Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 07:27:17AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> I think the primary use case of debian-user-offtopic would be to
> have a place for people on debian-user to tell others to move
> their threads.

It is technically feasible of course. That's not the bit I'd have
doubts about.

One of the common defences of the abundance of off-topic posting
here is that with proper use of a mail client they are easy to
ignore. I would also suggest that with proper use of a mail client
one can set followups to another place, i.e. the off-topic place. In
such a way, an experienced mail sender could diverge into off-topic
land for one mail but the replies would come to the other place, for
that audience.

What I don't believe though, is there there is any will amongst the
most prolific posters to do this. I think that they have decided
they are entitled to post that stuff here and absent any actual
enforced rule change they will not stop doing so.

It sounds sensible and polite to move the conversation, *if* you
believe that the conversation doesn't belong on debian-user. If you
don't believe that then one person's "sensible and polite" becomes
another's "unacceptably controlling and politically correct attempt
to destroy the community",

So I see a separate off-topic list as doomed to go the same way as
the previous effort, because hardly anyone will use it. I see it as
an easier task to get the support traffic off debian-user to a place
where it can be handled alone, than it would be at this point to get
the off-topic posts off of debian-user.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 9:04 a.m., Jim Popovitch wrote:
> On Thu, 2021-08-19 at 07:23 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> I've been subscribed to this list for a long time and I've seen a
>> change in how it is being used, which I think is harmful to its core
>> purpose
> 
> 100% agree.  I'm another long time subscriber here and this is just
> bonkers lately.  The noise has surpassed the signal for at least the
> last 6 months.  Trying times perhaps, but geeze this is not a good image
> to present to new Debian users.
I totally agree but can't say for the six months as I've been on the
list for only 4 months. One thing I can agree is that it sends a bad
image to new Debian users, even more when we tell  them rudely that they
are going against a specific rule.
Not everyone will take the time to read the FAQ and guidelines entirely
before subscribing. In a ideal world, we'd all read the guidelines, FAQ
and all the documents before joining this list. But it's not what's
happening and it will never be.
Still, this doesn't justify being rude or lacking consideration for new
comers. I've been on mailing list before but that was 10 years ago and
those we're only local ones we created for the university. Some rules
developed by itself.
So when someone told be in a really direct manner and without more
explanation "no top posting", I didn't really understand what he meant
until I did a search for the term. I understood easily what it was,
because we had this rule but hadn't named it, we just explained it.
Yes it's easier when someone ask about "Devuan" to tell him in a quick
say "Go away", but is this really helpful ? I doubt...
What does it take as a time to explain why it may not be the best place
for this question ain't that much. Because this person asked the
question in good faith and we have to respect him. It may be a nice
acronym RTFM but it's far from being polite.
The world has changed and so does the user on this list. Some people may
say "I've been on this list for 20 years, was better before". Yes it was
different before but those are changes that goes with the fact that now
Linux is more democratic. Some distribution made good publicity (I think
of Ubuntu) and this made more people start using Linux, even ones that
weren't system admins or that weren't forced to use a Unix/Linux system
to run some specific application or services. And Debian itself got
easier to use, with a widespread support for most common hardware on the
x86/x64 platform.
Wasn't the goal of all this to get new users to Debian ? Don't we want
as much user as possible to use Debian ? So that they can also test the
software we all use and give us feedback, even discover bugs that didn't
pop up at us ?
We can't expect all those new users to be Cisco certified network
administrator or to have a master degree in computer science, being able
to write in assembly language, C/C++/Fortran and some Lisp too. We have
to accept those new users and remember that we also asked question that
seem stupid for others and we also asked question that the answer we're
in the first page of the manual.
If we can look at ourselves and that's not something that everyone seems
able to do. Or we can join the club of all the people nostalgic of the
soviet union and the 1970s and dream of the cold war but if we do so
then we must also go back using a 1200 baud modem and a teletype.
> 
> -Jim P.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Jim Popovitch]

On Thu, 2021-08-19 at 07:23 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> I've been subscribed to this list for a long time and I've seen a
> change in how it is being used, which I think is harmful to its core
> purpose

100% agree.  I'm another long time subscriber here and this is just
bonkers lately.  The noise has surpassed the signal for at least the
last 6 months.  Trying times perhaps, but geeze this is not a good image
to present to new Debian users.

-Jim P.

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 2:18 a.m., deloptes wrote:
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> You seem pretty good a drawing a line between *good* and *bad*, always
>> putting yourself on the *good* side.
>>
> 
> see this is exactly the attitude I am reffering to. 
> 
>> What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
>> over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
>> giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
>> acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
>> itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.
>>
> 
> You see yourself in a role to correct someone ... typical for leftist with
> moral superiority syndrome.
> 
wow ! you seem really to have your mind sticking somewhere what does
politics has to do with this discussion ?

it's kind of awkward to talk against leftist when this list if for
cooperation and support, all of this without getting anything in return.
you seem a bit upset, is it possible to help you ?

you have something constructive to say ?

other than the fact that you seem to really dislike people who you call
*leftist*, I have serious doubt about your ability to discuss in a
civilized manner without resorting to personal insult.

accusing me of correcting someone and acting like you do is one type of
*laughable irony*
>> That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
>> ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
>> was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...
> 
> This post was totally unnecessary. And this is my problem with you.
> I usually ignore what you write, but as this is in the focus of the
> discussion, I write this only once and "plonk" you. I am sorry for that and
> for you and for your family especially children if you have such.
> 

go ahead and plonk me one more time. feels to me like reading a high
school teenager being pissed off *sorry for your family and children*
that's low level name calling that the only comment I can add... You
must be damn sad if you have all those emotions for everybody around

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 01:34:24AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.


I can't speak for Brian but I've been subscribed to this list for a long
time and I've seen a change in how it is being used, which I think is
harmful to its core purpose, and so I (and others) are trying to find a
way to fix that. With respect, you've only been active here for a very
short while, so you don't have the perspective that others do on the
problem.

People posting off-topic and going off on tangents has always happened.
What has changed is the frequency and duration of those tangents, which
are now drowning out everything else.


That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...


No decision has been made. The people coming here for help and having
their threads diverted with trips down memory lane have not "chosen" for
that to happen.



--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
   https://jmtd.net

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[deloptes]

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> You seem pretty good a drawing a line between *good* and *bad*, always
> putting yourself on the *good* side.
> 

see this is exactly the attitude I am reffering to. 

> What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
> over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
> giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
> acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
> itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.
> 

You see yourself in a role to correct someone ... typical for leftist with
moral superiority syndrome.

> That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
> ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
> was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...

This post was totally unnecessary. And this is my problem with you.
I usually ignore what you write, but as this is in the focus of the
discussion, I write this only once and "plonk" you. I am sorry for that and
for you and for your family especially children if you have such.

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-18 12:57 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Wed 18 Aug 2021 at 14:27:13 +0200, deloptes wrote:
> 
>> Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>>
>>> I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
>>> official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
>>> such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
>>> of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
>>> d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
>>> things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
>>> around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.
>>
>> I do not think it will work, because it is against the logic how
>> communication work. We communicate in the same channel and go off topic and
>> then back to topic. It is not natural to change list because something goes
>> off topic.
> 
> A decent argument. Put with the observation that off-topic in
> a -user thread can rapidly escalate, the idea of a separate 
> "sin-bin" list is a non-starter. Also, it did not work in the
> past.
> 
>> I am also sorry for triggering some of the off topic here, but I am getting
>> annoyed from time to time by peoples attitude as well. There are
>> some "morally superior" users that try to impose their views. However I
>> prefer to stop as soon as possible to reduce the damage. 
>> I hope this list stays as is and people just learn to respect each other
>> (and "plonk" as little as possible).
> 
> I hope so too. There is nothing wrong with some degree of social
> inreraction on the list; it might be said to grease the wheels.
> But think of the user who submits a technical query and those who
> attempt to address it. Would an influx of posts on AA batteries,
> 300 baud modems and short-term memory be seen as being respectful
> to *those* users?
> 
> I am not suggesting that a touch of off-topic should necessarily
> be seen as disrespectful, but as a present campaign in the UK has
> it - Whem the Fun Stops Stop.
> 
> Perhaps, in the final analysis, it doesn't matter. The good ship
> debian-user will continue to naviagte the choppy seas of Community
> assistance and support for Debian users.
> 

You seem pretty good a drawing a line between *good* and *bad*, always
putting yourself on the *good* side.

What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.

That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-17 7:04 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Tue 17 Aug 2021 at 14:56:30 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a 
>> lot 
>> of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.
> 
> Nice? Really? There was one. It failed abysmally in its task. The boys
> and girls post here what they want when they want. 150+ off-topic posts
> in a recent thread, ranging from comments on user behaviour to plonking
> to 300 baud modems. Self-discipline abandonned.
> 
>> Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now 
>> puzzling 
>> over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to power an LED 
>> flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery tested to hold 
>> 120 
>> maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can that possibly be?  (I'd 
>> give a few more details if I was actually askinjg the question on that off-
>> topic mail list.
> 
> This paragrapgh illustrates my point. Something is suggested then taken
> immediately off-topic. All in the space of a single mail. There isn't
> any solution. Lie back and think of Debian :).
> 
There's always the solution that if you ain't happy then create your own
community with moderated mailing list. If not, then enjoy what's offered
here and try to be positive.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Brian]

On Wed 18 Aug 2021 at 14:27:13 +0200, deloptes wrote:

> Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> 
> > I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
> > official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
> > such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
> > of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
> > d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
> > things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
> > around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.
> 
> I do not think it will work, because it is against the logic how
> communication work. We communicate in the same channel and go off topic and
> then back to topic. It is not natural to change list because something goes
> off topic.

A decent argument. Put with the observation that off-topic in
a -user thread can rapidly escalate, the idea of a separate 
"sin-bin" list is a non-starter. Also, it did not work in the
past.

> I am also sorry for triggering some of the off topic here, but I am getting
> annoyed from time to time by peoples attitude as well. There are
> some "morally superior" users that try to impose their views. However I
> prefer to stop as soon as possible to reduce the damage. 
> I hope this list stays as is and people just learn to respect each other
> (and "plonk" as little as possible).

I hope so too. There is nothing wrong with some degree of social
inreraction on the list; it might be said to grease the wheels.
But think of the user who submits a technical query and those who
attempt to address it. Would an influx of posts on AA batteries,
300 baud modems and short-term memory be seen as being respectful
to *those* users?

I am not suggesting that a touch of off-topic should necessarily
be seen as disrespectful, but as a present campaign in the UK has
it - Whem the Fun Stops Stop.

Perhaps, in the final analysis, it doesn't matter. The good ship
debian-user will continue to naviagte the choppy seas of Community
assistance and support for Debian users.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[deloptes]

Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
> official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
> such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
> of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
> d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
> things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
> around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.

I do not think it will work, because it is against the logic how
communication work. We communicate in the same channel and go off topic and
then back to topic. It is not natural to change list because something goes
off topic.
I am also sorry for triggering some of the off topic here, but I am getting
annoyed from time to time by peoples attitude as well. There are
some "morally superior" users that try to impose their views. However I
prefer to stop as soon as possible to reduce the damage. 
I hope this list stays as is and people just learn to respect each other
(and "plonk" as little as possible).


-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[rhkramer]

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 07:27:17 AM Dan Ritter wrote:
> I think the primary use case of debian-user-offtopic would be to
> have a place for people on debian-user to tell others to move
> their threads.

That sounds like a useful thing -- somebody could point out that a post is off-
topic and request that the OP (and responders) move the discussion there 
(including the original post).

(Or, of course, ideally the poster would recognize that a subject was off topic 
and post it to that list right from the start.)

> Would it thrive independently of that? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps
> more so if all the subscribers of debian-user were automatically
> subscribed to debian-user-offtopic, and had to unsubscribe
> manually.

I like that idea also.  

Maybe also add a short blurb at the bottom of debian-user (like the 
unsubscribe blurb -- oh, wait, on this list that is in the headers and not 
immediately visible in my email client (List-Unsubscribe: ) -- I think it would take 
something more visible.

People who are willing to "consider" off topic questions could remain 
subscribed, people who wanted no part of off topic discussions could 
unsubscribe.

Hmm, not sure the idea is ready for prime time, but maybe still worth 
discussing / considering.,,

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Dan Ritter]

Jonathan Dowland wrote: 
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 02:56:30PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a 
> > lot
> > of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.
> 
> I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
> official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
> such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
> of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
> d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
> things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
> around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.

I don't think that's causal.

I think the primary use case of debian-user-offtopic would be to
have a place for people on debian-user to tell others to move
their threads.

Would it thrive independently of that? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps
more so if all the subscribers of debian-user were automatically
subscribed to debian-user-offtopic, and had to unsubscribe
manually.

-dsr-

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 02:56:30PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a lot
of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.


I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.



--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
   https://jmtd.net

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Brian]

On Tue 17 Aug 2021 at 14:56:30 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

> Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a 
> lot 
> of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.

