subject:"debian\-advocacy\?"

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:49:31AM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:
 Chris Bannister wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:45:03PM +0200, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
   It seems that there's a lot of controversy about the SysV-replacement that
 should not be named. Most, if not all of the arguments for, as well as
 against seem to be of a philosophical, rather than stringent technichnical
 nature. As such, they are probably not suited for this list. So my question
 as a relative newcomer to the Debian ecosystem is if there is an -advocacy
 list, where the philosophical differences can be beaten into the ground,
 while keeping this list at a more factual level?
 
   If not, where do I propose the creation of such a list?
 There already is one, but unfortunately no one is using it. :(
 http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic
 
 
 So why, exactly, is the design philosophy and architecture of the Debian
 ecosystem not a legitimate topic for discussion among Debian users?

The description of the debian-user list seems to be a misnomer. Perhaps
it should read Frontline support for users of the Debian Operating
System.?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Richard Owlett


Chris Bannister wrote:

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:49:31AM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:

Chris Bannister wrote:

On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:45:03PM +0200, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:

  It seems that there's a lot of controversy about the SysV-replacement that
should not be named. Most, if not all of the arguments for, as well as
against seem to be of a philosophical, rather than stringent technichnical
nature. As such, they are probably not suited for this list. So my question
as a relative newcomer to the Debian ecosystem is if there is an -advocacy
list, where the philosophical differences can be beaten into the ground,
while keeping this list at a more factual level?

  If not, where do I propose the creation of such a list?

There already is one, but unfortunately no one is using it. :(
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic



I suspect any list with offtopic in its name will get ignored 
when there is a large number of people want to say something 
about a specific topic.


Would a list whose address was debian-user-newfeatures be more 
attractive?




So why, exactly, is the design philosophy and architecture of the Debian
ecosystem not a legitimate topic for discussion among Debian users?


The description of the debian-user list seems to be a misnomer. Perhaps
it should read Frontline support for users of the Debian Operating
System.?



How about shorter and as explicit - debian-user-support?

I'm a new user with little systems background who finds Squeeze 
LTS will suit my needs for foreseeable future. I'll likely skip 
Jessie completely. Dust should have settled by then.





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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Miles Fidelman


Chris Bannister wrote:

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:49:31AM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:

Chris Bannister wrote:

On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:45:03PM +0200, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:

  It seems that there's a lot of controversy about the SysV-replacement that
should not be named. Most, if not all of the arguments for, as well as
against seem to be of a philosophical, rather than stringent technichnical
nature. As such, they are probably not suited for this list. So my question
as a relative newcomer to the Debian ecosystem is if there is an -advocacy
list, where the philosophical differences can be beaten into the ground,
while keeping this list at a more factual level?

  If not, where do I propose the creation of such a list?

There already is one, but unfortunately no one is using it. :(
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic


So why, exactly, is the design philosophy and architecture of the Debian
ecosystem not a legitimate topic for discussion among Debian users?

The description of the debian-user list seems to be a misnomer. Perhaps
it should read Frontline support for users of the Debian Operating
System.?



Why?  Help and discussion among users of Debian seems like a perfectly 
good description and scope, of long standing.  (Also note, apropos 
discussion of moderation - the list page states This list is not 
moderated; posting is allowed by anyone.)


Miles Fidelman


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: debian-advocacy?

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 07:01:33AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
 
 I suspect any list with offtopic in its name will get ignored when there
 is a large number of people want to say something about a specific topic.
 
 Would a list whose address was debian-user-newfeatures be more attractive?

Are you volunteering to keep the announcements up to date? 

 How about shorter and as explicit - debian-user-support?

It would be a nightmare changing it everywhere. 

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread The Wanderer

On 10/13/2014 at 05:52 PM, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

 On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 08:40:38AM +1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
 
 Vocal minority, looking after the interests of many more whom will
 be yet to learn of the facts at some stage.
 
 Don't confuse facts and opinions. You seem to be labouring under the
 assumption that your opinions are right and everyone who disagrees,
 or is yet to get involved, is misinformed.

I read that as him referring not to the people who are misinformed but
to the ones who are presently uninformed, as in they don't even know
that a transition is coming up - the people who probably wouldn't even
notice the systemd transition happening unless they personally
encountered a bug resulting from it.

Those people certainly have yet to learn of the facts, regardless of
what those facts are.

 but otherwise have no reason to think something could change so
 drastically with Debian stable release. ;-)
 
 It's not yet clear that the init system *will* change for upgrades.

Have there been developments on that front?

The last discussion of that topic of which I'm aware was under bug
762194, which has seen no comments since September 21st. There has been
ancillary or otherwise related discussion in bug 746578, and discussion
of an upgrade-time transition prompt in bug 747535, neither of which has
seen much activity in a similar time-frame.

The last state of discussion I remember from bug 762194 was that the
status quo, in which the transition will happen automatically due to
existing package dependencies, was still prevailing. Since no further
comments have been made there, I would presume that that remains
unchanged. Is that not correct?

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: debian-advocacy?

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 08:47:28AM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:
 
 Why?  Help and discussion among users of Debian seems like a perfectly
 good description and scope, of long standing.  

That is true, but look at the confusion it causes --- it gives the
impression that anything can be discussed because it is Debian users
discussing it.

By emphasizing that debian-user is for support then the off-topic list
will be better utilised for discussion.

 (Also note, apropos discussion of moderation - the list page states 
 This list is not moderated; posting is allowed by anyone.)

I thought there was a difference between a closed list (only subscribers
can post) and a moderated list (each post is scrutinised for
eligibility) --- or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread John Hasler

Chris Bannister writes:
 I thought there was a difference between a closed list (only
 subscribers can post) and a moderated list (each post is scrutinised
 for eligibility) --- or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

This list is evidently open and mechanically moderated.  Anyone can try
to post but some users and/or subjects may be silently dropped.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: debian-advocacy?

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 09:31:19AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
 Chris Bannister writes:
  I thought there was a difference between a closed list (only
  subscribers can post) and a moderated list (each post is scrutinised
  for eligibility) --- or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
 
 This list is evidently open and mechanically moderated.  Anyone can try
 to post but some users and/or subjects may be silently dropped.

I was responding to the list is not moderated; anyone can post
statement. But I see where this is heading. 

If someone posts a post and a moderator drops it, is it still posted?
I reckon it is. I think of post as sending the message off, not posting
it on the wall, just like posting a letter.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread The Wanderer

On 10/14/2014 at 10:53 AM, Chris Bannister wrote:

 On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 09:31:19AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
 
 Chris Bannister writes:
 
 I thought there was a difference between a closed list (only
 subscribers can post) and a moderated list (each post is
 scrutinised for eligibility) --- or have I got the wrong end of
 the stick?
 
 This list is evidently open and mechanically moderated.  Anyone can
 try to post but some users and/or subjects may be silently
 dropped.
 
 I was responding to the list is not moderated; anyone can post
 statement. But I see where this is heading.
 
 If someone posts a post and a moderator drops it, is it still
 posted? I reckon it is. I think of post as sending the message off,
 not posting it on the wall, just like posting a letter.

Given that the posting terminology appears to date back to, and AIUI
derives from, the old dial-in BBSes - that is, bulletin-board
systems[1] - which predated Usenet, I rather suspect the posting it on
the wall interpretation is the original one.

Which doesn't say anything about whether it's the more common one
nowadays, but it's certainly the one I've been using.


[1] I typo'ed that as bulletin-board systemd...

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: debian-advocacy?

On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 03:53:48AM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
 On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 09:31:19AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
  Chris Bannister writes:
   I thought there was a difference between a closed list (only
   subscribers can post) and a moderated list (each post is scrutinised
   for eligibility) --- or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
  
  This list is evidently open and mechanically moderated.  Anyone can try
  to post but some users and/or subjects may be silently dropped.
 
 I was responding to the list is not moderated; anyone can post
 statement. But I see where this is heading. 
 
 If someone posts a post and a moderator drops it, is it still posted?
 I reckon it is. I think of post as sending the message off, not posting
 it on the wall, just like posting a letter.

On second thoughts, this seems wrong. The analogy falls apart here,
otherwise only subscribers can post doesn't make sense.

I still maintain there is a huge difference between a closed list and a
moderated list, though.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Miles Fidelman


Chris Bannister wrote:

On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 03:53:48AM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 09:31:19AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:

Chris Bannister writes:

I thought there was a difference between a closed list (only
subscribers can post) and a moderated list (each post is scrutinised
for eligibility) --- or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

This list is evidently open and mechanically moderated.  Anyone can try
to post but some users and/or subjects may be silently dropped.

I was responding to the list is not moderated; anyone can post
statement. But I see where this is heading.

If someone posts a post and a moderator drops it, is it still posted?
I reckon it is. I think of post as sending the message off, not posting
it on the wall, just like posting a letter.

On second thoughts, this seems wrong. The analogy falls apart here,
otherwise only subscribers can post doesn't make sense.

I still maintain there is a huge difference between a closed list and a
moderated list, though.



Speaking as one who administers a list server (sympa), and follows the 
technology - at least at the server level there is a very clear 
distinction between:
- membership: open, requires approval, closed, and various other 
combinations;
- posting policy: fully open (anyone, from anywhere), subscribers only, 
subscribers un-moderated/non-subscribers moderated, all moderated, etc.

