34 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

I know I've asked this before, but couldn't thread.
/etc/debian_version reports release active, but I need to know 32 or 64 
bit.

TIA




Just finished coffee - inspiration
I use MATE
  just checked Application->System Tools->Mate System Monitor
I tells all ;)

It's not the answer I received before but is MATE specific.
The answer I had been given depended only on Debian itself.

Sorry for the noise.

What tool(s) reports OS buss width, which processor present?

2024-08-21 Thread Richard Owlett


I know I've asked this before, but couldn't thread.
/etc/debian_version reports release active, but I need to know 32 or 64 bit.
TIA

Re: LAST 32 bit release WITH installer?


On 08/20/2024 02:39 PM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Tue, Aug 20, 2024 at 12:39:30PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

I'm confused.
I have 2 old-fashioned 32 bit i386 machines.
What is/will be last release with installer?
TIA



Richard,

The last point release of Debian 12 - probably 12.11 or 12.12 if we keep up
the release cadence we're following. Maybe June 2026 a year after the
release of Trixie in June 2025??

Last release of Debian 11 should be 11.11 on 31st August 2024. That's
following transition from Debian security support to LTS.

At this point, 32 bit Intel/AMD hardware should be considered fit
for recycling for the precious metal content.

All the best, as ever

Andrew Cater
(amaca...@debian.org)




As those two machines are not connecting to outside world adding 
additional software after the first few months won't be an issue.

{one machine still has WinXp ;/

Thank you.

LAST 32 bit release WITH installer?


I'm confused.
I have 2 old-fashioned 32 bit i386 machines.
What is/will be last release with installer?
TIA

Trixie and i386 - was [Re: Default partition mounts [ "Installation Guide" lacks index ]]


On 08/20/2024 05:45 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 08/20/2024 04:30 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

[snip]
There will be non i386 installer medium for Trixie when released though
i386 will be retained as a release architecture.


Can you point me to the details. I have two i386 I wish to use as long 
as possible.


I don't know if this is what Andrew was referring to, but I just found:

Debian 13 will continue to support 32 bit x86 processors, however
the lower limit is now i686.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_version_history
which refers to
"Debian Trixie release notes"
https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/release-notes/issues.en.html#i386-is-i686
which states (in part)

5.1.13. Baseline for 32-bit PC is now i686¶

Debian's support for 32-bit PC (known as the Debian architecture i386)
now no longer covers any i586 processor. The new minimum requirement
is i686. This means that the i386 architecture now requires the "long NOP" 
(NOPL)
instruction, while bullseye still supported some i586 processors without
that instruction (e.g. the "AMD Geode").


[snip]

Re: Default partition mounts [ "Installation Guide" lacks index ]


On 08/20/2024 04:30 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Tue, Aug 20, 2024 at 03:44:03AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 08/19/2024 02:51 PM, Andy Smith wrote:

Hi,

I'm afraid I have not got the kind of answer you request for your
actual question but…



Hi Richard,

A first question: is this your main computer?


No. But it is one of my *NEWER* machineS.
My i386 based desktop preceded Debian Stretch by several years ;}
Its primary attraction is that it is a conveniently available and 
suitably capable machine.




The R61 is from 2007 or so - so more than 15 years old.
It has a 160GB spinning disk, if I'm reading the specs correctly, and 1GB of
memory.


I routinely use a Dell Latitude E6410. [circa 2010 IIRC ;]




On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 06:19:26AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

I'm over 80 and doing first "from scratch" install since Squeeze ;}
Hardware is Lenovo R61 ThinkPad (64 bit).
I multi boot [Grub will have at least three options]:
1. minimalist installation - primarily command line usage
2. 64 bit Debian with maximum features
3. 32 bit Debian - couple of applications require a 32 bit OS


All 32-bit x86 software runs on a 64-bit kernel no problem¹ on
Debian, so it's unlikely you actually need to dedicate a whole
install to a 32-bit kernel, which also as previously mentioned has a
single digit of years of remaining lifetime in Debian.


