Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[tomas]

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On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 08:28:52AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:55:28PM -0500, Michael Milliman wrote:
> > For me, though, the important aspect is will sxiv change the desktop
> > background like feh will?
> 
> If all you want is to set the root window (desktop/background) image,
> "xsetbg" from the xloadimage package will do nicely.

This might not interact well with "Desktop environments" (i.e. Gnome,
KDE and derivatives, and perhaps to a lesser extent XFCE). As far as
I remember, those tend to cover the X root with an own window and play
other funny games, so backgrounds (and screen savers) become less
obvious as under the simpler arrangement "X + window manager".

But things may have improved since then.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:55:28PM -0500, Michael Milliman wrote:
> For me, though, the important aspect is will sxiv change the desktop
> background like feh will?

If all you want is to set the root window (desktop/background) image,
"xsetbg" from the xloadimage package will do nicely.

If you want additional features like thumbnail galleries, then I don't
have any recommendations, as I don't use such programs.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Brian]

On Tue 30 May 2017 at 04:15:10 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 05/29/2017 10:55 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:
> >
> >On 05/29/2017 01:19 PM, Brian wrote:
> >>
> >>There are legitimate concerns about aspects of feh's behaviour, not
> >>sufficient as yet to prevent my recommending it, but the topic prompted
> >>a bit of exploring. So I took a look at Debian's sxiv in Stretch.
> >>
> >>sxiv is somewhat similar to feh. It has an installed size a third of
> >>feh's (an advantage?) and is fast at rendering and responsive. Nothing
> >>scientific, but thumbnails (without caching) seem to render quicker than
> >>feh does it. One can easily switch between thumbnail view and picture
> >>display. The upstream developer is also active, which is never a bad
> >>thing.
> >>
> >>Downsides? Definitely. But this post is an advocacy one for those Debian
> >>users who just want to view their pictures without installing tons of
> >>GNOME dependencies or like to be able to configure things for their
> >>particular use case.
> >>
> >>I am now torn between feh and sxiv. That is the problem with threads
> >>like this, which promote delving into available packages and having to
> >>make a choice. :)
> >>
> >For me, though, the important aspect is will sxiv change the desktop
> >background like feh will?
> 
> I found no mention of anything like that in its man page.
> YMMV

 Nope. There are lots of wallpaper setters available. You can
 also integrate the tool of your choice via the key handler.

  https://github.com/muennich/sxiv/issues/192

-- 
Brian.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Richard Owlett]

On 05/29/2017 10:55 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:



On 05/29/2017 01:19 PM, Brian wrote:

On Sat 27 May 2017 at 19:13:25 +0100, Brian wrote:


On Sat 27 May 2017 at 09:52:45 -0500, David Wright wrote:


On Sat 27 May 2017 at 12:32:06 (+0100), Brian wrote:

On Fri 26 May 2017 at 17:57:40 -0500, Michael Milliman wrote:


And actually, the --no-xinerama flag is not needed, at least on my
system.  I use feh --bg-fill ... and it works just fine.  Of course,
that is a very limited (and safe) usage of feh.  I don't think it wise
to use it for anything much more (IMHO).


Surprising after all these years that feh is now revealed as an unsafe
image viewer.


Wow, I didn't realise I'd participated in a revelation.


It happens all the time on -user. :)


Fancy another one?

There are legitimate concerns about aspects of feh's behaviour, not
sufficient as yet to prevent my recommending it, but the topic prompted
a bit of exploring. So I took a look at Debian's sxiv in Stretch.

sxiv is somewhat similar to feh. It has an installed size a third of
feh's (an advantage?) and is fast at rendering and responsive. Nothing
scientific, but thumbnails (without caching) seem to render quicker than
feh does it. One can easily switch between thumbnail view and picture
display. The upstream developer is also active, which is never a bad
thing.

Downsides? Definitely. But this post is an advocacy one for those Debian
users who just want to view their pictures without installing tons of
GNOME dependencies or like to be able to configure things for their
particular use case.

I am now torn between feh and sxiv. That is the problem with threads
like this, which promote delving into available packages and having to
make a choice. :)


For me, though, the important aspect is will sxiv change the desktop
background like feh will?


