Re: The future of Debian install??
Michael == Michael P Soulier [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Michael On 08/03/02 Manoj Srivastava did speaketh: I beg to differ. A computer is a marvelous, versatile, flexible, configurable tool, and, I prefer to actually learn how to use ones tools. Michael As with everything in life, I prefer to have the Michael choice. I'm using Debian because it's the best, and because Michael I learn, but sometimes I want it to just work, and I don't Michael care about the particular quirks of my monitor and video Michael card because I'm devoting my time to yet another computer Michael topic. I think there is a contradiction here. Indeed, most people railing against Debian's interactive install are also railing against choice: the install offers you choices at the drop of a hat. If there is something that can be tweaked or configured, the install process is likely to ask your opinion (give you another choice, in fact). Often, the defaults presented work well. Some times, there _is_ no default that shall work well for everyone. And hence the questions. I happen to like being presented the option to tailor the package to my liking -- one of he scariest installs I had was installing a non-debian machine, in which a ftp server, a http server, and samba were installed -- all without asking me a single question! I had no idea how wide open the machine was -- and it certainly did not work out of the box. manoj -- In space, no one can hear you fart. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
RE: The future of Debian install??
On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 11:37:08 -0800, Bedford, Donald T. wrote: a few years back. Yes, my first install on a x86 box as anything but easy as I build my own box. But, I now know more about my system than I ever did w/ RH. This is why I chose the Debian path instead of re- installing RH on the new system. Auto-detect would be nice but I sure learned a lot when it didn't... I may have missed something (sure hope so), but what I'd find immensely useful is a way of being able to choose, at install (or other) time what packages I want then save this selection 'list' to a file so that when I next install Debian on another box I can just tell it to use the previously made selections. SuSE has this capability and its fantastic for installing a sane and similar OS onto vastly differing server hardware. I imagine I could make a new 'task' to achieve this, but I've yet to see any way, at install time, of importing something that's not already on the install CD. Something like 'would you like to import package selections from floppy (or other) disk' would be just great. Any pointers anyone? As for the install - well, I -hate- dselect with a passion, it gets the job done but gawd! Does it have to be so time consuming/difficult? I'm deeply distrustful of GUI installers and never use em. Quite liked the SuSE YAST1 (text only) except for the use of RPM which gives you -big- inherent problems later in your servers life. Cheers, Craig
RE: The future of Debian install??
Craig Sampson wrote (on 12 Mar 2002 at 19:57): I may have missed something (sure hope so), but what I'd find immensely useful is a way of being able to choose, at install (or other) time what packages I want then save this selection 'list' to a file so that when I next install Debian on another box I can just tell it to use the previously made selections. Maybe you can adapt this: === From: Eric Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sean 'Shaleh' Perry [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: Debian Reinstall Date sent: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:56:08 -0700 Copies to: debian-user@lists.debian.org debian- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Forwarded by: debian-user@lists.debian.org Date forwarded: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:07:00 +0200 (MET DST) Organization: MilagroSoft Inc. Sean 'Shaleh' Perry wrote: On 09-May-2001 Ronan O'Sullivan wrote: Hi there, I am wondering is there anyway to save your current installed packages information and when you reinstall for apt or dselect to know what packages to install or remove to restore your system to the previous state? 2 steps: a) # dpkg --get-selections|sed -e 's/deinstall$/purge/'|dpkg # --set-selections apt-get dselect-upgrade # this removes any lingering # packages in your list b) # dpkg --get-selections|sed -e 's/hold$/install/' package_list # copy package_install /somewhere/safe Then, after the install: # dpkg --set-selections package_list # apt-get dselect-upgrade The sed call is to ensure that even packages on hold get stored properly. This is very clever and effective. I tried it today and it worked like a charm to get a good package list for backup and of course purge deinstalled packages as per a). BTW, How can I find why a package is on hold? Thanks again, Eric = -- -- Tony Crawford -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- +49-3341-30 99 99 --
Re: The future of Debian install??
