Questions to all DPL candidates
Hello, I would like to know your opinion about the discrimination of the contrib and non-free parts of the Debian archive(*). Do you think that hidding important pieces of software does serve our users? (with or without the bug license teaching messages) The best example for the current practice is removal of the question about adding contrib/non-free in apt-setup, which has now a low priority which means it is _hidden_ for a normal installation and so effectively disappeared in every normal installation. Thanks, Eduard. (*) some people claim that contrib and non-free are not part of Debian but they use their own definition (Debian==main archive) which I do not talk about. What I mean is the whole Debian distribution as seen by the majority of the users. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: a question for all the candidates, but particularly Anthony Towns
Thomas Bushnell BSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Developer's Reference Manual, in section 5.9.4 says you need to orphan a package if you can no longer maintain it. (It does not merely say that you should do so, or that you might want to.) Do we need a procedure to deal with cases like this? Should the QA team simply go ahead and devise one, as it did with the MIA problem? Yes. It's important that the quality of packages is maintained, even if the maintainer is failing to do so. If the QA team came up with a process for dealing with this problem, then I'd probably wholeheartedly endorse it. -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: other candidates opinion about project scud
Gaudenz Steinlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is your opinion about the proposed DPL team? Where do you see problems with this approach? What are the key benefits? The DPL team idea confuses me a little. The DPL can already delegate tasks to other members of the project, so I'm unconvinced by the argument that it's impossible for a single DPL to have time to do everything. I like the idea of power being distributed to more people, but I think the right answer is for this power to be distributed as necessary to whoever is most appropriate at the time. If you were elected DPL, would you also form a similar team? Why (not)? No. The DPL's team should be made up of everyone involved in the project, not a subset of it. There should be no issues that can't be discussed with everyone. How does the creation of a small team increase Debian's transparency? Why would their meetings be private? What real benefits does having this team bring to the project? -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question: proposals for users' participation
Tiago Saboga [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not a DD, and I've never before written to any debian-lists other than debian-user. I'm running debian on my home computer here in Brazil for a year and a half now, and I try to help debian when it's possible (translations for ddtd, bug reports). I'd like to hear from candidates what can (should) be made to encourage users active participation. I'd really like to support more effectively the project, but most of the time I feel my bug reports aren't precise enough (lack of knowledge), I can't code... To be honest, it's not actually something I've thought about a great deal up until this point. However, I think it /is/ important that we involve users more closely. I think the debian-women project has done an excellent job of involving a large number of non-developers, so I'd be very interested to hear what they've learned in this respect and encourage these lessons to be adopted more widely throughout the project. -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question for Andreas Schuldei and Branden Robinson
Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) It's my understanding that there exists a MOU (memorandum-of-understanding)-style document that employers of elected Debian Project Leaders are requested to sign when one of their employees is elected to the position. This MOU establishes that the employer will not attempt to exert leverage on the Debian Project via their employee's position. I'm not aware of any employer having refused this in the past. Perhaps some of our recent Project Leaders can elaborate. I've never heard of this. How can anyone be required to sign such a document, and what would the consequences of them failing to sign it be? Is this constitutionally mandated? -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question for the Debate/Candidates
Adam Heath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll keep it short and simple: What Muppet character do you see yourself as, and why? I'd like to be able to think of myself as Animal, since he has far too much fun. In reality, my general physical ineptitude probably marks me out as more of a Gonzo. -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions to all DPL candidates
Eduard Bloch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like to know your opinion about the discrimination of the contrib and non-free parts of the Debian archive(*). Debian's a free software project. It's unsurprising that we discriminate against non-free software. Do you think that hidding important pieces of software does serve our users? (with or without the bug license teaching messages) No, I don't think it serves our users. However, I don't think it's a great disservice to our users, and I think it does serve free software. (*) some people claim that contrib and non-free are not part of Debian but they use their own definition (Debian==main archive) which I do not talk about. What I mean is the whole Debian distribution as seen by the majority of the users. Strictly, it's the definition in the social contract. But yes, I know what you mean - most users do view Debian as being main, non-free and contrib. -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question to all candidates