I found no mention of anything like that in its man page.
YMMV


I have been following this thread closely
since opening it and have learned quit a bit.  I agree an active
upstream is always a good thing.  And I admit, I am concerned about some
of what has been reported of feh's behavior, though most of that
behavior is inconsequential in my use case.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Michael Milliman]

On 05/29/2017 01:19 PM, Brian wrote:
> On Sat 27 May 2017 at 19:13:25 +0100, Brian wrote:
> 
>> On Sat 27 May 2017 at 09:52:45 -0500, David Wright wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat 27 May 2017 at 12:32:06 (+0100), Brian wrote:
 On Fri 26 May 2017 at 17:57:40 -0500, Michael Milliman wrote:

> And actually, the --no-xinerama flag is not needed, at least on my
> system.  I use feh --bg-fill ... and it works just fine.  Of course,
> that is a very limited (and safe) usage of feh.  I don't think it wise
> to use it for anything much more (IMHO).

 Surprising after all these years that feh is now revealed as an unsafe
 image viewer.
>>>
>>> Wow, I didn't realise I'd participated in a revelation.
>>
>> It happens all the time on -user. :)
> 
> Fancy another one?
> 
> There are legitimate concerns about aspects of feh's behaviour, not
> sufficient as yet to prevent my recommending it, but the topic prompted
> a bit of exploring. So I took a look at Debian's sxiv in Stretch.
> 
> sxiv is somewhat similar to feh. It has an installed size a third of
> feh's (an advantage?) and is fast at rendering and responsive. Nothing
> scientific, but thumbnails (without caching) seem to render quicker than
> feh does it. One can easily switch between thumbnail view and picture
> display. The upstream developer is also active, which is never a bad
> thing.
> 
> Downsides? Definitely. But this post is an advocacy one for those Debian
> users who just want to view their pictures without installing tons of
> GNOME dependencies or like to be able to configure things for their
> particular use case.
> 
> I am now torn between feh and sxiv. That is the problem with threads
> like this, which promote delving into available packages and having to
> make a choice. :)
> 
For me, though, the important aspect is will sxiv change the desktop
background like feh will? I have been following this thread closely
since opening it and have learned quit a bit.  I agree an active
upstream is always a good thing.  And I admit, I am concerned about some
of what has been reported of feh's behavior, though most of that
behavior is inconsequential in my use case.


-- 
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Brian]

On Sat 27 May 2017 at 19:13:25 +0100, Brian wrote:

> On Sat 27 May 2017 at 09:52:45 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> 
> > On Sat 27 May 2017 at 12:32:06 (+0100), Brian wrote:
> > > On Fri 26 May 2017 at 17:57:40 -0500, Michael Milliman wrote:
> > > 
> > > > And actually, the --no-xinerama flag is not needed, at least on my
> > > > system.  I use feh --bg-fill ... and it works just fine.  Of course,
> > > > that is a very limited (and safe) usage of feh.  I don't think it wise
> > > > to use it for anything much more (IMHO).
> > > 
> > > Surprising after all these years that feh is now revealed as an unsafe
> > > image viewer.
> > 
> > Wow, I didn't realise I'd participated in a revelation.
> 
> It happens all the time on -user. :)

Fancy another one?

There are legitimate concerns about aspects of feh's behaviour, not
sufficient as yet to prevent my recommending it, but the topic prompted
a bit of exploring. So I took a look at Debian's sxiv in Stretch.

sxiv is somewhat similar to feh. It has an installed size a third of
feh's (an advantage?) and is fast at rendering and responsive. Nothing
scientific, but thumbnails (without caching) seem to render quicker than
feh does it. One can easily switch between thumbnail view and picture
display. The upstream developer is also active, which is never a bad
thing.

Downsides? Definitely. But this post is an advocacy one for those Debian
users who just want to view their pictures without installing tons of
GNOME dependencies or like to be able to configure things for their
particular use case.

I am now torn between feh and sxiv. That is the problem with threads
like this, which promote delving into available packages and having to
make a choice. :)

-- 
Brian.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Brian]

On Sat 27 May 2017 at 09:52:45 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> On Sat 27 May 2017 at 12:32:06 (+0100), Brian wrote:
> > On Fri 26 May 2017 at 17:57:40 -0500, Michael Milliman wrote:
> > 
> > > And actually, the --no-xinerama flag is not needed, at least on my
> > > system.  I use feh --bg-fill ... and it works just fine.  Of course,
> > > that is a very limited (and safe) usage of feh.  I don't think it wise
> > > to use it for anything much more (IMHO).
> > 
> > Surprising after all these years that feh is now revealed as an unsafe
> > image viewer.
> 
> Wow, I didn't realise I'd participated in a revelation.

