Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: Having worked at places which are majority windows and minority *nix, I can honestly say that the windows approach tends to encourage tasking of junior level admins to repetitive tasks by hand, because the senior admins don't want to do it themselves (i.e., the don't bother with scripting). Certainly is that way at my place of work sometimes. The most common thing for me to utter when watching someone else to something repetitive is ... mind if I do something real quick? Toss vim/python at it, cut the hour+ of grunt work to a 10m scripting exercise. I understand what you say about the windows command-line having come a long way, but there is a very established culture of GUI-only admins out there. I would wager that many of them are so busy putting out fires and dealing with other issues that they feel they are too busy to learn the new way. Wouldn't the new way be the old way. I often say that the problems that Microsoft is solving with Windows now were solved 20+ years ago under the Unix(-like) tools. Prime example would be remote desktops. Windows only recently, after how many decades of it being out, grasped that maybe people want to log in from a remote location? How long has XWindows been out doing just that? ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 08:40:16AM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: Wouldn't the new way be the old way. I often say that the problems that Microsoft is solving with Windows now were solved 20+ years ago under the Unix(-like) tools. Prime example would be remote desktops. Windows only recently, after how many decades of it being out, grasped that maybe people want to log in from a remote location? How long has XWindows been out doing just that? ;) I took an operating systems class a few years ago as part of my undergrad program. The professor was an older gentleman who had worked at ATT Bell Labs at the time that UNIX was first being developed. He didn't work on the project, but he said that he knew Thompson and Richie as they worked in the same facility. Anyhow, he said that most amusing thing about Microsoft was that they are just getting around now to solving the problems that UNIX solved 20 years ago or more and still managing to make new mistakes in the process. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Anyhow, he said that most amusing thing about Microsoft was that they are just getting around now to solving the problems that UNIX solved 20 years ago or more and still managing to make new mistakes in the process. This is rather fun. I remember that in 1995 I didn't now UNIX (I used to live in a Small city), and I bought what I read in a Herbert Schilds's book (he wrote that win95 would be the NEXT THING). When I learnt Linux and I learned how a simple process running with an unprivileged user cannot crash the machine peeking and modifying random memory locations, I really thought: How is this we didn't get this in Windows 95, 98! Since then, I had never programmed for Windows. And some people think that we used GNU/Linux only because the Emacs church... Regards, Nelson.- -- http://arhuaco.org http://emQbit.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/29/06 11:28, Nelson Castillo wrote: Anyhow, he said that most amusing thing about Microsoft was that they are just getting around now to solving the problems that UNIX solved 20 years ago or more and still managing to make new mistakes in the process. This is rather fun. I remember that in 1995 I didn't now UNIX (I used to live in a Small city), and I bought what I read in a Herbert Schilds's book (he wrote that win95 would be the NEXT THING). When I learnt Linux and I learned how a simple process running with an unprivileged user cannot crash the machine peeking and modifying random memory locations, I really thought: How is this we didn't get this in Windows 95, 98! That was the purpose of of the Windows NT code base. Of course, all the apps were written assuming root control of the system, so NT has never panned out. Only MSFT could fsck things up that badly. Since then, I had never programmed for Windows. And some people think that we used GNU/Linux only because the Emacs church... That's right. By day, I use OpenVMS, so I expect all OSs to be secure and powerful. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Is common sense really valid? For example, it is common sense to white-power racists that whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins are mud people. However, that common sense is obviously wrong. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFbkDtS9HxQb37XmcRAiC7AKDAXfggXNDX7I3TAw20LUPThdarGQCdHE+A u6g4E0RY5/ahaz+u2AbIpUk= =+D96 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 12:52 +, Joe wrote: [...snip...] The Windows command line, especially on servers, has come a long way from DOS, it can read and write files, it can pipe, it can control complex permissions and other Active Directory features... but it still doesn't have the large range of small and simple *nix commands which make it possible to build complex tasks quickly. This encourages stored scripts for specific tasks rather than on-the-fly problem- solving. Joe, for that reason I have always suggested and done Cygwin installations. It allows for the *nix commands. Does present much of the ability. There are many other things that can be installed on a Windows machine that allows for many things that are missing on them... as a Stock Windows machine. Personally, though I shy away from Windows anymore. I don't like to deal with Blown Registry issues. And by far those are the biggest issues I am seeing now, and it HURTS. -- greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The technology that is Stronger, better, faster: Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
