Re: Dependencies between components.

[Tim Woodall]

On Sat, 6 Apr 2024, Simon Hollenbach wrote:


Hi,

I have not found a mistake in your considerations about "sane"
component inter-dependency.

However, package dependencies are declared upon a package with a
suitable version, whether this package can be set-up on a bespoke
target system remains to be determined by APT when the package is
installed or upgraded. Just consider for example some manually held
packages - These might break your package install even if all the
needed packages are downloadable (All the components needed are
correctly configured in sources.list ).

I hope this helps. I'd like to understand why you are asking this
question, this might enable us to give you better-suited information.



I have local packages I can install that setup sources.list.d so if, for
example, I want to use backports, I can do:
apt-get install bookworm-backports-main-sources
and I will get an appropriate file in sources.list.d. These get
autogenerated.

To cut a long story short, I was missing having backports installed
despite me having a patched version of a backports package installed. I
then missed a security fix because although my tooling saw it and
auto-rebuilt my patched local package, it couldn't install because of
missing (new) dependencies on other packages in backports. The previous
version had installed because it didn't have dependencies on other
packages in backports.

So my local packages that add files to sources.list.d now express
required dependencies - so if I have
bookworm-backports-local-main-sources installed
(which has any packages from backports that I have local changes to) I
will automatically get bookworm-backports-main-sources too.

I've never actually patched any packages from
backports-sloppy/updates/proposed-updates but while I was at it
I thought it made sense to add dependencies for those too so if I ever
do use backports-sloppy, I will get backports too rather than have to
remember to manually install it.

Tim.

Re: Dependencies between components.

[Simon Hollenbach]

Hi,

I have not found a mistake in your considerations about "sane"
component inter-dependency.

However, package dependencies are declared upon a package with a
suitable version, whether this package can be set-up on a bespoke
target system remains to be determined by APT when the package is
installed or upgraded. Just consider for example some manually held
packages - These might break your package install even if all the
needed packages are downloadable (All the components needed are
correctly configured in sources.list ).

I hope this helps. I'd like to understand why you are asking this
question, this might enable us to give you better-suited information.

Ciao,
Simon

P.S.: I am sorry for first sending this to Tim directly - I should
take extra care when using this weird web interface here.

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 at 18:12, Tim Woodall  wrote:
>
> Is there a wiki or something else that lays out exactly what other
> distributions and components each debian (distribution,component) tuple
> is allowed to depend on?
>
> This is what I've concluded so far.
>
> I'm assuming transitive dependencies are allowed, e.g.
> bookworm-updates-contrib can depend on bookworm-non-free so I've
> considered the dependencies between distributions with the same
> component and the dependencies between components of the same
> distribution separately.
>
>
> First considering the distribution dependencies. All of these are
> always allowed between the same component.
>
> bookworm-proposed-updates : bookworm
> bookworm-updates  : bookworm
> bookworm-backports-sloppy : bookworm-backports bookworm
> bookworm-backports: bookworm
>
> I believe that updates is a subset of proposed-updates so dependency
> on updates by proposed-updates is moot
>
> I'm unclear whether backports is allowed to depend on -updates but I
> assume not as I've not seen anything saying that you need to enable
> -updates if you enable -backports. I guess the backporter would have to
> wait for the point release if they ever needed something only in
> bookworm-updates (it's hard to imagine many cases where a -updates
> package would be required for backporting so this is somewhat
> theoretical - I think it's only if there's a security update involved)
>
>
> Now considering the dependencies between components in the same
> distribution:
>
> contrib  : non-free non-free-firmware main
> non-free : non-free-firmware main
> non-free-firmware: main
>
> Some sources seem to say that non-free depends on contrib while others
> say contrib depends on non-free. My understanding on contrib is that it
> is for packages that cannot be in main because they depend on non-free
> even though they're otherwise free. But I'm not sure if there's a two
> way dependency here.
>
> I'm assuming that non-free-firmware cannot depend on non-free or contrib
> - that would seem to defeat the goal of non-free-firmware - although I
> could see a case where a firmware loader is in contrib while the
> firmware itself is in non-free so I'm not sure exactly what is allowed
> or expected here.
>

Re: Dependencies between components.

[Max Nikulin]

On 30/03/2024 22:54, Tim Woodall wrote:

I'm unclear whether backports is allowed to depend on -updates


You have not mentioned bookworm-security.


contrib  : non-free non-free-firmware main
non-free : non-free-firmware main
non-free-firmware    : main


https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#archive-areas
2.2. Archive areas in Debian Policy Manual

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Felmon Davis]

On Mon, 7 Oct 2019, Michael Stone wrote:


On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 04:39:56PM +0300, Reco wrote:

No, I got you first time. Rather it's my response deviated elsewhere.

I see nothing in those three packages that would qualify as "xyzzy".
Alternatives? No. Mime types registration? No.
About the only common thing about all three packages is that they are
GUI archivers.
I do not question a choice of these three archivers as "lxqt"
dependency. What I do question is the kind of dependency itself.


I don't agree that responding to a troll will lead to a beneficial outcome. 
In this case, unless you're specifically trying to remove all of these 
specific dependencies (for no apparent reason) *it simply doesn't matter*. 
Saying, "there was a troll post which shows that this is an issue" just isn't 
compelling. Are there any real users with valid use cases for which this as 
an issue? If not, why encourage another dozen messages about it?


not sure about encouraging a dozen messages as such but the discussion 
has been very instructive for me at least.


fjd

--
Felmon Davis

Re: Dependencies et al

[Brian]

On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 20:49:08 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Brian wrote:
> > I am still wondering what use it is to "check for the existence of
> > that LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before*
> > replying to e-mail". How does it affect the actions one takes?
> 
> As said, i use it as guideline whether to add a Cc: for the thread starter.
> If i write an answer, then i want it to be read.

I am not overly bothered whether my answers are read. That is up to the
OP. For all I know, all my mails are deleted on sight by all users on
this list. :)

> > Or is it just another facet of cargo cult?
> 
> Cargo cult is the advise to burn DVDs with speed 1.

:)

-- 
Brian.

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Michael Stone]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 10:05:30PM +0300, Reco wrote:

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 02:45:29PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 09:17:21PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 01:54:17PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> > I don't agree that responding to a troll will lead to a beneficial outcome.
>
> You're entitled to your option, of course.

For context, the most recent message from that account started out with:


And, for the context, I was referring to the child of the original
e-mail, which stated:

This is harassment because you force me to use either
Xarchiver or Ark, you don't give me the choice to use none.
...
All normal package managers would just remove everything
that depends on Xarchiver, not force me to install alternative.


Whenever it's a harassment it's for an appropriate Debian Team to
decide, of course.


No, reasonable people can evaluate it on their own without an appeal to 
authority. Trying to legitimize an inappropriate email is worse for the 
overall well-being of the list than just ignoring it, and hand-wringing 
over whether there was a good point hidden in the garbage simply 
dignifies it more than it deserves.

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Brian]

On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 14:45:29 -0400, Michael Stone wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 09:17:21PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 01:54:17PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> > > I don't agree that responding to a troll will lead to a beneficial 
> > > outcome.
> > 
> > You're entitled to your option, of course.
> 
> For context, the most recent message from that account started out with:
> 
> "I posted to publicly state that Debian developers are assholes, but
> now I see that Debian users are assholes too (just like religious cult
> of Theo de Raadt which we know as OpenBSD)."
> 
> I think most people would agree that's a troll account which isn't going to
> lead to any meaningful engagement. It's probably reasonable to assume that
> any issues raised by the troll account were selected to cause conflict, not
> to request assistance for a real problem in need of a solution.

If that had been in a submitted bug report, it would been closed within
seconds.

> > Still, there were some valid points in that e-mail.
> 
> We can certainly agree to disagree.

About the points? Yes. About the tone? No. It is unacceptable on this
list and does not deserve to be championed.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Reco]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 02:45:29PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 09:17:21PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 01:54:17PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> > > I don't agree that responding to a troll will lead to a beneficial 
> > > outcome.
> > 
> > You're entitled to your option, of course.
> 
> For context, the most recent message from that account started out with:

And, for the context, I was referring to the child of the original
e-mail, which stated:

This is harassment because you force me to use either
Xarchiver or Ark, you don't give me the choice to use none.
...
All normal package managers would just remove everything
that depends on Xarchiver, not force me to install alternative.


Whenever it's a harassment it's for an appropriate Debian Team to
decide, of course.


> I think most people would agree that's a troll account which isn't
> going to lead to any meaningful engagement.

Totally agreed. Yet even such e-mail can give a start to a meaningful
and civilized discussion, as we're currently seeing in other part of
this thread.


> It's probably reasonable to assume that any issues raised by the troll
> account were selected to cause conflict, not to request assistance for
> a real problem in need of a solution.

Hardly. OP needed to get it out their system, and choose an
inappropriate way of doing so. Ban them, and be done with it.


> > User tries to uninstall a program, for instance - "xarchiver"
> 
> Why? What is the use-case for a naive user to remove that,

I've asked to leave "gnome" metapackage as it is, as you may recall.
It's perfect as it is. GNOME is the default Debian DE, installing
something else takes skill and determination. In the process of gaining
these user tends to lose that naivity (sp?).

Reco

Re: Dependencies et al

[John Hasler]

 Michael Stone writes:
> Are there any real users with valid use cases for which this as an
> issue?

"I told it to remove xyzzy and it removed all of Gnome!" (or some other
metapackage) is a common complaint.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Brian]

On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 21:17:21 +0300, Reco wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 01:54:17PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 04:39:56PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > No, I got you first time. Rather it's my response deviated elsewhere.
> > > 
> > > I see nothing in those three packages that would qualify as "xyzzy".
> > > Alternatives? No. Mime types registration? No.
> > > About the only common thing about all three packages is that they are
> > > GUI archivers.
> > > I do not question a choice of these three archivers as "lxqt"
> > > dependency. What I do question is the kind of dependency itself.
> > 
> > I don't agree that responding to a troll will lead to a beneficial outcome.
> 
> You're entitled to your option, of course.

It is magnanimous of you to entertain that idea.

> Still, there were some valid points in that e-mail.

The "staff" on this list are entitled to work without fear of having
explicit insults and inappropriate language thrown at them, especially
when they choose to participate. The expectation is to work in a decent,
well-ordered, respectful, unviolent, and helpful environment.

It doesn't matter how valid the points made are. If you are kicking the
target in the teeth at the same time, they are not uppermost in your
mind and deserve to be ignored.

It is not just what you say - it is the way that you say it that matters.
This isn't, or shouldn't be, an anything goes list.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Dependencies et al

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Brian wrote:
> I am still wondering what use it is to "check for the existence of
> that LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before*
> replying to e-mail". How does it affect the actions one takes?

As said, i use it as guideline whether to add a Cc: for the thread starter.
If i write an answer, then i want it to be read.


> Or is it just another facet of cargo cult?

Cargo cult is the advise to burn DVDs with speed 1.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Michael Stone]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 09:17:21PM +0300, Reco wrote:

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 01:54:17PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:

I don't agree that responding to a troll will lead to a beneficial outcome.


You're entitled to your option, of course.


For context, the most recent message from that account started out with:

"I posted to publicly state that Debian developers are assholes, but
now I see that Debian users are assholes too (just like religious cult
of Theo de Raadt which we know as OpenBSD)."

I think most people would agree that's a troll account which isn't going 
to lead to any meaningful engagement. It's probably reasonable to assume 
that any issues raised by the troll account were selected to cause 
conflict, not to request assistance for a real problem in need of a 
solution.



Still, there were some valid points in that e-mail.


We can certainly agree to disagree.


User tries to uninstall a program, for instance - "xarchiver"


Why? What is the use-case for a naive user to remove that, apart from 
coming up with scenarios to troll debian-user? For an experienced user 
with esoteric requirements the solution is trivial: don't use task 
packages if you want an artisanal hand-crafted install.

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Reco]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 01:54:17PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 04:39:56PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > No, I got you first time. Rather it's my response deviated elsewhere.
> > 
> > I see nothing in those three packages that would qualify as "xyzzy".
> > Alternatives? No. Mime types registration? No.
> > About the only common thing about all three packages is that they are
> > GUI archivers.
> > I do not question a choice of these three archivers as "lxqt"
> > dependency. What I do question is the kind of dependency itself.
> 
> I don't agree that responding to a troll will lead to a beneficial outcome.

You're entitled to your option, of course.
Still, there were some valid points in that e-mail.


> In this case, unless you're specifically trying to remove all of these
> specific dependencies (for no apparent reason) *it simply doesn't
> matter*.

And as I wrote in another part of this thread:

User tries to uninstall a program, for instance - "xarchiver", and user
has "lxqt" metapackage installed. User sees that apt tries to install
another dependency of "lxqt" along with removing the xarchiver.
Or, user has "lxde" metapackage installed. User tries to remove
"xarchiver", which removes "lxde" by dependency, which removes all of
LXDE as a result.


Disregarding "gnome" metapackage, which of the cases seems sane to you?
Or the end user?

Reco

Re: Dependencies et al

[Reco]

Hi.

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 06:34:20PM +0200, Linux-Fan wrote:
> Citing from that:
> | 6.7.10. Best practices for meta-packages
> | A meta-package is a mostly empty package that makes it easy to install a
> | coherent set of packages that can evolve over time. It achieves this by
> | depending on all the packages of the set. Thanks to the power of APT, the
> | meta-package maintainer can adjust the dependencies and the user's system
> | will automatically get the supplementary packages. The dropped packages
> | that were automatically installed will be also be marked as removal
> | candidates (and are even automatically removed by aptitude).
> | gnome and linux-image-amd64 are two examples of meta-packages [...]
> 
> If I understand it correctly, meta-packages use Depends because this allows
> packages like the kernel meta-package to function correctly: Changing a
> Depends to a newer kernel version will cause older kernels to automatically
> be uninstalled.