Scott James Remnant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you believe that the tech-ctte should be relatively inactive? Or do you believe that an inactive Technical Committee is a bad thing? I don't think it would be a bad thing for the technical committee to be more active, but I don't think that's their fault. To some extent, we seem to have got better at reaching technical consensus without needing to involve the technical committee, and I think that's a good thing. If the latter, do you propose (as they would be your delegates) to make any changes to the current make-up of the committee. There doesn't seem to be any obvious reason to change the current committee. If people feel that they make bad decisions, then that might change. -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Concerns about the idea of Project Scud
Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where is the significant difference between these two scenarios? How does identifying a particular pool of potential DPL delegates that the candidate plans to work with, or a particular group of fellow developers that he plans to consult, make this untenable compared with past DPLs, who have surely also not made their decisions in a vacuum? I think that's an interesting question. What *is* the significant difference between these two scenarios? What problems do the members of Project Scud think will be solved by having a pre-selected team of people rather than appointing delegates on an as-needed basis? -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions to all DPL candidates
Eduard Bloch wrote: I would like to know your opinion about the discrimination of the contrib and non-free parts of the Debian archive(*). Do you think that hidding important pieces of software does serve our users? (with or without the bug license teaching messages) Out of curiosity, which important pieces of software are hidden by not mentioning or including non-free (and contrib)? Regards, Joey -- GNU GPL: The source will be with you... always. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions to all DPL candidates
On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 02:42:05PM +0100, Martin Schulze wrote: Out of curiosity, which important pieces of software are hidden by not mentioning or including non-free (and contrib)? Just a quick list of what some people might consider important or useful, yet is in contrib or non-free: - nvidia-glx - flashplugin-nonfree - atmel-firmware - eclipse - msttcorefonts - pine - tomcat /* Steinar */ -- Homepage: http://www.sesse.net/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions to all DPL candidates
#include hallo.h * Steinar H. Gunderson [Sun, Mar 13 2005, 02:53:38PM]: On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 02:42:05PM +0100, Martin Schulze wrote: Out of curiosity, which important pieces of software are hidden by not mentioning or including non-free (and contrib)? - nvidia-glx - atmel-firmware - eclipse - msttcorefonts - modem drivers for popular hardware - wlan drivers for popular NICs Not having them in sources.list and not having any clue about what may be wrong is a pain in the ass for new users. Regards, Eduard. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions to all DPL candidates
On 13 2005 15:53, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote: - eclipse - msttcorefonts I can't speak about the rest of this list, but kaffe is now able to run eclipse 3.0.1, which means that eclipse will sooner or later enter main. As for msttcorefonts, do we really need it? There are quite many packages of high quality fonts in Debian already. Sure, there was a time when it was silently and shamefully included in pretty much every DDs system, but not any more :-) Konstantinos
Re: Questions to all DPL candidates
Konstantinos Margaritis wrote: On ?? 13 ?? 2005 15:53, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote: - eclipse - msttcorefonts I can't speak about the rest of this list, but kaffe is now able to run eclipse 3.0.1, which means that eclipse will sooner or later enter main. As for msttcorefonts, do we really need it? There are quite many packages of high quality fonts in Debian already. Sure, there was a time when it was silently and shamefully included in pretty much every DDs system, but not any more :-) What's the compatible replacement for Times New Roman? Thiemo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions to all DPL candidates
On 13 2005 18:28, Thiemo Seufer wrote: What's the compatible replacement for Times New Roman? Compatible in what way? Do you need just a serif font? Or do you need some serif font that looks exactly like Times New Roman, same kerning, dimensions, etc but is not TImes New Roman? In the second case, I'm afraid I can't really help you, as I'm not a typesetting expert. But if you're just looking for a nice looking serif font, there are plenty: FreeSerif, Bitstream, Thryomanes, and I think there's a (non-free/contrib?) package of ttf-gentium, a very high quality serif font. But I think, OO.o, amongst others, offers the ability to use a font replacement table for improrting/exporting documents.