Each is typically separately configurable

As I read the debian-user list description, what I surmise is;
- open membership (anyone can join)
- unclear posting policy:
--- says it's open (anyone can post) - but haven't actually tested 
whether it really means subscribers-only (note, some Debian lists are 
actually fully open - for example debian-boot is both a list and the 
contact address for the installer team)
--- says it's unmoderated, but, as some have pointed out, there seems to 
be some moderation going on - with no documentation or acknowledgement 
of what policies are applied


Miles Fidelman



--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Anders Wegge Keller

On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 22:43:48 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:

 There's -offtopic (see my .sig), but apparently the anti-systemd crowd 
 wants an audience :(

 Stop your condescending tone, and make your self useful by reading a book
about change mangament. I don't know who you are or what your merits might
be. I couldn't care less right now. You just need to stop. Right now!

 If your only contribution is to tell people off, the whole project would be
better off without you. So let me talk to an adult who can tell me where the
peons can have a place to vent the frustrations, while the developers try to
find a consensus off how to present the news that there is no other way.

 I'll never hear from you again, as you are clearly getting a kick out of
fuelling the flames.

-- 
//Wegge


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Tuesday 14 October 2014 17:11:31 Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
 On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 22:43:48 +0300

 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
  There's -offtopic (see my .sig), but apparently the anti-systemd crowd
  wants an audience :(

  Stop your condescending tone, and make your self useful by reading a book
 about change mangament. I don't know who you are or what your merits might
 be. I couldn't care less right now. You just need to stop. Right now!

  If your only contribution is to tell people off, the whole project would
 be better off without you. So let me talk to an adult who can tell me where
 the peons can have a place to vent the frustrations, while the developers
 try to find a consensus off how to present the news that there is no other
 way.

  I'll never hear from you again, as you are clearly getting a kick out of
 fuelling the flames.

This to one of our best and most measured contributors.  It's enough to make 
one weep.

Lisi


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Anders Wegge Keller

On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 17:33:55 +0100
Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:

 This to one of our best and most measured contributors.  It's enough to
 make one weep.

 He could have been the pope. His attitude is part of the problem, not the
solution. If you have read the book about change management, you know what
I'm saying. If not, go and read it, before you dig yourself into the same
hole.

 I do not want to hear from someone acting out of a misplaced sense of
loyalty. I want someone who actually is capable of seeing why elitism isn't
going to save Debian in this case, to come forward, and create a place where
the issue can be hashed out.

-- 
//Wegge


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread John Hasler

Miles Fidelman writes:
 - unclear posting policy:
 --- says it's open (anyone can post) - but haven't actually tested whether
 it really means subscribers-only (note, some Debian lists are actually
 fully open - for example debian-boot is both a list and the contact address
 for the installer team)

debian-user is definitely open.  Almost all Debian lists are.

 --- says it's unmoderated, but, as some have pointed out, there seems to be
 some moderation going on - with no documentation or acknowledgement of what
 policies are applied

Moderation usually means that some natural person reads and approves
or disapproves every item.  That's clearly not the case here.  What the
actual policy is, as you say, unclear.  It appears that the listmasters
occasionally block a poster and occasionally block a thread.  This may
have been duscussed on some obscure (but public) list I don't know
about.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Scott Ferguson

On 15/10/14 03:11, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
 On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 22:43:48 +0300
 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 There's -offtopic (see my .sig), but apparently the anti-systemd crowd 
 wants an audience :(
 
  Stop your condescending tone,


-88

  If your only contribution is to tell people off,

And you are doing what? Not eating your own dog food?

  the whole project would be
 better off without you. So let me talk to an adult who can tell me where the
 peons can have a place to vent the frustrations, while the developers try to
 find a consensus off how to present the news that there is no other way.

Given that your only contribution to the list is outright and offensive
hypocrisy why should you not be rightfully dismissed as an abusive and
offensive poster who contributes nothing to the subject. I do know you
and your work - and sadly in one post you've changed your name to mud.

-88


Presuming of course that this is actually Anders having a very bad day,
not some deranged troll trying to smear his reputation.



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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Curt

On 2014-10-14, John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:

 Moderation usually means that some natural person reads and approves
 or disapproves every item.  That's clearly not the case here.  What the
 actual policy is, as you say, unclear.  It appears that the listmasters
 occasionally block a poster and occasionally block a thread.  This may
 have been duscussed on some obscure (but public) list I don't know
 about.

It seems to me someone in authority, or privy to the secret thoughts of
the authorities, said once that, for instance, posts to hot threads
might be delayed in order to cool those hot puppies down.

Given the number of retarded posts we've seen in the last couple of weeks, you 
might think things would be cooled off by now, but no.


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Ric Moore


On 10/14/2014 12:40 PM, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:


  I do not want to hear from someone acting out of a misplaced sense of
loyalty. I want someone who actually is capable of seeing why elitism isn't
going to save Debian in this case, to come forward, and create a place where
the issue can be hashed out.


The entire unwashed gospel of the entire Debian Project is that either 
you are a classified member or you are not. If not, you are a 
volunteer who made the choice to install Debian. As a volunteer you have 
exactly one right; to do nothing. Otherwise, you have no other rights 
and the members of Debian owe you nothing. Nothing at all.


So, it's not a matter of elitism, it's a matter of the rest of us 
having zero say-so by never applying for full membership. You are free 
to do that. Then you can ~earn~ the right to be, as you call it, elite.


Until then, you have no beef and are not entitled to have one. Yet, 
Andrei has earned that right. You haven't, so you are not his peer. 
Neither am I, nor most posting to this list. As they say in the hood, 
If you want respect you have to give respect. Debian, and it's 
members, owe us exactly nothing. That is the way of it. :/ Ric




--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Richard Owlett


Anders Wegge Keller wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 22:43:48 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:


There's -offtopic (see my .sig), but apparently the anti-systemd crowd
wants an audience :(


  Stop your condescending tone,


CAREFUL, you insert foot-in-mouth past clavicle


...  and make your self useful


Have you surveyed his other posts?


by reading a book
about change mangament. I don't know who you are or what your merits might
be. I couldn't care less right now. You just need to stop. Right now!

  If your only contribution is to tell people off, ...


If you could have been bothered to research his posts.

He gives relevant publicly posted answers to questions.
I have even publicly disagreed with him.
I continue to value his input.


... the whole project would be better off without you.


*NO*

[snip vituperation]



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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 15:17:27 -0500
Richard Owlett rowl...@cloud85.net wrote:

 Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
  On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 22:43:48 +0300
  Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  There's -offtopic (see my .sig), but apparently the anti-systemd
  crowd wants an audience :(
 
Stop your condescending tone,
 
 CAREFUL, you insert foot-in-mouth past clavicle

:-)

Now wait a minute Richard. His tone *was* condescending, but of course,
he was replying to somebody who dissed the list in an insulting way.

 
  ...  and make your self useful
 
 Have you surveyed his other posts?

He condescends a lot, and often gets snarky with me, and I deserve the
snark only some of the time. And of course, the reply to *him* was
snarky too. And I'm not being angel-nice right now.

All that being said, as much as he's snarked at me in the past, yeah, I
value his opinion, even when he's calling me wrong (in not the
nicest possible way), which of course is why I haven't filtered him.

 
  by reading a book
  about change mangament. I don't know who you are or what your
  merits might be. I couldn't care less right now. You just need to
  stop. Right now!
 
If your only contribution is to tell people off, ...
 
 If you could have been bothered to research his posts.
 
 He gives relevant publicly posted answers to questions.
That's true.


 I have even publicly disagreed with him.
 I continue to value his input.

Same with me.

 
  ... the whole project would be better off without you.
 
 *NO*

Agreed. Andrei's OK.

I know this impending systemd thing is bringing out the worst in me,
and I think it's bringing out the worst in a lot of us.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 18:11:31 +0200
Anders Wegge Keller we...@wegge.dk wrote:

 
 ... make your self useful by reading a
 book about change mangament.

Without in any way endorsing or criticizing anything else that's
happened in this thread, I'd like to ask what are some relatively simple
change management books you'd recommend, especially in light of the
fact that a lot of us want to change the PID1 software one way or
another?

I have a feeling such a book might make *me* more useful.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread s. keeling

Anders Wegge Keller we...@wegge.dk:
  On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 17:33:55 +0100
  Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  This to one of our best and most measured contributors.  It's enough to
  make one weep.
 
   He could have been the pope. His attitude is part of the problem, not the

I didn't think that at all.  I do think your attitude is.  I thought
your reply to him was damned insulting.  WTF do you think you are
telling him (anyone) off like that?

   I do not want to hear from someone acting out of a misplaced sense of
  loyalty. I want someone who actually is capable of seeing why elitism isn't
  going to save Debian in this case, to come forward, and create a place where
  the issue can be hashed out.

Seen this?  https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd

btw, I've no sticks in this fire.  About all I know about this
controversy is Linus saying (paraphrased) he's got no real problem
with it and perhaps some things stick around due to that being the way
it's always been done.  This may or may not be one of them, I don't
know.

Note, you can't expect to change anyone's opinion by insulting them.  I
know that doesn't work on me, at least.


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread s. keeling

Curt cu...@free.fr:
 
  Given the number of retarded posts we've seen in the last couple of
  weeks, you might think things would be cooled off by now, but no.

This's DU.  This sort of thing is expected, even welcomed.  People
expressing passionate opinions wrt their choice of software?  Great!

Consider the alternative (Crickets ...).

I often wonder if the old saw, Making popcorn! was invented here.


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Bob Holtzman

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 06:11:31PM +0200, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
 On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 22:43:48 +0300
 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  There's -offtopic (see my .sig), but apparently the anti-systemd crowd 
  wants an audience :(
 
  Stop your condescending tone, and make your self useful by reading a book
 about change mangament. I don't know who you are or what your merits might
 be. I couldn't care less right now. You just need to stop. Right now!
 
