subject:"A few general questions from a Debian newbie"

Am 2005-11-13 03:43:00, schrieb Oliver Lupton:

  Firefox is currently @ 1.07 and every point release since 1.0 has been
  due to security issues.
 
 Following the link you gave, I get to a file such as
 mozilla-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge5_i386.deb, I'm not entirely sure what the
 '-2' part means, but the 'sarge5' refers to this being the fifth
 security update the the 1.0.4[-2] package.
 
 At least, that's how I understand it :)

...and it is 1.07 but renamed!

Greetings
Michelle

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Am 2005-11-12 21:59:22, schrieb Marc Wilson:

 Myself, I don't use Crapfox, and therefore don't pay any attention to its
 Debian versioning, but if normal Debian practices are being followed,
 security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested
 versions being packaged for stable.
 
 This means that the v1.04 available from s.d.o would have v1.07's security
 fixes in it.  I'm sure you can review the package changelog to find out for
 sure.

No, 1.04 has NONE 1.07 security fixes in it.

1.04 from Sarge IS the version 1.07 from Etch.

Backporting from security fixes in Mozilla or Firefox are to heavy
so they have considered to use 1.07 and rename it for Sarge.

Please consider rteading the changelog.

Greetings
Michelle

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Am 2005-11-14 23:27:29, schrieb Antony Gelberg:
 Michael Marsh wrote:
 
  In short, the patched version of Firefox in sarge is *not* 1.0.7, so
  calling it 1.0.7 would be a mistake.
  
 
 Um, as I've said elsewhere in this thread, it is a newer upstream
 version than 1.0.4.  Not sure exactly what version it is, though.

You mean:

  __( 'stdin' )_
 /
| Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:06:47 +0200 (CEST)
| To: debian-security-announce@lists.debian.org (Debian Security Announcements)
| From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Martin Schulze)
| Subject: [SECURITY] [DSA 779-2] New Mozilla Firefox packages fix several 
vulnerabilities
| 
| --
| Debian Security Advisory DSA 779-2 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| http://www.debian.org/security/ Martin Schulze
| September 1st, 2005 http://www.debian.org/security/faq
| --
| 
| Package: mozilla-firefox
| Vulnerability  : several
| Problem-Type   : remote
| Debian-specific: no
| CVE ID : CAN-2005-2260 CAN-2005-2261 CAN-2005-2262 CAN-2005-2263
|  CAN-2005-2264 CAN-2005-2265 CAN-2005-2266 CAN-2005-2267
|  CAN-2005-2268 CAN-2005-2269 CAN-2005-2270
| BugTraq ID : 14242
| Debian Bug : 318061
| 
| We experienced that the update for Mozilla Firefox from DSA 779-1
| unfortunately was a regression in several cases.  Since the usual
^^^
| praxis of backporting apparently does not work, this update is
  ^^
| basically version 1.0.6 with the version number rolled back, and hence
  ^^
| still named 1.0.4-*.  For completeness below is the original advisory
  ^^^

snip

| Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 alias sarge
| - 
| 
|   Source archives:
| 
| http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz
| illa-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge3.dsc
|   Size/MD5 checksum: 1001 e9e343d5899bc10b64650464839db1dc
| http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz
| illa-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge3.diff.gz
|   Size/MD5 checksum:   323682 3e07c7d42de155ed01210386bc2f06f7
| http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz
| illa-firefox_1.0.4.orig.tar.gz
|   Size/MD5 checksum: 40212297 8e4ba81ad02c7986446d4e54e978409d
| 
|   Intel IA-32 architecture:
| 
| http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz
| illa-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge3_i386.deb
|   Size/MD5 checksum:  8889628 c7730b4e3df2f6a0bb12186a52884a9e
| http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz
| illa-firefox-dom-inspector_1.0.4-2sarge3_i386.deb
|   Size/MD5 checksum:   156844 806fd550f9a5283e4fab73443c73fbcd
| http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz
| illa-firefox-gnome-support_1.0.4-2sarge3_i386.deb
|   Size/MD5 checksum:54096 9eb9d71896406a619bd186bfe10ed0f2
| 
 \__


Greetings
Michelle

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Am 2005-11-13 11:32:16, schrieb Antony Gelberg:
 Bruce Hohl wrote:
  OpenOffice 2.0 is an important piece of software.
 
 snip
 
 Why?

Because you will need biger CPU's and more memory in your
computer which will make the manufacturer richer.  :-P

Greetings
Michelle

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Am 2005-11-12 17:05:54, schrieb Antony Gelberg:
 Antony Gelberg wrote:

  http://www.debian.doc/releases might help you understand how releases
  work in Debian.
 
 Oops. s/doc/com

| s/com/org/


Greetings
Michelle

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 13:46 +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote:
 Am 2005-11-12 21:59:22, schrieb Marc Wilson:
 
  Myself, I don't use Crapfox, and therefore don't pay any attention to its
  Debian versioning, but if normal Debian practices are being followed,
  security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested
  versions being packaged for stable.
  
  This means that the v1.04 available from s.d.o would have v1.07's security
  fixes in it.  I'm sure you can review the package changelog to find out for
  sure.
 
 No, 1.04 has NONE 1.07 security fixes in it.
 
 1.04 from Sarge IS the version 1.07 from Etch.
 
 Backporting from security fixes in Mozilla or Firefox are to heavy
 so they have considered to use 1.07 and rename it for Sarge.

I thought that in those cases they actually bumped up the version
number.

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 22:43 -0500, Carl Fink wrote:
 On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 01:26:50AM +, Antony Gelberg wrote:
 
  I think users need to get back to learning a little.  I was asked by a
  customer yesterday why Thunderbird doesn't capitalise the H in Hello
  like Outlook (Word) does.  I was too speechless to suggest just typing
  properly.
  
  In fact most tools that I have seen that are designed to be operated
  with no knowledge of the subject, produce inferior output.
 
 Even granting this arguendo, it lets a non-techie somewhere produce
 SOMETHING, in an hour, that does what he needs, without hiring you or me to
 do it for him.
 
 So it's inefficent.  So what?

Because in 6 months or a year, when the size of that quick-and-dirty
DB grows bigger than expected, and becomes vital to the organization
(or subset thereof), they suddenly realize that it doesn't scale
and/or is full of bad data.

Don't ask me to figure out HR regulations, and I won't ask you to
design databases.

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 22:23 +, Antony Gelberg wrote:
 Ron Johnson wrote:
  On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 11:11 +, Antony Gelberg wrote:
  
 Steve Lamb wrote:
 
 Andy Streich wrote:
[snip]
 No, it's not, and that's not what I said.  I was pointing out that
 encouraging newbies to use testing or unstable, is possibly not the best
 idea ever.

As long as they go in with a reasonable amount of disclosure as
to the differences between stable  testing/unstable, I don't see
why not.

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by men of zeal, well-meaning, but without understanding.
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-17 Thread Carl Fink

On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 09:40:32AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
 On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 22:43 -0500, Carl Fink wrote:

  So it's inefficent.  So what?
 
 Because in 6 months or a year, when the size of that quick-and-dirty
 DB grows bigger than expected, and becomes vital to the organization
 (or subset thereof), they suddenly realize that it doesn't scale
 and/or is full of bad data.

And you know that this will happen in every case, of course.

And this hurts the developer that gets hired to produce the new database
how?
 
 Don't ask me to figure out HR regulations, and I won't ask you to
 design databases.

Don't assume it's impossible to do both well, and I won't laugh in your
face.
-- 
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If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 22:41 -0500, Carl Fink wrote:
 On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 09:40:32AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
  On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 22:43 -0500, Carl Fink wrote:
 
   So it's inefficent.  So what?
  
  Because in 6 months or a year, when the size of that quick-and-dirty
  DB grows bigger than expected, and becomes vital to the organization
  (or subset thereof), they suddenly realize that it doesn't scale
  and/or is full of bad data.
 
