Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Fungi4All]

> From: a...@cityscape.co.uk
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 18:21:15 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
>> Fungi4All composed on 2017-07-19 17:39 (UTC-0400):
>> > > 27 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
>> > Need to get 68.5 MB of archives.> After this operation, 242 MB of 
>> > additional disk space will be used.
>> > Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
>> > Abort.
>>
>> > $ sudo apt-get upgrade
>> ...
>> > 25 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded.
>> > Need to get 21.1 MB of archives.
>> > After this operation, 145 kB of additional disk space will be used.
>> > Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
>> > Abort.
>>
>> Prezactly! ;-)
> The different results with apt upgrade as opposed to apt-get upgrade
> are due to apt installing new packages, something which apt-get will
> not do. Use apt-get dist-upgrade for that. The end result is the same.

I took your advise and used apt-get only across 4 Debian editions.
It did not stop systemd from being installed all on its own.
I started with 7, pretty minimal sysV and runit, slim, openbox, midori,
2-3 lxde pieces to save time and hustle, tried to go to 8. Every step
systemd was installing I would take it off before I would restart. I couldn't
even get the kernel to install properly. I would restore the initial 7 and
tried to go to 9. Same ol, same ol. Testing  I gave up and didn't even
try to go straight to sid :)
I thought maybe I can build a devuan. I would lose net-manager all the
time and with wifi it became the impossible task to achieve.
I don't remember how many times I had to remove firefox, deluge,
and some other commercial "free" software.
So much for the apt-get not installing shit on its own.
But if it was that easy it wouldn't have taken Devuan so long to get it
done.

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[David Wright]

On Fri 21 Jul 2017 at 00:43:08 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:
> Joe Pfeiffer composed on 2017-07-20 15:38 (UTC-0600):
> 
> > David Wright  wrote:
> 
> >> On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 14:57:50 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> >>> Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?
> 
> >> I did. Where does it say that?
> 
> > The closest thing to that statement I've encountered is in the Debian
> > Administrator's Handbook, "apt is a second command-line based front end
> > provided by APT which overcomes some design mistakes of apt-get."  It
> > doesn't quite say it's preferred, but it does say why the author of the
> > handbook thinks it's superior.
> 
> > https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.apt-get.html
> > section 6.2
> 
> The handbook paragraph following that quoted above includes this:
> 
>   "The most recommended interface, apt,..."
> 
> It only says apt is the cmdline interface that followed apt-get, not when it
> followed, but I think "overcomes design mistakes of apt-get" is enough to
> justify saying that apt is generally preferred to apt-get.

In §6,2 I actually _can't_ see where the author says it's superior.
I _can_ see that a substitution s/apt-get/apt/ has been made in
the newer version of the handbook (actually published just after
jessie was released) and in stretch's Installation Guide.

For a gloss on the "design mistakes" statement, see
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818560
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/270511/how-is-apt-the-new-and-improved-apt-get

Cheers,
David.

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Patrick Bartek]

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:48:17 +0200 Dejan Jocic 
wrote:

> On 20-07-17, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:48:17 +0200 Dejan Jocic 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > If you have minimal install, why do you suspect that something is
> > > wrong, rather to suppose that all is fine and that simply there
> > > was no security updates for your install? It is stable now, and
> > > as far as i can remember, all those security updates we did have
> > > of lately were somehow tied for graphical part, plus apache and
> > > ngninx. Apart for security updates, tough luck of getting some
> > > other updates on stable. And "everything worked fine" on your
> > > install of Stretch RC2 because it was still testing and there was
> > > much more updates then?
> > 
> > That was my first thought.  And as I used a Stable net-install disk
> > for my first tests of Stable, the system would have been up-to-date
> > after the install. But it's been two weeks since that time.  I've
> > added X, a window manager, utilities, apps, etc.  Based on my past
> > experience, historically, there should have been some fixes.  I've
> > never come across any such new release -- Debian or others -- that
> > didn't need a plethora of fixes in those few days to a month
> > after.  Or perhaps Stretch is bug free.  Or as I said in another
> > post: Maybe the maintainers are taking a vacation.
> > 
> > As far as RC2:  I dist-upgraded it to Stable in the course of my
> > tests. And as soon as it hit stable, apt-get upgrades ceased
> > producing anything for a week.  So, I downloaded the Stable
> > net-install CD for a new install to see if there was any
> > differences.
> > 
> > B
> > 
> 
> Yes, but did you really check if security updates debian stable had
> during those 2 weeks included packages that you have installed, or
> not? Your past experience is past, this is another install. Just take
> look at security updates and compare, there is no much philosophy
> there:
> 
> https://www.debian.org/security/
> 
> Look under recent advisories.

I will check.  Thanks.

B

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Dejan Jocic]

On 20-07-17, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:48:17 +0200 Dejan Jocic 
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > If you have minimal install, why do you suspect that something is
> > wrong, rather to suppose that all is fine and that simply there was
> > no security updates for your install? It is stable now, and as far as
> > i can remember, all those security updates we did have of lately were
> > somehow tied for graphical part, plus apache and ngninx. Apart for
> > security updates, tough luck of getting some other updates on stable.
> > And "everything worked fine" on your install of Stretch RC2 because
> > it was still testing and there was much more updates then?
> 
> That was my first thought.  And as I used a Stable net-install disk
> for my first tests of Stable, the system would have been up-to-date
> after the install. But it's been two weeks since that time.  I've added
> X, a window manager, utilities, apps, etc.  Based on my past
> experience, historically, there should have been some fixes.  I've
> never come across any such new release -- Debian or others -- that
> didn't need a plethora of fixes in those few days to a month after.  Or
> perhaps Stretch is bug free.  Or as I said in another post: Maybe the
> maintainers are taking a vacation.
> 
> As far as RC2:  I dist-upgraded it to Stable in the course of my tests.
> And as soon as it hit stable, apt-get upgrades ceased producing
> anything for a week.  So, I downloaded the Stable net-install CD for a
> new install to see if there was any differences.
> 
> B
> 

Yes, but did you really check if security updates debian stable had
during those 2 weeks included packages that you have installed, or not?
Your past experience is past, this is another install. Just take look at
security updates and compare, there is no much philosophy there:

https://www.debian.org/security/

Look under recent advisories.

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Patrick Bartek]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 05:55:15 + (UTC) david...@freevolt.org wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> 
> > Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install
> > apps, etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I
> > find this unusual.
> 
> And so, understandably, you feel prompted to seek confirmation that
> there have, in fact, been no updates applicable to your system.

Of course.  But I did do searches to see if something like this has
occured before,

> I have a somewhat minimal[1] amd64 stretch system too, and examining
> /var/log/apt/history.log indicates that the most recent date there
> were upgrades available for an already installed package was on
> 2017-07-09:
> 
>Start-Date: 2017-07-09  hh:mm:ss
>Commandline: /usr/bin/apt-get upgrade
>Upgrade: libdns-export162:amd64 (1:9.10.3.dfsg.P4-12.3,
> [snip]
> In principle, the fewer packages you have installed, the more likely
> there will be such apparent "dry spells".

