Re: Sruthi's platform

[Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana]

Hi,

Em 22/03/2024 16:02, Sruthi Chandran escreveu:



Having 90% of assets in a single TO itself is not a good thing. That is 
like putting all the eggs in one basket. I suggested more TOs mainly to 
redistribute these assets. I know this would be a herculean task, but I 
would like to at least get it started.


Some Brazilian DDs are member of a non-profit organization here in 
Brazil (named ICTL) and It was responsible to manage the financial 
resources for DebConf19 in Curitiba.


We started to talk with Jonathan to promote ICTL as a Debian TO but for 
lack of time the idea has stopped. We would like the next Leader can 
evaluate this talk with us, if the idea is to have more TO's helping Debian.


Last year the amount of money spent by Brazilians (~10) who got bursary 
to travel from Brazil to India was very high, and it was terrible wait 3 
months to receive the reimbursement. This year probably the flight 
tickets price will be even higher, and I'm sure some of us are afraid to 
ask for bursary without knowing how long it will take to receive the 
reimbursement.


Best regards,

--
Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)
Belo Horizonte - Brasil
Debian Developer
Site: http://phls.com.br
GPG ID: 0443C450


OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Sruthi's platform

[Sruthi Chandran]

On 3/22/24 16:13, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:

Joost van Baal-Ilić  wrote on 22/03/2024 at 
09:54:35+0100:


On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 06:51:48AM +0100, Joost van Baal-Ilić wrote:


PS: I am eagerly awaiting a platform from
Sruthi Chandran . Up to now there still is the old one at
https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/platforms/srud .

Oops: apparently I missed https://www.debian.org/vote/2024/platforms/srud .
Sorry.

And thanks for opening the rig:

I have one question regarding Sruthi's platform.

In it, it is stated that: " I would like to revisit our relationship
with the existing trusted organisations, fund management procedure and
if needed, explore the possibilities of having more TOs to reduce
dependency on one or two. During DebConf23 organising, we had to face
numerous fund distribution issues. Some of it definitely was specific to
Indian scenario, but still I could think of a lot of improvement that
can be done with respect to fund distribution through TOs."

Being Debian France's treasurer since 2019 (dunno yet if treasurer will
be my main endeavour should I be reelected this year, but I'll
definitely continue to help as much as I can whatever my role becomes),
I have two issues:

  1. Many TOs create more liabilities: I have a certain memory of ffis
 eV, which disappeared with Debian assets. It's already hard to
 follow how things go under three TOs, so if we go to more, how do
 you expect to cope and avoid similar scenarii or worse?


I am also aware of such disappearance. Having TOs with just 1-2 people 
responsible is a warning sign. We should act before it is too late.


If we are going for more TOs, it would be ensured that there is a team 
of people and a good governing structure before committing. Regular 
review of the functioning of the TOs would be done and revoke agreements 
with TOs that shows signs of collapse.


About monitoring assets in TOs, regular reporting would be set as a 
requirement in the agreement. DPL or may be someone delegated 
(Treasurers?) would have to ensure the reporting is happening regularly.


These are some thoughts I have with my limited understanding of TOs and 
their relation with Debian. Once I have more clear picture, I might get 
some more ideas.



  2. SPI is too centric in the TO ecosystem.

I completely agree!


 After having spent two years in DF Treasurer, and more than 30 to
 50% of my Debian dedicated time attending to it, I learnt that a)
 SPI takes 5% of anything it receives for Debian (Debian France does
 not do that and will never do that) and b) it own 90% of Debian
 assets while it's very slow to process much things and is reluctant
 to rebalance these.

 What's "funny" is that this situation led DebConf organizers to ask
 us to become the spine of DebConf registration financial aspects, as
 it seems despite being alone (not anymore since the end of 2022, <3
 jipege) and not paid for it, I'm more reactive (and yet, some people
 could tell that sometimes I take far too much time, and I'd like to
 apologize for that) on these matters, and also keen on trying to
 find solutions when things go outside of the defined frame.
True in my experience too. Debian France and Debian.ch had very short 
turn around times.


 So, what seems important to me is rather this aspect. How did we get
 here? What do we intent do to about it? Incorporating Debian is a
 fine idea to me, and I'd still be happy to manage Debian assets, but
 at some point, the dyfunctional aspect, to me, is rather the way SPI
 evolved and the relation that resulted from this evolution.


How did we get here - I do not know. A lot of research would be needed 
to understand that or someone with more historic understanding could 
help here.


Having 90% of assets in a single TO itself is not a good thing. That is 
like putting all the eggs in one basket. I suggested more TOs mainly to 
redistribute these assets. I know this would be a herculean task, but I 
would like to at least get it started.


I do agree on your point of why things are dysfunctional. When things 
have evolved and things are not looking good, we should revisit the 
whole thing. This also is not going to be an easy task.




I'd like to hear both your feelings on this, and I'd really appreciate
to get Jonathan's insights on this, too, as he did the DPL job for a
long time and might have clues I don't have and failed to get from him
(bc he's busy) over IRC chat.