I don't see anything on https://wiki.debian.org/LTS that implies shorter
lifetime for i386 than anything else.


There will be non i386 installer medium for Trixie when released though
i386 will be retained as a release architecture.


Can you point me to the details. I have two i386 I wish to use as long 
as possible.
[I suspect I could satisfy much of my usage with my Kaypro 10 if dial-up 
service still existed ;]



There are already
packages which cannot be built within i386 limitations so the architecture
is mostly built using amd64. Some packages for i386 will not now build
even on amd64 because of compiler changes. i386 is dead but won't lie down :)


You mean there are others like me out there? *ROFL*






4. other installs with strong project dependencies


Dependencies can indeed get out of hand sometimes.


I wasn't speaking of "software dependencies". For different projects I want
different "working environments".



A single install with all directories in one partition using LVM would be
most straightforward. In 160GB and booting using MBR/legacy, you may
run out of disk physical partitions anyway.

Install with GUI for general use. Switch to a full screen VT for
command line use, maybe?


I'm a GUI person. Though I date from 026/KSR35 era I do like some modern 
conveniences.






I don't know how much you are up for a learning experience but
virtual machines or containers can often be a good way to
compartmentalise projects and their dependencies without needing to
do whole separate installs.



Absolutely agreed: the problem is the 1GB memory





I looked into VMs long ago. For my style - no advantages worth the effort.


Finally there can be systemd .mount units outside of fstab, but
again that is not typical and you'd know if you added those.

Thanks,
Andy





Richard,

You are going to be *significantly* limited by hardware here with the
size and memory requirements of modern Debian. Make life simpler:
install a desktop environment with lower memory requirements like XFCE
and try and minimise diverse requirements.

*DO* read the release notes. If you want to make significant customisations,
I'd suggest a text only install, maybe using the expert install option.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy
(amaca...@debian.org)

Re: Default partition mounts [ "Installation Guide" lacks index ]


On 08/19/2024 02:51 PM, Andy Smith wrote:

Hi,

I'm afraid I have not got the kind of answer you request for your
actual question but…

On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 06:19:26AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

I'm over 80 and doing first "from scratch" install since Squeeze ;}
Hardware is Lenovo R61 ThinkPad (64 bit).
I multi boot [Grub will have at least three options]:
   1. minimalist installation - primarily command line usage
   2. 64 bit Debian with maximum features
   3. 32 bit Debian - couple of applications require a 32 bit OS


All 32-bit x86 software runs on a 64-bit kernel no problem¹ on
Debian, so it's unlikely you actually need to dedicate a whole
install to a 32-bit kernel, which also as previously mentioned has a
single digit of years of remaining lifetime in Debian.


I don't see anything on https://wiki.debian.org/LTS that implies shorter 
lifetime for i386 than anything else.





   4. other installs with strong project dependencies


Dependencies can indeed get out of hand sometimes.


I wasn't speaking of "software dependencies". For different projects I 
want different "working environments".




I don't know how much you are up for a learning experience but
virtual machines or containers can often be a good way to
compartmentalise projects and their dependencies without needing to
do whole separate installs.

So you see, I think your use case can be handled with only one
Debian install, using containers or VMs for the projects with a lot
of dependencies. But I appreciate it's a lot to get stuck into.


I looked into VMs long ago. For my style - no advantages worth the effort.




Today's question
At boot time, what determines which physical partition gets mounted as a
specific directory ( /, /home, swap, and so forth )?


You asked for pointers to complete documentation on this and I can't
do that which is why I said this wasn't going to be an answer to
your actual question.

A summary however is that:

The grub entry provides an initramfs and a device for use as root.

The initramfs provides a temporary root filesystem containing all of
the tools necessary to mount the actual root device as root.

It then mounts root (which must also contain /etc). If root did not
also contain /usr then that is also mounted at this point.