It happens all the time on -user. :)
 
> I noticed the overwriting problem in September 2007, within days of
> buying a digital camera that set the orientation flag. (Previously,
> I'd been using a work cast-off which didn't set it.) I'd used xzgv
> for some years as my image viewer but never had much luck with its
> --exif-orient option, so I tried feh as an alternative because
> it appeared to honour it.
> 
> Very soon after using feh, I noticed that the timestamps displayed
> by mc on my camera picture directories were getting screwed up.
> Of course, these picture files get backed up straight from the SD
> card before I even look at them, so I was able to restore the
> original pictures without any difficulty once I'd worked out
> what to blame.

My first reaction on encountering the overwriting a short time ago was
to be annoyed; perhaps a similar reaction to yours. After reading that
the transformation was lossless (no pixels harmed in the process) I came
to terms with it for a while. I regarded the original photos as having
the wrong orientation and didn't mind ending up with ones which were
"correct". Also, any file change does not materially affect printing.

Then I decided it is usually not a good idea to lose an original file,
so I unbound the editing keys and rebound them to backup the original
before conducting any rotations etc. The "Q" key was also rebound to
restore the file on quitting feh. This effort made me feel better but
I still wondered whether losing the original was technically critical
in all circumstances. I am persuadable.

If libjpeg-progs (libjpeg-turbo-progs) is purged the issue becomes a
non-issue.

> (However there are still probably a few downloaded images that are
> not in their original state, because I have no practical way of
> discovering which ones they are.)
> 
> Apologies for not bringing it up then. I didn't resubscribe
> here for another 8 years and was only reminded about the problem
> on seeing this thread. FWIW I use xsetbg (xloadimage) for my
> desktops, but my laptops use the background colour as a
> battery-state and, in extremis, CPU temperature indicator. So,
> for example, if the power cord dislodges, the presently green
> background will switch to yellow.

The only backgrounds I contemplate having are ones with a solid color.
So its xsetroot for me on most occasions.

> > I use it to look at an image prior to printing it from feh
> > and see that as quick, reliable and convenient but not as unwise.
> 
> Understood. I didn't know whether you were a feh user, or had just
> read the man page, when I made my mouse comment. In any case, such
> single-use instances as proof-checking and wallpaper-setting may
> well justify its use, but my comment about its misdescription
> and dangers was intended for readers of this list who might use
> it as a general-purpose viewer after installing it in the wake of
> this thread.

It doesn't take much effort to damn a piece of software and labelling
it as unsafe without a justification is one way to steer users away
from it. feh would probably now be "a thing of history" if it were not
for its present maintainer, Daniel Friesel. Most people would not read
the issues on github and could form an unjustified impression of feh
and its development from such unsubstantiated claims. Articulated
criticism is one thing, assassination by innuendo is another.
 
> BTW I checked the error message I mentioned earlier. Feh itself
> emits the incorrect error message for PNG files, but the correct
> message is emitted by the spawned jpegtran program for JPGs.

Confirmed.

Incidentally, your mouse remarks (re Ctrl+2) are valid but (untested) I
expect the action could be rebound to a different button. Stretch has a
--auto-rotate option, which is very useful. It can easily be installed
on Jessie with a few extra packages to get it going.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Curt]

On 2017-05-27, David Wright  wrote:
>
> BTW I checked the error message I mentioned earlier. Feh itself
> emits the incorrect error message for PNG files, but the correct
> message is emitted by the spawned jpegtran program for JPGs.
>

Please file a wish-list bug for a name change to fey (forewarned being
forearmed).

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[David Wright]

On Sat 27 May 2017 at 12:32:06 (+0100), Brian wrote:
> On Fri 26 May 2017 at 17:57:40 -0500, Michael Milliman wrote:
> 
> > On 05/25/2017 05:56 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > 
> > > If I had read the man page more slowly that using the menu to set the
> > > image as wallpaper was unnecessary. Use:
> > > feh --no-xinerama  --bg-fill
> > > /usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg
> > > 
> > > 
> > And actually, the --no-xinerama flag is not needed, at least on my
> > system.  I use feh --bg-fill ... and it works just fine.  Of course,
> > that is a very limited (and safe) usage of feh.  I don't think it wise
> > to use it for anything much more (IMHO).
> 
> Surprising after all these years that feh is now revealed as an unsafe
> image viewer.

Wow, I didn't realise I'd participated in a revelation.

I noticed the overwriting problem in September 2007, within days of
buying a digital camera that set the orientation flag. (Previously,
I'd been using a work cast-off which didn't set it.) I'd used xzgv
for some years as my image viewer but never had much luck with its
--exif-orient option, so I tried feh as an alternative because
it appeared to honour it.

