Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-22 Thread Andrei Popescu
On Lu, 21 feb 11, 22:39:46, Peter Tynan wrote:
 On 21 February 2011 21:24, Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Maybe this is mutt specific, but if I just delete the mail from Inbox in
  All Mail the message is still marked as unread (a.k.a new). If I mark it
  as read and sync, then it's also marked as read in All Mail. I assume
  Gmail takes the delete from Inbox command quite literally and doesn't
  also mark the message as read first.
 
  I guess I can write a macro to remap 'd' to
  toggle-newsync-mailboxdelete-message instead...
 
 The behaviour for expunge can be set in the IMAP bit of the Gmail settings.

That's not what I mean. Anyway, I solved this with these two macros:

macro pager d sync-mailboxdelete-message
macro index d toggle-newsync-mailboxdelete-message

but I'm considering using a dedicated key than 'd' because this is 
actually archiving and map d to a move-to-gmail-trash macro.

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-22 Thread Andrei Popescu
On Lu, 21 feb 11, 20:26:45, Petrus Validus wrote:
   Is there a way for this to be disabled and subsequently have 
   messages be displayed in their specific folders...or is this just how 
   Gmail works?
  
  This one of the better innovation brought by Gmail, if used correctly. 
 
 I interpret the if used correctly bit to mean using the GMail web 
 interface, not a 3rd party client such as Evolution or Mutt.  Am I 
 correct in this interpretation?

No, I mean, AFAICT, IMAP was not designed for this paradigm (same 
message present in different folders/tags/views/whatever).

Mutt with the correct macros and folder-hooks can be bent into adapting 
to Gmail's style, mostly...

I presume plugins for Icedove can be (already are?) written. 
Functionality similar to Gmail's can be seen in Outlook's search 
folders, Opera (forgot the name), notmuch, sup, ..., each with its own 
set of problems and/or limitations.
 
  Unfortunately it's not very usable via IMAP. 
 
 I read somewhere in my travels across the Web today while researching 
 this that Google only has partial implementation of IMAP.  I don't know 
 how accurate that is since I don't the underlying details of this 
 protocol.

I didn't notice any lack of functionality, but I doubt I'm using the 
full functionality of IMAP.

  Example:
  How do I tell mutt to tag the message as read in All Mail when I delete 
  it (archive in Gmail speak) from Inbox?
 
 There's a Gmail Labs thing that has extensive IMAP controls which will 
 do that.  Another poster suggested that to me.

Unless I'm missing something it does *not* do what I want, but I worked 
around it with mutt macros (see my other post).

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-22 Thread Petrus Validus
  I interpret the if used correctly bit to mean using the GMail web 
  interface, not a 3rd party client such as Evolution or Mutt.  Am I 
  correct in this interpretation?
 
 No, I mean, AFAICT, IMAP was not designed for this paradigm (same 
 message present in different folders/tags/views/whatever).

I've also come to that conclusion.  I think we're saying the same thing 
just different words (maybe?).  It looks like to me this paradigm was 
designed for use on Gmail's own interface and that's it.

 Mutt with the correct macros and folder-hooks can be bent into adapting 
 to Gmail's style, mostly...

I'm still new to Mutt so I will have to look into this much further, not 
to mention doing some manual reading.

 Unless I'm missing something it does *not* do what I want, but I worked 
 around it with mutt macros (see my other post).

Heh...I noticed that too.  I'll take a look at your post.

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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-22 Thread Peter Tynan

On Tue, 22 Feb 2011, Petrus Validus wrote:


I interpret the if used correctly bit to mean using the GMail web
interface, not a 3rd party client such as Evolution or Mutt.  Am I
correct in this interpretation?


No, I mean, AFAICT, IMAP was not designed for this paradigm (same
message present in different folders/tags/views/whatever).


I've also come to that conclusion.  I think we're saying the same thing
just different words (maybe?).  It looks like to me this paradigm was
designed for use on Gmail's own interface and that's it.


Mutt with the correct macros and folder-hooks can be bent into adapting
to Gmail's style, mostly...


I'm still new to Mutt so I will have to look into this much further, not
to mention doing some manual reading.


Unless I'm missing something it does *not* do what I want, but I worked
around it with mutt macros (see my other post).


Heh...I noticed that too.  I'll take a look at your post.


With the google labs thing, the delete/move to bin options only work if 
the message is only in a single IMAP folder thus it will never work if you 
are subscribed to the All Mail folder (unless it is only in the all mail 
folder), if you go to the labels section in the GMail settings you can 
unsubscribed All Mail as an IMAP folder.



