Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[David Christensen]

On 4/27/22 05:24, Will Mengarini wrote:

* Tom Browder  [22-04/27=We 05:50 -0500]:

I really appreciate all the advice, but I am
not going to build from scratch again [...].


Just in case anybody's discouraged that the OP won't build from
scratch, I just want to say /I/ found this thread valuable too.

Where do you all buy parts?  Alternatives to Newegg?



For new items, mostly Amazon just because we are paying for Prime.  I 
prefer B when they have what I need.  And, Newegg and other companies 
have a presence on eBay.



For used items, mostly eBay.  But, I did get my Dell PowerEdge T30 from 
a local seller via Craig's List.



David

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[David Christensen]

On 4/27/22 03:50, Tom Browder wrote:

On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 08:49 Christian Britz  wrote:
...

I really appreciate all the advice, but I am not going to build from
scratch again (but I will encourage my grandchildren if they ever get
interested).  In that vein, the link on the modern build-your-own case
(Fractal Design) from David was very helpful--thanks!



YW



So, if I need a new in-home server, I think I will go the Dell route. The
multiple easy in/out drives capability is just what I need for my
redundancy case (and ease of use) and assume I can add SSDs from my own
sources instead.



If your COTS server has spare internal or hot-plug drive bays, 
backplanes, cables, PSU capacity, etc., and you have the appropriate 
drive carriers, then you can install additional standard drives and they 
should work.  But, beware of warranty entanglements.



Going the other way, when you remove a drive in a COTS server, you may 
need to install a filler so that cooling works as engineered.



I have been using SATA 2.5" SSD's as OS drives for many years.  I 
install 2.5" SATA trayless drive racks in all of my desktop and server 
machines (including the Fractal Design):


https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/hsb220sat25b


For machines without an available external drive bay (including the Dell 
PowerEdge T30), I install a PCI slot version:


https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/s25slotr


(My older laptops have externally accessible 2.5" SATA drive bays.)


My SSD's do not get heavy use, so passive cooling is enough.  If your 
SSD's get heavy use, pay attention to cooling.



For backup disks, I have experienced numerous issues with external disk 
drives; primarily disconnects, but also overheating.  I install 3.5" 
SATA drive racks in appropriate machines (including the Fractal Design) 
and put 3.5" SATA drives in drawers with fans:


https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/drw150satbk


(I tried 3.5" SATA trayless bays, but cooling was inadequate.)


That said, racks, backplanes, etc., add more opportunities for failure. 
 The most reliable approach is internal drives with good quality 
cables.  This is how my data drives are connected.



When shopping, be sure to look at barebone NAS products that are 
designed for a home environment -- e.g. small, energy efficient, quiet, 
etc..



David

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[Will Mengarini]

* Tom Browder  [22-04/27=We 05:50 -0500]:
> I really appreciate all the advice, but I am
> not going to build from scratch again [...].

Just in case anybody's discouraged that the OP won't build from
scratch, I just want to say /I/ found this thread valuable too.

Where do you all buy parts?  Alternatives to Newegg?

-- 
 Will Mengarini  
 Free software: the Source will be with you, always.

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[Tom Browder]

On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 08:49 Christian Britz  wrote:
...

I really appreciate all the advice, but I am not going to build from
scratch again (but I will encourage my grandchildren if they ever get
interested).  In that vein, the link on the modern build-your-own case
(Fractal Design) from David was very helpful--thanks!

So, if I need a new in-home server, I think I will go the Dell route. The
multiple easy in/out drives capability is just what I need for my
redundancy case (and ease of use) and assume I can add SSDs from my own
sources instead.

Best regards, and thanks again to all of you,

-Tom

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[Christian Britz]

On 2022-04-26 15:28 UTC+0200, Stefan Monnier wrote:

> As a Debian user who considers current computer hardware should have a life
> expectancy of at least 10 years, my main question w.r.t to those beasts
> is what part of the hardware is supported by the vanilla Linux kernel
> (since that's generally the best guarantee around of long term support).
> 
> IIUC RK3339 is fairly well supported (thanks in large part to some
> Chromebooks, IIRC), right?  What about the wifi/BT?

I can only talk about the Raspi 4B, which is well supported by the
kernel in Debian stable, I don't use Wifi/BT, but they are supposed to
work. See also https://wiki.debian.org/RaspberryPi4. Hardware
accelerated 3D seems to be missing, I personally don't need it on my
headless home server, it has never been attached to a display. There is
a friendly community in #debian-raspberrypi on IRC. AFAIK there is work
ongoing to support 3D acceleration. As a starting point for
installation, I can recommend the images provided at
http://raspi.debian.net.

