Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Sat 20 Jun 2020 at 16:51:12 -0600, Tom Dial wrote: > > > On 6/20/20 13:17, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > On Sb, 20 iun 20, 18:37:31, Brian wrote: > >> On Sat 20 Jun 2020 at 17:53:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > >> > >>> On Vi, 19 iun 20, 15:12:27, Tom Dial wrote: > > I notice that tasksel (= /usr/bin/tasksel) is a Perl program in which it > appears the "cmd" to be executed once selections are made (line 24 from > the end) is > > apt-get -q -y -o APT::Install-Recommends=true -o \ > APT::Get::AutomaticRemove=true -o APT::Acquire::Retries=3 install > > I suspect that has something to do with the apparent fact that tasksel > ignores "recommends=false" from other sources. I also suspect that > editing that line would change the behavior in the desired direction. > >From long-standing practice and inclination I have no wish to test this, > but someone else might. > > I assume this would need to be done by skipping tasksel during > installation of the d-i minimal system, then altering and running the > installed tasksel after the post-install reboot. > >>> > >>> Why not just run 'apt install task-' afterwards? > >> > >> Without the suggested alteration made by Tom Dial? How does that fulfill > >> Richard's desired outcome of not installing recommended packages? > > > > As far as I know all tasks are now[1] metapackages that one can just > > install with apt, hence one doesn't need tasksel at all. > > This seems to be quite correct: apt would happily install each of the > tasksel-listed tasks as described. With "APT::Install-Recommends=false" > it will do it without the recommends. Indeed. > I do wonder how appropriate or useful it would be to install these task > groups without the recommends, though. On my system (with gnome > installed), for instance, task-xfce-desktop would install 37 packages > exclusive of the recommends and 213 more with recommends included. I > have to think some of them would be useful almost to the point of necessity. > > Sometimes you have to be careful what you ask for, lest you get it, as > Mencken put it, good and hard. The changelog for debconf has * Install recommends by default. That's from 2009. Here is not the place to recount the history, but the reasons for the change are not trivial. > > If you are referring to the lack of '--no-install-recommends', I was > > under the impression that we are in the context of a system installed > > with 'recommends=false' preseeded, which as per your posting[2] is > > already configured to not install recommends. > > > > I just now realised that skipping the tasksel step completely makes > > 'recommends=false' optional (it's only use would be to get a system > > pre-configured to not install recommends), so one should add > > '--no-install-recommends' as needed to the above > > This approach is much better than hacking a file that a standard package > installed. Agreed. One may hope that Richard will see it in the same light. I am not sure that the only use for 'recommends=false' > ... would be to get a system pre-configured to not install > recommends ... It is possible that it is obeyed when preseeding with pkgsel and a late_command. Not having tried it, I wouldn't know. -- Brian.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On 6/20/20 13:17, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Sb, 20 iun 20, 18:37:31, Brian wrote: >> On Sat 20 Jun 2020 at 17:53:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: >> >>> On Vi, 19 iun 20, 15:12:27, Tom Dial wrote: I notice that tasksel (= /usr/bin/tasksel) is a Perl program in which it appears the "cmd" to be executed once selections are made (line 24 from the end) is apt-get -q -y -o APT::Install-Recommends=true -o \ APT::Get::AutomaticRemove=true -o APT::Acquire::Retries=3 install I suspect that has something to do with the apparent fact that tasksel ignores "recommends=false" from other sources. I also suspect that editing that line would change the behavior in the desired direction. >From long-standing practice and inclination I have no wish to test this, but someone else might. I assume this would need to be done by skipping tasksel during installation of the d-i minimal system, then altering and running the installed tasksel after the post-install reboot. >>> >>> Why not just run 'apt install task-' afterwards? >> >> Without the suggested alteration made by Tom Dial? How does that fulfill >> Richard's desired outcome of not installing recommended packages? > > As far as I know all tasks are now[1] metapackages that one can just > install with apt, hence one doesn't need tasksel at all. This seems to be quite correct: apt would happily install each of the tasksel-listed tasks as described. With "APT::Install-Recommends=false" it will do it without the recommends. I do wonder how appropriate or useful it would be to install these task groups without the recommends, though. On my system (with gnome installed), for instance, task-xfce-desktop would install 37 packages exclusive of the recommends and 213 more with recommends included. I have to think some of them would be useful almost to the point of necessity. Sometimes you have to be careful what you ask for, lest you get it, as Mencken put it, good and hard. > > If you are referring to the lack of '--no-install-recommends', I was > under the impression that we are in the context of a system installed > with 'recommends=false' preseeded, which as per your posting[2] is > already configured to not install recommends. > > I just now realised that skipping the tasksel step completely makes > 'recommends=false' optional (it's only use would be to get a system > pre-configured to not install recommends), so one should add > '--no-install-recommends' as needed to the above This approach is much better than hacking a file that a standard package installed. > > [1] they used to be separate lists of packages consumed by tasksel (and > aptitude?) > [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/06/msg00648.html > > Kind regards, > Andrei > -