  If your only contribution is to tell people off, the whole project would be
 better off without you. So let me talk to an adult who can tell me where the
 peons can have a place to vent the frustrations, while the developers try to
 find a consensus off how to present the news that there is no other way.
 
  I'll never hear from you again, as you are clearly getting a kick out of
 fuelling the flames.

If you would bother to get off your butt and look at the archives you
would see that Andrei is one of the most knowledgeable, prolific, and
helpful contributors to this group.

-- 
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Giant intergalactic brain-sucking hyperbacteria 
came to Earth to rape our women and create a race 
of mindless zombies.  Look!  It's working!


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Re: debian-advocacy?

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 06:40:01PM +0200, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
 On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 17:33:55 +0100
 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  This to one of our best and most measured contributors.  It's enough to
  make one weep.
 
  He could have been the pope. His attitude is part of the problem, not the
 solution. If you have read the book about change management, you know what
 I'm saying. If not, go and read it, before you dig yourself into the same
 hole.

You're the one holding the shovel! Please be more respectful.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-14 Thread Andrew McGlashan

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On 14/10/2014 11:01 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:
 I suspect any list with offtopic in its name will get ignored when
 there is a large number of people want to say something about a specific
 topic.

Absolutely, it helps hide problems under the rug, so to speak.
Definitely not effective or worthwhile.

 Would a list whose address was debian-user-newfeatures be more
 attractive?

I would think that debian-user should get proper status as a real user
discussion list as it is and has been used for since, forever  

And requests for support should be diverted to debian-user-support as
you suggest ... I am not so sure about debian-user-newfeatures as I
think that should be part of debian-user, especially if
debian-user-support is implemented.

 So why, exactly, is the design philosophy and architecture of the Debian
 ecosystem not a legitimate topic for discussion among Debian users?

 The description of the debian-user list seems to be a misnomer. Perhaps
 it should read Frontline support for users of the Debian Operating
 System.?

That's a problem in itself.  There should be room for real discussion as
is taking place here on the debian-user list, without fear of having
posts filtered.

 How about shorter and as explicit - debian-user-support?
 
 I'm a new user with little systems background who finds Squeeze LTS will
 suit my needs for foreseeable future. I'll likely skip Jessie
 completely. Dust should have settled by then.

I'm not so sure that squeeze-lts will be supported well enough for long
enough.  Hopefully wheezy gets good support with a wheezy-lts.

A.
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debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Anders Wegge Keller

 It seems that there's a lot of controversy about the SysV-replacement that
should not be named. Most, if not all of the arguments for, as well as
against seem to be of a philosophical, rather than stringent technichnical
nature. As such, they are probably not suited for this list. So my question
as a relative newcomer to the Debian ecosystem is if there is an -advocacy
list, where the philosophical differences can be beaten into the ground,
while keeping this list at a more factual level?

 If not, where do I propose the creation of such a list?

-- 
//Wegge


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Cindy-Sue Causey

On 10/13/14, Anders Wegge Keller we...@wegge.dk wrote:
  It seems that there's a lot of controversy about the SysV-replacement that
 should not be named. Most, if not all of the arguments for, as well as
 against seem to be of a philosophical, rather than stringent technichnical
 nature. As such, they are probably not suited for this list. So my question
 as a relative newcomer to the Debian ecosystem is if there is an -advocacy
 list, where the philosophical differences can be beaten into the ground,
 while keeping this list at a more factual level?

  If not, where do I propose the creation of such a list?


At first quick glance over, didn't find advocacy per se (by name),
but did see a possibility in debian-publicity:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-publicity/

Complete index of *our* Debian lists is... listed at:

https://lists.debian.org/completeindex.html

Hope that helps at least a little..

Cindy :)

-- 
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* runs with duct tape *


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Steve Litt

On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 19:45:03 +0200
Anders Wegge Keller we...@wegge.dk wrote:

  It seems that there's a lot of controversy about the
 SysV-replacement that should not be named. Most, if not all of the
 arguments for, as well as against seem to be of a philosophical,
 rather than stringent technichnical nature. As such, they are
 probably not suited for this list. 

The preceding sentence is not at all true. If Red Hat is using Debian
as its proxy in monopolizing Linux, and morphing Linux into something
completely different, this is the business of rank and file Debian
users.

 So my question as a relative
 newcomer to the Debian ecosystem is if there is an -advocacy list,
 where the philosophical differences can be beaten into the ground,
 while keeping this list at a more factual level?

You're not the first to propose such divide and conquer. Without a lot
of stringent moderation, it's not going to work.

  If not, where do I propose the creation of such a list?

It already exists: http://www.freelists.org/archive/modular-debian/

You can subscribe at http://www.freelists.org/list/modular-debian

Posting there does not preclude expressing systemd displeasure here.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: debian-advocacy?

On Lu, 13 oct 14, 19:45:03, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
  It seems that there's a lot of controversy about the SysV-replacement that
 should not be named. Most, if not all of the arguments for, as well as
 against seem to be of a philosophical, rather than stringent technichnical
 nature. As such, they are probably not suited for this list. So my question
 as a relative newcomer to the Debian ecosystem is if there is an -advocacy
 list, where the philosophical differences can be beaten into the ground,
 while keeping this list at a more factual level?
 
  If not, where do I propose the creation of such a list?

There's -offtopic (see my .sig), but apparently the anti-systemd crowd 
wants an audience :(

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: debian-advocacy?

On Lu, 13 oct 14, 14:56:38, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:
 
 At first quick glance over, didn't find advocacy per se (by name),
 but did see a possibility in debian-publicity:
 
 https://lists.debian.org/debian-publicity/

Please don't, that list is for publicity of Debian (writing the Debian 
newsletter, just to give an example), not for philosophical debates.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: debian-advocacy?

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On 14/10/2014 6:43 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
 On Lu, 13 oct 14, 19:45:03, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
 It seems that there's a lot of controversy about the
 SysV-replacement that should not be named. Most, if not all of
 the arguments for, as well as against seem to be of a
 philosophical, rather than stringent technichnical nature. As
 such, they are probably not suited for this list. So my question 
 as a relative newcomer to the Debian ecosystem is if there is an
 -advocacy list, where the philosophical differences can be beaten
 into the ground, while keeping this list at a more factual
 level?
 
 If not, where do I propose the creation of such a list?
 
 There's -offtopic (see my .sig), but apparently the anti-systemd
 crowd wants an audience :(

That list is basically irrelevant, no traffic at all, virtually.  And
yes, the list must have a reasonable audience to be useful.

You cannot see this list here:
 https://lists.debian.org/completeindex.html

But if you go to the following link, it is listed:
  http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo


October has seen just one post on that list, it is completely useless.

It looks like September had 6, 2 of which were spam.  Definitely not
worth following or posting to that list.

A.
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Re: debian-advocacy?

On Ma, 14 oct 14, 06:53:12, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
 
 That list is basically irrelevant, no traffic at all, virtually. 

That only happens because people insist on posting off-topic stuff to 
-user instead of -offtopic.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: debian-advocacy?

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On 14/10/2014 7:18 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
 On Ma, 14 oct 14, 06:53:12, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
 
 That list is basically irrelevant, no traffic at all, virtually.
 
 
 That only happens because people insist on posting off-topic stuff
 to -user instead of -offtopic.

Realistically, this is the /only/ list for such types of communications.

We have filters and threads, so you can easily deal with extra noise
when it comes along.  Most noise, unless it is as major as the systemd
set of concerns, come and go very quickly and aren't at all cause for
concern.

Clearly though, when so many people have strong views against a
decision that they think is wrong, such as something significant as
systemd  well we've just got to deal with it too; there is very
good reason why this list has exploded over systemd and moderation
issues.  And absolutely no other place would suit better for Debian
users and sysadmins.

A.



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Re: debian-advocacy?

On Ma, 14 oct 14, 08:00:46, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
 
 Clearly though, when so many people have strong views against a
 decision that they think is wrong, such as something significant as
 systemd  well we've just got to deal with it too; 

According to https://lists.debian.org/stats/ there are 3286 subscribers 
to this list. This does NOT include all those following the list via 
alternate channels (Gmane, Google Groups, NNTP, etc.)

Without an accurate count I'd say only about 1% (or less) of the 
subscribers are actually participating in these discussion.

In my opinion this is the very definition of vocal minority.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread John Hasler

Andrei POPESCU writes:
 Without an accurate count I'd say only about 1% (or less) of the
 subscribers are actually participating in these discussion.

1% participation in any discussion on a list such as this would be very
large.  Passing a GR to take Debian closed-source and relicense
everything under the Microsoft EULA probably wouldn't get 2% to speak
up. (No, I'm not proposing that nor do I think that it could happen.)
-- 
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Re: debian-advocacy?

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On 14/10/2014 8:32 AM, John Hasler wrote:
 Andrei POPESCU writes:
 Without an accurate count I'd say only about 1% (or less) of the
 subscribers are actually participating in these discussion.
 
 1% participation in any discussion on a list such as this would be very
 large.  Passing a GR to take Debian closed-source and relicense
 everything under the Microsoft EULA probably wouldn't get 2% to speak
 up. (No, I'm not proposing that nor do I think that it could happen.)

Hahaha M$ EULA  I'm sure if they are watching, they'll be laughing
their own heads off over the debacle of systemd for Linux (not just for
Debian).

Yes, of Debian user base, subscribers vs posters, 1% is huge!  We aren't
talking about a hobby project here -- most users are able to deal with
many problems without needing to post to DU list.  Many watch and never
respond.