The real init from the root filesystem (systemd) then takes
over, looks at /etc/fstab and mounts everything² in there at the
places it says.

So, there are multiple things going on here as regards what gets
mounted where. The bootloader entry decides which device / will be
on (you can test this by changing / in the fstab — whatever is in
the bootloader entry will prevail). The initramfs can mount things
outside of the direction of fstab but tyoically doesn't. Then the
init system from the real root filesystem reads /etc/fstab.

Finally there can be systemd .mount units outside of fstab, but
again that is not typical and you'd know if you added those.

Thanks,
Andy

¹ By which I mean if it runs on a 32-bit kernel it will work on a
   64-bit kernel as well unless they went out of their way to ensure
   it won't work.

² Some things in /etc/fstab can be set to "noauto" to prevent them
   being automatically mounted at boot time.

Re: Default partition mounts [ "Installation Guide" lacks index ]


On 08/19/2024 11:27 PM, David Christensen wrote:

On 8/19/24 04:19, Richard Owlett wrote:

I'm over 80 and doing first "from scratch" install since Squeeze ;}
Hardware is Lenovo R61 ThinkPad (64 bit).
I multi boot [Grub will have at least three options]:
   1. minimalist installation - primarily command line usage
   2. 64 bit Debian with maximum features
   3. 32 bit Debian - couple of applications require a 32 bit OS
   4. other installs with strong project dependencies

Today's question
At boot time, what determines which physical partition gets mounted as 
a specific directory ( /, /home, swap, and so forth )?


Please reference documentation as reading it will remind me of how and 
why I chose specific options.


TIA

P.S. - re-reading https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ ;}!



I tried multi-boot back in the day (e.g. BIOS/MBR) -- it was not for me. 


To each his own 

  My solution was to buy multiple disks and put one OS on each.  You 
could do this -- the disk drive in the Lenovo R61 ThinkPad is externally 
accessible:


https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+ThinkPad+R61i+Hard+Drive+Replacement/118125  
>


AIUI UEFI/GPT were designed to support multi-boot, but one-disk-per-OS 
is KISS -- each installer can have its way with the entire disk, and the 
installed OS just works (if it supports your hardware).



That said, the fundamental problem with either approach is that no 
matter which OS you are running, you want something in another OS that 
is not running.  Back in the day, I bought additional computers.  Today, 
there are several high quality hypervisors to choose from.



A key consideration is where to put your data, so that it is accessible 
from whichever OS you happen to be running.  Solutions include a file 
server, a NAS, and another drive with a lowest-common-denominator file 
system (e.g. FAT32, ExFAT, or NTFS).


I have a solution I like and fits my style/habits.
Thanks.

Re: Default partition mounts [ "Installation Guide" lacks index ]


On 08/19/2024 10:17 PM, David Wright wrote:

On Mon 19 Aug 2024 at 16:23:31 (-0600), Tom Dial wrote:

On 8/19/24 05:19, Richard Owlett wrote:

I'm over 80 and doing first "from scratch" install since Squeeze ;}
Hardware is Lenovo R61 ThinkPad (64 bit).
I multi boot [Grub will have at least three options]:
    1. minimalist installation - primarily command line usage
    2. 64 bit Debian with maximum features
    3. 32 bit Debian - couple of applications require a 32 bit OS
    4. other installs with strong project dependencies

Today's question
At boot time, what determines which physical partition gets mounted as a 
specific directory ( /, /home, swap, and so forth )?


In most cases, mount actions are as described in /etc/fstab of the image being 
booted.


AFAICT the /etc/fstab in the boot images of all my Debian systems
is empty. It's only when the root filesystem gets mounted that a
non-empty /etc/fstab becomes available.

OTOH a netinst installer's image does have a populated /etc/fstab,
but only with:

   devpts /dev/pts devpts  defaults0   0
   tmpfs  /run tmpfs   nosuid,size=10%,mode=7550   0
   proc   /procprocdefaults0   0
   sysfs  /sys sysfs   noauto  0   0

Cheers,
David.