On Tue, Mar 12, 2002 at 07:57:31PM +0800, Craig Sampson wrote: Something like 'would you like to import package selections from floppy (or other) disk' would be just great. It is there. Recently installed woody on about 20 machines with the following method: 1. On some machine that I had already installed woody with a bunch of packages did dpkg --get-selections inst.list 2. Copied inst.list on to a floppy. 3. Installed the base system on a new machine. 4. Copied the inst.list from the floppy on to the new machine (went the mount floppy route; no mtools yet) 5. Did dpkg --set-selections inst.list 6. Pop in the woody cd (or the appropriate sources) and did apt-get dselect-upgrade Now, you have an installation which is exactly what you had one some other machine. The process was so smooth, it did not fail even once. Hats off to the debian team for the apt-get and friends. -- Sridhar M.A.mas at uomphysics dot net This fortune was brought to you by the people at Hewlett-Packard.
RE: The future of Debian install??
Yes, if I may pipe-in on this one... I am a Debian newbie from the RH world a few years back. Yes, my first install on a x86 box as anything but easy as I build my own box. But, I now know more about my system than I ever did w/ RH. This is why I chose the Debian path instead of re-installing RH on the new system. Auto-detect would be nice but I sure learned a lot when it didn't... -don -Original Message- From: Oki DZ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 4:42 PM To: Michael Marziani Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The future of Debian install?? Michael Marziani wrote: I've installed debian quite a few times and it's not a big deal, but every once in a while I wish it would just auto-detect my network card, graphics card, etc just to save me the trouble of looking them up. Not to mention that xfree86setup is a pain. Try to ask RedHat users: What do you know about X server? Oki
Re: The future of Debian install??
On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 11:37:08AM -0800, Bedford, Donald T. wrote: Yes, if I may pipe-in on this one... I am a Debian newbie from the RH world a few years back. Yes, my first install on a x86 box as anything but easy as I build my own box. But, I now know more about my system than I ever did w/ RH. This is why I chose the Debian path instead of re-installing RH on the new system. Auto-detect would be nice but I sure learned a lot when it didn't... -don I know what you mean. Part of the joy of Linux is that you take control of your own system. But IMO this should be a choice. Corel produced a Debain installer that was miles ahead of anything else out there. so we know that installing Debian can be done easily and properly in a gui setup. Somehwere, lwn.net I think, I saw details of a common Linux installer being developed. I wonder if theDebian project is interested in using such a thing. and at the start, you could have an option Installation for manly geeks vs Installation for wusses Patrick
Re: The future of Debian install??
On Fri, 8 Mar 2002 15:19:59 -0500 Michael P. Soulier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 08/03/02 Manoj Srivastava did speaketh: I beg to differ. A computer is a marvelous, versatile, flexible, configurable tool, and, I prefer to actually learn how to use ones tools. As with everything in life, I prefer to have the choice. I'm using Debian because it's the best, and because I learn, but sometimes I want it to just work, and I don't care about the particular quirks of my monitor and video card because I'm devoting my time to yet another computer topic. Autodetection's okay so long as I can overrule it. There should always be an option to drop to a shell or tell the computer, yes, I want to toast my monitor.
Re: The future of Debian install??
Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso wrote: Well, I don't know how RH goes now, but the first RH distribution I test about seven years ago (4.x or so...) has an installation like the one Debian has today. The install part on RH is better than what's in Debian, even today; especially when it goes to X. I never said that fresh install in Debian was easier. On Debian, it is a _lot_ easier when installing individual package; in my case, using apt-get. Keep on mind that everyone can configure this distribution; its not a matter of brain, its a matter of TIME, and there's a lot of people that needs a computer to do things very different that spent time configuring the SO, specially if they're not computer technicians; they do NOT NEED to know Well, I believe that given the same task, if somebody can do it faster, then there's something in the brain. nothing about the underlaying technology as, in example, a JAVA programmer DO NOT NEED to know nothing about x86 assembler or an x86 assembler programmer DO NOT NEED to know the machine codes of each mnemonic. I believe that on installing a fresh Debian system, X is the barrier that you have to overcome; if in fact you needed to run X. BTW, in the homepage, it is stated that the friendly UI is the shell; even for beginners. In http://packages.debian.org/unstable: Shells Command shells. Friendly user interfaces for beginners. So, regarding X on Debian, X is extra; something that you have to deal with to pass the beginner stage. It's a bit different with other Linux systems; on others, you'd get into X (pretty automatically) and then go to the command shells when they are ready. On Debian, you go to the shell first; at least to learn what ls is. Later, when you need something fancy (like others), you have to install X (pretty manually, espescially on XF86Config). I believe that the Debian approach is better, in terms of learning; well, you might learn that X stands for X Window System, and not X Windows System. Or, learning something simple; that ls thing. I suspect, there are some RH users who don't know what ls is; of course it doesn't quite matter, especially when everything runs smoothly. But once a while (eg: due to electrical spike), the systems are hosed, X is gone; in that moment, you might need ls. On the other hand, if you need, or simply want, to learn how an X Server its configured from scratch (or how obtain milk directly from a cow instead from the bottle...), you still will be able to learn it with or without the existence of an automatic setup program. Thing is, I believe that people wouldn't go manual if they could do it automatically. Well, some people may like to do it manually; you can ask Debian users. And I think they have learned what X is. When computers used perfored cards to store information, holes was performed by a device; but I think you could use a pin and do it by hand... Finally, I'll like to know everything about every field, but none lives forever. None lives forever... but to know everything, actually all you need to do is to go in silence; in all there is silence, and in silence there is all. If Debian has have a better (call it easier or faster or so...) setup system, I've had migrate to it from years ago. You flamed on things that I didn't say. All I say was: Debian is better compared to RH on installing packages. You know, apt-get is not for installing fresh systems; APT: A Package Tool. One thing I don't like about .rpm is that - hmm... I have to say it again - the package installer spits out the names of the files to install when it doesn't find other package(s) to install. So, you'd have a big problem, where could you get that individual file with a name ending with .o? So you search it on the net; you might find one... too bad, the link doesn't say about the name of the .rpm package where the file is included. On apt, it tells you the package names to install, and better yet, if you are connected, apt downloads you the needed packages (and then install the downloaded packages, and download some more if the installed ones are depending on othe packages, and then install...). Oki
Re: The future of Debian install??
- Original Message - From: Oki DZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Michael Marziani [EMAIL PROTECTED]; debian-user@lists.debian.org Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:55 PM Subject: Re: The future of Debian install?? Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso wrote: Well, I don't know how RH goes now, but the first RH distribution I test about seven years ago (4.x or so...) has an installation like the one Debian has today. [snip] Looks to me like this fellow is a natural Windoze user. Thats where the spectators belong. Debian is for the players... I started in January with 2 months of computer experience behind me. I've been studying every day since then, and still do not feel ready to actually install Debian. Am I complaining? Not on your life. If I wanted to be an appliance operator, I'd just stay with Windoze, and never learn anything but how to call 800 numbers and how to insert CDs for the re-install they use for every single problem. (System Restore, and Last Good Configuration are just variations on this theme. ) Windoze is a disposable operating system, and that's all even their so-called 'engineers' know how to do. Now. Back to Running Linux which is the last step (for me) before actual installation. . And am I going to be disappointed if it goes too smoothly. Bruce+
Re: The future of Debian install??