This was my first thought, too.  But after installing X, window
manager, utilities, apps, and two weeks with nothing, it struck my
"this is out of the ordinary" bone.  Never have any of my Debian
installs gone that long without some upgrade activity, particularly
after an initial Stable release.

> > Did a mail list archive search for this, but didn't find
> > anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
> 
> It seems to me that the first step is determining whether there exists
> a problem to be solved.

Hence, my contacting the list. Right now, even with the advice I've
gotten, I can't find anything wrong system or configure-wise.

> Hope this helps.

Thanks for your response.

B

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Patrick Bartek]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:48:17 +0200 Dejan Jocic 
wrote:

> On 19-07-17, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 13:47:27 -0700 Jimmy Johnson
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > > On 07/19/2017 01:35 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 20:14:28 +0200 Dejan Jocic
> > > >  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >> On 19-07-17, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > > >>> Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can
> > > >>> install apps, etc., but get no security or stretch-update
> > > >>> "fixes," etc.  I find this unusual.  Did a mail list archive
> > > >>> search for this, but didn't find anything specific. Or did I
> > > >>> miss the solution?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> My Test Setup:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1
> > > >>> on a Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted
> > > >>> to sysvinit (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as
> > > >>> dependencies) and then added xorg, openbox window manager,
> > > >>> etc.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thanks for any feedback.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> B
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> dpkg -s unattended-upgrades
> > > > 
> > > > Not installed either by me or the installer
> > > > 
> > > >> If it is installed, it did your updates and security upgrades
> > > >> for you. If you do not like it and want to do manual
> > > >> updates/upgrades, do with root privs:
> > > > 
> > > > I have always done this manually since I first started using
> > > > Debian (Sarge).  And always will.  This is my personal machine.
> > > > 
> > > >> sed -i 's/1/0/g' /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/20auto-upgrades
> > > >>
> > > >> For further reading and understanding:
> > > >>
> > > >> https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgrades
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks for the reference.  I've been aware of this for a long
> > > > time, but chose not to use it.
> > > > 
> > > > My problem must be something else.
> > > 
> > > You also have packagekit and discover to deal with and who knows
> > > what else. Stopping auto-install is not that difficult, but
> > > stopping auto-update is a problem.
> > 
> > I think you've assumed some things incorrectly.  I did a basic
> > terminal only install with only basic system utilties, the last
> > option on the list.  No Desktop of any kind. No xserver.
> > Packagekit is not installed.  Discover was as a dependency, but I
> > didn't install it explicitly. No auto-install or auto-update
> > either. I converted to sysvinit, but left systemd stuff as
> > dependencies.  Later will install xorg and openbox, etc. for my
> > GUI. This is the same way I installed Wheezy 5 years ago. And it
> > works (and always has) fine.
> > 
> > FWIW, a few months ago, I installed Stretch RC2 the same way to
> > test it and everything worked including apt-get update, upgrade,
> > etc.
> > 
> > So, something is wrong.  And I won't install it for real until I
> > discover what.
> > 
> > B
> > 
> 
> If you have minimal install, why do you suspect that something is
> wrong, rather to suppose that all is fine and that simply there was
> no security updates for your install? It is stable now, and as far as
> i can remember, all those security updates we did have of lately were
> somehow tied for graphical part, plus apache and ngninx. Apart for
> security updates, tough luck of getting some other updates on stable.
> And "everything worked fine" on your install of Stretch RC2 because
> it was still testing and there was much more updates then?

That was my first thought.  And as I used a Stable net-install disk
for my first tests of Stable, the system would have been up-to-date
after the install. But it's been two weeks since that time.  I've added
X, a window manager, utilities, apps, etc.  Based on my past
experience, historically, there should have been some fixes.  I've
never come across any such new release -- Debian or others -- that
didn't need a plethora of fixes in those few days to a month after.  Or
perhaps Stretch is bug free.  Or as I said in another post: Maybe the
maintainers are taking a vacation.

As far as RC2:  I dist-upgraded it to Stable in the course of my tests.
And as soon as it hit stable, apt-get upgrades ceased producing
anything for a week.  So, I downloaded the Stable net-install CD for a
new install to see if there was any differences.

B

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Felix Miata]

Joe Pfeiffer composed on 2017-07-20 15:38 (UTC-0600):

> David Wright  wrote:

>> On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 14:57:50 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:

>>> Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?

>> I did. Where does it say that?

> The closest thing to that statement I've encountered is in the Debian
> Administrator's Handbook, "apt is a second command-line based front end
> provided by APT which overcomes some design mistakes of apt-get."  It
> doesn't quite say it's preferred, but it does say why the author of the
> handbook thinks it's superior.

> https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.apt-get.html
> section 6.2

The handbook paragraph following that quoted above includes this:

"The most recommended interface, apt,..."

It only says apt is the cmdline interface that followed apt-get, not when it
followed, but I think "overcomes design mistakes of apt-get" is enough to
justify saying that apt is generally preferred to apt-get.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Patrick Bartek]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 20:41:33 -0700 Jimmy Johnson
 wrote:

> On 07/19/2017 07:05 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 13:47:27 -0700 Jimmy Johnson
> >  wrote:
> > 
> >> On 07/19/2017 01:35 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 20:14:28 +0200 Dejan Jocic 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
>  On 19-07-17, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can
> > install apps, etc., but get no security or stretch-update
> > "fixes," etc.  I find this unusual.  Did a mail list archive
> > search for this, but didn't find anything specific. Or did I
> > miss the solution?
> >
> > My Test Setup:
> >
> > Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1
> > on a Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to
> > sysvinit (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as
> > dependencies) and then added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.
> >
> > Thanks for any feedback.
> >
> > B
> >
> 
>  dpkg -s unattended-upgrades
> >>>
> >>> Not installed either by me or the installer
> >>>
>  If it is installed, it did your updates and security upgrades for
>  you. If you do not like it and want to do manual
>  updates/upgrades, do with root privs:
> >>>
> >>> I have always done this manually since I first started using
> >>> Debian (Sarge).  And always will.  This is my personal machine.
> >>>
>  sed -i 's/1/0/g' /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/20auto-upgrades
> 
>  For further reading and understanding:
> 
>  https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgrades
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the reference.  I've been aware of this for a long
> >>> time, but chose not to use it.
> >>>
> >>> My problem must be something else.
> >>
> >> You also have packagekit and discover to deal with and who knows
> >> what else. Stopping auto-install is not that difficult, but
> >> stopping auto-update is a problem.
> > 
> > I think you've assumed some things incorrectly.  I did a basic
> > terminal only install with only basic system utilties, the last
> > option on the list.  No Desktop of any kind. No xserver.
> > Packagekit is not installed.  Discover was as a dependency, but I
> > didn't install it explicitly. No auto-install or auto-update
> > either. I converted to sysvinit, but left systemd stuff as
> > dependencies.  Later will install xorg and openbox, etc. for my
> > GUI. This is the same way I installed Wheezy 5 years ago. And it
> > works (and always has) fine.
> > 
> > FWIW, a few months ago, I installed Stretch RC2 the same way to
> > test it and everything worked including apt-get update, upgrade,
> > etc.
> > 
> > So, something is wrong.  And I won't install it for real until I
> > discover what.
> > 
> > B
> 
> 
> A few months ago, hum, I wonder what could have changed, let's see 
> Stretch was in testing and not frozen. Yep, you're right it's broken.