Nice? Really? There was one. It failed abysmally in its task. The boys
and girls post here what they want when they want. 150+ off-topic posts
in a recent thread, ranging from comments on user behaviour to plonking
to 300 baud modems. Self-discipline abandonned.

> Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now 
> puzzling 
> over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to power an LED 
> flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery tested to hold 120 
> maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can that possibly be?  (I'd 
> give a few more details if I was actually askinjg the question on that off-
> topic mail list.

This paragrapgh illustrates my point. Something is suggested then taken
immediately off-topic. All in the space of a single mail. There isn't
any solution. Lie back and think of Debian :).

-- 
Brian.

-- 
Brian.

Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[rhkramer]

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 10:54:34 AM SDA wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 03:01:43PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 08:26:34AM -0400, SDA wrote:
> > > BTW there has been an off-topic list introduced by a community member,
> > > but it seems has had little uptake.
> > 
> > I looked into this the other day, because I hadn't seen reference to it
> > for a while. It was called d-community-offtopic; it was hosted on the
> > Alioth server, and I think its eventual demise was when Alioth was
> > turned off in around 2018.
> > 
> > The last non-spam message to it was, I think, in 2016. The archives are
> > here:
> > 
> > https://alioth-lists-archive.debian.net/pipermail/d-community-offtopic.mb
> > ox/
> 
> Thanks for the update Jonathan.

Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a lot 
of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.

Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now puzzling 
over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to power an LED 
flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery tested to hold 120 
maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can that possibly be?  (I'd 
give a few more details if I was actually askinjg the question on that off-
topic mail list.

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[SDA]

On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 03:01:43PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 08:26:34AM -0400, SDA wrote:
> > BTW there has been an off-topic list introduced by a community member,
> > but it seems has had little uptake.
> 
> I looked into this the other day, because I hadn't seen reference to it
> for a while. It was called d-community-offtopic; it was hosted on the
> Alioth server, and I think its eventual demise was when Alioth was
> turned off in around 2018.
> 
> The last non-spam message to it was, I think, in 2016. The archives are
> here:
> 
> https://alioth-lists-archive.debian.net/pipermail/d-community-offtopic.mbox/
>
Thanks for the update Jonathan.

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 08:26:34AM -0400, SDA wrote:

BTW there has been an off-topic list introduced by a community member,
but it seems has had little uptake.


I looked into this the other day, because I hadn't seen reference to it
for a while. It was called d-community-offtopic; it was hosted on the
Alioth server, and I think its eventual demise was when Alioth was
turned off in around 2018.

The last non-spam message to it was, I think, in 2016. The archives are
here:

https://alioth-lists-archive.debian.net/pipermail/d-community-offtopic.mbox/


--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
   https://jmtd.net

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[SDA]

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 06:05:58PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> I'm afraid this conversation is a waste of time.
> The goal posts are moved around at convenience, rather in than any
> serious manner at resolving an issue that is minor, if even existent.
> Cheers!
> 
> Harry.

Oh it exists Harry! I've been on this list (usually lurking) for almost
20 years. The off topic posts often go on to enormous lengths often
withouit a subject change (which itself is problematic). Way too much
noise to signal ration lately, and it's often a handful of users who
think this is their debate club.
I'm for this being an on topic user support list and that posters/users
that want to talk off topic be sanctioned appropriately. This list
through the eyes of a beginner wanting help has been atrocius lately.
Can you imagine trying to search for a given subject through the
archives and having to wade through all the noise in these mega threads
in case something relevant is in them? Ridicoulous.

BTW there has been an off-topic list introduced by a community member,
but it seems has had little uptake.

So I agree completely with Andy Smith's (and others) statements and
support this list being actively monitored for such off topic breaches.
It would make the list what it's supposed to be, and make the archives
better quality when searching for terms.

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Tue, Aug 10, 2021 at 09:12:08PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> On 2021-08-09 9:37 p.m., Andy Smith wrote:
> > I'm sorry you feel that way. It has felt quite frustrating having to
> > repeat myself when I thought I was being clear about what I meant.
> I think it would be hard to express yourself better than what you always
> do in all the messages you sent, the "moderation" you do and the fire
> you extinguish.

I think you've possibly mistaken me for Andy Cater who posts the
monthly conduct reminder thing.

I thought I better correct this as it would be wrong for me to take
credit for moderating and extinguishing that I don't think I've
done, as well as to possibly associate Andy Cater with my suggestion
of not doing support stuff on debian-user.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

> The optimum programming team size is 1.
Has Jurassic Park taught us nothing? — pfilandr

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-09 9:37 p.m., Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 06:05:58PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
>>> So that's where I think the problems are and why I think it would be
>>> good to try separating the user support from the debate club.
>>
>> I'm afraid this conversation is a waste of time.
> 
Great proof of being open-minded when you consider a conversation "a
waste of time" because you ain't able to convince someone or make them
change their mind.

A bit of irony for someone hoping to make this a better place, with a
more inclusive toward beginner approach.

> I'm sorry you feel that way. It has felt quite frustrating having to
> repeat myself when I thought I was being clear about what I meant.
I think it would be hard to express yourself better than what you always
do in all the messages you sent, the "moderation" you do and the fire
you extinguish.

> But, I do believe that at least you have got across how you see the
> purpose and nature of debian-user, so we have at least seen some
> more perspectives - thanks!
> 
> My last reply was sent before I saw this one, and is not an attempt
> to prolong a conversation that you don't want to have.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 

Thanks Andy for the great work you do.
Thanks for the times you reminded myself, in a polite manner, that I may
have went off track with the words I used.

Sincerely,

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Tue, Aug 10, 2021 at 02:51:02AM +0200, Linux-Fan wrote:
> I think that switching support over to a different medium i.e. from e-
> mail to Q will see a different sort of user participating.
> Hence, the "community" one would find on the Q site is not there yet. This
> explains why it would not be used much (initially) even if there was a lot
> of advertisement.

If we are talking about the pool of people asking the questions and
answering them, I'm not sure that so many would be left behind. I do
get the impression that those new to Linux do feel pretty
comfortable on web sites and less so on email lists. I actually know
a lot of people in their 20s and 30s now who don't really have an
email address, only for use as credentials on web sites!

I don't want to harp on about it but Ask Ubuntu does some good
numbers on daily answers marked solved. Also I've spotted quite a
few names from here on some of those Stack sites. :-)

If the new people don't actually know the thing exists it won't get
used though.

The other kind of participant, who's here mainly for debate, will I
guess still be here debating. Which I don't see as a problem.

> As far as I can tell, Debian's development communication mostly uses e-mail
> (for bugs, mailing lists, announcements) and IRC (for real-time
> communication e.g. release testing). Hence it seems only natural that e-mail
> and IRC would be the primary means to ask for help, too. The idea behind
> this is (in theory?) that the developers use the same means of communication
> as the users.

The first thing I would say to that though is that all those places
have much more rigidly defined topics than here. I don't know about
IRC, but I'm in many of those other places and off-topicness isn't
much of a problem there. Neither do they tend to see an influx of
low experience new users.

For discussion, email is king, I'm with you there, never do get on
well with web forums. I really like to see topics enforced though.

It's interesting that even in the extremely technical community of
Linux kernel development, there is increasing call for patch
submission and management by web interface rather than email:

https://lwn.net/Articles/811528/
https://lwn.net/Articles/860607/

(I mention this only as an aside and don't see it as really relevant
when talking about user support.)

> Where does the notion that the mailing list is the primary support channel
> stem from?

Personally I see people being pointed to it all the time when they
ask user-level questions in some other Debian email space.

I've been on IRC since 1995 but I don't hang around in any of the
mainstream Debian channels so I'm not aware of what they're like.

I can well imagine that someone looking for assistance does a search
and finds https://www.debian.org/support where the first part talks
about a thing that seems obscure and requires software they probably
never used before. The next one down is email, and everyone's heard
of email even if they only use it to log in to Netflix.

> I even tried out Reddit for a few weeks but noticing how much data they
> collect just by my clicks on up/down and choice of topics to read is quite a
> revelation. Both, mailing-lists and IRC are in a way more public that
> everything one sends is published for all to read but also more private in
> that what one does not intend to send (which messages I read and how long I
> take for it for instance) stays private.

I do think it is important for Debian to self-host where it can. The
privacy aspect is critical as so many third party web services are
primarily about selling the users' personal data and their activity
than the actual service they purport to provide.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 06:05:58PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> > So that's where I think the problems are and why I think it would be
> > good to try separating the user support from the debate club.
> 
> I'm afraid this conversation is a waste of time.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It has felt quite frustrating having to
repeat myself when I thought I was being clear about what I meant.
But, I do believe that at least you have got across how you see the
purpose and nature of debian-user, so we have at least seen some
more perspectives - thanks!

My last reply was sent before I saw this one, and is not an attempt
to prolong a conversation that you don't want to have.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 04:22:46PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> On 10-08-2021 09:01, Andy Smith wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 10:19:19PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> >> I am asking the Debian Project to can this list in favour of an
> >> alternate solution or else to make it strictly for Debian-related
> >> posts only.
> > 
> > I want to walk this one back a bit as there's no need to destroy the
> > community that exists here already by forcing it to move elsewhere.
> 
> Oh, I don't think you'll achieve that.

Just wanted to clarify that it isn't something that I want to see
happen.

> > What I meant to say is that I think it'd be best if debian-user
> > continue to exist as it is while having its support element covered
> > by some other thing, and that be consistently documented throughout
> > Debian's documentation and websites wherever debian-user currently
> > is pointed to.
> 
> By all means, if you see that as desirable, go ahead and initiate it.
> If things are a little quiet, you'll find us here.

I did mention that the Stack site idea, although it has been partially
tried out at least two times by various Debian Developers, had no
success and would not see success without a concerted effort by the
project to direct users there.

Clearly I'm not in a position to go editing Debian's web sites. I'm
guessing any such wiki edit would get reverted if it tried to
suggest something as being preferable to debian-user, so I'm not in
a position to do more than suggest.

I have tried to help out those last two times there was an Stack
site thing launched though, so if any DD does so again I will try
again with you.

> I'm sorry, but I find it extremely difficult to equate the term
> `community' with that of `rigid, militant conformity'.

If you take discussion lists like debian-devel or debian-project as
examples, these are places that have a much more rigid definition of
topic than debian-user, and yet are also community spaces.

Occasionally posters get very off-topic on debian-project for
example and are told, on-list, to restrict their posting to being
about the Debian project. No one seems to find this to be militant
conformity. The posters tend to obey.

I find debian-user to be quite rare amongst Debian spaces in the
lack of its topic focus. I know that it has always been like that, I
just don't think that works well for the support aspect.

Again going back to Ask Ubuntu — mainly because it's both a Stack
site and a Debian derivative so being a support venue answering
questions much like we do here on debian-user — you couldn't really
say it is an community in and of itself. I expect there are
forum-like sections of it for those so inclined but I've never
wanted to look into that. While it is a part of the Ubuntu community
and covered by the same code of conduct etc., community is not
really evident or emphasised there and I don't think that it needs
to be, for that narrow purpose.

I think I've made a mistake in not being clear that I would suggest
taking the support element out of debian-user and then apply the
rigid rules to wherever that went, leaving debian-user as it is.
Instead I've talked like debian-user should be shut down and
re-opened in a completely different manner. I can see how that could
ruffle feathers and it was unintentional.

> I should respectfully suggest that this list be employed after all
> of them have been exhausted for an answer. Post your question,
> after checking the archives, and follow only that thread in order
> to avoid all the other aspects you see as undesirable.
> In this way, I believe any injury to your sensibilities can be easily
> avoided.

Do you see this as advice that belongs on the Debian web site next
to any directions towards debian-user? Just so the users are clear
what sort of experience awaits them?