On Friday 08 March 2002 06:55, Oki DZ wrote: Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso wrote: The install part on RH is better than what's in Debian, even today; especially when it goes to X. I never said that fresh install in Debian was easier. On Debian, it is a _lot_ easier when installing individual package; in my case, using apt-get. Yes, apt-get is a great tool, but we wasn't talking about it. Keep on mind that everyone can configure this distribution; its not a matter of brain, its a matter of TIME, and there's a lot of people that needs a computer to do things very different that spent time configuring the SO, specially if they're not computer technicians; they do NOT NEED to know Well, I believe that given the same task, if somebody can do it faster, then there's something in the brain. An elitist... well, if you can configure X from scratch faster than the computer itself, then you should think about go to the Guinness show. Computers are done to make our lifes easy and to let us avoid repetitive tasks. I'm not psychologist, but I think making repetitive things faster is not a manner of evaluate inteligence (or is it?). A monkey can do that kind of things faster than an human if it is trained. nothing about the underlaying technology as, in example, a JAVA programmer DO NOT NEED to know nothing about x86 assembler or an x86 assembler programmer DO NOT NEED to know the machine codes of each mnemonic. I believe that on installing a fresh Debian system, X is the barrier that you have to overcome; if in fact you needed to run X. BTW, in the homepage, it is stated that the friendly UI is the shell; even for beginners. In http://packages.debian.org/unstable: Shells Command shells. Friendly user interfaces for beginners. There was an old expresion that looks like Unix is user friendly, but it choose its friends carefully. So, regarding X on Debian, X is extra; something that you have to deal with to pass the beginner stage. This is not reasonable indeed. Imagine that a graphic designer needs to use its system to develop images; yes, it can write a jpeg byte by byte with the help of 'dd bs=1 if=/dev/stdin mygraph.jpg' (vi is for awful users, echo sucks! gimp? what's gimp?) a calculator (moreover, without it) a lot of paper and more patiente. Despite the fact that fractals are for mathematician, not for graphic desingers, then it could think well... why I'm using a computer?. You don't need to know how a turbo works or a direct inyection diesel engine does to be an excellent driver. Is the computer that must cover the requeriments of the user, and not the other way. It's a bit different with other Linux systems; on others, you'd get into X (pretty automatically) and then go to the command shells when they are ready. On Debian, you go to the shell first; at least to learn what ls is. Later, when you need something fancy (like others), you have to install X (pretty manually, espescially on XF86Config). I believe that the Debian approach is better, in terms of learning; [...] Thing is, I believe that people wouldn't go manual if they could do it automatically. [...] Integrist? Well, If you want to learn how X works, then learn how X works, if you want to practise some kind of religion, then do it, but let the rest of people decide by themselves what they need/want to learn. Finally, I'll like to know everything about every field, but none lives forever. None lives forever... but to know everything, actually all you need to do is to go in silence; in all there is silence, and in silence there is all. Erm... did you see Kung-Fu reciently? know everything in a life is, of course impossible, but still to know a lot everyone needs time, in all there is time, and time is short as hell. (Gamma Ray) If Debian has have a better (call it easier or faster or so...) setup system, I've had migrate to it from years ago. You flamed on things that I didn't say. All I say was: Debian is better compared to RH on installing packages. We must stand for different threads. At the beggining of my one you was insinuating that Debian was better cause a Red Hat user don't knows nothing about X. And yes, apt-get rules... so?... BTW, don't know in RH, but at least in SuSE rpm says the package dependeces you need to complet, not the individual files. This is not as cool as apt-get but not as bad as you paint it neither. Have a good one,
RE: The future of Debian install??