No need for sarcasm.  I've been using Debian since Sarge, and this is
the first time I've noted such a lack of "fixes" and security updates
after the initial release of a Stable.  Historically, that's unusual.
Maybe, the maintainers are taking a vacation. ;-)

> Here's a link for you to check out: 
> https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgrades Pay attention to the term 
> "periodic", it's turned on by default and even if the config file is
> not there it's still turned on.

I did check.  Since the package unattended-upgrades is not installed --
not on my initial test minimal install or the full LXDE desktop one I
just did -- it can't be "turned on" by default or otherwise.   There's
also no config file for it in /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ Maybe, it's
installed by default with GNOME.  I don't know as I don't use GNOME and
haven't in about 6 years

B.

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Joe Pfeiffer]

David Wright  writes:

> On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 14:57:50 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:
>> Patrick Bartek composed on 2017-07-19 10:29 (UTC-0700):
>> 
>> > Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install apps,
>> > etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I find
>> > this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but didn't find
>> > anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
>> 
>> > My Test Setup:
>> 
>> > Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
>> > Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to sysvinit
>> > (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as dependencies) and then
>> > added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.
>> 
>> > Thanks for any feedback.
>> 
>> Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?
>
> I did. Where does it say that?

The closest thing to that statement I've encountered is in the Debian
Administrator's Handbook, "apt is a second command-line based front end
provided by APT which overcomes some design mistakes of apt-get."  It
doesn't quite say it's preferred, but it does say why the author of the
handbook thinks it's superior.

https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.apt-get.html
section 6.2

But this whole discussion is a complete red herring.  Whatever the OP's
actual issue, the probability that it has anything to do with apt
vs. apt-get is so low that pretty much everything else should be
considered first.

(not that it matters, but personally I prefer aptitude)

Re: Apt vs apt-get [Was: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?]

[Fungi4All]

> Op 20-07-17 om 18:58 schreef Fungi4All:
>> Does it matter what we all think, even if agree or it matters what
>> the manual of the package says. In my installation this is manual
>> I found, it says apt all over the place, meanwhile there is apt-get
>> package to install. /usr/share/man/man8/apt-get.8.gz
>>
>> In my repositories the only mention of apt-get is in cron-apt
>> and its dependency says apt. Its description says:
>> automatic update of packages using apt-get
>> There is also apt-utils, dep apt, apt-get not mentioned
> What are you on about? Are you even aware of what this set of tools
> actually is? You certainly make it sound like you aren"t.
> Apart from a number of packages with related utilities, there has only
> ever been a package called apt. So that"s what people refer to. You
> won"t find an apt-get or apt-cache package. Those are just executables
> provided by the apt package.
> Until (faily) recently, the apt package had no executable called apt.
> Look at the apt manpage. Among other things, it mentions what this "new"
> executable was created for. And this bit is particularly interesting:
> All features of apt(8) are available in dedicated APT tools like apt-
> get(8) and apt-cache(8) as well. apt(8) just changes the default value
> of some options (see apt.conf(5) and specifically the Binary scope).
> So you should prefer using these commands (potentially with some
> additional options enabled) in your scripts as they keep backward
> compatibility as much as possible.
> In other words, by all means use apt on the command line, just don"t do
> it in scripts. That ought to tell you something.

It told me, all I needed to know. Thanks!

Re: Apt vs apt-get [Was: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?]

[Frank]

Op 20-07-17 om 18:58 schreef Fungi4All:

Does it matter what we all think, even if agree or it matters what
the manual of the package says.  In my installation this is manual
I found, it says apt all over the place, meanwhile there is apt-get
package to install.  /usr/share/man/man8/apt-get.8.gz

In my repositories the only mention of apt-get is in cron-apt
and its dependency says apt.  Its description says:
automatic update of packages using apt-get
There is also apt-utils, dep apt, apt-get not mentioned


What are you on about? Are you even aware of what this set of tools 
actually is? You certainly make it sound like you aren't.


Apart from a number of packages with related utilities, there has only 
ever been a package called apt. So that's what people refer to. You 
won't find an apt-get or apt-cache package. Those are just executables 
provided by the apt package.


Until (faily) recently, the apt package had no executable called apt. 
Look at the apt manpage. Among other things, it mentions what this 'new' 
executable was created for. And this bit is particularly interesting:


  All features of apt(8) are available in dedicated APT tools like apt-
  get(8) and apt-cache(8) as well. apt(8) just changes the default value
  of some options (see apt.conf(5) and specifically the Binary scope).
  So you should prefer using these commands (potentially with some
  additional options enabled) in your scripts as they keep backward
  compatibility as much as possible.

In other words, by all means use apt on the command line, just don't do 
it in scripts. That ought to tell you something.

Re: Apt vs apt-get [Was: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?]

[Fungi4All]

> From: deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Agreed. I was beginning to despair of this list while reading through
> this thread. But we seem to live in times when evidence matters less
> and less, and assertion more and more.
> Sorry about the politics. Anyway, AFAICT according to the Release
> Notes, apt-get is preferred over aptitude for the upgrade from
> jessie to stretch (where this is relevant); according to the
> Installation Manual, apt is the tool of choice, though no preference
> is expressed over apt-get which is not mentioned.

Does it matter what we all think, even if agree or it matters what
the manual of the package says. In my installation this is manual
I found, it says apt all over the place, meanwhile there is apt-get
package to install. /usr/share/man/man8/apt-get.8.gz
In my repositories the only mention of apt-get is in cron-apt
and its dependency says apt. Its description says:
automatic update of packages using apt-get
There is also apt-utils, dep apt, apt-get not mentioned
Aptitude is recommended by apt.
If a script in /usr/bin said apt-get = apt would you still use it?
Or I could call it pacman or yogurt or apt-get-from-2-decades-ago
Nevertheless, the data showed there can be some difference
still between the one and the other, in rare occassions like 2
different sid installations of similar packages and similar amd64
machines. How 'bout them apples?

Re: Apt vs apt-get [Was: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?]

[David Wright]

On Thu 20 Jul 2017 at 21:21:08 (+1000), Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 20.07.17 03:27, Felix Miata wrote:
> > David Wright composed on 2017-07-19 23:33 (UTC-0500):
> > 
> > > On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 14:57:50 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:
> > 
> > >> Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?
> > 
> > > I did. Where does it say that?
> > 
> > It was a long time ago that I first encountered it, and don't remember 
> > where it
> > was. I have to think searching 'apt-get vs. apt stretch' will get you hits 
> > like
> > what I've run across.
> 
> Ah, yes, "I had a dream ... that my preference was ordained from upon
> high." That's the source of all sorts of bunkum.

Agreed. I was beginning to despair of this list while reading through
this thread. But we seem to live in times when evidence matters less
and less, and assertion more and more.