It could work this way, but currently it does not in this specific case.
See /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01autoremove* .
Current behaviour is "we do not autoremove the current kernel and the
one that's installed before". Sane enough, if you ask me.


> From my point of view, this clearly explains why the kernel meta-package
> should make use of Depends fields, but for Desktop Environments, the
> advantage of having a Depends is less clear to me:
> 
> On the one hand, it is an advantage that just removing the Desktop
> Environment package will uninstall all related programs because this allows
> trying them out and uninstalling them afterwards without leaving many
> programs installed.

It's an improvement over the current behaviour IMO.

User tries to uninstall a program, for instance - "xarchiver", and user
has "lxqt" metapackage installed. User sees that apt tries to install
another dependency of "lxqt" along with removing the xarchiver.
Or, user has "lxde" metapackage installed. User tries to remove
"xarchiver", which removes "lxde" by dependency, which removes all of
LXDE as a result.

In the former case user has to guess the metapackage which forces such
replacement. In the latter case user is scared of the dependencies
(because they remove half of the "system").


> On the other hand, the case of a user wanting to install
> a desktop environment but "without this and that" is not possible with the
> current design of meta-packages.

Why, it's possible. But user cannot use metapackages in such case, and
picking the needed packages one by one is tedious at best.
Which beats the primary purpose of metapackages.


> I can think of another good reason for having Depends: Ease of support.
...
> Thinking of a case where everything is just Recommends, it would be
> possible that dependency problems (however they occurred in the first place)

A catch here is that Recommends are treated as Depends in a default
Debian installation. A user can disable Recommends installation, but
it's discouraged. See last month discussion on this at this list, for instance.

So, for the default apt settings, there is no visible difference between
Depends metapackage and Recommends metapackage.

The real fun starts then the user discovers that APT::Install-Recommends
setting.

Reco

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Brian]

On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 10:56:30 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 16:03:21 (+0300), Reco wrote:

[...]

> > Please show a e-mail from the list subscriber that does not have
> > aforementioned attribute, then we'll have something to talk about.
> 
> Dead easy. Just configure your email system so that the envelope-from
> does not match your subscribed address. All my list postings lacked
> LDOSUBSCRIBER until April last year for that reason. Judging by one
> of the threads I contributed to at that time, I expect that this is
> when I changed my domain's name from nothing to "corp", and stopped
> exim from nagging me about my FQDN.

That seems good to me (and Reco agrees). Problem: my envelope From
does not match my subscribed address, and is not intended to.

I am still wondering what use it is to "check for the existence of
that LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before*
replying to e-mail". How does it affect the actions one takes? Or
is it just another facet of cargo cult?

-- 
Brian.

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Michael Stone]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 04:39:56PM +0300, Reco wrote:

No, I got you first time. Rather it's my response deviated elsewhere.

I see nothing in those three packages that would qualify as "xyzzy".
Alternatives? No. Mime types registration? No.
About the only common thing about all three packages is that they are
GUI archivers.
I do not question a choice of these three archivers as "lxqt"
dependency. What I do question is the kind of dependency itself.


I don't agree that responding to a troll will lead to a beneficial 
outcome. In this case, unless you're specifically trying to remove all 
of these specific dependencies (for no apparent reason) *it simply 
doesn't matter*. Saying, "there was a troll post which shows that this 
is an issue" just isn't compelling. Are there any real users with valid 
use cases for which this as an issue? If not, why encourage another 
dozen messages about it?

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Reco]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 10:56:30AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 16:03:21 (+0300), Reco wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 01:32:59PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 14:59:31 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 12:50:28PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > > > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 14:11:15 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 11:39:05AM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > > > > > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 11:28:03 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > PS Just a friendly reminder. Please check for the existence of 
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before* 
> > > > > > > > replying to
> > > > > > > > e-mail.  Unless, of course, you intention is *not* to reply to 
> > > > > > > > OP but
> > > > > > > > have your reply visible to the list.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The non-existence of LDOSUBSCRIBER in a mails's headers says 
> > > > > > > nothing
> > > > > > > definite about whether the poster is subscribed to the list or 
> > > > > > > reads
> > > > > > > list mails.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > You'll excuse me if I take your suggestion with a grain of salt.
> > > > > > Just on a basis of your past statements about SMTP protocol.
> > > > > 
> > > > > What does the lack of LDOSUBSCRIBER tell us?
> > > > 
> > > > Clearly there are several people that are using a...@cityscape.co.uk 
> > > > e-mail.
> > > > Please share the answer to this question once all of you reach some 
> > > > conclusion.
> > > 
> > > Your theorising is interesting and doesn't really answer the question.
> > 
> > Because if you make a certain statement, the burden of proof lies on you.
> > Now that you have answered own question,
> > 
> > 
> > > That address is not subscribed to the list and plays no part in routeing
> > > mails to or from the list.
> > 
> > Yet e-mails with that address at From: do have X-Spam-Status: 
> > LDOSUBSCRIBER. 
> > Whenever list e-mail is delivered at another e-mail is hardly relevant.
> > 
> > Please show a e-mail from the list subscriber that does not have
> > aforementioned attribute, then we'll have something to talk about.
> 
> Dead easy. Just configure your email system so that the envelope-from
> does not match your subscribed address. All my list postings lacked
> LDOSUBSCRIBER until April last year for that reason. Judging by one
> of the threads I contributed to at that time, I expect that this is
> when I changed my domain's name from nothing to "corp", and stopped
> exim from nagging me about my FQDN.

Ok, that can work, I appreciate the explanation.

Now, the hard part. Show me a way *not* to have LDOSUBSCRIBER, and have
both Return-Path and From to be the same *and* to be subscribed to the
list. Bonus point is awarded for From to be from @gmail.com, another one
if e-mail is sent by Google MTA, with the valid DKIM.

Previous sentences refer to OP's e-mail, just in case.

Reco

Re: Dependencies et al

[Linux-Fan]

John Hasler writes:


Reco writes:
> The parent thread shows that at least some of the users are
> confused by metapackages.

I think that most users are totally ignorant of the nature or even the
existence of metapackages.  As far as they are concerned the Lxqt
package *is* Lxqt and there is no way to get Lxqt other than to install
that package.  I don't see any effective way to explain it to them,
either.

It's not clear to me why metapackages don't make more use of Recommends,
though.  I understand that DE users expect a DE to provide an archiver,
but why does Lxqt *require* one?  Isn't installation of Recommends still
turned on by default?  Perhaps there's a need for "Weak-Depends" such
that Weak-Depends will always be installed but can be removed with no
more than a warning?  This would be used whenever the maintainer cannot
imagine why anyone would want to install package A and not package B,
but A doesn't absolutely require B.  All or almost all of the
dependencies in metapackages would then be weak.


I had wondered about the very same thing for multiple times already, but
this clear explanation above (thank you very much, John) has given me a good
opportunity to search the documentation for why meta-packages use Depends
instead of recommends. The best explanation I found so far is this:

https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/ch06.en.html#bpp-meta

Citing from that:
| 6.7.10. Best practices for meta-packages
| A meta-package is a mostly empty package that makes it easy to install a
| coherent set of packages that can evolve over time. It achieves this by
| depending on all the packages of the set. Thanks to the power of APT, the
| meta-package maintainer can adjust the dependencies and the user's system
| will automatically get the supplementary packages. The dropped packages
| that were automatically installed will be also be marked as removal
| candidates (and are even automatically removed by aptitude).
| gnome and linux-image-amd64 are two examples of meta-packages [...]

If I understand it correctly, meta-packages use Depends because this allows
packages like the kernel meta-package to function correctly: Changing a
Depends to a newer kernel version will cause older kernels to automatically
be uninstalled.

From my point of view, this clearly explains why the kernel meta-package
should make use of Depends fields, but for Desktop Environments, the
advantage of having a Depends is less clear to me:

On the one hand, it is an advantage that just removing the Desktop
Environment package will uninstall all related programs because this allows
trying them out and uninstalling them afterwards without leaving many
programs installed. On the other hand, the case of a user wanting to install
a desktop environment but "without this and that" is not possible with the
current design of meta-packages. Also, while I can generally think of cases
where names of packages that constitute a Desktop Environment change, from
a users point of view I would prefer not to propagate that change to
existing users, because they might be used to and happy with the previous
set of programs.

I can think of another good reason for having Depends: Ease of support.
Suppose there is someone asking for a complete Desktop Environment. As of
now, one just installs the meta-package. If it is already installed, one can
be pretty sure that all necessary programs are already on the system (they
might need to be activated by choosing a session in a display manager or
such). Thinking of a case where everything is just Recommends, it would be
possible that dependency problems (however they occurred in the first place)
cause a lot of the Desktop Environment to be missing but the meta-package
would still be installed leaving a "defective" (in terms of expected
programs to be available) installation without clear indication of the
why... I am, however, not sure if this problem is actually specific to
meta-packages but affects the whole system of Recommends?

YMMV
Linux-Fan

Re: Dependencies et al

[John Hasler]

Reco writes:
> The parent thread shows that at least some of the users are
> confused by metapackages.

I think that most users are totally ignorant of the nature or even the
existence of metapackages.  As far as they are concerned the Lxqt
package *is* Lxqt and there is no way to get Lxqt other than to install
that package.  I don't see any effective way to explain it to them,
either.

It's not clear to me why metapackages don't make more use of Recommends,
though.  I understand that DE users expect a DE to provide an archiver,
but why does Lxqt *require* one?  Isn't installation of Recommends still
turned on by default?  Perhaps there's a need for "Weak-Depends" such
that Weak-Depends will always be installed but can be removed with no
more than a warning?  This would be used whenever the maintainer cannot
imagine why anyone would want to install package A and not package B,
but A doesn't absolutely require B.  All or almost all of the
dependencies in metapackages would then be weak.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[David Wright]

On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 16:03:21 (+0300), Reco wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 01:32:59PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 14:59:31 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 12:50:28PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 14:11:15 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 11:39:05AM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > > > > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 11:28:03 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > PS Just a friendly reminder. Please check for the existence of 
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before* 
> > > > > > > replying to
> > > > > > > e-mail.  Unless, of course, you intention is *not* to reply to OP 
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > have your reply visible to the list.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The non-existence of LDOSUBSCRIBER in a mails's headers says nothing
> > > > > > definite about whether the poster is subscribed to the list or reads
> > > > > > list mails.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You'll excuse me if I take your suggestion with a grain of salt.
> > > > > Just on a basis of your past statements about SMTP protocol.
> > > > 
> > > > What does the lack of LDOSUBSCRIBER tell us?
> > > 
> > > Clearly there are several people that are using a...@cityscape.co.uk 
> > > e-mail.
> > > Please share the answer to this question once all of you reach some 
> > > conclusion.
> > 
> > Your theorising is interesting and doesn't really answer the question.
> 
> Because if you make a certain statement, the burden of proof lies on you.
> Now that you have answered own question,
> 
> 
> > That address is not subscribed to the list and plays no part in routeing
> > mails to or from the list.
> 
> Yet e-mails with that address at From: do have X-Spam-Status: LDOSUBSCRIBER. 
> Whenever list e-mail is delivered at another e-mail is hardly relevant.
> 
> Please show a e-mail from the list subscriber that does not have
> aforementioned attribute, then we'll have something to talk about.

Dead easy. Just configure your email system so that the envelope-from
does not match your subscribed address. All my list postings lacked
LDOSUBSCRIBER until April last year for that reason. Judging by one
of the threads I contributed to at that time, I expect that this is
when I changed my domain's name from nothing to "corp", and stopped
exim from nagging me about my FQDN.

AIUI .corp became a TLD pariah earlier that year, having been
suggested for use, for example, in RFC 6762. I use it merely because
you seem to get fewest "false hits" when you  #  grep -r corp /etc
as compared with the alternatives, home and mail.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/12/icann_corp_home_mail_gtlds/

Cheers,
David.

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Dan Purgert]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Reco wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 01:08:04PM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> Reco wrote:
 I don't think anything needs to be done here -- the whole idea of
 (meta)packages is that you give up some choice for the benefits of not
 having to deal with dependency hell.  
>>>
>>> I disagree. The parent thread shows that at least some of the users are
>>> confused by metapackages.
>> 
>> So then the education needs to be fixed, not the material.  I mean, at
>> one point in our lives, we were all confused by what we'd consider
>> "simple mathematics" nowadays.
>
> And we both know it does not work this way, although it should.
> One could write thousand words in the documentation, explaining
> everything in the finest detail possible. But if no one is reading the
> documentation - is there a meaning in all this work?
>
> Hence my suggestion. Users are confused already, and it won't get
> better. I have no problem filling a wishlist bugreport, but I like to
> estimate the possible users' reaction.

The ultimate underlying problem is that in this case, the user didn't
like that the package wanted to force a specific set of programs on the
system.

Now, yes, there are what sound like technical inconsistencies in the
packages (i.e. they're not actually "required" by anything other than
this metapackage itself); although it seems to be that the general user
expectation would be that a DE supplies some form of archive handling
capabilities.

Whether or not that's extraneous to the user's preferred software is
another question entirely -- I mean, I have cthulhu-knows how many
different programs installed simply from core-utils.  I probably touch
but a fraction of them, and yet they're still here.  Not to mention all
the "extras" that come along with say groff, or LaTeX.

>> [...]
>> I think I worded the response here poorly.
>> ...
>> engrampa. Of those, I assume that all three provide the necessary
>> "provides xyzzy" information (e.g. how installing postfix or exim
>> "provides" /usr/sbin/sendmail) to allow generic graphical tools to hook
>> ...
>
> No, I got you first time. Rather it's my response deviated elsewhere.
>
> I see nothing in those three packages that would qualify as "xyzzy".
> Alternatives? No. Mime types registration? No.