As I said in a previous reply, the existence of "/etc/fstab" was the 
key. I read the *comments* I had put in mine had triggered memories of 
what I had done and why :}

Re: Default partition mounts [ "Installation Guide" lacks index ]

2024-08-19 Thread Richard Owlett


On 08/19/2024 10:57 AM, Joe wrote:

On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 08:44:39 -0500
Richard Owlett  wrote:


THANK YOU

On 08/19/2024 07:02 AM, David wrote:

On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 at 11:19, Richard Owlett 
wrote:

At boot time, what determines which physical partition gets
mounted as a specific directory ( /, /home, swap, and so forth )?

Please reference documentation as reading it will remind me of how
and why I chose specific options.


man 5 fstab


"fstab" was one of the keywords I'd forgotten.



https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.config-misc.html#sect.fstab-mount-points


Browsing that link suggests it will prompt me to ask needed questions.
It's not the document I was visualizing. I was expecting something
that I would have been reading when new to Linux.


Then what you want is not documentation but tutorials. You want
documentation when you know something you need to do but not the exact
details of how. Many man pages are rather short on examples, which
tutorials will provide.

Try Google with:
linux directory mounting on boot tutorial

This will turn up a lot of similar but not identical sites, varying
from a bald list of instructions to do a particular thing, to an
explanation of fundamentals. Some won't mean much to you, ignore them
and move on.

The first step is probably to look at /etc/fstab on a working system
and see what you can understand of it, and what you don't understand.
That's certainly where partitions are named, along with filesystem
directories and the mapping between them. The documentation is where
you find what the mounting parameters mean and do. Apart from fstab
itself, you'll need the man pages for the mount commands for whatever
filesystem types are named in fstab e.g. mount.cifs, as many parameters
are specific to the filesystem type.



IMHO "tutorial" is a sub-set of "documentation".
And the "magic string" is "/etc/fstab" ;}
[I had modified the one on this machine. Whenever I modify a default 
file, I *include comments* about *why*.]

Re: Default partition mounts [ "Installation Guide" lacks index ]

2024-08-19 Thread Richard Owlett


THANK YOU

On 08/19/2024 07:02 AM, David wrote:

On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 at 11:19, Richard Owlett  wrote:


At boot time, what determines which physical partition gets mounted as a
specific directory ( /, /home, swap, and so forth )?

Please reference documentation as reading it will remind me of how and
why I chose specific options.


man 5 fstab


"fstab" was one of the keywords I'd forgotten.



https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.config-misc.html#sect.fstab-mount-points


Browsing that link suggests it will prompt me to ask needed questions.
It's not the document I was visualizing. I was expecting something that 
I would have been reading when new to Linux.

[I remember 026, KSR35 and vacuum tube CPUs ;]

Thanks again.

Default partition mounts [ "Installation Guide" lacks index ]

2024-08-19 Thread Richard Owlett


I'm over 80 and doing first "from scratch" install since Squeeze ;}
Hardware is Lenovo R61 ThinkPad (64 bit).
I multi boot [Grub will have at least three options]:
  1. minimalist installation - primarily command line usage
  2. 64 bit Debian with maximum features
  3. 32 bit Debian - couple of applications require a 32 bit OS
  4. other installs with strong project dependencies

Today's question
At boot time, what determines which physical partition gets mounted as a 
specific directory ( /, /home, swap, and so forth )?


Please reference documentation as reading it will remind me of how and 
why I chose specific options.


TIA

P.S. - re-reading https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ ;}!

Re: Needed tool for vision-impaired - was [Re: PDF Editor for Debian]

2024-08-08 Thread Richard Owlett


On 06/24/2024 12:29 PM, Nicolas George wrote:

Karen Lewellen (12024-06-24):

Good afternoon.
I am providing another option that might help here.
robobraille,

www.robobraille.org
Provides services, free of charge, that will convert pdf files  to a number
of different formats, including .html
They provide audio, mobi, and  convert epub files too..but I digress.
As a test, consider sending your file to
convert at robobraille.org
  correctly of course.
in the subjectline put html
leaving the body blank, and attach the file.
See if the .html file returned meets your needs.