Very soon after using feh, I noticed that the timestamps displayed
by mc on my camera picture directories were getting screwed up.
Of course, these picture files get backed up straight from the SD
card before I even look at them, so I was able to restore the
original pictures without any difficulty once I'd worked out
what to blame.

(However there are still probably a few downloaded images that are
not in their original state, because I have no practical way of
discovering which ones they are.)

Apologies for not bringing it up then. I didn't resubscribe
here for another 8 years and was only reminded about the problem
on seeing this thread. FWIW I use xsetbg (xloadimage) for my
desktops, but my laptops use the background colour as a
battery-state and, in extremis, CPU temperature indicator. So,
for example, if the power cord dislodges, the presently green
background will switch to yellow.

> I use it to look at an image prior to printing it from feh
> and see that as quick, reliable and convenient but not as unwise.

Understood. I didn't know whether you were a feh user, or had just
read the man page, when I made my mouse comment. In any case, such
single-use instances as proof-checking and wallpaper-setting may
well justify its use, but my comment about its misdescription
and dangers was intended for readers of this list who might use
it as a general-purpose viewer after installing it in the wake of
this thread.

BTW I checked the error message I mentioned earlier. Feh itself
emits the incorrect error message for PNG files, but the correct
message is emitted by the spawned jpegtran program for JPGs.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Brian]

On Fri 26 May 2017 at 17:57:40 -0500, Michael Milliman wrote:

> On 05/25/2017 05:56 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > 
> > If I had read the man page more slowly that using the menu to set the
> > image as wallpaper was unnecessary. Use:
> > feh --no-xinerama  --bg-fill
> > /usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg
> > 
> > 
> And actually, the --no-xinerama flag is not needed, at least on my
> system.  I use feh --bg-fill ... and it works just fine.  Of course,
> that is a very limited (and safe) usage of feh.  I don't think it wise
> to use it for anything much more (IMHO).

Surprising after all these years that feh is now revealed as an unsafe
image viewer. I use it to look at an image prior to printing it from feh
and see that as quick, reliable and convenient but not as unwise.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Michael Milliman]

On 05/26/2017 09:48 AM, Ric Moore wrote:
> On 05/25/2017 06:56 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 05/24/2017 12:26 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> 
>>> The man page 
>>> _mentions_ setting wallpaper in passing my noting "Use --no-xinerama to
>>> treat the whole X display as one screen when setting wallpapers."
> 
> I use one wallpaper across four screens. I just right click on the
> desktop, select "Desktop Settings", select your wallpaper and scroll the
> vertical bar down to reveal the settings you want (or make it full
> screen)  select "Spanning Screens" style and check "Apply to all
> workspaces.  Bob's your uncle, you should be set. Net, go to some wall
> paper site and find W_I_D_E wallpapers. :) Ric
> p/s Using XFCE.
That is the problem, Ric.  My original post for this thread is that with
the current mate-desktop in Stretch, this no longer works.  The current
work-around is using feh to set the background, which does work. There
is an upstream fix, upgrading to caja version 1.16.3 is supposed to fix
the problem, but that version is not yet in the Stretch repositories.
There is currently a bug filed against this, and hopefully the
maintainers will get the problem solved and feh will be a thing of
history :)
> 

-- 
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Michael Milliman]

On 05/25/2017 06:08 AM, Dejan Jocic wrote:
> On 25-05-17, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 05/24/2017 12:26 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:
>>> On 05/20/2017 09:31 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:
 [snip]
>> The bug report also lists a workaround (which I haven't tried).
>>
 The workaround is using the feh package to manually set the background
 image.  This does work, however, it has to be done each time you
 log-in. It is better than nothing.  Upstream also appears to have
 a bug reported on it, and they suggest installation of mate-desktop
 16.2 with caja 16.3, neither of which has made it to the Debian
 distribution as of yet.
>>>
>>> Being one who emphatically avoids graphics I found a subtle gotcha.
>>>
>>> The man page 
>>> _mentions_ setting wallpaper in passing my noting "Use --no-xinerama to
>>> treat the whole X display as one screen when setting wallpapers."
>>>
>>> An example command line to use would be (as a single line):
>>> feh --no-xinerama /usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg
>>>
>>> It also does not mention how to set it as the wallpaper ;)
>>> Once the above command has displayed the chosen image:
>>>  1. right-click anywhere in the image
>>>  2. chose File->Background->Set Filled from the displayed menu/sub-menus
>>>
>>
>> If I had read the man page more slowly that using the menu to set the image
>> as wallpaper was unnecessary. Use:
>> feh --no-xinerama  --bg-fill
>> /usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>>
> It's been a while since I've used feh for background. Anyway, it should
> save your choice in .fehbg file. And you should add that file to
> autostart, to preserve your background settings.
> 
That is what the man page says, and it does indeed create the ~/.fehbg
file.  But for whatever reason, I have not needed to invoke said file.
My background continues to work, even across a re-boot after having
invoked feh --bg-fill ...
> 
> 