Certainly shows my limited understanding of how it all fits together,
that's for sure :).

> About the only common thing about all three packages is that they are
> GUI archivers.
> I do not question a choice of these three archivers as "lxqt"
> dependency. What I do question is the kind of dependency itself.

I might've deleted it in editing somewhere, I was operating under the
assumption that "a gui archiver" is a required component of a "complete
DE" (for some value of "complete", anyway).

>
>
>> In either event, I think one of the mails mentioned wanting to use
>> peaZip, which isn't even available in the repos, so it doesn't matter
>> anyway; as APT would never be able to do dependency resolution.
>
> Why, apt certainly can do it. It's just requires the user to package
> PeaZip first ☺

He's having a hard enough time with packages, that're already available
in the repos.  This is just mean :D

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-- 
|_|O|_| 
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Brian]

On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 16:03:21 +0300, Reco wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 01:32:59PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 14:59:31 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > 
> > > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 12:50:28PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 14:11:15 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 11:39:05AM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > > > > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 11:28:03 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > PS Just a friendly reminder. Please check for the existence of 
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before* 
> > > > > > > replying to
> > > > > > > e-mail.  Unless, of course, you intention is *not* to reply to OP 
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > have your reply visible to the list.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The non-existence of LDOSUBSCRIBER in a mails's headers says nothing
> > > > > > definite about whether the poster is subscribed to the list or reads
> > > > > > list mails.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You'll excuse me if I take your suggestion with a grain of salt.
> > > > > Just on a basis of your past statements about SMTP protocol.
> > > > 
> > > > What does the lack of LDOSUBSCRIBER tell us?
> > > 
> > > Clearly there are several people that are using a...@cityscape.co.uk 
> > > e-mail.
> > > Please share the answer to this question once all of you reach some 
> > > conclusion.
> > 
> > Your theorising is interesting and doesn't really answer the question.
> 
> Because if you make a certain statement, the burden of proof lies on you.
> Now that you have answered own question,

The statement was about the lack of LDOSUBSCRIBER, not its presence.
As Thomas says - a user could be subscribed with another address.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Reco]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 01:08:04PM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> Reco wrote:
> > Hi.
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 11:56:33AM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> > 3) Synaptic did not provide a user a meaningful choice.
> >> > [...]
> >> > I'm not saying that Synaptic should be transformed to aptitude (which is
> >> > famous for its multi-choice resolver), we have one aptitude already,
> >> > please leave it this way. But showing the *reason* of such replacement,
> >> > i.e. "lxqt package demands that you will have some archiver installed"
> >> > would be a definite step in right direction.
> >> 
> >> I don't think anything needs to be done here -- the whole idea of
> >> (meta)packages is that you give up some choice for the benefits of not
> >> having to deal with dependency hell.  
> >
> > I disagree. The parent thread shows that at least some of the users are
> > confused by metapackages.
> 
> So then the education needs to be fixed, not the material.  I mean, at
> one point in our lives, we were all confused by what we'd consider
> "simple mathematics" nowadays.

And we both know it does not work this way, although it should.
One could write thousand words in the documentation, explaining
everything in the finest detail possible. But if no one is reading the
documentation - is there a meaning in all this work?

Hence my suggestion. Users are confused already, and it won't get
better. I have no problem filling a wishlist bugreport, but I like to
estimate the possible users' reaction.


> >> > 4) Metapackages tend to have restrictive dependencies.
> >> >
> > [...]
> >> According to the "similar packages" lists of the three options in the
> >> Bullseye package listings, it looks like there are a handful of other
> >> alternatives that the package maintainer "might" have chosen as
> >> alternates / in addition to the three that he did.  But, then I don't
> >> know enough about those packages (e.g. file-roller, or p7zip) to say
> >> whether they'd actually work -- that is, whether they provide the
> >> ability for the other "default" applications to hook into / be compiled
> >> against.
> >
> > That's somewhat different problem. Certain applications (terminal
> > emulators, browsers to name a few) provide a virtual packages such as
> > x-terminal-emulator or x-www-browser to save the trouble of listing all
> > the possible alternatives in a package dependencies. Reduces the amount
> > of bugs if some package leaves the archive too.
> > But I see no virtual package that means "I'm an archive utility with
> > GUI".
> 
> I think I worded the response here poorly.
> ...
> engrampa. Of those, I assume that all three provide the necessary
> "provides xyzzy" information (e.g. how installing postfix or exim
> "provides" /usr/sbin/sendmail) to allow generic graphical tools to hook
> ...

No, I got you first time. Rather it's my response deviated elsewhere.

I see nothing in those three packages that would qualify as "xyzzy".
Alternatives? No. Mime types registration? No.
About the only common thing about all three packages is that they are
GUI archivers.
I do not question a choice of these three archivers as "lxqt"
dependency. What I do question is the kind of dependency itself.


> In either event, I think one of the mails mentioned wanting to use
> peaZip, which isn't even available in the repos, so it doesn't matter
> anyway; as APT would never be able to do dependency resolution.

Why, apt certainly can do it. It's just requires the user to package
PeaZip first ☺

Reco

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Dan Purgert]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Reco wrote:
>   Hi.
>
> On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 11:56:33AM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> > 3) Synaptic did not provide a user a meaningful choice.
>> > [...]
>> > I'm not saying that Synaptic should be transformed to aptitude (which is
>> > famous for its multi-choice resolver), we have one aptitude already,
>> > please leave it this way. But showing the *reason* of such replacement,
>> > i.e. "lxqt package demands that you will have some archiver installed"
>> > would be a definite step in right direction.
>> 
>> I don't think anything needs to be done here -- the whole idea of
>> (meta)packages is that you give up some choice for the benefits of not
>> having to deal with dependency hell.  
>
> I disagree. The parent thread shows that at least some of the users are
> confused by metapackages.

So then the education needs to be fixed, not the material.  I mean, at
one point in our lives, we were all confused by what we'd consider
"simple mathematics" nowadays.

>
>
>> I'm not sure what "lxqt" needs across the board, but I imagine that
>> since it wants one or the other archive program, there are one or more
>> other packages built against them.
>
> Does not seem to be the case. One of "lxqt"'s dependencies, "ark" is a
> KDE archive utility. Or so is says in the description.
> Another one, "enrgampa", comes from MATE.
> "lxqt" is a typical metapackage, listing some totally unrelated programs
> with dependencies that could fit a certain role, and said programs do
> not come with LXQT.

Fair enough.

>
>
>> > 4) Metapackages tend to have restrictive dependencies.
>> >
> [...]
>> According to the "similar packages" lists of the three options in the
>> Bullseye package listings, it looks like there are a handful of other
>> alternatives that the package maintainer "might" have chosen as
>> alternates / in addition to the three that he did.  But, then I don't
>> know enough about those packages (e.g. file-roller, or p7zip) to say
>> whether they'd actually work -- that is, whether they provide the
>> ability for the other "default" applications to hook into / be compiled
>> against.
>
> That's somewhat different problem. Certain applications (terminal
> emulators, browsers to name a few) provide a virtual packages such as
> x-terminal-emulator or x-www-browser to save the trouble of listing all
> the possible alternatives in a package dependencies. Reduces the amount
> of bugs if some package leaves the archive too.
> But I see no virtual package that means "I'm an archive utility with
> GUI".

I think I worded the response here poorly.  

As I understand things - "lxqt" requires one of three options for an "X
based compression tool" (presumably as a requirement of a "complete(tm)
DE" or similar line of thought).  The package maintainer has determined
that there are three that fit the bill -> xarchiver(default), ark, or
engrampa. Of those, I assume that all three provide the necessary
"provides xyzzy" information (e.g. how installing postfix or exim
"provides" /usr/sbin/sendmail) to allow generic graphical tools to hook
against them without needing to have compile-time options set.

Therefore, we end up with a few things we can take away:

  1. Three options is all the package maintainer can keep track of (in
  addition to everything else).
  2. Three options was deemed "enough" by the package maintainer.
  3. The other options (e.g. pz7ip) do not provide the aforementioned 
  "hooks" required by something else.
  4. The other options (e.g. p7zip) are actually part of non-free and 
  I missed that somewhere :)

In either event, I think one of the mails mentioned wanting to use
peaZip, which isn't even available in the repos, so it doesn't matter
anyway; as APT would never be able to do dependency resolution.


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-- 
|_|O|_| 
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Reco]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 01:32:59PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 14:59:31 +0300, Reco wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 12:50:28PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 14:11:15 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 11:39:05AM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > > > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 11:28:03 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > [...]
> > > > > 
> > > > > > PS Just a friendly reminder. Please check for the existence of that
> > > > > > LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before* 
> > > > > > replying to
> > > > > > e-mail.  Unless, of course, you intention is *not* to reply to OP 
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > have your reply visible to the list.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The non-existence of LDOSUBSCRIBER in a mails's headers says nothing
> > > > > definite about whether the poster is subscribed to the list or reads
> > > > > list mails.
> > > > 
> > > > You'll excuse me if I take your suggestion with a grain of salt.
> > > > Just on a basis of your past statements about SMTP protocol.
> > > 
> > > What does the lack of LDOSUBSCRIBER tell us?
> > 
> > Clearly there are several people that are using a...@cityscape.co.uk e-mail.
> > Please share the answer to this question once all of you reach some 
> > conclusion.
> 
> Your theorising is interesting and doesn't really answer the question.

Because if you make a certain statement, the burden of proof lies on you.
Now that you have answered own question,


> That address is not subscribed to the list and plays no part in routeing
> mails to or from the list.

Yet e-mails with that address at From: do have X-Spam-Status: LDOSUBSCRIBER. 
Whenever list e-mail is delivered at another e-mail is hardly relevant.

Please show a e-mail from the list subscriber that does not have
aforementioned attribute, then we'll have something to talk about.

Reco

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Curt]

On 2019-10-07, Reco  wrote:
>
> 1) Call me old-fashioned, but posters' personalities should not matter
> here, at this list.

I don't see what is old-fashioned about your opinion here. I would think
it were the gentilities of polite discourse that have become outmoded
(as demonstrated finely by the OP), and your view that good breeding is
somehow immaterial the new-fangled thing.

> Whenever a OP is a teen, old person, dog or AI (there are unconfirmed
> sightings of last two posting here ;) is hardly relevant to the problem.
> The language OP is using could definitely use some improvement indeed,
> but discussing OP's personality just because of that is as low as it
> gets.

A person's nature when confronting a problem is entirely relevant to its
solution. A puerile nature blames the stone, and eventually the landscape
architects, when stubbing his toe in the rock garden.

If your objective wisdom is to assert that this specific stone has no
legitimate place in this particular garden and should be removed, well,
that may be true. File the appropriate wish-list bug report with the
architects, who have strived to create an ensemble effect and might not
wish to go without certain elements.

But as the stone in question figures on the map handed out to everyone
before entry, it seems to me it could've been avoided one way or
another by any astute visitor.

-- 
"There are no foreign lands. It is the traveler only who is foreign."
-- Robert Louis Stevenson

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Brian]

On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 14:59:31 +0300, Reco wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 12:50:28PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 14:11:15 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > 
> > > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 11:39:05AM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 11:28:03 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > [...]
> > > > 
> > > > > PS Just a friendly reminder. Please check for the existence of that
> > > > > LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before* replying 
> > > > > to
> > > > > e-mail.  Unless, of course, you intention is *not* to reply to OP but
> > > > > have your reply visible to the list.
> > > > 
> > > > The non-existence of LDOSUBSCRIBER in a mails's headers says nothing
> > > > definite about whether the poster is subscribed to the list or reads
> > > > list mails.
> > > 
> > > You'll excuse me if I take your suggestion with a grain of salt.
> > > Just on a basis of your past statements about SMTP protocol.
> > 
> > What does the lack of LDOSUBSCRIBER tell us?
> 
> Clearly there are several people that are using a...@cityscape.co.uk e-mail.
> Please share the answer to this question once all of you reach some 
> conclusion.

Your theorising is interesting and doesn't really answer the question.
That address is not subscribed to the list and plays no part in routeing
mails to or from the list.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Reco]

Hi.

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 11:56:33AM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
> > 3) Synaptic did not provide a user a meaningful choice.
> > [...]
> > I'm not saying that Synaptic should be transformed to aptitude (which is
> > famous for its multi-choice resolver), we have one aptitude already,
> > please leave it this way. But showing the *reason* of such replacement,
> > i.e. "lxqt package demands that you will have some archiver installed"
> > would be a definite step in right direction.
> 
> I don't think anything needs to be done here -- the whole idea of
> (meta)packages is that you give up some choice for the benefits of not
> having to deal with dependency hell.  

I disagree. The parent thread shows that at least some of the users are
confused by metapackages.


> I'm not sure what "lxqt" needs across the board, but I imagine that
> since it wants one or the other archive program, there are one or more
> other packages built against them.

Does not seem to be the case. One of "lxqt"'s dependencies, "ark" is a
KDE archive utility. Or so is says in the description.
Another one, "enrgampa", comes from MATE.
"lxqt" is a typical metapackage, listing some totally unrelated programs
with dependencies that could fit a certain role, and said programs do
not come with LXQT.


> > 4) Metapackages tend to have restrictive dependencies.
> >
> > The whole fuss is about the contents of the Depends field of "lxqt".
> > Last, but not least - is there a meaningful reason to use Depends
> > instead of Recommends in metapackages such as "lxqt"? Barring the
> > "gnome" package, I know the answer for it.
> 
> Does it really matter though?
> I mean, there's a basic set of "X-core-utils" that I think can be
> agreed on as required for a full-featured DE.  One of those being
> something that can handle archives.