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Weaver]

On 10-08-2021 10:59, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 04:06:43PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
>> On 10-08-2021 07:54, Andy Smith wrote:
>> > I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads
>> > that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to
>> > find; there's just so many of them.
>>
>> That wasn't the point. I pointed out an over dramatisation of the
>> situation is not conducive to the sort of accurate pre-analytical stage
>> required in order to specify a problem in order to deal with it
>> accurately.
>> Your answer to that is to specify `ridiculously off-topic threads'.
> 
> I'm saying that the number of off-topics posts here is often well in
> excess of the number of on-topic ones, and that I think it isn't
> conducive to user support.
> 
> And by "off-topic" I'm not talking about just replying in a
> conversational tone, or asking for clarifications, or suggesting
> other solutions or anything like that. I mean posts that become
> totally unrelated to Debian and its use.
> 
> For the purposes of this conversation I do think these are easy to
> spot. I do understand that you feel these aren't an issue. I'm just
> saying why I don't think there's a need to specifically call these
> out right now.
> 
>> Is there to be a rigorous deletion of anything  not Debian related
>> within each email?
> 
> I think it would be best if such things were not posted here, yes,
> not while this is the support venue.
> 
>> Is there to be no polite, courteous format, simply because it's not
>> `Debian-related'?
> 
> I would really have hoped that it would be obvious that I'm not
> asking for people to be impolite or discourteous; that I'm not
> talking about normal conversational responses to support queries
> being banned.
> 
> I'm talking about things that have drifted completely away from
> being about Debian.
> 
>> Things can get just a little too rigid, on the way to creating a total
>> lack of community that nobody wants to be a part of.
>>
>> > I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current
>> > situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do
>> > think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my
>> > opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for.
>>
>> And who isn't?
> 
> Well, this bit was in response to you saying, "if there's a problem
> that requires resolution…" so was just me reiterating that I do
> think there is, but that I do understand that plenty of people don't
> think there is. i.e. this has not just come out of nowhere.
> 
>> > Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through
>> > tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a
>> > better experience both for the question asker and later researchers
>> > who come across it.
>>
>> No, the rudeness is jumped on by members of the community more than
>> `moderators'.
>> The format changes nothing.
> 
> I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. When I said
> "moderated" here, I meant by the people doing the moderation,
> which on a Stack site is mostly the community.
> 
> I do find that quite effective in making poor answers and disruptive
> comments less visible on such sites, so I can't agree that the
> format changes nothing.
> 
>> You might see one interjection as rude and unnecessary, while I might
>> see it as a required ingredient in placing a clown in their place.
> 
> The idea that it would be necessary to put a clown in their place
> publicly and with the same visibility as other posts in the thread
> is something that feels to me most toxic in a support environment.
> 
> We've all been there - someone posts a silly, inadvisable,
> ill-thought out or downright incorrect response to a support
> question. One feels compelled to post a correction. Hopefully one
> manages to do so without being overly offensive or cruel, but
> putting a clown in their place can go that way sometimes. It's good
> that the correction was delivered, less so if it ended up being
> delivered in an offensive way, but even after that, the correction
> just has the weight of one email in a thread.
> 
> Often times, the worst clowns are convinced they aren't clowns at
> all. They will double down on their wrongness, and they can post
> just as often as you can.
> 
> A lot of the time it needs experienced users to spot what is a
> good answer (or good advice) and what is bad. It doesn't work so
> well to go by who delivers the most devastating come-back or who
> hammers their point home most forcefully or most often.
> 
> The Stack sites I frequent do seem to benefit from poor quality
> answers and comments being moderated away. People can still engage
> in back and forth conflict but what most people consider to be the
> best answers float to the top. There isn't much need to place clowns
> in their place for all to see and I think the support experience is
> better for it.
> 
>> > There are good reasons why most 

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 04:06:43PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> On 10-08-2021 07:54, Andy Smith wrote:
> > I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads
> > that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to
> > find; there's just so many of them.
> 
> That wasn't the point. I pointed out an over dramatisation of the
> situation is not conducive to the sort of accurate pre-analytical stage
> required in order to specify a problem in order to deal with it
> accurately.
> Your answer to that is to specify `ridiculously off-topic threads'.

I'm saying that the number of off-topics posts here is often well in
excess of the number of on-topic ones, and that I think it isn't
conducive to user support.

And by "off-topic" I'm not talking about just replying in a
conversational tone, or asking for clarifications, or suggesting
other solutions or anything like that. I mean posts that become
totally unrelated to Debian and its use.

For the purposes of this conversation I do think these are easy to
spot. I do understand that you feel these aren't an issue. I'm just
saying why I don't think there's a need to specifically call these
out right now.

> Is there to be a rigorous deletion of anything  not Debian related
> within each email?

I think it would be best if such things were not posted here, yes,
not while this is the support venue.

> Is there to be no polite, courteous format, simply because it's not
> `Debian-related'?

I would really have hoped that it would be obvious that I'm not
asking for people to be impolite or discourteous; that I'm not
talking about normal conversational responses to support queries
being banned.

I'm talking about things that have drifted completely away from
being about Debian.

> Things can get just a little too rigid, on the way to creating a total
> lack of community that nobody wants to be a part of.
> 
> > I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current
> > situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do
> > think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my
> > opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for.
> 
> And who isn't?

Well, this bit was in response to you saying, "if there's a problem
that requires resolution…" so was just me reiterating that I do
think there is, but that I do understand that plenty of people don't
think there is. i.e. this has not just come out of nowhere.

> > Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through
> > tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a
> > better experience both for the question asker and later researchers
> > who come across it.
> 
> No, the rudeness is jumped on by members of the community more than
> `moderators'.
> The format changes nothing.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. When I said
"moderated" here, I meant by the people doing the moderation,
which on a Stack site is mostly the community.

I do find that quite effective in making poor answers and disruptive
comments less visible on such sites, so I can't agree that the
format changes nothing.

> You might see one interjection as rude and unnecessary, while I might
> see it as a required ingredient in placing a clown in their place.

The idea that it would be necessary to put a clown in their place
publicly and with the same visibility as other posts in the thread
is something that feels to me most toxic in a support environment.

We've all been there - someone posts a silly, inadvisable,
ill-thought out or downright incorrect response to a support
question. One feels compelled to post a correction. Hopefully one
manages to do so without being overly offensive or cruel, but
putting a clown in their place can go that way sometimes. It's good
that the correction was delivered, less so if it ended up being
delivered in an offensive way, but even after that, the correction
just has the weight of one email in a thread.

Often times, the worst clowns are convinced they aren't clowns at
all. They will double down on their wrongness, and they can post
just as often as you can.

A lot of the time it needs experienced users to spot what is a
good answer (or good advice) and what is bad. It doesn't work so
well to go by who delivers the most devastating come-back or who
hammers their point home most forcefully or most often.

The Stack sites I frequent do seem to benefit from poor quality
answers and comments being moderated away. People can still engage
in back and forth conflict but what most people consider to be the
best answers float to the top. There isn't much need to place clowns
in their place for all to see and I think the support experience is
better for it.

> > There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a
> > search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack
> > Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists.
> 
> Quite often that's the case, and so it should be.

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Linux-Fan]

Andy Smith writes:


Hello,

On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:35:15AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> any ideas on how to make the situation better?

To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue
for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a
Stack Overflow-like site. The chief advantages of such sites are
that posted problems are narrowed down to contain the required
information, and answers are ranked so as to make poor answers (and
ultimately, disruptive posters) disappear. Ask Ubuntu. I think,
works well.


The primary disadvantage of Q sites from my limited experience with  
StackOverflow is that they often fail to recognize XY-problems. Debian-user  
is pretty good at helping people to re-phrase their question to actually  
arrive at and solve the underlying question. I have seen numerous Q  
where the immediate problem was answered but the solution was convoluted,  
insecure or in some other way dissatisfying and that mostly because the  
initial question was not open enough to allow for the technically correct  
answer to be given.



There have been a few attempts to set up such sites for Debian, so


[...]


The previous attempts have sort of started as an announcement that
such a site is available, but not followed up by any level of
advertising on Debian's web site. The announcement threads on the
mailing lists then got dominated by arguments from the same small
group of people loudly and repeatedly arguing how they would never
use or support such a thing. That's fine, but without a way to
continually advertise a site as a support venue, it will not get
used.


A classic chicken-egg problem :)

Also, I think that switching support over to a different medium i.e. from e- 
mail to Q will see a different sort of user participating. Hence,  
the "community" one would find on the Q site is not there yet. This  
explains why it would not be used much (initially) even if there was a lot  
of advertisement.


[...]


So in summary, I don't think any of the things that would be
necessary to improve the way this list works are going to be popular
with the regular posters, while starting over with a different
solution requires consensus and support from the Debian project that
has up until now not been there.


As far as I can tell, Debian's development communication mostly uses e-mail  
(for bugs, mailing lists, announcements) and IRC (for real-time  
communication e.g. release testing). Hence it seems only natural that e-mail  
and IRC would be the primary means to ask for help, too. The idea behind  
this is (in theory?) that the developers use the same means of communication  
as the users.


Whether the combination of IRC+e-mail is still “up to date” with practices  
from younger free software projects can still be debated. I have read  
articles claiming that participating in Linux kernel development is  
hard because they are not tracking their development using Github issues  
whereas most other projects today are easily reachable this way. The same  
principle could possibly be applied to Debian development, too.


Btw. as of today, at least three types of support channels are advertised:
https://www.debian.org/support

In that order (not sure if it is related to priority?):
IRC, Mailing lists, Forums

Where does the notion that the mailing list is the primary support channel  
stem from?


~ ~ ~

There are some unlisted discussion and support channels, too.
A community where one can vote up and down:

https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/

I even tried out Reddit for a few weeks but noticing how much data they  
collect just by my clicks on up/down and choice of topics to read is quite  
a revelation. Both, mailing-lists and IRC are in a way more public that  
everything one sends is published for all to read but also more private in  
that what one does not intend to send (which messages I read and how long I  
take for it for instance) stays private.


HTH
Linux-Fan

öö

[...]


pgpKvreXwIXey.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Weaver]

On 10-08-2021 09:01, Andy Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 10:19:19PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
>> I am asking the Debian Project to can this list in favour of an
>> alternate solution or else to make it strictly for Debian-related
>> posts only.
> 
> I want to walk this one back a bit as there's no need to destroy the
> community that exists here already by forcing it to move elsewhere.

Oh, I don't think you'll achieve that.
Please be comforted!

> What I meant to say is that I think it'd be best if debian-user
> continue to exist as it is while having its support element covered
> by some other thing, and that be consistently documented throughout
> Debian's documentation and websites wherever debian-user currently
> is pointed to.

By all means, if you see that as desirable, go ahead and initiate it.
If things are a little quiet, you'll find us here.

> As mentioned, ideally I would see that support function served by a
> Stack Overflow-like web site as I think those are easier to keep
> focused for question-answer purposes. However if a mailing list
> absolutely had to be used then it should be understood that posts
> not related to Debian would not be welcome, and for that to be
> enforced.

Would AK-47s be required?
I'm sorry, but I find it extremely difficult to equate the term
`community' with that of `rigid, militant conformity'.
What you are looking for is already available in the Debian-User
Handbook, the Debian Reference, the Ref-Card, and any number of other
sources. This list is adjunct to all of that, as well as any number of
other resources. And, I should respectfully suggest that this list be
employed after all of them have been exhausted for an answer. Post your
question, after checking the archives, and follow only that thread in
order to avoid all the other aspects you see as undesirable.
In this way, I believe any injury to your sensibilities can be easily
avoided.
Cheers!

Harry.

-- 
`Unthinking respect for authority is 
the greatest enemy of truth'.
-- Albert Einstein

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Weaver]

On 10-08-2021 07:54, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 05:01:50PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
>> On 09-08-2021 07:33, Andy Smith wrote:
>> > A lack of politeness isn't really debian-user's biggest problem. I
>> > think debian-user's biggest problem is the lack of restraint
>> > prolific posters have on posting every thought that comes into their
>> > heads and debating such into the ground.
>>
>> We all have our perceptions.
>> This would appear to be an overly dramatic one.
>> `posting every thought that comes into their
>> > heads and debating such into the ground' - really?
>> If there's a problem requiring resolution, I think it might pay to be
>> more concise than that.
> 
> I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads
> that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to
> find; there's just so many of them.

That wasn't the point. I pointed out an over dramatisation of the
situation is not conducive to the sort of accurate pre-analytical stage
required in order to specify a problem in order to deal with it
accurately.
Your answer to that is to specify `ridiculously off-topic threads'.
 
> If you can't see this then I just have to assume that you don't find
> the current situation to be a problem, in which case I don't know
> how to convince you that there's a problem. It doesn't seem like me
> listing out sub-threads that have departed far from anything
> Debian-related would convince you, and would probably only serve to
> feel like an attack on individual posters.

There may be any number of threads that do not meet your parameters of
`Debian-related'.
That doesn't mean they have no relevant standing in the situation.
Is there to be a rigorous deletion of anything  not Debian related
within each email?
Is there to be no polite, courteous format, simply because it's not
`Debian-related'?
Things can get just a little too rigid, on the way to creating a total
lack of community that nobody wants to be a part of.

> I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current
> situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do
> think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my
> opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for.

And who isn't?

>> > That sort of thing is not really possible on a question-answer site
>> > as conciseness is rewarded in both question and answer.
>>
>> Not in the reality I inhabit.
>> I'm a member of a couple of stack overflow sites, and I have witnessed many a
>> humorous aside and any number of examples of downright rudeness.
> 
> Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through
> tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a
> better experience both for the question asker and later researchers
> who come across it.

No, the rudeness is jumped on by members of the community more than
`moderators'.
The format changes nothing.
Where you get a focal point of communication interaction, you wll always
have both positive and negative interaction, determining which is which
very much a thing of individual perception.
You might see one interjection as rude and unnecessary, while I might
see it as a required ingredient in placing a clown in their place.
You can't stop social interaction unless you are a member of the android
demographic.

> By contrast on a mailing list like this it's about who shouts
> loudest and most often, 

For exaple, you might see that point as relevant, while I see it as a
prime example of prevarication in an attempt to achieve a personal,
preferred aim at the expense of the group.