Thanks



OpenPGP_0xC7EA1BE1574DED5D.asc
Description: OpenPGP public key


OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Sruthi's platform (was: Re: Question to candidates: new legal entity for Debian worldwide)

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

Joost van Baal-Ilić  wrote on 22/03/2024 at 
09:54:35+0100:

> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 06:51:48AM +0100, Joost van Baal-Ilić wrote:
>> 
> 
>> PS: I am eagerly awaiting a platform from
>> Sruthi Chandran . Up to now there still is the old one at
>> https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/platforms/srud .
>
> Oops: apparently I missed https://www.debian.org/vote/2024/platforms/srud .
> Sorry.

And thanks for opening the rig:

I have one question regarding Sruthi's platform.

In it, it is stated that: " I would like to revisit our relationship
with the existing trusted organisations, fund management procedure and
if needed, explore the possibilities of having more TOs to reduce
dependency on one or two. During DebConf23 organising, we had to face
numerous fund distribution issues. Some of it definitely was specific to
Indian scenario, but still I could think of a lot of improvement that
can be done with respect to fund distribution through TOs."

Being Debian France's treasurer since 2019 (dunno yet if treasurer will
be my main endeavour should I be reelected this year, but I'll
definitely continue to help as much as I can whatever my role becomes),
I have two issues:

 1. Many TOs create more liabilities: I have a certain memory of ffis
eV, which disappeared with Debian assets. It's already hard to
follow how things go under three TOs, so if we go to more, how do
you expect to cope and avoid similar scenarii or worse?
 2. SPI is too centric in the TO ecosystem.

After having spent two years in DF Treasurer, and more than 30 to
50% of my Debian dedicated time attending to it, I learnt that a)
SPI takes 5% of anything it receives for Debian (Debian France does
not do that and will never do that) and b) it own 90% of Debian
assets while it's very slow to process much things and is reluctant
to rebalance these.

What's "funny" is that this situation led DebConf organizers to ask
us to become the spine of DebConf registration financial aspects, as
it seems despite being alone (not anymore since the end of 2022, <3
jipege) and not paid for it, I'm more reactive (and yet, some people
could tell that sometimes I take far too much time, and I'd like to
apologize for that) on these matters, and also keen on trying to
find solutions when things go outside of the defined frame.

So, what seems important to me is rather this aspect. How did we get
here? What do we intent do to about it? Incorporating Debian is a
fine idea to me, and I'd still be happy to manage Debian assets, but
at some point, the dyfunctional aspect, to me, is rather the way SPI
evolved and the relation that resulted from this evolution.

I'd like to hear both your feelings on this, and I'd really appreciate
to get Jonathan's insights on this, too, as he did the DPL job for a
long time and might have clues I don't have and failed to get from him
(bc he's busy) over IRC chat.

Thanks

-- 
PEB


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Sruthi's platform (was: Re: Question to candidates: new legal entity for Debian worldwide)

[Joost van Baal-Ilić]

On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 06:51:48AM +0100, Joost van Baal-Ilić wrote:
> 

> PS: I am eagerly awaiting a platform from
> Sruthi Chandran . Up to now there still is the old one at
> https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/platforms/srud .

Oops: apparently I missed https://www.debian.org/vote/2024/platforms/srud .
Sorry.

> 

thu aug 16, 2023 / Re: Debian's 30th Birthday (was: Re: Platform)

[Joost van Baal-Ilić]

Hi,

[Cc-ing some -events lists, Mail-Followup-To: debian-localgroups@l.d.o.]

On Mon, Mar 20, 2023 at 02:08:11PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote at
debian-vote@l.d.o:
> On 2023/03/15 16:29, Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana wrote:
> > I believe this year is a special because it's 30 years of Debian.
> > 
> > So we need a speciall call for celebration 😄
> 
> I agree, last year I was swamped around Debian's birthday nearly even missed
> it altogether. I was thinking then that it would be a lost opportunity to
> not do something bigger for the 30th.
> 
> How enthusiastic are you about this? Would you be willing to put together a
> team who could help manage a 30th birthday? This could be great for local
> teams, especially if we could try something like 30 birthday parties in 30
> cities across the world, and perhaps 30 talks/events that could be
> broadcasted during the event.
> 
> Might be nice to set it up DebConf-style, complete with a wafer site and
> have the video infra up for it, but I'm just spitballing here. Either way,
> I'm very happy to support a team who work on 30th birthday celebrations, and
> the budget for it won't be a problem. If some people from local teams could
> get together to brainstorm and plan it, I'm sure it could be something very
> memorable.

Johathan: Thanks for allocating budget!

That would be thursday august 16, 2023.  Seems our friends in La Paz, Bolivia
are already planning: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDay/2023 .

Yes, I'm interested in helping out in .nl.

Bye,

Joost

Debian's 30th Birthday (was: Re: Platform)

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Paulo

On 2023/03/15 16:29, Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana wrote:

I believe this year is a special because it's 30 years of Debian.

So we need a speciall call for celebration 😄


I agree, last year I was swamped around Debian's birthday nearly even 
missed it altogether. I was thinking then that it would be a lost 
opportunity to not do something bigger for the 30th.


How enthusiastic are you about this? Would you be willing to put 
together a team who could help manage a 30th birthday? This could be 
great for local teams, especially if we could try something like 30 
birthday parties in 30 cities across the world, and perhaps 30 
talks/events that could be broadcasted during the event.