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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-22 Thread Andrei Popescu
On Ma, 22 feb 11, 09:18:12, Petrus Validus wrote:
   I interpret the if used correctly bit to mean using the GMail web 
   interface, not a 3rd party client such as Evolution or Mutt.  Am I 
   correct in this interpretation?
  
  No, I mean, AFAICT, IMAP was not designed for this paradigm (same 
  message present in different folders/tags/views/whatever).
 
 I've also come to that conclusion.  I think we're saying the same thing 
 just different words (maybe?).  It looks like to me this paradigm was 
 designed for use on Gmail's own interface and that's it.

It's not impossible, but you'd have to (re)design the IMAP client around 
Gmail. Example:

The client only ever downloads full messages in a local copy of 'All 
Mail', 'Spam' and 'Trash'. It the user wants to see messages in 'Inbox' 
(a.k.a messages with the 'Inbox' tag) it only downloads the headers and 
compares by msg-id to the messages in 'All Mail'.

I wonder if the clients designed by Google work this way...

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-21 Thread Russell Gadd
There is effectively a list reply feature in gmail. Hit Reply to all
and debian-user@lists.debian.org appears in the cc field. For this
reply I have removed the To address and just kept the cc address.

However I use Icedove for newsgroups and also a gmail account where I
automatically archive the debian user posts. This allows me to use the
gmail search feature if I want to look for something. If I find it
with gmail I can reply there or jump into Icedove to find the thread.

I find Icedove's search is poor, and if you find a post to view it
opens in a new window rather than finding it in the main window where
the thread could be seen.

Russell

On 21 February 2011 06:57, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote:
 On 02/21/2011 12:17 AM, Peter Tynan wrote:

 On Sun, 20 Feb 2011, Ron Johnson wrote:

 Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 23:54:27 -0600
 From: Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net
 To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
 Subject: Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old
 machines for
 firewall/router use)
 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 05:54:49 + (UTC)
 Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org

 I keep my current D-User folder (relatively) small by having
 maildrop filter emails into quarterly folders.


 Does that not make searching a pain in the posterior?


 A bit.

 (It just occurred to me that such filtering isn't useful with gmail... )

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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-21 Thread Petrus Validus
 Get away from the web interface.  Install Icedove/Evolution/Mutt and use 
 Google's IMAPs interface.

I use Evolution and Mutt with Google's IMAP interface.  It works nicely 
but I've noticed this quirky behavior when using a client via IMAP.  My 
messages appear in multiple places at the same time.  

For instance I'll have new mail display in Inbox, All Mail (where 
*everything* is), and then in the individual labels (or folders).  
Pretty funky.  At first I just thought it was an Evolution thing, 
but I've tested it with Outlook 2003, Thunderbird, and Mutt.  I am 
assuming that each message isn't actually being delivered three times 
and just listed in different folders within the account.

Is there a way for this to be disabled and subsequently have 
messages be displayed in their specific folders...or is this just how 
Gmail works?
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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-21 Thread Andrei Popescu
On Lu, 21 feb 11, 12:59:56, Petrus Validus wrote:
  Get away from the web interface.  Install Icedove/Evolution/Mutt and use 
  Google's IMAPs interface.
 
 I use Evolution and Mutt with Google's IMAP interface.  It works nicely 
 but I've noticed this quirky behavior when using a client via IMAP.  My 
 messages appear in multiple places at the same time.  
 
 For instance I'll have new mail display in Inbox, All Mail (where 
 *everything* is), and then in the individual labels (or folders).  
 Pretty funky.  At first I just thought it was an Evolution thing, 
 but I've tested it with Outlook 2003, Thunderbird, and Mutt.  I am 
 assuming that each message isn't actually being delivered three times 
 and just listed in different folders within the account.
 
 Is there a way for this to be disabled and subsequently have 
 messages be displayed in their specific folders...or is this just how 
 Gmail works?

This one of the better innovation brought by Gmail, if used correctly. 

Unfortunately it's not very usable via IMAP. Example:
How do I tell mutt to tag the message as read in All Mail when I delete 
it (archive in Gmail speak) from Inbox?

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-21 Thread Peter Tynan

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011, Petrus Validus wrote:


Get away from the web interface.  Install Icedove/Evolution/Mutt and use
Google's IMAPs interface.


I use Evolution and Mutt with Google's IMAP interface.  It works nicely
but I've noticed this quirky behavior when using a client via IMAP.  My
messages appear in multiple places at the same time.

For instance I'll have new mail display in Inbox, All Mail (where
*everything* is), and then in the individual labels (or folders).
Pretty funky.  At first I just thought it was an Evolution thing,
but I've tested it with Outlook 2003, Thunderbird, and Mutt.  I am
assuming that each message isn't actually being delivered three times
and just listed in different folders within the account.