Woah folks.. I actually think you guys are saying some of the same things, but not quite expressing it the same ways. In my original post, I was just thinking how it would be nice to have the option of having some things done automatically rather than do it all by hand. I understand it's very important to the debian community for the deb newbie to learn the install and understand the system that they are setting up, but for those of us who have installed debian many many times it would be nice to select an option that does a few things automatically. Once you understand a process, there is no point in repeating it just for repitition's sake. Why do we script tasks? Same reason. Anyway.. That's the only point I was trying to make. -Mike _ Michael D. Marziani Systems Administrator -Original Message- From: Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 5:07 AM To: Oki DZ Cc: Michael Marziani; debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The future of Debian install?? On Friday 08 March 2002 06:55, Oki DZ wrote: Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso wrote: The install part on RH is better than what's in Debian, even today; especially when it goes to X. I never said that fresh install in Debian was easier. On Debian, it is a _lot_ easier when installing individual package; in my case, using apt-get. Yes, apt-get is a great tool, but we wasn't talking about it. Keep on mind that everyone can configure this distribution; its not a matter of brain, its a matter of TIME, and there's a lot of people that needs a computer to do things very different that spent time configuring the SO, specially if they're not computer technicians; they do NOT NEED to know Well, I believe that given the same task, if somebody can do it faster, then there's something in the brain. An elitist... well, if you can configure X from scratch faster than the computer itself, then you should think about go to the Guinness show. Computers are done to make our lifes easy and to let us avoid repetitive tasks. I'm not psychologist, but I think making repetitive things faster is not a manner of evaluate inteligence (or is it?). A monkey can do that kind of things faster than an human if it is trained. nothing about the underlaying technology as, in example, a JAVA programmer DO NOT NEED to know nothing about x86 assembler or an x86 assembler programmer DO NOT NEED to know the machine codes of each mnemonic. I believe that on installing a fresh Debian system, X is the barrier that you have to overcome; if in fact you needed to run X. BTW, in the homepage, it is stated that the friendly UI is the shell; even for beginners. In http://packages.debian.org/unstable: Shells Command shells. Friendly user interfaces for beginners. There was an old expresion that looks like Unix is user friendly, but it choose its friends carefully. So, regarding X on Debian, X is extra; something that you have to deal with to pass the beginner stage. This is not reasonable indeed. Imagine that a graphic designer needs to use its system to develop images; yes, it can write a jpeg byte by byte with the help of 'dd bs=1 if=/dev/stdin mygraph.jpg' (vi is for awful users, echo sucks! gimp? what's gimp?) a calculator (moreover, without it) a lot of paper and more patiente. Despite the fact that fractals are for mathematician, not for graphic desingers, then it could think well... why I'm using a computer?. You don't need to know how a turbo works or a direct inyection diesel engine does to be an excellent driver. Is the computer that must cover the requeriments of the user, and not the other way. It's a bit different with other Linux systems; on others, you'd get into X (pretty automatically) and then go to the command shells when they are ready. On Debian, you go to the shell first; at least to learn what ls is. Later, when you need something fancy (like others), you have to install X (pretty manually, espescially on XF86Config). I believe that the Debian approach is better, in terms of learning; [...] Thing is, I believe that people wouldn't go manual if they could do it automatically. [...] Integrist? Well, If you want to learn how X works, then learn how X works, if you want to practise some kind of religion, then do it, but let the rest of people decide by themselves what they need/want to learn. Finally, I'll like to know everything about every field, but none lives forever. None lives forever... but to know everything, actually all you need to do is to go in silence; in all there is silence, and in silence there is all. Erm... did you see Kung-Fu reciently? know everything in a life is, of course impossible, but still to know a lot everyone needs time, in all there is time, and time is short as hell. (Gamma Ray) If Debian has have a better (call it easier or faster or so...) setup
Re: The future of Debian install??
on Fri, Mar 08, 2002, Oki DZ ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso wrote: Well, I don't know how RH goes now, but the first RH distribution I test about seven years ago (4.x or so...) has an installation like the one Debian has today. The install part on RH is better than what's in Debian, even today; especially when it goes to X. I never said that fresh install in Debian was easier. On Debian, it is a _lot_ easier when installing individual package; in my case, using apt-get. I'd partition my praise differently: - RH's installer does a really nice job with hardware configuration. It tells you what you've got, picks sane defaults, and largely hides complexity of choices from the user. I'd not done an RH install for some years until recently, I've done about a dozen 7.2 installs in the past month or so. Of all the hardware, what really matters is X11, most everything else is fairly straightforward. - Debian blows RH out of the water when it comes to package selection. RH offers bundled configurations which could be handled (and largely are) by Debian tasks. It's the individual package selection, dependency resolution, and package updating where Debian clearly exceeds RH. I also find the package defaults, configuration layout, and general cleanliness of a Debian install superior to RH, and the fact that it's possible to move backwards and forwards through the process in a Debian install allows for greater flexibility. Debian also offers more powerful and flexible shell access during install. Given this, it would seem that improving HW detection would do a lot for ease of use of a Debian installation. The delta between the two isn't great. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.comhttp://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of Gestalt don't you understand? There is no K5 cabal http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ http://www.kuro5hin.org pgpaePiWT0aWV.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: The future of Debian install??