-- 
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Michael Milliman]

On 05/25/2017 05:56 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 05/24/2017 12:26 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 05/20/2017 09:31 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:
>>> [snip]
> The bug report also lists a workaround (which I haven't tried).
>
>>> The workaround is using the feh package to manually set the background
>>> image.  This does work, however, it has to be done each time you
>>> log-in. It is better than nothing.  Upstream also appears to have
>>> a bug reported on it, and they suggest installation of mate-desktop
>>> 16.2 with caja 16.3, neither of which has made it to the Debian
>>> distribution as of yet.
>>
>> Being one who emphatically avoids graphics I found a subtle gotcha.
>>
>> The man page 
>> _mentions_ setting wallpaper in passing my noting "Use --no-xinerama to
>> treat the whole X display as one screen when setting wallpapers."
>>
>> An example command line to use would be (as a single line):
>> feh --no-xinerama
>> /usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg
>>
>> It also does not mention how to set it as the wallpaper ;)
>> Once the above command has displayed the chosen image:
>>  1. right-click anywhere in the image
>>  2. chose File->Background->Set Filled from the displayed menu/sub-menus
>>
> 
> If I had read the man page more slowly that using the menu to set the
> image as wallpaper was unnecessary. Use:
> feh --no-xinerama  --bg-fill
> /usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg
> 
> 
And actually, the --no-xinerama flag is not needed, at least on my
system.  I use feh --bg-fill ... and it works just fine.  Of course,
that is a very limited (and safe) usage of feh.  I don't think it wise
to use it for anything much more (IMHO).
> 
> 

-- 
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Richard Owlett]

On 05/26/2017 09:48 AM, Ric Moore wrote:

On 05/25/2017 06:56 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 05/24/2017 12:26 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:



The man page 
_mentions_ setting wallpaper in passing my noting "Use --no-xinerama to
treat the whole X display as one screen when setting wallpapers."


I use one wallpaper across four screens. I just right click on the
desktop, select "Desktop Settings", select your wallpaper and scroll the
vertical bar down to reveal the settings you want (or make it full
screen)  select "Spanning Screens" style and check "Apply to all
workspaces.  Bob's your uncle, you should be set. Net, go to some wall
paper site and find W_I_D_E wallpapers. :) Ric
p/s Using XFCE.



 Whole thread becomes moot whenever an upstream Mate bugfix 
percolates to Debian repository.


I'm using only one "view port"(right term?) so feh as is is satisfactory.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Ric Moore]

On 05/25/2017 06:56 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 05/24/2017 12:26 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:



The man page 
_mentions_ setting wallpaper in passing my noting "Use --no-xinerama to
treat the whole X display as one screen when setting wallpapers."


I use one wallpaper across four screens. I just right click on the 
desktop, select "Desktop Settings", select your wallpaper and scroll the 
vertical bar down to reveal the settings you want (or make it full 
screen)  select "Spanning Screens" style and check "Apply to all 
workspaces.  Bob's your uncle, you should be set. Net, go to some wall 
paper site and find W_I_D_E wallpapers. :) Ric

p/s Using XFCE.

--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Brian]

On Thu 25 May 2017 at 10:38:22 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> On Thu 25 May 2017 at 12:18:44 (+0100), Brian wrote:
> > On Wed 24 May 2017 at 18:57:01 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > 
> > > On Wed 24 May 2017 at 17:28:52 (-0500), Michael Milliman wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I installed and have been using feh as a stop-gap until the Debian
> > > > repositories catch up to upstream and/or fix the problem in Stretch.
> > > > Been working just fine, with its limitations.  It's better than a black
> > > > desktop. :)  I had to read the man page a couple of times and try it
> > > > another couple of times to make it work, but work it does.
> > > 
> > > I prefer to keep feh off my systems; its description is a lie.
> > > 
> > > feh - image viewer and cataloguer
> > > 
> > > It's an editor that has no concept of a buffer, but just scribbles
> > > over the original file. And, IIRC, the error message, when thwarted
> > > by a read-only file, is incorrect: it blames the permissions of
> > > the directory, not the file.
> > 
> > The description is not intended to deceive
> 
> It calls itself a viewer, and that is plainly deceptive when
> the program irrecoverably modifies the file with one keystroke,
> whether deliberate or not.