Might be nice to set it up DebConf-style, complete with a wafer site and 
have the video infra up for it, but I'm just spitballing here. Either 
way, I'm very happy to support a team who work on 30th birthday 
celebrations, and the budget for it won't be a problem. If some people 
from local teams could get together to brainstorm and plan it, I'm sure 
it could be something very memorable.


-Jonathan

Re: Platform

[Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana]

Hi Jonathan,

Em 14/03/2023 13:38, Jonathan Carter escreveu:

Hey everyone


Even though I'm the only one running this time, I hope that we can use 
the time leading to the election as productive discussion time as we've 
done in some previous campaign periods.


I believe this year is a special because it's 30 years of Debian.

So we need a speciall call for celebration :-)

Best regards,

--
Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)
Belo Horizonte - Brasil
Debian Developer
Site: http://phls.com.br
GPG ID: 0443C450


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Platform

[Jonathan Carter]

Hey everyone

I suppose some people might be wondering if I'm writing a platform for 
this election- and the answer is YES!


I meant to have it ready by the end of the weekend, but got hit by some 
tummy bug that's been going around and just couldn't concentrate on the 
platform much. I'll work on it tonight and send it to the secretary ASAP.


Even though I'm the only one running this time, I hope that we can use 
the time leading to the election as productive discussion time as we've 
done in some previous campaign periods.


thanks!

-Jonathan

Re: Question for all candidates: Sam's non-platform: Delegates

[Brian Gupta]

On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 1:35 PM Sean Whitton  wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> In his non-platform, Sam wrote
>
> If I were running as DPL, figuring out how to do a better job of
> managing delegations, respecting both the current delegates and the
> needs of the project, would be my priority for the next year.  I
> hope that the candidates who step forward take on this challenge.
>
> Do you agree?  If so, how do you propose to take on the challenge?

If I am elected DPL, one of the first things I will do, is a check-in with all
delegated teams, and ask them what support and time they might need from me over
the coming year, and ask them for a sense of how they feel things are going. I
would make plans accordingly.

Of course, if it was brought to my attention that someone was unhappy with a
team's service, I'd remind them that we are all volunteers, but I'd look into
the expressed concerns and discuss them with the team in question. I would see
if the team understands where the concerns are coming from and if they feel
there is anything we could do to help the situation.

Cheers,
Brian


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Question for all candidates: Sam's non-platform: Delegates

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2020/03/18 19:33, Sean Whitton wrote:
> In his non-platform, Sam wrote
>
> If I were running as DPL, figuring out how to do a better job of
> managing delegations, respecting both the current delegates and the
> needs of the project, would be my priority for the next year.  I
> hope that the candidates who step forward take on this challenge.
>
> Do you agree?  If so, how do you propose to take on the challenge?

Yes, I agree with Sam that the next DPL should do a better job of
dealing with delegations.

That means being available and reserving some bandwidth for delegations
even when other exciting things are happening. Also actively checking in
on delegations that are known to need some support, like the DebConf
team in the period before Debconf starts and probably also scheduled
check-ins with delegations like the treasurers.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Question for all candidates: Sam's non-platform: Delegates

[Sean Whitton]

Hello,

In his non-platform, Sam wrote

If I were running as DPL, figuring out how to do a better job of
managing delegations, respecting both the current delegates and the
needs of the project, would be my priority for the next year.  I
hope that the candidates who step forward take on this challenge.

Do you agree?  If so, how do you propose to take on the challenge?

Thanks.

-- 
Sean Whitton


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Self-nomination, on a platform to create a Debian Foundation

[Brian Gupta]

Hi, I'm Brian Gupta, found online as bgupta.
 
I am running for DPL with a singular goal. The creation of Debian US and EU 
Foundations. I largely view my candidacy as a referendum on this goal and its 
details. During the campaigning period, I will share the details as part of my 
platform, and I will update my platform to incorporate feedback. If it's clear 
there isn't a rough consensus to move forward, I will likely withdraw my 
candidacy. (Perhaps for reworking and another day.)

-Brian


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Opposite of a Platform for DPL 2020

[Marco d'Itri]

andr...@fatal.se wrote:

>I just wanted to take the opportunity to say that while I might not
>have thought exactly the same as you in every detail I very much
>appreciate that you've tried to actually show leadership during
>your time as DPL (rather than just being a passive spokesperson for the
[...]

Me too, and I am sad that you will not run again.

-- 
ciao,
Marco

Re: Opposite of a Platform for DPL 2020

[Marc Haber]

On Mon, Mar 09, 2020 at 05:23:46PM +0100, Andreas Henriksson wrote:
> I just wanted to take the opportunity to say that while I might not
> have thought exactly the same as you in every detail I very much
> appreciate that you've tried to actually show leadership during
> your time as DPL (rather than just being a passive spokesperson for the
> project). I find that leadership and direction is something the project
> very much needs, so thank you very much for showing this is possible and
> hopefully starting a new trend among future candidates. I hope they will
> continue showing leadership, making sure we can move forward and
> establish a relevant vision and how we'll actually accomplish it!

Well said. +1 in all counts.