 And you know that this will happen in every case, of course.
 
 And this hurts the developer that gets hired to produce the new database
 how?

That's if a developer is hired to fix it.  They might just decide
to limp along with it like it is.

Your original point, though, was inefficiency, and hiring a DB
developer to fix a borken app is definitely less efficient than
doing it right in the 1st place.
 
  Don't ask me to figure out HR regulations, and I won't ask you to
  design databases.
 
 Don't assume it's impossible to do both well, and I won't laugh in your
 face.

Impossible is a 'big' word.  I'm sure there are some people who
are expert in both HR regulations and DB design and implementation.

Darn few, though, and probably work for HR outsourcing firms.

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-16 Thread loos

\
 

 9- # chmod 777 /opt/openoffice.org2.0/program/soffice
  This step seemed but soffice was installed with mode 000
  and therefore could not be executed (started).


Bad idea, there are a lot of steps between 000 and 777
Don't ever use 777
It is a program you don't need write permission: 755 seems more
apropriate

Michel. 
 

 


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-16 Thread Carl Fink

On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 10:33:37PM +, Antony Gelberg wrote:

[OpenOffice.org's new database-front-end capabilities]

 I'd still like to know what, in business terms if you like, you can do
 with this, that you cannot do with e.g. LAMP.

It's a weird question.  There's nothing there you can't do with dBASE III,
either, or COBOL on an IBM System/370.

What the Access-like features of OOo 2 let one do is create and manipulate
and use databases WITHOUT SPENDING A LOT OF TIME LEARNING HOW.
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-16 Thread Steve Lamb

Carl Fink wrote:
 What the Access-like features of OOo 2 let one do is create and manipulate
 and use databases WITHOUT SPENDING A LOT OF TIME LEARNING HOW.

Ah... you mean inefficiently and incorrectly.  Got it.

-- 
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   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-16 Thread Carl Fink

On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 04:52:55PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:
 Carl Fink wrote:
  What the Access-like features of OOo 2 let one do is create and manipulate
  and use databases WITHOUT SPENDING A LOT OF TIME LEARNING HOW.
 
 Ah... you mean inefficiently and incorrectly.  Got it.

Ah, you're a posturing tech snob.  Got it.

Heck, I've only done actual work with dBASE III and on S/370s. 
-- 
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-16 Thread Bruce Hohl

--- loos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  9- # chmod 777
  /opt/openoffice.org2.0/program/soffice
  This step seemed but soffice was installed
  with mode 000 and therefore could not be executed
  (started).
 
 
 Bad idea, there are a lot of steps between 000 and
777
 Don't ever use 777
 It is a program you don't need write permission: 755
 seems more
 apropriate
 
 Michel. 
  
 
Thanks, So noted, and changed to 755.



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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-16 Thread Carl Fink

On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 01:26:50AM +, Antony Gelberg wrote:

 I think users need to get back to learning a little.  I was asked by a
 customer yesterday why Thunderbird doesn't capitalise the H in Hello
 like Outlook (Word) does.  I was too speechless to suggest just typing
 properly.
 
 In fact most tools that I have seen that are designed to be operated
 with no knowledge of the subject, produce inferior output.

Even granting this arguendo, it lets a non-techie somewhere produce
SOMETHING, in an hour, that does what he needs, without hiring you or me to
do it for him.

So it's inefficent.  So what?
-- 
Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-15 Thread Ron Johnson

On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 11:11 +, Antony Gelberg wrote:
 Steve Lamb wrote:
  Andy Streich wrote:
  
 latest and greatest of everything.  What I did find surprising after 
 reading 
 this list for a while was that stable meant not only really stable but also 
 really slow release cycle.  Okay, that's the price you pay for really 
 stable.  
  
  
  Why be so hung up on release cycles?  I mean, really.  You know how much
  attention I've paid to Debian's release cycles since installing?  Well, 
  other
  than the libc5 - glibc2 conversion, none.  Again, it has to be stressed,
  there is nothing that prevents the user from upgrading any package they 
  choose
  to a later version.  None.  At all.  Stable just means it won't be updated 
  out
  from under you.  That's *it*.  You want newer, go get newer!  Have fun!
  Debian won't be upset, I promise.
 
 It's not that simple.  A lot of newbies dive into testing or unstable
 because they have to have the newest stuff, then they don't know what
 to do when their system breaks.

So it's Debian's *fault* that newbies whine when they make no effort
to read the Debian web site?

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-15 Thread loos

Em Ter, 2005-11-15 às 16:44 -0600, Ron Johnson escreveu:
 On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 11:11 +, Antony Gelberg wrote:
  Steve Lamb wrote:
   Andy Streich wrote:
   
  latest and greatest of everything.  What I did find surprising after 
  reading 
  this list for a while was that stable meant not only really stable but 
  also 
  really slow release cycle.  Okay, that's the price you pay for really 
  stable.  
   
   
   Why be so hung up on release cycles?  I mean, really.  You know how 
   much
   attention I've paid to Debian's release cycles since installing?  Well, 
   other
   than the libc5 - glibc2 conversion, none.  Again, it has to be stressed,
   there is nothing that prevents the user from upgrading any package they 
   choose
   to a later version.  None.  At all.  Stable just means it won't be 
   updated out
   from under you.  That's *it*.  You want newer, go get newer!  Have fun!
   Debian won't be upset, I promise.
  
  It's not that simple.  A lot of newbies dive into testing or unstable
  because they have to have the newest stuff, then they don't know what
  to do when their system breaks.
 
 So it's Debian's *fault* that newbies whine when they make no effort
 to read the Debian web site?

newbie - testing is totally antinomic. It is impossible for a newbie to
use testing reasonabl and provide the expected feedback.

newbie - unstable, that's normal. If you like it that way. And they will
learn a lot.

For who is stable: Experts, sysadmins etc. That a fantastic base where
you can build anything fot it and be sure you can put in production
anywhere because the base is the same. Stable is our Solaris, in their
sense Stable is the most advanced distribution

Michel.

Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-15 Thread Bruce Hohl

It's not that simple. A lot of newbies dive into testing or unstable because they "have" to have the newest stuff, then they don't know what to do when their system breaks. So it's Debian's *fault* that newbies whine when they make no effort to read the Debian web site? Gentlemen: My original question has morphed into something other than I intended. Firstly, I did not whine about Debian. I simply stated IMHO OpenOffice 2 is an important piece of software, important enough to get into Testing ASAP and provide debs for Sarge. No one has to agree with my *opinion*. It is simply feedback from someone who has used Linux for three years (I'm only a newbie to Debian). Secondly, I did in fact make an effort to determine if I could get OpenOffice onto Sarge easily (i.e. from a repository or deb packages - these options do not yet appear available). More and
more I want Linux to be easy to use, stable (as in Sarge), open, and have good software - this led me to Debian. I "need" OO Base because I need an MS Access like application for Linux, and I need it now! Access has been around for like 10+ years. The following are my install notes for OO2 on Debian Sarge. More formal instruction can be found at: http://download.openoffice.org/2.0.0/instructions.html. I have not yet used 002 enough to state that all works well and that it is stable on Sarge :). OpenOffice 2.0 Install (my notes) = 0- Uninstall your current OpenOffice version. If you keep it see the README files. 1- Make sure Jave 1.4+ is installed: [EMAIL PROTECTED] dpkg -l jre* ii j2re1.4 1.4.2.01-1 Blackdown Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment OK.
2- If not download and install (or from apt-get): http://www.java.com/en/download/linux_manual.jsp 3- Download OpenOffice 2.0 from www.openoffice.org File is OOo_2.0.0_LinuxIntel_install.tar.gz 4- # mv OOo_2.0.0_LinuxIntel_install.tar.gz /opt 5- # tar -xvzf OOo_2.0.0_LinuxIntel_install.tar.gz 6- # alien --to-deb *.rpm # rm *.rpm (no longer needed) 7- # cp desktop-integration/*.deb ./ 8- # dpkg -i *.deb 9- # chmod 777 /opt/openoffice.org2.0/program/soffice This step seemed but soffice was installed with mode 000 and therefore could not be executed (started).
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-15 Thread Ron Johnson

On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 18:25 -0800, Bruce Hohl wrote:
   It's not that simple. A lot of newbies dive into testing or
 unstable
   because they have to have the newest stuff, then they don't know
   what to do when their system breaks.
 