We'll agree on the deceptive, non-deceitful nature of the description,
then.

> > and the limited editing
> > functions are described in the manual.
> 
> One would hope they are. But most viewers I've come across do
> not modify the file when carrying out the trivial but vital
> operations one would expect to be present: orientation,
> flipping etc.
> 
> I would also point out that these single dangerous keystrokes
> are adjacent to other keys that one might expect to use, and
> can use, safely. Eg _ (invert) is next to +, | (flip) is next
> (British layout) to both A and Shift itself.
> 
> I really can't understand why these particular operations
> have been chosen to be in-place; it's grossly incompetent
> interface design.
> 
> > Scribbling can be avoided
> > (Ctrl+2 in the manual):
> 
> I wonder whether you realise that's a mouse command. Have you

It's strange what people wonder about. I suppose it comes from assuming
the other person lacks reading skills and never tests anything. Sad.

> tried holding down Control, then pressing and holding down
> both buttons within the prescribed time constraint, then
> trying to move another digit on the touchpad to get anything
> resembling a precise rightangle rotation?
> 
> No, this is an entirely different function from the flip/invert/
> rotate functions one expects in a viewer. Apropos these mouse
> commands, what's the mysterious "null button" (first in the list)
> that's meant to restore the image?
> 
> > https://github.com/derf/feh/issues/86
> 
> Oh, I see people agree with me. Depressingly, the < and > commands
> are legacy baggage, and derf (flagged as "Owner") says they will
> be kept. So, my choice, and it's no feh, period.

Glad to have helped. A primary source is rarely deceptive or deceitful.

Sometimes feh's modification of a file could have unwanted consequences.
Other times it is of no consequence. But carrying out any operation on
an original file at any time is to be avoided. I might be persuaded to
move from feh to something like qiv or mirage. Meanwhile, I'll stick
with action0, action1, etc to save and restore a file before it is
manipulated.

-- 
Brian.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[David Wright]

On Thu 25 May 2017 at 12:18:44 (+0100), Brian wrote:
> On Wed 24 May 2017 at 18:57:01 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> 
> > On Wed 24 May 2017 at 17:28:52 (-0500), Michael Milliman wrote:
> > 
> > > I installed and have been using feh as a stop-gap until the Debian
> > > repositories catch up to upstream and/or fix the problem in Stretch.
> > > Been working just fine, with its limitations.  It's better than a black
> > > desktop. :)  I had to read the man page a couple of times and try it
> > > another couple of times to make it work, but work it does.
> > 
> > I prefer to keep feh off my systems; its description is a lie.
> > 
> > feh - image viewer and cataloguer
> > 
> > It's an editor that has no concept of a buffer, but just scribbles
> > over the original file. And, IIRC, the error message, when thwarted
> > by a read-only file, is incorrect: it blames the permissions of
> > the directory, not the file.
> 
> The description is not intended to deceive

It calls itself a viewer, and that is plainly deceptive when
the program irrecoverably modifies the file with one keystroke,
whether deliberate or not.

> and the limited editing
> functions are described in the manual.

One would hope they are. But most viewers I've come across do
not modify the file when carrying out the trivial but vital
operations one would expect to be present: orientation,
flipping etc.

I would also point out that these single dangerous keystrokes
are adjacent to other keys that one might expect to use, and
can use, safely. Eg _ (invert) is next to +, | (flip) is next
(British layout) to both A and Shift itself.

I really can't understand why these particular operations
have been chosen to be in-place; it's grossly incompetent
interface design.

> Scribbling can be avoided
> (Ctrl+2 in the manual):

I wonder whether you realise that's a mouse command. Have you
tried holding down Control, then pressing and holding down
both buttons within the prescribed time constraint, then
trying to move another digit on the touchpad to get anything
resembling a precise rightangle rotation?

No, this is an entirely different function from the flip/invert/
rotate functions one expects in a viewer. Apropos these mouse
commands, what's the mysterious "null button" (first in the list)
that's meant to restore the image?

> https://github.com/derf/feh/issues/86

Oh, I see people agree with me. Depressingly, the < and > commands
are legacy baggage, and derf (flagged as "Owner") says they will
be kept. So, my choice, and it's no feh, period.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Richard Owlett]

On 05/25/2017 06:08 AM, Dejan Jocic wrote:

On 25-05-17, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 05/24/2017 12:26 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 05/20/2017 09:31 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:

[snip]

The bug report also lists a workaround (which I haven't tried).