On Sun, Nov 26, 2006 at 01:54:19PM -0500, Greg Folkert wrote: Joe, for that reason I have always suggested and done Cygwin installations. It allows for the *nix commands. Does present much of the ability. There are many other things that can be installed on a Windows machine that allows for many things that are missing on them... as a Stock Windows machine. When I had to use windows regularly myself, I used Cygwin. Where I work now I am required to use windows occasionally, but thankfully all the windows machines have Exceed and I can bring up an xterm on a Unix or Linux server to get my real work done. Anyhow, my biggest beef with Cygwin was the limitations. Several years ago, when I was working on my undergraduate thesis, I was writing a small simulation. It had to run on Windows and Linux (I am a Linux guy and my advisor was a Windows guy). Enter Cygwin and wxWindows. I installed Cygwin on my laptop and then downloaded wxWindows. I needed a static build and a shared build, so I open up two xterms, unpack wxWindows and start the two builds. After a few hours, both failed with an error like Ran out of environment space. Now, I don't know if that speaks to a limitation in Cygwin or in Windows, but it is annoying. I ended up restart the builds and doing them serially. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: I'm not a windows guy, so I am not sure about scripting. Perhaps there is a way as you suggest, but all of the windows admins I personally know are only able to get around in the GUI. The concept of scripting anything is foreign to them. Not exactly foreign, as many essential admin tools are command-line only, or at least easier to do from the command line than elsewhere. Ipconfig returns the same kind of data as ifconfig, and also allows some DNS and DHCP cache control. Ping, traceroute and nslookup are all there, and not really easy to do any other way. There will be nobody claiming any level of Windows admin skill who is unfamiliar with a command prompt. The Windows command line, especially on servers, has come a long way from DOS, it can read and write files, it can pipe, it can control complex permissions and other Active Directory features... but it still doesn't have the large range of small and simple *nix commands which make it possible to build complex tasks quickly. This encourages stored scripts for specific tasks rather than on-the-fly problem- solving. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 12:52:24PM +, Joe wrote: Not exactly foreign, as many essential admin tools are command-line only, or at least easier to do from the command line than elsewhere. Ipconfig returns the same kind of data as ifconfig, and also allows some DNS and DHCP cache control. Ping, traceroute and nslookup are all there, and not really easy to do any other way. There will be nobody claiming any level of Windows admin skill who is unfamiliar with a command prompt. I beg to differ. I have personally met a number of windows admins, claiming to be both expert and experienced, who seriously had no idea what I was talking about in regard to things traceroute and nslookup (thankfully, everyone knows about ping). I have even had a couple claim that windows does not even *have* those tools. The Windows command line, especially on servers, has come a long way from DOS, it can read and write files, it can pipe, it can control complex permissions and other Active Directory features... but it still doesn't have the large range of small and simple *nix commands which make it possible to build complex tasks quickly. This encourages stored scripts for specific tasks rather than on-the-fly problem- solving. Having worked at places which are majority windows and minority *nix, I can honestly say that the windows approach tends to encourage tasking of junior level admins to repetitive tasks by hand, because the senior admins don't want to do it themselves (i.e., the don't bother with scripting). To them, the GUI is the only way to accomplish anything. I understand what you say about the windows command-line having come a long way, but there is a very established culture of GUI-only admins out there. I would wager that many of them are so busy putting out fires and dealing with other issues that they feel they are too busy to learn the new way. OTOH, even though *nix admins are likely just as busy, I don't think that you can reasonably get a job as *nix admin anywhere with halfway competent hiring people without at least demonstrating some level of proficiency with a couple of scripting languages. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