> and that's even before the posts start
> appearing that are not even about Debian at all.

Debian is open source.
It's a product of community.
It's strength comes from that.
I should not like to see it stifled.
Many different kinds of personalities contribute to it, as well as the
accepted standards of any number of traditions and cultures.
If you think the situation is not good now, you should have been around
then.
The flame wars were devastating, and I can recall one senior developer
stating the list was unusable, at one stage, and he was right.
But then the issue got sorted and things got back to normal.
 
> There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a
> search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack
> Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists.

Quite often that's the case, and so it should be.
Keeping resources to just one would have to be as much of a definition
of mental laziness as any other.
That should be happening before turning to the list for an answer from
another user.

>> There is also an extremely efficient means of weeding out those
>> conversations an individual sees as not necessary for their immediate
>> notice, or downright unnecessary, and ones they see as beng answerable -
>> within ther capability - and of interest. Personally, that takes me all
>> of 5 

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 10:19:19PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> I am asking the Debian Project to can this list in favour of an
> alternate solution or else to make it strictly for Debian-related
> posts only.

I want to walk this one back a bit as there's no need to destroy the
community that exists here already by forcing it to move elsewhere.

What I meant to say is that I think it'd be best if debian-user
continue to exist as it is while having its support element covered
by some other thing, and that be consistently documented throughout
Debian's documentation and websites wherever debian-user currently
is pointed to.

As mentioned, ideally I would see that support function served by a
Stack Overflow-like web site as I think those are easier to keep
focused for question-answer purposes. However if a mailing list
absolutely had to be used then it should be understood that posts
not related to Debian would not be welcome, and for that to be
enforced.

Thanks,
Andy

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 07:26:50AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 09:33:02PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > My only suggestion was a Stack Overflow-style question-answer site.
> > Those aren't discussion forums.
> 
> Two things: (a) SO is a commercial site. It has paid staff.

In my first post in this thread I did point out that it would be
better done in project-hosted DFSG-free service and that it has
already been tried at least twice by Debian and failed due to lack
of use.

If your point here is "who's going to do the work?" Well, most of
the moderation work on such sites is done by the people using the
sites.

Personally speaking I'd much rather have the option to -1 a totally
off-topic response than have to just ctrl-r to mark read a whole
sub-thread of nonsense when it only benefits me to do so.

> in such an unstructured medium, some self-imposed rules
> may help.

If people were able to impose them, yes. But here we are.

> See, for example Andrew's regular posts. This isn't anything
> "imposed from above" -- he went around here asking for ideas, etc.

Andrew does have perceived authority as a Debian Developer.

I agree that Andrew's posts serve as a good reminder of how things
should be.

> You could do that.

I am doing that: I am asking the Debian Project to can this list in
favour of an alternate solution or else to make it strictly for
Debian-related posts only.

I've already said that I think there will be too much opposition to
that suggestion, so I don't expect to see it happen. But you did
ask.

Self-restraint isn't working.

> > Have a look at https://askubuntu.com/ to get some sort of idea,
> > since that is at least a Debian derivative. But as I said, it has
> > been tried before and I think won't/can't succeed without buy-in
> > from the project.
> 
> That's not my kind of discussion forum. I come across them through
> web searches, that's all the interaction I have there.

Yes, that is exactly my point in showing it to you. You have
correctly deduced that it is not a discussion site, mostly just
provide answers to your questions, and you have benefited from
finding those answers yourself.

You have also correctly seen my suggestion that Debian's primary
support venue should not have much interaction outside of problem
solving.

Those were my exact reasons for bringing up Ask Ubuntu.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be discussion and debate around
Debian (although I struggle to see why anyone would want to bring in
non-Debian topics even there). I'm just saying that the main place
for users to get support shouldn't be where that is expected to
happen.

> > > I feel we aren't doing that bad, considering the volume.
> > 
> > It is perhaps not so bad for a general Debian community discussion
> > group,
> 
> which is what it is

Yes, that's what it is right now, but you asked what could be
changed and I have suggested what I think should be changed about
Debian's primary user support venue. That it should not also be a
general Debian community discussion group.

> > where you would go into it thinking that pretty much anything
> > goes, but the fact is that this is Debian's primary support venue
> > for users new and old.
> 
> TBH, I've seen many people here finding answers to their questions.

I've not argued that zero people are helped. You created this
sub-thread in response to someone [else] who said that there was too
much off-topic posting here.

> > I don't think that both audiences can be catered for in the same
> > place and I really think that we could and should do better.
> 
> Feel free :)

Self-restraint isn't working.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 05:01:50PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> On 09-08-2021 07:33, Andy Smith wrote:
> > A lack of politeness isn't really debian-user's biggest problem. I
> > think debian-user's biggest problem is the lack of restraint
> > prolific posters have on posting every thought that comes into their
> > heads and debating such into the ground.
> 
> We all have our perceptions.
> This would appear to be an overly dramatic one.
> `posting every thought that comes into their
> > heads and debating such into the ground' - really?
> If there's a problem requiring resolution, I think it might pay to be
> more concise than that.

I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads
that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to
find; there's just so many of them.

If you can't see this then I just have to assume that you don't find
the current situation to be a problem, in which case I don't know
how to convince you that there's a problem. It doesn't seem like me
listing out sub-threads that have departed far from anything
Debian-related would convince you, and would probably only serve to
feel like an attack on individual posters.

I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current
situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do
think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my
opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for.

> > That sort of thing is not really possible on a question-answer site
> > as conciseness is rewarded in both question and answer.
> 
> Not in the reality I inhabit.
> I'm a member of a couple of stack sires, and I have witnessed many a
> humorous aside and any number of examples of downright rudeness.

Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through
tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a
better experience both for the question asker and later researchers
who come across it.

By contrast on a mailing list like this it's about who shouts
loudest and most often, and that's even before the posts start
appearing that are not even about Debian at all.

There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a
search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack
Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists.

> There is also an extremely efficient means of weeding out those
> conversations an individual sees as not necessary for their immediate
> notice, or downright unnecessary, and ones they see as beng answerable -
> within ther capability - and of interest. Personally, that takes me all
> of 5 seconds.

New users can't do this. Of course they can be taught but that is a
huge impediment to getting their problems solved.

People coming by later to find answers also still have to sift
through it all.

It seems really odd to take the position that the primary venue for
user support must be drowned in content that is not about use of
Debian, because anyone who isn't interested in that can just filter
it away.

> > Off-topic discussion is specifically something which I suggest there
> > is too much of here.
> 
> It depends on what you see as `off-topic'. Your view is yours, and not
> necessarily everybody's.
> Do you see the value in discussion, yet?

I get that everyone has different opinions about what this list is
for. I think I'm being pretty clear in expressing the opinion that
it is for user support, not general debate. It's not a problem when
there's a slight amount of debate around the problems and solutions.
It is a problem when threads shift entirely away from the use of
Debian. Again, I really don't want to have to call out specific
recent incidents as I think they're easy to recognise.

I'm not saying that I think such conversations shouldn't be had,
anywhere, just that the primary place for support shouldn't be the
place that they happen, and that I think this could best be achieved
by not using a discussion list for it in the first place.

So no, I don't see the value of such wide-ranging discussion in the
support venue, even having given a fair amount of it over a
reasonably long period of time. There is nothing that has convinced
me that diverging off into some topic not at all related to use of
Debian has value here. I've done it myself, regretted it later, it's
usually been a product of frustration and I wish it wasn't tolerated
here from me or anyone else.

> > It is perhaps not so bad for a general Debian community discussion
> > group, where you would go into it thinking that pretty much anything
> > goes, but the fact is that this is Debian's primary support venue
> > for users new and old.
> 
> Something it has been doing very well at for some considerable time now.

This sub-thread asking for suggestions on how to improve the list
could have had a very short answer from you if your opinion on that
is "nothing, it's all fine". Clearly not everyone considers it to be
doing very well.

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[tomas]

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 04:09:19PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 11:09:24AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > [mailman, threads crossing month boundaries]

> I'm fairly sure it will resemble mailman (<=2) in this respect yes.
> But that's also how the Debian mailing list archives are organised.
> You and I are free to organise our own private list archives how we
> see fit.

This was but one example for the more general (and interesting)
theme of the "different views of the world" (see below).

> >Imagine just that "+1" thingie [...]

> I *think*, that the +1/-1 stuff is not visible via mail at all. So
> you're right: there'd be a divergent "view of the world". Some might
> say, that those who prefer mail interfaces would be happy not to
> see that +1/-1 stuff at all. But that might not apply to any other
> divergences.
> 
> >As opposed to a web application, where one visual appearance
> >is forced onto^H^H^H [2] offered to all participants; the
> >separation is not so clear.
> 
> The idea would be that those who prefer to interact with mail continue
> to do so.

Yes, and I still think /trying/ is worth the effort, but I see
the paradox that a communication tool is here making communication
more difficult.

I can testify to it by having lived in a corp using mutt, while
all the others used Outlook. They were so conditioned by the
(uniform) UI that I sometimes could only understand what they
were talking about by imagining how things would look on their
screens. The UI design had become part of the communication
language.

In the attempts at bridging mail-y and forum-y worlds so far,
I've seen very little thought put into that.

Cheers
 - t


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Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 11:09:24AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

If it bears any similarity to classic mailman, then colour me
unimpressed. My pet peeve with that one is that it cuts lists
into month sized slices (which makes kind of sense when you
want a month view, but puts you in an awkward place when you're
reading a thread which crosses one (or several!) month boundaries).


I'm fairly sure it will resemble mailman (<=2) in this respect yes.
But that's also how the Debian mailing list archives are organised.
You and I are free to organise our own private list archives how we
see fit.


Imagine just that "+1" thingie: how do those who participate via
mail get to "see" that? Doesn't that lead to both groups's "views
of the world" slowly diverging?


I *think*, that the +1/-1 stuff is not visible via mail at all. So
you're right: there'd be a divergent "view of the world". Some might
say, that those who prefer mail interfaces would be happy not to
see that +1/-1 stuff at all. But that might not apply to any other
divergences.


As opposed to a web application, where one visual appearance
is forced onto^H^H^H [2] offered to all participants; the
separation is not so clear.


The idea would be that those who prefer to interact with mail continue
to do so.


--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
   https://jmtd.net

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Curt]

On 2021-08-07, Keith Bainbridge  wrote:
> On 7/8/21 08:58, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>>   Not "you're wrong", but "you can't prove it".
>>
>> To me, that's a tacit ADMISSION of guilt.
>
>
> Ah   I see another avid watcher of Police drama speaking here
>

Sherlock has left the building.

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[tomas]

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 08:33:08AM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 03:26:25PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> >To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue
> >for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a
> >Stack Overflow-like site.
> 
> I agree with you to some extent. I've wondered for a long while whether
> Mailman 3 and it's "HyperKitty" web front-end could be a solution.

If it bears any similarity to classic mailman, then colour me
unimpressed. My pet peeve with that one is that it cuts lists
into month sized slices (which makes kind of sense when you
want a month view, but puts you in an awkward place when you're
reading a thread which crosses one (or several!) month boundaries).

Don't get me wrong. Searchable archives "out there" are invaluable,
and whoever tries to unify mailing lists and fora is in my eyes
a hero -- but I fear the core problem is not a technical one.

Imagine just that "+1" thingie: how do those who participate via
mail get to "see" that? Doesn't that lead to both groups's "views
of the world" slowly diverging?

I think this happens at a very fundamental level: in the "mail
world": "protocol" [1] is separate from user agent. The ones
are using mutt, the others thunderbird or claws, a third one
(horrors!) some kind of web mail and a fourth one (even more
horrors!) outlook. This is known, so most of us know that the
MUA's visual appearance is not part of the message.

As opposed to a web application, where one visual appearance
is forced onto^H^H^H [2] offered to all participants; the
separation is not so clear.

Bridging both worlds takes more than a couple of smart algorithms.

All I have seen up to now is done as web design is done
these days: you start with a wireframe [3], then...

The result for me is "thanks, but no, thanks".

Cheers

[1] in a very general sense: alternatively: "data model"
[2] here you see my bias. I can't hide it.
[3] i.e. the starting point of the design is a visual
   one.

 - t


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Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 03:26:25PM +, Andy Smith wrote:

To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue
for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a
Stack Overflow-like site.


I agree with you to some extent. I've wondered for a long while whether
Mailman 3 and it's "HyperKitty" web front-end could be a solution. You
retain the mailing list (which persists despite all the SO-like sites,
forums, etc we've tried over the years) but gain an interface to it
which addresses some of the usability issues that are frustrating newer
posters (and putting off unknown numbers of non-posters). I've not made
heavy use of HyperKitty myself, so it remains a vague "this looks
interesting" rather than a formal proposal from me. I believe the Fedora
project use it.

Here's an example recent thread from Fedora's devel list which is
illuminating.