A.
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Re: debian-advocacy?

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On 14/10/2014 8:19 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
 In my opinion this is the very definition of vocal minority.

Vocal minority, looking after the interests of many more whom will be
yet to learn of the facts at some stage. but otherwise have no
reason to think something could change so drastically with Debian
stable release. ;-)

A.

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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Jonathan Dowland

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 08:40:38AM +1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
 Vocal minority, looking after the interests of many more whom will be
 yet to learn of the facts at some stage.

Don't confuse facts and opinions. You seem to be labouring under the assumption
that your opinions are right and everyone who disagrees, or is yet to get
involved, is misinformed.

 but otherwise have no reason to think something could change so drastically
 with Debian stable release. ;-)

It's not yet clear that the init system *will* change for upgrades.


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Lisi Reisz

Sorry, John.  I clicked reply instead of pressing l.

On Monday 13 October 2014 22:32:15 John Hasler wrote:
 Andrei POPESCU writes:
  Without an accurate count I'd say only about 1% (or less) of the
  subscribers are actually participating in these discussion.

 1% participation in any discussion on a list such as this would be very
 large.  Passing a GR to take Debian closed-source and relicense
 everything under the Microsoft EULA probably wouldn't get 2% to speak
 up. (No, I'm not proposing that nor do I think that it could happen.)

1% would be 33.  I make it thirteen at all regular (I have counted - now I 
wonder why??), fewer who post at all frequently.  So Andrei's less than 1% is 
correct. 

Lisi


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Buntunub

This list is the perfect place for such things. The decision to make Systemd
default in Jessie was done by the Technical Committee, not by general vote,
so I guess it was decided that the whole discussion about Systemd is a bug
because it was relegated to such. This is the mailing list used to discuss
bugs and technical issues, is it not?



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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread David L. Craig

On 14Oct14:0837+1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote:

 On 14/10/2014 8:32 AM, John Hasler wrote:

  Andrei POPESCU writes:

  Without an accurate count I'd say only about 1% (or less) of the
  subscribers are actually participating in these discussion.
  
  1% participation in any discussion on a list such as this would be very
  large.  Passing a GR to take Debian closed-source and relicense
  everything under the Microsoft EULA probably wouldn't get 2% to speak
  up. (No, I'm not proposing that nor do I think that it could happen.)
 
 Hahaha M$ EULA  I'm sure if they are watching, they'll be laughing
 their own heads off over the debacle of systemd for Linux (not just for
 Debian).
 
 Yes, of Debian user base, subscribers vs posters, 1% is huge!  We aren't
 talking about a hobby project here -- most users are able to deal with
 many problems without needing to post to DU list.  Many watch and never
 respond.

And that is good since the traffic of just 1% is more than
many here can bear.  But it is bad because we won't have a
clue what the silent majority thinks until they quietly stop
using Debian or not.  Jessie may need to be widely considered
the Vista of Debian releases before a majority of DDs are
willing to revisit the init default.

The is currently no means to garner meaningful data about
Jessie's approval ratings, which likely means the release
team will, as usual, just guess what will fly.  They've
had an enviable run, to be sure.
-- 
not cent from sell
May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!

Dave_Craig__
So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
 You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
 Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe.
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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Miles Fidelman


Jonathan Dowland wrote:

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 08:40:38AM +1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote:

Vocal minority, looking after the interests of many more whom will be
yet to learn of the facts at some stage.

Don't confuse facts and opinions. You seem to be labouring under the assumption
that your opinions are right and everyone who disagrees, or is yet to get
involved, is misinformed.


but otherwise have no reason to think something could change so drastically
with Debian stable release. ;-)

It's not yet clear that the init system *will* change for upgrades.




Which, by the way, is a central issue:
- will it or won't it change? Along with:
- will users be given a choice between sysvinit and systemd during 
install, or will retaining current configurations become an increasing 
chore?

- will sysvinit continue to be supported or not?
- will sysvinit compatibility be partial or complete?

Perhaps there'd be less heat, if there were more light as too what 
commitments are really being made to backward compatibility. Somehow 
it's all good, and wait and see are not sufficient answers.  Some of 
us have been around the block enough times to see the cliff that lies 
ahead of us, and raise our voices.  Pollyannaish responses are getting 
the responses they deserve.


Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Miles Fidelman


David L. Craig wrote:

On 14Oct14:0837+1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote:


On 14/10/2014 8:32 AM, John Hasler wrote:

Andrei POPESCU writes:

Without an accurate count I'd say only about 1% (or less) of the
subscribers are actually participating in these discussion.

1% participation in any discussion on a list such as this would be very
large.  Passing a GR to take Debian closed-source and relicense
everything under the Microsoft EULA probably wouldn't get 2% to speak
up. (No, I'm not proposing that nor do I think that it could happen.)

Hahaha M$ EULA  I'm sure if they are watching, they'll be laughing
their own heads off over the debacle of systemd for Linux (not just for
Debian).

Yes, of Debian user base, subscribers vs posters, 1% is huge!  We aren't
talking about a hobby project here -- most users are able to deal with
many problems without needing to post to DU list.  Many watch and never
respond.

And that is good since the traffic of just 1% is more than
many here can bear.  But it is bad because we won't have a
clue what the silent majority thinks until they quietly stop
using Debian or not.  Jessie may need to be widely considered
the Vista of Debian releases before a majority of DDs are
willing to revisit the init default.


THAT'S the analogy I was looking for!  Thanks!

Miles


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Brian

On Mon 13 Oct 2014 at 15:07:33 -0700, Buntunub wrote:

 This list is the perfect place for such things. The decision to make Systemd
 default in Jessie was done by the Technical Committee, not by general vote,
 so I guess it was decided that the whole discussion about Systemd is a bug
 because it was relegated to such. This is the mailing list used to discuss
 bugs and technical issues, is it not?

I wanted so much to understand and make sense of what was being said
here but gave up in the end and turned to the comfort of a book on
Quantum Chromodynamics.


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Joel Rees

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk wrote:
 On Mon 13 Oct 2014 at 15:07:33 -0700, Buntunub wrote:

 This list is the perfect place for such things. The decision to make Systemd
 default in Jessie was done by the Technical Committee, not by general vote,
 so I guess it was decided that the whole discussion about Systemd is a bug
 because it was relegated to such. This is the mailing list used to discuss
 bugs and technical issues, is it not?

 I wanted so much to understand and make sense of what was being said
 here but gave up in the end and turned to the comfort of a book on
 Quantum Chromodynamics.

Can I recommend a thesis on analyzing execution paths of critical processes?

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you see conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart,
and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself.


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Steve Litt

On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 23:18:01 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Ma, 14 oct 14, 06:53:12, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
  
  That list is basically irrelevant, no traffic at all, virtually. 
 
 That only happens because people insist on posting off-topic stuff to 
 -user instead of -offtopic.

:s/off-topic/stuff that Andrei deems off-topic/

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Brian

On Tue 14 Oct 2014 at 08:02:28 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:

 On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk wrote:
  On Mon 13 Oct 2014 at 15:07:33 -0700, Buntunub wrote:
 
  This list is the perfect place for such things. The decision to make 
  Systemd
  default in Jessie was done by the Technical Committee, not by general vote,
  so I guess it was decided that the whole discussion about Systemd is a bug
  because it was relegated to such. This is the mailing list used to discuss
  bugs and technical issues, is it not?
 
  I wanted so much to understand and make sense of what was being said
  here but gave up in the end and turned to the comfort of a book on
  Quantum Chromodynamics.
 
 Can I recommend a thesis on analyzing execution paths of critical processes?

I'd try anything if it brought enlightenment to the post I responded to.


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Joel Rees

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk wrote:
On Tue 14 Oct 2014 at 08:02:28 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk wrote:
On Mon 13 Oct 2014 at 15:07:33 -0700, Buntunub wrote:

This list is the perfect place for such things. The decision to make
Systemd
default in Jessie was done by the Technical Committee, not by general
vote,
so I guess it was decided that the whole discussion about Systemd is a bug
because it was relegated to such. This is the mailing list used to discuss
bugs and technical issues, is it not?

I wanted so much to understand and make sense of what was being said
here but gave up in the end and turned to the comfort of a book on
Quantum Chromodynamics.

Can I recommend a thesis on analyzing execution paths of critical processes?

I'd try anything if it brought enlightenment to the post I responded to.

Well, that would be another topic.

But understanding execution path analysis might help understand some
of the underlying reasons for these kinds of posts.

If you aren't familiar with the topic of execution paths, these
wikipedia articles will get you started on the topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profiling_%28computer_programming%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_engineering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worst-case_execution_time

I thought I had some theses handy on the topic, but they discuss tools
for analysis and assume understanding the topic. One is

ftp://ftp.cs.wisc.edu/pub/paradyn/technical_papers/CritPath-ICDCS1988.pdf

--
Joel Rees

Be careful when you see conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart,
and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself.

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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Marty


On 10/13/2014 07:14 PM, Brian wrote:

On Tue 14 Oct 2014 at 08:02:28 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:


On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk wrote:
 On Mon 13 Oct 2014 at 15:07:33 -0700, Buntunub wrote:

 This list is the perfect place for such things. The decision to make Systemd
 default in Jessie was done by the Technical Committee, not by general vote,
 so I guess it was decided that the whole discussion about Systemd is a bug
 because it was relegated to such. This is the mailing list used to discuss
 bugs and technical issues, is it not?

 I wanted so much to understand and make sense of what was being said
 here but gave up in the end and turned to the comfort of a book on
 Quantum Chromodynamics.