In the case of the original "problem" - yes it does.
Installing a metapackage with Recommends only would still pull the same
dependencies (by default, that is), but removing one of said
dependencies would not force another one on a user.
Of course it leaves the user without a program to handle archives
(from user's POV), but it may be the desired outcome.

This way flexibility is gained, nothing is lost, user is saved from the
confusion. Am I missing something?


> According to the "similar packages" lists of the three options in the
> Bullseye package listings, it looks like there are a handful of other
> alternatives that the package maintainer "might" have chosen as
> alternates / in addition to the three that he did.  But, then I don't
> know enough about those packages (e.g. file-roller, or p7zip) to say
> whether they'd actually work -- that is, whether they provide the
> ability for the other "default" applications to hook into / be compiled
> against.

That's somewhat different problem. Certain applications (terminal
emulators, browsers to name a few) provide a virtual packages such as
x-terminal-emulator or x-www-browser to save the trouble of listing all
the possible alternatives in a package dependencies. Reduces the amount
of bugs if some package leaves the archive too.
But I see no virtual package that means "I'm an archive utility with
GUI".

Reco

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Brian]

On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 13:53:43 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Reco wrote:

[...]
 
> Brian wrote:
> > The non-existence of LDOSUBSCRIBER in a mails's headers says nothing
> > definite about whether the poster is subscribed to the list or reads
> > list mails.
> 
> To my best knowledge, "X-Spam-Status: ... tests=...,LDOSUBSCRIBER,..."
> says that the "From:" address of the mail is subscribed.
> If this sign is missing, the person-like entity which wrote the mail
> could still be subscribed by another address or other means.

Are you sure it is the From: and not the envelope From? My From: is
not subscribed.
 
> Nevertheless, if i have no other indication then i normally add a "Cc:"
> to the thread starter if i do not see LDOSUBSCRIBER among the spam tests.

On the basis, one supposes, that the situation is unclear and you wish
the poster to know there is a reply to her post.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Dan Purgert]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Reco wrote:
>   Hello, list.
>
> It may seem a thread hijacking (and may be it is), but I feel that the
> discussion of OP's problem has taken a wrong turn. Consider this a my
> attempt to put in on a right track ☺.
>
> So I've been reading this thread, and it got me thinking. I know, it's a
> somewhat strange confession to make (☺), but anyway:
> [...]
> 3) Synaptic did not provide a user a meaningful choice.
> [...]
> I'm not saying that Synaptic should be transformed to aptitude (which is
> famous for its multi-choice resolver), we have one aptitude already,
> please leave it this way. But showing the *reason* of such replacement,
> i.e. "lxqt package demands that you will have some archiver installed"
> would be a definite step in right direction.

I don't think anything needs to be done here -- the whole idea of
(meta)packages is that you give up some choice for the benefits of not
having to deal with dependency hell.  

I'm not sure what "lxqt" needs across the board, but I imagine that
since it wants one or the other archive program, there are one or more
other packages built against them.  The only way out of that then would
be to compile the affected programs from source, so that they can call
his preferred archive solution (assuming said solution can be hooked
into by the affected programs).

>
>
> 4) Metapackages tend to have restrictive dependencies.
>
> The whole fuss is about the contents of the Depends field of "lxqt".
> Last, but not least - is there a meaningful reason to use Depends
> instead of Recommends in metapackages such as "lxqt"? Barring the
> "gnome" package, I know the answer for it.

Does it really matter though?  I mean, there's a basic set of
"X-core-utils" that I think can be agreed on as required for a
full-featured DE.  One of those being something that can handle
archives.

According to the "similar packages" lists of the three options in the
Bullseye package listings, it looks like there are a handful of other
alternatives that the package maintainer "might" have chosen as
alternates / in addition to the three that he did.  But, then I don't
know enough about those packages (e.g. file-roller, or p7zip) to say
whether they'd actually work -- that is, whether they provide the
ability for the other "default" applications to hook into / be compiled
against.



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|_|O|_| 
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Reco]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 12:50:28PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 14:11:15 +0300, Reco wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 11:39:05AM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 11:28:03 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > 
> > > [...]
> > > 
> > > > PS Just a friendly reminder. Please check for the existence of that
> > > > LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before* replying to
> > > > e-mail.  Unless, of course, you intention is *not* to reply to OP but
> > > > have your reply visible to the list.
> > > 
> > > The non-existence of LDOSUBSCRIBER in a mails's headers says nothing
> > > definite about whether the poster is subscribed to the list or reads
> > > list mails.
> > 
> > You'll excuse me if I take your suggestion with a grain of salt.
> > Just on a basis of your past statements about SMTP protocol.
> 
> What does the lack of LDOSUBSCRIBER tell us?

Clearly there are several people that are using a...@cityscape.co.uk e-mail.
Please share the answer to this question once all of you reach some conclusion.

Reco

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Reco wrote:
> > 1) Call me old-fashioned, but posters' personalities should not matter
> > here, at this list. [...]
> > The language OP is using could definitely use some improvement indeed,

It would serve the general issue of constructive discussion.


> > discussing OP's personality just because of that is as low as it gets.

I made up my own theories but refrained from posting them, although i am
now sad about the consequential waste of bad pun and fake commiseration.


> > PS Just a friendly reminder. Please check for the existence of that
> > LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before* replying to
> > e-mail.

Brian wrote:
> The non-existence of LDOSUBSCRIBER in a mails's headers says nothing
> definite about whether the poster is subscribed to the list or reads
> list mails.

To my best knowledge, "X-Spam-Status: ... tests=...,LDOSUBSCRIBER,..."
says that the "From:" address of the mail is subscribed.
If this sign is missing, the person-like entity which wrote the mail
could still be subscribed by another address or other means.

Nevertheless, if i have no other indication then i normally add a "Cc:"
to the thread starter if i do not see LDOSUBSCRIBER among the spam tests.

> > Unless, of course, you intention is *not* to reply to OP but
> > have your reply visible to the list.

... which in this case is indeed my intention because i have nothing
useful to say about the OP's original problem.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Brian]

On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 14:11:15 +0300, Reco wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 11:39:05AM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 11:28:03 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > PS Just a friendly reminder. Please check for the existence of that
> > > LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before* replying to
> > > e-mail.  Unless, of course, you intention is *not* to reply to OP but
> > > have your reply visible to the list.
> > 
> > The non-existence of LDOSUBSCRIBER in a mails's headers says nothing
> > definite about whether the poster is subscribed to the list or reads
> > list mails.
> 
> You'll excuse me if I take your suggestion with a grain of salt.
> Just on a basis of your past statements about SMTP protocol.

What does the lack of LDOSUBSCRIBER tell us?

-- 
Brian.

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Reco]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 11:39:05AM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 11:28:03 +0300, Reco wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > PS Just a friendly reminder. Please check for the existence of that
> > LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before* replying to
> > e-mail.  Unless, of course, you intention is *not* to reply to OP but
> > have your reply visible to the list.
> 
> The non-existence of LDOSUBSCRIBER in a mails's headers says nothing
> definite about whether the poster is subscribed to the list or reads
> list mails.

You'll excuse me if I take your suggestion with a grain of salt.
Just on a basis of your past statements about SMTP protocol.

Reco

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Brian]

On Mon 07 Oct 2019 at 11:28:03 +0300, Reco wrote:

[...]

> PS Just a friendly reminder. Please check for the existence of that
> LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before* replying to
> e-mail.  Unless, of course, you intention is *not* to reply to OP but
> have your reply visible to the list.

The non-existence of LDOSUBSCRIBER in a mails's headers says nothing
definite about whether the poster is subscribed to the list or reads
list mails.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[tomas]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 11:28:03AM +0300, Reco wrote:
>   Hello, list.
> 
> It may seem a thread hijacking (and may be it is) [...]

I don't feel so. Thanks for this post.

Cheers
-- t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Dependencies et al (was: Default Debian install harassed me)

[Reco]

Hello, list.

It may seem a thread hijacking (and may be it is), but I feel that the
discussion of OP's problem has taken a wrong turn. Consider this a my
attempt to put in on a right track ☺.

So I've been reading this thread, and it got me thinking. I know, it's a
somewhat strange confession to make (☺), but anyway:

1) Call me old-fashioned, but posters' personalities should not matter
here, at this list.

Whenever a OP is a teen, old person, dog or AI (there are unconfirmed
sightings of last two posting here ;) is hardly relevant to the problem.
The language OP is using could definitely use some improvement indeed,
but discussing OP's personality just because of that is as low as it
gets.


2) OP claims to use a "Default Debian install", yet LXQT was installed.

Terminology aside, last time I've checked, Debian offered GNOME as a
default Desktop Environment. Regardless of my personal opinion of this
Finely Designed DE™, maybe (just maybe) GNOME should be made more
visible to the end user of Debian?


3) Synaptic did not provide a user a meaningful choice.

I know how the dependencies work, so are most of the list participants
(seems that way, at least).
What's more important here, I tend to believe that I know why they were
invented, and (contrary to some options expressed in this thread) - why
they are still relevant in 21st century.

But what we are seeing here? User wants to uninstall a package, but
another package wants to be installed instead for no good reason (from
user's POV). Moreover, in this case that is one of the two possible
replacements (check "lxqt" dependencies), but the user is not informed
of that.
I'm not saying that Synaptic should be transformed to aptitude (which is
famous for its multi-choice resolver), we have one aptitude already,
please leave it this way. But showing the *reason* of such replacement,
i.e. "lxqt package demands that you will have some archiver installed"
would be a definite step in right direction.


4) Metapackages tend to have restrictive dependencies.

The whole fuss is about the contents of the Depends field of "lxqt".
Last, but not least - is there a meaningful reason to use Depends
instead of Recommends in metapackages such as "lxqt"? Barring the
"gnome" package, I know the answer for it.


Options, comments, criticism and even the OP's option are welcome.

Reco

PS Just a friendly reminder. Please check for the existence of that
LDOSUBSCRIBER value of X-Spam-Status e-mail header *before* replying to
e-mail.  Unless, of course, you intention is *not* to reply to OP but
have your reply visible to the list.

Re: dependencies problem to install lightworks on jessie

[Henning Follmann]

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 05:56:22PM -0400, e Lpe wrote:
> Ok, thanks for the lesson.
> I made a mistake. I apologize.
> I din't saw how as changed Debian distribution and community since 2002.
> It's so far...
> Forget this thread, or mail, call it as you want.
> I will found a solution by myself.
> 
> And thanks to people try to help.
> End off.
> 

No need to be too sensitive about this.
However, just install the dependencies (dev packages) your program
requires. The debian package system is stable and proven to not mess up. So
just install away with confidence. 

-H


-- 
Henning Follmann   | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com

Re: dependencies problem to install lightworks on jessie

[Lisi Reisz]

On Friday 28 October 2016 22:56:22 e Lpe wrote:
> Ok, thanks for the lesson.
> I made a mistake. I apologize.
> I din't saw how as changed Debian distribution and community since 2002.
> It's so far...
> Forget this thread, or mail, call it as you want.
> I will found a solution by myself.
>
> And thanks to people try to help.
> End off.

We still don't know what you are trying to do.  Brian told you a solution to 
what seems to be your problem.  Why not try it?  If your problem is what it 
seems to be this will solve it.

Lisi
>
> 2016-10-28 14:31 GMT-04:00 Greg Wooledge :
> > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 07:19:47PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > 4. There is a way to get your error mesaages in English but I have
> > >forgotten how. Someone will be along in a while to explain how it
> > >is done.
> >
> > If you're working from a command shell, you can do:
> >
> > export LC_ALL=C
> >
> > and then the rest of your commands should all produce output in the
> > "C" locale (traditional US English, ASCII characters only).
> >
> > If you're working with a GUI, then all bets are off.  You might be able
> > to restart the GUI application with the locale variables set differently,
> > but if it's something like a display manager invoked directly from
> > /sbin/init then it could become difficult.  Or, the GUI application may
> > have its own internal language selection.

Re: dependencies problem to install lightworks on jessie

[e Lpe]

Ok, thanks for the lesson.
I made a mistake. I apologize.
I din't saw how as changed Debian distribution and community since 2002.
It's so far...
Forget this thread, or mail, call it as you want.
I will found a solution by myself.

And thanks to people try to help.
End off.


2016-10-28 14:31 GMT-04:00 Greg Wooledge :

> On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 07:19:47PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > 4. There is a way to get your error mesaages in English but I have
> >forgotten how. Someone will be along in a while to explain how it
> >is done.
>
> If you're working from a command shell, you can do:
>
> export LC_ALL=C
>
> and then the rest of your commands should all produce output in the
> "C" locale (traditional US English, ASCII characters only).
>
> If you're working with a GUI, then all bets are off.  You might be able
> to restart the GUI application with the locale variables set differently,
> but if it's something like a display manager invoked directly from
> /sbin/init then it could become difficult.  Or, the GUI application may
> have its own internal language selection.
>
>

Re: dependencies problem to install lightworks on jessie

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 07:19:47PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> 4. There is a way to get your error mesaages in English but I have
>forgotten how. Someone will be along in a while to explain how it
>is done.

If you're working from a command shell, you can do:

export LC_ALL=C

and then the rest of your commands should all produce output in the
"C" locale (traditional US English, ASCII characters only).

If you're working with a GUI, then all bets are off.  You might be able
to restart the GUI application with the locale variables set differently,
but if it's something like a display manager invoked directly from
/sbin/init then it could become difficult.  Or, the GUI application may
have its own internal language selection.

Re: dependencies problem to install lightworks on jessie

[Brian]

I did not respond to your post because it seemed like too much trouble
to get information from you. Fortunately for you Lisi (bless her heart)
did not ignore it.

e Lpe, you are now going to get a lecture. Sit back and enjoy it. :)



On Fri 28 Oct 2016 at 13:10:18 -0400, e Lpe wrote:

> " What have you tried?"
> 
> nothing yet. The missings dependencies are here : http://dpaste.com/2BVN1S6
> I think i can dowload it from debian website and install tem with dpkg but
> I affraid to brake my system
> 
> 2016-10-28 10:53 GMT-04:00 Lisi Reisz :
> 
> > On Friday 28 October 2016 02:13:44 e Lpe wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > all is in the title.
> > > I can't install Lightworks on Jessie.
> > >
> > > What is the right way to install it ?
> >
> > What have you tried?