Francisco == Francisco M Marzoa Alonso [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Francisco An elitist... well, if you can configure X from scratch Francisco faster than the computer itself, then you should think Francisco about go to the Guinness show. Computers are done to make Francisco our lifes easy and to let us avoid repetitive tasks. I'm Francisco not psychologist, but I think making repetitive things Francisco faster is not a manner of evaluate inteligence (or is Francisco it?). A monkey can do that kind of things faster than an Francisco human if it is trained. This is getting seriously off topic, but this is somewhat of a hot button with me. You are touching on the tools vs appliance dichotomy here. A refrigerator is an appliance. I can walk to a refrigerator in Hong Kong, and I know how it works: open door, put object in, object's temperature drops. Sure, there are minor variations (auto defrost or not), but by and large, appliance don't require training and manuals. A tool is something else. Take an Axe. Please note that complexity is not an issue: an axe is far simpler than a refrigerator. But as anyone trying to split firewood know, using an axe requires training. An Axe is dangerous: hit the chunk of wood wrong, and it can rebound off and take off your foot. It is, however, more flexible and can do more things than the appliance (toaster, refrigerator) -- chop trees, tear through doors and walls in rescues, chop wood to kindling, Executioners axes, war axes, throwing axes -- lots of variations for the tasks. Microsoft has made money trying to convince people a general purpose computer, one of the most versatile tools invented by man, is really a mere appliance, and needs no training to use well. I beg to differ. A computer is a marvelous, versatile, flexible, configurable tool, and, I prefer to actually learn how to use ones tools. I probably shall be flamed for this. manoj who shudders at visions of hammering nails with a chain saw -- A salamander scurries into flame to be destroyed. Imaginary creatures are trapped in birth on celluloid. Genesis, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway I don't know what it's about. I'm just the drummer. Ask Peter. Phil Collins in 1975, when asked about the message behind the previous year's Genesis release, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: The future of Debian install??
On Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 11:12:53AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Francisco == Francisco M Marzoa Alonso [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Francisco An elitist... well, if you can configure X from scratch Francisco faster than the computer itself, then you should think Francisco about go to the Guinness show. Computers are done to make Francisco our lifes easy and to let us avoid repetitive tasks. I'm Francisco not psychologist, but I think making repetitive things Francisco faster is not a manner of evaluate inteligence (or is Francisco it?). A monkey can do that kind of things faster than an Francisco human if it is trained. This is getting seriously off topic, but this is somewhat of a hot button with me. You are touching on the tools vs appliance dichotomy here. A refrigerator is an appliance. I can walk to a refrigerator in Hong Kong, and I know how it works: open door, put object in, object's temperature drops. Sure, there are minor variations (auto defrost or not), but by and large, appliance don't require training and manuals. A tool is something else. Take an Axe. Please note that complexity is not an issue: an axe is far simpler than a refrigerator. But as anyone trying to split firewood know, using an axe requires training. An Axe is dangerous: hit the chunk of wood wrong, and it can rebound off and take off your foot. It is, however, more flexible and can do more things than the appliance (toaster, refrigerator) -- chop trees, tear through doors and walls in rescues, chop wood to kindling, Executioners axes, war axes, throwing axes -- lots of variations for the tasks. Microsoft has made money trying to convince people a general purpose computer, one of the most versatile tools invented by man, is really a mere appliance, and needs no training to use well. I beg to differ. A computer is a marvelous, versatile, flexible, configurable tool, and, I prefer to actually learn how to use ones tools. You can fiddle with your house, your garden, your car, your computer, maybe even your refrigerator and your toaster, to learn how they work and to configure them to your taste, but most people don't have time for all of them. People using Debian are probably more interested in the computer than the other things (I certainly am) and it seems to me pointless for Debian to try to cater for other types. I probably shall be flamed for this. manoj who shudders at visions of hammering nails with a chain saw -- A salamander scurries into flame to be destroyed. Imaginary creatures are trapped in birth on celluloid. Genesis, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway I don't know what it's about. I'm just the drummer. Ask Peter. Phil Collins in 1975, when asked about the message behind the previous year's Genesis release, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The future of Debian install??