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Sb, 20 iun 20, 18:37:31, Brian wrote: > On Sat 20 Jun 2020 at 17:53:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > On Vi, 19 iun 20, 15:12:27, Tom Dial wrote: > > > > > > I notice that tasksel (= /usr/bin/tasksel) is a Perl program in which it > > > appears the "cmd" to be executed once selections are made (line 24 from > > > the end) is > > > > > > apt-get -q -y -o APT::Install-Recommends=true -o \ > > > APT::Get::AutomaticRemove=true -o APT::Acquire::Retries=3 install > > > > > > I suspect that has something to do with the apparent fact that tasksel > > > ignores "recommends=false" from other sources. I also suspect that > > > editing that line would change the behavior in the desired direction. > > > >From long-standing practice and inclination I have no wish to test this, > > > but someone else might. > > > > > > I assume this would need to be done by skipping tasksel during > > > installation of the d-i minimal system, then altering and running the > > > installed tasksel after the post-install reboot. > > > > Why not just run 'apt install task-' afterwards? > > Without the suggested alteration made by Tom Dial? How does that fulfill > Richard's desired outcome of not installing recommended packages? As far as I know all tasks are now[1] metapackages that one can just install with apt, hence one doesn't need tasksel at all. If you are referring to the lack of '--no-install-recommends', I was under the impression that we are in the context of a system installed with 'recommends=false' preseeded, which as per your posting[2] is already configured to not install recommends. I just now realised that skipping the tasksel step completely makes 'recommends=false' optional (it's only use would be to get a system pre-configured to not install recommends), so one should add '--no-install-recommends' as needed to the above ;) [1] they used to be separate lists of packages consumed by tasksel (and aptitude?) [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/06/msg00648.html Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Sat 20 Jun 2020 at 17:53:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Vi, 19 iun 20, 15:12:27, Tom Dial wrote: > > > > I notice that tasksel (= /usr/bin/tasksel) is a Perl program in which it > > appears the "cmd" to be executed once selections are made (line 24 from > > the end) is > > > > apt-get -q -y -o APT::Install-Recommends=true -o \ > > APT::Get::AutomaticRemove=true -o APT::Acquire::Retries=3 install > > > > I suspect that has something to do with the apparent fact that tasksel > > ignores "recommends=false" from other sources. I also suspect that > > editing that line would change the behavior in the desired direction. > > >From long-standing practice and inclination I have no wish to test this, > > but someone else might. > > > > I assume this would need to be done by skipping tasksel during > > installation of the d-i minimal system, then altering and running the > > installed tasksel after the post-install reboot. > > Why not just run 'apt install task-' afterwards? Without the suggested alteration made by Tom Dial? How does that fulfill Richard's desired outcome of not installing recommended packages? -- Brian.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Vi, 19 iun 20, 09:30:30, David Wright wrote: > > One other benefit: the knowledge and skills you gain in this process > will be far more transferable than a deeper understanding of the d-i. > After all, I haven't gained the impression that you're in technical > charge of rolling out, say, 5000 installations of Debian across > some institution or other. I would argue that for significantly customized installations[1] at such scale there are again better tools than the installer (e.g. FAI). [1] beyond what the preseeding mechanism can do reasonably easy Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Vi, 19 iun 20, 15:12:27, Tom Dial wrote: > > I notice that tasksel (= /usr/bin/tasksel) is a Perl program in which it > appears the "cmd" to be executed once selections are made (line 24 from > the end) is > > apt-get -q -y -o APT::Install-Recommends=true -o \ > APT::Get::AutomaticRemove=true -o APT::Acquire::Retries=3 install > > I suspect that has something to do with the apparent fact that tasksel > ignores "recommends=false" from other sources. I also suspect that > editing that line would change the behavior in the desired direction. > >From long-standing practice and inclination I have no wish to test this, > but someone else might. > > I assume this would need to be done by skipping tasksel during > installation of the d-i minimal system, then altering and running the > installed tasksel after the post-install reboot. Why not just run 'apt install task-' afterwards? Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:12:27 -0600, Tom Dial wrote: > I notice that tasksel (= /usr/bin/tasksel) is a Perl program in which it > appears the "cmd" to be executed once selections are made (line 24 from > the end) is > > apt-get -q -y -o APT::Install-Recommends=true -o \ > APT::Get::AutomaticRemove=true -o APT::Acquire::Retries=3 install > > I suspect that has something to do with the apparent fact that tasksel > ignores "recommends=false" from other sources. I also suspect that > editing that line would change the behavior in the desired direction. > >From long-standing practice and inclination I have no wish to test this, > but someone else might. > > I assume this would need to be done by skipping tasksel during > installation of the d-i minimal system, then altering and running the > installed tasksel after the post-install reboot. This post deserves a gold star; Richard will be over the moon to discover that an uncluttered install of Debian 10 with MATE desktop is possible when using d-i. There is no need to run an altered tasksel script after the post-install reboot. /target/usr/bin/tasksel can be edited after the base system is installed and "true" changed to "false". Does it work? Would I be writing this if it didn't? -- Brian.