Is there a way for this to be disabled and subsequently have
messages be displayed in their specific folders...or is this just how
Gmail works?


Although the powerful filtering abilities of Pine/Alpine was one of the 
things that attracted me to it that was over a decade ago, today I let 
gmail do the filtering...


'All Mail' - I'm not subscribed to this (imap?) folder and by its nature 
there is not a lot you do to keep mail out of it.


'Inbox' - one of the options when creating a gmail filter (to apply a 
tag/move to imap folder) is for the message to be archived (i.e. skip the 
Inbox) - I'm thinking this is the option you are looking for?



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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-21 Thread Peter Tynan

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011, Andrei Popescu wrote:


On Lu, 21 feb 11, 12:59:56, Petrus Validus wrote:

This one of the better innovation brought by Gmail, if used correctly.

Unfortunately it's not very usable via IMAP. Example:
How do I tell mutt to tag the message as read in All Mail when I delete
it (archive in Gmail speak) from Inbox?


My solution (not sure if solution is the right word bu hey ho...) is that 
nothing is untagged (remember that 'Inbox' is just a tag).  If something is 
deleted it is gone, if I want to keep something but not have it littering 
up my Inbox a tag is applied and it is the archived.


On a slightly different note does anybody know the correct FCC to move sent 
items to Googles 'sent' folder, at the moment I have the somewhat 
unsatisfactory arrangement of stuff sent by Alpine ending up in a separate 
folder.


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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-21 Thread Andrei Popescu
On Lu, 21 feb 11, 20:49:49, Peter Tynan wrote:
 On Mon, 21 Feb 2011, Andrei Popescu wrote:
 
 On Lu, 21 feb 11, 12:59:56, Petrus Validus wrote:
 
 This one of the better innovation brought by Gmail, if used correctly.
 
 Unfortunately it's not very usable via IMAP. Example:
 How do I tell mutt to tag the message as read in All Mail when I delete
 it (archive in Gmail speak) from Inbox?
 
 My solution (not sure if solution is the right word bu hey ho...) is
 that nothing is untagged (remember that 'Inbox' is just a tag).  If
 something is deleted it is gone, if I want to keep something but not
 have it littering up my Inbox a tag is applied and it is the
 archived.

Hmm, as far as I understand, a message is always present in [Gmail]/All 
Mail', unless moved to [Gmail]/Trash or [Gmail]/Spam. New mail (not 
filtered) goes to my Inbox. If I want to get rid of it for good I move 
it to [Gmail]/Trash, but if I want to archive it I just delete the 
Inbox tag for it, since the mail still has the All Mail tag.

Maybe this is mutt specific, but if I just delete the mail from Inbox in 
All Mail the message is still marked as unread (a.k.a new). If I mark it 
as read and sync, then it's also marked as read in All Mail. I assume 
Gmail takes the delete from Inbox command quite literally and doesn't 
also mark the message as read first.

I guess I can write a macro to remap 'd' to 
toggle-newsync-mailboxdelete-message instead...

 On a slightly different note does anybody know the correct FCC to
 move sent items to Googles 'sent' folder, at the moment I have the
 somewhat unsatisfactory arrangement of stuff sent by Alpine ending
 up in a separate folder.

If you send via Gmail's SMTP you always have a copy in Gmail's sent, so 
it should be enough to tell alpine not to save its own copy.

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-21 Thread Peter Tynan

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011, Andrei Popescu wrote:

If you send via Gmail's SMTP you always have a copy in Gmail's sent, so
it should be enough to tell alpine not to save its own copy.


Check the headers - I use a local sendmail.  I've been doing some digging 
and it is in a sub-folder named Google Mail, the sub-folder used to be 
named Gmail but a while ago that stopped working so I think I now have a 
fix :)


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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-21 Thread Peter Tynan
On 21 February 2011 21:24, Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:

 Maybe this is mutt specific, but if I just delete the mail from Inbox in
 All Mail the message is still marked as unread (a.k.a new). If I mark it
 as read and sync, then it's also marked as read in All Mail. I assume
 Gmail takes the delete from Inbox command quite literally and doesn't
 also mark the message as read first.

 I guess I can write a macro to remap 'd' to
 toggle-newsync-mailboxdelete-message instead...

The behaviour for expunge can be set in the IMAP bit of the Gmail settings.

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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-21 Thread Petrus Validus
  Is there a way for this to be disabled and subsequently have 
  messages be displayed in their specific folders...or is this just how 
  Gmail works?
 
 This one of the better innovation brought by Gmail, if used correctly. 

I interpret the if used correctly bit to mean using the GMail web 
interface, not a 3rd party client such as Evolution or Mutt.  Am I 
correct in this interpretation?

 Unfortunately it's not very usable via IMAP. 