-

The lecture starts here.


1. In your first mail you said:

   > all is in the title.

   The title is for a brief description of the problem. *Never* rely on
   it (as you have done) to substitute for a good, clear expression of
   the issue. Like this:

  I downloaded www from  and tried to install www with
  'dpkg -i www'. But then I got yyy. Help!

   Of course, all of that may be incorrect. So you put in your own words.

2. Point 2 is that in the response to Lisi you gave a dpaste URL. The
   amount of information is so little it could easily be posted directly
   in your response. It makes people do something extra to help you.
   This could put them off responding. Don't use these paste thingies.
   Post everything here.

3. Here is a guessed solution to your problem. I hate guessing. Please
   post again with more detail if it does not fit what you want to do.

Install:

dpkg -i filename.deb

apt-get -f install

   This cannot break your system.

4. There is a way to get your error mesaages in English but I have
   forgotten how. Someone will be along in a while to explain how it
   is done.

-- 
Brian.

Re: dependencies problem to install lightworks on jessie

[e Lpe]

" What have you tried?"

nothing yet. The missings dependencies are here : http://dpaste.com/2BVN1S6
I think i can dowload it from debian website and install tem with dpkg but
I affraid to brake my system

2016-10-28 10:53 GMT-04:00 Lisi Reisz :

> On Friday 28 October 2016 02:13:44 e Lpe wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > all is in the title.
> > I can't install Lightworks on Jessie.
> >
> > What is the right way to install it ?
>
> What have you tried?
>
> Lisi
>
>

Re: dependencies problem to install lightworks on jessie

[Lisi Reisz]

On Friday 28 October 2016 02:13:44 e Lpe wrote:
> Hello,
>
> all is in the title.
> I can't install Lightworks on Jessie.
>
> What is the right way to install it ?

What have you tried?

Lisi

Re: dependencies woes with Debian MediaWiki package

[Simon Jolle sjolle]

On 03/24/2008 03:53 PM, Daniel Burrows wrote:
>   I apologize for taking so long to get back to you.

No Problem :-)

>   I asked whether you were running etch because the unstable/testing
> version of mediawiki doesn't have dependencies that would pull in the
> stuff you're talking about.  I've taken a brief look at the stable
> version, and I think I see what's happening.  You can probably install
> links or add --without-recommends to the command-line to get a saner
> install.

I actually did this, but have still a lot of dependencies:

[...]
0 packages upgraded, 71 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 227MB/230MB of archives. After unpacking 564MB will be used.


I will take the Debian way.

>   * Mozilla: iceape-browser gets installed because tetex-doc recommends
>  it.  tetex-doc is recommended by tetex-base, which is
>pulled in by tetex-bin.
> 
>This is the cause of most of your problems; if you install
>a text-mode browser like links, it will fulfill this
>dependency and iceape won't get installed.
> 
>   * Gnome/GTK+: pulled in by Mozilla, as far as I can tell.
> 
>   * X11: some of these are really necessary.  mediawiki-math needs latex
> and Ghostscript components, and these depend on X11 libraries
> because they manipulate X11 fonts and/or can connect to an X server.
> 
>   * Latex: for mediawiki-math.
> 
>   * Sound server: I think this is pulled in by Gnome/GTK+.
> 
>   * portmap: Pulled in by fam (part of Gnome)

thank you

>   Daniel

cheers Simon




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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: dependencies woes with Debian MediaWiki package

[Daniel Burrows]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 07:38:36PM +0100, Simon Jolle sjolle <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> was heard to say:
> I have here VDS with minimal Debian installation. Why Debian wish to
> install me Firefox, Gnome/GTK+ components, X11 components, Latex, Sound
> server, portmap, quite enough libraries etc.

  I apologize for taking so long to get back to you.

  I asked whether you were running etch because the unstable/testing
version of mediawiki doesn't have dependencies that would pull in the
stuff you're talking about.  I've taken a brief look at the stable
version, and I think I see what's happening.  You can probably install
links or add --without-recommends to the command-line to get a saner
install.

  * Mozilla: iceape-browser gets installed because tetex-doc recommends
 it.  tetex-doc is recommended by tetex-base, which is
 pulled in by tetex-bin.

 This is the cause of most of your problems; if you install
 a text-mode browser like links, it will fulfill this
 dependency and iceape won't get installed.

  * Gnome/GTK+: pulled in by Mozilla, as far as I can tell.

  * X11: some of these are really necessary.  mediawiki-math needs latex
and Ghostscript components, and these depend on X11 libraries
because they manipulate X11 fonts and/or can connect to an X server.

  * Latex: for mediawiki-math.

  * Sound server: I think this is pulled in by Gnome/GTK+.

  * portmap: Pulled in by fam (part of Gnome)

  Daniel


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Re: dependencies woes with Debian MediaWiki package

[Andrei Popescu]

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 09:45:29PM +0100, Simon Jolle sjolle wrote:
> On 03/23/2008 08:49 PM, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> > It is usual for upstream developers not to support the debian packages.  
> > If you have troubles you should contact the maintainer/file a bug.
> 
> Generally or for web applications? Why?

I don't think this is related to web applications and I can think of two 
reasons:

- the Debian version is older then upstream (especially for stable)
- the Debian version is more or less modified

You don't have to worry about it. If you find a bug it is the 
maintainers responsibility to check if the bug is Debian specific or 
upstream and handle accordingly.

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: dependencies woes with Debian MediaWiki package

[Simon Jolle sjolle]

On 03/23/2008 08:49 PM, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> It is usual for upstream developers not to support the debian packages.  
> If you have troubles you should contact the maintainer/file a bug.

Generally or for web applications? Why?

cheers
Simon


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Re: dependencies woes with Debian MediaWiki package

[Andrei Popescu]

On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 02:28:40PM +0100, Simon Jolle sjolle wrote:
> On 03/21/2008 09:20 PM, Andrei Popescu wrote:
>  > I don't think so. Run 'aptitude keep-all', 'aptitude update' and retry.
> > Do you get the same thing? I'm guessing you tried to install some task 
> > and aptitude still remembers it.
> 
> Hi Andrei
> 
> No success.
> 
> Need to get 257MB/262MB of archives. After unpacking 671MB will be used.
> Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]
 
Did you try without recommends? Beware, depending on version (stable or 
not) the method to turn of recommends may differ.

You can also try Doug's suggestion and look at each package aptitude 
wants to install after the first 'g'. If it's only pulled in by a 
"recommends" than it is safe not to install it (though you might miss 
some functionality).

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: dependencies woes with Debian MediaWiki package

[Andrei Popescu]

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 02:33:49PM +0100, Simon Jolle sjolle wrote:
> I posted the same topic on Mediawiki admins mailinglist. A Mediawiki
> developer[0] told that the Debian package is unsupported third-party and
> they receive a lot of complaints about it.

It is usual for upstream developers not to support the debian packages.  
If you have troubles you should contact the maintainer/file a bug.

> So will install myself. The only downside that I need to care myself
> about security patches.

No, the debian maintainer should take care of that too (especially for 
etch).

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: dependencies woes with Debian MediaWiki package

[Simon Jolle sjolle]

I posted the same topic on Mediawiki admins mailinglist. A Mediawiki
developer[0] told that the Debian package is unsupported third-party and
they receive a lot of complaints about it.

So will install myself. The only downside that I need to care myself
about security patches.

cheers
Simon

[0] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-l/2008-March/026702.html



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Re: dependencies woes with Debian MediaWiki package

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 02:28:40PM +0100, Simon Jolle sjolle wrote:
> On 03/21/2008 09:20 PM, Andrei Popescu wrote:
>  > I don't think so. Run 'aptitude keep-all', 'aptitude update' and retry.
> > Do you get the same thing? I'm guessing you tried to install some task 
> > and aptitude still remembers it.
> 
> Hi Andrei
> 
> No success.
> 
> Need to get 257MB/262MB of archives. After unpacking 671MB will be used.
> Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]
> 
> > Regards,
> > Andrei
> 
> cheers
> Simon
> 

Try running aptitude with no args and you'll get the curses interactive
screen.  You can use that to sort out exactly what aptitude wants to do
and why.  If you've never used this mode of aptitude, you may want to
get the aptitude manual; if so just get the deb with your web browser
and install it with dpkg.

Doug.




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Re: dependencies woes with Debian MediaWiki package

[Simon Jolle sjolle]

On 03/21/2008 09:20 PM, Andrei Popescu wrote:
 > I don't think so. Run 'aptitude keep-all', 'aptitude update' and retry.
> Do you get the same thing? I'm guessing you tried to install some task 
> and aptitude still remembers it.

Hi Andrei

No success.

Need to get 257MB/262MB of archives. After unpacking 671MB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]

> Regards,
> Andrei

cheers
Simon



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Re: dependencies woes with Debian MediaWiki package

[Simon Jolle sjolle]

On 03/21/2008 10:20 PM, Daniel Burrows wrote:
>   Which version of Debian are you running?  etch?

Yes I am running Etch.

>   What do you get if you add "-D" to the aptitude install line?

Sorry for such a long Copypasta.

# aptitude -D install mediawiki mediawiki-extensions
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading extended state information
Initializing package states... Done
Reading task descriptions... Done
Building tag database... Done
The following NEW packages will be automatically installed:
  dbus (R: libdbus-1-3) dictionaries-common (D: myspell-en-us, R:
dictionaries-common) esound-clients (R: libesd0)
  esound-common (D: esound-clients, D: libesd0) fam (R: libfam0, R:
libgnomevfs2-0) fontconfig (D: libpango1.0-common)
  freetype1-tools (R: latex-cjk-common, S: libttf2) gconf2 (D:
libgnome2-common, D: libgnomevfs2-common)
  gconf2-common (D: gconf2, D: libgconf2-4) gnome-keyring (D:
libgnome-keyring0) gnome-mime-data (D: libgnomevfs2-common)
  gs-common (D: gs-gpl)
  gs-gpl (D: gs-common, D: gv, D: mediawiki1.7-math, R: psutils, R:
tetex-doc, S: gs-common, S: imagemagick, S: tetex-bin)
  gsfonts (D: gs-common, D: gsfonts-x11, D: xpdf-reader, R: gs-gpl)
gsfonts-x11 (D: fontconfig-config, R: xpdf-common)
  gv (R: tetex-doc, S: psutils, S: tetex-bin) hicolor-icon-theme (R:
libgtk2.0-0) hlatex-fonts-base (D: latex-cjk-korean)
  hlatex-fonts-extra (R: latex-cjk-korean)
  iceape-browser (D: iceape-gnome-support, D: mozilla-browser, R:
tetex-doc, S: man-db, S: munin, S: xpdf-reader)
  iceape-gnome-support (R: iceape-browser) imagemagick (D:
mediawiki1.7-math, S: mediawiki1.7)
  latex-beamer (R: tetex-extra) latex-cjk-all (R: mediawiki1.7-math)
  latex-cjk-chinese (D: latex-cjk-all, D:
latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-bkai00mp, D: latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-bsmi00lp,
D: latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-gbsn00lp, D: latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-gkai00mp)
  latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-bkai00mp (R: latex-cjk-chinese, R:
latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-bkai00mp)
  latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-bsmi00lp (R: latex-cjk-chinese, R:
latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-bsmi00lp)
  latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-gbsn00lp (R: latex-cjk-chinese, R:
latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-gbsn00lp)
  latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-gkai00mp (R: latex-cjk-chinese, R:
latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-gkai00mp)
  latex-cjk-common (D: latex-cjk-all, D: latex-cjk-chinese, D:
latex-cjk-japanese, D: latex-cjk-korean, D: latex-cjk-thai, R:
latex-cjk-common)
  latex-cjk-japanese (D: latex-cjk-all, D: latex-cjk-japanese-wadalab)
latex-cjk-japanese-wadalab (R: latex-cjk-japanese)
  latex-cjk-korean (D: latex-cjk-all) latex-cjk-thai (D: latex-cjk-all)
  latex-xcolor (D: latex-beamer, D: pgf, R: tetex-extra) lesstif2 (D:
xpdf-reader)
  libatk1.0-0 (D: gnome-keyring, D: iceape-browser, D: libatk1.0-data,
D: libbonoboui2-0, D: libglade2-0, D: libgnomecanvas2-0, D:
libgnomeui-0, D: libgtk2.0-0)
  libatk1.0-data (R: libatk1.0-0) libaudiofile0 (D: esound-clients, D:
libesd0, D: libgnome2-0)
  libavahi-client3 (D: libgnomevfs2-0) libavahi-common-data (D:
libavahi-common3)
  libavahi-common3 (D: libavahi-client3, D: libavahi-glib1, D:
libgnomevfs2-0) libavahi-glib1 (D: libgnomevfs2-0)
  libbonobo2-0 (D: libbonobo2-common, D: libbonoboui2-0, D: libgnome2-0,
D: libgnomeui-0, D: libgnomevfs2-0)
  libbonobo2-common (D: libbonobo2-0) libbonoboui2-0 (D: libgnomeui-0)
libbonoboui2-common (D: libbonoboui2-0)
  libcairo2 (D: gnome-keyring, D: iceape-browser, D: libbonoboui2-0, D:
libglade2-0, D: libgnomecanvas2-0, D: libgnomeui-0, D: libgtk2.0-0, D:
libpango1.0-0)
  libcompress-zlib-perl (R: libwww-perl, S: libplrpc-perl)
  libdbus-1-3 (D: dbus, D: libavahi-client3, D: libdbus-glib-1-2, D:
libgnomevfs2-0, D: libhal-storage1, D: libhal1)
  libdbus-glib-1-2 (D: libgnomevfs2-0) libesd0 (D: esound-clients, D:
libgnome2-0) libfam0 (D: libgnomevfs2-0)
  libfont-afm-perl (D: libhtml-format-perl) libfontenc1 (D: libxfont1,
D: xfonts-utils, D: xutils) libfs6 (D: xutils)
  libgconf2-4 (D: gconf2, D: libbonoboui2-0, D: libgnome2-0, D:
libgnomeui-0, D: libgnomevfs2-0)
  libglade2-0 (D: libbonoboui2-0, D: libgnomecanvas2-0, D: libgnomeui-0)
  libglib2.0-0 (D: gconf2, D: gnome-keyring, D: iceape-browser, D:
iceape-gnome-support, D: libatk1.0-0, D: libavahi-glib1, D:
libbonobo2-0, D: libbonobo2-common, D: libbonoboui2-0, D:
libdbus-glib-1-2, D: libgconf2-4, D: libglade2-0, D: libglib2.0-data, D:
libgnome-keyring0, D: libgnome2-0, D: libgnomecanvas2-0, D:
libgnomeui-0, D: libgnomevfs2-0, D: libgnomevfs2-extra, D: libgtk2.0-0,
D: libidl0, D: liborbit2, D: libpango1.0-0, D: shared-mime-info)
  libglib2.0-data (R: libglib2.0-0) libgnome-keyring0 (D: libgnomeui-0)
  libgnome2-0 (D: iceape-gnome-support, D: libbonoboui2-0, D:
libgnomeui-0) libgnome2-common (D: libgnome2-0)
  libgnomecanvas2-0 (D: libbonoboui2-0, D: libgnomeui-0)
libgnomecanvas2-common (D: libgnomecanvas2-0)
  libgnomeui-0 (D: iceape-gnome-support) libgnomeui-common (D:
libgnomeui-0)
  libgnomevfs2-0 (D: iceape-gnome-support, D: libbonoboui2-0, D:
libgno