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On 19.06.20 23:12, Tom Dial wrote: On 6/19/20 09:28, Brian wrote: On Thu 18 Jun 2020 at 14:15:00 -0500, David Wright wrote: On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 20:48:50 (+0100), Brian wrote: AFAICT, it appears Recommends are *always* installed using the Installer, irrespective of preseeding. Not *sometimes*. One or two counterexamples are: openssh-server Recommends xauth ¹ popularity-contest Recommends gnupg Neither recommendation was installed until after booting, when I was installing xserver-xorg and mutt respectively. There are one or two more, like pigz and secureboot-db, but these are Recommends of Recommends, which might muddy the issue. But this is during the part of installation run through apt-get, not debootstrap, where the process is more transparent to the user, but likely uninfluenced by debootstrap options. I would like to reassess what I wrote; some of it is incorrect and some could do with further examination. > My observations indicate that the first claim does not work for > installing the base system or additional software, but the second > configuration is carried out. "recommends=false" does not influence the behaviour of debootstrap. It does not, as the Manual says, install recommended packages. It was incorrect for me to claim otherwise. Richard's concern is with tasksel's default installation of recommended packages. In this case "recommends=false" does not modify tasksel's default behaviour. I think this is because "recommends=false" only acts on apt based operations. In other words, tasksel is not apt. I notice that tasksel (= /usr/bin/tasksel) is a Perl program in which it appears the "cmd" to be executed once selections are made (line 24 from the end) is apt-get -q -y -o APT::Install-Recommends=true -o \ APT::Get::AutomaticRemove=true -o APT::Acquire::Retries=3 install I suspect that has something to do with the apparent fact that tasksel ignores "recommends=false" from other sources. I also suspect that editing that line would change the behavior in the desired direction. From long-standing practice and inclination I have no wish to test this, but someone else might. I assume this would need to be done by skipping tasksel during installation of the d-i minimal system, then altering and running the installed tasksel after the post-install reboot. Regards, Tom Dial Great information. Thanks a lot! Marco.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On 6/19/20 09:28, Brian wrote: > On Thu 18 Jun 2020 at 14:15:00 -0500, David Wright wrote: > >> On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 20:48:50 (+0100), Brian wrote: >>> >>> AFAICT, it appears Recommends are *always* installed using the Installer, >>> irrespective of preseeding. Not *sometimes*. >> >> One or two counterexamples are: >> >> openssh-server Recommends xauth ¹ >> popularity-contest Recommends gnupg >> >> Neither recommendation was installed until after booting, >> when I was installing xserver-xorg and mutt respectively. >> >> There are one or two more, like pigz and secureboot-db, but these are >> Recommends of Recommends, which might muddy the issue. >> >> But this is during the part of installation run through apt-get, >> not debootstrap, where the process is more transparent to the user, >> but likely uninfluenced by debootstrap options. > > I would like to reassess what I wrote; some of it is incorrect and some > could do with further examination. > > > My observations indicate that the first claim does not work for > > installing the base system or additional software, but the second > > configuration is carried out. > > "recommends=false" does not influence the behaviour of debootstrap. It > does not, as the Manual says, install recommended packages. It was > incorrect for me to claim otherwise. > > Richard's concern is with tasksel's default installation of recommended > packages. In this case "recommends=false" does not modify tasksel's > default behaviour. I think this is because "recommends=false" only acts > on apt based operations. In other words, tasksel is not apt. I notice that tasksel (= /usr/bin/tasksel) is a Perl program in which it appears the "cmd" to be executed once selections are made (line 24 from the end) is apt-get -q -y -o APT::Install-Recommends=true -o \ APT::Get::AutomaticRemove=true -o APT::Acquire::Retries=3 install I suspect that has something to do with the apparent fact that tasksel ignores "recommends=false" from other sources. I also suspect that editing that line would change the behavior in the desired direction. >From long-standing practice and inclination I have no wish to test this, but someone else might. I assume this would need to be done by skipping tasksel during installation of the d-i minimal system, then altering and running the installed tasksel after the post-install reboot. Regards, Tom Dial >
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 06:23:00 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 06/18/2020 10:25 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > On Mi, 17 iun 20, 06:51:18, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > > > The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs debootstrap. > > > I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it will take > > > some time/effort to learn it. > > > > If you are going to start from scratch you should consider mmdebstrap > > instead (preferably the version in bullseye). It is mostly a drop-in > > replacement for deboostrap, but significantly faster and with some very > > useful additional features. > > IIRC I had looked at it when experimenting with debootstrap and was confused > by its use of chroot. My goal was creating a bootable system on a flash > drive. > > > > > As to the learning curve, deboostrap itself is quite easy. The hard part > > is getting a usable system *after* the deboostrap step. > > > > At that point one gets to really appreciate the hard work that went > > behind debian-installer ;) > > You are "preaching to the choir" ;/ I've sometimes thought you were using a different hymn sheet though. :) > That why I'm investigating making the installer do what I want. That's a laudable aim, but d-i will not be bent to doing what it is not designed to do. For example, suppose you want to install the MATE task without its recommended packages; you are on a loser. > In a way, my underlying problem is Debian has done too good a job > in creating a system maximally useful to the broadest spectrum of users. > They don't use my preferred programs for some functions and including > functions I have no interest in. That results in unnecessary clutter and > size. I am unsure whether Debian has created any system. What it has done is an outstanding job of packaging and providing a competent installer. It is up to a user to create a system that suits their needs. Your preferred programs are not installed using task-mate-desktop? It includes programs of little interest to you? Dead easy. Do apt install install task-mate-desktop --no-install-recommends and go from there. -- Brian.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