  So it's Debian's *fault* that newbies whine when they make no effort
  to read the Debian web site?
 
 Gentlemen:
 My original question has morphed into something other than I intended.
 Firstly, I did not whine about Debian.  I simply stated

It's the generic newbie... :)

  IMHO OpenOffice 2 is an important piece of software, important enough
 to get into Testing ASAP and provide debs for Sarge.  No one has to
 agree with my *opinion*.  It is simply feedback from someone who has
 used Linux for three years (I'm only a newbie to Debian).
 
 Secondly, I did in fact make an effort to determine if I could get
 OpenOffice onto Sarge easily (i.e. from a repository or deb packages -
 these options do not yet appear available).  More and more I want
 Linux to be easy to use, stable (as in Sarge), open, and have good
 software - this led me to Debian.  I need OO Base because I need an
 MS Access like application for Linux, and I need it now!  Access has
 been around for like 10+ years.

Either upgrade to Sid or look for it at apt-get.org :
http://www1.apt-get.org/search.php?query=openoffice.orgsubmit=arch%5B%
5D=i386arch%5B%5D=all and search for 2.0.0.  Maybe it's
compiled for Etch.

And search thru the debian-openoffice mailing list archives to
see what's preventing it from moving into Etch.

I *guarantee* you that there is a very good reason why it hasn't
yet been moved to Etch.

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PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-14 Thread loos

Em Dom, 2005-11-13 às 17:19 -0500, Carl Fink escreveu:
 On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 11:16:27AM -0700, Paul Scott wrote:
  Carl Fink wrote:
 
  Why use a distro if you're going to have to manually install things anyway?
   
  That might make sense if we were just installing an OS but everyone 
  certainly has different needs in applications.
 
 That's why I said distro (short for distribution) and not operating
 system.
 
 A selling point[1] of Debian has been how many applications are available
 for it.  That stops working when the most-desired applications aren't
 included.
 
 
They are included in the unstable distribution (whose programs are
stable).
The latest programs, by the very definition of stable, can not be
included in stable. If you change the programs included in a stable it
isn't stable anymore.
You run stable in order to have a perfectly stable bases on which you
can build your computer. This way when something goes wrong it is very
easy to find the responsible.

Michel.

Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-14 Thread Carl Fink

On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 01:39:07PM -0200, loos wrote:
 Em Dom, 2005-11-13 ?s 17:19 -0500, Carl Fink escreveu:
  On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 11:16:27AM -0700, Paul Scott wrote:
   Carl Fink wrote:
  
   Why use a distro if you're going to have to manually install things 
   anyway?

   That might make sense if we were just installing an OS but everyone 
   certainly has different needs in applications.
  
  That's why I said distro (short for distribution) and not operating
  system.
  
  A selling point[1] of Debian has been how many applications are available
  for it.  That stops working when the most-desired applications aren't
  included.
  
  
 They are included in the unstable distribution (whose programs are
 stable).

Absolutely true and completely irrelevant to my point.
-- 
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-14 Thread s. keeling

Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  Kent West wrote:
 
  No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and
  the like.
 
  And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the
  desktop user.  It's also why I'll never run stable

It is not a flaw.  It's a designed in feature.  _The Point_ of Debian
is to produce _stable_.  All else is mere means to that end (though
perhaps useful in other ways; you _may_ run sid IFF you're willing to
accept _non-stable_ behaviour).

Stability is what Debian was trying to produce when Murdock  friends
began.  That's still a cornerstone value.  Considering all the
downstream distributions based on Debian, that strategy is working well.


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-14 Thread Andy Streich

On Monday 14 November 2005 09:21 am, s. keeling wrote:
 Stability is what Debian was trying to produce when Murdock  friends
 began.  That's still a cornerstone value.  Considering all the
 downstream distributions based on Debian, that strategy is working well.

I agree.  But as a relative newbie myself I'd like to better understand the 
rationale.

A newbie looking at the plethora of distros is one confused and mystified 
individual.  I chose Debian because of its open development model and 
reputation for stability (and lacked the time to investigate the 100+ so 
alternatives).  The net-install was a quite a pleasure -- living without 
sound until I bought new hardware was a small price to pay.  My use is 
primarily Java and web development and document writing.  I don't need the 
latest and greatest of everything.  What I did find surprising after reading 
this list for a while was that stable meant not only really stable but also 
really slow release cycle.  Okay, that's the price you pay for really 
stable.  

What seems odd to me is that a stable release is not just the OS and utilities 
but also all the applications that run on top of them (15,000+ packages total 
-- that certainly explains the release cycle time).  Is the rationale that 
this is the best way to do testing and configuration management?  Is it just 
a consequence of the way Debian has grown up?  Or something else entirely?

As a newbie I expected there to be a set of OS/utility packages that were 
released together (say, for example, like Sun does with Solaris) and various 
sets of application software that had independent release cycles.  The Debian 
model seems to be that all FLOSS software constitutes a Debian release and 
once that release happens you can pick and choose what you want.  Why is that 
a good thing?

Any clarification on the above will be appreciated.  I'm not throwing stones 
here, just trying to figure out what the motivation is so I can better 
understand the Debian way.

Andy

Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-14 Thread Roberto C. Sanchez

On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 05:50:18PM -0800, Andy Streich wrote:
 On Monday 14 November 2005 09:21 am, s. keeling wrote:
  Stability is what Debian was trying to produce when Murdock  friends
  began.  That's still a cornerstone value.  Considering all the
  downstream distributions based on Debian, that strategy is working well.
 
 I agree.  But as a relative newbie myself I'd like to better understand the 
 rationale.
 
Better to try and understand it than to blindly criticize.

 A newbie looking at the plethora of distros is one confused and mystified 
 individual.  I chose Debian because of its open development model and 
 reputation for stability (and lacked the time to investigate the 100+ so 
 alternatives).  The net-install was a quite a pleasure -- living without 
 sound until I bought new hardware was a small price to pay.  My use is 
 primarily Java and web development and document writing.  I don't need the 
 latest and greatest of everything.  What I did find surprising after reading 
 this list for a while was that stable meant not only really stable but also 
 really slow release cycle.  Okay, that's the price you pay for really 
 stable.  
 
In my case, I am willing to live with some out of date applications (I
back port the apps that are critical to my work) so that I can be
certain that my machine will always be functional, barring a hardware
failure.

 What seems odd to me is that a stable release is not just the OS and 
 utilities 
 but also all the applications that run on top of them (15,000+ packages total 
 -- that certainly explains the release cycle time).  Is the rationale that 
 this is the best way to do testing and configuration management?  Is it just 
 a consequence of the way Debian has grown up?  Or something else entirely?
 
The rationale is that the admin should expect that a package installed
from the official Debian repository will *not* change behavior between
releases.  That is why security fixes are backported and not simply
brought an as updated version of the package.  There are certain
packages, like those of the Mozilla family that violate this since it is
not possible.  Upstream, Mozilla is developed in such a way so to make
backported security fixes nearly impossible and then they actively
discourage such practices, which has been the cause of some tension
between the Debian and Mozilla projects.

The reason it is done this is so that I can depend on a known set of
functionality that will not change for the life of the release.  I can
write a program and be certain that it will work even if security
updates are made, since those security updates will not include a
version bump of a core library that causes the app to break.

Since not all programs in the world are packaged for Debian, simply
looking at the applications in the official repository does not tell the
whole story.