Greetings
Marc

-- 
-
Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header
Leimen, Germany|  lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
Nordisch by Nature |  How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

Re: Opposite of a Platform for DPL 2020

[Andreas Henriksson]

Hello Sam Hartman,

I just wanted to take the opportunity to say that while I might not
have thought exactly the same as you in every detail I very much
appreciate that you've tried to actually show leadership during
your time as DPL (rather than just being a passive spokesperson for the
project). I find that leadership and direction is something the project
very much needs, so thank you very much for showing this is possible and
hopefully starting a new trend among future candidates. I hope they will
continue showing leadership, making sure we can move forward and
establish a relevant vision and how we'll actually accomplish it!

Regards,
Andreas Henriksson

Re: Opposite of a Platform for DPL 2020

[Brian Gupta]

On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 2:32 PM Sam Hartman  wrote:

>
> TL;DR: Overall, being DPL has been incredibly rewarding.  I have
> enjoyed working with you all, and have enjoyed the opportunity to
> contribute to the Debian Project.  I hope to be DPL again some year,
> but 2020 is the wrong year for me and for the project.  So I will not
> nominate myself this year, but hope to do so some future year.
>
> I wanted to take some time to share my thoughts on my time as DPL, and
> some thoughts about the next year.  Over the past year, we've done
> some great work.  I'd like to start by acknowledging that and taking a
> moment to be proud of our accomplishments together.
>
> Consensus And Summaries: DH and Git
> ===
>
> In my platform I wrote:
>
> Debian is not fun when we face grueling, long, heated discussions.  It
> is not fun when we are unable to move a project forward because we cannot
> figure out how to get our ideas considered or how to contribute effectively.
>
> Much of my focus at DPL was on a couple of experiments in decision
> making.  Together I hoped we could show ourselves and the world that
> Debian can make decisions.  I wanted to explore the DPL's role in
> accomplishing that.
>
> We succeeded.  I facilitated a number of consensus-based discussions
> where we explored options and came to conclusions.  In my mind the
> major elements of these were:
>
> * Starting with a statement of the problem area and a set of
> questions/observations about the current state of the discussion.
>
> * Giving people an opportunity to give input.
>
> * Indicating areas where we appeared to have an answer and areas where
> additional input was required; trying to cut off threads that were starting
> to repeat themselves.
>
> * Providing a summary so others could check that we got to the same place.
>
> * Feeding results of the discussion to the appropriate parts of the
> project.
>
>
> I think we succeeded at this work a number of times.  From my
> standpoint, it was rewarding and energizing to see us actually make a
> decision and to get to a place where I thought we were not just
> repeating ourselves.  For me and a number of other contributors I've
> talked to, discussions are less draining when we reach conclusions.
>
> I think I demonstrated that the DPL can be valuable in facilitating
> these discussions.  I'm glad that I was able to explore more ways that
> the DPL could help the project.
>
> But what really made me happy is watching others copy this pattern.
> Yes, the DPL can facilitate, and for some project-level discussions
> that is the right answer.  But anyone can implement the above steps.
> I saw a number of people do so.  In particular, I think summaries at
> the end of discussions are incredibly important.  It was great to see
> others doing that.  It's great to see us learning together.
>
> This was an experiment.  While I think we demonstrated that we can use
> this procedure to make decisions, we also brought forward a number of
> things to think about for the future.  The biggest issue is that these
> discussions do take time and energy even when they eventually reach
> conclusions.  I think we need to think carefully about when we need to
> make decisions as a project, or when other approaches are better.
>
> Also, one or two people can cause a consensus discussion to drag on
> much longer.  As an example, it was obvious to me as a facilitator
> very early on in the Git Packaging discussion that we were not going
> to change our position on the use of Gitlab and other non-free
> services.  Hundreds of messages were spent on a sub-thread that was
> never going to reach consensus.  We need better tools for managing
> that use of our collective time while allowing each other to be heard.
>
> I think both of these are great areas to explore as we continue to
> improve Debian decision making.
>
> Facilitated GRs
> ===
>
> In my platform I talked about how I thought the DPL's power to propose
> general resolutions could be used as a tool for facilitating
> discussion when consensus cannot work.  We explored that together, and
> I think we did a great job of breaking a longstanding block in how we
> approach init systems.
>
> The traditional wisdom is that GRs should be proposed by a strong
> proponent of the option in question.
>
> I was dubious of this wisdom.  It starts the process out on a
> confrontational note, rather than as a cooperative exploration of what
> the project wants.  When consensus is impossible, there is inherent
> conflict.  However, we can (and did) work together cooperatively to
> enumerate the options.  I belie

Opposite of a Platform for DPL 2020

[Sam Hartman]

TL;DR: Overall, being DPL has been incredibly rewarding.  I have
enjoyed working with you all, and have enjoyed the opportunity to
contribute to the Debian Project.  I hope to be DPL again some year,
but 2020 is the wrong year for me and for the project.  So I will not
nominate myself this year, but hope to do so some future year.

I wanted to take some time to share my thoughts on my time as DPL, and
some thoughts about the next year.  Over the past year, we've done
some great work.  I'd like to start by acknowledging that and taking a
moment to be proud of our accomplishments together.

Consensus And Summaries: DH and Git
===

In my platform I wrote:

Debian is not fun when we face grueling, long, heated discussions.  It is 
not fun when we are unable to move a project forward because we cannot figure 
out how to get our ideas considered or how to contribute effectively.