Hello, On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 09:30:30AM -0500, David Wright wrote: > Why not start with a minimal working system, even adding a few > select tools, and then see what isn't necessary for your own > minimalist system. Now you can try removing them from a *working* > system and, should you go too far, you still have the tools to > diagnose what's gone wrong, and fix it. The way I handle this is to indeed install a minimal Debian system with d-i and preseeding and then use configuration management software to turn that system into what it is "supposed" to be, There are a plethora of configuration management solutions that are all pretty well documented, and there are multiple choices that have an active vibrant community. I currently use Ansible, other popular choices include Puppet. There are many more. Basically I would advocate doing a minimal job of OS installation in d-i+preseed and then doing the rest in something more understandable and verbose. Given that you can run arbitrary commands in the installed system you can automate anything at all in the configuration management. It also has the advantage of recording the recipe for baking that particular kind of system as an item of code/configuration that gets stored in source code control (e.g. git, subversion, …) forever; changes to it can be documented and reasoned about at a later date. I have explained all this to Richard before but he doesn't appear interested in investigating this, preferring to try to wrangle the d-i for every task. I don't think it's a good strategy. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Thu 18 Jun 2020 at 14:15:00 -0500, David Wright wrote: > On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 20:48:50 (+0100), Brian wrote: > > > > AFAICT, it appears Recommends are *always* installed using the Installer, > > irrespective of preseeding. Not *sometimes*. > > One or two counterexamples are: > > openssh-server Recommends xauth ¹ > popularity-contest Recommends gnupg > > Neither recommendation was installed until after booting, > when I was installing xserver-xorg and mutt respectively. > > There are one or two more, like pigz and secureboot-db, but these are > Recommends of Recommends, which might muddy the issue. > > But this is during the part of installation run through apt-get, > not debootstrap, where the process is more transparent to the user, > but likely uninfluenced by debootstrap options. I would like to reassess what I wrote; some of it is incorrect and some could do with further examination. > My observations indicate that the first claim does not work for > installing the base system or additional software, but the second > configuration is carried out. "recommends=false" does not influence the behaviour of debootstrap. It does not, as the Manual says, install recommended packages. It was incorrect for me to claim otherwise. Richard's concern is with tasksel's default installation of recommended packages. In this case "recommends=false" does not modify tasksel's default behaviour. I think this is because "recommends=false" only acts on apt based operations. In other words, tasksel is not apt. -- Brian.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 06:15:48 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Mi, 17 iun 20, 20:48:50, Brian wrote: > > > > debootstrap is only run during the installation of the base system. It > > installs recommended packages. That is in contradiction to what the > > Manual says. > > For "regular" use deboostrap does not install Recommends. This has always been my understanding too. > > According to the manpage it does have a '--debian-installer' option for > "internal purposes by the debian-installer" with no other information on > what it does. I back down completely on my statement above regarding debootstrap and recommended packages. It was based on a laxness in not checking the Priority: of a package. The Manual is correct and there is no contradiction. -- Brian.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 06:23:00 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote: > On 06/18/2020 10:25 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > On Mi, 17 iun 20, 06:51:18, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > > > The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs debootstrap. > > > I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it will take > > > some time/effort to learn it. > > > > If you are going to start from scratch you should consider mmdebstrap > > instead (preferably the version in bullseye). It is mostly a drop-in > > replacement for deboostrap, but significantly faster and with some very > > useful additional features. > > IIRC I had looked at it when experimenting with debootstrap and was > confused by its use of chroot. My goal was creating a bootable system > on a flash drive. > > > > As to the learning curve, deboostrap itself is quite easy. The hard part > > is getting a usable system *after* the deboostrap step. > > > > At that point one gets to really appreciate the hard work that went > > behind debian-installer ;) > > You are "preaching to the choir" ;/ > > That why I'm investigating making the installer do what I want. > > In a way, my underlying problem is Debian has done too good a job > in creating a system maximally useful to the broadest spectrum of > users. They don't use my preferred programs for some functions and > including functions I have no interest in. That results in unnecessary > clutter and size. I couldn't agree less; I think you're starting at the wrong end. There's plenty of evidence in the lists that you have run the d-i countless times, yet I haven't seen any evidence that you've tried to analyse how it works by, say, reading the source, notwithstanding the fact that you play your cards close to your chest. In choosing to work on "taming" the d-i, you've chosen a piece of software that, by its very nature, is obscure in how it works. It's even composed of packages that differ from their "grown-up" cousins in the final OS installation, limiting the transfer of knowledge. A Debian installation is loaded up with any number of introspective tools for examining its own composition and behaviour. None of that is available to you while the d-i is running. Just crudely trying to understand what it did after the event involves merging its log, apt's history, and the screens displayed by its front-end (if you remembered to record their timings). And even that casts little light on the debootstrap stage. Looking at its log, you can see that, for much of the time, the system is in a semi-broken state, ignoring its own dependency and configuration problems. Is that really what you want to work on? Why not start with a minimal working system, even adding a few select tools, and then see what isn't necessary for your own minimalist system. Now you can try removing them from a *working* system and, should you go too far, you still have the tools to diagnose what's gone wrong, and fix it. That way, you end up having constructed a post-installation script that, instead of installing nearly 300 packages and purging two like mine, will purge a modest number of packages and install very few. One other benefit: the knowledge and skills you gain in this process will be far more transferable than a deeper understanding of the d-i. After all, I haven't gained the impression that you're in technical charge of rolling out, say, 5000 installations of Debian across some institution or other. Cheers, David.