You see a forum-like interface; there's visible threading. The little
"Thumbs up / Thumbs down" icons are an attempt to meet the needs of
those people who would otherwise reply to a post "+1" etc.; they do not
seem to be in use in this thread. (I don't know how successful they've
been at heading off that kind of reply).

There's also some examples of behaviours which are NOT fixed by the web
UI: the second message to the list is a one-line top-post which quotes
the entirety of the first post, and that is displayed in full. I suppose
another issue (compared to a "real" forum) is posts cannot be edited
after sending. The UI could of course improve over time to detect and
fold/flatten such mails by default, or similar.

--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
   https://jmtd.net

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[tomas]

On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 09:33:02PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:00:55PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> …which, again, I haven't suggested. I don't know why you keep going
> back to the idea of web forums. It's obvious that a web discussion
> forum would have the same problems as an email discussion list, if
> it were unmoderated.

I see. It was a tangent in your post: I didn't perceive it as that.
Now it's clearer to me :-)

> My only suggestion was a Stack Overflow-style question-answer site.
> Those aren't discussion forums.

Two things: (a) SO is a commercial site. It has paid staff. (b) this
is /not only/ a Q "service" -- general discussion does happen, as
can be witnessed by this very meta thread: I think this is a good
thing. Not everyone will disagree.

Of course, in such an unstructured medium, some self-imposed rules
may help. See, for example Andrew's regular posts. This isn't
anything "imposed from above" -- he went around here asking for
ideas, etc. You could do that. I could do that. If you have an
idea what could go into his posts (or what could be left out),
he'll be glad to discuss that (can be seen in action in this list,
BTW).

> Off-topic discussion is specifically something which I suggest there
> is too much of here.

If that bothers you: just do something about it. Change the subject
line (as I did in this thread, for example).

> Have a look at https://askubuntu.com/ to get some sort of idea,
> since that is at least a Debian derivative. But as I said, it has
> been tried before and I think won't/can't succeed without buy-in
> from the project.

That's not my kind of discussion forum. I come across them through
web searches, that's all the interaction I have there.

> > I feel we aren't doing that bad, considering the volume.
> 
> It is perhaps not so bad for a general Debian community discussion
> group,

which is what it is

> where you would go into it thinking that pretty much anything
> goes, but the fact is that this is Debian's primary support venue
> for users new and old.

TBH, I've seen many people here finding answers to their questions.
Sure, it's not a paid-for support line.

> I don't think that both audiences can be catered for in the same
> place and I really think that we could and should do better.

Feel free :)

Cheers
 - t


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Description: Digital signature

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Weaver]

On 09-08-2021 07:33, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:00:55PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 03:26:25PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
>> > To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue
>> > for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a
>> > Stack Overflow-like site [...]
>>
>> I stringly disagree on that one. There's tooling and there's
>> politeness, and they are, IMO, uncorrelated variables.
> 
> A lack of politeness isn't really debian-user's biggest problem. I
> think debian-user's biggest problem is the lack of restraint
> prolific posters have on posting every thought that comes into their
> heads and debating such into the ground.

We all have our perceptions.
This would appear to be an overly dramatic one.
`posting every thought that comes into their
> heads and debating such into the ground' - really?
If there's a problem requiring resolution, I think it might pay to be
more concise than that.

> That sort of thing is not really possible on a question-answer site
> as conciseness is rewarded in both question and answer.

Not in the reality I inhabit.
I'm a member of a couple of stack sires, and I have witnessed many a
humorous aside and any number of examples of downright rudeness.
  
>> Some people are rather wired towards "forum style", others more
>> towards "mail style" -- and I think that's why this kind of
>> discussion tends to come up time and again.
> 
> I haven't advocated for a forum. What I've suggested is that a
> discussion list tends to promote discussion, not user support.

How do you get the one without the other?
It is possible to have both and, as I have stated in the past, without
some level of discussion, there is very little in the aspect of
community promotion. I believe that's every bit as important. Human
beings are pack animals, with a need for interaction in any social
context. To stifle that, unnecessarily, would be a major step toward
making the list unproductive in everybody's view except for those who
delight in putting their mental straitjacket on in the mornings.
The sort of personality (or lack of it) wh would see this discussion,
for example, as `unproductive and undesireable'.

>> > The main reason why I see mailing lists as inappropriate for user
>> > support is that there is a severe signal to noise ratio problem.

There is also an extremely efficient means of weeding out those
conversations an individual sees as not necessary for their immediate
notice, or downright unnecessary, and ones they see as beng answerable -
within ther capability - and of interest. Personally, that takes me all
of 5 seconds.

>> I think you'll get the same on unmoderated fora.
> 
> …which, again, I haven't suggested. I don't know why you keep going
> back to the idea of web forums. It's obvious that a web discussion
> forum would have the same problems as an email discussion list, if
> it were unmoderated.
> 
> My only suggestion was a Stack Overflow-style question-answer site.
> Those aren't discussion forums.
> 
> Off-topic discussion is specifically something which I suggest there
> is too much of here.

It depends on what you see as `off-topic'. Your view is yours, and not
necessarily everybody's.
Do you see the value in discussion, yet?

> Have a look at https://askubuntu.com/ to get some sort of idea,
> since that is at least a Debian derivative. But as I said, it has
> been tried before and I think won't/can't succeed without buy-in
> from the project.
> 
>> I feel we aren't doing that bad, considering the volume.
> 
> It is perhaps not so bad for a general Debian community discussion
> group, where you would go into it thinking that pretty much anything
> goes, but the fact is that this is Debian's primary support venue
> for users new and old.

Something it has been doing very well at for some considerable time now.

> I don't think that both audiences can be catered for in the same
> place and I really think that we could and should do better.

It's only the one audience, and I have observed almost all members of
that audience indulging in what you see as `both' forms of discussion,
where I don't, seeing all discussion as constructive and just different
aspects of the same stream.
Cheers!

Harry.

-- 
`Unthinking respect for authority is 
the greatest enemy of truth'.
-- Albert Einstein

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:00:55PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 03:26:25PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue
> > for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a
> > Stack Overflow-like site [...]
> 
> I stringly disagree on that one. There's tooling and there's
> politeness, and they are, IMO, uncorrelated variables.

A lack of politeness isn't really debian-user's biggest problem. I
think debian-user's biggest problem is the lack of restraint
prolific posters have on posting every thought that comes into their
heads and debating such into the ground.

That sort of thing is not really possible on a question-answer site
as conciseness is rewarded in both question and answer.

> Some people are rather wired towards "forum style", others more
> towards "mail style" -- and I think that's why this kind of
> discussion tends to come up time and again.

I haven't advocated for a forum. What I've suggested is that a
discussion list tends to promote discussion, not user support.

> > The main reason why I see mailing lists as inappropriate for user
> > support is that there is a severe signal to noise ratio problem.
> 
> I think you'll get the same on unmoderated fora.

…which, again, I haven't suggested. I don't know why you keep going
back to the idea of web forums. It's obvious that a web discussion
forum would have the same problems as an email discussion list, if
it were unmoderated.

My only suggestion was a Stack Overflow-style question-answer site.
Those aren't discussion forums.

Off-topic discussion is specifically something which I suggest there
is too much of here.

Have a look at https://askubuntu.com/ to get some sort of idea,
since that is at least a Debian derivative. But as I said, it has
been tried before and I think won't/can't succeed without buy-in
from the project.

> I feel we aren't doing that bad, considering the volume.

It is perhaps not so bad for a general Debian community discussion
group, where you would go into it thinking that pretty much anything
goes, but the fact is that this is Debian's primary support venue
for users new and old.

I don't think that both audiences can be catered for in the same
place and I really think that we could and should do better.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[tomas]

On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 03:26:25PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:35:15AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > any ideas on how to make the situation better?
> 
> To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue
> for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a
> Stack Overflow-like site [...]

I stringly disagree on that one. There's tooling and there's
politeness, and they are, IMO, uncorrelated variables.

Some people are rather wired towards "forum style", others more
towards "mail style" -- and I think that's why this kind of
discussion tends to come up time and again.

Personally, I tend strongly towards "mail style": I have my MUA
and have taught it to work "my way". I'm infinitely more effective
(and happy) with that. I cringe at nearly every Webby interface.

But I am aware that there are people who work the opposite way.
I don't have a solution to that.

There is that big temptation to imagine something which works
"both ways" (there are fora, like Discourse, which offer a mail
interface, I'm taking part in one of those), but my experience
is that, since in a webby forum the presentation itself is
controlled, it ends up being part of the "language". This part
gets "lost" in translation to mail. For those users, it feels
"unnatural".

> The main reason why I see mailing lists as inappropriate for user
> support is that there is a severe signal to noise ratio problem.

I think you'll get the same on unmoderated fora. A moderated
mailing list has a higher S/N ratio, but Debian User isn't, for
a very good reason.

I feel we aren't doing that bad, considering the volume.

> In debian-user there's a relatively small group of people who value
> getting their opinions on a vast variety of topics across more than
> they value actually answering on-topic questions [...]

These are strong judgement calls, and I think our community is so
highly diverse that the thresholds will vary enormously.

It is thus, IMO, important to be extra careful. Things which to
one may be a funny joke can be to others hurtful.

> We can try to self-moderate by asking ourselves, "does my reply help
> the poster? Does it belong on debian-user?" Unfortunately for some
> the mind set is, "I'm a user of Debian so any opinion I wish to post
> is on-topic on debian-user". I appreciate I have also failed at this
> from time to time and I include myself in the list of those who
> should do better. Ways of making us do better are needed.

Everyone "fails" some times and according to some criteria. I believe
things work out generally if we keep trying.

But then, I'm said to be an optimist :-)

Cheers
 - t


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Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

> If you particularly want to do this, CoDidact is a non-profit
> developing and running a GNU Affero-licensed codebase for this
> sort of thing. I know one of the founders, if you'd like an
> introduction. https://codidact.org/
> 
I've looked at CoDiact and this seem to be using many dependencies on C#
language and been mostly made for the Windows / .Net platform.
This is not a deal breaker but not a great incentive into taking
interest either.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Dan Ritter]

Andy Smith wrote: 
> Hello,
> 
> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:35:15AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > any ideas on how to make the situation better?
> 
> To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue
> for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a
> Stack Overflow-like site. The chief advantages of such sites are
> that posted problems are narrowed down to contain the required
> information, and answers are ranked so as to make poor answers (and
> ultimately, disruptive posters) disappear. Ask Ubuntu. I think,
> works well.
> 
> There have been a few attempts to set up such sites for Debian, so
> that people could be directed to a site running on DFSG-free
> software instead of proprietary platforms like Stack Overflow. Sadly
> each of these efforts have foundered through lack of use.

If you particularly want to do this, CoDidact is a non-profit
developing and running a GNU Affero-licensed codebase for this
sort of thing. I know one of the founders, if you'd like an
introduction. https://codidact.org/

> I don't see the lack of use as an indictment of their effectiveness;
> rather I think it's just because it's too hard to change the status
> quo without significant work.

My opinion is that forum and Q/A-style systems are fundamentally
inferior to mailing lists for experts and advanced users, while
being friendlier to beginners.

> advertising on Debian's web site. The announcement threads on the
> mailing lists then got dominated by arguments from the same small
> group of people loudly and repeatedly arguing how they would never
> use or support such a thing. That's fine, but without a way to

The loud ones are partially the rude ones, but also all the
people who have been through this cycle several times and have
decided that there is nothing wrong with having mailing lists
for people who can deal with mailing lists.

> this for nuggets of on-topic wisdom and even when a post is
> on-topic, a newcomer often doesn't have the base knowledge to
> distinguish good answers from bad. I find it hard to justify
> subjecting someone to that.

This doesn't go away on forum or Q/A sites. Often the top-voted
answer is wrong or suboptimal or was correct ten years ago when
it was first asked but is incorrect now.

> If we have to continue using a mailing list for user support then my
> best suggestion would be to severely tighten up the on-topic
> requirements so that every post must be about use of Debian, and
> giving time-outs to posters who repeatedly can't stick to this.

This is reasonable. It is, however, a change in moderation that
will require a lot more work from volunteers.

-dsr-

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Brian Thompson]

On 0808, Andy Smith wrote:
>On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:35:15AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>> any ideas on how to make the situation better?
>
>To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue
>for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a
>Stack Overflow-like site. The chief advantages of such sites are
>that posted problems are narrowed down to contain the required
>information, and answers are ranked so as to make poor answers (and
>ultimately, disruptive posters) disappear. Ask Ubuntu. I think,
>works well.
>
>There have been a few attempts to set up such sites for Debian, so
>that people could be directed to a site running on DFSG-free
>software instead of proprietary platforms like Stack Overflow. Sadly
>each of these efforts have foundered through lack of use.
>
>I don't see the lack of use as an indictment of their effectiveness;
>rather I think it's just because it's too hard to change the status
>quo without significant work.
>
>The previous attempts have sort of started as an announcement that
>such a site is available, but not followed up by any level of
>advertising on Debian's web site. The announcement threads on the
>mailing lists then got dominated by arguments from the same small
>group of people loudly and repeatedly arguing how they would never
>use or support such a thing. That's fine, but without a way to
>continually advertise a site as a support venue, it will not get
>used.