Can I recommend a thesis on analyzing execution paths of critical processes?


I'd try anything if it brought enlightenment to the post I responded to.


I think he's saying systemd is one huge bug, but you turned to physics 
because you thought it might actually be a Hindenburg, and then got 
gently steered back to traditional computer science for right answer.



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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Chris Bannister

On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:45:03PM +0200, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
  It seems that there's a lot of controversy about the SysV-replacement that
 should not be named. Most, if not all of the arguments for, as well as
 against seem to be of a philosophical, rather than stringent technichnical
 nature. As such, they are probably not suited for this list. So my question
 as a relative newcomer to the Debian ecosystem is if there is an -advocacy
 list, where the philosophical differences can be beaten into the ground,
 while keeping this list at a more factual level?
 
  If not, where do I propose the creation of such a list?

There already is one, but unfortunately no one is using it. :(
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: debian-advocacy?

2014-10-13 Thread Miles Fidelman


Chris Bannister wrote:

On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:45:03PM +0200, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:

  It seems that there's a lot of controversy about the SysV-replacement that
should not be named. Most, if not all of the arguments for, as well as
against seem to be of a philosophical, rather than stringent technichnical
nature. As such, they are probably not suited for this list. So my question
as a relative newcomer to the Debian ecosystem is if there is an -advocacy
list, where the philosophical differences can be beaten into the ground,
while keeping this list at a more factual level?

  If not, where do I propose the creation of such a list?

There already is one, but unfortunately no one is using it. :(
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic



So why, exactly, is the design philosophy and architecture of the Debian 
ecosystem not a legitimate topic for discussion among Debian users?


Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-22 Thread Paul Johnson

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Pigeon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 That's weird - that Knoppix has problems with 3Com network cards but
 boot-floppies can cope OK. I like these cards because they Just Work.

I tend to prefer the RTL-8139 based cards because everything supports
them.  They're pretty much plug and play in any environment.
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFBeLnTUzgNqloQMwcRAk6TAKDkJZ8ez95wHMsfvDb70dPkhGqm4ACfW/rK
h/yPi3lkiLY7BYi+ZruDozA=
=coJW
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-22 Thread Clive Menzies

On (21/10/04 14:59), s. keeling wrote:
 Incoming from William Ballard:
  On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 12:16:21PM -0700, Gilbert, Joseph wrote:
   session and found that KDE had autodetected my sound card.  You may want to
   have them give Sarge a try.  It may be a lot easier than even you suspect...
  
  This isn't a technical thing, so much as a motivation thing.  I actually 
 
 Exactly.  I'd guess the best you could do is set them up with a dual
 boot system, and beg them to try it for a week.  Give them Evo for
 mail, and OO.  You better ensure everything works correctly out of
 the box, and is secured, or they'll just end up with yet another
 insecure and unstable platform.  You'll probably need to consider data
 migration issues too.  How to get their mail from Windows to Linux and
 back again?  You're also going to be their sysadmin for a while; do
 you have remote access to their machines?  Are they going to trust you
 to be root on their machines?
 
 Maybe you should wait until the next disaster befalls them (shouldn't
 be long).  They may then be better motivated to accept the challenge.

Have a look at Xandros 2.0 Open edition.  It's Debian based and seems to
auto-detect most things.  It is a halfway house between windows and
debian and we installed it on a few machines with some success.  One of the
great things is that it mounts the windows drives so that you can see
them from Xandros.

Regards

Clive


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Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-22 Thread Andy Firman

On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 03:28:05PM -0400, William Ballard wrote:
 And I spent a month getting all Debian's eyecandy and hardware 
 acceleration working.  And mutt was ridiculous at first compared to 
 Outlook.  

You can say that again!!!  It is funny as hell to look back at how 
foreign it felt getting started with Linux and progams like Mutt.  Hah!
Now I can't live without Mutt.

 Now of course, I see the world very differently

Me toobut I am tired of preaching about the beauty and freedom
of using Linux, and am confident it will continue to spread slowly
but surely.  No question in my mind.

  but I just don't know how to make someone else motivated to make 
 this leap of faith.

Well you can do what I did a few months ago.  My brother needed a new 
computer, so I told him about getting a Dell Poweredge with 
no operating system.  (no Microsft tax..score)
You can get a Poweredge for about $300 shipped with rebate and I have
bought at least 10 of them in the past.  They make great workstations.

Anyhow, I made a deal with him and he did about 8 hours of carpentry
work on my house, and I installed Debian on the Poweredge for him.
Got him a beautiful KDE desktop with audio, networking, printing, etc

He LOVES it!!!

He learned how to forward port 22 on his Linksys router so I can ssh
in and take care of business.  I am now 300 miles away from him.
Just got his Kodak digital camera working for him via command like with ssh.

He loves the feeling of browsing the repository, picking out games and 
educational tools for his kids, and having me install with apt-get.

He loves knowing that spyware is not getting installed with the 
freeware software.  He loves not having to worry about spyware and
viruses and browser hijacks with IE.  He loves Firefox and Thunderbird.

Now he is bragging about it to all the other Cops at the Police
Department and they all want Linux desktops now.

Linux does not have the $Billions in marketing money that MS has,
but stories like mine happen every day around the world, and that
is why I am confident that the leap of faith you ask about,
will happen slowly and surely.

Andy


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Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-22 Thread Paul Smith

%% Andy Firman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  af He loves the feeling of browsing the repository, picking out games
  af and educational tools for his kids, and having me install with
  af apt-get.

Why do you have to install it?  Put Synaptic onto his system, then he
can install anything he wants by himself, pointy-clicky.

All the games and educational tools I've seen just install with no setup
or config needed.

-- 
---
 Paul D. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]   HASMAT--HA Software Mthds  Tools
 Please remain calm...I may be mad, but I am a professional. --Mad Scientist
---
   These are my opinions---Nortel Networks takes no responsibility for them.


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Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-22 Thread Jim Hall

William Ballard wrote:
My brother in law and nephew are above-average with computer skills but 
not C programmers.  Both are resistant to trying the Knoppix CD I burned 
for them because I told them it's going to be really hard for them to 
get their sound card or network card or what have you working -- I 
didn't lie to them.

I just can't get them interested in Linux because they just can't get 
motivated to switch or even dual boot -- even though their computers are 
totally infested with Spyware.  Nephew can't go anywhere on the 
internet, he just works around it.

I'm just gonna give up on them.  Should everyone switch?


IMHO, no, not everyone should switch. I also have dealt with people like 
them. I've concluded that they are under the influence of the Redmond 
Syndrome. As we all know, this is an especially virulent condition that 
warps the part of the brain that deals with realistic thinking. I refuse 
to be an enabler, but only they can break their chains. We can only look 
on with pity and compassion.

Jim
PS: Sorry about the double post, I mixed up my replies.
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Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-22 Thread Jim Hall

William Ballard wrote:
On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 01:05:04PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
Actually, you did (but not deliberately).  Knoppix (from at least this
year) gets both up and running automagically.  Get them the newest
Knoppix, and next time you're over there to fix their Windows system
again, throw Knoppix in and let them have at it.

Not true: neither the soundcard nor the network card were detected 
automatically.  I think his network card was a 3com 3c59x or some 
permutation of those letters.  There's a common variety and a less 
common variety.  I googled whatever it was plus +debian and found out 
some completely non-intuitive driver you could substitute for it, and 
why Knoppix didn't support it out of box.  Never could quite figure out 
what the issue was with Alsa.

Of course I could have set there and dinked with it until it worked, but 
that's what I told them they'd have to do and they don't want to do it.

They're still stuck in that just run setup.exe from the vendor's 
website mindset.



Hardware in Linux is really no different than in Win or Mac. If it's 
made to work with the OS, it will probably just work. If a manufacturer 
intended a product to be Win only, it may be a lot of work (or more than 
it's worth) to get it to work in Linux. More and more hardware is cross 
platform. Will it cost money to replace those cards? Yes. If they don't 
want to (or can't) spend money, then they have the option of spending 
time. The probability of getting hardware to work in Linux is high, even 
if sometimes it's not automatic. That's one of the beautiful things 
about Linux we have going for us. Try getting something to work in 
Windoze when there is no vendor's website.

Jim
PS: Sorry about the double post, I mixed up my replies.
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Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-22 Thread Arias Hung

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Andy Firman wrote:

 Now he is bragging about it to all the other Cops at the Police
 Department and they all want Linux desktops now.

I thought the subject implied that they had lives too.


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Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-22 Thread Ralph Katz

On 10/21/04 15:20, William Ballard wrote:
My brother in law and nephew are above-average with computer skills
but not C programmers.  Both are resistant to trying the Knoppix CD I
burned for them because I told them it's going to be really hard for
them to get their sound card or network card or what have you working
-- I didn't lie to them.
I just can't get them interested in Linux because they just can't get
 motivated to switch or even dual boot -- even though their computers
are totally infested with Spyware.  Nephew can't go anywhere on the 
internet, he just works around it.

I'm just gonna give up on them.  Should everyone switch?

That was me one year ago, except I was adept enough to use Spybot search
 destroy, zonealarm firewall, and anti-virus s/w so I had no spyware.
What pushed me into the Linux camp?  A strong advocate who installed 
Debian testing/unstable for me.  After some initial instruction and 
coaching (tab-completion is your friend, use man command, etc) I was 
hooked!

But it's not for someone who resists change or who can't handle making 
choices.  But you know that!

You can tell them about my experience, and that in my daily use for a 
year, the system has never crashed.  Good-bye blue screen of death.  No 
viruses.  No spyware.  Easy upgrades...  You know the rest.