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On 06/18/2020 10:25 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Mi, 17 iun 20, 06:51:18, Richard Owlett wrote: The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs debootstrap. I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it will take some time/effort to learn it. If you are going to start from scratch you should consider mmdebstrap instead (preferably the version in bullseye). It is mostly a drop-in replacement for deboostrap, but significantly faster and with some very useful additional features. IIRC I had looked at it when experimenting with debootstrap and was confused by its use of chroot. My goal was creating a bootable system on a flash drive. As to the learning curve, deboostrap itself is quite easy. The hard part is getting a usable system *after* the deboostrap step. At that point one gets to really appreciate the hard work that went behind debian-installer ;) You are "preaching to the choir" ;/ That why I'm investigating making the installer do what I want. In a way, my underlying problem is Debian has done too good a job in creating a system maximally useful to the broadest spectrum of users. They don't use my preferred programs for some functions and including functions I have no interest in. That results in unnecessary clutter and size.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Mi, 17 iun 20, 06:51:18, Richard Owlett wrote: > > The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs debootstrap. > I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it will take > some time/effort to learn it. If you are going to start from scratch you should consider mmdebstrap instead (preferably the version in bullseye). It is mostly a drop-in replacement for deboostrap, but significantly faster and with some very useful additional features. As to the learning curve, deboostrap itself is quite easy. The hard part is getting a usable system *after* the deboostrap step. At that point one gets to really appreciate the hard work that went behind debian-installer ;) Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Mi, 17 iun 20, 20:48:50, Brian wrote: > > debootstrap is only run during the installation of the base system. It > installs recommended packages. That is in contradiction to what the > Manual says. For "regular" use deboostrap does not install Recommends. According to the manpage it does have a '--debian-installer' option for "internal purposes by the debian-installer" with no other information on what it does. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Thu 18 Jun 2020 at 06:48:26 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote: > On 06/18/2020 03:13 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 12:53:55AM +0100, Brian wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > > No you don't. A user preseeds with > > > > > >recommends=false > > > > > > But you know for a fact that this doesn't work. Therefore, an answer to > > > your enquiry > > > > > >> Is there a way to totally disable recommends when installing Debian? > > > > > > is "no". > > > > Or file a bug report? > > > > ;-P > > > > Questions to ask before filing a bug report (even a wishlist): > 1. Is it a "bug" or a "feature"? That's for you to determine. You need to figure out what your expectations are for both the program and its documentation. Then you need to gather your observations and see how they stack up against your expectations. Then think about whether the d-i team are going to sweat over this, particularly when they have already given a caveat for "technical reasons". Unless you file a bug and a patch for the documentation, the immediate response might just be a "wontfix". > 2. Do I "know" something that is not actually true? That seems likely. The scientific method is the usual manner in which we deal with that, by means of experimentation. > 3. Do I have an unrecognized void in my understanding? Yes, the unknown unknowns. Unfortunately, some of these might also be unknowable. We don't know. Cheers, David.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 20:48:50 (+0100), Brian wrote: > On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 14:15:05 -0500, David Wright wrote: > > On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 18:15:49 (+0100), Brian wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 06:51:18AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > > > > Clarification of my immediate goal: > > > > > > > > > > Using the ISO of DVD1 I wish to install Debian with "recommends" > > > > > disabled during the installation process. > > > > > Section 5.3.2 of the Installation Guide has the preseed option > > > > > > recommends=false > > > > > > as the way of disabling recommended packages: > > > > > > By setting this option to false, the package management system > > > will be configured to not automatically install "Recommends", > > > both during the installation and for the installed system. > > > > > > My observations indicate that the first claim does not work for > > > installing the base system or additional software, but the second > > > configuration is carried out. > > > > I presume that by "second configuration" you mean that the installer > > leaves the desired option in /target/etc/apt/ when it quits. > > Indeed I do. > > > What's visible from the installer's logs is that Recommends are > > sometimes installed, and sometime not, and that it's controlled > > by the commandline, overriding any configuration inserted into either > > of /target/etc/apt/ or /etc/apt/¹. Of course, I have no idea how the > > d-i constructs those commandlines. > > AFAICT, it appears Recommends are *always* installed using the Installer, > irrespective of preseeding. Not *sometimes*. One or two counterexamples are: openssh-server Recommends xauth ¹ popularity-contest Recommends gnupg Neither