 As a newbie I expected there to be a set of OS/utility packages that were 
 released together (say, for example, like Sun does with Solaris) and various 
 sets of application software that had independent release cycles.  The Debian 
 model seems to be that all FLOSS software constitutes a Debian release and 
 once that release happens you can pick and choose what you want.  Why is that 
 a good thing?
 
Unfortunately, the Debian project does not have enough people or
infrastructure to make that happen.  Please feel free to fund such an
effort :-)

 Any clarification on the above will be appreciated.  I'm not throwing stones 
 here, just trying to figure out what the motivation is so I can better 
 understand the Debian way.
 
 Andy
 
HTH,

-Roberto

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http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-14 Thread Steve Lamb

Andy Streich wrote:
 latest and greatest of everything.  What I did find surprising after reading 
 this list for a while was that stable meant not only really stable but also 
 really slow release cycle.  Okay, that's the price you pay for really 
 stable.  

Why be so hung up on release cycles?  I mean, really.  You know how much
attention I've paid to Debian's release cycles since installing?  Well, other
than the libc5 - glibc2 conversion, none.  Again, it has to be stressed,
there is nothing that prevents the user from upgrading any package they choose
to a later version.  None.  At all.  Stable just means it won't be updated out
from under you.  That's *it*.  You want newer, go get newer!  Have fun!
Debian won't be upset, I promise.

 As a newbie I expected there to be a set of OS/utility packages that were 
 released together (say, for example, like Sun does with Solaris) and various 
 sets of application software that had independent release cycles.  The Debian 
 model seems to be that all FLOSS software constitutes a Debian release and 
 once that release happens you can pick and choose what you want.  Why is that 
 a good thing?

Application behaviors change between releases.  Hell, applications
configuration often changes and breaks between releases.  Also define
applications versus OS.  MySQL, which is it?  I mean it is a dependancy for
many other tools but not something itself that would be considered part of the
OS.  Exim?  Postfix?  X?

As I said, ya want newer, go for it!  Stable makes that possible because
it is just that, stable.  People can compile for stable knowing what's going
to be there.  It isn't a moving target.

-- 
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Marc Wilson wrote:
 On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 08:33:00PM -0700, Scott wrote:
 
The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04!
http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/

 if normal Debian practices are being followed,
 security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested
 versions being packaged for stable.
 This means that the v1.04 available from s.d.o would have v1.07's security
 fixes in it.  I'm sure you can review the package changelog to find out for
 sure.

Now that you mention it, Ubuntu used to do this the same way till they
came to their senses (and after a bajillion user complaints).

-- 
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Robert Brockway wrote:
 On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Scott wrote:
 
 I was absolutely blown away by this:

 The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04!
 http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/

 I'm rather surprised to see this.  Why?

 Firefox is currently @ 1.07 and every point release since 1.0 has been
 due to security issues.
 
 
 It's normal for the Debian security team to backport changes into the
 existing code base in Debian.  Thus I expect the Firefox 1.04 to be the
 vanilla source 1.04 plus backported security fixes.  This is a _good_
 thing as it means less changes on an update.  This is one of the
 strengths of the Debian approach.

Perhaps, but it's also confusing to anyone coming to Debian from another
Linux distro.   Let's just hope they *properly* update the user agent
string..

I say, that approach is fine, but why not show the right freakin version
number?  Even if they didn't have to backport, patching would be simpler
than starting over from scratch anyway.Heck the next version of
Firefox will do it that way anyway (assuming one is using a version
downloaded from Mozilla, that is).

-- 
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www.angrykeyboarder.com
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Steve Lamb wrote:
 Scott wrote:
 
And then OpenOffice.0rg 3, Firefox 2.0, GIMP 3.0, GNOME 2.16, and KDE
4.0 will be released within the following month discouraging many from
sticking with Debian stable
 
 
 You still misunderstand.  The point is there is no one standing there with
 a gun to their head forcing said people to stick to stable.  *NO ONE*. 

Considering I'm *not* running stable, I understand perfectly.  Where
have I implied I was?

 The  point of stable is that the *version numbers are.  STABLE!*  If they 
 want
 all the goodies they are perfectly capable of moving up the tree to testing or
 unstable.

What Debian (or SOMEBODY please) needs is a new stable release at
least once a year with security updates, bugfixes AND *major* software
package (i.e 1.5 to 2.0, 3.6-4.0) updates to that release as the next
release is being simultaneously developed.

Wait, there is one I can think of, but unfortunately they utilize this
software called YUM and hand have a gazillion packages but Debian has a
gazillion and a half.

Don't get me wrong, I'm here because I felt etch/sid would be what I
wanted.  They are, except unlike the previously mentioned distro, I'm
much more on my own when it comes to security updates.   On the other
hand,  I've yet to be affected by Joe Blow, Hobart, Tasmania,
discovered a buffer overrun if you disable the flex capacitor in insert
name of program I never use, rarely use or never heard of on rainy
Thursdays :-)

So I get my latest and greatest and takes my chances.  I'm just saying
it doesn't have to be that way.

And that's pretty much all I have to say on the subject. I'm sorry I
brought it up.

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www.angrykeyboarder.com
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Marc Wilson wrote:
 On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 04:55:36PM -0700, Scott wrote:
 
Marc Wilson wrote:

OpenOffice.org 2 will never be added to Debian stable.  Instead, the next
time there is a stable release (Etch), OpenOffice.org 2 will be included.

And then OpenOffice.0rg 3, Firefox 2.0, GIMP 3.0, GNOME 2.16, and KDE
4.0 will be released within the following month discouraging many from
sticking with Debian stable
 
 
 Which is no one's problem but their own. 

Which is all that matters (or doesn't) to them.

Despite what the average cluebie
 believes, software does not come with a magic expiration date.

No agrument there, often times I've stuck with a program because I
didn't like what the new and improved version brought me.

 They use something other than stable, they deserve what happens to them.
 That's why they're not releases.  'Nuff said.

Or they find a distro that can produce a stable version in less than
three years.  There are a number of them. It's really not at all unsual...

Oh, now I'm done.

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www.angrykeyboarder.com
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Version numbers and backporting [was Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie]

2005-11-13 Thread Robert Brockway


[Discussion on Debian version numbers and backporting]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005, Scott wrote:


Perhaps, but it's also confusing to anyone coming to Debian from another
Linux distro.   Let's just hope they *properly* update the user agent
string..

I say, that approach is fine, but why not show the right freakin version


Because the version is 1.04 not 1.07.  Changing the version number to 1.07 
when an app is really 1.04 with backported fixes would be bad bad.  The 
version number can define features, defaults, bugs and behaviour.


Cheers,

Rob

--
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Senior Technical Consultant Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Mark Crean


Scott wrote:


[snip]

What Debian (or SOMEBODY please) needs is a new stable release at
least once a year with security updates, bugfixes AND *major* software
package (i.e 1.5 to 2.0, 3.6-4.0) updates to that release as the next
release is being simultaneously developed.

Wait, there is one I can think of, but unfortunately they utilize this
software called YUM and hand have a gazillion packages but Debian has a
gazillion and a half.

Don't get me wrong, I'm here because I felt etch/sid would be what I
wanted.  They are, except unlike the previously mentioned distro, I'm
much more on my own when it comes to security updates.   On the other
hand,  I've yet to be affected by Joe Blow, Hobart, Tasmania,
discovered a buffer overrun if you disable the flex capacitor in insert
name of program I never use, rarely use or never heard of on rainy
Thursdays :-)

So I get my latest and greatest and takes my chances.  I'm just saying
it doesn't have to be that way.

And that's pretty much all I have to say on the subject. I'm sorry I
brought it up.

