Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On 8/5/2014 10:24 PM, Paul E Condon wrote: On 20140805_0004+0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 04 aug 14, 08:52:17, Paul E Condon wrote: I've spent some time recently, trying to use the Gmail browser interface. I would never switch to it from Mutt, excepting only if Microsoft does a corporate take-over of Debian (They are both corporations under the Law, and under the Law, strange, unnatural things can happen, as explained in a recent post by Lisi) Debian is definitely not a corporation under any law and any thing resembling a takeover would involve controlling something like 2 thirds of its members (to be able to change Foundation documents, etc.). You might want to read the Constitution: http://www.debian.org/devel/constitution In USA, where I live, a recent Supreme Court decision is that a Corporation has more standing Law than a Human if the Human is a female. In USA, things are very strange, by standards of Europe. More like what Lisi describes in Australia, but without a living, human Sovereign person. You have no idea what the decision was about. It had nothing to do with humans - male or female. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53e22705.9040...@attglobal.net
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On 20140804_2358+0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Du, 03 aug 14, 13:28:06, Bob Proulx wrote: P.S. I still think digests are less desirable because I don't see a way to view the discussion in a threaded view. Threaded views have been around for so long that I couldn't live without them. Of course Gmail and Outlook users don't have threaded views. But I am sure that if they did they wouldn't want to not have them either. I'm not very familiar with Gmail's interface, but Outlook definitely does have threaded views. Unfortunately by activating it you also have to use reverse chronological sorting by the newest message in the thread, which is very annoying for me. Kind regards, Andrei I think my main objection to gmail user interface is that spam is built-in in the form of paid advertisements that blend into the visual clutter. It is tasteless design, IMHO -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140806182736.ga26...@big.lan.gnu
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On Ma, 05 aug 14, 13:01:48, Bob Proulx wrote: Andrei POPESCU wrote: I'm not very familiar with Gmail's interface, but Outlook definitely does have threaded views. As of the last time I used Outlook a couple of years ago Outlook did not have threads but had conversations. Outlook sorted by subject line. Any message with the same subject was grouped together into a conversation whether it was related or not. And similarly if you had a discussion thread and changed the subject then in Outlook that started a new conversation. Outlook conversations grouped by subject is a poor substitute for message threading. Are you sure it is really threads and not conversations? Yes, that's exactly what I meant and I prefer real threading anytime. There are two advantages of Outlook however: - the conversation view can show messages in any folder - search folders I can recreate some of that with notmuch, but I would like to experiment with mutt-kz (RFP #698672) as I don't use emacs. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
Andrei POPESCU wrote: Bob Proulx wrote: P.S. I still think digests are less desirable because I don't see a way to view the discussion in a threaded view. Threaded views have been around for so long that I couldn't live without them. Of course Gmail and Outlook users don't have threaded views. But I am sure that if they did they wouldn't want to not have them either. I'm not very familiar with Gmail's interface, but Outlook definitely does have threaded views. As of the last time I used Outlook a couple of years ago Outlook did not have threads but had conversations. Outlook sorted by subject line. Any message with the same subject was grouped together into a conversation whether it was related or not. And similarly if you had a discussion thread and changed the subject then in Outlook that started a new conversation. Outlook conversations grouped by subject is a poor substitute for message threading. Are you sure it is really threads and not conversations? Gmail also only supports the same group by subject model. However for the Google Groups web forum postings they do thread those. If you use the web to post a reply to a Google Group web forum then that message stays attached to the message it was a reply. But as far as I can see all email only has subject grouping. I am currently using Gmail and Google Groups in conjuction with a school which uses it and I find it quite annoying compared to a real mailer. This grouping by subject means