On Friday 08 March 2002 13:36, David Jardine wrote: On Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 11:12:53AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Francisco == Francisco M Marzoa Alonso [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Francisco An elitist... well, if you can configure X from scratch Francisco faster than the computer itself, then you should think Francisco about go to the Guinness show. Computers are done to make Francisco our lifes easy and to let us avoid repetitive tasks. I'm Francisco not psychologist, but I think making repetitive things Francisco faster is not a manner of evaluate inteligence (or is Francisco it?). A monkey can do that kind of things faster than an Francisco human if it is trained. This is getting seriously off topic, but this is somewhat of a hot button with me. You are touching on the tools vs appliance dichotomy here. A refrigerator is an appliance. I can walk to a refrigerator in Hong Kong, and I know how it works: open door, put object in, object's temperature drops. Sure, there are minor variations (auto defrost or not), but by and large, appliance don't require training and manuals. A tool is something else. Take an Axe. Please note that complexity is not an issue: an axe is far simpler than a refrigerator. But as anyone trying to split firewood know, using an axe requires training. An Axe is dangerous: hit the chunk of wood wrong, and it can rebound off and take off your foot. It is, however, more flexible and can do more things than the appliance (toaster, refrigerator) -- chop trees, tear through doors and walls in rescues, chop wood to kindling, Executioners axes, war axes, throwing axes -- lots of variations for the tasks. Microsoft has made money trying to convince people a general purpose computer, one of the most versatile tools invented by man, is really a mere appliance, and needs no training to use well. I beg to differ. A computer is a marvelous, versatile, flexible, configurable tool, and, I prefer to actually learn how to use ones tools. You can fiddle with your house, your garden, your car, your computer, maybe even your refrigerator and your toaster, to learn how they work and to configure them to your taste, but most people don't have time for all of them. People using Debian are probably more interested in the computer than the other things (I certainly am) and it seems to me pointless for Debian to try to cater for other types. I am one of those how 'care about', and I 'enjoyed' my debian installs (Was running RH). I believe you should 'know' your hardware, at least the basics (video card, network card, etc). Using the appliance analogy above, it sucks to pay a repair man $50 an hour to find out your fridge was unplugged. On the other hand, debian is possibly the easiest distribution to maintain, so therefor would be a big win for new users/converts. The stumbling block for these new users, the install (hey, doze didn't ask me any of this, I'm scared!!). I would prefer not to loose the current option of install, but I can certainly see the value of auto-detecting. Why not make an option at the beginning of the install, say 'auto-detect', build a tool that would go out and find as much about the system as it could, store this info in a cache file, then begin the regular install. As the install program stepped through the install, it would check the cache for any information about that step. If it finds something, it changes the default values, and notifies the user that auto-detect values were used. Pros: 1) This option gives us the option of running manual or auto-detect. 2) Provides method new users to work-around the stumbling block. 3) Without them knowing it, debian will teach them about their system. 4) The install program would remain 'light' as the auto-detect code would reside in a separate tool. 6) I'm sure others on this list can think of more... Cons: 1) A separate install disk might be needed to hold the auto-detect code 2) I'm sure others on this list can think of more... Just my 2cents, OK, now I'm broke!!! John
Re: The future of Debian install??
On 08/03/02 Manoj Srivastava did speaketh: I beg to differ. A computer is a marvelous, versatile, flexible, configurable tool, and, I prefer to actually learn how to use ones tools. As with everything in life, I prefer to have the choice. I'm using Debian because it's the best, and because I learn, but sometimes I want it to just work, and I don't care about the particular quirks of my monitor and video card because I'm devoting my time to yet another computer topic. Mike -- Michael P. Soulier [EMAIL PROTECTED], GnuPG pub key: 5BC8BE08 ...the word HACK is used as a verb to indicate a massive amount of nerd-like effort. -Harley Hahn, A Student's Guide to Unix pgpeC9NIPZjiI.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: The future of Debian install??