 

Don't be sorry. Change doesn't happen if everyone stays silent. 
Everything changes, and it's possible that the Linux scene has changed 
over the past few years too. There was a time when platform stability 
was a much rarer beast and Debian Stable meant something head and 
shoulders above the rest. These days stability is becoming much more of 
a given, as other distros have increasingly got their act together, and 
the notion of Debian Stable is perhaps not as valuable and exclusive as 
it once was.


I also run SuSE and have done for a few years now. It is normally every 
bit as stable as Debian Stable and security updates are often faster as 
well. The software on SuSE is generally a lot more recent. Of course, 
you can point out that SuSE lacks apt and so it is wipe and install 
again when a new version appears (although SUSE releases have been 
supported for two years after launch, and in some cases it is possible 
simply to upgrade). However, this is a different issue from stability 
per se.


I suspect that Debian probably will need to change its policy on 
releases and it's software tree generally if it wishes to remain 
relevent in the coming years. In the meantime, having tried all three 
releases, I have settled on Sid. It's for desktop use, and the Linux 
desktop is still rapidly improving in all sorts of ways. Cutting myself 
off from that by using Stable is not an attractive option for me. Some 
of the comments on here about folks deserving everything they get and 
so forth if they do not run Stable are highly unattractive and reinforce 
negative attitudes about Debian. Since I'd like to make Debian my OS 
from here on in, this pains me.


:)

Fish


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Jon Dowland

On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 04:50:50PM -0700, Scott wrote:
 Kent West wrote:
  No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes
  and the like.
 
 And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the
 desktop user.  It's also why I'll never run stable

I think quite a lot of people are very happy to use stable on desktop
systems. Most people who aren't are not typical desktop users
themselves, but geeks or enthusiasts who want new-fangled stuff. For
day-to-day office tasks and the like, a rock-solid base, where the
layout of buttons etc. doesn't change every other week, is infinitely
more desirable.

As the notion of desktop user moves further and further away from the
legacy of windows, and the levels of stability that brought with it, 

 At least Ubuntu promises you won't have to wait more than 6 months for
 the next stable release.

Indeed, although I'll reserve judgement on their definition of stable
until its been around a bit longer.

 And there's Fedora Core, who's latest release has been out for several
 months.  They added OpenOffice.org 2, to their  updates repository
 shortly after it's release.

Fedora Core is nowhere near comparable in terms of stability to debian,
so their legacy of releases and software versions is not worth
attempting to live up to.

-- 
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http://jon.dowland.name/


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Jon Dowland

On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 02:42:25AM -0700, Scott wrote:
 Robert Brockway wrote:
  It's normal for the Debian security team to backport changes into
  the existing code base in Debian.  Thus I expect the Firefox 1.04 to
  be the vanilla source 1.04 plus backported security fixes.  This is
  a _good_ thing as it means less changes on an update.  This is one
  of the strengths of the Debian approach.
 
 Perhaps, but it's also confusing to anyone coming to Debian from
 another Linux distro.   

I don't see why: the ship the version they state they do, and fix
security problems as they arise. Very logical to me. If people really
expect either security problems to sit unfixed, then I think they have
been set a pretty low standard by whatever other distro they've come
via.

 Let's just hope they *properly* update the user agent string..

I don't think the UA should be used to describe security patch levels.

-- 
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http://jon.dowland.name/


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[Fwd: Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie]

2005-11-13 Thread steef

 Original Message 
Subject:Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Resent-Date:Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:40:36 -0600 (CST)
Resent-From:debian-user@lists.debian.org
Date:   Sat, 12 Nov 2005 21:22:44 -0500
From:   Mark Grieveson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Debian List debian-user@lists.debian.org

OpenOffice 2.0 is an important piece of software...added 
OpenOffice.org 2, to their updates repository shortly after it's 
release...it likely will drive choice of distribution/version

I'm pretty tired of reading about OpenOffice 2.0.  I still prefer 
WordPerfect 6.1, to be honest, and it was released years ago.  What is 
it with Linux word processors that they can't have a grammar check?  
Heck, WordPerfect 6.1 was released ages ago with one.  But I digress.  
To my main point:  I'm a desktop user, not a programmer, and I had no 
problem installing the oh-so-special OpenOffice 2.0 on my 
Sarge-running computer.  So, my question is, what is all this fuss 
about?  Installing OpenOffice 2.0 on Sarge is a breeze.  Stop whining 
about nothing.

And now back to my first digression:  I realize that Abiword's latest 
has a grammar check (coincidentally, I also had no problem installing 
the latest Abiword on Sarge, which means anyone could install it, the 
newest of the new, on Sarge).  However, it fell far short of WordPerfect 
6.1's Grammatik (released just as mankind was picking up sticks and 
learning to beat the Monolith, I believe).  Likewise, Diction, a Unix 
tool, has been around forever; so, why do Linux word processors not have 
something that Windows word processors have had since mankind first 
realized the significance of having an opposable digit?

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..i agree completely . i too am fed up with the fuss about and around 
openoffice.2.0. is very aesy to install if 'you' know anything about dpkg, 
debian etc.
i used 10 years ago wp5.1. never found a better and  more democratic 
'tekstverwerker' after although openoffice 2.0 runs smooth.

steef

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journalist, publicist

groningen, netherlands

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Thomas Jollans

Scott wrote:

Kent West wrote:
  



3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable.
Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to
Debian Stable.  If so when?


  

No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and
the like.



And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the
desktop user.  It's also why I'll never run stable
  

I don't believe that the average desktop user requires the latest
software. Sarge is a perfectly functional and exceptionally stable
system an adequately simple user interface. However, I am not currently
using sarge, and this of course has its reasons. It is simply what I am
used to, which is GNOME = 2.10, especially with its automounting
features.  So, I am using ubuntu for the time being because I got fed up
with using sid for everything that worked on sid and resorting o stable
for the rest. ubuntu provides me with a reasonable amount of stability
and gnome's automounting feature which I have grown to love.


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Carl Fink

On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 01:09:10PM +, Antony Gelberg wrote:

 Version 1 has perfectly adequate support for linking to databases.  

Where you presumably mean barely usable support if you're already a
database expert?  At least that's what *I* have.

 In the time that you spent composing that post, you could have searched
 the list archives and learnt how to install it.  I doubt you could have
 created any impressive documents in that time.

Why use a distro if you're going to have to manually install things anyway?
-- 
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If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Carl Fink

BTW, I think Sarge is more than just usable for desktops right now.  What
I fear as a long-time Debian user is that it'll have plenty of time to
BECOME obsolete, because Etch won't be released until 2010 or something.  If
Etch goes frozen by June of next year, the stable-only policy makes perfect
sense.
-- 
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If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Antony Gelberg wrote:

 Help yourself out by reading the debian-security-announce list.  

That one I subbed to when I noticed it was there.

Also
 available on Usenet as linux.debian.announce.security (yes, the words
 are swapped which is confusing).  Also read follow-ups and other
 discussion on debian-security / linux.debian.security.

Thanks for that tip.
 
 I also trust that as you're running unstable, you are following
 debian-devel-announce / linux.debian.announce.devel.

I am now. ;-)

Thanks!

-- 
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www.angrykeyboarder.com
© 2005 angrykeyboarder  Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved

Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Antony Gelberg wrote:
 Scott wrote:
 
How about some more noise.

The full and correct URL please?

Is this perhaps what you meant?: http://www.debian.org/doc/
 
 
 http://www.debian.org/releases
 

Thanks!  I'd actually seen that before but had forgotten where. :-) It's
nice to review again.  I picked up more information this time.

-- 
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www.angrykeyboarder.com
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Michael Marsh

On 11/13/05, Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Robert Brockway wrote:
  It's normal for the Debian security team to backport changes into the
  existing code base in Debian.  Thus I expect the Firefox 1.04 to be the
  vanilla source 1.04 plus backported security fixes.  This is a _good_
  thing as it means less changes on an update.  This is one of the
  strengths of the Debian approach.

 Perhaps, but it's also confusing to anyone coming to Debian from another
 Linux distro.   Let's just hope they *properly* update the user agent
 string..