It's amazing that relatively few people understand the revolution that 
is taking place with the open-source concept and the debian 
implementation.  But it's the experience of using the s/w that opens the 
eyes!

Regards.
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[OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-21 Thread William Ballard

My brother in law and nephew are above-average with computer skills but 
not C programmers.  Both are resistant to trying the Knoppix CD I burned 
for them because I told them it's going to be really hard for them to 
get their sound card or network card or what have you working -- I 
didn't lie to them.

I just can't get them interested in Linux because they just can't get 
motivated to switch or even dual boot -- even though their computers are 
totally infested with Spyware.  Nephew can't go anywhere on the 
internet, he just works around it.

I'm just gonna give up on them.  Should everyone switch?


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RE: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-21 Thread Gilbert, Joseph

See my earlier post regarding the Sarge install.  I installed it as a
desktop workstation.  X-windows worked fine (but I will have to do some more
work to get the proper Xserver for my card installed).  I logged in to a KDE
session and found that KDE had autodetected my sound card.  You may want to
have them give Sarge a try.  It may be a lot easier than even you suspect...
keep in mind, that is a may.  :-)

Joe Gilbert

-Original Message-
From: William Ballard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 12:11 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives


My brother in law and nephew are above-average with computer skills but 
not C programmers.  Both are resistant to trying the Knoppix CD 
I burned 
for them because I told them it's going to be really hard for them to 
get their sound card or network card or what have you working -- I 
didn't lie to them.

I just can't get them interested in Linux because they just can't get 
motivated to switch or even dual boot -- even though their 
computers are 
totally infested with Spyware.  Nephew can't go anywhere on the 
internet, he just works around it.

I'm just gonna give up on them.  Should everyone switch?


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Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-21 Thread William Ballard

On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 12:16:21PM -0700, Gilbert, Joseph wrote:
 session and found that KDE had autodetected my sound card.  You may want to
 have them give Sarge a try.  It may be a lot easier than even you suspect...
 keep in mind, that is a may.  :-)

This isn't a technical thing, so much as a motivation thing.  I actually 
remember the 3-4 years I was aware of things like apt-get and Debian 
and Microsoft Security bugs and just couldn't be bothered to switch.  
I remember exactly what went through my mind: (1) I already know how to 
do cool things, it's scary to stop doing the cool things I already know 
how to do; (2) even if it's cool, why should I work so hard when I'm 
already cool and know how to run things like CygWin?; (3) why don't them 
wierd Linux people just get a job like me and get an MSDN subscription; 
I've got all the stuff I need for free; why do I care?

And I spent a month getting all Debian's eyecandy and hardware 
acceleration working.  And mutt was ridiculous at first compared to 
Outlook.  Now of course, I see the world very differently, but I just 
don't know how to make someone else motivated to make this leap of 
faith.

Of course they'll like it -- but they just need to be nudged.  And I 
don't want to piss them off by making them do something they don't want 
to do.


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RE: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-21 Thread Gilbert, Joseph

Totally makes sense all you said.

I have continued to be a primary Windows user with little thought of
changing over to using a Unix workstation, even though I have had them
before and am familiar with a lot of the trappings and what can and can't be
done.  I viewed my approach as pretty powerful since I was able to utilize
the strengths of both platforms and minimize weaknesses.

Only now, am I really considering migrating completely away from Windows.
This is for two main reasons.  

A) Not just the security issues of a windows environment (any piece of
software is likely to have exploitable bugs) but MS's handlings of these
issues and the problems that occur when trying to patch your system.  

B) There are more than enough tools available in the open source environment
that there are options for all of the critical apps that I use frequently
that are actually quality choices.  The only time I should need to boot into
Windows is when working with a vendor or content provider that has not
bothered to make sure that their site or software works on all platforms.

I have made the decision to stop updating my XP system automatically.  I am
very leary of SP2.  I know, as a system administrator, that an unpatched
system is going to bite you big sooner or later.  So, in my eyes, the option
of migrating over to Linux and getting acquainted with all new applications
and rebuilding the way I work is much more attactive and has more long term
viability than trying to maintain my various Windows machines.

These same issues really apply to everyone who uses Microsoft products.  In
order to survive, Microsoft is going to have reduce the cost and worry
associated with keeping a windows box up to date and also provide the fixes
necessary to keep them up to date.  Despite their announcements that
security was going to be on the forefront for them, their implementations
have been clumsy and heavy handed.

As the Linux workstation grows in popularity, which it will, people's
evaluation of the equation between cost of migration vs. hassle of dealing
with Microsoft will tip. 

It will be a bit of a sales job to get people to see the dangers and hassles
associated with dealing with a platform that has a sort of 'damned if you
do, damned if you don't' feel to its update procedures.  They may not have
enough knowledge to see how hampered they are and how much better a
computing experience could be.  A lot of people won't see it and you may
have to let them flounder until they realize they deserve more.

I hope my little dissertation helps.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: William Ballard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 12:28 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives


On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 12:16:21PM -0700, Gilbert, Joseph wrote:
 session and found that KDE had autodetected my sound card.  
You may want to
 have them give Sarge a try.  It may be a lot easier than even 
you suspect...
 keep in mind, that is a may.  :-)

This isn't a technical thing, so much as a motivation thing.  I 
actually 
remember the 3-4 years I was aware of things like apt-get and 
Debian 
and Microsoft Security bugs and just couldn't be bothered to switch.  
I remember exactly what went through my mind: (1) I already know how to 
do cool things, it's scary to stop doing the cool things I already know 
how to do; (2) even if it's cool, why should I work so hard when I'm 
already cool and know how to run things like CygWin?; (3) why 
don't them 
wierd Linux people just get a job like me and get an MSDN subscription; 
I've got all the stuff I need for free; why do I care?

And I spent a month getting all Debian's eyecandy and hardware 
acceleration working.  And mutt was ridiculous at first compared to 
Outlook.  Now of course, I see the world very differently, but I just 
don't know how to make someone else motivated to make this leap of 
faith.

Of course they'll like it -- but they just need to be nudged.  And I 
don't want to piss them off by making them do something they don't want 
to do.


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Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-21 Thread Paul Johnson

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Hash: SHA1

William Ballard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 My brother in law and nephew are above-average with computer skills but 
 not C programmers.  Both are resistant to trying the Knoppix CD I burned 
 for them because I told them it's going to be really hard for them to 
 get their sound card or network card or what have you working -- I 
 didn't lie to them.

Actually, you did (but not deliberately).  Knoppix (from at least this
year) gets both up and running automagically.  Get them the newest
Knoppix, and next time you're over there to fix their Windows system
again, throw Knoppix in and let them have at it.
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Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-21 Thread s. keeling

Incoming from William Ballard:
 On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 12:16:21PM -0700, Gilbert, Joseph wrote:
  session and found that KDE had autodetected my sound card.  You may want to
  have them give Sarge a try.  It may be a lot easier than even you suspect...
 
 This isn't a technical thing, so much as a motivation thing.  I actually 

Exactly.  I'd guess the best you could do is set them up with a dual
boot system, and beg them to try it for a week.  Give them Evo for
mail, and OO.  You better ensure everything works correctly out of
the box, and is secured, or they'll just end up with yet another
insecure and unstable platform.  You'll probably need to consider data
migration issues too.  How to get their mail from Windows to Linux and
back again?  You're also going to be their sysadmin for a while; do
you have remote access to their machines?  Are they going to trust you
to be root on their machines?

Maybe you should wait until the next disaster befalls them (shouldn't
be long).  They may then be better motivated to accept the challenge.


-- 
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Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-21 Thread William Ballard

On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 01:05:04PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
 Actually, you did (but not deliberately).  Knoppix (from at least this
 year) gets both up and running automagically.  Get them the newest
 Knoppix, and next time you're over there to fix their Windows system
 again, throw Knoppix in and let them have at it.

Not true: neither the soundcard nor the network card were detected 
automatically.  I think his network card was a 3com 3c59x or some 
permutation of those letters.  There's a common variety and a less 
common variety.  I googled whatever it was plus +debian and found out 
some completely non-intuitive driver you could substitute for it, and 
why Knoppix didn't support it out of box.  Never could quite figure out 
what the issue was with Alsa.

Of course I could have set there and dinked with it until it worked, but 
that's what I told them they'd have to do and they don't want to do it.

They're still stuck in that just run setup.exe from the vendor's 
website mindset.


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Re: [OT] Debian advocacy for Smart but Scared People With Lives

2004-10-21 Thread Pigeon

On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 04:48:51PM -0400, William Ballard wrote:
 On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 01:05:04PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
  Actually, you did (but not deliberately).  Knoppix (from at least this
  year) gets both up and running automagically.  Get them the newest
  Knoppix, and next time you're over there to fix their Windows system
  again, throw Knoppix in and let them have at it.
 
 Not true: neither the soundcard nor the network card were detected 
 automatically.  I think his network card was a 3com 3c59x or some 
 permutation of those letters.  There's a common variety and a less 
 common variety.  I googled whatever it was plus +debian and found out 
 some completely non-intuitive driver you could substitute for it, and 
 why Knoppix didn't support it out of box.  Never could quite figure out 
 what the issue was with Alsa.
 
 Of course I could have set there and dinked with it until it worked, but 
 that's what I told them they'd have to do and they don't want to do it.
 
 They're still stuck in that just run setup.exe from the vendor's 
 website mindset.

That's weird - that Knoppix has problems with 3Com network cards but
boot-floppies can cope OK. I like these cards because they Just Work.

-- 
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Re: High powered Debian advocacy?