Christian

-- 
http://www.cb-fraggle.de

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[Christian Britz]

On 2022-04-26 10:49 UTC+0200, Jeremy Ardley wrote:

> I also use a fanless home server, but it's definitely no slouch.
> 
> My one is a NanoPi M4V2 usingRockchip RK3399 64-bit Dual Core Cortex-A72 + 
> Quad Core Cortex-A53 It 
[...]
> snappy. It gets 12.47 seconds in the hardinfo n-queens test which is 
> slightly slower than an Intel Core-2 Duo T7250 @ 2GHz What does the 
> RPi4B get on hardinfo? -- 

12.06 - not too bad compared to the 7.33 of the Intel Core i5-1035G1 of
my IdeaPad! :-)

-- 
http://www.cb-fraggle.de

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 10:25:46AM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:

I am looking for a commercial grade server (for home use) to replace my
remote ones. I am looking at Dell's site and an almost-empty chassis with a
low-end Intel, 1 TB SATA, and 8 Gb ECC  RAM is in the $800 ball park. It
looks very upgradeable.

Anyone have any suggestions on whether to buy or not? I would add at least
two 1 Tb SSD from Crucial to it.


I don't think you've provided enough information about how you want to
use it and any other constraints (noise, space, energy cost) which play
into the decision making, but here's a write-up of my home server in
case it's any use:



--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
   https://jmtd.net

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[Jeremy Ardley]

On 26/4/22 2:56 pm, Christian Britz wrote:


On 2022-04-25 23:58 UTC+0200, Stefan Monnier wrote:


That's quite vague.  I myself use a BananaPi as home server with good
results (for my use case anyway), but I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't
cover half the needs of some other people's notion of "home server".

I agree with Stefan. I am using myself a fanless Raspberry PI 4B as a
home server and it is perfectly able to serve DLNA, files, low traffic
web and an IRC proxy, most of the times it is idling.



I also use a fanless home server, but it's definitely no slouch.

My one is a NanoPi M4V2 usingRockchip RK3399 64-bit Dual Core Cortex-A72 + Quad Core Cortex-A53 It 
also has a very fast NVME drive (Though you still have to keep your boot 
sector on the SD) The good things about it are 4 GB RAM, 4 USB3 ports, 
Gigabit LAN, Wireless LAN and bluetooth (plus heaps extra to make it a 
workstation). It runs armbian out of the box. It seems to be very 
snappy. It gets 12.47 seconds in the hardinfo n-queens test which is 
slightly slower than an Intel Core-2 Duo T7250 @ 2GHz What does the 
RPi4B get on hardinfo? -- 


Jeremy



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[Christian Britz]

On 2022-04-25 23:58 UTC+0200, Stefan Monnier wrote:

> That's quite vague.  I myself use a BananaPi as home server with good
> results (for my use case anyway), but I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't
> cover half the needs of some other people's notion of "home server".

I agree with Stefan. I am using myself a fanless Raspberry PI 4B as a
home server and it is perfectly able to serve DLNA, files, low traffic
web and an IRC proxy, most of the times it is idling.

The "commercial grade" beast which you describe sounds very different to
a "normal" home server use case, so you should maybe better describe the
scenario for the operation of the server. If it is supposed to host high
traffic websites, your home internet connection might be the limiting
factor anyway, not the hardware specs.

Regards,
Christian

-- 
http://www.cb-fraggle.de

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[David Christensen]

On 4/25/22 18:57, Felix Miata wrote:

Tom Browder composed on 2022-04-25 18:30 (UTC-0400):


I'm now 78 and don't do serious building any more--I stand a good chance of
frying a CPU! And I wouldn't trust any of my friends, either ;-D


IMO, almost everyone who can admin a server can build one. It's a lot simpler 
than
it was 30-40 years ago, a matter of assembling a modest number of parts (in 
rough
order for a tower form factor):

1: open the new case & lie on side



... on a cloth on a table, under good lighting.


Use laptop and open new system administration log file in editor.  Put 
on reading glasses.  Attach anti-static wrist strap.




2: pop I/O shield into place
3: lay motherboard into place
4: insert screws to hold motherboard to case (4-12 count)
5: position & affix power supply with 4 screws
6: attach CPU & main power cables to motherboard
7: Drop CPU into socket (thermal paste substitute has already been applied to 
new
ones), & clamp it down.
8: install CPU cooler
9: install RAM
10: drop NVME(s) into socket(s) & insert 1 screw (each)



I prefer to build the motherboard, processor, heat sink, fan, memory 
modules, M.2/ NVMe drive(s), etc., into an assembly, and then install 
the assembly into the case.




11: affix any additional internal storage devices (& optionally RAID controller)
12: position & attach the rest of the power & control cables
13: (optional) add discrete GPU
14: (optional) add more fan(s)



I do fans, drive racks, case modifications, etc., after step #1, above.