that I now routinely tag subject lines of generic messages such as Dinner? with a date code in order to make routine subjects different. Otherwise they would all get grouped into one long conversation. Unfortunately by activating it you also have to use reverse chronological sorting by the newest message in the thread, which is very annoying for me. I find that upside-down sorting annoying too. Bob signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On 20140805_0004+0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 04 aug 14, 08:52:17, Paul E Condon wrote: I've spent some time recently, trying to use the Gmail browser interface. I would never switch to it from Mutt, excepting only if Microsoft does a corporate take-over of Debian (They are both corporations under the Law, and under the Law, strange, unnatural things can happen, as explained in a recent post by Lisi) Debian is definitely not a corporation under any law and any thing resembling a takeover would involve controlling something like 2 thirds of its members (to be able to change Foundation documents, etc.). You might want to read the Constitution: http://www.debian.org/devel/constitution In USA, where I live, a recent Supreme Court decision is that a Corporation has more standing Law than a Human if the Human is a female. In USA, things are very strange, by standards of Europe. More like what Lisi describes in Australia, but without a living, human Sovereign person. But I really don't think Microsoft has much interest in a take-over of Debian. It would be more difficult than running Ukraine, IMHO. ;) -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140806022414.ga25...@big.lan.gnu
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On Dom, 03 Ago 2014, Bob Proulx wrote: The inability of people to deal with digest messages these days is the main reason I think digests should be removed as a mailing list option. +1 to that. I'd also like a filter that rejects mails that have Re: (and variations) in the Subject and no In-Reply-To or References. (That's very easy to circumvent, but I guess the people that would have mails blocked by that filter are exactly the ones that would have trouble with this very simple thing.) -- Eduardo M KALINOWSKI edua...@kalinowski.com.br -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140804131209.horde.i_qgknuexeaob1-se8r0...@mail.kalinowski.com.br
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On 20140803_1328-0600, Bob Proulx wrote: Bob Proulx wrote: I used a variety of mailers back then and I don't recall which ones handled digests nicely and which did not. I just tested mutt and digests and mutt handles message digests quite well. And furthermore because the Debian lists includes the individual messages as MIME attements it doesn't need to burst the digest apart first. That is an improvement over previous digests I have seen. To test I subscribed to the digest form of the list in order to get some digest messages to test. Looking at a message in mutt I see that each message comes as an message/rfc822 MIME attachment. In mutt I view the MIME attachment structure with 'v' in order to see the individual messages. I select one message and view it with Return. Mutt displays that message individually. I can forward-message, reply, group-reply, list-reply all normally. Mutt sets the message headers appropriately. Everything works. This should work with any mailer that gives the ability to view MIME attached message/rfc822 parts individually and list-reply to them. Don't list-reply to the digest. Instead list-reply to the individual message that is MIME attached to the digest. Bob P.S. I still think digests are less desirable because I don't see a way to view the discussion in a threaded view. Threaded views have been around for so long that I couldn't live without them. Of course Gmail and Outlook users don't have threaded views. But I am sure that if they did they wouldn't want to not have them either. I've spent some time recently, trying to use the Gmail browser interface. I would never switch to it from Mutt, excepting only if Microsoft does a corporate take-over of Debian (They are both corporations under the Law, and under the Law, strange, unnatural things can happen, as explained in a recent post by Lisi) I think the digest form is a thing of the past. It is impossible to keep up with all the different threads of thought that are mixed together in a single digest. The digest form is probably slower than individual emails *because*of* the extra mental effort of disentangling the threads. YMMV, etc. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140804145217.gb19...@big.lan.gnu