The workaround is using the feh package to manually set the background
image.  This does work, however, it has to be done each time you
log-in. It is better than nothing.  Upstream also appears to have
a bug reported on it, and they suggest installation of mate-desktop
16.2 with caja 16.3, neither of which has made it to the Debian
distribution as of yet.


Being one who emphatically avoids graphics I found a subtle gotcha.

The man page 
_mentions_ setting wallpaper in passing my noting "Use --no-xinerama to
treat the whole X display as one screen when setting wallpapers."

An example command line to use would be (as a single line):
feh --no-xinerama /usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg

It also does not mention how to set it as the wallpaper ;)
Once the above command has displayed the chosen image:
 1. right-click anywhere in the image
 2. chose File->Background->Set Filled from the displayed menu/sub-menus



If I had read the man page more slowly that using the menu to set the image
as wallpaper was unnecessary. Use:
feh --no-xinerama  --bg-fill
/usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg





It's been a while since I've used feh for background. Anyway, it should
save your choice in .fehbg file. And you should add that file to
autostart, to preserve your background settings.


I'd seen the option on my re-read but due to some other things I'm doing 
chose not to.

Thank you.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Brian]

On Wed 24 May 2017 at 18:57:01 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> On Wed 24 May 2017 at 17:28:52 (-0500), Michael Milliman wrote:
> 
> > I installed and have been using feh as a stop-gap until the Debian
> > repositories catch up to upstream and/or fix the problem in Stretch.
> > Been working just fine, with its limitations.  It's better than a black
> > desktop. :)  I had to read the man page a couple of times and try it
> > another couple of times to make it work, but work it does.
> 
> I prefer to keep feh off my systems; its description is a lie.
> 
> feh - image viewer and cataloguer
> 
> It's an editor that has no concept of a buffer, but just scribbles
> over the original file. And, IIRC, the error message, when thwarted
> by a read-only file, is incorrect: it blames the permissions of
> the directory, not the file.

The description is not intended to deceive and the limited editing
functions are described in the manual. Scribbling can be avoided
(Ctrl+2 in the manual):

https://github.com/derf/feh/issues/86

-- 
Brian.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Dejan Jocic]

On 25-05-17, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 05/24/2017 12:26 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > On 05/20/2017 09:31 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > > > > The bug report also lists a workaround (which I haven't tried).
> > > > > 
> > > The workaround is using the feh package to manually set the background
> > > image.  This does work, however, it has to be done each time you
> > > log-in. It is better than nothing.  Upstream also appears to have
> > > a bug reported on it, and they suggest installation of mate-desktop
> > > 16.2 with caja 16.3, neither of which has made it to the Debian
> > > distribution as of yet.
> > 
> > Being one who emphatically avoids graphics I found a subtle gotcha.
> > 
> > The man page 
> > _mentions_ setting wallpaper in passing my noting "Use --no-xinerama to
> > treat the whole X display as one screen when setting wallpapers."
> > 
> > An example command line to use would be (as a single line):
> > feh --no-xinerama /usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg
> > 
> > It also does not mention how to set it as the wallpaper ;)
> > Once the above command has displayed the chosen image:
> >  1. right-click anywhere in the image
> >  2. chose File->Background->Set Filled from the displayed menu/sub-menus
> > 
> 
> If I had read the man page more slowly that using the menu to set the image
> as wallpaper was unnecessary. Use:
> feh --no-xinerama  --bg-fill
> /usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
It's been a while since I've used feh for background. Anyway, it should
save your choice in .fehbg file. And you should add that file to
autostart, to preserve your background settings.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Richard Owlett]

On 05/24/2017 12:26 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 05/20/2017 09:31 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:

[snip]

The bug report also lists a workaround (which I haven't tried).


The workaround is using the feh package to manually set the background
image.  This does work, however, it has to be done each time you
log-in. It is better than nothing.  Upstream also appears to have
a bug reported on it, and they suggest installation of mate-desktop
16.2 with caja 16.3, neither of which has made it to the Debian
distribution as of yet.


Being one who emphatically avoids graphics I found a subtle gotcha.

The man page 
_mentions_ setting wallpaper in passing my noting "Use --no-xinerama to
treat the whole X display as one screen when setting wallpapers."