Michael Marziani wrote: I've installed debian quite a few times and it's not a big deal, but every once in a while I wish it would just auto-detect my network card, graphics card, etc just to save me the trouble of looking them up. Not to mention that xfree86setup is a pain. Try to ask RedHat users: What do you know about X server? Oki
Re: The future of Debian install??
On 05-Mar-2002 Michael Marziani wrote: I've installed debian quite a few times and it's not a big deal, but every once in a while I wish it would just auto-detect my network card, graphics card, etc just to save me the trouble of looking them up. Not to mention that xfree86setup is a pain. Is auto-detecting a PS/2 mouse really that hard? Anyway... Just curious if anyone has the low down. Thanks! While I was at VA one of the motherboards we tested would lock solid if the RH ps/2 test was performed and no mouse was actually attached. The problem with PC hardware is usually it works, but there are just enough weird models out there to break things that it makes it much more difficult than it should be.
Re: The future of Debian install??
On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 04:46:23PM -0800, Sean 'Shaleh' Perry wrote: On 05-Mar-2002 Michael Marziani wrote: I've installed debian quite a few times and it's not a big deal, but every once in a while I wish it would just auto-detect my network card, graphics card, etc just to save me the trouble of looking them up. Not to mention that xfree86setup is a pain. Is auto-detecting a PS/2 mouse really that hard? Anyway... Just curious if anyone has the low down. Thanks! While I was at VA one of the motherboards we tested would lock solid if the RH ps/2 test was performed and no mouse was actually attached. The problem with PC hardware is usually it works, but there are just enough weird models out there to break things that it makes it much more difficult than it should be. I have always thought that one of the strengths of debian was its relatively low-level install. What you loose in convenience, you gain in control. Art Edwards -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The future of Debian install??
On Wednesday 06 March 2002 01:41, Oki DZ wrote: Michael Marziani wrote: I've installed debian quite a few times and it's not a big deal, but every once in a while I wish it would just auto-detect my network card, graphics card, etc just to save me the trouble of looking them up. Not to mention that xfree86setup is a pain. FLAMEWAR TOPIC=distributions (again) Try to ask RedHat users: What do you know about X server? This battle is older than Hell but... Well, I don't know how RH goes now, but the first RH distribution I test about seven years ago (4.x or so...) has an installation like the one Debian has today. Later, I migrate to SuSE because it was easier to configure; I meant that you can install it once and dont take care about read a lot of howtos and spent a lot of time reconfiguring things just to use my own language. If I'm today using Debian (since last Saturday) its mainly I'm on vacation and have a lot of time to fight with the system; I'm not using Debian because I think its the best distribution, so I dont think so, I'm using it mainly by its philosophy (its not a commercial product). If I were still working, I've never drop my comfortable SuSE. Keep on mind that everyone can configure this distribution; its not a matter of brain, its a matter of TIME, and there's a lot of people that needs a computer to do things very different that spent time configuring the SO, specially if they're not computer technicians; they do NOT NEED to know nothing about the underlaying technology as, in example, a JAVA programmer DO NOT NEED to know nothing about x86 assembler or an x86 assembler programmer DO NOT NEED to know the machine codes of each mnemonic. On the other hand, if you need, or simply want, to learn how an X Server its configured from scratch (or how obtain milk directly from a cow instead from the bottle...), you still will be able to learn it with or without the existence of an automatic setup program. When computers used perfored cards to store information, holes was performed by a device; but I think you could use a pin and do it by hand... Finally, I'll like to know everything about every field, but none lives forever. If Debian has have a better (call it easier or faster or so...) setup system, I've had migrate to it from years ago. Oki /FLAMEWAR Cheers,