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On Du, 03 aug 14, 13:28:06, Bob Proulx wrote: P.S. I still think digests are less desirable because I don't see a way to view the discussion in a threaded view. Threaded views have been around for so long that I couldn't live without them. Of course Gmail and Outlook users don't have threaded views. But I am sure that if they did they wouldn't want to not have them either. I'm not very familiar with Gmail's interface, but Outlook definitely does have threaded views. Unfortunately by activating it you also have to use reverse chronological sorting by the newest message in the thread, which is very annoying for me. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On Lu, 04 aug 14, 08:52:17, Paul E Condon wrote: I've spent some time recently, trying to use the Gmail browser interface. I would never switch to it from Mutt, excepting only if Microsoft does a corporate take-over of Debian (They are both corporations under the Law, and under the Law, strange, unnatural things can happen, as explained in a recent post by Lisi) Debian is definitely not a corporation under any law and any thing resembling a takeover would involve controlling something like 2 thirds of its members (to be able to change Foundation documents, etc.). You might want to read the Constitution: http://www.debian.org/devel/constitution Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On Monday 04 August 2014 21:58:36 Andrei POPESCU wrote: I'm not very familiar with Gmail's interface Lucky you. ;-) Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140804.08619.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 09:42:53 +0100 Brad Rogers b...@fineby.me.uk wrote: On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 10:14:20 +0300 David Baron d_ba...@012.net.il wrote: Hello David, Or is there some header or marker I should be hitting as well? Reference and/or Reply-To headers. The digest, depending on /exactly/ how it as constructed and /exactly/ how you reply, won't necessarily carry the right headers to put your response into the original thread. In fact, more often than not, they don't. Unfortunately, simply changing the Subject to the correct one is rarely enough. :-( Yes, but *not* changing the Subject is an atrocity. I've often thought of piping everything with digest type Subjects to /dev/null. Another atrocity is these guys who leave the entire digest intact when replying. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140803105500.3b053...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 10:55:00 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Hello Steve, Yes, but *not* changing the Subject is an atrocity. I've often thought of piping everything with digest type Subjects to /dev/null. Another atrocity is these guys who leave the entire digest intact when replying. I tend to agree with you, Steve. On a list like this one where people are, usually quite au fait with the relevant technology. Unfortunately, I'm subscribed to many, *many* mailing lists that are populated by people that have no idea how an MUA /actually/ works. I see umpteen ways of quoting text, many of which don't show as quoted here, due to the way it's been done. Quite an achievement, given that 99.% of MUAs quote correctly out of the box. Then there's the top posting, bottom posting, not trimming, changing the Subject to (falsely) start a new thread but *not* changing the Subject of the digest I could go on. And on. Frankly, I've given up. Personally, I feel that Sheldon Cooper(1) has the right idea; We shouldn't kill everyone that can't cope with the technology, but if we make an example of a few, it'll give the rest incentive to learn. (1) A 'Big Bang Theory' character for those that don't know. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent You couldn't find your feet, if you were looking for them I Don't Like You - Stiff Little Fingers signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 16:41:17 +0100 Brad Rogers b...@fineby.me.uk wrote: Quite an achievement, given that 99.% of MUAs quote correctly out of the box. I'm fairly old to Debian. I run a few email servers. I know the ins and outs of lots of things. And yet, I've rarely posted to mailing lists. So, I don't know what I'm doing with regards to top/bottom postings, quoting, etc... There are many good reasons why a particular person's mail client is configured to be incompatible with the correct list methodology. Mine is probably horrible configured -- or was. I'm working on getting it right. However, this requires a few test sends, and it also means that regular email to other people needs to be configured differently. I know a tremendously large number of people who truly are angered when they receive a 72 character limited, bottom posted, indented with replies... So, many people don't bother reconfiguring their mail client just to be correct --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140803123816.927ed73411035eb443cb0...@1024bits.com