2002-03-25 Thread Manoj Srivastava

Noah == Noah Sombrero [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Noah I can use symlinks, I can copy /usr to a new hd and mount the
 Noah new hd as /usr.  But these things could be unnecessary if a
 Noah small amount of lee way were built into the system.

We appreciate tested patches.

manoj
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Re: High powered Debian advocacy?

2002-03-24 Thread Karl E. Jorgensen

On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 06:32:37PM -0600, Nathan E Norman wrote:
 On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:41:12PM -0800, Noah Sombrero wrote:
  On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:27:21 -0600, you wrote:
  
   
   Hmm, yes I can move those directories and replace them with links or
   just mount them to appropriate dirs under /usr.  Did not think of that.
   But still, apt has this little flaw it seems to me.  
  
  apt is flawed because your /usr/partition is too small and you did not
  think to use symlinks?  That's hilarious.
  
  Apt is flawed because allowance is not made for the fact that hard drives
  fill up.
  
  I can use symlinks, I can copy /usr to a new hd and mount the new hd as
  /usr.  But these things could be unnecessary if a small amount of lee way
  were built into the system.
 
 [ snip ]
 
 I must be completely missing your point.
 
 [ rant snipped ]
 
 What _would satisfy you?  A system that said Hi, I noticed your /usr
 is pretty full so I'm going to delete some stuff?  Or should it say
 Hi, /usr is full so I'll just install stuff into
 /{home,var,opt,mnt,whatever} even though that's totally against
 accepted standards, will make life for users of this machine
 difficult, and will be almost impossible to maintain?  IOW, your
 small amount of leeway (it's one word) is no small thing at all.

There may actually be a valid idea in this; If we allow dpkg to install
files in different places than the package says, and puts symlinks in
place, then it just might work. E.g. if the package wants
/usr/bin/foobar, then dpkg could be put in /mntpoint/bin/foobar and add
a symlink to /usr/bin.

Something like:
dpkg --substitute /usr:/mntpoint --install my-favourite.deb

(some packages may not like having their files becoming symlinks)

 You say (in another email) that you are a programmer and you think
 this should be an obvious solution.  Fine, fire up $EDITOR and code
 away, submit patches, start your own distro, whatever.  If that's
 beyond you, try to understand _why_ things work the way they do.  Read
 the FHS.  Read Essential UNIX Administration (Frisch).  As a system
 administrator I would be appalled by a system that works the way you
 seem to want it to work.  As a programmer I see nothing but a
 minefield for little to no gain in usability.

I have to agree here. I would not want to fiddle with location of the 
files. Although it is probably possible to symlink things into /usr, I
don't see the need to. Perhaps it will be useful for very odd systems,
e.g. multiple 100Mb disks !? (LVM sounds better). 

Noah:- if you're really interested, feel free to hack dpkg. I have to
admit that I would not want to use such a feature, but somebody else
might. As long as it doesn't break dpkg and the default behaviour
doesn't change, I guess it would be OK. Just because *I* don't like the
idea, doesn't make it wrong.
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Re: Re: Re: High powered Debian advocacy?

2002-03-24 Thread Noah Meyerhans

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 02:07:36PM -0800, Noah Sombrero wrote:
 I have about 60 mb on /usr.  A software installing session could use
 that in nothing flat.  I have plenty of room on /mnt, but I have to
 install by hand to get anything there.  Then X doesn't know

Symlinks are your friend.

noah

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Re: High powered Debian advocacy?

2002-03-24 Thread Dimitri Maziuk

* Noah Sombrero ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) spake thusly:
 On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 18:32:37 -0600, you wrote:
 
 [ Note: I read the list.  I don't need nor do I want copies of mail
 sent to the list.  In this case you sent a copy to me with a different
 message id than what went to the list; something is broken at your
 end.  Please respect my Mail-Followup-To: header.  Thanks ]
 
 Sorry, I am just getting used to the fact that I must copy and paste
 the return address when I reply.

So, you don't know how to partition a hard drive, and you don't
know how to use your mail reader. Maybe you should come back after
you've read a few For Dummies books?

Dima
-- 
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Re: Re: Re: Re: High powered Debian advocacy?

2002-03-24 Thread Noah Sombrero

On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:32:58 -0500, you wrote:

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 02:07:36PM -0800, Noah Sombrero wrote:
 I have about 60 mb on /usr.  A software installing session could use
 that in nothing flat.  I have plenty of room on /mnt, but I have to
 install by hand to get anything there.  Then X doesn't know

Symlinks are your friend.

My simple comment that it is difficult to make use of extra hard
drives with apt has generated a lot more response than I would
have expected, from suggestions about how to work around the
difficulty to defenses of apt and the reasons why it is the way it
is.  

My thanks to all who gave advice.

Now I do have a question that I hope you can help with.  The last
time I tried (some versions ago), I was able to mount and edit
a boot floppy.  No longer seems to be true.  It wants me to
specify the fs system type.  I can't find any types in man mount
that work.  Suggestions?

Gleason


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Re: Re: Re: Re: High powered Debian advocacy?

2002-03-24 Thread Peter Whysall

On Sun, 2002-03-24 at 20:08, Noah Sombrero wrote:
 On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:32:58 -0500, you wrote:
 
 On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 02:07:36PM -0800, Noah Sombrero wrote:
  I have about 60 mb on /usr.  A software installing session could use
  that in nothing flat.  I have plenty of room on /mnt, but I have to
  install by hand to get anything there.  Then X doesn't know
 
 Symlinks are your friend.
 
 My simple comment that it is difficult to make use of extra hard
 drives with apt has generated a lot more response than I would
 have expected, from suggestions about how to work around the
 difficulty to defenses of apt and the reasons why it is the way it
 is.  

Do I understand that you want apt to detect when space is short on the
target device, and automatically generate symlinked mount points on
available devices with sufficient space?

If you've got such devices within the system, LVM makes more sense.

Pegards

Peter.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High powered Debian advocacy?

2002-03-24 Thread Peter Whysall

On Mon, 2002-03-25 at 03:05, Noah Sombrero wrote:
 On 24 Mar 2002 20:18:18 +, you wrote:
 
 
 Do I understand that you want apt to detect when space is short on the
 target device, and automatically generate symlinked mount points on
 available devices with sufficient space?
 
 If you've got such devices within the system, LVM makes more sense.
 
 No, I would just like to be able to specify an alternative destination in
 the configuration somehow.  

Do you mean in the same way as rpm --relocate foo.rpm ?
 
 Another person suggested that it is possible to configure apt to store
 downloaded files at an alternative destination by editing apt.conf.  
 This is true.  But there is more. 
 
 1) There needs to be an environmental variable pointing to apt.conf

Why would you want to move this file?

 2) You will need to edit a couple of perl scripts.

I suppose this could be automated.

 3) You will need to specify an admindir.  There are several places this
 could go:  dpkg.cfg, apt.conf, dselect.cfg.  Nope, the only way that
 works is to use the command line version dselect --admindir /foo/bar.
 You can, of course, automate this with a little shell script file.
 4) When you move the admin directory, two things need to stay, the
 alternatives dir under /var/lib/dkpg and the a copy of the status file.
 This copy of the status file is not used.  It just needs to be there.
 
 Number four makes me think that the process has not been completely
 thought out.  The other thing is, why isn't this procedure spelled out?  
 All OS's from MS to Apple to Linux put their users through the mysterious
 configuration exercise repeatedly.  There is a place for an OS that
 does not do this.  Who wants to be the next one to have 70 billion 
 dollars?

Perhaps this problem is substantially harder than it first appears.

I still, after all these posts, do not understand the substantial
benefit that your scheme would bring.

Very-end-users don't want to be asked anything - they just want their
packages to be installed and icons to appear. This is what I thought you
were after - transparent use of disk space, wherever it is within the
system. You don't seem to want this.

Advanced users who would want to relocate packages could do it
themselves.

Regards

Peter.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High powered Debian advocacy?

2002-03-24 Thread Noah Sombrero

On 25 Mar 2002 03:20:04 +, you wrote:

 No, I would just like to be able to specify an alternative destination in
 the configuration somehow.  

Do you mean in the same way as rpm --relocate foo.rpm ?

Don't have any experience with Red Hat.
 
 Another person suggested that it is possible to configure apt to store
 downloaded files at an alternative destination by editing apt.conf.  
 This is true.  But there is more. 
 
 1) There needs to be an environmental variable pointing to apt.conf

Why would you want to move this file?

I didn't want to.  apt/dselect/dpkg is not set up to find it without the 
environment variable.

Very-end-users don't want to be asked anything - they just want their
packages to be installed and icons to appear. This is what I thought you
were after - transparent use of disk space, wherever it is within the
system. You don't seem to want this.

No, I can navigate the bowels of Linux.  My comment was that apt makes
it difficult to use extra hard drives.  I think this can be made to be easier.  

Advanced users who would want to relocate packages could do it
themselves.

Some advanced users get paid for navigating the depths of an
unfathomable OS.  Others get paid for writing code.  For people who
get paid for writing code, the glamour of OS navigation fades.

In fact, I did find that dpkg does have a switch that allows specifying 
an alternative installation dir.  If you specify /mnt, dpkg installs under
/mnt/usr.  Good enough.  It will be necessary to be careful and not
use the switch when shared libraries, new kernels, etc. are being
installed.  And it will be necessary to stop dselect before it installs
new downloads.  Apt-get wouldn't work at all for this.

Gleason


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Re: Re: High powered Debian advocacy?