RE: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Most hosting facilities do allow FrontPage and/or FTP access...FrontPage does allow SSL connections but few people set it up which is sad. FTP is clear and is probably the most common way to allow access to M$ Websites and no there is no SSH default connection which I totally disagree with. Remote Administration to an actual server can be done with a Terminal Server Client (RDP) which is 128-bit encrypted on the login, 40-bit (I believe but may be 128-bit as well) for the passing of the info/screen shots but definately not clear. Secure Administration on the inside can be done with Scripting. Whether you want to use VBScript or JScript but this is only on the inside environment and not over the internet. If stuff like this needs to be done I will setup an SSH server on my M$ Boxes and open the firewall to allow SSH but assign it to a different port. There are several half decent free SSH Servers out there for Windows and I like freeSSHd. -Original Message- From: Roberto C. Sanchez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 9:41 AM To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse On Fri, Nov 10, 2006 at 08:10:08AM -0500, Stephen Yorke wrote: M$'s OS is ready...if you want some WWW Sites or servers which you think you can hack or take down let me know and I will setup a couple and let you go at it. If you hack them cool tell me how I can better my security if not score one for M$ and let it be. Just remember this...your OS is only as secure as you are and if you do not know how to secure it you shouldn't be using it. The main problem is that Windows' design facilitates bad security practices. I agree that a competent admin can make a windows server just as secure as anything else. However, if you setup a windows server with IIS, what is the most likely method to let people get access to their web space? Probably front page or ftp. Does front page use SSL? I know for certain that ftp does not. If you setup a *nix server it is trivial to give users sftp in lieu of ftp (and many GUI windows clients which support ftp also support sftp). What about secure administration? AFAIK, the remote administration options for windows, including the offerings from Novell and others, all operate in the clear. The presence of a real shell in *nix systems allows me to do things like setup an ssh server, only allowing allowing shell access to specific users, restricting access to public keys only. Then, on my admin workstation, I script what I need done, and then I can trivially accomplish the tasks on multiple servers securely. Doing such a thing is difficult, if not impossible, in the windows world. The difficulty of being *very* secure in the windows world and still being able to work is such that many admins take short cuts or reduce security out of convenience. In the *nix world it is possible to be very secure and still be able to work nearly as easily and conveniently as if you are not secure at all. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 05:26:06PM -0500, Stephen Yorke wrote: Most hosting facilities do allow FrontPage and/or FTP access...FrontPage does allow SSL connections but few people set it up which is sad. FTP is clear and is probably the most common way to allow access to M$ Websites and no there is no SSH default connection which I totally disagree with. I wonder if someone has studied the incidence of website defacements and tried to corellate that with whether or not clear ftp is used (on MS platforms and non-MS platforms alike). Remote Administration to an actual server can be done with a Terminal Server Client (RDP) which is 128-bit encrypted on the login, 40-bit (I believe but may be 128-bit as well) for the passing of the info/screen shots but definately not clear. I'm not sure, but I seem to recall that MS's own implementation of crypto can be weak in some cases. IIRC, PPTP was a good example of this. Their 40-bit PPTP could be cracked in a matter of minutes on a mediocre machine. Secure Administration on the inside can be done with Scripting. Whether you want to use VBScript or JScript but this is only on the inside environment and not over the internet. If stuff like this needs to be done I will setup an SSH server on my M$ Boxes and open the firewall to allow SSH but assign it to a different port. There are several half decent free SSH Servers out there for Windows and I like freeSSHd. I'm not a windows guy, so I am not sure about scripting. Perhaps there is a way as you suggest, but all of the windows admins I personally know are only able to get around in the GUI. The concept of scripting anything is foreign to them. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Am 2006-11-06 13:42:08, schrieb Ron Johnson: Linux crashed? That's bad. It is coded to do so, since it prevent Jackpots :-P Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Stephen Yorke wrote: To each their own BUT... But nothing. Now look at 2003...it is rock solid in my thoughts unless you are looking at the WWW/HTML/.NET patches which were released recently but then again if you are looking at those and saying the OS is unsecure you must be running IE on your servers. Me, I never run ANY web browser on my servers and I don't think ANYONE should run any web browser on ANY server unless you are looking for trouble. Lemme know when you can turn off the GUI on those servers, mmm'kay. It's all well and good to say that working on Microsoft pays the bills but man, how do you cover the medical expenses of banging your head against the idiocy Microsoft throws at every OS they produce? Sure, Microsoft keeps our PC techs hoppin' at work. I look at 99% of the problems they face and shake my head as it was solved in the unix world D-E-C-A-D-E-S ago. My all time favorite to date was unable to remove to some machines with one type of remote login because it double-started a service which brought the machine down. So we used a different type of remote login for just that machine but not the others. Why? Because using it on other machines caused pretty much the same problem! :/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 16:04 +0100, steef wrote: the fear of microsoft to get kicked out of markets. We can only hope that may be the case some day. After all, Windows is hardly ready for the desktop let alone the server markets. :D -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