Re: dependencies woes with Debian MediaWiki package

[Daniel Burrows]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 07:38:36PM +0100, Simon Jolle sjolle <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> was heard to say:
> I have here VDS with minimal Debian installation. Why Debian wish to
> install me Firefox, Gnome/GTK+ components, X11 components, Latex, Sound
> server, portmap, quite enough libraries etc.

  Which version of Debian are you running?  etch?

  What do you get if you add "-D" to the aptitude install line?

  Daniel


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Re: dependencies woes with Debian MediaWiki package

[Andrei Popescu]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 07:38:36PM +0100, Simon Jolle sjolle wrote:
> Hi Debian users
> 
> I have here VDS with minimal Debian installation. Why Debian wish to
> install me Firefox, Gnome/GTK+ components, X11 components, Latex, Sound
> server, portmap, quite enough libraries etc.
> 
> Does MediaWiki really have that much dependencies?
> 
> Do I really need 671 MB wasted diskspace for a PHP/MySQL web application?
 
I don't think so. Run 'aptitude keep-all', 'aptitude update' and retry.  
Do you get the same thing? I'm guessing you tried to install some task 
and aptitude still remembers it.

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: dependencies problem - open office/adesklets

[Dimitar Vukman]

On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:14:34 -0400
Kamaraju Kusumanchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Seems like this bug is already reported 
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=380757

Aloha,

Thanks for posting the info. I guess it'll be fixed soon.



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Re: dependencies problem - open office/adesklets

[Kamaraju Kusumanchi]

On Monday 04 September 2006 06:50, Dimitar Vukman wrote:
> Aloha,
>
> Here's the situation. I want openoffice from testing or unstable, it
> wants to remove adesklets and I can't install adeskleds because of deps.
>
> What to do? Force it?

Seems like this bug is already reported 
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=380757

Unless that issue is solved, I do not think you can install adesklets...

raju

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Re: dependencies problem - open office/adesklets

[Dimitar Vukman]

> results in nothing. Am I missing something here?
> 
> raju

It's not in testing, it's in sarge and sid. But the same question
remains. Adesklets and openoffice from ustable need different versions
of python, adesklets (<< 2.4) && openoffice pn python (  python-uno:
Depends: python (>= 2.4) ).

http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?keywords=adesklets&searchon=names&subword=1&version=all&release=all

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Re: dependencies problem - open office/adesklets

[Dimitar Vukman]

> What is this adesklets software that you are talking about? On my
> Etch machine
> 
> $apt-cache search adesklets
> 
> results in nothing. Am I missing something here?


[04:43 PM Mon Sep [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~
$ apt-cache search adesklets
adesklets - interactive Imlib2 console for the X Window System

 adesklets is an interactive Imlib2 console for the X Window system. It
 provides to scripted languages a clean and simple way to write great
 looking, mildly interactive desktop integrated graphic applets (aka
 "desklets") .

 Homepage: http://adesklets.sourceforge.net


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Re: dependencies problem - open office/adesklets

[Kamaraju Kusumanchi]

On Monday 04 September 2006 06:50, Dimitar Vukman wrote:
> Aloha,
>
> Here's the situation. I want openoffice from testing or unstable, it
> wants to remove adesklets and I can't install adeskleds because of deps.
>
> What to do? Force it?
>

What is this adesklets software that you are talking about? On my Etch machine

$apt-cache search adesklets

results in nothing. Am I missing something here?

raju

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Re: Dependencies in Debian Control file

[Sven Hoexter]

On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 04:16:46PM -0400, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> Magnus Therning wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 02:43:12PM -0500, Ek Zindagoi wrote:
> > 
> >>Hi:
> >>I am creating a package in Debian and have some questions about
> >>specifying dependencies in the control file.
> >>The Dependencies make up five of the fields in a control file: Depends,
> >>Enhances, Pre-Depends, Recommends, and Suggests. But all the these fields
> >>accept package names and versions as arguments/parameters.
> >>
> >>My question is : Is there any way for me to specify a file as a parameter
> >>to the "Depends" dependency list along with the package list ?
> > 
> > 
> > Please tell us more, why do you want to put the existance of a file as a
> > dependency?
> > 
> > Would it not be enough to create the file, if it doesn't already exist,
> > when the package is installed?
> 
> He is probably thinking of the way that RPMs are package.  For example,
> if you need to be able to send mail, you can depend on the existence of
> /usr/lib/sendmail or /usr/sbin/sendmail. 
That's been a very bad idea anyway. Donno what the state of the rpm nation
is ATM but the Conectiva guys did not use file depends in their distribution.
Well now they're 'Mandriva' and things may have changed.

Sven
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Re: Dependencies in Debian Control file

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Magnus Therning wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 02:43:12PM -0500, Ek Zindagoi wrote:
> 
>>Hi:
>>I am creating a package in Debian and have some questions about
>>specifying dependencies in the control file.
>>The Dependencies make up five of the fields in a control file: Depends,
>>Enhances, Pre-Depends, Recommends, and Suggests. But all the these fields
>>accept package names and versions as arguments/parameters.
>>
>>My question is : Is there any way for me to specify a file as a parameter
>>to the "Depends" dependency list along with the package list ?
> 
> 
> Please tell us more, why do you want to put the existance of a file as a
> dependency?
> 
> Would it not be enough to create the file, if it doesn't already exist,
> when the package is installed?
> 
> /M
> 

He is probably thinking of the way that RPMs are package.  For example,
if you need to be able to send mail, you can depend on the existence of
/usr/lib/sendmail or /usr/sbin/sendmail.  In DEB packages this is done
by dependinding on a dummy or virtual package (I forget the correct
term) like mail-transport-agent, which all sendmail-compatible MTAs provide.

-Roberto

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Re: Dependencies in Debian Control file

[Magnus Therning]

On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 02:43:12PM -0500, Ek Zindagoi wrote:
>Hi:
> I am creating a package in Debian and have some questions about
>specifying dependencies in the control file.
> The Dependencies make up five of the fields in a control file: Depends,
>Enhances, Pre-Depends, Recommends, and Suggests. But all the these fields
>accept package names and versions as arguments/parameters.
>
> My question is : Is there any way for me to specify a file as a parameter
>to the "Depends" dependency list along with the package list ?

Please tell us more, why do you want to put the existance of a file as a
dependency?

Would it not be enough to create the file, if it doesn't already exist,
when the package is installed?

/M

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Re: Dependencies in Debian Control file

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Ek Zindagoi wrote:
> Hi:
>  I am creating a package in Debian and have some questions about
> specifying dependencies in the control file.
>  The Dependencies make up five of the fields in a control file: Depends,
> Enhances, Pre-Depends, Recommends, and Suggests. But all the these
> fields accept package names and versions as arguments/parameters.
> 
>  My question is : Is there any way for me to specify a file as a
> parameter to the "Depends" dependency list along with the package list ?
>  
>  Thanks for your replies.
>  
> Apprentice

No, you can only specify packages of one sort or another.  Also, you
will ikely get better answers on the debian-mentors mailing list.

-Roberto

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Re: dependencies

[Alejandro Bonilla Beeche]

On Wed, 2005-09-21 at 00:27 -0400, Bryan Donlan wrote:
> On 9/20/05, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi, can anyone help me with this dependencies? I can't freaking upgrade.
> > 
> > This is Sid, just did apt-get update and need to update my system a bit.
> > 
> > Any idea?
> > 
> [snip]
> > 
> 
> Report a bug against libdjvulibre15, if there isn't one already, then do:
> dpkg --force-overwrite --unpack
> /var/cache/apt/archives/libdjvulibre15_3.5.15-1_i386.deb
> apt-get -f install
> 
Awesome! That did it! ;-) I don't know all the trick it looks like.

I don't even know why I have that installed.

Anyway, Thanks!

.Alejandro


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Re: dependencies

[Bryan Donlan]

On 9/20/05, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi, can anyone help me with this dependencies? I can't freaking upgrade.
> 
> This is Sid, just did apt-get update and need to update my system a bit.
> 
> Any idea?
> 
[snip]
> debian:~# apt-get -f install
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree... Done
> Correcting dependencies... Done
> The following extra packages will be installed:
>   libdjvulibre15 libpoppler0c2 libpoppler0c2-glib
> The following packages will be REMOVED:
>   libpoppler0 libpoppler0-glib
> The following NEW packages will be installed:
>   libdjvulibre15 libpoppler0c2 libpoppler0c2-glib
> 0 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 2 to remove and 230 not upgraded.
> 4 not fully installed or removed.
> Need to get 0B/1239kB of archives.
> After unpacking 2359kB of additional disk space will be used.
> Do you want to continue [Y/n]? y
> WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!
>   libdjvulibre15 libpoppler0c2 libpoppler0c2-glib
> Install these packages without verification [y/N]? y
> (Reading database ... 118083 files and directories currently installed.)
> Unpacking libdjvulibre15 (from .../libdjvulibre15_3.5.15-1_i386.deb) ...
> dpkg: error
> processing /var/cache/apt/archives/libdjvulibre15_3.5.15-1_i386.deb
> (--unpack):
>  trying to overwrite `/usr/share/djvu/osi/de/libdjvu++.xml', which is
> also in package libdjvulibre1
> dpkg-deb: subprocess paste killed by signal (Broken pipe)
> Errors were encountered while processing:
>  /var/cache/apt/archives/libdjvulibre15_3.5.15-1_i386.deb
> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
> 

Report a bug against libdjvulibre15, if there isn't one already, then do:
dpkg --force-overwrite --unpack
/var/cache/apt/archives/libdjvulibre15_3.5.15-1_i386.deb
apt-get -f install

Re: Dependencies Problem

[cep welly]

Umar Draz wrote:
hi dear members!
 
  i have question about dependencies. I want to install qmail thats 
why i need courier-imap and courier-imap-ssl. when i want to install 
courier-imap i face dependcey of exim but i don't want to install exim.
so, remove exim if you don't want it to.
there's several mta packages you can consider such as postfix.
 
  so please help me how i can ignore dependcies is it possible?
 
thanks & regards
 
Umar Draz


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- 50x more storage than other providers! 

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Re: Dependencies in Dir w/ Many .deb Files

[Lourens Steenkamp]

Lourens replying to Kenneth Jacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  I have a slow Internet connection at home.  :-(
>  
>  I can't yet use apt-zip since my home 'ppp' link still doesn't work
>  (non-"8 bit clean" issues) thus prohibiting me from updating the apt
>  database via the net.  :-(
>  
>  
>  So, in order to temporarily keep my home system current, I am doing
>  the following:
>  
>o  Updating my office system (both are running pretty much
>   the same configuration of 'sarge')
>  
>o Copying all the newly installed debs on the office machine from
>  /var/cache/apt/archive to removable media
>  
>o  Bringing that media home and copying the deb files to my home
>hard drive
>  
>o  Finally, I run "dpkg -i *.deb" on those newly transferred file
>  
>  
>  The problem with this approach is "*.deb" orders alphabetically
>  instead of by dependency.  I must iteratively run the above command
>  placing needed debs before the final "*.deb" argument.  That takes
>  time (and patience)!
>  
>  QUESTION: is there some option to 'dpkg' or another command/script
>  that
>will generate the file names in an order such that the
>dependencies are met?
>  
>  Thanks for any ideas!
>  

Apologies for the late post (I have been away for a while).

I use the approach described in section 2.2 of the APT Howto "How
to use APT Locally".
Simply copy all the files in /var/cache/apt/archives (office
machine) to, for example, /home/debs (home machine)
in /home -> touch override
in /home -> dpkg-scanpackages debs override | gzip > debs/Packages.gz
add to /etc/apt/sources.list 
  -> deb file:/home debs/
apt-get update
apt-get install foo

HTH

*

Lourens Steenkamp
Enjoying Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 r2

*

A monk was traveling and came to a fork in the road. 
He stopped, looked at it and decided to leave it there 
for someone else to ponder, someone who may need it, 
for his own spoon was quite sufficient.