 I say, that approach is fine, but why not show the right freakin version
 number?  Even if they didn't have to backport, patching would be simpler
 than starting over from scratch anyway.Heck the next version of
 Firefox will do it that way anyway (assuming one is using a version
 downloaded from Mozilla, that is).

There's actually a very good reason.  If the version number is
1.0.4-[patchlevel], it's reasonable to assume that the extensions and
plugins API/ABI hasn't changed.  I don't recall there being a change
between 1.0.4 and 1.0.7, but there *might* have been.  Also, sarge is
getting the security patches, not necessarily all of the feature
patches.  Imagine the nightmare of trying to figure out via the
Mozilla forums why feature X doesn't work in your installation of
1.0.7 when what you really have is 1.0.4+backported security fixes
from .5, .6, and .7.

In short, the patched version of Firefox in sarge is *not* 1.0.7, so
calling it 1.0.7 would be a mistake.

--
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Paul Scott


Carl Fink wrote:


On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 01:09:10PM +, Antony Gelberg wrote:
 


In the time that you spent composing that post, you could have searched
the list archives and learnt how to install it.  I doubt you could have
created any impressive documents in that time.
   



Why use a distro if you're going to have to manually install things anyway?
 

That might make sense if we were just installing an OS but everyone 
certainly has different needs in applications.


Paul Scott



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Re: [Fwd: Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie]

2005-11-13 Thread Hugh Lawson

steef [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


 i used 10 years ago wp5.1. never found a better

Get dosemu working, find your old wp5.1 install floppies, and you can use
wp5.1 under Linux.  See:

http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/wpdos/linux.html

-- 
Hugh Lawson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Ron Johnson

On Sat, 2005-11-12 at 16:50 -0700, Scott wrote:
 Kent West wrote:
 
  
 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable.
 Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to
 Debian Stable.  If so when?
  
 
  
  No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and
  the like.
 
 And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the

You're missing the point of what stable means.

Because I want the latest and greatest, I also use Sid, but don't
complain about Stable not having the latest and greatest, because
I understand what Stable (in this context) means: unchanging set
of software, with only security patches added.

-- 
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PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Jon Dowland

On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 02:36:05AM -0700, Scott wrote:
 Marc Wilson wrote:
  if normal Debian practices are being followed, security fixes
 are backported to stable, rather than new and untested versions being
 packaged for stable.
 
 Now that you mention it, Ubuntu used to do this the same way till they
 came to their senses (and after a bajillion user complaints).

You are wrong there. Ubuntu sticks to their guns with versioning for
released distros as far as I am aware. Both debian and ubuntu have been
forced to ship newer firefoxes as security releases, because upstream's
culture is to bundle their security updates with new features in a
single release. It has proven too difficult for the existing security
teams to determine precicely which changes in a very large changeset are
related to the vulnerability, so their hand was forced.

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Bruce Hohl

--- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 01:09:10PM +, Antony
 Gelberg wrote:
 
  Version 1 has perfectly adequate support for
  linking to databases.  
 
 Where you presumably mean barely usable support if
 you're already a database expert?  At least that's
 what *I* have.
 
I intend to use OO Base with HSQL in place of MS
Access to *create* (not link) some single file
databases used for analytical analysis.  OO 2 appears
to implement this functionality in a clean and
reasonable manner (i.e. like MS Access).  This is an
important office software function.


  In the time that you spent composing that post,
  you could have searched the list archives and
  learnt how to install it.  I doubt you could have
  created any impressive documents in that time.
 
 Why use a distro if you're going to have to
 manually install things anyway?
  
Exactly!

Any who has used gnu+linux for a while understands the
potential danger of going outside one's distribution. 
(My download is in progress .. wish me luck!)

My original point:  OpenOffice 2.0 (while not perfect)
is an important piece of open source software.  IMHO
the Debian developers should get OO 2 into Testing
soon and create deb packages for Sarge.  (And if you
continue to doubt the importance of Office software
just consider what Office has done for Microsoft.)





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Re: [Fwd: Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie]

2005-11-13 Thread steef


Hugh Lawson wrote:


steef [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


 


i used 10 years ago wp5.1. never found a better
   



Get dosemu working, find your old wp5.1 install floppies, and you can use
wp5.1 under Linux.  See:

http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/wpdos/linux.html

 


thanx!

steef

--
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journalist, publicist

groningen, netherlands


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Robert Brockway


On Sun, 13 Nov 2005, Carl Fink wrote:

BTW, I think Sarge is more than just usable for desktops right now. 
What I fear as a long-time Debian user is that it'll have plenty of time 
to BECOME obsolete, because Etch won't be released until 2010 or 
something.  If Etch goes frozen by June of next year, the stable-only 
policy makes perfect sense.


I think you are spot on.  One of the reasons we love Debian is the 
rock solid stability.  The discussions leading up to the last freeze lead 
me to believe most users and developers want a release cycle faster than 
those in the past.  IMHO 12-18 months would be ideal.  I really think this 
is achievable without increasing the work load on the developers 
(something we can't ask).


Rob

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Carl Fink

On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 11:16:27AM -0700, Paul Scott wrote:
 Carl Fink wrote:

 Why use a distro if you're going to have to manually install things anyway?
  
 That might make sense if we were just installing an OS but everyone 
 certainly has different needs in applications.

That's why I said distro (short for distribution) and not operating
system.

A selling point[1] of Debian has been how many applications are available
for it.  That stops working when the most-desired applications aren't
included.



[1]For some value of selling that applies to free things.
-- 
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If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Steve Lamb

Scott wrote:
 Steve Lamb wrote:

Scott wrote:

And then OpenOffice.0rg 3, Firefox 2.0, GIMP 3.0, GNOME 2.16, and KDE
4.0 will be released within the following month discouraging many from
sticking with Debian stable

You still misunderstand.  The point is there is no one standing there with
a gun to their head forcing said people to stick to stable.  *NO ONE*. 

 Considering I'm *not* running stable, I understand perfectly.  Where
 have I implied I was?

Where did I imply you had said you were?  My response was to your general
statement that people would shy away from Debian stable.  I responded that
people don't have a gun to their head forcing them to remain on stable.
Never once were you mentioned.

 What Debian (or SOMEBODY please) needs is a new stable release at
 least once a year with security updates, bugfixes AND *major* software
 package (i.e 1.5 to 2.0, 3.6-4.0) updates to that release as the next
 release is being simultaneously developed.

Nope, stable is stable.  Stable let's you know there's a very solid base.
 It is up to the users to then upgrade packages as they so desire.  It's isn't
like there aren't 4 repositories that I can think of off the top of my head to
achieve just this.

 Wait, there is one I can think of, but unfortunately they utilize this
 software called YUM and hand have a gazillion packages but Debian has a
 gazillion and a half.

Funny, mine don't.

testing
unstable
apt-get.org (for backports)
volitile

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Steve Lamb

Jon Dowland wrote:
 I think quite a lot of people are very happy to use stable on desktop
 systems. Most people who aren't are not typical desktop users
 themselves, but geeks or enthusiasts who want new-fangled stuff. For
 day-to-day office tasks and the like, a rock-solid base, where the
 layout of buttons etc. doesn't change every other week, is infinitely
 more desirable.

Anecdotal evidence to suppoort that; my dad.  In the past several years
I've bounced around email clients.  Name it and chances are I've run it.
TBird, sylpheed-claws, KMail, mutt, Evolution, Squirrelmail, elmo, pine,
Pegasus, Lookout! and a slew of others I've forgotten.  Every few months I
poke and different email clients hoping to find something closer to my ideal.
 I'm always looking for better.