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 12:38:16 -0400 AW debian.list.trac...@1024bits.com wrote: Hello AW, lists. So, I don't know what I'm doing with regards to top/bottom postings, quoting, etc... There are many good reasons why a particular Based on that and what you go on to say, it's obvious you're willing to learn about what is or isn't acceptable in various places. Highly commendable. On the non-tech lists I referred to in my post there are plenty of people that simply have no idea how to configure their MUA (or web i/f if that's what they use). They simply mash away at the keyboard and hope for the best. Even if I had access to the software they use, any attempt to walk them through a sensible set-up procedure would undoubtedly fail. Given the various issues with quote styles, etc. my strategy is to ignore their posts; Life's too short to try and fathom who said what to whom in their mails. I may miss out on a few gems of info, but that's my problem. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent Keep your drink just give em the money U Ur Hand - P!nk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
David Baron wrote: Replying from the digest breaks threads. I eschew KDE 4, so I don't know about KMail in KDE4, but KDE3 KMail does not break threads. I do not understand the difference. If I hit reply, so I get the title of the digest which I replace with the desired re: Should not this be OK. It is not okay because you have not set In-Reply-To nor References properly. That breaks threading. Or is there some header or marker I should be hitting as well? The inability of people to deal with digest messages these days is the main reason I think digests should be removed as a mailing list option. Since so few people understand how email works it means that the majority of digest users do things that cause problems. I know it isn't malicious. But it causes problems just the same. We should stop offering the option of digest problems. In the old days of UUCP mail a digest was useful to bundle a bunch of mail up into one phone call. In the old days in the mid 1980's one would receive a message digest for a bundle of messages from the mailing list for the entire day all in one phone call rather than individually all throughout the day in possibly several hundred phone calls. It was more efficient and didn't tie up the phone long as long. IMNHO if you don't have a POTS phone line UUCP connection then you don't need digests. :-) Of course if you are still using a POTS phone line and UUCP then a tip-of-the-hat to you for keeping such history alive and running! In order to read a digest (or at least to reply to a message within it) one would burst the digest open into individual messages. Or undigestify it. This splits the single digest into the same individual messages that we all normally see. It allows your mailer to thread messages into discussion threads. Then reply to the individual message normally. I used a variety of mailers back then and I don't recall which ones handled digests nicely and which did not. Some possibilities were Elm, Emacs GNUS or Emacs RMAIL, and other specialized scripts for dealing with digests. These days digests are so rarely used that most mailers do not include the commands needed to burst the digest open into individual messages anymore. The user base for such a feature would be extremely small. I see it as basically dead technology now. The digest itself will include the Message-Id of each message. When burst apart and replied to individually your mailer will set the In-Reply-To properly to preserve threading. Unfortunately the Debian list digests do not include any References header and so will breaking threading if there are previous missing messages but that is minor. To summarize the above, if you are subscribed to the digest then you should burst it apart into individual messages before replying. Then reply to the individual message. If you understand mail headers and are doing all of that work manually that is okay too. But if you are not doing anything like that then you are causing trouble for all of the rest of us trying to make sense of your replies. Bob signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