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Re: Dependencies in Dir w/ Many .deb Files

[Kenneth Jacker]

  aj> You can:
  aj>
  aj> - Copy the files in /var/lib/apt/lists from the office machine as well
  aj> - Use apt-move on the office machine to move the downloaded files into a
  aj>   hierarchy that you can add to your sources.list on your home computer,
  aj>   e.g. using apt-cdrom
  aj> - Read the apt-offline howto

Wow, I didn't know there might be so many solutions!

While waiting for responses to my original post, I came up with yet
another approach:

   o Run Aptitude on my office machine

   o Copy/paste Aptitude's output into a file (say, "aptout")

   o Use that file as input to a simple Perl script (attached below)
 using:

 # ao2dep aptout >aptdeps

   o Transfer all files to home machine including "aptdeps"

   o At home install the new/upgraded files:

 # dpkg -i `cat aptdeps`


Now back to my 'ppp' problems!  When I solve them, I won't need any
of the above ...

Thanks for your comments,

  -Kenneth

#!/usr/bin/perl
#
#  ao2dep: transform Aptitude install/upgrade output
#   into list of files in correct dependency order
#
#$Id: ao2dep,v 1.1 2004/07/19 12:19:22 root Exp $
#

### Make sure there's a file name on command line ###
if ($#ARGV != 0) {
print "Usage: ao2dep \n";
exit (1);
}

### Generate the correctly ordered file list ###
while(<>) {

# Select correct lines from entire Aptitude output
if (/using|from/) {

# Delete prefix text
s/.*...\///;

# Delete suffix text
s/\).*//;

# Output the file name
print;
}

}

Re: Dependencies in Dir w/ Many .deb Files

[Andreas Janssen]

Hello

Kenneth Jacker (<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:

> I have a slow Internet connection at home.  :-(
> 
> I can't yet use apt-zip since my home 'ppp' link still doesn't work
> (non-"8 bit clean" issues) thus prohibiting me from updating the apt
> database via the net.  :-(
> 
> 
> So, in order to temporarily keep my home system current, I am doing
> the following:
> 
>   o  Updating my office system (both are running pretty much
>  the same configuration of 'sarge')
> 
>   o Copying all the newly installed debs on the office machine from
> /var/cache/apt/archive to removable media
> 
>   o  Bringing that media home and copying the deb files to my home
>   hard drive
> 
>   o  Finally, I run "dpkg -i *.deb" on those newly transferred file
> 
> 
> The problem with this approach is "*.deb" orders alphabetically
> instead of by dependency.  I must iteratively run the above command
> placing needed debs before the final "*.deb" argument.  That takes
> time (and patience)!
> 
> QUESTION: is there some option to 'dpkg' or another command/script
> that
>   will generate the file names in an order such that the
>   dependencies are met?

You can:

- Copy the files in /var/lib/apt/lists from the office machine as well
- Use apt-move on the office machine to move the downloaded files into a
hierarchy that you can add to your sources.list on your home computer,
e.g. using apt-cdrom
- Read the apt-offline howto

best regards
Andreas Janssen

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Re: Dependencies of the Damned!

[Carl Fink]

On Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 11:52:56AM +, Colin Watson wrote:

> I don't understand. There's no package called libxrender1.1 in any
> Debian distribution, and no mention of it in any other package's
> dependencies. Where are you getting it from?

Hmm.  From

http://ftp.acc.umu.se/mirror/mirrors.evilgeniuses.org.uk/debian/backports/woody/gnome2.2/

That's an unofficial Woody backport of GNOME 2.2.  I'm going to comment that
out and apt-get update, then see what happens.

...

Okay, it's installing libgtk2.0-dev, which should let me compile avidemux.

...

And it does.  Thanks, Colin.  I had completely forgotten adding that mirror
to my sources.list file.

Debian-user triumphs again.
--  
Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabootu's Minister of Proofreading
http://www.jabootu.com


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Re: Dependencies of the Damned!

[CaT]

On Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 11:52:56AM +, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 06:12:11AM -0500, Carl Fink wrote:
> I don't understand. There's no package called libxrender1.1 in any
> Debian distribution, and no mention of it in any other package's
> dependencies. Where are you getting it from?

Indeed. I just tried it on my testing box:

# apt-get -u install libgtk2.0-dev
Reading Package Lists... Done
Building Dependency Tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
  libatk1.0-dev libexpat1-dev libfontconfig1-dev libglib2.0-dev
  libpango1.0-dev libxft-dev libxrender-dev pkg-config render-dev
Suggested packages:
  libglib2.0-doc libgtk2.0-doc libgnome-dev
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  libatk1.0-dev libexpat1-dev libfontconfig1-dev libglib2.0-dev libgtk2.0-dev
  libpango1.0-dev libxft-dev libxrender-dev pkg-config render-dev
0 upgraded, 10 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 3683kB of archives.
After unpacking 13.1MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] 

-- 
  From the people who brought you burnt villages in Vietnam...

  http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=452375


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Re: Dependencies of the Damned!

[Colin Watson]

On Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 06:12:11AM -0500, Carl Fink wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 22, 2003 at 11:50:53PM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote:
> > And now you see why all that other stuff had to be removed.  It depends on
> > libxrender1, and you're trying to install libxrender1.1...
> 
> So libxrender1.1 isn't backward-compatible and you can't have both
> installed?
> 
> > It's doing exactly what you told it to do.  Since you asked for a single
> > package install, apt assumes you know exactly what you're doing.
> 
> Sure, I knew that.  I just thought that long chain of dependencies and the
> inconsistent state of Testing was funny.

I don't understand. There's no package called libxrender1.1 in any
Debian distribution, and no mention of it in any other package's
dependencies. Where are you getting it from?

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Dependencies of the Damned!

[Carl Fink]

On Mon, Dec 22, 2003 at 11:50:53PM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote:

> And now you see why all that other stuff had to be removed.  It depends on
> libxrender1, and you're trying to install libxrender1.1...

So libxrender1.1 isn't backward-compatible and you can't have both
installed?

> It's doing exactly what you told it to do.  Since you asked for a single
> package install, apt assumes you know exactly what you're doing.

Sure, I knew that.  I just thought that long chain of dependencies and the
inconsistent state of Testing was funny.
--  
Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabootu's Minister of Proofreading
http://www.jabootu.com


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Re: Dependencies of the Damned!

[Marc Wilson]

On Mon, Dec 22, 2003 at 10:41:43PM -0500, Carl Fink wrote:
> I'm trying to install the newest avidemux (2.0.20) on my Testing system. 
> Since Christian Marillat hasn't built a .deb of it, I have to build it.



> Can't be installed because it depends on libxrender1.1, which isn't going to
> be installed.  Continuing out of sheer stubbornness:
> 
>   apt-get install libxrender1.1



>libxrender1 mozilla-browser mozilla-firebird mozilla-psm snd

And now you see why all that other stuff had to be removed.  It depends on
libxrender1, and you're trying to install libxrender1.1...

> This just doesn't look optimal.

It's doing exactly what you told it to do.  Since you asked for a single
package install, apt assumes you know exactly what you're doing.

-- 
 Marc Wilson | Q: What do monsters eat?  A: Things.  Q: What do
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | monsters drink?  A: Coke.  (Because Things go better
 | with Coke.)


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Re: Dependencies of the Damned!

[s. keeling]

Incoming from Carl Fink:
> I'm trying to install the newest avidemux (2.0.20) on my Testing system. 
> Since Christian Marillat hasn't built a .deb of it, I have to build it.

You can save yourself a lot of time with "apt-get --dry-run install
avidemux".  That tells me there's mountains of stuff that that's going
to want to fiddle with.  No thanks.


-- 
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*)   http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling 
- -


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Re: Dependencies and .deb vs creating .deb's from source code

[Karsten M. Self]

on Thu, Sep 04, 2003 at 09:43:06PM +0100, Chris Wilcox ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm currently involved in a Debian-distro based project which aims to 
> create an Internet caching product for schools which would hopefully take 
> the form of a Debian install CD which would install relevant packages from 
> CD and then update when required from the Internet via existing servers 
> where possible and our own servers for deb packages which we need to create 
> ourselves (This is a very basic description!).

See apt-proxy.

Your solution will almost certainly use it to a greater or lesser
extent.  Sounds like what you want to do is manage your own mirrors, for
the most part.

> We're currently debating which will be easier in relation to creating and 
> maintaing the packages we'll need.  From those in the know, are we better 
> doing either of the following:
> 
> 1) We alter existing deb's and from that point forth need to check the 
> debian package list for updates, get them and their dependencies, alter 
> them and host them

See above.  If there are general docs on setting up a Debian mirror,
read 'em.

> 2) We use stable source code, create our own deb's, host them, check the 
> web sites for the relevant package for updates important enough to make use 
> create a new deb package and host that

This can be accomplished to a certain extent through pinning.  That is,
define sources and a release level, but include additional sources (also
proxied) which can be explicitly installed, if necessary.

> How will we be affected by dependencies on other apps with either of
> the above?  

Probably horribly. 

I'm curious as to what you're changing from base Debs that's so crucial
to isolate yourself from the mainstream Debian distro, and why you feel
you have to do this.

> We currently have a blank canvas to work from which is based around
> the bf24 kernel install of Debian with only the C++ Development option
> installed.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
   TWiki:  documentation for the GNU millennium.
 http://twiki.org/


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Description: PGP signature

Re: dependencies .... ???

[David Z Maze]

Dave Selby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I have a ham v90 winmodem .. I tracked down the driver for it which is
> Intel-V92ham-451 It installs with ...
>
> make clean
> make ham
> make install

When you 'make ham', how does it find your actual kernel source?  You
almost certainly need unpacked kernel source or a Debian
kernel-headers package matching your kernel, and somehow tell the
Makefile how to find it.  It could be something like

  make ham KSRC=/usr/local/src/linux-2.4.19

but the actual syntax is probably different.  By default, it'll
probably try to use the headers in /usr/include/linux, which is
essentially always wrong.  (/usr/share/doc/libc6/README.Debian.gz)

-- 
David Maze [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://people.debian.org/~dmaze/
"Theoretical politics is interesting.  Politicking should be illegal."
-- Abra Mitchell


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Re: dependencies rpoblem

[Henrique M Holschuh]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Joachim Trinkwitz wrote:
> > postfix was designed from the beginning with security in mind.  And it's
> > easier to configure than sendmail or qmail.
> 
> Periodically I begin to believe in such statements only to after the
> installation each time find myself desperately searching up and down
> the docs and list archives after a solution to this problem:

The docs at www.postfix.org are very helpful, especially the FAQ.

> me don't try to use postfix?). How can I convince postfix to rewrite
> my From: address not only to a different hostname (this one I found
> in the docs), but also to a different username. (Maybe the problem is
> that I don't really understand the mail admin jargon).

Use canonical maps (a sender_canonical map should be enough for you if you
only want to rewrite outgoing email) with a line such as:

localname   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Almost all rewriting in postfix is done using maps.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: dependencies rpoblem

[Joachim Trinkwitz]

jpb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> postfix was designed from the beginning with security in mind.  And it's
> easier to configure than sendmail or qmail.

Periodically I begin to believe in such statements only to after the
installation each time find myself desperately searching up and down
the docs and list archives after a solution to this problem:

using a dialup connection, I have a different user name at my ISP (a
number/character combination) as my user name on my linux system at
home (I am really the only one or is it so that all other people like
me don't try to use postfix?). How can I convince postfix to rewrite
my From: address not only to a different hostname (this one I found
in the docs), but also to a different username. (Maybe the problem is
that I don't really understand the mail admin jargon).

With qmail this is as simple as setting the environment variable
QMAILUSER in the .bash_profile. (The only reason I abandonned qmail
was that it doesn't support SMTP on dialup connections.)

I never found someone who could answer this question -- maybe this
time I have more luck?

Greetings,
joachim

RE: dependencies rpoblem

[Lehel Bernadt]

On 12-Jun-2000 Chris Mason wrote:
> I'm trying to install postfix and remove exim, I am having a problem because
> "apt-get remove exim" fails because there are dependent programs. I don't
> care, I would like to force the removal and then install postfix but even
> "apt-get -f remove exim" fails. Is there a way to forcilble remove exim?

Try "dpkg --force-depends --purge exim". 

Re: dependencies rpoblem

[Mark Brown]

On Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:33:41PM -0400, Chris Mason wrote:

> I'm trying to install postfix and remove exim, I am having a problem because
> "apt-get remove exim" fails because there are dependent programs. I don't
> care, I would like to force the removal and then install postfix but even
> "apt-get -f remove exim" fails. Is there a way to forcilble remove exim?

Just do "apt-get install postfix" and exim will be removed automatically
during the process.

-- 
Mark Brown  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   (Trying to avoid grumpiness)
http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~broonie/
EUFShttp://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/filmsoc/


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Re: dependencies rpoblem

[jpb]

Sven Burgener wrote:
> 
> >I had no problems ditching exim and installing postfix a few months
> ago.
> 
> What advantages / plus-points does postfix have over exim?
> I have only been using exim for a week now. Ran sendmail before, but as
> I wasn't able to configure it to my (simple) needs, I switched to exim.

postfix was designed from the beginning with security in mind.  And it's
easier to configure than sendmail or qmail.  And unlike qmail (which to
be fair, was also designed with security as the main design goal) you
can distribute precompiled binaries.

Postfix is also supposed to be less of a system load than sendmail, but
my mail server only sends out a couple of thousand messages a day, so
sendmail wasn't much load either.

jpb
-- 
Joe Block <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CREOL System Administrator

Social graces are the packet headers of everyday life.