There is also a free version of StackOverflow Teams which we could use a
pilot to see if it is effective. Honestly, I'm not sure that would be
very effective to begin with given that the free version probably limits
the number of users.  We could also bake a Debian-tailored support site
from scratch.

I do believe that the majority of users are more self-sufficient than in
most communities, but I do see the value of a proper support channel.

>If we have to continue using a mailing list for user support then my
>best suggestion would be to severely tighten up the on-topic
>requirements so that every post must be about use of Debian, and
>giving time-outs to posters who repeatedly can't stick to this.

I think this is much-overdo change.

>We can try to self-moderate by asking ourselves, "does my reply help
>the poster? Does it belong on debian-user?" Unfortunately for some
>the mind set is, "I'm a user of Debian so any opinion I wish to post
>is on-topic on debian-user". I appreciate I have also failed at this
>from time to time and I include myself in the list of those who
>should do better. Ways of making us do better are needed.

I have also failed to respect these guidelines, including very recently.
The mailing list has morphed into a niche Debian community that is very
noisy and has a high volume of inappropriate behavior. In part, I think
that is because the mailing list itself breeds contempt and animosity
towards people who you don't agree with. It also seems like a good
number of participants just use it as a grounds to vent their
frustrations, which isn't acceptable either.

All-in-all there is no excuse for such behavior. Let's remain
professional!

-- 
Best regards,

Brian T


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Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:35:15AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> any ideas on how to make the situation better?

To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue
for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a
Stack Overflow-like site. The chief advantages of such sites are
that posted problems are narrowed down to contain the required
information, and answers are ranked so as to make poor answers (and
ultimately, disruptive posters) disappear. Ask Ubuntu. I think,
works well.

There have been a few attempts to set up such sites for Debian, so
that people could be directed to a site running on DFSG-free
software instead of proprietary platforms like Stack Overflow. Sadly
each of these efforts have foundered through lack of use.

I don't see the lack of use as an indictment of their effectiveness;
rather I think it's just because it's too hard to change the status
quo without significant work.

The previous attempts have sort of started as an announcement that
such a site is available, but not followed up by any level of
advertising on Debian's web site. The announcement threads on the
mailing lists then got dominated by arguments from the same small
group of people loudly and repeatedly arguing how they would never
use or support such a thing. That's fine, but without a way to
continually advertise a site as a support venue, it will not get
used.

The main reason why I see mailing lists as inappropriate for user
support is that there is a severe signal to noise ratio problem.

In debian-user there's a relatively small group of people who value
getting their opinions on a vast variety of topics across more than
they value actually answering on-topic questions. So we endure
mega-threads of opinion-based off-topic content that regularly
descend into personal attacks. It is hard to sift through all of
this for nuggets of on-topic wisdom and even when a post is
on-topic, a newcomer often doesn't have the base knowledge to
distinguish good answers from bad. I find it hard to justify
subjecting someone to that.

Naturally the voluminous opinion-posters are mostly against anything
that would reduce their ability to treat debian-user like a debating
society, so effecting change is going to be hard if the only metric
one would use to justify the change would be a simple noise-based
sentiment analysis of the response to any proposal.

If we have to continue using a mailing list for user support then my
best suggestion would be to severely tighten up the on-topic
requirements so that every post must be about use of Debian, and
giving time-outs to posters who repeatedly can't stick to this.

This would be a difficult and dramatic change since debian-user has
practically no oversight; currently even severe breaches of Debian's
Code of Conduct need to be reported to the Community team directly
and at most result in a post weeks later saying, "please don't do
that" directed at no individual. So the idea that there would be
people actively dealing with off-topic content and taking action
against individuals would be quite a departure from today's reality.

So in summary, I don't think any of the things that would be
necessary to improve the way this list works are going to be popular
with the regular posters, while starting over with a different
solution requires consensus and support from the Debian project that
has up until now not been there.

We can try to self-moderate by asking ourselves, "does my reply help
the poster? Does it belong on debian-user?" Unfortunately for some
the mind set is, "I'm a user of Debian so any opinion I wish to post
is on-topic on debian-user". I appreciate I have also failed at this
from time to time and I include myself in the list of those who
should do better. Ways of making us do better are needed.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

> I'd be interested to hear any (even two word) reviews of their sofas…
Provides seating.— Andy Davidson

On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[tomas]

On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 02:03:27AM -0500, Brian Thompson wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> On Sun, 2021-08-08 at 07:57 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 07, 2021 at 05:08:18PM -0500, Brian Thompson wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > The debian-user mailing list is a joke [...]
> > 
> > You would expect some conflict in such a big community [...]

> > Your post is, in some tragic way, self-referential [...]

Looking back, that sounds too harsh and is definitely stated in
a negative way...

> Sure, I don't disagree with you that my email doesn't contribute to the
> problem [...]

> That doesn't justify my original message, but there are far greater
> problems than the act of satirically pointing out the problem.

... so let me try to improve on that: any ideas on how to make the
situation better?

Cheers
 - t


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Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Brian Thompson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Sun, 2021-08-08 at 07:57 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 07, 2021 at 05:08:18PM -0500, Brian Thompson wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > The debian-user mailing list is a joke [...]
> 
> You would expect some conflict in such a big community.
> Nevertheless, what you're doing here doesn't help in any
> way, I fear.
> 
> Perhaps you don't care, but then... why are you here at
> all?
> 
> Your post is, in some tragic way, self-referential. Not
> that I think you have any bad intentions, mind you. But
> it makes me sad.
> 
> Cheers
>  - t

Sure, I don't disagree with you that my email doesn't contribute to the
problem. However, I rarely post on this mailing list and mostly just
read it. There are others who contribute far more on a daily basis to
the problem that you fear than I have contributed in all my tenure on
this mailing list.

That doesn't justify my original message, but there are far greater
problems than the act of satirically pointing out the problem.
- -- 
Best regards,

Brian T.
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Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[tomas]

On Sat, Aug 07, 2021 at 05:08:18PM -0500, Brian Thompson wrote:

[...]

> The debian-user mailing list is a joke [...]

You would expect some conflict in such a big community.
Nevertheless, what you're doing here doesn't help in any
way, I fear.

Perhaps you don't care, but then... why are you here at
all?

Your post is, in some tragic way, self-referential. Not
that I think you have any bad intentions, mind you. But
it makes me sad.

Cheers
 - t


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Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Brian Thompson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Sat, 2021-08-07 at 23:01 +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sat 07 Aug 2021 at 23:24:31 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Aug 07, 2021 at 02:26:41PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > Accusing people of trolling is generally not helpful in any way.
> > 
> > I totally agree. And I'm a bit horrified by the hostility shown
> > towards the OP by some.
> 
> There wasn't any hostility shown to the OP of this thread. He was
> collateral damage. You can thank didier gaumet and his baseless
> accusation for that.
> 
> Apology, I hear you ask? Don't hold your breath.
> 

The debian-user mailing list is a joke. I don't want to say its main
users are people looking for an e-peen ego boost, but there are quite a
few arrogant and self-righteous individuals that make almost any civil
discussion turn hostile.  It's amusing to watch as much as it is sad.
- -- 
Best regards,

Brian T.
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Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Brian]

On Sat 07 Aug 2021 at 23:24:31 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 07, 2021 at 02:26:41PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Accusing people of trolling is generally not helpful in any way.
> 
> I totally agree. And I'm a bit horrified by the hostility shown
> towards the OP by some.

There wasn't any hostility shown to the OP of this thread. He was
collateral damage. You can thank didier gaumet and his baseless
accusation for that.

Apology, I hear you ask? Don't hold your breath.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[tomas]

On Sat, Aug 07, 2021 at 02:26:41PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

[...]

> Accusing people of trolling is generally not helpful in any way.

I totally agree. And I'm a bit horrified by the hostility shown
towards the OP by some.

Cheers
 - t


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Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Brian]

On Sat 07 Aug 2021 at 14:26:41 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 07, 2021 at 10:02:36AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > On 2021-08-07 9:31 a.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Sat, Aug 07, 2021 at 11:56:52AM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > >> On Fri 06 Aug 2021 at 19:11:48 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> [...]
> > >>
> > >>> It's only required that people believe you did something for them to act
> > >>> like you did it.
> > >>
> > >> Indeed. Disseminate an unsubstantiated rumour (as in this thread) and
> > >> it's not long before the lynch mob hits the streets.
> > > 
> > > I would never have blocked "Gunnar" based on an accusation that he
> > > was trolling.
> > > 
> > > I blocked him after he confessed that he was trolling.
> 
> Personally blocking people / adding them to your "I'll ignore this person
> when I see them" is fine. [The old "Congratulations, you have found your
> way into my killfile. *PLONK* - type message.]

Given that it is a user's right to control the mail he wants to
receive, I have always found it it strange when a blocking is
announced to the world.

> Accusing people of trolling is generally not helpful in any way.

It is hardly assuming good faith. Just do not reply.
 
> > I think that the line that was crossed simply mandate that he gets
> > ignored by now.
> > I did so with the last message he sent me yesterday (and posted on the
> > list). Was a bunch of hard to follow series of sentence. But this
> > confirm that it seems to be a choice done on having incomprehensible
> > messages and loose talk, because he did write some clear and well
> > written message.
> 
> I think that this person had difficulties in explaining themselves. That made
> it annoying / frustrating to see no progress. We all threw in effort and it
> didn't seem to be going very far. I'm not going to speculate whther that
> difficulty was accidental / deliberate to wastte our time.

Speculating on people's motives in public is fraught at the best of
times. On this list "Assume good faith" is a guiding principle so
you wouldn't do it anyway.

> > I feel that many person cherry pick one message, like the one I wrote
> > and got out of context, talking about a Lynch mob.
> > 
> > Often when someone ask for help, we'll answer back that there's
> > information missing so we can answer properly.
> > Example, the person say
> > *I can't start X11*
> > And we'll ask
> > What version of Debian are you running ?
> > What are the outputs ? Logs ?
> > What's your graphic card / GPU ?
> > etc...
> > 
> 
> See also why I picked some elements from Greg's list / David's message to
> put into the monthly FAQ messsage. It now has a section on how to ask 
> good questions and read the answers. Thanks, list, for reminding me and
> making me amend the mail.
> 
> > Why do we do so ?
> > So our answer is relevant.
> > 
> > Same rules apply when giving comment, if you want to have it relevant
> > then look at the whole story.
> > Or you'll only get a part and go off track.
> 
> This has been a particularly frustrating thread and hard to follow in 
> general.

I found its general thrust easy to follow. User-criticism par
excellance.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Brian]

On Sat 07 Aug 2021 at 11:07:01 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On 2021-08-07 11:00 a.m., Brian wrote:
> > On Sat 07 Aug 2021 at 10:02:36 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> > 
> > [Snipping]
> > 
> >> *Dider*: There's some similarities between this dude and two others 
> >> troller.
> > 
> > didier gaumet said more than that. He said:
> > 
> >   > I can give no evidence but chances are that Gunnar Gervin,
> >   > Rishi and roa moshin (non-limitative list) are the same
> >   > troll: there are troubling similarities...
> > 
> > No justification and smearing the reputations of three users into the
> > bargaing. "Assume good faith" says the Code of Conduct. Quite the
> > opposite is on view in this thread.
> > 
> *good faith* ? Publish a passport on a public mailing list ?

This really got to you, didn't it :). So much so you had to omit "Assume"
from "Assume good faith" to make a very dubious point. "Assume good faith"
is directed at you (and me).

> I don't consider this something that is both responsible AND helpful.
> 
> >> *Dude*: You have no proof it's me
> > 
> > That's correct. No evidence. The theory presented doesn't merit a
> > second glance.
> > 
> >> *Dude*: You have no proof it's me... I post someone's Passport ID page.
> >> *Me*: Posting a passport id page is a criminal offense in most countries
> >> AND doesn't proof much, except maybe that you'd be dumb to post your own.
> >> *Greg* says : That's a for of guilt admission, not saying "I didn't do
> >> it" but saying "No proof".
> >> *Me* : Exactly, it's not a court of law here. So it's not about proof
> >> but about what will people get from what you say.
> >> *and now the best*
> >> *Irrelevant writer* : This is a acting mob looking for a lynch.
> > 
> > Irrelevant? That hurt! I will have to go for a lie down for the
> > remainder of the afternoon. :)
> *You can go lie down if you feel tired* I'm not your wife to police what
> you do of your day.

You are making assumptions agian.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-07 11:00 a.m., Brian wrote:
> On Sat 07 Aug 2021 at 10:02:36 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
> [Snipping]
> 
>> *Dider*: There's some similarities between this dude and two others troller.
> 
> didier gaumet said more than that. He said:
> 
>   > I can give no evidence but chances are that Gunnar Gervin,
>   > Rishi and roa moshin (non-limitative list) are the same
>   > troll: there are troubling similarities...
> 
> No justification and smearing the reputations of three users into the
> bargaing. "Assume good faith" says the Code of Conduct. Quite the
> opposite is on view in this thread.
> 
*good faith* ? Publish a passport on a public mailing list ?