I read somewhere in my travels across the Web today while researching 
this that Google only has partial implementation of IMAP.  I don't know 
how accurate that is since I don't the underlying details of this 
protocol.

 Example:
 How do I tell mutt to tag the message as read in All Mail when I delete 
 it (archive in Gmail speak) from Inbox?

There's a Gmail Labs thing that has extensive IMAP controls which will 
do that.  Another poster suggested that to me.

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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-21 Thread Petrus Validus
 Hmm, as far as I understand, a message is always present in [Gmail]/All 
 Mail', unless moved to [Gmail]/Trash or [Gmail]/Spam. New mail (not 
 filtered) goes to my Inbox. If I want to get rid of it for good I move 
 it to [Gmail]/Trash, but if I want to archive it I just delete the 
 Inbox tag for it, since the mail still has the All Mail tag.

Yes.  The way Gmail works is different to say the least.
 
 Maybe this is mutt specific, but if I just delete the mail from Inbox in 
 All Mail the message is still marked as unread (a.k.a new).

I experience this same issue when using other clients, notably 
Evolution, Outlook, and Mutt.  I end up with a lot of duplicate messages 
even though there is only one original message delivered to my Gmail 
account.  This makes things confusing.

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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-20 Thread Peter Tynan

On Sun, 20 Feb 2011, Ron Johnson wrote:


Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 22:02:48 -0600
From: Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for
firewall/router use)
Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 04:03:05 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org

On 02/20/2011 09:42 PM, Heddle Weaver wrote:

Got to get away from gmail. No list reply feature.



Get away from the web interface.  Install Icedove/Evolution/Mutt and use 
Google's IMAPs interface.



I use Alpine but the important thing when using imap with gmail is to 
limit the size of the folder, I've something like 15,000+ messages tagged 
Debian in gmail and opening that lot up as folder using imap a) takes 
forever b) is enough to crash alpine on my shell account. Google labs have 
a feature that allows you to limit the size of an imap folder (I have it 
set to 2,000).

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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-20 Thread Ron Johnson

On 02/20/2011 11:01 PM, Peter Tynan wrote:

On Sun, 20 Feb 2011, Ron Johnson wrote:


Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 22:02:48 -0600
From: Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old
machines for
firewall/router use)
Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 04:03:05 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org

On 02/20/2011 09:42 PM, Heddle Weaver wrote:

Got to get away from gmail. No list reply feature.



Get away from the web interface. Install Icedove/Evolution/Mutt
and use Google's IMAPs interface.



I use Alpine but the important thing when using imap with gmail is
to limit the size of the folder, I've something like 15,000+
messages tagged Debian in gmail and opening that lot up as folder
using imap a) takes forever b) is enough to crash alpine on my shell
account. Google labs have a feature that allows you to limit the
size of an imap folder (I have it set to 2,000).


I keep my current D-User folder (relatively) small by having 
maildrop filter emails into quarterly folders.


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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-20 Thread Peter Tynan

On Sun, 20 Feb 2011, Ron Johnson wrote:


Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 23:54:27 -0600
From: Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for
 firewall/router use)
Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 05:54:49 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org

On 02/20/2011 11:01 PM, Peter Tynan wrote:

On Sun, 20 Feb 2011, Ron Johnson wrote:


Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 22:02:48 -0600
From: Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old
machines for
firewall/router use)
Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 04:03:05 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org

On 02/20/2011 09:42 PM, Heddle Weaver wrote:

Got to get away from gmail. No list reply feature.



Get away from the web interface. Install Icedove/Evolution/Mutt
and use Google's IMAPs interface.



I use Alpine but the important thing when using imap with gmail is


I keep my current D-User folder (relatively) small by having maildrop 
filter emails into quarterly folders.





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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-20 Thread Peter Tynan

On Sun, 20 Feb 2011, Ron Johnson wrote:


Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 23:54:27 -0600
From: Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for
 firewall/router use)
Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 05:54:49 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org

I keep my current D-User folder (relatively) small by having maildrop 
filter emails into quarterly folders.




Does that not make searching a pain in the posterior?

(nb: sorry, I think I may of accidently sent a half edited message)

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Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old machines for firewall/router use)

2011-02-20 Thread Ron Johnson

On 02/21/2011 12:17 AM, Peter Tynan wrote:

On Sun, 20 Feb 2011, Ron Johnson wrote:


Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 23:54:27 -0600
From: Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: To gmail or not to gmail (was Re: Fwd: selecting old
machines for
firewall/router use)
Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 05:54:49 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org

I keep my current D-User folder (relatively) small by having
maildrop filter emails into quarterly folders.



Does that not make searching a pain in the posterior?



A bit.

(It just occurred to me that such filtering isn't useful with gmail... )

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Milton Friedman


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