recommendation was installed until after booting, when I was installing xserver-xorg and mutt respectively. There are one or two more, like pigz and secureboot-db, but these are Recommends of Recommends, which might muddy the issue. But this is during the part of installation run through apt-get, not debootstrap, where the process is more transparent to the user, but likely uninfluenced by debootstrap options. > > > It seems me that Richard's goal is unachievable. > > > > To me, it would make a little more sense to examine the installed > > system at length and see what can be taken out. I think the "OP" > > already has received methods of determining "top-level" packages. > > That is what I do. At the same time, we have the issue that > > recommends=false > > is apparently ignored. That is the essential issue. Should he choose to, > Richard Owlett will confirm that this is the case. > > > > > > The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs > > > > > debootstrap. > > > > > I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it > > > > > will take some time/effort to learn it. > > > > AFAICT, all installs run debootstrap, but under the hood. But having > > learnt it, perhaps you'll be able to unpick its logs better than I can. > > debootstrap is only run during the installation of the base system. It > installs recommended packages. That is in contradiction to what the > Manual says. > > > > Section 6.3.5 of the Installation Guide says: > > > > > > For technical reasons packages installed during the installation > > > of the base system are installed without their "Recommends". > > > > > > I observere this is not correct, irrespective of "recommends=false". > > > > I don't know exactly what they mean by "base system". It's certainly > > true that one step is carried out with --no-install-recommends set: > > it's large (wrt number of packages), replaces the kernel that has just > > been installed previously (with its Recommends) and performs an upgrade. > > Perhaps that is all that's meant. > > Base System is the set of important packages installed after partitioning > is carried out. OK, yes, the debootstrap installed part. I've never considered analysing any of that because I've found nothing of interest there. Does the fact that many of these packages are udebs, with different functionality from their corresponding debs, have any influence on their dependency relationships? I've never given debian-installer/binary-amd64/Packages.gz more than a passing glance. ¹ If you don't see this package being installed, it will probably be because you don't run the installer remotely through ssh after the network has been configured, my normal MO. Cheers, David.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 07:50:39PM +0100, Brian wrote: > On Thu 18 Jun 2020 at 14:41:19 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 06:48:26AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: [...] > > > 2. Do I "know" something that is not actually true? > > > > That is anyone's guess. I know I know many things which aren't true. > > But alas, I don't know which ones ;-) > > Are these classed as known unknowns or unknown knowns? If I knew which ones they were, I could tell you which ones they are. Or, uh, something, y'know ;-) Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Thu 18 Jun 2020 at 14:41:19 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 06:48:26AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > > On 06/18/2020 03:13 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 12:53:55AM +0100, Brian wrote: > > > > > >[...] > > > > > >>No you don't. A user preseeds with > > >> > > >> recommends=false > > >> > > >>But you know for a fact that this doesn't work. Therefore, an answer to > > >>your enquiry > > >> > > >> > Is there a way to totally disable recommends when installing Debian? > > >> > > >>is "no". > > > > > >Or file a bug report? > > > > > >;-P > > > > > > > Questions to ask before filing a bug report (even a wishlist): > > 1. Is it a "bug" or a "feature"? > > *If* Brian is right with his assessment (and I haven't a reason to doubt > it, though I haven't checked either), I'd say it isn't a feature. Either > the program or the doc should be corrected. I agree with what you say (apart from the big "If" ;) ). I think Richard is concerned that when it comes to installing a desktop the Recommends: are pulled in spite of preseeding with "recommends=false". Considering the Guide in 6.3.5 says: The rule described above only takes effect after this point in the installation process. that is a reasonable concern. A bug submitted against the Guide would not be out of place. > > 2. Do I "know" something that is not actually true? > > That is anyone's guess. I know I know many things which aren't true. > But alas, I don't know which ones ;-) Are these classed as known unknowns or unknown knowns? -- Brian.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 06:48:26AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 06/18/2020 03:13 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 12:53:55AM +0100, Brian wrote: > > > >[...] > > > >>No you don't. A user preseeds with > >> > >> recommends=false > >> > >>But you know for a fact that this doesn't work. Therefore, an answer to > >>your enquiry > >> > >> > Is there a way to totally disable recommends when installing Debian? > >> > >>is "no". > > > >Or file a bug report? > > > >;-P > > > > Questions to ask before filing a bug report (even a wishlist): > 1. Is it a "bug" or a "feature"? *If* Brian is right with his assessment (and I haven't a reason to doubt it, though I haven't checked either), I'd say it isn't a feature. Either the program or the doc should be corrected. > 2. Do I "know" something that is not actually true? That is anyone's guess. I know I know many things which aren't true. But alas, I don't know which ones ;-) > 3. Do I have an unrecognized void in my understanding? See above. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On 06/18/2020 03:13 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 12:53:55AM +0100, Brian wrote: [...] No you don't. A user preseeds with recommends=false But you know for a fact that this doesn't work. Therefore, an answer to your enquiry > Is there a way to totally disable recommends when installing Debian? is "no". Or file a bug report? ;-P Questions to ask before filing a bug report (even a wishlist): 1. Is it a "bug" or a "feature"? 2. Do I "know" something that is not actually true? 3. Do I have an unrecognized void in my understanding?