Interesting.

Do you know how they fare with math? I mean real, non-trivial formulas
produced by LaTeX like you would find in
https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.05929 ?

(I know, I could test. I will if you do not know the answer.)

Regards,



While looking for something else I found
https://www.robobraille.org/resources/software-and-tools/#math

Relevant &/or useful?
HTH

Re: TARDY response -- [Re: Needed tool for vision-impaired

2024-08-07 Thread Richard Owlett


On 08/07/2024 12:44 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

Richard Owlett composed on 2024-08-07 07:45 (UTC-0500):


I went to the site shortly after you posted.
*MY* browser (SeaMonkey 2.49.4  {32 bit Linux}) choked on it.
I didn't get a chance to visit local library to try another browser.
Forgot I had a copy of Firefox 68.10.0esr on my machine.
It ran fine.



I converted
"https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/TFP2021.pdf";
to both text and HTML.
The text version seems perfect.
The HTML version has problem of missing titles to several tables near
end of file. There are 15 tables one after another. All table *contents*
came thru OK. Only the last one had its associated title.



I'll give www.robobraille.org a heads-up about it.
As I've a peculiar local configuration of SeaMonkey, could another SM
user run a quick check so that I can report if their site has a problem
with SeaMonkey?


The PDF loads fine here in current SeaMonkey 2.53.18.2 64bit. I haven't used
2.49.x in five or so years. I use the static build hosted on
http://archive.seamonkey-project.org/releases/ .



Thank you.

TARDY response -- [Re: Needed tool for vision-impaired - was [Re: PDF Editor for Debian]]

2024-08-07 Thread Richard Owlett


On 06/24/2024 12:22 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

Good afternoon.
I am providing another option that might help here.
robobraille,

www.robobraille.org
Provides services, free of charge, that will convert pdf files  to a 
number of different formats, including .html

They provide audio, mobi, and  convert epub files too..but I digress.
As a test, consider sending your file to
convert at robobraille.org
  correctly of course.
in the subjectline put html
leaving the body blank, and attach the file.
See if the .html file returned meets your needs.
Best,
Karen



I went to the site shortly after you posted.
*MY* browser (SeaMonkey 2.49.4  {32 bit Linux}) choked on it.
I didn't get a chance to visit local library to try another browser.
Forgot I had a copy of Firefox 68.10.0esr on my machine.
It ran fine.

I converted 
"https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/TFP2021.pdf"; 
to both text and HTML.

The text version seems perfect.
The HTML version has problem of missing titles to several tables near 
end of file. There are 15 tables one after another. All table *contents* 
came thru OK. Only the last one had its associated title.


I'll give www.robobraille.org a heads-up about it.
As I've a peculiar local configuration of SeaMonkey, could another SM 
user run a quick check so that I can report if their site has a problem 
with SeaMonkey?


TIA






On Mon, 24 Jun 2024, Richard Owlett wrote:


On 06/24/2024 12:35 AM, Richard wrote:

 Hello,
 this very much depends on what you are expecting it to do. In general,
 PDFs
 are only meant to be viewed - and printed - they where never meant for
 anything else. ...


Second sentence should read:

 ... only meant to be viewed by those with *NORMAL* vision ...


I'm attempting to read a USDA document.[1]
The printed version of this document is marginally readable.

Tools such as "Atril Document Viewer" provide selected magnification.
For this particular document and monitor, 150% is comfortable. 
Requires re-positioning the viewpoint 500 to 600 times to read document.


For _this_ document, Atril can select all the text on a page in a 
manner that can be pasted in a "reasonable" manner to a Pluma document.