To each their own BUT... This is only my 2 cents and I am sure most on this list will take it with a grain of salt. M$ gives me a job, pays the bills and I enjoy working with it and teaching people proper ways of using it but I also love the Debian world and am liking it more and more every day. The main OS on my laptop is Debian with a second partition of XP just in case. I mostly do security work so the Debian is a no brainer and for the most part I can do everything I need to on my M$ boxes using TSClient/Rdesktop. Microsoft has come a long way and as far as stating that their OS is 'hardly ready' is far from the truth. I have watched this string since it started and finally decided to write something. If you look at their track record I agree...NT 3.5x, 4 were terrible OS's. Then came 2000 and even M$ will agree that it was the Millennium of the NOS world. NT4 was actually more secure than it is/was and that is why Microsoft is trying to push it out. Now look at 2003...it is rock solid in my thoughts unless you are looking at the WWW/HTML/.NET patches which were released recently but then again if you are looking at those and saying the OS is unsecure you must be running IE on your servers. Me, I never run ANY web browser on my servers and I don't think ANYONE should run any web browser on ANY server unless you are looking for trouble. I disable web browsing on my server and if I need to go out to the web I use a client or FTP from the command line. XP on the other hand does have some problems. I totally agree with everyone who says M$ is troubled but I DO NOT AGREE with they are not unsecure or ready. M$'s OS is ready...if you want some WWW Sites or servers which you think you can hack or take down let me know and I will setup a couple and let you go at it. If you hack them cool tell me how I can better my security if not score one for M$ and let it be. Just remember this...your OS is only as secure as you are and if you do not know how to secure it you shouldn't be using it. Me, I am here learning about Debian, I know *NIX is superior to M$ and I love using Solaris and Debian...I threw Pay Hat out the door as soon as they went to their Pay system...who does that look like? Not to mention there are several Windows Themes out there for Red Hat. They are trying to be like M$ just because they know how successful M$ was/is and will be with their OS. I wish Linux would show up more on the desktop but it is taking time. MAC OS is out there on the desktop more than any other Linux distro but they have the marketing down pat as well as money to throw at it and I would be surprised if it surpasses M$ some day but that is not going to happen anytime soon. -Stephen -Original Message- From: Scarletdown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 3:29 AM To: debian Subject: Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 16:04 +0100, steef wrote: the fear of microsoft to get kicked out of markets. We can only hope that may be the case some day. After all, Windows is hardly ready for the desktop let alone the server markets. :D -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
On Fri, Nov 10, 2006 at 08:10:08AM -0500, Stephen Yorke wrote: M$'s OS is ready...if you want some WWW Sites or servers which you think you can hack or take down let me know and I will setup a couple and let you go at it. If you hack them cool tell me how I can better my security if not score one for M$ and let it be. Just remember this...your OS is only as secure as you are and if you do not know how to secure it you shouldn't be using it. The main problem is that Windows' design facilitates bad security practices. I agree that a competent admin can make a windows server just as secure as anything else. However, if you setup a windows server with IIS, what is the most likely method to let people get access to their web space? Probably front page or ftp. Does front page use SSL? I know for certain that ftp does not. If you setup a *nix server it is trivial to give users sftp in lieu of ftp (and many GUI windows clients which support ftp also support sftp). What about secure administration? AFAIK, the remote administration options for windows, including the offerings from Novell and others, all operate in the clear. The presence of a real shell in *nix systems allows me to do things like setup an ssh server, only allowing allowing shell access to specific users, restricting access to public keys only. Then, on my admin workstation, I script what I need done, and then I can trivially accomplish the tasks on multiple servers securely. Doing such a thing is difficult, if not impossible, in the windows world. The difficulty of being *very* secure in the windows world and still being able to work is such that many admins take short cuts or reduce security out of convenience. In the *nix world it is possible to be very secure and still be able to work nearly as easily and conveniently as if you are not secure at all. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Stephen Yorke wrote:
To each their own BUT...