Bob Proulx wrote: I used a variety of mailers back then and I don't recall which ones handled digests nicely and which did not. I just tested mutt and digests and mutt handles message digests quite well. And furthermore because the Debian lists includes the individual messages as MIME attements it doesn't need to burst the digest apart first. That is an improvement over previous digests I have seen. To test I subscribed to the digest form of the list in order to get some digest messages to test. Looking at a message in mutt I see that each message comes as an message/rfc822 MIME attachment. In mutt I view the MIME attachment structure with 'v' in order to see the individual messages. I select one message and view it with Return. Mutt displays that message individually. I can forward-message, reply, group-reply, list-reply all normally. Mutt sets the message headers appropriately. Everything works. This should work with any mailer that gives the ability to view MIME attached message/rfc822 parts individually and list-reply to them. Don't list-reply to the digest. Instead list-reply to the individual message that is MIME attached to the digest. Bob P.S. I still think digests are less desirable because I don't see a way to view the discussion in a threaded view. Threaded views have been around for so long that I couldn't live without them. Of course Gmail and Outlook users don't have threaded views. But I am sure that if they did they wouldn't want to not have them either. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On Wednesday 30 July 2014 02:52:38 debian-user-digest-requ...@lists.debian.org wrote: When you reply threading is broken. Surely you can see that. Could be kmail of course. Replying from the digest breaks threads. I eschew KDE 4, so I don't know about KMail in KDE4, but KDE3 KMail does not break threads. I do not understand the difference. If I hit reply, so I get the title of the digest which I replace with the desired re: Should not this be OK. Or is there some header or marker I should be hitting as well? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2739965.9pxbZbNjM1@dovidhalevi
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 10:14:20 +0300 David Baron d_ba...@012.net.il wrote: Hello David, Or is there some header or marker I should be hitting as well? Reference and/or Reply-To headers. The digest, depending on /exactly/ how it as constructed and /exactly/ how you reply, won't necessarily carry the right headers to put your response into the original thread. In fact, more often than not, they don't. Unfortunately, simply changing the Subject to the correct one is rarely enough. :-( -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent Now I found you out, I don't think you're so smart Who Are You - Black Sabbath signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 07/30/2014 04:42 AM, Brad Rogers wrote: On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 10:14:20 +0300 David Baron d_ba...@012.net.il wrote: Hello David, Or is there some header or marker I should be hitting as well? Reference and/or Reply-To headers. (References: and In-Reply-To:, surely?) There was a somewhat more detailed, albeit considerably less concise, thread discussing this on this list just over a month ago. See here: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/06/msg01552.html - -- The Wanderer Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny. A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJT2ORbAAoJEASpNY00KDJrZR8P/3QzvbrhsjQvFCrGPioMd3ZJ gODe4H8DsC9eS/GUwgCdi85pZZhn2Hib+OlyLg0V367EG+GFNeVzsff5FhsPLHTU gnDHFnbb1xRMJC56B2HEiDkGC7Hd/SswFRsXVHjQsvLouimpyQ13bzTA07VRDE84 7bhQ9ckWPL9E2FUuTht0hrwZ2zCmZsJYaAgeFttgD/NWB6LIW3iRuuiMU9QpxMGR IAm0kkNq9w1KZljOvNw4lQskHxQFRzGaYrfSuV9b5tBQ6VaI/INdtcSx7MKR7doV myqhDtd7Y9LQIYRLVIpTHjEmtMpU7gRfH7fGx4GFiQfoeYO7b/CxkerAyllbAnzO rvzgkB+76INwW0uBubR0naLKx50EOTQJgc+ocxIhYeCSxUELYschrVeDWFYt1P2b xDgg0e8HdczHYNEKYrdPnOk7X/EVwis4G8pqjK1cmopR48DK9HGg1JBO/b22pYom kk73wC+IHKJWhRxcKIpW1MflzhM9JrSByH8fAgqj0Mlv2POqqc3jmo2XxXw9/Wpm goPGOAHRCjCDE7CTQlE3/3hQn0cEA8qQLDP+lQh1YUI4vyjZSGC2aeEWeTZ92/m+ k8SwzN23am3i6T67jTxcvLE8nb1cYwoauG7qG6lvtxeKfV6/usTy/xneDljDYOH6 qVHk0RafkBcpbSP+NYVS =SUDK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53d8e45c.50...@fastmail.fm
Re: Threading using digest and kmail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 08:26:04 -0400 The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm wrote: Hello The, (References: and In-Reply-To:, surely?) You are, of course, right. My brain was waaay ahead of my fingers at the time. My apologies for any confusion caused. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent I don't believe you have to be an idiot to get somewhere these days Bombsite Boy - The Adverts signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Threading using digest and KMail (was Re: Exim4 not routing local mail ... )
On Wednesday 30 July 2014 08:14:20 David Baron wrote: I do not understand the difference. If I hit reply, so I get the title of the digest which I replace with the desired re: Should not this be OK. No. It gives rise to a new thread, with the digest data, which is not the same as the header data for the individual mails. This is a perennial problem. Is there no way you could subscribe properly? Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201407301956.47292.lisi.re...@gmail.com