Optionally, CPU, RAM & NVME(s), & most CPU cooler types, can be installed to
motherboard before laying it into case. 



+1



Often times the CPU power cable can be
difficult to install before the CPU cooler, or the PS itself.



Water cooling, air ducts, etc..



From here on, it's like a store-bought PC with cover off and no operating 
system.
Attach keyboard, rodent, screen, installation media, & power it up.



The Fractal Design Define R5 manual has good build instructions (and 
shows the product design/ engineering thinking that went into this chassis):


https://www.fractal-design.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Define-R5-manual.pdf


David

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[Felix Miata]

Tom Browder composed on 2022-04-25 18:30 (UTC-0400):

> I'm now 78 and don't do serious building any more--I stand a good chance of
> frying a CPU! And I wouldn't trust any of my friends, either ;-D

IMO, almost everyone who can admin a server can build one. It's a lot simpler 
than
it was 30-40 years ago, a matter of assembling a modest number of parts (in 
rough
order for a tower form factor):

1: open the new case & lie on side
2: pop I/O shield into place
3: lay motherboard into place
4: insert screws to hold motherboard to case (4-12 count)
5: position & affix power supply with 4 screws
6: attach CPU & main power cables to motherboard
7: Drop CPU into socket (thermal paste substitute has already been applied to 
new
ones), & clamp it down.
8: install CPU cooler
9: install RAM
10: drop NVME(s) into socket(s) & insert 1 screw (each)
11: affix any additional internal storage devices (& optionally RAID controller)
12: position & attach the rest of the power & control cables
13: (optional) add discrete GPU
14: (optional) add more fan(s)

Optionally, CPU, RAM & NVME(s), & most CPU cooler types, can be installed to
motherboard before laying it into case. Often times the CPU power cable can be
difficult to install before the CPU cooler, or the PS itself.

>From here on, it's like a store-bought PC with cover off and no operating 
>system.
Attach keyboard, rodent, screen, installation media, & power it up.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[David Christensen]

On 4/25/22 15:30, Tom Browder wrote:

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 11:07 Andrew M.A. Cater  wrote:


On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 10:25:46AM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:

I am looking for a commercial grade server (for home use) to replace my
remote ones.



And to all others, thanks for your advice.

I'm now 78 and don't do serious building any more--I stand a good chance of
frying a CPU! And I wouldn't trust any of my friends, either ;-D



A local computer shop, computer technician, and/or hobbyist might be 
able to build a custom computer for you using the parts you specify 
and/or furnish.



Alternatively, you might be able to find a vendor  who can build and 
ship it to you:


https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=custom%20pc%20build%20ship


David

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[Tom Browder]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 11:07 Andrew M.A. Cater  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 10:25:46AM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:
> > I am looking for a commercial grade server (for home use) to replace my
> > remote ones.

...

The HP Microserver is the same sort of beast: HPE Proliant Microserver
> Gen 10 Plus is about the size of a bookshelf speaker by the looks.
>
> HPE's own drives are relatively expensive. This is effectively a fit and
> forget solution, I think. Drives aren't hot swap but if you're going to use
> SSD anyway, that doesn't matter.
>
> The ILO card is a little bit more.


Thanks, Andy.

And to all others, thanks for your advice.

I'm now 78 and don't do serious building any more--I stand a good chance of
frying a CPU! And I wouldn't trust any of my friends, either ;-D

Best,

-Tom

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[David Christensen]

On 4/25/22 08:25, Tom Browder wrote:

I am looking for a commercial grade server (for home use) to replace my
remote ones. I am looking at Dell's site and an almost-empty chassis with a
low-end Intel, 1 TB SATA, and 8 Gb ECC  RAM is in the $800 ball park. It
looks very upgradeable.

Anyone have any suggestions on whether to buy or not? I would add at least
two 1 Tb SSD from Crucial to it.



I bought a COTS server for SOHO storage about 3.5 years ago.  Instead of 
new, I bought a ~3 month used Dell PowerEdge T30 on Craig's List for 
$375 with Xeon E3-1225 v5, 8 GB memory module, 1 TB 3.5" SATA desktop 
HDD, and DVD+-RW slim drive.  I removed the 1 TB HDD and added a used 
matching 8 GB ECC module, new PCI slot 2.5" SATA drive rack, used 2.5" 
SATA 60 GB enterprise desktop SSD (OS), PCIe x1 dual SATA 6 Gbps HBA, 
and four new previous model 3.5" SATA 3 TB  enterprise storage HDD's 
(data).  As a storage server, it can easily saturate the Gigabit 
connection.  The mini-tower size is nice.  The fans are quiet.  Cooling 
is marginal.  The HDD's are attached directly to the drive cages, so the 
chassis acts as a sounding board and drive access noise is distracting 
in the living room.  The price was around $800.  There is room for two 
more 8 GB memory modules and a PCIe NVMe drive.