Much of my focus at DPL was on a couple of experiments in decision
making.  Together I hoped we could show ourselves and the world that
Debian can make decisions.  I wanted to explore the DPL's role in
accomplishing that.

We succeeded.  I facilitated a number of consensus-based discussions
where we explored options and came to conclusions.  In my mind the
major elements of these were:

* Starting with a statement of the problem area and a set of 
questions/observations about the current state of the discussion.

* Giving people an opportunity to give input.

* Indicating areas where we appeared to have an answer and areas where 
additional input was required; trying to cut off threads that were starting to 
repeat themselves.

* Providing a summary so others could check that we got to the same place.

* Feeding results of the discussion to the appropriate parts of the project.


I think we succeeded at this work a number of times.  From my
standpoint, it was rewarding and energizing to see us actually make a
decision and to get to a place where I thought we were not just
repeating ourselves.  For me and a number of other contributors I've
talked to, discussions are less draining when we reach conclusions.

I think I demonstrated that the DPL can be valuable in facilitating
these discussions.  I'm glad that I was able to explore more ways that
the DPL could help the project.

But what really made me happy is watching others copy this pattern.
Yes, the DPL can facilitate, and for some project-level discussions
that is the right answer.  But anyone can implement the above steps.
I saw a number of people do so.  In particular, I think summaries at
the end of discussions are incredibly important.  It was great to see
others doing that.  It's great to see us learning together.

This was an experiment.  While I think we demonstrated that we can use
this procedure to make decisions, we also brought forward a number of
things to think about for the future.  The biggest issue is that these
discussions do take time and energy even when they eventually reach
conclusions.  I think we need to think carefully about when we need to
make decisions as a project, or when other approaches are better.

Also, one or two people can cause a consensus discussion to drag on
much longer.  As an example, it was obvious to me as a facilitator
very early on in the Git Packaging discussion that we were not going
to change our position on the use of Gitlab and other non-free
services.  Hundreds of messages were spent on a sub-thread that was
never going to reach consensus.  We need better tools for managing
that use of our collective time while allowing each other to be heard.

I think both of these are great areas to explore as we continue to
improve Debian decision making.

Facilitated GRs
===

In my platform I talked about how I thought the DPL's power to propose
general resolutions could be used as a tool for facilitating
discussion when consensus cannot work.  We explored that together, and
I think we did a great job of breaking a longstanding block in how we
approach init systems.

The traditional wisdom is that GRs should be proposed by a strong
proponent of the option in question.

I was dubious of this wisdom.  It starts the process out on a
confrontational note, rather than as a cooperative exploration of what
the project wants.  When consensus is impossible, there is inherent
conflict.  However, we can (and did) work together cooperatively to
enumerate the options.  I believe doing some ground work as a
facilitator behind the scenes helped make that easier.

There's another benefit though.  By working to facilitate, I was able
to hear options in the middle expressed by people who had opinions,
but who were not involved enough to dedicate their time to go put that
option forward.  In this instance, that sort of compromise--collected
from comments of bystanders rather than entrenched parties--won.

Yes, there are dangers to compromise, but there are also dangers to o

Re: Lars Wirzenius' not-platform?

[Daniel Pocock]

On 18 March 2016 07:40:47 GMT+08:00, Paul Wise  wrote:
>To the candidate:
>
>Have you read Lars Wirzenius' not-platform?
>
>http://blog.liw.fi/posts/dpl-2016-not-platform/
>
>Do you have any thoughts on it?
>
>Does Debian need the Social Committee proposed by Lars?

I feel that more personal contact (e.g. events) and activities like leadership 
training/seminars would help address the problem he describes.  Many DPL 
candidates, including Mehdi, have indicated support for the former, it would be 
interesting to see comments on the latter.



-- 
http://danielpocock.com

Re: Lars Wirzenius' not-platform?

[Mehdi Dogguy]

Hi,

On 18/03/2016 00:40, Paul Wise wrote:
> To the candidate:
> 
> Have you read Lars Wirzenius' not-platform?
> 
> http://blog.liw.fi/posts/dpl-2016-not-platform/
> 
> Do you have any thoughts on it?
> 
> Does Debian need the Social Committee proposed by Lars?
> 

The candidate replied in <56ed3f23.4050...@dogguy.org>. :-)
Feel free to follow-up there.

Regards,

-- 
Mehdi

Re: thoughts on liw's non-platform?

[Mehdi Dogguy]

Hi Paul,

On 14/03/2016 04:25, Paul Wise wrote:
> Hi Mehdi,
> 
> Lars Wirzenius recently wrote a blog post entitled "Not-platform for 
> Debian project leader elections 2016". I wonder if you have any 
> thoughts on what he has written there:
> 
> http://blog.liw.fi/posts/dpl-2016-not-platform/
> 

liw's platform is devided into two parts. First part shows describes
opinion about DPL's role. Then, another part follows about the idea of
the "social committee".