Question for all candidates
Do we actually need a DPL? Would we be noticeably worse off without a DPL? -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED] Every time you use Tcl, God kills a kitten. -- Malcolm Ray signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Questions to all DPL candidates
If it is non-free, then it doesn't belong in Debian. We never should have created a non-free section in the first place. If some outside, third party were to mirror the non-free section and maintain it as a separate distribution, usable with apt-get, that would be best. Although Debian is committed to providing a smooth, convenient experience for our users, we are even more committed to Freedom. If we have Freedom, the smooth, convenient comforts of life will inevitably come along in their own good time, without compromising what is important. Jonathan On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 12:30:00PM +0100, Eduard Bloch wrote: I would like to know your opinion about the discrimination of the contrib and non-free parts of the Debian archive(*). Do you think that hidding important pieces of software does serve our users? (with or without the bug license teaching messages) The best example for the current practice is removal of the question about adding contrib/non-free in apt-setup, which has now a low priority which means it is _hidden_ for a normal installation and so effectively disappeared in every normal installation. Thanks, Eduard. (*) some people claim that contrib and non-free are not part of Debian but they use their own definition (Debian==main archive) which I do not talk about. What I mean is the whole Debian distribution as seen by the majority of the users. -- It's not true unless it makes you laugh, but you don't understand it until it makes you weep. Eukleia: Jonathan Walther Address: 12706 99 Ave, Surrey, BC V3V2P8 (Canada) Contact: 604-684-1319 (daytime) Contact: 604-582-9308 (morning and evening) Website: http://reactor-core.org/ Puritan: Purity of faith, Purity of doctrine Puritan: Sola Scriptura, Tota Scriptura signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question for the Debate/Candidates
On Thu, Mar 10, 2005 at 02:18:43PM -0600, Adam Heath wrote: I'll keep it short and simple: What Muppet character do you see yourself as, and why? Kermit the Frog. Why? Because I'm a source of calm, level-headedness in a madhouse filled with people running around in every direction. Jonathan -- It's not true unless it makes you laugh, but you don't understand it until it makes you weep. Eukleia: Jonathan Walther Address: 12706 99 Ave, Surrey, BC V3V2P8 (Canada) Contact: 604-684-1319 (daytime) Contact: 604-582-9308 (morning and evening) Website: http://reactor-core.org/ Puritan: Purity of faith, Purity of doctrine Puritan: Sola Scriptura, Tota Scriptura signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: other candidates opinion about project scud
Hi, Matthew Garrett wrote:
The DPL's team should be made up of everyone involved in the project,
not a subset of it.
Your definition of team probably differs from the one the Scud people
use.
To pick a not-so-random example: To solve the too-long NEW queue
problem, you'd have a meeting with 10 people if you want to actually
accomplish something. If you round up 300+ active DDs and put them in one
room, mailing list or IRC channel instead, reaching that goal becomes
somewhat unlikely.
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Re: Questions to all DPL candidates
Hi, Thiemo Seufer wrote:
Replacement fonts are a standard feature, and using is usually breaks
formatting of the document.
This may be a nitpick, but documents which *break*, instead of just
looking somewhat sub-optimal, are mostly designed (I'm using that word
loosely) by people who still think that a word processing program works
like a typewriter.
The same thing happens if people want to print the nicely letter-formatted
text some US colleague mailed them on *gasp* A4 *shock* paper, and no font
equivalency will help you with that one.
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Re: other candidates opinion about project scud
Matthias Urlichs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your definition of team probably differs from the one the Scud people use. To pick a not-so-random example: To solve the too-long NEW queue problem, you'd have a meeting with 10 people if you want to actually accomplish something. If you round up 300+ active DDs and put them in one room, mailing list or IRC channel instead, reaching that goal becomes somewhat unlikely. If there's a problem that needs solving, then the right people to discuss it with are the people that can do something about it. In the NEW queue case, that would be the ftp-masters. Having a pre-chosen DPL team doesn't reduce the number of people that you have to talk to. -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform
Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Note: I originally posted this to another list -- thinking this whole debian-women thread was off topic for debian-vote. M.J. Ray indicated only that he thinks debian-vote is the appropriate list, so I'm reposting it here, with minor edits.] On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 12:22:49AM +, MJ Ray wrote: What a load of cobblers. The another list was curiosa and I indicated I'm not going to discuss this right now with someone who thinks exclusion and discrimination are funny. There's a difference between a topic as a whole, and a sub-thread which does not appear to be going anywhere useful. If this thread were about proposing balanced gender representation across the site as a whole, I could agree that my attempt to divert this thread elsewhere was inappropriate. So far, I've not seen you make any such proposal. And, personally, I think that such a proposal would probably be either ineffective, or inappropriate, given the volunteer and dispersed nature of Debian. As a general rule, the way to get things done around here is to do them yourself. You're the one who seems confused, thinking that pointing and laughing that sex is an action too is on-topic. I specifically pointed out that I was ignoring that interpretation because it was a false implication. If you read laughter into what I wrote, it wasn't mine. Finally, you are all too willing to claim you don't understand the reasoning, yet attribute spurious reasoning to me, which isn't surprising, given your past anatagonism. I have made that sort of claim, at times (for example, when faced with a sentence structure that seemed garbled). However, that was not my claim, in the message you are responding to. -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions to all DPL candidates
* Jonathan Walther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050313 21:35]: If it is non-free, then it doesn't belong in Debian. We never should have created a non-free section in the first place. If some outside, third party were to mirror the non-free section and maintain it as a separate distribution, usable with apt-get, that would be best. You mean the decision of the developers in http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_002 is wrong? Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question for the Debate/Candidates
also sprach Matthew Garrett [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.03.13.1401 +0100]: I'd like to be able to think of myself as Animal, since he has far too much fun. In reality, my general physical ineptitude probably marks me out as more of a Gonzo. Wow, now I am not sure whether to count the above for or against you. :_) -- Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question: Do you have the time to be DPL?
Gus wrote: At Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:04:26 +, Matthew Wilcox wrote: Given the DPL's role involves a fair amount of travel, speaking, giving interviews to the press, etc, do you think that you will have sufficient time to do a good job as DPL given your other commitments to Debian? Yes. Travelling and speaking is one of the key tasks of the DPL (as I see it), and something I explicitly considered before agreeing to nominate. My employer also employs other Debian Developers, so is aware of (and understands the implications of) my running for DPL. Out of curiosity - who do you work for, and which other DDs are employed there? -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED] Armed with Valor: Centurion represents quality of Discipline, Honor, Integrity and Loyalty. Now you don't have to be a Caesar to concord the digital world while feeling safe and proud. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions to all DPL candidates
At Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:17:26 +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Hi, Thiemo Seufer wrote: Replacement fonts are a standard feature, and using is usually breaks formatting of the document. This may be a nitpick, but documents which *break*, instead of just looking somewhat sub-optimal, are mostly designed (I'm using that word loosely) by people who still think that a word processing program works like a typewriter. Erm, no. Many metric compatible fonts aren't exactly that way. See http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/technotes/tfmetrics.pdf for an interesting comparison of Palatino. For the base 14 postscript/PDF fonts, these fonts are not embedded in documents, so metric compatibility *does* affect common use cases. Font licences are a real problem. Font licencing traditions were laid down a long time ago and (for example), many of them only allow redistribution in a subsetted (ie: embedded in some document) form - the entire font may not be redistributed. If we go for the no preferred format is no source at all extreme, then almost *no* fonts are usable. Do you have Bitstream Vera in a form thats appropriate to edit? (A notable exception here is the fonts developed recently for wine. They *are* actually compiled by fontforge at build time) To get back on topic, I feel that winning the free font battle is something it would be good to do. However, I don't feel that we get closer to winning the free software war by junking almost all of our fonts right now. In particular, non-latin1 languages generally can't make do with ASCII and for many of these, there are no appropriate free fonts available. I do *not* wish to drop our (good) l10n efforts in order to claim 100% free fonts - that all seems just a bit silly. [aside] The same thing happens if people want to print the nicely letter-formatted text some US colleague mailed them on *gasp* A4 *shock* paper, and no font equivalency will help you with that one. In PDF, at least, the crop box is able to be repositioned on the actual media box. Not a magical solution, but it does allow tools to get A4 vs letter right in many normal cases. -- - Gus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions to all DPL candidates
Hi,
Angus Lees:
Erm, no. Many metric compatible fonts aren't exactly that way.
See http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/technotes/tfmetrics.pdf for an
interesting comparison of Palatino.
With well-written documents, the worst problem probably is that you get
a font that's a bit wider and overruns a tabstop -- that looks bad, but
hardly constitutes breakage. In fact I consider that to be a design
error in the word processing program: it should indent the next column a
bit, instead of shifting everything to the next tabstop.