Sorry about the politics. Anyway, AFAICT according to the Release
Notes, apt-get is preferred over aptitude for the upgrade from
jessie to stretch (where this is relevant); according to the
Installation Manual, apt is the tool of choice, though no preference
is expressed over apt-get which is not mentioned.

There is one wrinkle here, however, and it might easily be overlooked:
apt now¹ removes packages from the cache after their successful
installation, whereas apt-get's behaviour is unchanged. This could
explain some people's complaints of losing debs over recent months.
I almost missed this because grepping on "clean" doesn't catch it
as it's not a clean, only a selective removal.

> I've used apt-get for decades, across ubuntu and debian, and it has
> always worked for me. It is amusing to observe pedants furiously
> peddling their own preference, not least when some vague "authority" is
> claimed. Even if it was a bunch of drunk virgins, naked under moonlight
> (whether devs or not), their preference is only their preference.
> 
> The rest of us use what we choose, and it is foolish to attempt to
> impose one's will on others. (Not least when one has no idea why. ;-)

¹closing a 15-year-old "bug". man apt   warns of the possibility of
changes between versions, unlike apt-get which is designed to be
more stable and hence scriptable.

Cheers,
David.

Apt vs apt-get [Was: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?]

[Erik Christiansen]

On 20.07.17 03:27, Felix Miata wrote:
> David Wright composed on 2017-07-19 23:33 (UTC-0500):
> 
> > On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 14:57:50 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> >> Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?
> 
> > I did. Where does it say that?
> 
> It was a long time ago that I first encountered it, and don't remember where 
> it
> was. I have to think searching 'apt-get vs. apt stretch' will get you hits 
> like
> what I've run across.

Ah, yes, "I had a dream ... that my preference was ordained from upon
high." That's the source of all sorts of bunkum.

I've used apt-get for decades, across ubuntu and debian, and it has
always worked for me. It is amusing to observe pedants furiously
peddling their own preference, not least when some vague "authority" is
claimed. Even if it was a bunch of drunk virgins, naked under moonlight
(whether devs or not), their preference is only their preference.

The rest of us use what we choose, and it is foolish to attempt to
impose one's will on others. (Not least when one has no idea why. ;-)

Erik

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Felix Miata]

David Wright composed on 2017-07-19 23:33 (UTC-0500):

> On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 14:57:50 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:

>> Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?

> I did. Where does it say that?

It was a long time ago that I first encountered it, and don't remember where it
was. I have to think searching 'apt-get vs. apt stretch' will get you hits like
what I've run across.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Dejan Jocic]

On 19-07-17, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 13:47:27 -0700 Jimmy Johnson
>  wrote:
> 
> > On 07/19/2017 01:35 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > > On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 20:14:28 +0200 Dejan Jocic 
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > >> On 19-07-17, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > >>> Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install
> > >>> apps, etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I
> > >>> find this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but
> > >>> didn't find anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
> > >>>
> > >>> My Test Setup:
> > >>>
> > >>> Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
> > >>> Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to
> > >>> sysvinit (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as
> > >>> dependencies) and then added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for any feedback.
> > >>>
> > >>> B
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> dpkg -s unattended-upgrades
> > > 
> > > Not installed either by me or the installer
> > > 
> > >> If it is installed, it did your updates and security upgrades for
> > >> you. If you do not like it and want to do manual updates/upgrades,
> > >> do with root privs:
> > > 
> > > I have always done this manually since I first started using Debian
> > > (Sarge).  And always will.  This is my personal machine.
> > > 
> > >> sed -i 's/1/0/g' /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/20auto-upgrades
> > >>
> > >> For further reading and understanding:
> > >>
> > >> https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgrades
> > > 
> > > Thanks for the reference.  I've been aware of this for a long time,
> > > but chose not to use it.
> > > 
> > > My problem must be something else.
> > 
> > You also have packagekit and discover to deal with and who knows what 
> > else. Stopping auto-install is not that difficult, but stopping 
> > auto-update is a problem.
> 
> I think you've assumed some things incorrectly.  I did a basic terminal
> only install with only basic system utilties, the last option on the
> list.  No Desktop of any kind. No xserver.  Packagekit is not
> installed.  Discover was as a dependency, but I didn't install it
> explicitly. No auto-install or auto-update either. I converted to
> sysvinit, but left systemd stuff as dependencies.  Later will install
> xorg and openbox, etc. for my GUI. This is the same way I installed
> Wheezy 5 years ago. And it works (and always has) fine.
> 
> FWIW, a few months ago, I installed Stretch RC2 the same way to test it
> and everything worked including apt-get update, upgrade, etc.
> 
> So, something is wrong.  And I won't install it for real until I
> discover what.
> 
> B
> 

If you have minimal install, why do you suspect that something is wrong,
rather to suppose that all is fine and that simply there was no security
updates for your install? It is stable now, and as far as i can
remember, all those security updates we did have of lately were somehow
tied for graphical part, plus apache and ngninx. Apart for security
updates, tough luck of getting some other updates on stable. And
"everything worked fine" on your install of Stretch RC2 because it was
still testing and there was much more updates then?

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[davidson]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017, Patrick Bartek wrote:


Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install apps,
etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I find
this unusual.


And so, understandably, you feel prompted to seek confirmation that
there have, in fact, been no updates applicable to your system.

I have a somewhat minimal[1] amd64 stretch system too, and examining
/var/log/apt/history.log indicates that the most recent date there
were upgrades available for an already installed package was on
2017-07-09:

  Start-Date: 2017-07-09  hh:mm:ss
  Commandline: /usr/bin/apt-get upgrade
  Upgrade: libdns-export162:amd64 (1:9.10.3.dfsg.P4-12.3, 
1:9.10.3.dfsg.P4-12.3+deb9u1), xserver-common:amd64 (2  :1.19.2-1, 
2:1.19.2-1+deb9u1), xserver-xorg-core:amd64 (2:1.19.2-1, 2:1.19.2-1+deb9u1), 
libtiff5:amd64 (4.0.8-  2, 4.0.8-2+deb9u1), libisc-export160:amd64 
(1:9.10.3.dfsg.P4-12.3, 1:9.10.3.dfsg.P4-12.3+deb9u1)
  End-Date: 2017-07-09  hh:mm:ss

Casting an eye over the entries in debian-security-announce list
archives, since that date, suggests to me that there have, indeed,
been no upgrades that apply to any package I have installed.

If you are not subscribed to that list, you can examine them here:

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-security-announce/2017/

Depending on the contents of your /etc/apt/sources.list , you might
also want to examine other lists like debian-stable-announce:

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-stable-announce/recent

In principle, the fewer packages you have installed, the more likely
there will be such apparent "dry spells".


Did a mail list archive search for this, but didn't find
anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?


It seems to me that the first step is determining whether there exists
a problem to be solved.

Hope this helps.