It will:
   a. ignore actual graphics.
   b. put title/headings/??? on a separate line.
   c. all text between full page-width title/headings/??? will be
 treated as a logical unit.
It will not:
   1. put a blank line between paragraphs.
   2. put a blank line above/below lines containing title/headings/???.
   3. identify superscripts in some manner.

All this suggests that it should be able to extract text from a PDF 
and create a HTML document likely using only , , , and 
 in its .



[1] 
https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/TFP2021.pdf 


    _Thrifty Food Plan, 2021_
    Food and Nutrition Service
    August 2021
    FNS-916

Re: Planned path - was [Re: Installing current i386 Debian on OLD syst W/O CD/DVD drive]

2024-08-02 Thread Richard Owlett


On 08/01/2024 02:33 PM, DdB wrote:

Am 01.08.2024 um 21:11 schrieb Richard Owlett:

I've never had occasion to use Grub's command line. Good time to learn.
The existing install is so old it has Grub 1.??? rather than 2.??? .
Should that make any practical difference to manual install?

Not sure about gpt vs mbr. I have whatever Gparted defaults to when
creating new partitions. I have no longer required partitions available.


Oh, grub-pc (a.k.a. grub1)?
I gotta confess: when i did join linux, there was grub1.98 already
available and for reasons outside this scope, i went for it.
i mean: i really have no idea about grub 1. Better ask someone else to
fill in.

gpt is much more flexible compared to the old mbr partitioning, but i do
not think, it would be necessary for you to change at this point. Just
check your scheme and use it, as you like. The merits of grub2 come
handy for a) large disks and b) uefi booting, both of which wont bother
you this weekend, right?

btw: to check, i would use

sudo sgdisk -p /dev/sda # or whatever disk you want to see, this will only 
output information, not change anything.




It reports:> ***

Found invalid GPT and valid MBR; converting MBR to GPT format
in memory. 
***


All my machines, purchased new or used, came with some version of 
Windows installed.


During initial installation of Debian Squeeze (or later) would I have 
been explicitly asked to choose between MBR and GPT?







Maybe pxe is an option? i never used it, and do not plan to do so
anytime soon.

however, have fun! ... this weekend :-)

OPERATOR ERROR ---- Re: Planned path - was [Re: Installing current i386 Debian on OLD syst W/O CD/DVD drive]

2024-08-02 Thread Richard Owlett


On 08/01/2024 02:11 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 08/01/2024 01:56 PM, DdB wrote:

Am 01.08.2024 um 17:33 schrieb Richard Owlett:
[SNIP]


I've never had occasion to use Grub's command line. Good time to learn.
The existing install is so old it has Grub 1.??? rather than 2.??? .
Should that make any practical difference to manual install?


I should have turned on the machines in question.
They report "GNU GRUB version 2.02~beta3-5"
Seniors should "check first" before "opening mouth and ..." ;/



Not sure about gpt vs mbr. I have whatever Gparted defaults to when 
creating new partitions. I have no longer required partitions available.


Wont have time available until tomorrow or Saturday to do the install.

Thanks.

Re: Planned path - was [Re: Installing current i386 Debian on OLD syst W/O CD/DVD drive]


On 08/01/2024 02:33 PM, DdB wrote:

Am 01.08.2024 um 21:11 schrieb Richard Owlett:

I've never had occasion to use Grub's command line. Good time to learn.
The existing install is so old it has Grub 1.??? rather than 2.??? .
Should that make any practical difference to manual install?

Not sure about gpt vs mbr. I have whatever Gparted defaults to when
creating new partitions. I have no longer required partitions available.


Oh, grub-pc (a.k.a. grub1)?
I gotta confess: when i did join linux, there was grub1.98 already
available and for reasons outside this scope, i went for it.
i mean: i really have no idea about grub 1. Better ask someone else to
fill in.

gpt is much more flexible compared to the old mbr partitioning, but i do
not think, it would be necessary for you to change at this point. Just
check your scheme and use it, as you like. The merits of grub2 come
handy for a) large disks and b) uefi booting, both of which wont bother
you this weekend, right?

btw: to check, i would use

sudo sgdisk -p /dev/sda # or whatever disk you want to see, this will only 
output information, not change anything.