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:35:01 -0600, you wrote:

From personal experience, installing things in /opt/foo and using 
stow to link them to /usr/local sucks in many interesting ways (at 
least on Solaris).

So don't think FHS mandates that because FHS is stupid.


I can manually install packages on /mnt and then edit the X menus
to run those programs.  There are no functional problems with that
at all.  

If FHS did not mandate /usr, it would not be necessary for people
to try the symlinks etc. that you discussed.  I do understand that 
common libraries need to be stored in a known location.  And programs
that need to be in the path should not be scattered over gigabytes of
hard drives.  Otherwise, there seems to be no real reason that apt 
could not have some sort of configuration that allows installing new 
software somewhere besides /usr.  I kind of like the C++ model.  Explain
clearly how things should be done (oop, no gotos, no globals) but
provide for the possibility that somebody might intelligently have a good
reason for doing things differently.  Also it would be nice to be able 
to tell apt to download new *deb files somewhere besides /var/archives.  
Dselect allowed that before apt came along.

Gleason

Re: RE: Re: Re: High powered Debian advocacy?

On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 03:13:49 -, you wrote:

hi,

couldn't you copy over /usr to a new drive and then mount the new drive to
/usr ???

Chris

I think that is the best suggestion that I have received.  In fact, I probably 
will
do that.  But, my gut feeling is that computers should serve us rather than 
the other way around.  There should be a software solution.

Gleason


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Re: High powered Debian advocacy?

2002-03-23 Thread Gary Turner

On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:32:00 -0800, Noah Sombrero wrote:


I don't understand your problem.  Are you out of disc space, or did you
just mis-apportion your partitions?  Either way the problem is not that
packagers set up their apps to reside in /usr.  The problem is that you
need to re-partition or get another disc.

Inflexibility in the face of limited resources (even if you have 600 gigs
on your hard drive it is still limited).

Please read FHS.  Without picking at nits, everything but /usr is system
related.  See /boot, /etc, /home, /var, /sbin, /bin, etc..  /usr is
~the~ secondary hierarchy and basically is the rest of the disc.  Along
with /home (for data), /usr (for commands) will be the bulk of most
discs.  Granted that this does not allow splitting (easily?) either
across multiple discs, but just what do you require in flexibility?  You
can put /usr on that 600 gig disc all by itself if you wish.


The Filesystem Hierarchy Standards (FHS) http://www.pathname.com/fhs/ do
just what you want.  By standardizing file locations, you are much
better able to control your applications.  Would you insist on putting
your conf/init files just anywhere?  

That is not what I am asking to be able to do.  I do want to be able to
say where Netscape or Siag Office are installed.  Not the same thing.

Where is the benefit of being non-standard?  Of course you ~can~ put
them anywhere you wish, but you shouldn't expect packagers to go
non-standard.  If you require non-standard, you should create your own
non-standard package.

Or does putting them in /etc, where
every programmer knows the path, make sense?  Not enough room on your
/var partition?  Put your log or mail files just god knows where, right?
Of course you'll need to hack some source (and compile it yourself) to
indicate where to send mail and log info.  No biggie, make all
programmers include the option in their conf files.  Oops, where the
hell is that file parked?

Important files need to be where they can be found by file users.  Other 
files need only to find themselves.

OK.  Important files go into standardized locations (the primary
hierarchy?).  Other files go anywhere else.  Oh, wait; that's /usr.

Take a look at the standards.  I think you'll see that the end result is
to make your life easier where the file system is concerned.

As a programmer myself, I can say that I think that we sometimes 
tend to want to make our own lives easier at the expense of the user.
Which in the end includes ourselves.  False economy.

My coding does not go beyond the trivial in C++ and Java so I'm
definitely a user.  As a user, I find the FHS a necessity.  When I do
`apt-get install pkg`, I very much want to know that the files are put
where I expect them.  Should I find pressing need to install elsewhere,
well, that's a doable, too.

As an aside, the literature implies (often explicitly) that Debian is
the most FHS compliant distribution.  For this I am thankful.
--
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Yes I fear I am living beyond my mental means--Nash


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Re: Re: High powered Debian advocacy?


I don't understand your problem.  Are you out of disc space, or did you
just mis-apportion your partitions?  Either way the problem is not that
packagers set up their apps to reside in /usr.  The problem is that you
need to re-partition or get another disc.

Inflexibility in the face of limited resources (even if you have 600 gigs
on your hard drive it is still limited).

The Filesystem Hierarchy Standards (FHS) http://www.pathname.com/fhs/ do
just what you want.  By standardizing file locations, you are much
better able to control your applications.  Would you insist on putting
your conf/init files just anywhere?  

That is not what I am asking to be able to do.  I do want to be able to
say where Netscape or Siag Office are installed.  Not the same thing.

Or does putting them in /etc, where
every programmer knows the path, make sense?  Not enough room on your
/var partition?  Put your log or mail files just god knows where, right?
Of course you'll need to hack some source (and compile it yourself) to
indicate where to send mail and log info.  No biggie, make all
programmers include the option in their conf files.  Oops, where the
hell is that file parked?

Important files need to be where they can be found by file users.  Other 
files need only to find themselves.

Take a look at the standards.  I think you'll see that the end result is
to make your life easier where the file system is concerned.

As a programmer myself, I can say that I think that we sometimes 
tend to want to make our own lives easier at the expense of the user.
Which in the end includes ourselves.  False economy.

Gleason


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Re: Re: Re: Re: High powered Debian advocacy?

2002-03-23 Thread Nathan E Norman

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:41:12PM -0800, Noah Sombrero wrote:
 On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:27:21 -0600, you wrote:
 
  
  Hmm, yes I can move those directories and replace them with links or
  just mount them to appropriate dirs under /usr.  Did not think of that.
  But still, apt has this little flaw it seems to me.  
 
 apt is flawed because your /usr/partition is too small and you did not
 think to use symlinks?  That's hilarious.
 
 Apt is flawed because allowance is not made for the fact that hard drives
 fill up.
 
 I can use symlinks, I can copy /usr to a new hd and mount the new hd as
 /usr.  But these things could be unnecessary if a small amount of lee way
 were built into the system.

[ Note: I read the list.  I don't need nor do I want copies of mail
sent to the list.  In this case you sent a copy to me with a different
message id than what went to the list; something is broken at your
end.  Please respect my Mail-Followup-To: header.  Thanks ]

I must be completely missing your point.

You say apt is flawed.  Fine, open a bug.  Quit using apt, download
packages yourself, and install them using dpkg.  Oh wait, dpkg
installs according to the FHS as well.  File a bug against dpkg too;
better quit using that as well.  You can use ar to unpack your debs in
the meantime (and now that you're not using a package manager you can
install whatever you want however you want).

What _would satisfy you?  A system that said Hi, I noticed your /usr
is pretty full so I'm going to delete some stuff?  Or should it say
Hi, /usr is full so I'll just install stuff into
/{home,var,opt,mnt,whatever} even though that's totally against
accepted standards, will make life for users of this machine
difficult, and will be almost impossible to maintain?  IOW, your
small amount of leeway (it's one word) is no small thing at all.

You say (in another email) that you are a programmer and you think
this should be an obvious solution.  Fine, fire up $EDITOR and code
away, submit patches, start your own distro, whatever.  If that's
beyond you, try to understand _why_ things work the way they do.  Read
the FHS.  Read Essential UNIX Administration (Frisch).  As a system
administrator I would be appalled by a system that works the way you
seem to want it to work.  As a programmer I see nothing but a
minefield for little to no gain in usability.

Finally, I note that you have never posted your partitioning setup or
the output of df and du to back up your argument that apt is flawed.
Therefore I believe that I and others on the list will instead
conclude that your system administration is flawed.

-- 
Nathan Norman - Micromuse Ltd.  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gil-galad was an Elven-king.|  The Fellowship
Of him the harpers sadly sing:  |of
the last whose realm was fair and free  | the Ring
between the Mountains and the Sea.  |  J.R.R. Tolkien


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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: High powered Debian advocacy?

On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 18:32:37 -0600, you wrote:

[ Note: I read the list.  I don't need nor do I want copies of mail
sent to the list.  In this case you sent a copy to me with a different
message id than what went to the list; something is broken at your
end.  Please respect my Mail-Followup-To: header.  Thanks ]

Sorry, I am just getting used to the fact that I must copy and paste
the return address when I reply.

You say apt is flawed.  Fine, open a bug.  Quit using apt, download
packages yourself, and install them using dpkg. 

No, I just want to say what appears to me to be something that
could be improved in the presence of people who can do something
about it.  I hear such people read this list.

You say (in another email) that you are a programmer and you think
this should be an obvious solution.  

No, if it was obvious, it would already be done.

Fine, fire up $EDITOR and code
away, submit patches, start your own distro, whatever.  If that's
beyond you, try to understand _why_ things work the way they do.  

Yes, I understand, it makes programming simpler to put files 
all in one place.

Read
the FHS.  Read Essential UNIX Administration (Frisch).  As a system
administrator I would be appalled by a system that works the way you
seem to want it to work.  As a programmer I see nothing but a
minefield for little to no gain in usability.

I am not asking for random placement.  I am asking to decide where
some things will be put.  If I do that, I will know where they are.  

Finally, I note that you have never posted your partitioning setup or
the output of df and du to back up your argument that apt is flawed.
Therefore I believe that I and others on the list will instead
conclude that your system administration is flawed.

I don't suppose df or du would convince you of much.  But I suspect my
comments have been heard.  If the powers decide my comments have virtue,
it could be that a change will be made.

Gleason


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Re: Re: Re: Re: High powered Debian advocacy?