An example command line to use would be (as a single line):
feh --no-xinerama /usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg

It also does not mention how to set it as the wallpaper ;)
Once the above command has displayed the chosen image:
 1. right-click anywhere in the image
 2. chose File->Background->Set Filled from the displayed menu/sub-menus



If I had read the man page more slowly that using the menu to set the 
image as wallpaper was unnecessary. Use:
feh --no-xinerama  --bg-fill 
/usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Michael Milliman]

On 05/24/2017 06:57 PM, David Wright wrote:
> On Wed 24 May 2017 at 17:28:52 (-0500), Michael Milliman wrote:
> 
>> I installed and have been using feh as a stop-gap until the Debian
>> repositories catch up to upstream and/or fix the problem in Stretch.
>> Been working just fine, with its limitations.  It's better than a black
>> desktop. :)  I had to read the man page a couple of times and try it
>> another couple of times to make it work, but work it does.
> 
> I prefer to keep feh off my systems; its description is a lie.
> 
> feh - image viewer and cataloguer
> 
> It's an editor that has no concept of a buffer, but just scribbles
> over the original file. And, IIRC, the error message, when thwarted
> by a read-only file, is incorrect: it blames the permissions of
> the directory, not the file.
> 
This is a real problem, and I have no intention of using it for any
other reason than as a temporary fix to the MATE desktop background
issue.  There are much better applications for viewing/editing pictures
(Eye of Gnome/MATE, and GIMP come to mind).  I expect that as soon as
the background issue is resolved, I'll probably remove feh from my
system as well, as it has no other use for me.
> Cheers,
> David.
> 

-- 
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[David Wright]

On Wed 24 May 2017 at 17:28:52 (-0500), Michael Milliman wrote:

> I installed and have been using feh as a stop-gap until the Debian
> repositories catch up to upstream and/or fix the problem in Stretch.
> Been working just fine, with its limitations.  It's better than a black
> desktop. :)  I had to read the man page a couple of times and try it
> another couple of times to make it work, but work it does.

I prefer to keep feh off my systems; its description is a lie.

feh - image viewer and cataloguer

It's an editor that has no concept of a buffer, but just scribbles
over the original file. And, IIRC, the error message, when thwarted
by a read-only file, is incorrect: it blames the permissions of
the directory, not the file.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Michael Milliman]

On 05/24/2017 12:26 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 05/20/2017 09:31 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:
>> [snip]
 The bug report also lists a workaround (which I haven't tried).

>> The workaround is using the feh package to manually set the background
>> image.  This does work, however, it has to be done each time you
>> log-in. It is better than nothing.  Upstream also appears to have
>> a bug reported on it, and they suggest installation of mate-desktop
>> 16.2 with caja 16.3, neither of which has made it to the Debian
>> distribution as of yet.
> 
> Being one who emphatically avoids graphics I found a subtle gotcha.
> 
> The man page 
> _mentions_ setting wallpaper in passing my noting "Use --no-xinerama to
> treat the whole X display as one screen when setting wallpapers."
> 
> An example command line to use would be (as a single line):
> feh --no-xinerama /usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg
> 
> It also does not mention how to set it as the wallpaper ;)
> Once the above command has displayed the chosen image:
>  1. right-click anywhere in the image
>  2. chose File->Background->Set Filled from the displayed menu/sub-menus

I installed and have been using feh as a stop-gap until the Debian
repositories catch up to upstream and/or fix the problem in Stretch.
Been working just fine, with its limitations.  It's better than a black
desktop. :)  I had to read the man page a couple of times and try it
another couple of times to make it work, but work it does.


> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

Clairification - was [Re: Desktop Background Bites the Dust]

[Richard Owlett]

On 05/20/2017 09:31 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:

[snip]

The bug report also lists a workaround (which I haven't tried).


The workaround is using the feh package to manually set the background
image.  This does work, however, it has to be done each time you
log-in. It is better than nothing.  Upstream also appears to have
a bug reported on it, and they suggest installation of mate-desktop
16.2 with caja 16.3, neither of which has made it to the Debian
distribution as of yet.


Being one who emphatically avoids graphics I found a subtle gotcha.

The man page  
_mentions_ setting wallpaper in passing my noting "Use --no-xinerama to 
treat the whole X display as one screen when setting wallpapers."


An example command line to use would be (as a single line):
feh --no-xinerama /usr/share/backgrounds/mate/desktop/GreenTraditional.jpg

It also does not mention how to set it as the wallpaper ;)
Once the above command has displayed the chosen image:
 1. right-click anywhere in the image
 2. chose File->Background->Set Filled from the displayed menu/sub-menus