I mostly share what he wrote about the role of the DPL. It describes
in a few items where a DPL can be expected to act. There might be a
little mix between people's expectations and real priorities of a DPL
though. Inspiring and motivating people is, at least IMHO, a little
different from making things run smoothly. Indeed, DPL's primary focus
should be to make sure there are no big blockers, and that people are
able to get things done (in a satisfactory way by Debian standards).
Inspiring and motivating people should be everyone's job! It is not
something that a DPL should do specifically. It might be a way to make
things run smoothly, but it is not a goal per se. Motivating people
day after day can be done simply by trying to be helpful, replying in
a respectful way, being welcoming, etc… Inspiring people is a much
harder job, and people should not wait to become a DPL in order to
try! As I said in my platform, innovation is expected from every
project member. Inspiration is no different.

The second idea of the platform is about the fact that the DPL is
overwhelmed by social conflicts and spends a lot of time trying to
resolve them. liw explains that a dedicated committee might help by
taking this burden off the shoulders of the DPL. I acknowledge the
issue and I sympathize with the idea but I am not sure how it could be
applied in real life.

Conflicts can hardly be characterized. Mediation is not an easy task
and requires (IMHO) some creativity and patience. I don't think that
finding a committee that will be suitable for all sorts of conflicts
is realistic. If a problem escalated to the DPL, then I see (at least)
3 main situations: 1) The requester doesn't know who to ask to resolve
the issue; 2) Involved people need a new opinion on the matter; 3) The
issue got worse and nobody is able to speak to each other. First, I
expect the DPL to understand the nature of the conflict and identify
involved parties. I don't expect the DPL to do miracles in conflicts
like #3 above. Then, a DPL may try to resolve the conflict by himself
or delegate, when possible. This is all theory though.

I don't have an accurate idea of the amount of conflicts where a DPL
is asked for help. I don't imagine the number to be huge, but I expect
subject to be lengthy and require a large amount of time until
resolution (in best case). We don't know who would be motivated enough
to help when issues occur. Maybe that's the purpose of the proposed
committee. But I don't see what kind of special authority it could
have (anyone is free to send mails and talk to people). It'd help to
have a list of people available and ready to help resolving conflicts,
if ever asked to. That surely will ease the DPL's job to some
degree. Whether the list is a committee or not doesn't seem relevant.

As the committee is described in liw's non-platform, I am tempted to
say that our social committee is all project members. It should not be
bound to one entity.

Regards,

-- 
Mehdi

Lars Wirzenius' not-platform?

[Paul Wise]

To the candidate:

Have you read Lars Wirzenius' not-platform?

http://blog.liw.fi/posts/dpl-2016-not-platform/

Do you have any thoughts on it?

Does Debian need the Social Committee proposed by Lars?

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

thoughts on liw's non-platform?

[Paul Wise]

Hi Mehdi,

Lars Wirzenius recently wrote a blog post entitled "Not-platform for
Debian project leader elections 2016". I wonder if you have any
thoughts on what he has written there:

http://blog.liw.fi/posts/dpl-2016-not-platform/

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Platform

[Wouter Verhelst]

Before I start answering mails and get to the campaigning bit, I should
apologise for not writing my platform before the candidacy submission
deadline. I agree (in hindsight) with the general feeling here that
platforms should be available by the time campaigning starts.

As I stated in my candidacy submission, I had an /extremely/ busy
weekend; I said "a concert", but there were actually three performances
(two on saturday, one on sunday), and I had volunteered to videotape the
concert (using dvswitch), which basically meant I had no time left for
anything but 'sleep, set things up, and sing'. I just realized that I
haven't had a decent meal for the whole weekend.

Not that this should matter much to anyone, but like I said, I hope
nobody will hold this against me. I just finished writing my platform,
and the secretary should be ready to publish them soon, I hope, unless
he's still waiting on anyone else.

Anyway. Let's get to the campaining!

-- 
The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters
works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is
trying to fool the system.
  http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100315223721.ga10...@celtic.nixsys.be

Question to Anthony Towns: precision about your platform

[Pierre Habouzit]

  In the “DPL Review” part of your platform, I'm quite surprised to see:

  * September: Dunc-Tank.org launch

  It feels like sometimes the separation between your two alter egos
(the DPL and the Debian Developer) gets confused as we see the actions
you claim to be from the latter being attributed to the former.


  If you're going to be re-elected, and if dunc-tank is to be continued
also, will you still remain on the board and pursue this rather
schizophrenic split, that does not seem to be that clear, even to you ?

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OOOhttp://www.madism.org


pgp4BwMEJ5KiU.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Project leader platform status

[Debian Project Secretary]

Hi,
On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:52:44 -0600, Debian Project Secretary
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:  

>  I plan on publishing whatever I have tomorrow, and limit our
>  schedule slippage.

I have just committed the platforms to webwml CVS, so they
 should get installed in due course (less than 4 hours from the time
 of writing).

manoj
-- 
There's small choice in rotten apples. William Shakespeare, "The
Taming of the Shrew"
Debian Project Secretary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


pgp3NHLVIageE.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Project leader platform status

[Debian Project Secretary]

Hi,

So far, I have received 5 out of the 9 platforms, which
 squeezes the window for the debates, since we should like to have the
 rebuttals up in place before the debates take place.

So, candidates, if you have not already sent in your platform
 to [EMAIL PROTECTED], please do so now.

I plan on publishing whatever I have tomorrow, and limit our
 schedule slippage.

manoj
-- 
Hey, wait a minute!!  I want a divorce!! ... you're not Clint Eastwood!!
Debian Project Secretary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <http://vote.debian.org/>
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


pgpsATzOUtdJ5.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Platform in three keywords (was: Question for all candidates)

[Andreas Schuldei]

* Mike Hommey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-03-02 14:49:37]:

> If you had to summarize your platform with 3 keywords, what would they be ?