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 12:53:55AM +0100, Brian wrote: [...] > No you don't. A user preseeds with > > recommends=false > > But you know for a fact that this doesn't work. Therefore, an answer to > your enquiry > > > Is there a way to totally disable recommends when installing Debian? > > is "no". Or file a bug report? ;-P Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 06:31:16 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 06/17/2020 06:12 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 04:53:45AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > On 06/17/2020 03:34 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > A couple of those led me to disable recommends completely. It seems > > > > I'm a freak monster or sometning ;-@ > > > > > > > > > > Is there a way to totally disable recommends when installing Debian? > > > I wish to set up a machine for experimenting to find out what I > > > really want. Long long term I am considering using debootstrap to > > > install a extremely customized system. > > > > I have this in the file /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/95no-recommends: > > > >APT::Install-Recommends no: > > > > If I understand correctly, I need to add > /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/95no-recommends to the ISO of the installer's DVD1. No you don't. A user preseeds with recommends=false But you know for a fact that this doesn't work. Therefore, an answer to your enquiry > Is there a way to totally disable recommends when installing Debian? is "no". -- Brian.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 14:15:05 -0500, David Wright wrote: > On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 18:15:49 (+0100), Brian wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 06:51:18AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > > Clarification of my immediate goal: > > > > > > > > Using the ISO of DVD1 I wish to install Debian with "recommends" > > > > disabled during the installation process. > > > Section 5.3.2 of the Installation Guide has the preseed option > > > > recommends=false > > > > as the way of disabling recommended packages: > > > > By setting this option to false, the package management system > > will be configured to not automatically install "Recommends", > > both during the installation and for the installed system. > > > > My observations indicate that the first claim does not work for > > installing the base system or additional software, but the second > > configuration is carried out. > > I presume that by "second configuration" you mean that the installer > leaves the desired option in /target/etc/apt/ when it quits. Indeed I do. > What's visible from the installer's logs is that Recommends are > sometimes installed, and sometime not, and that it's controlled > by the commandline, overriding any configuration inserted into either > of /target/etc/apt/ or /etc/apt/¹. Of course, I have no idea how the > d-i constructs those commandlines. AFAICT, it appears Recommends are *always* installed using the Installer, irrespective of preseeding. Not *sometimes*. > > It seems me that Richard's goal is unachievable. > > To me, it would make a little more sense to examine the installed > system at length and see what can be taken out. I think the "OP" > already has received methods of determining "top-level" packages. That is what I do. At the same time, we have the issue that recommends=false is apparently ignored. That is the essential issue. Should he choose to, Richard Owlett will confirm that this is the case. > > > > The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs debootstrap. > > > > I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it > > > > will take some time/effort to learn it. > > AFAICT, all installs run debootstrap, but under the hood. But having > learnt it, perhaps you'll be able to unpick its logs better than I can. debootstrap is only run during the installation of the base system. It installs recommended packages. That is in contradiction to what the Manual says. > > Section 6.3.5 of the Installation Guide says: > > > > For technical reasons packages installed during the installation > > of the base system are installed without their "Recommends". > > > > I observere this is not correct, irrespective of "recommends=false". > > I don't know exactly what they mean by "base system". It's certainly > true that one step is carried out with --no-install-recommends set: > it's large (wrt number of packages), replaces the kernel that has just > been installed previously (with its Recommends) and performs an upgrade. > Perhaps that is all that's meant. Base System is the set of important packages installed after partitioning is carried out.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 18:15:49 (+0100), Brian wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 06:51:18AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > Clarification of my immediate goal: > > > > > > Using the ISO of DVD1 I wish to install Debian with "recommends" > > > disabled during the installation process. > Section 5.3.2 of the Installation Guide has the preseed option > > recommends=false > > as the way of disabling recommended packages: > > By setting this option to false, the package management system > will be configured to not automatically install "Recommends", > both during the installation and for the installed system. > > My observations indicate that the first claim does not work for > installing the base system or additional software, but the second > configuration is carried out. I presume that by "second configuration" you mean that the installer leaves the desired option in /target/etc/apt/ when it quits. What's visible from the installer's logs is that Recommends are sometimes installed, and sometime not, and that it's controlled by the commandline, overriding any configuration inserted into either of /target/etc/apt/ or /etc/apt/¹. Of course, I have no idea how the d-i constructs those commandlines. > It seems me that Richard's goal is unachievable. To me, it would make a little more sense to examine the installed system at length and see what can be taken out. I think the "OP" already has received methods of determining "top-level" packages. > > > The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs debootstrap. > > > I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it > > > will take some time/effort to learn it. AFAICT, all installs run debootstrap, but under the hood. But having learnt it, perhaps you'll be able to unpick its logs better than I can. > Section 6.3.5 of the Installation Guide says: > > For technical reasons packages installed during the installation > of the base system are installed without their "Recommends". > > I observere this is not correct, irrespective of "recommends=false". I don't know exactly what they mean by "base system". It's certainly true that one step is carried out with --no-install-recommends set: it's large (wrt number of packages), replaces the kernel that has just been installed previously (with its Recommends) and performs an upgrade. Perhaps that is all that's meant. ¹ I think the latter would only affect the d-i itself, and that system's configuration gets thrown away at exit. Cheers, David.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 14:26:31 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 06:51:18AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > > [...] > > > Clarification of my immediate goal: > > > > Using the ISO of DVD1 I wish to install Debian with "recommends" > > disabled during the installation process. > > I can't give you an authoritative answer for this one, sorry. Section 5.3.2 of the Installation Guide has the preseed option recommends=false as the way of disabling recommended packages: By setting this option to false, the package management system will be configured to not automatically install "Recommends", both during the installation and for the installed system. My observations indicate that the first claim does not work for installing the base system or additional software, but the second configuration is carried out. It seems me that Richard's goal is unachievable. > > The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs debootstrap. > > I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it > > will take some time/effort to learn it. > > Once you actually start customizing your installs, a combo of debootstrap > and an apt cache is unbeatable, Yes, there's some slope to take, but the > view from up there is magnific :-) Section 6.3.5 of the Installation Guide says: For technical reasons packages installed during the installation of the base system are installed without their "Recommends". I observere this is not correct, irrespective of "recommends=false". -- Brian.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On 06/17/2020 07:26 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 06:51:18AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: [...] Clarification of my immediate goal: Using the ISO of DVD1 I wish to install Debian with "recommends" disabled during the installation process. I can't give you an authoritative answer for this one, sorry. The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs debootstrap. I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it will take some time/effort to learn it. Once you actually start customizing your installs, a combo of debootstrap and an apt cache is unbeatable, Yes, there's some slope to take, but the view from up there is magnific :-) Cheers -- t Thank you.
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 06:51:18AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: [...] > Clarification of my immediate goal: > > Using the ISO of DVD1 I wish to install Debian with "recommends" > disabled during the installation process. I can't give you an authoritative answer for this one, sorry. > The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs debootstrap. > I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it > will take some time/effort to learn it. Once you actually start customizing your installs, a combo of debootstrap and an apt cache is unbeatable, Yes, there's some slope to take, but the view from up there is magnific :-) Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On 06/17/2020 06:36 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 06:31:16AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: On 06/17/2020 06:12 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 04:53:45AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: On 06/17/2020 03:34 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: [snip] A couple of those led me to disable recommends completely. It seems I'm a freak monster or sometning ;-@ Is there a way to totally disable recommends when installing Debian? I wish to set up a machine for experimenting to find out what I really want. Long long term I am considering using debootstrap to install a extremely customized system. I have this in the file /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/95no-recommends: APT::Install-Recommends no: If I understand correctly, I need to add /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/95no-recommends to the ISO of the installer's DVD1. When doing debootstrap, I usually tweak /etc/apt after having set up the base system and before installing packages (other things which go there are, e.g. the setup of an apt proxy/cache). Either manually, when tinkering or via a script. Clarification of my immediate goal: Using the ISO of DVD1 I wish to install Debian with "recommends" disabled during the installation process. The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs debootstrap. I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it will take some time/effort to learn it. TIA
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 06:31:16AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 06/17/2020 06:12 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > >On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 04:53:45AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > >>On 06/17/2020 03:34 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > >>>[snip] > >>> > >>>A couple of those led me to disable recommends completely. It seems > >>>I'm a freak monster or sometning ;-@ > >>> > >> > >>Is there a way to totally disable recommends when installing Debian? > >>I wish to set up a machine for experimenting to find out what I > >>really want. Long long term I am considering using debootstrap to > >>install a extremely customized system. > > > >I have this in the file /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/95no-recommends: > > > > APT::Install-Recommends no: > > > > If I understand correctly, I need to add > /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/95no-recommends to the ISO of the installer's DVD1. When doing debootstrap, I usually tweak /etc/apt after having set up the base system and before installing packages (other things which go there are, e.g. the setup of an apt proxy/cache). Either manually, when tinkering or via a script. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On 06/17/2020 06:12 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 04:53:45AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: On 06/17/2020 03:34 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: [snip] A couple of those led me to disable recommends completely. It seems I'm a freak monster or sometning ;-@ Is there a way to totally disable recommends when installing Debian? I wish to set up a machine for experimenting to find out what I really want. Long long term I am considering using debootstrap to install a extremely customized system. I have this in the file /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/95no-recommends: APT::Install-Recommends no: If I understand correctly, I need to add /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/95no-recommends to the ISO of the installer's DVD1. TIA
Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]
On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 04:53:45AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 06/17/2020 03:34 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > >[snip] > > > >A couple of those led me to disable recommends completely. It seems > >I'm a freak monster or sometning ;-@ > > > > Is there a way to totally disable recommends when installing Debian? > I wish to set up a machine for experimenting to find out what I > really want. Long long term I am considering using debootstrap to > install a extremely customized system. I have this in the file /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/95no-recommends: APT::Install-Recommends no: Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