I recently built a backup storage server based on the Fractal Design 
Define R5 chassis:


https://www.fractal-design.com/products/cases/define/define-r5/black/

The chassis supports ATX, Micro ATX, and Mini ITX motherboards, and ATX 
PSU's.  It has two internal 2.5" drive bays, eight internal 3.5" drive 
bays (with vibration isolation grommets), and two external 5.25" drive 
bays.  The chassis is lined with sound absorbing material.  It comes 
with two quiet 140 mm fans and a fan speed controller (up to three 
fans).  The internal drive bays are reconfigurable.  There are 
removable/ reconfigurable panels for radiators and more fans.  I 
installed a used Intel S1200V3RPL motherboard, used Intel Xeon E3-1225 
v3 processor, used heatsink, used CPU fan, four used 4 GB ECC memory 
modules, used desktop 450 W PSU, used dual 2.5" SATA drive rack, used 
2.5" SATA 60 GB enterprise desktop SSD, new 3.5" SATA drive rack, new 
3.5" 6 TB enterprise HDD (backups), new 8 port SATA 6 Gbps HBA, and four 
new previous model 3.5" SATA 3 TB  enterprise storage HDD's.  It can 
easily saturate one Gigabit port; I have yet to try bonding the two 
Gigabit ports.  The mid-tower size is as expected.  Cooling is 
excellent.  The system is very quiet in the bedroom.  There are two 2.5" 
and four 3.5" free internal drive bays.  The price was around $900. 
There is room for two 2.5" drives and four 3.5" drives.



David

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[Joel Roth]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 11:27:24AM -0600, Charles Curley wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:07:28 +
> "Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:
> 
> > Alternatively, it might be worth looking at something small and silent
> > from a US? equivalent of QuietPC / Overclockers UK.
> 
> I've had good results from silentpc.com, in Washington state.

And on the cheaper side, not necessarily "commercial grade", is this
$600 fanless PC.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0912ZKKYM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8=1
> 
> -- 
> Does anybody read signatures any more?
> 
> https://charlescurley.com
> https://charlescurley.com/blog/
> 

-- 
Joel Roth

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[Dan Ritter]

Tom Browder wrote: 
> I am looking for a commercial grade server (for home use) to replace my
> remote ones. I am looking at Dell's site and an almost-empty chassis with a
> low-end Intel, 1 TB SATA, and 8 Gb ECC  RAM is in the $800 ball park. It
> looks very upgradeable.
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions on whether to buy or not? I would add at least
> two 1 Tb SSD from Crucial to it.


My experience with Dell and HP is that they produce high quality
machines with an excessive number of proprietary parts, that
will bite you as a home user.

If you have sufficient manual dexterity or a knowledgeable
friend, I would highly recommend building your own server.

If you need rackmount, rackmount cases are available. If you
don't, sturdy quiet large-desktop cases are much cheaper.
There's a lot to be said for using $60 power supplies instead of
$200 power supplies.

For $800, I put together this for you:

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/rrF2mr

which gets you a nice Ryzen 5600G (6 cores, 12 threads), 32GB of
RAM, a 1 TB NVMe SSD, and a good, quiet case. And every single
thing in it is replaceable or upgradeable with off-the-shelf components.

-dsr-

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[Charles Curley]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:07:28 +
"Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:

> Alternatively, it might be worth looking at something small and silent
> from a US? equivalent of QuietPC / Overclockers UK.

I've had good results from silentpc.com, in Washington state.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Recommendations for a home server running Debian Bullseye (11)?

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 10:25:46AM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:
> I am looking for a commercial grade server (for home use) to replace my
> remote ones. I am looking at Dell's site and an almost-empty chassis with a
> low-end Intel, 1 TB SATA, and 8 Gb ECC  RAM is in the $800 ball park. It
> looks very upgradeable.
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions on whether to buy or not? I would add at least
> two 1 Tb SSD from Crucial to it.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Tom

The HP Microserver is the same sort of beast: HPE Proliant Microserver
Gen 10 Plus is about the size of a bookshelf speaker by the looks.

HPE's own drives are relatively expensive. This is effectively a fit and 
forget solution, I think. Drives aren't hot swap but if you're going to use
SSD anyway, that doesn't matter.

The ILO card is a little bit more.

Alternatively, it might be worth looking at something small and silent
from a US? equivalent of QuietPC / Overclockers UK.

Hope this helps,

All best, as ever,

Andy Cater