No need for a BUT. To each his own. Full Stop.
[snip]
Just remember this...your OS is only as secure as you are and if you do
not know how to secure it you shouldn't be using it.
The only real security is physical security. Anyone who wants to know
whether his machines are secure can tell very easily. Just answer
this question: Does the mahine have any external access port? If the
answer is yes, then the machine is not secure. So, if a machine is not
secure in absolute terms, the next evaluation is: Just how insecure
is this machine? Not all machines require absolute security.
Me, I am here learning about Debian, I know *NIX is superior to M$ and I
Umm, the term superior is one which requires qualification. Superior
for what? Each OS has it's own advantages and disadvantages, or they
wouldn't all exist. If any one OS were superior to all others in all
respects, then it would be the only one to continue to exist.
[snip]
Mike
--
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This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
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Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Steve Lamb wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: But because of their lock on the desktop, they also have incredible userland and developer mindshare. You sure? I had a rather interesting conversation at work the other day. I work at a casino outside of Vegas and the guy in charge of what technology we use for our property came up to me and asked, You're good at Linux, right? Perl, Python scripting? A-yeah. Good. We can do a lot with Linux for very little cost. Certainly something we're looking at. Coolness, sounds like good news for your career too! This reminded me, I was in a casino and saw a video slot machine crash -- someone came by and rebooted it, and I could see the boot sequence. It was Linux. I asked the guy, and he didn't know what Linux was at all, but he said that pretty much all the machines looked like that when you booted them up. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/06/06 12:53, Matthew Krauss wrote: Steve Lamb wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: [snip] Coolness, sounds like good news for your career too! This reminded me, I was in a casino and saw a video slot machine crash -- someone came by and rebooted it, and I could see the boot sequence. It was Linux. I asked the guy, and he didn't know what Linux was at all, but he said that pretty much all the machines looked like that when you booted them up. Linux crashed? That's bad. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Is common sense really valid? For example, it is common sense to white-power racists that whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins are mud people. However, that common sense is obviously wrong. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFT5AQS9HxQb37XmcRAhlMAJ0e+a0T6fH6JkodZKI2De5E3OXdBgCfanqi FUJdju2tWLZxX2PBKPzwx3I= =vQ/U -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/06/06 12:53, Matthew Krauss wrote: Steve Lamb wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: [snip] Coolness, sounds like good news for your career too! This reminded me, I was in a casino and saw a video slot machine crash -- someone came by and rebooted it, and I could see the boot sequence. It was Linux. I asked the guy, and he didn't know what Linux was at all, but he said that pretty much all the machines looked like that when you booted them up. Linux crashed? That's bad. Well yes... but then we are talking about one out of hundreds of machines running continuously 24/7 and running some weird proprietary software *and* hardware, and that's the only time (out of many times being dragged to casinos) that I've seen this happen. (Much more common is hardware failure like a paper-jam in the mechanism that takes the money or prints out the little tickets.) It looked like he just hard-booted it and it came back up right where it left off. All the machines say Malfunction voids all pays and plays, but the person who was on it just went right back to pushing the little button and watching the virtual reels spin, no voiding needed. Matthew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Ron Johnson wrote: But because of their lock on the desktop, they also have incredible userland and developer mindshare. You sure? I had a rather interesting conversation at work the other day. I work at a casino outside of Vegas and the guy in charge of what technology we use for our property came up to me and asked, You're good at Linux, right? Perl, Python scripting? A-yeah. Good. We can do a lot with Linux for very little cost. Certainly something we're looking at. Casinos out here are 2 things. AS400 (ne iSeries) and WinServers. My jaw about hit the floor when he said that. We just got our first Linux server in the DC (Red Hat, booo) but the experience with it was good he's seriously looking at other uses we can apply Linux. Granted we're not going to throw Linux at any AS400 application (which is pretty much anything to do with the floor or hotel) but a lot of our secondary services, the meat 'n 'taters of the infrastructure is really OS neutral. Granted it doesn't happen everywhere but if a tech. guy is worth his salt he'll understand that just as his server OS ain't going to be ideal for the desktop chances are his desktop OS ain't gonna be the best for his servers. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/05/06 12:28, Steve Lamb wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: But because of their lock on the desktop, they also have incredible userland and developer mindshare. You sure? I had a rather interesting conversation at work the other day. I work at a casino outside of Vegas and the guy in charge of what technology we use for our property came up to me and asked, You're good at Linux, right? Perl, Python scripting? A-yeah. Good. We can do a lot with Linux for very little cost. Certainly something we're looking at. Casinos out here are 2 things. AS400 (ne iSeries) and WinServers. My jaw about hit the floor when he said that. We just got our first Linux server in the DC (Red Hat, booo) but the experience with it was good he's seriously looking at other uses we can apply Linux. Granted we're not going to throw Linux at any AS400 application (which is pretty much anything to do with the floor or hotel) but a lot of our secondary services, the meat 'n 'taters of the infrastructure is really OS neutral. Hopefully we'll be getting a Linux server as a near-line storage system, and maybe a 10TB historical database server. Our main system is also being migrated to Java and Oracle RAC hosted on Linux. Yay!! But... the clients will still run Windows, if for no other reason than mindshare. It's the desktop, the desktop is Windows. Granted it doesn't happen everywhere but if a tech. guy is worth his salt he'll understand that just as his server OS ain't going to be ideal for the desktop chances are his desktop OS ain't gonna be the best for his servers. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Is common sense really valid? For example, it is common sense to white-power racists that whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins are mud people. However, that common sense is obviously wrong. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFTlXES9HxQb37XmcRAvmSAKDFx0IbkDHt0/eLCj/2KVTuTavALQCgzHyn OiszKBUB2aKpzNTijv1yn4M= =BHVm -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
On Saturday 04 November 2006 04:20, Nate Bargmann wrote: * Clive Menzies [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006 Nov 03 08:55 -0600]: On (03/11/06 07:48), Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote: Hi, Google news reports that M$ is going to collaborate with Novell on Suse Linux. I wonder what that means... ;-) Interesting but when you sup with the devil, you need a very long spoon. Clearly this is an unholy alliance and the sooner the community moves away from Novell/SuSE products, the better. MS is not at a point where they can be trusted, yet--certainly not as long as Bill and Steve are anywhere close to the controls. I think this will be seen as a turning point somewhere down the road, the question is which way it will turn. The optimist in me likes to think that this is merely a sign of desperation on the part of both Novell and MS, that the momentum is so high on our side that MS' tea leaves are showing that Vista will be a bust. Then I am completely put off by the arrogance of the whole thing. MS is in effect scolding all of us over here for even daring to run, let alone develop our software. The fact is that MS has lost the mindshare and no amount of patent lawsuits will bring that back. The more they fight with patents, the more they will become a routing problem and soon an irrelevant entity. Either way I have a healthy sceptcism of Microsoft's motives. Microsoft's motives are clear, they want to be dominant the player in IT. However, they've already lost the data center and they're about to lose more. They're in a vise and are responding in the only way they know how. Certainly, the patent litigation will be unpleasant, but they are doomed to fail. Muchado about nothing (or not much). Why all the indignation. Novell has already been working on interoperability with M$. Mono runs .net stuff on a Linux box. So what's so bad about that? I always felt the M$ hounding Robertson out of the Lindows name was s obvious: M$ Lindows is coming! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/03/06 20:20, Nate Bargmann wrote: * Clive Menzies [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006 Nov 03 08:55 -0600]: On (03/11/06 07:48), Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote: [snip] Microsoft's motives are clear, they want to be dominant the player in IT. However, they've already lost the data center and they're about to lose more. My eyes see lots of ProLiants running Win Server 2K3, and only some running Linux, HP-UX and a few running z/OS OpenVMS. The fact that MSFT's *income* in *always* increasing is prima facia evidence that MSFT is winning, and has been really winning for 6 years (since Server 2K was released). They're in a vise and are responding in the only way they know how. Certainly, the patent litigation will be unpleasant, but they are doomed to fail. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Is common sense really valid? For example, it is common sense to white-power racists that whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins are mud people. However, that common sense is obviously wrong. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFTM3WS9HxQb37XmcRAtnJAJ4gBZKVfUq4it0rgm6KQhV+2wMA1QCfT1JS vJyF2HBbmi19dip5P7NIGX4= =Dszf -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
On Sat, Nov 04, 2006 at 11:28:54AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: My eyes see lots of ProLiants running Win Server 2K3, and only some running Linux, HP-UX and a few running z/OS OpenVMS. Really? My eyes see about 12 racks of proliants and Suns, all running Linux (except for one SunFire running Solaris 8, I think and one Tru64 box). In fact, out of about a total of 200 workstations and servers, there are only about half a dozen WinXP workstations. The fact that MSFT's *income* in *always* increasing is prima facia evidence that MSFT is winning, and has been really winning for 6 years (since Server 2K was released). No, The fact that MSFT's income is increasing is evidence that 1) they keep raising prices and 2) they have been successful in developing a nearly unbreakable customer lock in. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Ron Johnson wrote: The fact that MSFT's *income* in *always* increasing is prima facia evidence that MSFT is winning... Winning what? -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/04/06 19:07, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Sat, Nov 04, 2006 at 11:28:54AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: My eyes see lots of ProLiants running Win Server 2K3, and only some running Linux, HP-UX and a few running z/OS OpenVMS. Really? My eyes see about 12 racks of proliants and Suns, all running Linux (except for one SunFire running Solaris 8, I think and one Tru64 box). In fact, out of about a total of 200 workstations and servers, there are only about half a dozen WinXP workstations. Lucky you. Win Server is taking over, if for no other reason than it's so fragile that you need to dedicate one or more servers per task. The fact that MSFT's *income* in *always* increasing is prima facia evidence that MSFT is winning, and has been really winning for 6 years (since Server 2K was released). No, The fact that MSFT's income is increasing is evidence that 1) they keep raising prices They can because of the lock-in. But because of their lock on the desktop, they also have incredible userland and developer mindshare. and 2) they have been successful in developing a nearly unbreakable customer lock in. Nobody said Gates Balmer were stupid... :( - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Is common sense really valid? For example, it is common sense to white-power racists that whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins are mud people. However, that common sense is obviously wrong. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFTVN+S9HxQb37XmcRAhfkAJ406KBUyuSO9XK/MaJ6e3JQEUlvoQCfWUxn 6F1vx8QtaUcYehAinZiP6K0= =uheH -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