My dad, in that same time, has used one client.  PMMail.  He started on
PMMail/2 back when I was big into OS/2 and PMMail/2.  When OS/2, for all
intents and purposes died, he moved to PMMail98 on Windows 98.  He's since
upgraded to PMMail2000 which is just a minor bugfix and rebranding to a
company that bought it and promptly never supported it.  He's using an email
client who's core was written over a decade ago and is happy with it.  So much
so that as much as I try to get him to move over to TBird, the closest to
PMMail in functionality and interface, he won't budge.  Not even the promise
of built-in Bayesian spam protection can sway him.

In the end Stable should remain precisely because noone else is doing it
the Debian way.  To say it is a failure and insist it should do things
differently is to ignore that for certain people it is a success and it does
have benefits.

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-13 Thread Steve Lamb

Mark Crean wrote:
 I also run SuSE and have done for a few years now. It is normally every
 bit as stable as Debian Stable and security updates are often faster as
 well.

This of course feeds into the misconception of Stable.  It's like free
software where people had to constantly say Free as in open source, and free
as in free beer.  Debian stable is about stability in the programs don't
crash sense but it was named mainly for the programs don't *change* sense.
 So no, SUSE as you describe it is not every bit as stable as Debian Stable.
It changes, Debian Stable does not.

 Some
 of the comments on here about folks deserving everything they get and
 so forth if they do not run Stable are highly unattractive and reinforce
 negative attitudes about Debian. Since I'd like to make Debian my OS
 from here on in, this pains me.

It's not the negative, it's the truth.  It also cuts both ways.  People
who lament the fact that Stable doesn't have newer software get what they
deserve by riding Stable; older software that doesn't change.  If they want
changing software, they ride unstable and, again, get what they deserve.

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A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-12 Thread Bruce Hohl

I have been running Debian Stable on a PC and Debian
Testing on a PC for a few months.  All is well.  I
have a few questions:

1- Compared to Debian Stable, Debian Testing has many
more programs on the Gnome menu (many without icons). 
Will the next Stable release retain all these menu
items?  Or, will the next stable release retain a
smaller list of menu selections like the current
stable release?

2- Is there a tool that can be used to edit the Gnome
2.10 menu in Debian Testing?  If not where can I find
the  underlying files?  I want to hide or remove most
of the KDE applications.

3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable.
 Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to
Debian Stable.  If so when?

Thanks to anyone who can help get this newbie up to speed.




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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-12 Thread Kent West

Bruce Hohl wrote:

I have been running Debian Stable on a PC and Debian
Testing on a PC for a few months.  All is well.  I
have a few questions:

1- Compared to Debian Stable, Debian Testing has many
more programs on the Gnome menu (many without icons). 
Will the next Stable release retain all these menu
items?  Or, will the next stable release retain a
smaller list of menu selections like the current
stable release?
  

I suspect the difference is that you have more apps installed on the
Testing box than you do on the Stable box. You might can install those
apps on the Stable box and see their icons appear.

Otherwise, as long as the apps don't disappear out of Testing by the
time Testing becomes Stable, then yes, the next Stable release will
retain all these menu items.

3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable.
 Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to
Debian Stable.  If so when?
  

No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and
the like.

-- 
Kent


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-12 Thread Marc Wilson

On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 07:56:18AM -0800, Bruce Hohl wrote:
 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable.
  Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to
 Debian Stable.  If so when?

OpenOffice.org 2 will never be added to Debian stable.  Instead, the next
time there is a stable release (Etch), OpenOffice.org 2 will be included.

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-12 Thread Ron Johnson

On Sat, 2005-11-12 at 10:13 -0600, Kent West wrote:
 Bruce Hohl wrote:
 
[snip]
 
 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable.
  Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to
 Debian Stable.  If so when?
   
 
 No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and
 the like.

Clarification:
When etch transitions from Testing to Stable, all the packages
(including, by that time, OpenOffice.org 2) will stay in etch/Stable.

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Kent West wrote:

 
3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable.
Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to
Debian Stable.  If so when?
 

 
 No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and
 the like.

And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the
desktop user.  It's also why I'll never run stable

At least Ubuntu promises you won't have to wait more than 6 months for
the next stable release.

And there's Fedora Core, who's latest release has been out for several
months.  They added OpenOffice.org 2, to their  updates repository
shortly after it's release.

But then, Fedora has that nasty YUM stuff.  APT kicks the pants off of
it (at least in the speed department).

And that my friends is what brought me to Debian etch/sid.

Stay tuned...

-- 
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www.angrykeyboarder.com
© 2005 angrykeyboarder  Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved

Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Marc Wilson wrote:
 On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 07:56:18AM -0800, Bruce Hohl wrote:
 
3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable.
 Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to
Debian Stable.  If so when?
 
 
 OpenOffice.org 2 will never be added to Debian stable.  Instead, the next
 time there is a stable release (Etch), OpenOffice.org 2 will be included.
 

And then OpenOffice.0rg 3, Firefox 2.0, GIMP 3.0, GNOME 2.16, and KDE
4.0 will be released within the following month discouraging many from
sticking with Debian stable


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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Antony Gelberg wrote:
snip

http://www.debian.doc/releases might help you understand how releases
work in Debian.
 
 
 One of these days I'll get it right. s/doc/org and apologies for the noise.
 
 

How about some more noise.

The full and correct URL please?

Is this perhaps what you meant?: http://www.debian.org/doc/

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-12 Thread Bruce Hohl

 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian
 Unstable.  Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be 
 added to Debian Stable.  If so when?
 
 
 No. Stable does not get new packages, other than
 bug/security fixes and the like.

 
 And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when
 it comes to the desktop user.  It's also why I'll 
 never run stable.

 At least Ubuntu promises you won't have to wait more
 than 6 months for the next stable release.
 
 And there's Fedora Core, who's latest release has
 been out for several months.  They added 
 OpenOffice.org 2, to their updates repository
 shortly after it's release.
 
 And that my friends is what brought me to Debian
 etch/sid.
 
OpenOffice 2.0 is an important piece of software.  So
important that for many desktop users like myself it
likely will drive choice of distribution/version.  I
changed one PC to Ubuntu 5.10 for OO 2.0.  I hope that
OO 2.0 will be available for Testing soon.




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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-12 Thread Mitch Wiedemann

Scott wrote:

Kent West wrote:
  



3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable.
Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to
Debian Stable.  If so when?


  

No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and
the like.



And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the
desktop user.  It's also why I'll never run stable

At least Ubuntu promises you won't have to wait more than 6 months for
the next stable release.

And there's Fedora Core, who's latest release has been out for several
months.  They added OpenOffice.org 2, to their  updates repository
shortly after it's release.

But then, Fedora has that nasty YUM stuff.  APT kicks the pants off of
it (at least in the speed department).

And that my friends is what brought me to Debian etch/sid.

Stay tuned...
  

Whether it is a flaw for the desktop user is relative to who the user
is.  It's not a flaw in Debian stable.

Debian's stable is for people who don't really care about the next
version of anything (security updates excepted), because the software
they have allows them to do the work they need done.  The beauty of
stable is that it is predictable and solid as a rock, not that it is
shiny and new.

stable is not for folks who have version envy.

I spent about year using various versions of Fedora Core because I
needed the latest versions of *.  I finally realized that I was
wasting a great deal of time upgrading perfectly useful software for no
reason, and fixing the bugs that were being introduced with each
upgrade.  That's great if I'm involved in helping the distribution
developers, but not so great if I'm just trying to get work done.

That is why I don't care about Fedora's and Ubuntu's 6-month cycle.  My
Debian stable computers do all the things that I need them to do right
now.  Aside from security updates, what do I need a new version of xmms
or OpenOffice for?

Of course, the great thing is that we all have a choice!

-- 

Mitch Wiedemann
Webmaster - Ithaca Free Software Association
http://ithacafreesoftware.org 



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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-12 Thread Robert Brockway


On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Scott wrote:


And then OpenOffice.0rg 3, Firefox 2.0, GIMP 3.0, GNOME 2.16, and KDE
4.0 will be released within the following month discouraging many from
sticking with Debian stable


I think most people want a faster stable release cycle (though not as fast 
as many distros).  This will mitigate the desire of users to use other 
distros for more up to date software.