I don't consider this something that is both responsible AND helpful.

>> *Dude*: You have no proof it's me
> 
> That's correct. No evidence. The theory presented doesn't merit a
> second glance.
> 
>> *Dude*: You have no proof it's me... I post someone's Passport ID page.
>> *Me*: Posting a passport id page is a criminal offense in most countries
>> AND doesn't proof much, except maybe that you'd be dumb to post your own.
>> *Greg* says : That's a for of guilt admission, not saying "I didn't do
>> it" but saying "No proof".
>> *Me* : Exactly, it's not a court of law here. So it's not about proof
>> but about what will people get from what you say.
>> *and now the best*
>> *Irrelevant writer* : This is a acting mob looking for a lynch.
> 
> Irrelevant? That hurt! I will have to go for a lie down for the
> remainder of the afternoon. :)
*You can go lie down if you feel tired* I'm not your wife to police what
you do of your day.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-07 10:26 a.m., Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

> I think that this person had difficulties in explaining themselves. That made
> it annoying / frustrating to see no progress. We all threw in effort and it
> didn't seem to be going very far. I'm not going to speculate whther that
> difficulty was accidental / deliberate to wastte our time.
> 
>>
>> I feel that many person cherry pick one message, like the one I wrote
>> and got out of context, talking about a Lynch mob.
>>
>> Often when someone ask for help, we'll answer back that there's
>> information missing so we can answer properly.
>> Example, the person say
>> *I can't start X11*
>> And we'll ask
>> What version of Debian are you running ?
>> What are the outputs ? Logs ?
>> What's your graphic card / GPU ?
>> etc...
>>
> 
> See also why I picked some elements from Greg's list / David's message to
> put into the monthly FAQ messsage. It now has a section on how to ask 
> good questions and read the answers. Thanks, list, for reminding me and
> making me amend the mail.
> 
I've worked at tech support for many years, mostly on the 2nd level,
that is doing follow up on problems reported by agent on the phone.

And even if we selected agent with good educational background, it
didn't do the job and we had questions that missed the most basic
information to be answered, people saying what they expect and not what
they tried or what they use, etc.

This is something hard to get for many. And this not only apply to our
lists here, most of us know what we don't want but have problem saying
what we'd like.

>> Why do we do so ?
>> So our answer is relevant.
>>
>> Same rules apply when giving comment, if you want to have it relevant
>> then look at the whole story.
>> Or you'll only get a part and go off track.
> 
> This has been a particularly frustrating thread and hard to follow in 
> general.

> It's not straightforward to make this a useful list where people feel
> welcome and able to raise issues. At the risk of sounding very "pink and 
> fluffy": many of the people who appear here are not familiar with mailing
> lists at all. We need to look at everyone "with kind eyes" to some extent
> unless they are abruptly hostile and to give people the benefit of the 
> doubt. 
> 
I always try to give explanation to others when their question seem hard
to follow, or simply to use a good descriptive subject.

This doesn't seem to be appreciated by some. Strangely, most of the
time, the original poster will say thanks at one moment, the complaints
seem to come from others who'd prefer only to ignore.

> One way to deal with people being difficult is to report the issue to 
> the Community Team. Full disclosure: I'm part of the Community Team
> as is Steve Mcintyre who pops up here occasionally. The team will 
> normally talk it over, decide what action to take and carry it out.
> That can be just an email off list to the person being difficult,
> a recommendation to block someone to go to the listmasters - anything
> seen as appropriate. 
> 
Thanks for you work.
I've reported to Google (probably useless) the user who posted a
Passport on a Google Drive link.

> Another way - which is quicker and easier in some ways - is to choose to 
> ignore them for the sake of your own peace of mind. Not every post has
> to be replied to. Not everything demands a response about the character
> of the poster: even if it does, waiting a couple of hours to reply may
> always be a good idea. Others may post in the meantime and you may find
> that you no longer lead to post.
> 
> All the very best to all, as ever,
> 
> Andy Cater
>> -- 
>> Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
>> -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
>>
> 
> [Copied also to Community Team mail alias for their reference].
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Brian]

On Sat 07 Aug 2021 at 10:02:36 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

[Snipping]

> *Dider*: There's some similarities between this dude and two others troller.

didier gaumet said more than that. He said:

  > I can give no evidence but chances are that Gunnar Gervin,
  > Rishi and roa moshin (non-limitative list) are the same
  > troll: there are troubling similarities...

No justification and smearing the reputations of three users into the
bargaing. "Assume good faith" says the Code of Conduct. Quite the
opposite is on view in this thread.

> *Dude*: You have no proof it's me

That's correct. No evidence. The theory presented doesn't merit a
second glance.

> *Dude*: You have no proof it's me... I post someone's Passport ID page.
> *Me*: Posting a passport id page is a criminal offense in most countries
> AND doesn't proof much, except maybe that you'd be dumb to post your own.
> *Greg* says : That's a for of guilt admission, not saying "I didn't do
> it" but saying "No proof".
> *Me* : Exactly, it's not a court of law here. So it's not about proof
> but about what will people get from what you say.
> *and now the best*
> *Irrelevant writer* : This is a acting mob looking for a lynch.

Irrelevant? That hurt! I will have to go for a lie down for the
remainder of the afternoon. :)

> I'd start to also call this some strange form of trolling.

I am dismayed by the acceptance given to didier gaumet's post. Does that
response really deserve insults and ad hominem?

-- 
Brian.




> -- 
> Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
> -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
> 

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sat, Aug 07, 2021 at 10:02:36AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 2021-08-07 9:31 a.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 07, 2021 at 11:56:52AM +0100, Brian wrote:
> >> On Fri 06 Aug 2021 at 19:11:48 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >>> It's only required that people believe you did something for them to act
> >>> like you did it.
> >>
> >> Indeed. Disseminate an unsubstantiated rumour (as in this thread) and
> >> it's not long before the lynch mob hits the streets.
> > 
> > I would never have blocked "Gunnar" based on an accusation that he
> > was trolling.
> > 
> > I blocked him after he confessed that he was trolling.

Personally blocking people / adding them to your "I'll ignore this person
when I see them" is fine. [The old "Congratulations, you have found your
way into my killfile. *PLONK* - type message.]

Accusing people of trolling is generally not helpful in any way.

> > 
> I think that the line that was crossed simply mandate that he gets
> ignored by now.
> I did so with the last message he sent me yesterday (and posted on the
> list). Was a bunch of hard to follow series of sentence. But this
> confirm that it seems to be a choice done on having incomprehensible
> messages and loose talk, because he did write some clear and well
> written message.

I think that this person had difficulties in explaining themselves. That made
it annoying / frustrating to see no progress. We all threw in effort and it
didn't seem to be going very far. I'm not going to speculate whther that
difficulty was accidental / deliberate to wastte our time.

> 
> I feel that many person cherry pick one message, like the one I wrote
> and got out of context, talking about a Lynch mob.
> 
> Often when someone ask for help, we'll answer back that there's
> information missing so we can answer properly.
> Example, the person say
> *I can't start X11*
> And we'll ask
> What version of Debian are you running ?
> What are the outputs ? Logs ?
> What's your graphic card / GPU ?
> etc...
> 

See also why I picked some elements from Greg's list / David's message to
put into the monthly FAQ messsage. It now has a section on how to ask 
good questions and read the answers. Thanks, list, for reminding me and
making me amend the mail.

> Why do we do so ?
> So our answer is relevant.
> 
> Same rules apply when giving comment, if you want to have it relevant
> then look at the whole story.
> Or you'll only get a part and go off track.

This has been a particularly frustrating thread and hard to follow in 
general.

> And it's exactly what happened here.
> We got someone who add a sentence relating to a lynch mob. Where it
> wasn't the case in no way. And those are the same person that are unable
> to justify what they say, but wanna benefit from free speech to add a point.
> 
> *Dider*: There's some similarities between this dude and two others troller.
> *Dude*: You have no proof it's me
> *Dude*: You have no proof it's me... I post someone's Passport ID page.
> *Me*: Posting a passport id page is a criminal offense in most countries
> AND doesn't proof much, except maybe that you'd be dumb to post your own.
> *Greg* says : That's a for of guilt admission, not saying "I didn't do
> it" but saying "No proof".
> *Me* : Exactly, it's not a court of law here. So it's not about proof
> but about what will people get from what you say.
> *and now the best*
> *Irrelevant writer* : This is a acting mob looking for a lynch.
> 
> I'd start to also call this some strange form of trolling.

It's not straightforward to make this a useful list where people feel
welcome and able to raise issues. At the risk of sounding very "pink and 
fluffy": many of the people who appear here are not familiar with mailing
lists at all. We need to look at everyone "with kind eyes" to some extent
unless they are abruptly hostile and to give people the benefit of the 
doubt. 

One way to deal with people being difficult is to report the issue to 
the Community Team. Full disclosure: I'm part of the Community Team
as is Steve Mcintyre who pops up here occasionally. The team will 
normally talk it over, decide what action to take and carry it out.
That can be just an email off list to the person being difficult,
a recommendation to block someone to go to the listmasters - anything
seen as appropriate. 

Another way - which is quicker and easier in some ways - is to choose to 
ignore them for the sake of your own peace of mind. Not every post has
to be replied to. Not everything demands a response about the character
of the poster: even if it does, waiting a couple of hours to reply may
always be a good idea. Others may post in the meantime and you may find
that you no longer lead to post.

All the very best to all, as ever,

Andy Cater
> -- 
> Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
> -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
> 

[Copied also to Community Team mail alias for their reference].

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-07 9:31 a.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 07, 2021 at 11:56:52AM +0100, Brian wrote:
>> On Fri 06 Aug 2021 at 19:11:48 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> It's only required that people believe you did something for them to act
>>> like you did it.
>>
>> Indeed. Disseminate an unsubstantiated rumour (as in this thread) and
>> it's not long before the lynch mob hits the streets.
> 
> I would never have blocked "Gunnar" based on an accusation that he
> was trolling.
> 
> I blocked him after he confessed that he was trolling.
> 
I think that the line that was crossed simply mandate that he gets
ignored by now.
I did so with the last message he sent me yesterday (and posted on the
list). Was a bunch of hard to follow series of sentence. But this
confirm that it seems to be a choice done on having incomprehensible
messages and loose talk, because he did write some clear and well
written message.

I feel that many person cherry pick one message, like the one I wrote
and got out of context, talking about a Lynch mob.

Often when someone ask for help, we'll answer back that there's
information missing so we can answer properly.
Example, the person say
*I can't start X11*
And we'll ask
What version of Debian are you running ?
What are the outputs ? Logs ?
What's your graphic card / GPU ?
etc...

Why do we do so ?
So our answer is relevant.

Same rules apply when giving comment, if you want to have it relevant
then look at the whole story.
Or you'll only get a part and go off track.
And it's exactly what happened here.
We got someone who add a sentence relating to a lynch mob. Where it
wasn't the case in no way. And those are the same person that are unable
to justify what they say, but wanna benefit from free speech to add a point.

*Dider*: There's some similarities between this dude and two others troller.
*Dude*: You have no proof it's me
*Dude*: You have no proof it's me... I post someone's Passport ID page.
*Me*: Posting a passport id page is a criminal offense in most countries
AND doesn't proof much, except maybe that you'd be dumb to post your own.
*Greg* says : That's a for of guilt admission, not saying "I didn't do
it" but saying "No proof".
*Me* : Exactly, it's not a court of law here. So it's not about proof
but about what will people get from what you say.
*and now the best*
*Irrelevant writer* : This is a acting mob looking for a lynch.

I'd start to also call this some strange form of trolling.
-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Aug 07, 2021 at 11:56:52AM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Fri 06 Aug 2021 at 19:11:48 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > It's only required that people believe you did something for them to act
> > like you did it.
> 
> Indeed. Disseminate an unsubstantiated rumour (as in this thread) and
> it's not long before the lynch mob hits the streets.

I would never have blocked "Gunnar" based on an accusation that he
was trolling.

I blocked him after he confessed that he was trolling.

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Brian]

On Fri 06 Aug 2021 at 19:11:48 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

[...]

> It's only required that people believe you did something for them to act
> like you did it.

Indeed. Disseminate an unsubstantiated rumour (as in this thread) and
it's not long before the lynch mob hits the streets.

-- 
Brian.

Re: [OFFTPIC] How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 7/8/21 16:25, deloptes wrote:

I can give no evidence but chances are that Gunnar Gervin, Rishi and roa
moshin (non-limitative list) are the same



Good afternoon All

Should I change to subject?

I've been mulling over this situation as I wondered along our river.