What I had in mind is people who insert a line break by hitting Space
until they get to the next line (instead of Shift-Return), or who
design forms by entering exactly 34 periods so that stuff lines up
correctly, or a heap of other stuff amply described in ancient books
such as The Mac is not a Typewriter (I think that was the first one).
I admit that this is a much larger problem with PDFs and similar
non-source formats. :-/
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Re: Question for the Debate/Candidates
On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 12:24:22AM +0100, Gergely Nagy wrote: Yamm is so huge, that Earth ran away, and Yamm stayed here in its place, using Gravity to keep Humans on self, and to control them. ^ Yamm is the TRUE LEADER, you see? Stop using me for your filthy devices! - David Nusinow -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: other candidates opinion about project scud
Hi, Steve Langasek wrote:
OTOH, solving the too-long NEW queue problem, or most problems within
the project, requires having the *right* 10 people in the room.
Heh. I kindof pre-assumed that. ;-)
The idea is not to make the DPL team the 10 people in the room; the idea
is to put together a DPL team that includes people who are often in the
room *anyway*, and commit to the goal of coordinating amongst ourselves to
stay better aware of current issues.
Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: other candidates opinion about project scud
Hi, Matthew Garrett wrote:
If there's a problem that needs solving, then the right people to discuss
it with are the people that can do something about it. In the NEW queue
case, that would be the ftp-masters.
Actually, I disagree (in the general case -- I don't want to dwell on my
example too much). Often, the people directly involved don't see the big
picture, otherwise they'd already have solved the problem. :-/
Having a pre-chosen DPL team doesn't reduce the number of people that
you have to talk to.
I didn't say that, did I?
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DPL Nominations
Is there a way to have three Debian Project Co-Leaders. All the nominees are so good I think Debian would benifit from the leadership of all three and it might be better than having just one leader. Maybe a leader and two co-leaders. It's a tremendous responsibility and workload which might be better attended to by three people IMHO. Cheers, Armand ___ Get free email at http://www.highdesert.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question: Do you have the time to be DPL?
At Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:24:22 +, Steve McIntyre wrote: Out of curiosity - who do you work for, and which other DDs are employed there? I work for Ursys (http://www.urnet.com.au/ - but the web page sucks) along with: Bart Bunting [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve Kowalik [EMAIL PROTECTED] Herbert Xu (recently ex DD) [EMAIL PROTECTED] and at one point Jean-Francois Dive [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- - Gus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question for candidate Towns
martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Martin Schulze [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.03.11.1715 +0100]: That people who would like to know more about Debian internals have no easy way of finding out, and if they approach those that know at the wrong time, or not in the way those would expect, they get flamed and blacklisted. As you weren't able to provide a single problem (but only listed a non-problem), I consider you're just a firefeeder. This is part of the problem: you (as well as some others) are in a situation in which you fail to understand how others in the project feel. You know a lot about the project, so it's all obvious to you. There are people among us who have not been part of Debian since 1.1, but who would like to know more about what's happening behind the curtains. However, those people are often told to RTFM or go spend time in the code, or just not taken seriously. When the code is public, rtfm is the proper answer. One might add document it properly afterwards as well, though. When the data is available as well, that's best. Some data cannot be made available for legal or other binding obligations (new queue, security archive). If you feel that some bits are missing and need to be documented better, point them out and get them documented better, maybe by doing it on your own. I know a lot about the project because I've been involved in many parts. Other developers are involved in many parts as well. Some other developers mostly whine about not being involved without trying to understand. *sigh* No, I do not have (nor do I want to present) a single example for you, Joey. I am sure that you will dissect just about anything I write. All the better if there is an easy way to find out I hope to be able to, but I cannot guarantee that I am. I believe that most parts of the project are either documented or publically available in source form so that all developers can educate themselves. everything about the project. It just does not help much if every aspect is documented in a different place, or using a different paradigm. Then try to unite the documentation instead of blindly bashing and whining. What you fail to see is that there is something daunting about a project of this size and complexity to those who are trying to understand it top-down, rather than having been part of building it bottom-up. What you fail to see is that the bits are available and that you only have to build the large picture. If you're too lazy to do so, it's not the job of the people working on essential corners of the project to educate every random Johnny Sixpack for the sake of it. Regards, Joey -- If nothing changes, everything will remain the same. -- Barne's Law -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