Notes
  1. Roughly quantifying "somewhat minimal":
 $ dpkg-query -l |grep '^ii' |wc -l
 686

--

"One of the greatest advantages of the totalitarian elites of the
twenties and thirties was to turn any statement of fact into a
question of motive." -- Hannah Arendt

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[David Wright]

On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 14:57:50 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:
> Patrick Bartek composed on 2017-07-19 10:29 (UTC-0700):
> 
> > Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install apps,
> > etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I find
> > this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but didn't find
> > anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
> 
> > My Test Setup:
> 
> > Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
> > Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to sysvinit
> > (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as dependencies) and then
> > added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.
> 
> > Thanks for any feedback.
> 
> Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?

I did. Where does it say that?

Cheers,
David.

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Jimmy Johnson]

On 07/19/2017 07:05 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 13:47:27 -0700 Jimmy Johnson
 wrote:


On 07/19/2017 01:35 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 20:14:28 +0200 Dejan Jocic 
wrote:


On 19-07-17, Patrick Bartek wrote:

Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install
apps, etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I
find this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but
didn't find anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?

My Test Setup:

Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to
sysvinit (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as
dependencies) and then added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.

Thanks for any feedback.

B



dpkg -s unattended-upgrades


Not installed either by me or the installer


If it is installed, it did your updates and security upgrades for
you. If you do not like it and want to do manual updates/upgrades,
do with root privs:


I have always done this manually since I first started using Debian
(Sarge).  And always will.  This is my personal machine.


sed -i 's/1/0/g' /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/20auto-upgrades

For further reading and understanding:

https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgrades


Thanks for the reference.  I've been aware of this for a long time,
but chose not to use it.

My problem must be something else.


You also have packagekit and discover to deal with and who knows what
else. Stopping auto-install is not that difficult, but stopping
auto-update is a problem.


I think you've assumed some things incorrectly.  I did a basic terminal
only install with only basic system utilties, the last option on the
list.  No Desktop of any kind. No xserver.  Packagekit is not
installed.  Discover was as a dependency, but I didn't install it
explicitly. No auto-install or auto-update either. I converted to
sysvinit, but left systemd stuff as dependencies.  Later will install
xorg and openbox, etc. for my GUI. This is the same way I installed
Wheezy 5 years ago. And it works (and always has) fine.

FWIW, a few months ago, I installed Stretch RC2 the same way to test it
and everything worked including apt-get update, upgrade, etc.

So, something is wrong.  And I won't install it for real until I
discover what.

B



A few months ago, hum, I wonder what could have changed, let's see 
Stretch was in testing and not frozen. Yep, you're right it's broken.


Here's a link for you to check out: 
https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgrades Pay attention to the term 
"periodic", it's turned on by default and even if the config file is not 
there it's still turned on.


Have fun :)
--
Jimmy Johnson

Ubuntu 14.04 LTS - KDE 4.13.3 - Intel G3220 - EXT4 at sda5
Registered Linux User #380263

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Patrick Bartek]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 17:13:06 -0400 Fungi4All 
wrote:

> From: nemomm...@gmail.com
> 
> > On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 14:32:04 -0400 Dan Ritter 
> > wrote:
> >> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:29:02AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >> > Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week. Can install
> >> > apps, etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc. I
> >> > find this unusual. Did a mail list archive search for this, but
> >> > didn"t find anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
> >>
> >> Did you do an apt-get update before your upgrade?
> > Yes. I"ve been using Debian since Sarge. So, this isn"t my first
> > rodeo. But this is the first time I"ve ever had this occur. I"m
> > beginning to think this might be an installer "problem" (I did a
> > terminal only mnimal install to begin with) even though sources.list
> > and configs look okay. I"m going to do a "default" install with the
> > LXDE desktop and see if I have the same problem.
> 
> Since you insist without any evidence that apt-get does a better
> job, can you spare us the courtesy of telling us what mirror are
> you using? It is a possible explanation, since you "verified" that
> auto-upgrade is not installed (or was uninstalled after your
> installation maybe). And mirrors have failed in the past.

Where did I say apt-get was better?  I just use it instead of apt or
aptitude or synaptic.  Tried them all.  One not better than the other.
I just prefer it.

Right now, I'm using the ftp.us.debian.org mirror with main contrib and
non-free enabled. No third party repos at this time.  Have tried a
couple of others -- utexas and georgia tech -- but experienced errors
at times due to missing packages or site being down or unavailable.

I didn't uninistall auto-upgrade.  With the basic terminal only system
I build off of, it never gets installed in the first place.  Apparently,
such "auto" stuff is now a product of a desktop environment (or systemd?
). Something I abandoned 5 years ago in favor of a window manager and a
single panel.

B

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Patrick Bartek]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 13:47:27 -0700 Jimmy Johnson
 wrote:

> On 07/19/2017 01:35 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 20:14:28 +0200 Dejan Jocic 
> > wrote:
> > 
> >> On 19-07-17, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >>> Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install
> >>> apps, etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I
> >>> find this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but
> >>> didn't find anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
> >>>
> >>> My Test Setup:
> >>>
> >>> Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
> >>> Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to
> >>> sysvinit (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as
> >>> dependencies) and then added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for any feedback.
> >>>
> >>> B
> >>>
> >>
> >> dpkg -s unattended-upgrades
> > 
> > Not installed either by me or the installer
> > 
> >> If it is installed, it did your updates and security upgrades for
> >> you. If you do not like it and want to do manual updates/upgrades,
> >> do with root privs:
> > 
> > I have always done this manually since I first started using Debian
> > (Sarge).  And always will.  This is my personal machine.
> > 
> >> sed -i 's/1/0/g' /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/20auto-upgrades
> >>
> >> For further reading and understanding:
> >>
> >> https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgrades
> > 
> > Thanks for the reference.  I've been aware of this for a long time,
> > but chose not to use it.
> > 
> > My problem must be something else.
> 
> You also have packagekit and discover to deal with and who knows what 
> else. Stopping auto-install is not that difficult, but stopping 
> auto-update is a problem.

I think you've assumed some things incorrectly.  I did a basic terminal
only install with only basic system utilties, the last option on the
list.  No Desktop of any kind. No xserver.  Packagekit is not
installed.  Discover was as a dependency, but I didn't install it
explicitly. No auto-install or auto-update either. I converted to
sysvinit, but left systemd stuff as dependencies.  Later will install
xorg and openbox, etc. for my GUI. This is the same way I installed
Wheezy 5 years ago. And it works (and always has) fine.

FWIW, a few months ago, I installed Stretch RC2 the same way to test it
and everything worked including apt-get update, upgrade, etc.

So, something is wrong.  And I won't install it for real until I
discover what.

B

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Brian]

On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 18:21:15 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> Fungi4All composed on 2017-07-19 17:39 (UTC-0400):
> 
> >> Brian composed:
> >> One picture is worth a thousand words: 
> ...
> > Here is a picture from my backup machine
> > $ sudo apt upgrade
> ...
> > 27 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
> > Need to get 68.5 MB of archives.> After this operation, 242 MB of 
> > additional disk space will be used.
> > Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
> > Abort.
> 
> > $ sudo apt-get upgrade
> ...
> > 25 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded.
> > Need to get 21.1 MB of archives.
> > After this operation, 145 kB of additional disk space will be used.
> > Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
> > Abort.
> 
> Prezactly! ;-)

The different results with apt upgrade as opposed to apt-get upgrade
are due to apt installing new packages, something which apt-get will
not do. Use apt-get dist-upgrade for that. The end result is the same.