I recall a discussion maybe 3 years ago, where somebody put a proposal
to move the lists to a what sounded like a forum-style. my only comment
was that I'm not good at going to fora to answer questions - even to
look for answers to my own questions a couple of times.

I've decided that perhaps an on-line forum may be the best way to deal
with people who appear to repeatedly ask incomplete questions. I mean,
if the question isn't in your inbox begging for an answer, it may be
easier to ignore the bait?

As several have said, a good subject line is the key to getting a
response. On the odd occasion I go looking at a forum, I am fussy which
topics I open. Some I clearly won't know the answer; some are not
inviting enough to tempt me.  I find it harder to flick email as easily
as I skip a forum topic.



So, maybe half a vote for a forum for we general users.

--
All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
0447 667 468

[OFFTPIC] How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[deloptes]

didier gaumet wrote:

> I can give no evidence but chances are that Gunnar Gervin, Rishi and roa
> moshin (non-limitative list) are the same troll: there are troubling
> similarities...

when FSF started, they did not think about so many things ... but mainly
that the psychopats would multiply that fast.
In fact it is pandemic worse than any other ... it is so bad that you loose
trust in everybody.
I do not know why it happened, but it started between 2000-2005. I wonder if
it was always there, but we just couldn't see it, but IMO no ... it was not
there ... IMO it went hand in hand with Facebook & Co. It excelerated with
younger people and culminated in the pandemic.

@Didier ... I remember one movie where one said "Do not ever underestimate
the predictability of stupidity"
So even if people act likely ... they might be different at the same level
of knowledge or lack of such.
The problem is they even they wish to find information, their google
account/profile is not giving them the same answers as for you and me.
Even if they find the information they are not trained to read and
understand it.

So the principles of the FSF somehow do not work quite well today, because
they presume a specific level of readiness of the brain and the mind, but
some people do not have it and will never have it.
So they troll around, but this is OK. I would suggest to update the policy
and just ignore stupidity at some level, but again everyone is free to post
and answer, so ... between policeing like FB and having anarchy - there
should be something better, but we still do not know what it is

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 7/8/21 02:34, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

Maybe ask on a Fedora mailing list / support group / stack overflow ?



In reality, perhaps we should have left this thread here?

--
All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
0447 667 468

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 7/8/21 08:58, Greg Wooledge wrote:

  Not "you're wrong", but "you can't prove it".

To me, that's a tacit ADMISSION of guilt.



Ah   I see another avid watcher of Police drama speaking here

--
All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
0447 667 468

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-06 6:58 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 06:49:13PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 2021-08-06 5:08 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
>>> On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 11:48:46PM +0300, Gunnar Gervin wrote:
 Didier,
 most certainly you cannot prove
>>>
>>> Wow.  You really are a horrible person, aren't you.
>>>
>>> And so, another person goes into my kill file.
>>>
>> Showing a random passport doesn't show much, except maybe that you ain't
>> the rightful owner of this passport.
> 
> I didn't even open the URL they gave.  I didn't care what it was, really.
> 
> They were accused of using multiple (phony) personas on a mailing list,
> and how did they respond?  Not "you're wrong", but "you can't prove it".
> 
I didn't understand it this way but now as you describe it this way, it
becomes more clear to my mind.

It's a childish behavior of thinking that because there's no proof then
it means that there won't be consequences. But as you say, we ain't a
court of law.

It's only required that people believe you did something for them to act
like you did it.

You get someone new at the job and for the first time ever, the printer
is jammed and there's a broken Ink cartridge. Everyone knows that this
printer must be handled with care. The new worker say "You can't prove
it's me", no we don't have a picture of you jamming the printer by using
the wrong paper thickness BUT WE HAVE PROBABLE CAUSE it's you. And
probably the boss won't keep you long...

> To me, that's a tacit ADMISSION of guilt.  As in, "Ha ha, look at how
> clever I am, I fooled you all, and I'm getting away with it!"
> 
I don't think we are part of the fool here...

Even more as his last message was strangely the most clearly written one
in the whole context of conversation with him.

> Well, this is not a court of law.  We do not have to PROVE that someone
> has acted with malice.  If you even simply pretend to be a malicious
> person, that's more than enough to get yourself ignored.
> 
> Earlier, I gave them the benefit of the doubt, and said that there wasn't
> enough evidence that they were trolling us.  As it turns out, I was wrong.
> That happens.
> 
Giving benefit of doubt is never wrong, it's the proof with have faith
in human.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 06:49:13PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 2021-08-06 5:08 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 11:48:46PM +0300, Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> >> Didier,
> >> most certainly you cannot prove
> > 
> > Wow.  You really are a horrible person, aren't you.
> > 
> > And so, another person goes into my kill file.
> > 
> Showing a random passport doesn't show much, except maybe that you ain't
> the rightful owner of this passport.

I didn't even open the URL they gave.  I didn't care what it was, really.

They were accused of using multiple (phony) personas on a mailing list,
and how did they respond?  Not "you're wrong", but "you can't prove it".

To me, that's a tacit ADMISSION of guilt.  As in, "Ha ha, look at how
clever I am, I fooled you all, and I'm getting away with it!"

Well, this is not a court of law.  We do not have to PROVE that someone
has acted with malice.  If you even simply pretend to be a malicious
person, that's more than enough to get yourself ignored.

Earlier, I gave them the benefit of the doubt, and said that there wasn't
enough evidence that they were trolling us.  As it turns out, I was wrong.
That happens.

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-06 6:41 p.m., Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 2021-08-06 2:32 p.m., didier gaumet wrote:
>> I can give no evidence but chances are that Gunnar Gervin, Rishi and roa 
>> moshin (non-limitative list) are the same troll: there are troubling 
>> similarities... 
>>
> 
> Similarities are a form of evidence when they leave the "random
> possibility" of a situation arising.
> 
> Don't know who's "roa" but for the two others, I've seen them lately on
*rishi* no roa
> the list.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-06 5:08 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 11:48:46PM +0300, Gunnar Gervin wrote:
>> Didier,
>> most certainly you cannot prove
> 
> Wow.  You really are a horrible person, aren't you.
> 
> And so, another person goes into my kill file.
> 
Showing a random passport doesn't show much, except maybe that you ain't
the rightful owner of this passport.
Anyway, in my country we don't use much passport as identification, we
have other means like our health card, driver license, etc.

I wouldn't use my passport to show on a public forum that I'm the person
who I say being.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-06 4:48 p.m., Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> Didier,
> most certainly you cannot prove
> God bless you.
> BR,
> Gunnar Gervin.
>   20200619_165027.jpg
> 
> 
> 
I think you just prove here that you are indeed a bit too fast on the
keyboard or hot headed for interacting on a mailing list like ours.

Someone says something and because it doesn't feel what you like, then
you go out publishing someone's passport here.

Sorry but there's one thing that is proven here.
I would never post my passport with all the information on a mailing
list, publicly visible.

So either you are proving not to be this Gunnar Gervin or you did
something that is really now the wise thing to do. Maybe you should
think a bit more before acting this way.

You may have had hard times in your life but nothing justify acting this
way.

In some countries (including Norway), it is a indictable offense (can
send you to jail), to publish the information page of a passport or to
distribute such information out of the framework of legal usage of the
travel documents.

> 
> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021, 21:57 didier gaumet,  > wrote:
> 
> I can give no evidence but chances are that Gunnar Gervin, Rishi and
> roa moshin (non-limitative list) are the same troll: there are
> troubling similarities...
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-06 2:32 p.m., didier gaumet wrote:
> I can give no evidence but chances are that Gunnar Gervin, Rishi and roa 
> moshin (non-limitative list) are the same troll: there are troubling 
> similarities... 
> 

Similarities are a form of evidence when they leave the "random
possibility" of a situation arising.

Don't know who's "roa" but for the two others, I've seen them lately on
the list.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 11:48:46PM +0300, Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> Didier,
> most certainly you cannot prove

Wow.  You really are a horrible person, aren't you.

And so, another person goes into my kill file.

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Gunnar Gervin]

I'm out.
Geg

On Fri, 6 Aug 2021, 21:57 didier gaumet,  wrote:

> I can give no evidence but chances are that Gunnar Gervin, Rishi and roa
> moshin (non-limitative list) are the same troll: there are troubling
> similarities...
>
>

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Gunnar Gervin]

Didier,
most certainly you cannot prove
God bless you.
BR,
Gunnar Gervin.
  20200619_165027.jpg



On Fri, 6 Aug 2021, 21:57 didier gaumet,  wrote:

> I can give no evidence but chances are that Gunnar Gervin, Rishi and roa
> moshin (non-limitative list) are the same troll: there are troubling
> similarities...
>
>

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[didier gaumet]

I can give no evidence but chances are that Gunnar Gervin, Rishi and roa moshin 
(non-limitative list) are the same troll: there are troubling similarities... 

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[007]

On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 21:06:33 +0500
rao mohsin  wrote:

> Hi there,
> 
> I am Rao Mohsin from Pakistan. I am following
> https://www.howtogeek.com/196933/how-to … ard-drive/ 1
> 
> this tutorial for booting my system directly from ISO file. this
> tutorial is on Ubuntu 14. I am trying on Fedora (13,20,24,29)
> 
> I did not understand this line
> boot=casper iso-scan/filename=${isofile} quiet
> I download Fedora ISOs from fedora website.
> https://archives.fedoraproject.org/pub/ … ve/x86_64/
> 
> 
> I found vmlinuz and initrd file and mentioned accordingly. But the
> issue is the line.
> Boot=casper……
> I am writing
> root=live:CDLABEL=Fedora-Mate-Live-29-1-2
> root=rd.live.image
> root=(hd0,msdos1)
> root=/dev/sda1
> root=live
> 
> but all failed.
> I got error “Don’t know how to handle (rd.live.image)
> What should I write so it run successfully.
> One more thing that I have do the same with debian it successfully
> run. http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/stab … t/mini.iso
> 
> 
> grub>loopback loop (hd0,msdos1)/Downloads/mini.iso
> grub>Linux (loop)/Linux
> grub>Initrd (loop)/initrd.gz
> grub>Boot
> it successfully run.
> 
> Please resolve my issue.
> 
> Many thanks,
> Rao

grml-rescueboot might do the job you need:

This package provides a script for update-grub which looks for
Grml ISO images in /boot/grml and automatically adds an entry
for each image. The purpose is to use one of those images to
boot a Grml rescue system without using a CD or USB stick.

It also works for floppy-images and other CD iso's.

sudo apt install grml-rescueboot



-- 
Greetings

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-06 12:06 p.m., rao mohsin wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> I am Rao Mohsin from Pakistan. I am following
> https://www.howtogeek.com/196933/how-to … ard-drive/ 1
> 
> this tutorial for booting my system directly from ISO file. this
> tutorial is on Ubuntu 14. I am trying on Fedora (13,20,24,29)
> 
Maybe ask on a Fedora mailing list / support group / stack overflow ?
> I did not understand this line
> boot=casper iso-scan/filename=${isofile} quiet
> I download Fedora ISOs from fedora website.
> https://archives.fedoraproject.org/pub/ … ve/x86_64/
> 
> 
> I found vmlinuz and initrd file and mentioned accordingly. But the issue
> is the line.
> Boot=casper……
> I am writing
> root=live:CDLABEL=Fedora-Mate-Live-29-1-2
> root=rd.live.image
> root=(hd0,msdos1)
> root=/dev/sda1
> root=live
> 
> but all failed.
> I got error “Don’t know how to handle (rd.live.image)
> What should I write so it run successfully.
> One more thing that I have do the same with debian it successfully run.
> http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/stab … t/mini.iso
> 
> 
> grub>loopback loop (hd0,msdos1)/Downloads/mini.iso
> grub>Linux (loop)/Linux
> grub>Initrd (loop)/initrd.gz
> grub>Boot
> it successfully run.
> 
> Please resolve my issue.
> 
> Many thanks,
> Rao
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[rao mohsin]

Hi there,

I am Rao Mohsin from Pakistan. I am following
https://www.howtogeek.com/196933/how-to … ard-drive/ 1

this tutorial for booting my system directly from ISO file. this tutorial
is on Ubuntu 14. I am trying on Fedora (13,20,24,29)

I did not understand this line
boot=casper iso-scan/filename=${isofile} quiet
I download Fedora ISOs from fedora website.
https://archives.fedoraproject.org/pub/ … ve/x86_64/


I found vmlinuz and initrd file and mentioned accordingly. But the issue is
the line.
Boot=casper……
I am writing
root=live:CDLABEL=Fedora-Mate-Live-29-1-2
root=rd.live.image
root=(hd0,msdos1)
root=/dev/sda1
root=live

but all failed.
I got error “Don’t know how to handle (rd.live.image)
What should I write so it run successfully.
One more thing that I have do the same with debian it successfully run.
http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/stab … t/mini.iso


grub>loopback loop (hd0,msdos1)/Downloads/mini.iso
grub>Linux (loop)/Linux
grub>Initrd (loop)/initrd.gz
grub>Boot
it successfully run.

Please resolve my issue.

Many thanks,
Rao