- purpose-driven
- predictable
- warm and welcoming


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

back from vacation, platform up

[Andreas Schuldei]

I had a nice skiing vacation with my family and am happy to let
you know that my platform is by now up at
http://people.debian.org/~andreas
as I was asked about it by several DDs.

I also sent in the platform to the project's secretary and expect
that it will be put online as soon as he gets the time to do so
after his trip.

I am now going through the backlog of -vote mail and will start
answering questions as time permits.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

AJ's platform

[Steve Greenland]

Mr. Towns writes:
> 'Cause I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me votes!

Let me be the first to contradict you on this one. I take checks, money
orders, or US currency. Send me a private e-mail for address. 

Hmmm, with 7 candidates, this might actually be profitable. I'll send
the highest bidder the necessary key to verify my vote.

Thanks!
Steve "I stay bought" Greenland

-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Small teams and other platform positions...

[Ean Schuessler]

The Vancouver Prospectus, SCUD and "small teams" have given me pause for 
thought. On the surface, it seems that there cannot be much wrong with 
Debianers gathering together physically to talk and make decisions about the 
direction of the operating system. I personally had the good fortune to 
attend DebConf in Puerto Alegre and very much enjoyed meeting people, having 
drinks and all the other fine things that come from face-to-face meetings. 
Without a doubt, communication is much more fluid and productive in such a 
context.

However, I have grave concerns about placing emphasis on face-to-face meetings 
as a methodology for moving the project forward. Could we accidentally create 
a "two class" society in the process? What will happen if we divide Debian 
into a group of those who can attend these meetings and those who cannot?

Taking time off from work and traveling to a DebConf is a significant 
investment. For many Debianers (the majority, perhaps) this is an investment 
that is out of their reach or requires giving up a "normal" vacation. Create 
several "key gatherings" a year and only a "professional Debianer"  will be 
able to keep up. You will either have to be independently wealthy or work for 
an organization with some direct financial interest in Debian. I didn't sign 
up for that. I could have run my business on Red Hat long ago. I want to 
"share the software" on a level playing field.

We should focus our energies on electronic infrastructures. Tools such as the 
"testing" distribution. Electronic tools are accessable by everyone- whether 
they can walk well, can afford to fly or are good public speakers. We should 
design systems using tools that are equally accessible. Mailinglists, wikis 
and the usual fare should never be replaced with isolated face-to-face 
meetings sponsored by commercial vendors. Building concensus via the net *is* 
the revolutionary part of Debian. Face-to-face meetings have been around for 
thousands of years. They aren't new. They may be fun, but they lead to 
trouble.

Automated systems enforce quality policies in a uniform way without getting 
frustrated, flaming people or retiring. You can't code favoritism into an 
electronic tool without it being plainly visible to the trained eye. Accounts 
that get special treatment, or have special capabilities, will be easy to 
spot and will require explanation. Certain users will always require "special 
powers" but in a social system influence becomes a matter of fuzzy logic 
rather than discrete fact.

It is fun to meet in person. We should have big parties, big dinners, chances 
to get to know each other, make friends and have a drink. But let's try to 
make sure that attending such meetings never become a requirement for 
participation. That will kill something central to what we are.

The world of politics between humans is well explored. It runs your government 
and your business. I put it to you that "small groups" doesn't add up to 
"loving relationships". In general, it leads to war. History tells this story 
again and again. I hope we can focus our group on discrete systems instead of 
cliques and cabals. With code, even the most antisocial person can distill 
good intentions into a tireless and helpful servant. Humans will always be 
subject to their personal failings and tantrums. Let's remember to be lazy 
programmers and leave everything we can to machines.

When you vote, remember, code is more important than commercials.

-- 
Ean Schuessler, CTO
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
214-720-0700 x 315
Brainfood, Inc.
http://www.brainfood.com


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Aliases for /dev/null: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Anthony Towns  writes:
> 
> > This is not the case; in most cases the people complaining about
> > ifupdown have made it very clear they're not interested in
> > co-maintenance.
> 
> I know one person who is interested in co-maintenance.  It doesn't
> really matter what "in most cases" means, what matters is whether
> there is any case of someone who is interested in maintaining the
> package. 

I apologize, this statement was incorrect.  I thought I knew of such a
person, but I had misinterpreted his statements badly.  I know of no
one who has volunteered to co-maintain the package together with
Anthony.  I think the package could use some work and new development
(as does Anthony) and I hope someone with the necessary skills will
step up to help.

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Aliases for /dev/null: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

Anthony Towns  writes:

> Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> > Anthony Towns  writes:
> >>This is not the case; in most cases the people complaining about
> >>ifupdown have made it very clear they're not interested in
> >>co-maintenance.
> > I know one person who is interested in co-maintenance.
> 
> Well, from your other mail it looks like you're more interested in
> continuing campaigning after the campaign period's ended, which I
> won't be a part of; but if this is really the case, please feel free
> to discuss it with me over email.