Re: dependencies rpoblem

[Henrique M Holschuh]

On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Chris Mason wrote:
> When I try to run dselect, it wants to uninstall packages that I have
> installed myself, so that won't do.

You should try to fix that problem. But do run dselect update first, to make
sure apt and dselect agree in the package available file... (also, make sure
dselect is using the apt method).

Still, dpkg should be able to install postfix and ditch exim regardless of
what dselect and apt think, just use the proper --force options.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh 

Re: dependencies rpoblem

[Henrique M Holschuh]

On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Sven Burgener wrote:
> >I had no problems ditching exim and installing postfix a few months
> ago.
> 
> What advantages / plus-points does postfix have over exim?

Secure design, using chroot jails (even in Debian's default installation),
only the postfix 'master' daemon runs as root, all others components of the
mail system (smtp daemons, queue management, rewriting, etc) run as separate
processes under the user Postfix and inside the chroot jail.

Also, Postfix is fast, very very fast. And quite easy to configure, as long
as you do read the FAQ and enclosed documentation. Postfix is also very
stable, and the Debian package is well maintained (I don't know about exim's
Debian package).

> I have only been using exim for a week now. Ran sendmail before, but as
> I wasn't able to configure it to my (simple) needs, I switched to exim.

Exim is more powerful than postfix in certain areas, but unless you need to
do massive header rewrites, or MTA-level filters, postfix (+ procmail or
maildrop if you need filtering) should be enough.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh 

RE: dependencies rpoblem

[Chris Mason]

When I try to run dselect, it wants to uninstall packages that I have
installed myself, so that won't do.
I know postfix, but not exim, I have it on another machine, so I would like
to use it instead of exim. All my nerd friends recommend postfix.

Chris Mason
Box 340, The Valley, Anguilla, British West Indies
Tel: 264 497 5670 Fax: 264 497 8463
USA Fax (561) 382-7771
Take a virtual tour of the island
http://net.ai/ The Anguilla Guide
Find out more about NetConcepts
www.netconcepts.ai
bwz*mq

-Original Message-
From: Sven Burgener [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 2:48 PM
To: Henrique M Holschuh; Debian-User
Subject: Re: dependencies rpoblem


>I had no problems ditching exim and installing postfix a few months
ago.

What advantages / plus-points does postfix have over exim?
I have only been using exim for a week now. Ran sendmail before, but as
I wasn't able to configure it to my (simple) needs, I switched to exim.

TIA
Sven


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Re: dependencies rpoblem

[Sven Burgener]

>I had no problems ditching exim and installing postfix a few months
ago.

What advantages / plus-points does postfix have over exim?
I have only been using exim for a week now. Ran sendmail before, but as
I wasn't able to configure it to my (simple) needs, I switched to exim.

TIA
Sven

Re: dependencies rpoblem

[Henrique M Holschuh]

On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Chris Mason wrote:
> I'm trying to install postfix and remove exim, I am having a problem because
> "apt-get remove exim" fails because there are dependent programs. I don't
> care, I would like to force the removal and then install postfix but even
> "apt-get -f remove exim" fails. Is there a way to forcilble remove exim?

Won't apt-get install postfix work before uninstalling exim?  If it won't,
do it using dselect.

I had no problems ditching exim and installing postfix a few months ago.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh 

RE: dependencies

[Brendon Baumgartner]

I now notice that apt-get is stuck at 99.2% CPU usage when its stuck.
There are no pending packages to be configured. Aptget -f install hit the
"Correcting dependencies" message ..and got stuck.

bb


-Original Message-
From: Mark Wagnon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 1999 3:05 PM
To: Brendon Baumgartner
Subject: Re: dependencies


Brendon Baumgartner wrote:
> 
> I don't get any error messages. When i'm using dselect and it does
"checking
> dependencies" it gets stuck. It just sits there and does nothing. I did an
> upgrade to my potato system using apt-get dist-upgrade. Nothing fancy.
Real
> odd if anything. Is there a way to rebuild the dependency database or
> whatever it uses? I'm stuck for now.

I don't know about re-building the dependency database. When I run
apt-get update, it connects with each server, then tells me that it's
reading the Package Lists and Building the Dependency Tree.

You might try apt-get -f update. Also, if any packages are giving you
problems, you can type dpkg --configure --pending. That will configure
anything that's not already configure. If it encounters errors, it'll
diplay them and suggest what packages may fix them.

Try this and see what happens. If you're still having problems, then I
suggest you post to the list. There are people there who are a million
times more knowledgeable than I am.

hth
-- 
 __   _
Mark Wagnon Debian GNU/ -o) / /  (_)__  __   __
Chula Vista, CA /\\/ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ /   
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  _\_v/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\
   http://www.debian.org

Re: dependencies

[Martin Bialasinski]

>> "MM" == Matthew McFarlane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

MM> I'm getting these errors... yet I have these files in /lib/
MM> failed dependencies:
MM> ld-linux.so.2 is needed by XFree86_3DFX-SVGA-3.3.3-4
MM> libc.so.6 is needed by XFree86_3DFX-SVGA-3.3.3-4
[...]

You don't use Debian, right? This is output from rpm, I
believe. Better ask on a mailinglist dedicated to your
distribution. There you'll find the people who can help you.

Ciao,
Martin

Re: dependencies

[Brian Servis]

*- On 20 Apr, Branden Robinson wrote about "Re: dependencies"
> On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 10:00:58AM -0500, Brian Servis wrote:
>> #!/bin/sh
>> # findlibpkg:  Find the libs that a executable depends on and what 
>> #  package they are in.
>> #
>> # usage:   findlibpkg 
>> 
>> LIST=`ldd $1 | cut -d" " -f3`
>> for i in $LIST ; do
>> zgrep "`echo $i | sed -e 's/^\///'` " /var/lib/dpkg/Contents.gz
>> done
>> 
>> #end findlibpkg
> 
> 
> 
> Every time I see sed expressions like that I shake my head.
> 

ok.  Like I said, it was a hack.  It works but may not be perfect.

How about:

LIST=`ldd $1 | cut -d" " -f3`
for i in $LIST ; do
zgrep "`echo $i | sed 's|^/||'` " /var/lib/dpkg/Contents-i386.gz
done

Thanks for the critique.

-- 
Brian 

ps. how are your fvwm radiation burns doing?

Re: dependencies

[Branden Robinson]

On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 10:00:58AM -0500, Brian Servis wrote:
> #!/bin/sh
> # findlibpkg:  Find the libs that a executable depends on and what 
> #  package they are in.
> #
> # usage:   findlibpkg 
> 
> LIST=`ldd $1 | cut -d" " -f3`
> for i in $LIST ; do
> zgrep "`echo $i | sed -e 's/^\///'` " /var/lib/dpkg/Contents.gz
> done
> 
> #end findlibpkg



Every time I see sed expressions like that I shake my head.

The sed info page says:

`s/REGEXP/REPLACEMENT/FLAGS'
 (The `/' characters may be uniformly replaced by any other single
 character within any given `s' command.)

If your pattern and/or replacement space includes forward slashes, just use
another character.

Also, if you are passing a single sed command, you don't need "-e".

   If no `-e', `-f', `--expression', or `--file' options are given on
the command-line, then the first non-option argument on the command
line is taken to be the SCRIPT to be executed.



As far as I know, these two facts have been true about sed since way back,
in the misty days before GNU sed.

-- 
G. Branden Robinson  |   "To be is to do"   -- Plato
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Re: dependencies

[Brian Servis]

*- On 20 Apr, ktb wrote about "dependencies"
> A few weeks ago someone posted a command that showed the dependencies of
> a program.  I must have inadvertently deleted it and can't find it in
> the archives.  Anyway I would like to know how to reveal what libs a
> program uses or needs and once I find the libs know how to find the
> package the libs reside in. How do I do this? 
> Thanks,
> kent
> 
> 

Here is a hack I just threw together.  It requires that you have a
local copy of the Contents file for your arch in /var/lib/dpkg.  

#!/bin/sh
# findlibpkg:  Find the libs that a executable depends on and what 
#  package they are in.
#
# usage:   findlibpkg 

LIST=`ldd $1 | cut -d" " -f3`
for i in $LIST ; do
zgrep "`echo $i | sed -e 's/^\///'` " /var/lib/dpkg/Contents.gz
done

#end findlibpkg



As an example:

% findlibpkg /usr/bin/gs
usr/lib/libz.so.1libs/zlib1g
usr/X11R6/lib/libXt.so.6 x11/xlib6g
usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6   x11/xlib6g
usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6x11/xlib6g
usr/lib/libvga.so.1  
libs/svgalib-dummyg1,libs/svgalibg1,libs/svgalib1-libggi1
usr/lib/libvgagl.so.1
libs/svgalib-dummyg1,libs/svgalibg1,libs/svgalib1-libggi1
lib/libpthread.so.0  base/libc6
usr/lib/libpthread.so.0  oldlibs/libpthread0
usr/lib/libpng.so.2  libs/libpng2
usr/lib/libpaper.so.1libs/libpaperg
lib/libm.so.6base/libc6
lib/libc.so.6base/libc6
usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6 x11/xlib6g
usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6x11/xlib6g
lib/ld-linux.so.2base/libc6

I suppose this could be expanded to use the search engine at 
http://www.debian.org/distrib/packages.html via a direct call to the
cgi script and lynx or something.  That is for another day though.

Enjoy,
-- 
Brian 
-
"Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes,  
 because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." 
   - unknown  

Mechanical Engineering[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Purdue University   http://www.ecn.purdue.edu/~servis
-

Re: dependencies

[Richard Harran]

In my excitement over just how useful the apropos command is, I forgot
to include the following in my previous posting:

To find package which owns :
dpkg -S 
I guess this may not work if you don't have the package installed yet,
which is when it would be most useful.  I guess the only way to find
which package that you don't have installed would provide a lib is to
search the Packages file for that lib.  (The package containing a named
lib is often obvious from the name of the lib, particularly for the
obscure ones which you are less likely to have)

HTH
Rich


ktb wrote:
> 
> A few weeks ago someone posted a command that showed the dependencies of
> a program.  I must have inadvertently deleted it and can't find it in
> the archives.  Anyway I would like to know how to reveal what libs a
> program uses or needs and once I find the libs know how to find the
> package the libs reside in. How do I do this?
> Thanks,
> kent
> 
> --
> Unsubscribe?  mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null

Re: dependencies

[Richard Harran]

ldd 
list the dynamic libraries which the binary executable requires.

A really good tip for finding out what the name of a command is (which I
stumbled across in the Debian Users Manual) is:
apropos 
which lists appropriate man page titles with a brief overview.  eg:
$ apropos library
GDBM_File (3pm)  - Perl5 access to the gdbm library.
dh_shlibdeps (1) - calculate shared library dependancies
hdf (5)  - Hierarchical Data Format library
hosts_access (3) - access control library
intro (3)- Introduction to library functions
ldd (1)  - print shared library dependencies
paperdone (3paper)   - begin and end using the paper library
paperinit (3paper)   - begin and end using the paper library
resolv+ (8)  - enhanced DNS resolver library
stdio (3)- standard input/output library functions
svgalib (7vga)   - a low level graphics library for linux
undocumented (3) - undocumented library functions
uselib (2)   - select shared library
(7vga)   - a fast framebuffer-level graphics library
 based ion svgalib

and there is ldd.

HTH
Rich

ktb wrote:
> 
> A few weeks ago someone posted a command that showed the dependencies of
> a program.  I must have inadvertently deleted it and can't find it in
> the archives.  Anyway I would like to know how to reveal what libs a
> program uses or needs and once I find the libs know how to find the
> package the libs reside in. How do I do this?
> Thanks,
> kent
> 
> --
> Unsubscribe?  mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null

Re: dependencies

[Stephan Engelke]

Hi,

On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 08:20:22AM -0500, ktb wrote:
> A few weeks ago someone posted a command that showed the dependencies of
> a program.  I must have inadvertently deleted it and can't find it in
> the archives.  Anyway I would like to know how to reveal what libs a
> program uses or needs and once I find the libs know how to find the
> package the libs reside in. How do I do this? 
> Thanks,
> kent

you can get information about the dependencies on shared libraries with
the ldd command.

Type ldd .

On my SuSE 5.3 system at work this yields:

$ ldd /bin/ls
libc.so.5 => /lib/libc.so.5 (0x4000c000)

As far programs go, you may be able to use dselect to resolve the
dependencies for you.  Otherwise dpkg is your friend.
I don't have the exact options handy, since I only use Debian at home.
 
Hope this helps at little bit.

So long,
Stephan
-- 
Stephan Engelke[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*** Life is not fair. But the root password helps. ***

Re: dependencies in dselect...

[Nathan E Norman]

On Sun, 23 Aug 1998, Alan Su wrote:

 : is there anyway to permanently override the "suggests" form of
 : dependency in dselect?  i have a system on which i want xbase
 : installed, but not an xserver.  every time i run dselect, it insists
 : on changing the status of xserver-vga16, xfntbase75, and xfntbase100
 : (i think those are the ones) to "install".
 : 
 : i've put these packages on hold, but that doesn't seem to help, it
 : just goes ahead and resets the status.  what's the right way to do
 : this, other than remembering to hit "Q" instead of just the Return
 : key...

That is annoying, isn't it?  I've got a headless server with xbase
installed ... everytime I hit the final enter during the Select stage,
it pops me into a conflict resolution window where it "suggests" an
xserver, xfntbase*, etc. ... at that point I hit "R"; "Q" and go on my
merry way.  Not 100% user-friendly, but not too onerous either.

--
Nathan Norman
MidcoNet  410 South Phillips Avenue  Sioux Falls, SD
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.midco.net
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