On (03/11/06 07:48), Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote: Hi, Google news reports that M$ is going to collaborate with Novell on Suse Linux. I wonder what that means... ;-) Interesting but when you sup with the devil, you need a very long spoon. MS has a history of signing agreements with potential competitors, gouging their business and then discarding them. Alternatively, Novell may benefit but there may be sinister implications for the rest of the open source community. Either way I have a healthy sceptcism of Microsoft's motives. Regards Clive -- www.clivemenzies.co.uk ... ...strategies for business -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote: Hi, Google news reports that M$ is going to collaborate with Novell on Suse Linux. I wonder what that means... ;-) H yes. one of our (dutch) regional papers writes about this deal. their (novell and m$) aim is a 'collaboration' of software between window$ and linux on the same machine. the cause, writes the paper (het Brabants Dagblad), is the growing influence of linux and the fear of microsoft to get kicked out of markets. regards, steef -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 04:04:39PM +0100, steef wrote: } Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote: } Hi, } } Google news reports that M$ is going to collaborate with Novell on } Suse Linux. } I wonder what that means... ;-) } } H } } } yes. one of our (dutch) regional papers writes about this deal. their } (novell and m$) aim is a 'collaboration' of software between window$ and } linux on the same machine. the cause, writes the paper (het Brabants } Dagblad), is the growing influence of linux and the fear of microsoft to } get kicked out of markets. NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/business/03soft.html?ex=1163221200en=d4fb3a0a5a8877aeei=5070emc=eta1 } regards, } steef --Greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Gentlefolk: It sounds as if this effort includes a significant attempt to reinvigorate the rapidly-cooling ``you can get sued for using Linux'' FUD. From the NYTimes article: (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/business/03soft.html?ei=5070en=d4fb3a0a5a8877aeex=1163221200adxnnl=1emc=eta1adxnnlx=1162573225-6R/TMUUmbINGdzyGvG8o9Q) As part of the agreement, Microsoft said it would not file patent infringement suits against customers who purchase Novell's SuSE Linux. and again: [Mr. Ballmer called] Oracle's deal ``just a service agreement'' with Red Hat. ``You get no covenant not to sue if you chose Oracle.'' signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
Max Hyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It sounds as if this effort includes a significant attempt to reinvigorate the rapidly-cooling ``you can get sued for using Linux'' FUD. As part of the agreement, Microsoft said it would not file patent infringement suits against customers who purchase Novell's SuSE Linux. Oh how nice... If you use our product, we won't burn down your store. -Miles -- An atheist doesn't have to be someone who thinks he has a proof that there can't be a god. He only has to be someone who believes that the evidence on the God question is at a similar level to the evidence on the werewolf question. [John McCarthy] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] M$ collaborates with Suse
* Clive Menzies [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006 Nov 03 08:55 -0600]: On (03/11/06 07:48), Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote: Hi, Google news reports that M$ is going to collaborate with Novell on Suse Linux. I wonder what that means... ;-) Interesting but when you sup with the devil, you need a very long spoon. Clearly this is an unholy alliance and the sooner the community moves away from Novell/SuSE products, the better. MS is not at a point where they can be trusted, yet--certainly not as long as Bill and Steve are anywhere close to the controls. I think this will be seen as a turning point somewhere down the road, the question is which way it will turn. The optimist in me likes to think that this is merely a sign of desperation on the part of both Novell and MS, that the momentum is so high on our side that MS' tea leaves are showing that Vista will be a bust. Then I am completely put off by the arrogance of the whole thing. MS is in effect scolding all of us over here for even daring to run, let alone develop our software. The fact is that MS has lost the mindshare and no amount of patent lawsuits will bring that back. The more they fight with patents, the more they will become a routing problem and soon an irrelevant entity. Either way I have a healthy sceptcism of Microsoft's motives. Microsoft's motives are clear, they want to be dominant the player in IT. However, they've already lost the data center and they're about to lose more. They're in a vise and are responding in the only way they know how. Certainly, the patent litigation will be unpleasant, but they are doomed to fail. - Nate -- Wireless | Amateur Radio Station N0NB | Successfully Microsoft Amateur radio exams; ham radio; Linux info @ | free since January 1998. http://www.qsl.net/n0nb/ | Debian, the choice of My Kawasaki KZ-650 SR @| a GNU generation! http://www.networksplus.net/n0nb/ | http://www.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