Maybe pxe is an option? i never used it, and do not plan to do so
anytime soon.

however, have fun! ... this weekend :-)



I will *GRIN*
Part of why I'm involved in this is education.
The sgdisk man page links to some interesting looking material.
Someone had already raised pxe as a option which led to many links.
I suspect tomorrow will be a reading day ;}

Thanks all.

Re: Planned path - was [Re: Installing current i386 Debian on OLD syst W/O CD/DVD drive]


On 08/01/2024 01:56 PM, DdB wrote:

Am 01.08.2024 um 17:33 schrieb Richard Owlett:

In the phrase "to boot the installer using grub stanza (or manually)",
just what does "(or manually)" refer to?



I am using all of the options listed below depending on circumstances.
If you are clear about using your hd to store an installer iso, and you
are able to boot grub2, there are several choices:

1. use grub commandline (pressing c during grub menu) and enter all the
commands by hand. (possible to ask grub questions interactively,
autocomplete filemanes, aso, but needs some familiarity with its language)

2. compose the stanza manually (using the internet and your own knowing)
and introduce it temporarily into /boot/grub/grub.cfg (where it will be
overwritten by update-grub some day)

3 permanently teach grub to add the stanza, which may even be
dynamically coded, if you want, by creating/modifying a file in
/etc/grub.d (but who wants to install several times on the same
machine?). I did permanantly add a live iso for emergency booting a
whacky system.

manually refers to 1.
was that clear enough for you?
i would expect to use 32bit installer and image files, but it is
necessary to be certain about the partitioning format (gpt or mbr) in
order to give grub the correct hints.




I've never had occasion to use Grub's command line. Good time to learn.
The existing install is so old it has Grub 1.??? rather than 2.??? .
Should that make any practical difference to manual install?

Not sure about gpt vs mbr. I have whatever Gparted defaults to when 
creating new partitions. I have no longer required partitions available.


Wont have time available until tomorrow or Saturday to do the install.

Thanks.

Planned path - was [Re: Installing current i386 Debian on OLD syst W/O CD/DVD drive]


On 08/01/2024 08:38 AM, Andy Smith wrote:

Hi,

On Thu, Aug 01, 2024 at 03:35:38PM +0200, DdB wrote:

i recommend installing from netinstall iso image using the
hd-media files to boot the installer using grub stanza (or
manually). Description in the manual is a bit short, but you can
ask me, if you need.


Oh yes, great suggestion! I should have thought of just downloading
an installer and booting it from existing install's grub.



I was hoping I could somehow tell grub to run an installer's ISO image.
I think the posted links will lead me adequately.

In the phrase "to boot the installer using grub stanza (or manually)",
just what does "(or manually)" refer to?

Thanks.

CLARIFICATIONS Re: Installing current i386 Debian on OLD syst W/O CD/DVD drive


On 08/01/2024 07:41 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
I have an elderly Sony laptop and a more ancient desktop with unknown 
motherboard happily running i386 Debian 9.0. As far as I can tell the 
BIOS of neither machine supports booting from a flash drive. Neither has 
functional CD/DVD drive. Both hard drives have copious free space.


Both machines have 32bit only hardware.



Both machines have internet access.
Though this machine is 64Bit capable


I.E. has a 64bit processor capable of running 32bit software.
It currently runs i386 Debian 9.13 .


and bootable from flash, it does not have adequate free space for an additional 
OS.


No sane person messes with OPERABLE system unless ABSOLUTELY *REQUIRED*!
I date from era of 12AX7s and routine IO devices were 026s and KSR35s.
Have been using Debian since Squeeze.
At 80+ I've learned to ask first when in doubt ;}!



Are there documented install instructions covering machines described in 
first paragraph?


TIA

Installing current i386 Debian on OLD syst W/O CD/DVD drive