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Felix Miata]

Fungi4All composed on 2017-07-19 17:39 (UTC-0400):

>> Brian composed:
>> One picture is worth a thousand words: 
...
> Here is a picture from my backup machine
> $ sudo apt upgrade
...
> 27 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
> Need to get 68.5 MB of archives.> After this operation, 242 MB of additional 
> disk space will be used.
> Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
> Abort.

> $ sudo apt-get upgrade
...
> 25 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded.
> Need to get 21.1 MB of archives.
> After this operation, 145 kB of additional disk space will be used.
> Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
> Abort.

Prezactly! ;-)
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Fungi4All]

> From: a...@cityscape.co.uk
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> One picture is worth a thousand words:

Here is a picture from my backup machine
$ sudo apt upgrade
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following NEW packages will be installed:
linux-headers-4.11.0-2-amd64 linux-headers-4.11.0-2-common 
linux-image-4.11.0-2-amd64
The following packages have been kept back:
libqupzilla1 qupzilla
The following packages will be upgraded:
bind9-host dnsutils git git-man gnome-keyring host libaudit1 libbind9-140 
libdns-export162 libdns162
libfaad2 libgutenprint2 libisc-export160 libisc160 libisccc140 libisccfg140 
liblwres141
libpam-gnome-keyring libsmbclient libwbclient0 linux-compiler-gcc-6-x86 
linux-headers-amd64
linux-image-amd64 linux-kbuild-4.11 linux-libc-dev printer-driver-gutenprint 
samba-libs
27 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
Need to get 68.5 MB of archives.
After this operation, 242 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
Abort.
$ sudo apt-get upgrade
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following packages have been kept back:
libqupzilla1 linux-headers-amd64 linux-image-amd64 qupzilla
The following packages will be upgraded:
bind9-host dnsutils git git-man gnome-keyring host libaudit1 libbind9-140 
libdns-export162 libdns162
libfaad2 libgutenprint2 libisc-export160 libisc160 libisccc140 libisccfg140 
liblwres141
libpam-gnome-keyring libsmbclient libwbclient0 linux-compiler-gcc-6-x86 
linux-kbuild-4.11 linux-libc-dev
printer-driver-gutenprint samba-libs
25 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded.
Need to get 21.1 MB of archives.
After this operation, 145 kB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
Abort.
$ sudo synaptic
Hey hey hey!!!
Synaptic did the apt way not the apt-get way.
Difference, the linux-image files
This is on sid though, and the op was on stretch but I ain't going back.

> root@stretch:~# apt-get install exim4
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree
> Reading state information... Done
> The following additional packages will be installed:
> exim4-base exim4-config exim4-daemon-light guile-2.0-libs libfribidi0 
> libgc1c2 libgsasl7 libkyotocabinet16v5
> liblzo2-2 libmailutils5 libmariadbclient18 libntlm0 libpython2.7 
> libpython2.7-minimal libpython2.7-stdlib
> mailutils mailutils-common mysql-common psmisc
> Suggested packages:
> eximon4 exim4-doc-html | exim4-doc-info spf-tools-perl swaks mailutils-mh 
> mailutils-doc
> The following NEW packages will be installed:
> exim4 exim4-base exim4-config exim4-daemon-light guile-2.0-libs libfribidi0 
> libgc1c2 libgsasl7
> libkyotocabinet16v5 liblzo2-2 libmailutils5 libmariadbclient18 libntlm0 
> libpython2.7 libpython2.7-minimal
> libpython2.7-stdlib mailutils mailutils-common mysql-common psmisc
> 0 upgraded, 20 newly installed, 0 to remove and 58 not upgraded.
> Need to get 11.0 MB/11.5 MB of archives.
> After this operation, 42.4 MB of additional disk space will be used.
> Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
> Abort.
> root@stretch:~#
> root@stretch:~#
> root@stretch:~#
> root@stretch:~# apt install exim4
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree
> Reading state information... Done
> The following additional packages will be installed:
> exim4-base exim4-config exim4-daemon-light guile-2.0-libs libfribidi0 
> libgc1c2 libgsasl7 libkyotocabinet16v5
> liblzo2-2 libmailutils5 libmariadbclient18 libntlm0 libpython2.7 
> libpython2.7-minimal libpython2.7-stdlib
> mailutils mailutils-common mysql-common psmisc
> Suggested packages:
> eximon4 exim4-doc-html | exim4-doc-info spf-tools-perl swaks mailutils-mh 
> mailutils-doc
> The following NEW packages will be installed:
> exim4 exim4-base exim4-config exim4-daemon-light guile-2.0-libs libfribidi0 
> libgc1c2 libgsasl7
> libkyotocabinet16v5 liblzo2-2 libmailutils5 libmariadbclient18 libntlm0 
> libpython2.7 libpython2.7-minimal
> libpython2.7-stdlib mailutils mailutils-common mysql-common psmisc
> 0 upgraded, 20 newly installed, 0 to remove and 58 not upgraded.
> Need to get 11.0 MB/11.5 MB of archives.
> After this operation, 42.4 MB of additional disk space will be used.
> Do you want to continue? [Y/n]

And HURRAY!!!
samba (2:4.6.5+dfsg-5) unstable; urgency=medium
The samba service has been removed. Use the individual services instead:
* nmbd
* smbd
* samba-ad-dc
-- Mathieu Parent  Tue, 18 Jul 2017 22:52:05 +0200
I had forgotten I had done this to backup my friends crappy machine.
Left the backdoor open. Thanks Mathieu!

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Fungi4All]

> From: a...@cityscape.co.uk
> On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 16:20:21 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> One picture is worth a thousand words:
> Do you want to continue? [Y/n]

n

> Which should be trusted more. apt-get or apt?

I've always liked apt. It is four keystrokes shorter

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Fungi4All]

From: nemomm...@gmail.com

> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 14:32:04 -0400 Dan Ritter 
> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:29:02AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>> > Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week. Can install
>> > apps, etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc. I
>> > find this unusual. Did a mail list archive search for this, but
>> > didn"t find anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
>>
>> Did you do an apt-get update before your upgrade?
> Yes. I"ve been using Debian since Sarge. So, this isn"t my first
> rodeo. But this is the first time I"ve ever had this occur. I"m
> beginning to think this might be an installer "problem" (I did a
> terminal only mnimal install to begin with) even though sources.list
> and configs look okay. I"m going to do a "default" install with the
> LXDE desktop and see if I have the same problem.

Since you insist without any evidence that apt-get does a better
job, can you spare us the courtesy of telling us what mirror are
you using? It is a possible explanation, since you "verified" that
auto-upgrade is not installed (or was uninstalled after your installation
maybe). And mirrors have failed in the past.