We shall see whether or not this will happen of course :)  I certainly 
hope the release cycle can be sped up to 12-18 months.


Cheers,

Rob

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-12 Thread Mark Grieveson

OpenOffice 2.0 is an important piece of software...added 
OpenOffice.org 2, to their updates repository shortly after it's 
release...it likely will drive choice of distribution/version


I'm pretty tired of reading about OpenOffice 2.0.  I still prefer 
WordPerfect 6.1, to be honest, and it was released years ago.  What is 
it with Linux word processors that they can't have a grammar check?  
Heck, WordPerfect 6.1 was released ages ago with one.  But I digress.  
To my main point:  I'm a desktop user, not a programmer, and I had no 
problem installing the oh-so-special OpenOffice 2.0 on my 
Sarge-running computer.  So, my question is, what is all this fuss 
about?  Installing OpenOffice 2.0 on Sarge is a breeze.  Stop whining 
about nothing.


And now back to my first digression:  I realize that Abiword's latest 
has a grammar check (coincidentally, I also had no problem installing 
the latest Abiword on Sarge, which means anyone could install it, the 
newest of the new, on Sarge).  However, it fell far short of WordPerfect 
6.1's Grammatik (released just as mankind was picking up sticks and 
learning to beat the Monolith, I believe).  Likewise, Diction, a Unix 
tool, has been around forever; so, why do Linux word processors not have 
something that Windows word processors have had since mankind first 
realized the significance of having an opposable digit?



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Grammer Checkers was Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-12 Thread Carl Fink

On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 09:22:44PM -0500, Mark Grieveson wrote:

 And now back to my first digression:  I realize that Abiword's latest 
 has a grammar check (coincidentally, I also had no problem installing 
 the latest Abiword on Sarge, which means anyone could install it, the 
 newest of the new, on Sarge).  However, it fell far short of WordPerfect 
 6.1's Grammatik (released just as mankind was picking up sticks and 
 learning to beat the Monolith, I believe).  Likewise, Diction, a Unix 
 tool, has been around forever; so, why do Linux word processors not have 
 something that Windows word processors have had since mankind first 
 realized the significance of having an opposable digit?

Because no one has volunteered to write a free one that you, Mark Grieveson,
like.

Personally I think they're all useless and stupid.
-- 
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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Bruce Hohl wrote:
3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian
Unstable.  Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be 
added to Debian Stable.  If so when?


No. Stable does not get new packages, other than
bug/security fixes and the like.


And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when
it comes to the desktop user.  It's also why I'll 
never run stable.

At least Ubuntu promises you won't have to wait more
than 6 months for the next stable release.

And there's Fedora Core, who's latest release has
been out for several months.  They added 
OpenOffice.org 2, to their updates repository
shortly after it's release.

And that my friends is what brought me to Debian
etch/sid.

 
 OpenOffice 2.0 is an important piece of software.  So
 important that for many desktop users like myself it
 likely will drive choice of distribution/version.  I
 changed one PC to Ubuntu 5.10 for OO 2.0.  I hope that
 OO 2.0 will be available for Testing soon.

Well at least with OpenOffice.org, you can just download the software
from them directly but then...

You lose the tweaks that most Linux distributions add (like better
integration with GNOME and KDE).

The same is true for Firefox (at least the GNOME integration part).

And in many cases you lose the advantage of the program you downloaded
not being in package format (e.g. deb or rpm).

That was one of my motivations to try Debian sid out.  I figured with
testing/unstable I'd have a better chance of seeing my favorite packages
in Debian packages sooner, rather than later.

I was running Ubuntu 5.10 last week and had installed OOo 2.0.  At the
time it wasn't in any official repo yet, but an Ubuntu developer had it
on his site. There are links listed that you can add to your
sources.list file. I don't think it will show up in an Ubuntu repo till
it gets to Breezy Backports (and that just barely opened or till Ubuntu
6.04 is released.

See
http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-October/012520.html
for details.

Ok now back to Debian. ;-)

I was absolutely blown away by this:

The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04!
http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/

I'm rather surprised to see this.  Why?

Firefox is currently @ 1.07 and every point release since 1.0 has been
due to security issues.

http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/releases/

It's *especially* true with the latest version.

OK, Debian developers, help me out on this one will ya? ;-)

-- 
Scott
www.angrykeyboarder.com
© 2005 angrykeyboarder  Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved

Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-12 Thread Oliver Lupton

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Hash: SHA1

Scott wrote:
 I was absolutely blown away by this:
 
 The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04!
 http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/
 
 I'm rather surprised to see this.  Why?
 
 Firefox is currently @ 1.07 and every point release since 1.0 has been
 due to security issues.

Following the link you gave, I get to a file such as
mozilla-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge5_i386.deb, I'm not entirely sure what the
'-2' part means, but the 'sarge5' refers to this being the fifth
security update the the 1.0.4[-2] package.

At least, that's how I understand it :)

HTH

- -ol

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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

2005-11-12 Thread Bruce Hohl

  OpenOffice 2.0 is an important piece of
  software...added OpenOffice.org 2, to their
updates 
  repository shortly after it's release...it likely 
  will drive choice of distribution/version
 
 To my main point:  I'm a desktop user, not a
 programmer, and I had no problem installing the 
 oh-so-special OpenOffice 2.0 on my Sarge-running 
 computer.  So, my question is, what is all this fuss

 about?  Installing OpenOffice 2.0 on Sarge is a
 breeze.  Stop whining about nothing.
 

What is so special about OpenOffice?  Let me speak
from my point of view as a manager at a business and
advocate of open source software ...

OpenOffice is free, multi-platform, has a large user
base, and is of good quality.  Thus, I had it
installed on about 10 PCs for regular business where I
work.  All the other PCs have MS Office installed.  I
would not have done this with any of the other MS
Office alternatives.

What is so special about OO 2.0.  It has improved
filters for MS Office file formats (a defacto
standard).  And, OO 2.0 now includes a data base
component which I intend to start learning immediately
(after install) for business use.

YES, I can spend my time figuring out how to install
OO 2.0 on Sarge (and probably will) but I would rather
apt-get and spend my time creating OpenOffice
documents, spreadsheets and databases that impress my
associates.   



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Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie

Oliver Lupton wrote:
 Scott wrote:
 
I was absolutely blown away by this:

The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04!
http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/

I'm rather surprised to see this.  Why?

Firefox is currently @ 1.07 and every point release since 1.0 has been
due to security issues.
 
 
 Following the link you gave, I get to a file such as
 mozilla-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge5_i386.deb, I'm not entirely sure what the
 '-2' part means, but the 'sarge5' refers to this being the fifth
 security update the the 1.0.4[-2] package.

OK, but they also (logically) have 1.0.3 and 1.0.2 packages before it.
So logic would dictate 1.0.5, 1.0.6 and 1.07 following it.

I just checked Ubuntu's archive and they have 1.0.7 for their current
and all (3) previous distros.  And there's no mistaking what version it is:
mozilla-firefox_1.0.7-0ubuntu0.0.2_i386.deb

Anywho as far as I'm concerned this is moot, I'm not using stable now,
nor do I plan to in the figure (unless Debian changes it's policy).  If
I stick with Debian it will be always be testing/unstable.

Oh and why am did I decide to try Debian rather than stick with Ubuntu
(in case anyone was wondering)?  A) Curiosity B) less compatibility
problems with certain packages.  If you want full-blown multimedia you
have to install some unofficial packages that were written for Debian
(sometimes they work on Ubuntu, sometimes not).

So I figured well why not just try Debian? :-)

Forever in search of the (non-existent) perfect Linux distro,

-- 
Scott
www.angrykeyboarder.com
© 2005 angrykeyboarder  Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved

Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie