Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[ken]

On 12/28/2015 01:59 AM, Gener Badenas wrote:



On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Gene Heskett > wrote:

Greetings all;

Do we have such a beast?

Thanks.




A quasi-cli utility called "units" does that.

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 29 December 2015 06:03:14 Joel Rees wrote:

> I don't believe I did this.
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Joel Rees  wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> >> A paste of what I entered:
> >>
> >> define vc(vs,t,r,c) {
> >> return vs * (1-e(-t/(r*c)))
> >> }
> >> for ( i=0.0; i<5.0; i += 0.1 ) { print i, ":", vc(120,i,83,.01
> >> ),"\n" } 0:0
> >
> > Sorry I missed that. Probably should stay off the list when I'm in a
> > hurry. Rip the 0:0 off the end and see how that works:
> >
> > for ( i=0.0; i<5.0; i += 0.1 ) { print i, ":", vc(120,i,83,.01
> > ),"\n" }
> >
> > Or you could unpack it  bit:
> >
> > for ( i=0.0; i<5.0; i += 0.1 ) {
> >   print i, ":", vc(120,i,83,.01 ),"\n"
> > }
> >
> > The units should be volts, seconds, ohms, and farads. I'm not
> > positive about farads, but the units were set up so that this
> > equation would work without conversion, as I recall.
> >
> > Adding current and power should look something like
> >
> > scale=5;
> > vs = 120;
> > r = 10;
> > c = .1;
> > for ( t=0.0; t<5.0; t += 0.1 ) {
>
> vc = vc(vs,t,r,c );
>
> >   vr = vs - vc;
> >   a = vr / r;
> >   p = vr * a;
> >   print"t: ", t, "  vc:", vc(vs,t,r,c ), "  a: ", a, "  p: ", p, 
> > "\n" }
> >
> >
> > --
> > Joel Rees
> >
> > Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
> > Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
> > http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html
>
> scale=5;
> vs = 120;
> r = 10;
> c = .1;
> for ( t=0.0; t<5.0; t += 0.1 ) {
>   vc = vc(vs,t,r,c );
>   vr = vs - vc;
>   a = vr / r;
>   p = vr * a;
>   print"t: ", t, "  vc:", vc(vs,t,r,c ), "  a: ", a, "  p: ", p,  "\n"
> }
Thank you Joel, I have learn more about bc than the man page will ever 
teach me.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Joel Rees]

erk.

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Joel Rees  wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 9:15 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> On Monday 28 December 2015 01:59:44 Gener Badenas wrote:
>>
>> Back on the list where this belongs.
>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Gene Heskett 
>> wrote:
>>> > Greetings all;
>>> >
>>> > Do we have such a beast?
>>> >
>>> > Thanks.
>>>
>>> There might be some projects in github that does this.
>>
>> Qucs seems to be the default plaything for such these days.  However I am
>> having a heck of a time making it work to actually do the simulation of
>> the charge-pump detection circuit I have drawn, basically 2 caps, 2
>> diodes and a loading R on the output.
>>
>> I have joined the qucs-help mailing list, but it appears I may be the
>> only subscriber.  No other activity in about 18 hours anyway.
>>
>> I've looked at git-hub a few times but it doesn't take long to get lost
>> in that corn maze.
>>
>>> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>>> > --
>>> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>>> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>>> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>>> > Some mill pix are at:
>>> > Genes Web page 
>
> So, Gene, did you try stackexchange, like Anders suggested some time back?
>
> On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Anders Andersson  wrote:
>> http://electronics.stackexchange.com/
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>
> Stackexchange does seem to be the default mail list for a lot of
> off-list support these days.
>
> Also, would something like this help?
>
> joel@joelsbox:~$ bc -l
> bc 1.06.95
> Copyright 1991-1994, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2004, 2006 Free Software
> Foundation, Inc.
> This is free software with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.
> For details type `warranty'.
>
> # code follows
> define vc(vs,t,r,c) {
> return vs * (1-e(-t/(r*c)))
> }
>
> # use follows
> for ( i=0.0; i<5.0; i += 0.1 ) { print i, ":", vc(120,i,83,.01 ), "\n" }
> 0:0
> .1:13.62082702075229745240
> .2:25.69559630209412900880
> .3:36.39979605263053873920
> .4:45.88899535985331237480
> ...

You said 51 ohm resistor, and t would make more sense than i, so make that

for ( t=0.0; t<5.0; t += 0.1 ) { print t, ": ", vc(120,t,51,.01 ), "\n" }

And you could calculate the power and current in the loop and print
that, as well.

>
> The -l option brings in the library, I don't remember if you needed
> that for the power of e function, e(), but it doesn't hurt.
>
> I refreshed my memory on the R time constant, and the associated
> calculus (which you can mostly ignore) here:

heh.

"RC time constant"

mea culpa

> http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_1.html
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_time_constant
>
> I'll try to play with your circuit using qucs on openbsd to see if I
> can shed some light on that. Too bad we don't have a debian package
> between squeeze (was it?) and sid.

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 29 December 2015 03:39:25 Joel Rees wrote:

> erk.
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Joel Rees  wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 9:15 PM, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> >> On Monday 28 December 2015 01:59:44 Gener Badenas wrote:
> >>
> >> Back on the list where this belongs.
> >>
> >>> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Gene Heskett
> >>> 
> >>
> >> wrote:
> >>> > Greetings all;
> >>> >
> >>> > Do we have such a beast?
> >>> >
> >>> > Thanks.
> >>>
> >>> There might be some projects in github that does this.
> >>
> >> Qucs seems to be the default plaything for such these days. 
> >> However I am having a heck of a time making it work to actually do
> >> the simulation of the charge-pump detection circuit I have drawn,
> >> basically 2 caps, 2 diodes and a loading R on the output.
> >>
> >> I have joined the qucs-help mailing list, but it appears I may be
> >> the only subscriber.  No other activity in about 18 hours anyway.
> >>
> >> I've looked at git-hub a few times but it doesn't take long to get
> >> lost in that corn maze.
> >>
> >>> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >>> > --
> >>> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >>> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> >>> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> >>> > Some mill pix are at:
> >>> > Genes Web page 
> >
> > So, Gene, did you try stackexchange, like Anders suggested some time
> > back?
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Anders Andersson 
 wrote:
> >> http://electronics.stackexchange.com/
> >>
> >> Hope this helps.
> >
> > Stackexchange does seem to be the default mail list for a lot of
> > off-list support these days.
> >
> > Also, would something like this help?
> >
> > joel@joelsbox:~$ bc -l
> > bc 1.06.95
> > Copyright 1991-1994, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2004, 2006 Free Software
> > Foundation, Inc.
> > This is free software with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.
> > For details type `warranty'.
> >
> > # code follows
> > define vc(vs,t,r,c) {
> > return vs * (1-e(-t/(r*c)))
> > }
> >
> > # use follows
> > for ( i=0.0; i<5.0; i += 0.1 ) { print i, ":", vc(120,i,83,.01
> > ), "\n" } 0:0
> > .1:13.62082702075229745240
> > .2:25.69559630209412900880
> > .3:36.39979605263053873920
> > .4:45.88899535985331237480
> > ...
>
> You said 51 ohm resistor, and t would make more sense than i, so make
> that
>
> for ( t=0.0; t<5.0; t += 0.1 ) { print t, ": ", vc(120,t,51,.01 ),
> "\n" }

The 51 ohm resistor is the surge limiter R, in series with the psu 
primary windings for a few seconds at powerup.  Has zero to do with this 
other than the SSR's triggered by this will turn the thing on and at 
some time after the psu's filters are charged, bypass the R with another 
identical SSR, a chinese equ to a 40 amp crydom block of epoxy.

The load R for these two identical circuits is 100k Ohms, to get a 
reasonable turnoff time when the 500 hz excitation stops.

> And you could calculate the power and current in the loop and print
> that, as well.
>
> > The -l option brings in the library, I don't remember if you needed
> > that for the power of e function, e(), but it doesn't hurt.
> >
> > I refreshed my memory on the R time constant, and the associated
> > calculus (which you can mostly ignore) here:
>
> heh.
>
> "RC time constant"
>
> mea culpa
>
> > http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_1.html
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_time_constant
> >
> > I'll try to play with your circuit using qucs on openbsd to see if I
> > can shed some light on that. Too bad we don't have a debian package
> > between squeeze (was it?) and sid.

I'd still like to make qucs work, just to learn how to run that puppy, 
but what hardware I have pasted together right now, looks as if it will 
do the job.

Thanks Joel.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Joel Rees]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
> A paste of what I entered:
>
> define vc(vs,t,r,c) {
> return vs * (1-e(-t/(r*c)))
> }
> for ( i=0.0; i<5.0; i += 0.1 ) { print i, ":", vc(120,i,83,.01 ),"\n" } 0:0

Sorry I missed that. Probably should stay off the list when I'm in a
hurry. Rip the 0:0 off the end and see how that works:

for ( i=0.0; i<5.0; i += 0.1 ) { print i, ":", vc(120,i,83,.01 ),"\n" }

Or you could unpack it  bit:

for ( i=0.0; i<5.0; i += 0.1 ) {
  print i, ":", vc(120,i,83,.01 ),"\n"
}

The units should be volts, seconds, ohms, and farads. I'm not positive
about farads, but the units were set up so that this equation would
work without conversion, as I recall.

Adding current and power should look something like

scale=5;
vs = 120;
r = 10;
c = .1;
for ( t=0.0; t<5.0; t += 0.1 ) {
  vr = vs - vc;
  a = vr / r;
  p = vr * a;
  print"t: ", t, "  vc:", vc(vs,t,r,c ), "  a: ", a, "  p: ", p,  "\n"
}


-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Joel Rees]

I don't believe I did this.

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Joel Rees  wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>>
>> A paste of what I entered:
>>
>> define vc(vs,t,r,c) {
>> return vs * (1-e(-t/(r*c)))
>> }
>> for ( i=0.0; i<5.0; i += 0.1 ) { print i, ":", vc(120,i,83,.01 ),"\n" } 0:0
>
> Sorry I missed that. Probably should stay off the list when I'm in a
> hurry. Rip the 0:0 off the end and see how that works:
>
> for ( i=0.0; i<5.0; i += 0.1 ) { print i, ":", vc(120,i,83,.01 ),"\n" }
>
> Or you could unpack it  bit:
>
> for ( i=0.0; i<5.0; i += 0.1 ) {
>   print i, ":", vc(120,i,83,.01 ),"\n"
> }
>
> The units should be volts, seconds, ohms, and farads. I'm not positive
> about farads, but the units were set up so that this equation would
> work without conversion, as I recall.
>
> Adding current and power should look something like
>
> scale=5;
> vs = 120;
> r = 10;
> c = .1;
> for ( t=0.0; t<5.0; t += 0.1 ) {

vc = vc(vs,t,r,c );

>   vr = vs - vc;
>   a = vr / r;
>   p = vr * a;
>   print"t: ", t, "  vc:", vc(vs,t,r,c ), "  a: ", a, "  p: ", p,  "\n"
> }
>
>
> --
> Joel Rees
>
> Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
> Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
> http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

scale=5;
vs = 120;
r = 10;
c = .1;
for ( t=0.0; t<5.0; t += 0.1 ) {
  vc = vc(vs,t,r,c );
  vr = vs - vc;
  a = vr / r;
  p = vr * a;
  print"t: ", t, "  vc:", vc(vs,t,r,c ), "  a: ", a, "  p: ", p,  "\n"
}

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

Gene Heskett wrote on 12/23/15 16:12:
> On Wednesday 23 December 2015 08:49:34 Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:
> 
>> e.g., Qucs
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quite_Universal_Circuit_Simulator
>>
>> Regards,
>> jvp.
> 
> Sounds like exactly what might be useful here. But no qucs exists in the 
> wheezy repos. Dowloaded src, will see if it will build on wheezy.
> 

Could you get Qucs working?

By the way, I just remember there's the Emacs builtin calculator "calc" which
a.o. can handle expressions with units.

Regards,
jvp.

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 28 December 2015 01:59:44 Gener Badenas wrote:

Back on the list where this belongs.

> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > Do we have such a beast?
> >
> > Thanks.
>
> There might be some projects in github that does this.

Qucs seems to be the default plaything for such these days.  However I am 
having a heck of a time making it work to actually do the simulation of 
the charge-pump detection circuit I have drawn, basically 2 caps, 2 
diodes and a loading R on the output.

I have joined the qucs-help mailing list, but it appears I may be the 
only subscriber.  No other activity in about 18 hours anyway.

I've looked at git-hub a few times but it doesn't take long to get lost 
in that corn maze.

> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > Some mill pix are at:
> > Genes Web page 


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 28 December 2015 04:30:06 Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote on 12/23/15 16:12:
> > On Wednesday 23 December 2015 08:49:34 Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:
> >> e.g., Qucs
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quite_Universal_Circuit_Simulator
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> jvp.
> >
> > Sounds like exactly what might be useful here. But no qucs exists in
> > the wheezy repos. Dowloaded src, will see if it will build on
> > wheezy.
>
> Could you get Qucs working?

Yes and no. I've drawn a schematic but cannot make it simulate it.  Going 
out to the workbench and building it with my limited junk box parts 
assortment results in a working circuit, if you don't mind your coffee 
being lukewarm by the time it fires. :(  I have extracted some more 
parts from scrap electronics, which may result in too fast a response, 
some 0.01 uF caps for the pump cap, and a couple .22 uF's for the 
storage cap, and 1n914 si diodes for test, but I have some schottky's, 
an assortment of tantalum caps, a few hexfets & such coming from 
aliexpress via China Post, but they'll be into 2016 by the time they get 
here.  And I haven't carved up a pcb to hold it all yet either. PCB I 
have, but I'll have to carve isolation islands by hand and surface mount 
the leaded parts. Thats time consuming when the mills spindle is 100x 
too slow to spin an etching tool correctly. 2" per minute or less. I 
have done it, using eagle for the drawing source, but the etching is 
similar to watching paint dry. I will likely use a 1/16" carbide mill so 
I don't have to retrace so many times to get an adequate separation of 
the copper. The std v tip etch tool only cuts a thou deep and wide 
unless you want to wear it out cutting the glass under the copper.
 
The qucs simulation is hampered by its lack of two part models, a decent 
hexfet, and a total lack of anything that looks like a 40 Amp SSR.  I 
tried to make an enhancement mode hexfet from an n channel MOSFET, but 
it wants the blanks filled in with info only the mask designer and 
silicon foundry would know.  In that regard, its obvious I don't know 
what the heck I am doing, darn it. 

> By the way, I just remember there's the Emacs builtin calculator
> "calc" which a.o. can handle expressions with units.

I've looked at units, and it could probably be scripted to do what I 
want, but I'd need a better grasp of math to do it and get results out 
of gnuplot by 1/31/16. :(  I can capture it on a digital scope in 10 
seconds once the soldering iron has pasted a test circuit together. :)

> Regards,
> jvp.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> And I haven't carved up a pcb to hold it all yet either.

I never do pcbs for this sort of thing.  I just solder point to point on
a breadboard.  Printed circuit boards are for production.
 
> The qucs simulation is hampered by its lack of two part models, a decent 
> hexfet, and a total lack of anything that looks like a 40 Amp SSR.

The circuit simulators in the Debian archive have libraries of models
for all these things.

BTW many SSRs can be driven directly by logic.  Here's one:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13015

And here's an application note:
http://www.wrcakron.com/catalog/10b_SSR_Applications.pdf
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 28 December 2015 12:35:01 John Hasler wrote:

> Gene writes:
> > And I haven't carved up a pcb to hold it all yet either.
>
> I never do pcbs for this sort of thing.  I just solder point to point
> on a breadboard.  Printed circuit boards are for production.

Which, since I was in the environs of a surviving radio shack this 
morning, I stopped in and picked up a couple breadboards.
>
> > The qucs simulation is hampered by its lack of two part models, a
> > decent hexfet, and a total lack of anything that looks like a 40 Amp
> > SSR.
>
> The circuit simulators in the Debian archive have libraries of models
> for all these things.
>
> BTW many SSRs can be driven directly by logic.  Here's one:
> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13015

What I have are clones of the crydom SSR, 3-32 volts & around 10 mills to 
fire them. I have it making about 1.35 volts into a 100k load right now, 
and since the shack didn't have any small hexfets, I've used some 
2na I had, and have put 100 ohms between the collector of a 2na 
and the - bolt, with about 18 volts connected to the + bolt.  Not tested 
yet, my back gave out, but probably by the time the day is done I'll 
know if it works.  Response time looks to be around 100 milliseconds, 
plenty fast enough when driven by my function generator set at 4.5 v 
p-p.  The Breakout Board can swing to nearly 5 volts, but probably 
capable of less current than the generator, which could slow the 
response, but this job can tolerate a seconds lag if it has to.

> And here's an application note:
> http://www.wrcakron.com/catalog/10b_SSR_Applications.pdf

I'll grab that, it could be educational.  Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gener Badenas]

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Greetings all;
>
> Do we have such a beast?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
There might be some projects in github that does this.


> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Some mill pix are at:
> Genes Web page 
>
>


-- 
Java  and Groovy

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Lisi Reisz]

On Thursday 24 December 2015 01:05:14 Bob Bernstein wrote:
> And I have to say, this electrical stuff is a lot sexier than
> poopy linux stuff!

 debian-u...@lists.debian.org ;-)

More _macho_ perhaps (my landlady got the neighbours out to see when I changed 
a fuse when I was 23 - definitely a job for the boys and what was a slip of a 
girl doing doing it).  But _sexy_?  Nah!  You fool yourselves if you think 
macho=sexy. ;-)

Lisi

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 24 December 2015 06:27:44 Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Thursday 24 December 2015 01:05:14 Bob Bernstein wrote:
> > And I have to say, this electrical stuff is a lot sexier than
> > poopy linux stuff!
>
>  debian-u...@lists.debian.org ;-)
>
> More _macho_ perhaps (my landlady got the neighbours out to see when I
> changed a fuse when I was 23 - definitely a job for the boys and what
> was a slip of a girl doing doing it).  But _sexy_?  Nah!  You fool
> yourselves if you think macho=sexy. ;-)
>
> Lisi

I think I have to agree with Lisi.  Being the neighborhood geek 20 years 
before the term was invented, sure made the girls hard to get. That 
resulted in a certain event in my life being several years late.

When I found, or vice versa, my first wife, a divorc`e with 2 kids, I 
thought I was set for life. That unfortunately only lasted 9 years, she 
had a stroke, blood clot in the left middle cerebral and she was right 
handed, and died at 34. Buried on our oldest daughters 9nth birthday. I 
had cake & ice cream but there was no merriment to celebrate that day.

But what a glorious 9 years. Officially about a 3rd grade education 
because northern Arkansas kids are needed in the cotton fields to work 
at the same time school is in session. But she was smart, the oldest of 
13, and was learning semiconductor theory from me at a good pace when 
the stroke occurred.  A good woman, and I miss her yet nearly half a 
century later.  She had enthusiastically gave me 3 children, 2 girls and 
a boy, but cancer took the girls and a Kia sedan mixed with a 5th took 
the boy just a year ago. So none of my first family now survive.  A man 
isn't supposed to outlive his kids, but I seem to have done it.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 22 December 2015 21:02:31 John Hasler wrote:

> Gene Heskett writes:
> > In this case, the size of a capacitor hooked to a square wave
> > source, and I want to know how much charge is transfered for every
> > full cycle of the input square wave.
>
> Zero assuming linear source and load impedence.

Ahh, but its being fed to a voltage-doubler with schottky diodes, so 
there should be a calculatable amount of charge delivered to the output 
capacitor Cf, by the pump capacitor Cp, per cycle.  With Cp being of a 
capacity such that with the usual logic circuits output impedance, 
capable of delivering 10 to 20 milliamps into a resistive load, IOW not 
a zero impedance source. Cf would be sized such as to be about 50x Cp, 
and will be driving an enhancement mode fet which will turn on a 40 amp 
SSR once the charge has built up on Cf to make the fet conduct.

A charge pump detector to control a 2 kw DC power supply startup, one 
turning it on but with a 51 ohm 200 watt resistor in series with the AC 
line, and another identical circuit turning on a 2nd 40 amp SSR to short 
circuit the 51 ohm 200 watt resistor but timed to be 5 seconds later, 
after the capacitors are charged up.  The PSU has a quite high 
capacitance input filter, and without this soft start timed power up, 
needs a 30 amp breaker in the service in order for the breaker to 
withstand the power up event. NEC says I can't service a duplex with 
more than a 15 amp breaker.  The actual draw, once powered up, doesn't 
exceed 15 amps even with a vacuum cleaner being powered by a similar 
circuit enabled that is plugged into this same 4-plex.

All part of a CNC milling machine setup.  And theres no reason for it to 
be enabled when the CNC control program isn't running.  The program will 
generate the 500 hz square wave these charge pump detectors will detect, 
and will control the time delay for the 2nd one. 1/4 to 1 second 
response time is not a concern for something like this.  It just needs 
to be 101% dependable. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Joe]

On Wed, 23 Dec 2015 05:09:18 -0500
Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Tuesday 22 December 2015 21:02:31 John Hasler wrote:
> 
> > Gene Heskett writes:  
> > > In this case, the size of a capacitor hooked to a square wave
> > > source, and I want to know how much charge is transfered for every
> > > full cycle of the input square wave.  
> >
> > Zero assuming linear source and load impedence.  
> 
> Ahh, but its being fed to a voltage-doubler with schottky diodes, so 
> there should be a calculatable amount of charge delivered to the
> output capacitor Cf, by the pump capacitor Cp, per cycle.  With Cp
> being of a capacity such that with the usual logic circuits output
> impedance, capable of delivering 10 to 20 milliamps into a resistive
> load, IOW not a zero impedance source. Cf would be sized such as to
> be about 50x Cp, and will be driving an enhancement mode fet which
> will turn on a 40 amp SSR once the charge has built up on Cf to make
> the fet conduct.
> 
>
Do it numerically with a spreadsheet.

It takes a while with any reasonably-sized spreadsheet, but you can
trust the result, you can see every stage and can spot anything
obviously wrong.

I once needed to analyse the start-up surge into a large capacitance
using a toroidal mains transformer, and given the non-linearity of the
rectifiers, I could see no other way. When results can reach hundreds of
amps for a millisecond or so, you don't want large piecewise-linear
approximations.

-- 
Joe

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 23 December 2015 06:47:39 Joe wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Dec 2015 05:09:18 -0500
>
> Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > On Tuesday 22 December 2015 21:02:31 John Hasler wrote:
> > > Gene Heskett writes:
> > > > In this case, the size of a capacitor hooked to a square wave
> > > > source, and I want to know how much charge is transfered for
> > > > every full cycle of the input square wave.
> > >
> > > Zero assuming linear source and load impedence.
> >
> > Ahh, but its being fed to a voltage-doubler with schottky diodes, so
> > there should be a calculatable amount of charge delivered to the
> > output capacitor Cf, by the pump capacitor Cp, per cycle.  With Cp
> > being of a capacity such that with the usual logic circuits output
> > impedance, capable of delivering 10 to 20 milliamps into a resistive
> > load, IOW not a zero impedance source. Cf would be sized such as to
> > be about 50x Cp, and will be driving an enhancement mode fet which
> > will turn on a 40 amp SSR once the charge has built up on Cf to make
> > the fet conduct.
>
> Do it numerically with a spreadsheet.
>
> It takes a while with any reasonably-sized spreadsheet, but you can
> trust the result, you can see every stage and can spot anything
> obviously wrong.
>
> I once needed to analyse the start-up surge into a large capacitance
> using a toroidal mains transformer, and given the non-linearity of the
> rectifiers, I could see no other way. When results can reach hundreds
> of amps for a millisecond or so, you don't want large piecewise-linear
> approximations.

True, but all I am interested in, and the transformers involved are 
toroids, 4 of them good for half a kw each, is limiting the input surge 
to 127/51=2.49019607843 amps at the initial turn on with the 51 ohm R in 
series with their combined primaries.  Then however many seconds later 
when those caps are at 90% or better charge and long before I or the 
code starts the spindle, shorts the 51 ohm resistor allowing full 
current flow.  It could be in excess of a minute because the first 
operation is homing the machine, one axis at a time, which depending on 
where it was when last powered down, could take up to a full minute to 
do. The spindle power at full song is not a requirement until that is 
done.  And because of the acoustic noise from both the spindle and 
vacuum, I don't normally start the spindle and vacuum until it is in 
position to start cutting with the next commanded move. I am the one 
writing the code.

So I don't need to analyse it microsecond by microsecond, just control it 
to a defined peak current draw. In this case I could use a lower 
resistor value R but thats what I have available in my "junk box" 
without ordering online.  It will catch 316.254901961 instant watts when 
the caps are at 0 volts, more than its 200 watt rating, but not for long 
enough to blow the glaze off it over time as that instantaineous power 
will drop rapidly as the caps charge up to working voltage.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

Maybe you find something among the software listed here:

Wikipedia:WikiProject Electronics/Programs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Electronics/Programs

e.g., Qucs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quite_Universal_Circuit_Simulator

Regards,
jvp.

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 23 December 2015 08:49:34 Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:

> Maybe you find something among the software listed here:
>
> Wikipedia:WikiProject Electronics/Programs - Wikipedia, the free
> encyclopedia
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Electronics/Progra
>ms
>
> e.g., Qucs
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quite_Universal_Circuit_Simulator
>
> Regards,
> jvp.

Sounds like exactly what might be useful here. But no qucs exists in the 
wheezy repos. Dowloaded src, will see if it will build on wheezy.

Thank you Jörg-Volker Peetz.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[David Christensen]

On 12/23/2015 02:39 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Don't have [DC current probe].  Lots of bucks for a good one.

...

Do have [digital sampling oscilloscope], 2 channel gigasampler


How about using a current shunt, and measuring millivolts?



I'll look [up Electric charge on Wikipedia], thanks David.


YW.


David

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[John Hasler]

David writes:
> So, you want to connect a 120 VAC, 30 A CNC milling machine and a 120
> VAC, unknown current vacuum cleaner to a single 120 V 15 A branch
> circuit.

No.  He wants to power a 16A mill.  His problem is high inrush on
startup of a DC supply.  Soft-start is a reasonable way to solve it.  He
should use a 20A breaker, though.  15A receptacles are ok on 20A
circuits (though I'd use 20A receptacles and plugs here).

The 2kW is probably peak load.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 23 December 2015 13:22:14 David Christensen wrote:

> On 12/23/2015 02:09 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Ahh, but its being fed to a voltage-doubler with schottky diodes ...
> > The PSU has a quite high
> > capacitance input filter, and without this soft start timed power
> > up, needs a 30 amp breaker in the service in order for the breaker
> > to withstand the power up event. NEC says I can't service a duplex
> > with more than a 15 amp breaker.  The actual draw, once powered up,
> > doesn't exceed 15 amps even with a vacuum cleaner being powered by a
> > similar circuit enabled that is plugged into this same 4-plex.
> > All part of a CNC milling machine setup. ...
>
> So, you want to connect a 120 VAC, 30 A CNC milling machine and a 120
> VAC, unknown current vacuum cleaner to a single 120 V 15 A branch
> circuit.
>
>
> I suppose you could read a power electronics book, and design and
> build a device that accepts 120 VAC, 15 A steady-state input and
> provides 120 VAC, 15 A steady-state output with the ability to output
> much more current for short periods.  Such a product may already
> exist.  If not, you might be able to make and sell them.
>
>
> But, the KISS solution is obvious -- install a 30 ampere circuit
> breaker, wiring, and receptacle for the CNC machine (or hire an
> electrician to do so).

I am a CET. I do my own wiring on small projects. I even put a 200 amp 
service in here back in 2007 or so, putting the house as a subcircuit. 
The only thing I needed an electrician for was to do the drop seal break 
& disconnect, install a heavier drop to the new meterhead, the inspector 
came, liked what he saw and signed off, dead time to crimping the new 
seal a couple hours.  Besides, powered up, spindle turning no load at 
500 revs, the amprobe draw (w/o the vacuum) is around 2.65 amps, on 
either amprobe, I have 2.

Its just the inrush that needs curtailed. Once thats done I'll swap the 
30A breaker back out for a 20A I have laying there ready to be put back 
in where it came out.
>
> David

And Qucs is still building.  Sigh.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[John Hasler]

Gene H writes:
> The only thing I needed an electrician for was to do the drop seal
> break & disconnect, install a heavier drop to the new meterhead, the
> inspector came...

Electricians, permits and inspectors eh?  I guess when you have
oppressive government you just have to live with these things.  I redid
the farm with buried cable and put in a new service and all I had to do
was give Excel a written assertion that I had complied with code.
-- 
John "Permits?  We don't need no stinkin permits." Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[David Christensen]

On 12/23/2015 02:09 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Ahh, but its being fed to a voltage-doubler with schottky diodes ...
The PSU has a quite high
capacitance input filter, and without this soft start timed power up,
needs a 30 amp breaker in the service in order for the breaker to
withstand the power up event. NEC says I can't service a duplex with
more than a 15 amp breaker.  The actual draw, once powered up, doesn't
exceed 15 amps even with a vacuum cleaner being powered by a similar
circuit enabled that is plugged into this same 4-plex.
All part of a CNC milling machine setup. ...


So, you want to connect a 120 VAC, 30 A CNC milling machine and a 120 
VAC, unknown current vacuum cleaner to a single 120 V 15 A branch circuit.



I suppose you could read a power electronics book, and design and build 
a device that accepts 120 VAC, 15 A steady-state input and provides 120 
VAC, 15 A steady-state output with the ability to output much more 
current for short periods.  Such a product may already exist.  If not, 
you might be able to make and sell them.



But, the KISS solution is obvious -- install a 30 ampere circuit 
breaker, wiring, and receptacle for the CNC machine (or hire an 
electrician to do so).



David

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 23 December 2015 20:05:14 Bob Bernstein wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Dec 2015, John Hasler wrote:
> > John "Permits?  We don't need no stinkin permits." Hasler
>
> Reminds me of "Don't RTFM! Wing that sucker!"
>
> Haven't heard/seen that in a long time.
>
> And I have to say, this electrical stuff is a lot sexier than
> poopy linux stuff!

Try telling that to a couple school bus-loads of 7nth graders.  They 
thought that was the best standup comedy they'd heard in ages.  Its no 
wonder that people like me get accused of walking on water, we are a 
dying breed.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 23 December 2015 20:33:57 John Hasler wrote:

> Bob Bernstein writes:
> > And I have to say, this electrical stuff is a lot sexier than poopy
> > linux stuff!
>
> I could bore you to tears in 15 minutes with anecdotes about hospital
> wiring design.

Having read some of the extra's for that, its no wonder the bid estimates 
are 400% of what the takeoff guy totals up.  And my little red pocket 
hot wire sniffer still manages to go berzerk when within sensing 
distance to some of the innocent looking stuff sitting on the prep rooms 
counters.  I found 4 of those flashlight things they put a plastic cup 
over to look into an ear, that could be lethal so far.  All maintained 
by some contractor & the Doc his self was powerless to do anything about 
it.  Scary, tain't it?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Bob Bernstein]

On Wed, 23 Dec 2015, Gene Heskett wrote:


Try telling that to a couple school bus-loads of 7nth graders.


I am struggling to understand what possible, unholy, 
agglomeration of powers and principalities might ever induce me 
even to get that close to a couple of 'em! I'll take a pass on 
that if it's okay with _everyone_ around here.


Its no wonder that people like me get accused of walking on 
water, we are a dying breed.


d00D! You nailed it! 

--
Bob Bernstein

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Bob Bernstein]

On Wed, 23 Dec 2015, John Hasler wrote:


John "Permits?  We don't need no stinkin permits." Hasler


Reminds me of "Don't RTFM! Wing that sucker!"

Haven't heard/seen that in a long time.

And I have to say, this electrical stuff is a lot sexier than 
poopy linux stuff!


--
Bob Bernstein

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gary Roach]

On 12/22/2015 06:02 PM, John Hasler wrote:

Gene Heskett writes:

In this case, the size of a capacitor hooked to a square wave source,
and I want to know how much charge is transfered for every full cycle
of the input square wave.

Zero assuming linear source and load impedence.
And assuming the square wave is symetrical about zero. If I recall Q=CV 
where C is in farads, V in volts and Q is in coulombs. With R (circuit 
resistance) = zero. The Voltage on C will instantly be the supply 
voltage an Q=CV applies. In short, it is a steady state problem. If R is 
not zero then there is a charging time constant involved. But if the on 
period of the square wave is at least 5 times the time constant of the 
circuit, it's still a steady state problem. As I recall the TC = RC 
seconds. If the period of the wave is less than 5 times the TC then 
things get more complicated. Look up time constant in wikipedia will 
probably give you the answer. In any event, any scientific calculator 
will do the job.


Gary R.

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[John Hasler]

Gary Roach writes:
> And assuming the square wave is symetrical about zero.

The steady-state net charge transferred per cycle will be zero
regardless of waveform.  It's a capacitor.  No DC component.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[John Hasler]

Bob Bernstein writes:
> And I have to say, this electrical stuff is a lot sexier than poopy
> linux stuff!

I could bore you to tears in 15 minutes with anecdotes about hospital
wiring design.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[John Hasler]

Gene H writes:
> Having read some of the extra's for that, its no wonder the bid
> estimates are 400% of what the takeoff guy totals up.

We had an in-house construction operation for small projects of the sort
I designed.  They were mostly pretty good but my biggest problems came
from their attempts to save money, such as using left-over 90 ohm IT
coax for a CATV project instead of the 70 cable I had specified.  The
hospital was horribly mismanaged, though.

> And my little red pocket hot wire sniffer still manages to go berzerk
> when within sensing distance to some of the innocent looking stuff
> sitting on the prep rooms counters.  I found 4 of those flashlight
> things they put a plastic cup over to look into an ear, that could be
> lethal so far.

No, not really.  That devices is only useful for finding energized wires
behind walls.  It tells you nothing about lethality.  All sorts of
harmless things can set it off.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 23 December 2015 21:19:33 John Hasler wrote:

> Gene H writes:
> > Having read some of the extra's for that, its no wonder the bid
> > estimates are 400% of what the takeoff guy totals up.
>
> We had an in-house construction operation for small projects of the
> sort I designed.  They were mostly pretty good but my biggest problems
> came from their attempts to save money, such as using left-over 90 ohm
> IT coax for a CATV project instead of the 70 cable I had specified. 
> The hospital was horribly mismanaged, though.
>
> > And my little red pocket hot wire sniffer still manages to go
> > berzerk when within sensing distance to some of the innocent looking
> > stuff sitting on the prep rooms counters.  I found 4 of those
> > flashlight things they put a plastic cup over to look into an ear,
> > that could be lethal so far.
>
> No, not really.  That devices is only useful for finding energized
> wires behind walls.  It tells you nothing about lethality.  All sorts
> of harmless things can set it off.

My final test for potential lethality is to make sure I am insulated, 
then brush the back of my hand against it very gently. If it feels like 
it is vibrating as the back of your hand slides against it, its too hot 
to get between it and a grounded object.

The back of ones hand is amazingly sensitive to that sort of thing, and 
it might save your life to remember that, everybody reading this.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[John Hasler]

Gene H writes:
> Here in Wv, jumper cables across the meter socket have been a problem,
> so a broken seal on the meters retaining ring is a felony. Its also a
> felony in several other states I have lived and worked in.

Well, sure.  When I rewired the farm with buried cable and put in the
new service and meter socket the Excel guys who plowed in the
underground drop plugged in the new meter and put on a seal.  This was
all coordinated with the re-routing of their feeder from across my farm
to along the road.  Breaking the seal is not, in and of itself, a crime
here, though.  Jumpering the meter is theft, of course.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Anders Andersson]

http://electronics.stackexchange.com/

Hope this helps.

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 23 December 2015 19:25:40 John Hasler wrote:

> Gene H writes:
> > Here in Wv, jumper cables across the meter socket have been a
> > problem, so a broken seal on the meters retaining ring is a felony.
> > Its also a felony in several other states I have lived and worked
> > in.
>
> Well, sure.  When I rewired the farm with buried cable and put in the
> new service and meter socket the Excel guys who plowed in the
> underground drop plugged in the new meter and put on a seal.  This was
> all coordinated with the re-routing of their feeder from across my
> farm to along the road.  Breaking the seal is not, in and of itself, a
> crime here, though.  Jumpering the meter is theft, of course.

Which all boils down to "when in Rome..." ;-)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 23 December 2015 17:57:02 Gary Roach wrote:

> On 12/22/2015 06:02 PM, John Hasler wrote:
> > Gene Heskett writes:
> >> In this case, the size of a capacitor hooked to a square wave
> >> source, and I want to know how much charge is transfered for every
> >> full cycle of the input square wave.
> >
> > Zero assuming linear source and load impedence.
>
> And assuming the square wave is symetrical about zero.

plus or minus, at random, but  within 10 u-secs of 50%.

> If I recall 
> Q=CV where C is in farads, V in volts and Q is in coulombs. With R
> (circuit resistance) = zero. The Voltage on C will instantly be the
> supply voltage an Q=CV applies. In short, it is a steady state
> problem. If R is not zero then there is a charging time constant
> involved.

> But if the on period of the square wave is at least 5 times 
> the time constant of the circuit, it's still a steady state problem.

> As I recall the TC = RC seconds. If the period of the wave is less
> than 5 times the TC then things get more complicated. Look up time
> constant in wikipedia will probably give you the answer. In any event,
> any scientific calculator will do the job.

I was hoping to get that sort of an answer, but my button pushing on a 
TI-30X||S very rapidly degenerates into answers that are a factor of at 
least 100 million from something useful.  Sure t=rc, where c is in 
farads and t is in seconds, but r in this case, in series with the 
square wave input and Cp is an unknown.

I now have a test wire on the BoB that I was using to watch the signal 
come and go on queue with a Ds101 pocket scope, essentially proving 
my .hal chain of command works, but that was as far as I got today, I'd 
found some 2000 grit wet-r-dry and seeing how that works to level up an 
air brush laid but spotty finish on some poor mahogany, and busy putting 
drops in the XYL's eyes breaks my chain of thought.  She's had cataract 
operations on both eyes in the last 10 days.  First one is working 
great, but the jury is still out on the 2nd one yet.

> Gary R.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 23 December 2015 21:07:34 Bob Bernstein wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Dec 2015, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Try telling that to a couple school bus-loads of 7nth graders.
>
> I am struggling to understand what possible, unholy,
> agglomeration of powers and principalities might ever induce me
> even to get that close to a couple of 'em! I'll take a pass on
> that if it's okay with _everyone_ around here.
>
Amazingly, they actually paid a reasonable level of attention as I was 
giving them a synopsis of how television actually worked, in words they 
should understand.  It wasn't until I made the statement that I was 
fairly well paid, and by the time I am ready to retire, I'll have some 
input into choosing my replacement, and it would be nice to have a few 
of them in the stack of resumes on my desk, nipping at my heels to get 
such a job.  The news studio we were in exploded.  I asked why, and one 
boy, apparently accustomed to being the class clown, said "who in his 
right mind, would want such a job?" I replied, just loud enough he heard 
me, "you, if you can muster the IQ it takes, but you just demoed that 
you don't". 65 kids were holding their breath for the next few seconds 
but he had no reparte to that.

I came away with a lot less respect for the generation that will, or is, 
now running the show.

> > Its no wonder that people like me get accused of walking on
> > water, we are a dying breed.
>
> d00D! You nailed it! 
 
I'd like to think so.  My youngest, now north of 30, introduced me to the 
rest of the gang in his place of work, including his employer, by 
stating that "in any building I was in, my dad is the smartest one in 
the building."  He's obviously easily impressed.  And despite that it 
has happened in similar words before, it took me by total surprise.

How many others here can claim to have wired the house his father was 
building in 1946, at the age of 12.  How many others can claim that the 
tv cameras on the Trieste, when it went down into the mohole in Feburary 
1960, 37000 feet deep in the pacific, had their finger prints on the 
pcb's in it?  Its a pretty exclusive club and I would recognize most of 
the names yet.  Or tested the fuel pressure regulators for the original 
rocket (Atlas?) that gave John Glenn his first ride to the edge of 
space?

There has been quite a list of BTDT's over the last 67 years while trying 
to earn a living, not all of which were so "romantic", but you do what 
you have to do to keep groceries in the house & the utilitis turned on.

I guess that is one of the trade marks of a "doer".  And I'm 
still 'doing'.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 23 December 2015 14:33:39 John Hasler wrote:

> Gene H writes:
> > The only thing I needed an electrician for was to do the drop seal
> > break & disconnect, install a heavier drop to the new meterhead, the
> > inspector came...
>
> Electricians, permits and inspectors eh?  I guess when you have
> oppressive government you just have to live with these things.  I
> redid the farm with buried cable and put in a new service and all I
> had to do was give Excel a written assertion that I had complied with
> code.

Here in Wv, jumper cables across the meter socket have been a problem, so 
a broken seal on the meters retaining ring is a felony. Its also a 
felony in several other states I have lived and worked in.

But to my knowledge, the NEC code has only been in effect since the later 
80's. You would be aghast at some stuff thats grandfathered in, lioke 
our old transmitter site. 4 pieces of 750mcm alu come from the 
substation pole, with no building disconnect between them and the hot 
side of a GE AK-225 3 phase plate breaker/relay, which feeds a 50kw 
transformer delivering a rectified 7200 volts for the transmitters final 
amplifiers.  We've burned out that 750 mcm and the entry weatherhead 
twice on my watch because Burndy can't make a crimp sleeve for that size 
that maintains a 'gas tight' connection to an alu cable over the years. 
Its the power companies cable, but copper costs lots more so they will 
just replace it when it gets cooked. The list at that site goes on, but 
its now retired and the only power on is for the tower lights, still 
required.

This house, build as a kit by National Homes in 1975, is not and never 
will be 100% compliant to the NEC.  When we had an extra fire door 
installed as an escape route in the back bedroom, I had the installer 
add a duplex on each side of it because every other duplex in the whole 
house is mid-wall and totally in-accessible without moving hundreds of 
lbs of furniture. Just to plug in the vacuum cleaner?  Screw 'em, I'll 
put them where they CAN be used. Its paid for, all ours, and well 
insured.  I treat it like it was Los Vegas, what happens here, stays 
here.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 22 December 2015 20:52:59 John Hasler wrote:

> Units may be what you want:
>
> You have: (.007 coulomb)/(119 volt)
> You want: farad
> * 5.8823529e-05
> / 17000
> You have: (14 ampere)*(2.3 second)
> You want: coulomb
> * 32.2
> / 0.031055901

Installed it.  Now I need to teach myself how to use it.  I have to plead 
lack of formal education on the subject, I have only spent the last 65+ 
years doing electronic magic, generally making other folks designs work 
again, or if I have to put the smoke back in after the mirror broke the 
third time, redesign it for much stronger mirrors.

All on an 8th grade education and the ability to read phonetically. Its 
been quite a ride so far, but I had a pulmonary embolism a year ago last 
May that almost punched my ticket and which may have slowed me down. I 
hope I can manage to learn this too.

Thanks John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 22 December 2015 22:33:53 Bob Bernstein wrote:

> http://www.wolframalpha.com is fun.

Looks like it, thanks Bob.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 22 December 2015 21:17:47 David Christensen wrote:

> On 12/22/2015 05:43 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > ... the size of a capacitor hooked to a square wave source, and I
> > want to know how much charge is transfered for every full cycle of
> > the input square wave.
>
> Use a DC current probe,

Don't have one of them critters. Lots of bucks for a good one.

> use a digital sampling oscilloscope,

Do have that, 2 channel gigasampler

> and  
> perform a numerical integration according to the third equation
> presented on the Wikipedia "Electric charge" page:
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_charge#Conservation_of_electric
>_charge

I'll look that up, thanks David.
>
> David


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 22 December 2015 20:31:50 rlhar...@oplink.net wrote:

> On Tue, December 22, 2015 7:09 pm, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs
>
> Look for "Weber" as well as for "Coulumb".
>
> Russ

That too is a new term to me, how does it translate?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Some mill pix are at:
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene/GO704-pix>

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[John Hasler]

Units may be what you want:

You have: (.007 coulomb)/(119 volt)
You want: farad
* 5.8823529e-05
/ 17000
You have: (14 ampere)*(2.3 second)
You want: coulomb
* 32.2
/ 0.031055901




-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[John Hasler]

Gene Heskett writes:
> In this case, the size of a capacitor hooked to a square wave source,
> and I want to know how much charge is transfered for every full cycle
> of the input square wave.

Zero assuming linear source and load impedence.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[David Christensen]

On 12/22/2015 05:43 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

... the size of a capacitor hooked to a square wave source, and I
want to know how much charge is transfered for every full cycle of
the input square wave.


Use a DC current probe, use a digital sampling oscilloscope, and perform 
a numerical integration according to the third equation presented on the 
Wikipedia "Electric charge" page:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_charge#Conservation_of_electric_charge


David

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[rlharris]

On Tue, December 22, 2015 7:09 pm, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

Look for "Weber" as well as for "Coulumb".

Russ

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Jimmy Johnson]

On 12/22/2015 05:09 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

Do we have such a beast?

Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



Free on the web: http://www.endmemo.com/physics/coulomb.php
--
Debian Jessie - KDE 4.14.2  - EXT4 - AMD64 at sda10
Registered Linux User #380263

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 22 December 2015 20:17:58 Jimmy Johnson wrote:

> On 12/22/2015 05:09 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > Do we have such a beast?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> Free on the web: http://www.endmemo.com/physics/coulomb.php

That might be interesting, but at first glance, is not applicable to what 
I want to experiment with. In this case, the size of a capacitor hooked 
to a square wave source, and I want to know how much charge is 
transfered for every full cycle of the input square wave.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Some mill pix are at:
Genes Web page 

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Charlie Kravetz]

On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 20:09:55 -0500
Gene Heskett  wrote:

>Greetings all;
>
>Do we have such a beast?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Cheers, Gene Heskett

I honestly do not know the answer, but speedcrunch is a neat calculator
with many features. Online docs suck, but the readme is pretty good.

-- 
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914
[http://linuxcounter.net/user/425914.html]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM.   [http://keepingdreams.com]

Re: Need a calculator that knows about coulombs

[Bob Bernstein]

http://www.wolframalpha.com is fun.

--
Bob Bernstein