> B

Just a thought

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Brian]

On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 16:20:21 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> Brian composed on 2017-07-19 20:54 (UTC+0100):
> 
> > On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 15:49:47 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> >> Fungi4All composed on 2017-07-19 15:18 (UTC-0400):
> 
> >> > But will there be different results with apt upgrade than with apt-get?
> 
> >> Will:  I have no idea.
> 
> >> Can:   Yes.
> 
> >> Apt and apt-get are not identical twins.
> 
> > Those sort of statements are begging for an example of the diferences
> > with an upgrade or package installation. Will we see it?
> 
> Again, I have no idea. It would take a lot of time to catch it happening, then
> restore the previous state so as to be able to actually have a chance to find
> what happened to cause it and subsequently be able to repeat at will. All I 
> can
> say is I have a bunch of Stretch installations, and there were several 
> occasions
> where, in order to see if differences were possible, after an 'apt-get update;
> apt-get upgrade' I immediately followed up with 'apt update; apt upgrade' and
> more packages were replaced/installed/purged. Possibly along the way to final
> Stretch release whatever caused or allowed those differences became possible 
> no
> longer?

One picture is worth a thousand words:

root@stretch:~# apt-get install exim4
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following additional packages will be installed:
  exim4-base exim4-config exim4-daemon-light guile-2.0-libs libfribidi0 
libgc1c2 libgsasl7 libkyotocabinet16v5
  liblzo2-2 libmailutils5 libmariadbclient18 libntlm0 libpython2.7 
libpython2.7-minimal libpython2.7-stdlib
  mailutils mailutils-common mysql-common psmisc
Suggested packages:
  eximon4 exim4-doc-html | exim4-doc-info spf-tools-perl swaks mailutils-mh 
mailutils-doc
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  exim4 exim4-base exim4-config exim4-daemon-light guile-2.0-libs libfribidi0 
libgc1c2 libgsasl7
  libkyotocabinet16v5 liblzo2-2 libmailutils5 libmariadbclient18 libntlm0 
libpython2.7 libpython2.7-minimal
  libpython2.7-stdlib mailutils mailutils-common mysql-common psmisc
0 upgraded, 20 newly installed, 0 to remove and 58 not upgraded.
Need to get 11.0 MB/11.5 MB of archives.
After this operation, 42.4 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
Abort.
root@stretch:~#
root@stretch:~#
root@stretch:~#
root@stretch:~# apt install exim4
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following additional packages will be installed:
  exim4-base exim4-config exim4-daemon-light guile-2.0-libs libfribidi0 
libgc1c2 libgsasl7 libkyotocabinet16v5
  liblzo2-2 libmailutils5 libmariadbclient18 libntlm0 libpython2.7 
libpython2.7-minimal libpython2.7-stdlib
  mailutils mailutils-common mysql-common psmisc
Suggested packages:
  eximon4 exim4-doc-html | exim4-doc-info spf-tools-perl swaks mailutils-mh 
mailutils-doc
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  exim4 exim4-base exim4-config exim4-daemon-light guile-2.0-libs libfribidi0 
libgc1c2 libgsasl7
  libkyotocabinet16v5 liblzo2-2 libmailutils5 libmariadbclient18 libntlm0 
libpython2.7 libpython2.7-minimal
  libpython2.7-stdlib mailutils mailutils-common mysql-common psmisc
0 upgraded, 20 newly installed, 0 to remove and 58 not upgraded.
Need to get 11.0 MB/11.5 MB of archives.
After this operation, 42.4 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n]


Which should be trusted more. apt-get or apt?

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Patrick Bartek]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 14:57:50 -0400 Felix Miata 
wrote:

> Patrick Bartek composed on 2017-07-19 10:29 (UTC-0700):
> 
> > Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install
> > apps, etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I
> > find this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but
> > didn't find anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
> 
> > My Test Setup:
> 
> > Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
> > Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to sysvinit
> > (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as dependencies) and
> > then added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.
> 
> > Thanks for any feedback.
> 
> Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?

I will try apt and see what happens, but apt-get is just a front end
for apt like aptitude and synaptic.  Of course, there could be a bug in
apt-get.

Thanks

B

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Jimmy Johnson]

On 07/19/2017 01:35 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 20:14:28 +0200 Dejan Jocic 
wrote:


On 19-07-17, Patrick Bartek wrote:

Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install
apps, etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I
find this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but
didn't find anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?

My Test Setup:

Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to sysvinit
(did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as dependencies) and
then added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.

Thanks for any feedback.

B



dpkg -s unattended-upgrades


Not installed either by me or the installer


If it is installed, it did your updates and security upgrades for you.
If you do not like it and want to do manual updates/upgrades, do with
root privs:


I have always done this manually since I first started using Debian
(Sarge).  And always will.  This is my personal machine.


sed -i 's/1/0/g' /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/20auto-upgrades

For further reading and understanding:

https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgrades


Thanks for the reference.  I've been aware of this for a long time, but
chose not to use it.

My problem must be something else.


You also have packagekit and discover to deal with and who knows what 
else. Stopping auto-install is not that difficult, but stopping 
auto-update is a problem.

--
Jimmy Johnson

Ubuntu 14.04 LTS - KDE 4.13.2 - Intel G3220 - EXT4 at sda1
Registered Linux User #380263

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Patrick Bartek]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 14:32:04 -0400 Dan Ritter 
wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:29:02AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install
> > apps, etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I
> > find this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but
> > didn't find anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
> > 
> > My Test Setup:
> > 
> > Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
> > Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to sysvinit
> > (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as dependencies) and
> > then added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.
> > 
> 
> Did you do an apt-get update before your upgrade?

Yes.  I've been using Debian since Sarge.  So, this isn't my first
rodeo.  But this is the first time I've ever had this occur.  I'm
beginning to think this might be an installer "problem" (I did a
terminal only mnimal install to begin with) even though sources.list
and configs look okay. I'm going to do a "default" install with the
LXDE desktop and see if I have the same problem.

B

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Patrick Bartek]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 20:14:28 +0200 Dejan Jocic 
wrote:

> On 19-07-17, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install
> > apps, etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I
> > find this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but
> > didn't find anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
> > 
> > My Test Setup:
> > 
> > Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
> > Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to sysvinit
> > (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as dependencies) and
> > then added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.
> > 
> > Thanks for any feedback.
> > 
> > B  
> > 
> 
> dpkg -s unattended-upgrades

Not installed either by me or the installer

> If it is installed, it did your updates and security upgrades for you.
> If you do not like it and want to do manual updates/upgrades, do with
> root privs:

I have always done this manually since I first started using Debian
(Sarge).  And always will.  This is my personal machine.

> sed -i 's/1/0/g' /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/20auto-upgrades
> 
> For further reading and understanding:
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgrades

Thanks for the reference.  I've been aware of this for a long time, but
chose not to use it.

My problem must be something else.

B

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Brad Rogers]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 20:54:28 +0100
Brian  wrote:

Hello Brian,
 
>Those sort of statements are begging for an example of the diferences
>with an upgrade or package installation. Will we see it?

I seem to recall there have been several examples over the past year or
so on this very list.  A search of the archives might be in order.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
I'm spending all my money and it's going up my nose
Teenage Depression - Eddie & The Hot Rods


pgpdpGUkPFEQh.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Felix Miata]

Brian composed on 2017-07-19 20:54 (UTC+0100):

> On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 15:49:47 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

>> Fungi4All composed on 2017-07-19 15:18 (UTC-0400):

>> > But will there be different results with apt upgrade than with apt-get?

>> Will:I have no idea.

>> Can: Yes.

>> Apt and apt-get are not identical twins.

> Those sort of statements are begging for an example of the diferences
> with an upgrade or package installation. Will we see it?

Again, I have no idea. It would take a lot of time to catch it happening, then
restore the previous state so as to be able to actually have a chance to find
what happened to cause it and subsequently be able to repeat at will. All I can
say is I have a bunch of Stretch installations, and there were several occasions
where, in order to see if differences were possible, after an 'apt-get update;
apt-get upgrade' I immediately followed up with 'apt update; apt upgrade' and
more packages were replaced/installed/purged. Possibly along the way to final
Stretch release whatever caused or allowed those differences became possible no
longer?
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Fungi4All]

> From: mrma...@earthlink.net
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Fungi4All composed on 2017-07-19 15:18 (UTC-0400):
>>> mrma...@earthlink.net composed:
> ...
>>> Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?
>> But will there be different results with apt upgrade than with apt-get?
> Will: I have no idea.
> Can: Yes.
> Apt and apt-get are not identical twins.
> --
> "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
> Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
> Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

This is on sid:
I know a static picture from a system already upgraded is no indicator but
I run 4 commands out of curiocity and got identical 4 responses about
removing some no longer needed pkgs which I do not all want to be
autoremoved.
apt-get dist-upgrade
apt dist-upgrade
apt-get upgrade
apt upgrade
No difference, nothing to be upgraded, 2 pkgs held back, about
15 other packages can be removed as no longer needed.
Included was the buster 4.9.03 image which I want to keep around as
I think it will be an LTS and as a backup in case something upgraded
breaks. Even after I locked 4.9.03 the image came up on the list
but I am sure the autoremove would not have removed it.
I haven't actually checked but I think they have been merged as one
In synaptic the term apt-get only exists in cron-apt description.
The /etc/apt directory seems to be getting more and more complex.

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Brian]

On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 15:49:47 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> Fungi4All composed on 2017-07-19 15:18 (UTC-0400):
> 
> >> mrma...@earthlink.net composed:
> ...
> >> Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?
> 
> > But will there be different results with apt upgrade than with apt-get?
> 
> Will: I have no idea.
> 
> Can:  Yes.
> 
> Apt and apt-get are not identical twins.

Those sort of statements are begging for an example of the diferences
with an upgrade or package installation. Will we see it?

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Felix Miata]

Fungi4All composed on 2017-07-19 15:18 (UTC-0400):

>> mrma...@earthlink.net composed:
...
>> Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?

> But will there be different results with apt upgrade than with apt-get?

Will:   I have no idea.

Can:Yes.

Apt and apt-get are not identical twins.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Brian]

On Wed 19 Jul 2017 at 15:18:20 -0400, Fungi4All wrote:

> > From: mrma...@earthlink.net
> > To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> > Patrick Bartek composed on 2017-07-19 10:29 (UTC-0700):
> >> Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week. Can install apps,
> >> etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc. I find
> >> this unusual. Did a mail list archive search for this, but didn"t find
> >> anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
> >> My Test Setup:
> >> Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
> >> Wheezy host. Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to sysvinit
> >> (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as dependencies) and then
> >> added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.
> >> Thanks for any feedback.
> > Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?
> 
> But will there be different results with apt upgrade than with apt-get?
> After the previous discussion about dist-upgrade I find this confusing.

There had better not be and probably are not as they use the same code
base to resolve the installation of packages.

One problem that apt solves is that in apt-get the commonly used package
management commands are divided between apt-get and apt-cache. Apt unifies
them. If you see this as an advantage you might consider using it. It is
intended to be used by end-users. apt-get was intended to be used by
end-users, too. Take your pick. Either will keep your system sound.

 apt has a progress bar .

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Fungi4All]

> From: mrma...@earthlink.net
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Patrick Bartek composed on 2017-07-19 10:29 (UTC-0700):
>> Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week. Can install apps,
>> etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc. I find
>> this unusual. Did a mail list archive search for this, but didn"t find
>> anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
>> My Test Setup:
>> Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
>> Wheezy host. Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to sysvinit
>> (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as dependencies) and then
>> added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.
>> Thanks for any feedback.
> Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?

But will there be different results with apt upgrade than with apt-get?
After the previous discussion about dist-upgrade I find this confusing.

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Dejan Jocic]

On 19-07-17, Felix Miata wrote:
> Patrick Bartek composed on 2017-07-19 10:29 (UTC-0700):
> 
> > Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install apps,
> > etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I find
> > this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but didn't find
> > anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
> 
> > My Test Setup:
> 
> > Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
> > Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to sysvinit
> > (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as dependencies) and then
> > added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.
> 
> > Thanks for any feedback.
> 
> Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?
> -- 
> "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
> 
>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
> 
> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
> 

What does it have to do with his problem? It does not matter which tool
he is using, apt-get, aptitude or apt. And apt-get is far from
obsolete/depreciated tool and is still preferred and well proven tool of
many.

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Felix Miata]

Patrick Bartek composed on 2017-07-19 10:29 (UTC-0700):

> Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install apps,
> etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I find
> this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but didn't find
> anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?

> My Test Setup:

> Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
> Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to sysvinit
> (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as dependencies) and then
> added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.

> Thanks for any feedback.

Did you miss that in Stretch apt is preferred to apt-get?
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Dan Ritter]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:29:02AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install apps,
> etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I find
> this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but didn't find
> anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
> 
> My Test Setup:
> 
> Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
> Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to sysvinit
> (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as dependencies) and then
> added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.
> 

Did you do an apt-get update before your upgrade?

update refreshes the package list.

-dsr-

Re: Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Dejan Jocic]

On 19-07-17, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install apps,
> etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I find
> this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but didn't find
> anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?
> 
> My Test Setup:
> 
> Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
> Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to sysvinit
> (did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as dependencies) and then
> added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.
> 
> Thanks for any feedback.
> 
> B  
> 

dpkg -s unattended-upgrades

If it is installed, it did your updates and security upgrades for you.
If you do not like it and want to do manual updates/upgrades, do with
root privs:

sed -i 's/1/0/g' /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/20auto-upgrades

For further reading and understanding:

https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgrades

Apt-get Upgrade Problem in Stretch?

[Patrick Bartek]

Getting no results from apt-get upgrade after a week.  Can install apps,
etc., but get no security or stretch-update "fixes," etc.  I find
this unusual.  Did a mail list archive search for this, but didn't find
anything specific. Or did I miss the solution?

My Test Setup:

Stretch Stable 64-bit from net-install disk in Virtualbox 5.1 on a
Wheezy host.  Basic terminal install (no GUI), converted to sysvinit
(did not do anything to systemd files. Kept as dependencies) and then
added xorg, openbox window manager, etc.

Thanks for any feedback.

B