I am not sure the correct interpretation of the Constitution's
statement about campaigning.  It seems obvious to me that campaigning
is what candidates do; not what other people do in discussing them.
I'm not sure at all that the constitution prohibts campaigning anyhow
during the voting period.  Has the Secretary ever ruled on this point?
It is of course up to you what you send, and I'm not trying to force
you to say anything.

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Aliases for /dev/null: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Anthony Towns]

Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
Anthony Towns  writes:
This is not the case; in most cases the people complaining about
ifupdown have made it very clear they're not interested in
co-maintenance.
I know one person who is interested in co-maintenance.
Well, from your other mail it looks like you're more interested in 
continuing campaigning after the campaign period's ended, which I won't 
be a part of; but if this is really the case, please feel free to 
discuss it with me over email.

Regards,
aj
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Aliases for /dev/null: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

Anthony Towns  writes:

> This is not the case; in most cases the people complaining about
> ifupdown have made it very clear they're not interested in
> co-maintenance.

I know one person who is interested in co-maintenance.  It doesn't
really matter what "in most cases" means, what matters is whether
there is any case of someone who is interested in maintaining the
package. 

> > Developers are required to orphan packages when they are no longer
> > able to maintain them.  We have a rule in Debian that you cannot force
> > a developer to do something, but that you must step aside and not
> > block someone else from doing it in your place.
> 
> And the number of NMUs there have been seem like it might indicate
> that other folks' work has been able to continue. Given I'm also the
> upstream author of ifupdown I think it's reasonable for me to expect
> whoever might want to take over maintaining the package to establish a
> good working relationship with me.

The developer's reference manual does not say this is ok.  It says it
is not ok.  Your correct course of action is to file an RFA on wnpp.
Maintenance through NMU is not acceptible; if you cannot or will not
maintain the package (and nobody is saying you must), then Debian
procedures require you to file an RFA or orphan the package or accept
a co-maintainer. 

> > Indeed, I believe he has shown that he is exceedingly poor at
> > time-management.
> 
> Thanks for posting this 30m before end of campaigning so it can't be
> addressed with a DPL candidate cap on. Smoothly done.

Actually, I asked all the candidates to describe their own
time-management in detail in message
http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005/03/msg00549.html.  It is not
my fault that you chose to ignore this request, but that doesn't mean
that it's unfair of my to draw my own conclusions.

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Aliases for /dev/null: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Anthony Towns]

Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
Anthony is the "maintainer" of this package, and has refused either to
allow adoption or a co-maintainer arrangement with interested partes.
This is not the case; in most cases the people complaining about 
ifupdown have made it very clear they're not interested in co-maintenance.

He has not done a maintainer upload for years.  
Though I've done an NMU in the last year.
Developers are required to orphan packages when they are no longer
able to maintain them.  We have a rule in Debian that you cannot force
a developer to do something, but that you must step aside and not
block someone else from doing it in your place.
And the number of NMUs there have been seem like it might indicate that 
other folks' work has been able to continue. Given I'm also the upstream 
author of ifupdown I think it's reasonable for me to expect whoever 
might want to take over maintaining the package to establish a good 
working relationship with me.

Indeed, I believe he has shown that he is exceedingly poor at
time-management.
Thanks for posting this 30m before end of campaigning so it can't be 
addressed with a DPL candidate cap on. Smoothly done.

Regards,
aj
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Aliases for /dev/null: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Raul Miller]

On Sun, Mar 20, 2005 at 03:26:23PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> My question is: when there is a technical issue, but one developer
> refuses to discuss it with tech-ctte or anyone else, can tech-ctte get
> involved?  

Yes.

> It does, but I recall in the past being told that tech-ctte doesn't
> get involved unless both developers in a dispute agree there is a
> dispute worth the tech-ctte's decision.

That's a good heuristic, but not an absolute rule.

If there's no technical conflict, there is no reason for the committee
to be involved.

If there's a conflict, but one of the developers is inactive, that
could be a situation where the committee needs to get involved (but
typically the result there would be an orphaned package, so this isn't
a particularly likely situation).

-- 
Raul


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Aliases for /dev/null: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Beyond that... since you've not actually stated any technical issues,
> and since the maintainer of that package is one of the DPL candidates, I
> think you should make an effort to be clear about what you're saying here.

This is a different question, and I apologize for linking the two
confusingly.

Anthony is the "maintainer" of this package, and has refused either to
allow adoption or a co-maintainer arrangement with interested partes.
He has not done a maintainer upload for years.  

Developers are required to orphan packages when they are no longer
able to maintain them.  We have a rule in Debian that you cannot force
a developer to do something, but that you must step aside and not
block someone else from doing it in your place.  Anthony has not been
willing to in this case.

Indeed, I believe he has shown that he is exceedingly poor at
time-management.  I believe that as DPL he would simply be taking on a
series of new tasks and I have no confidence that he would actually do
them, any more than he maintains ifupdown.

One of the key questions for me is: how well does this person do the
jobs they are doing now?  Some jobs I believe Anthony does very well
indeed: I believe he is good at ftpmaster, and I think he did a great
job as release manager in the past.  But as maintainer of ifupdown
(and some other packages as well) he does a miserable job, and worse,
shows no awareness that he is doing a miserable job.

I note the difference here between him and Branden Robinson.  Branden
has also done a miserable job with some of the things he has taken on
in the past, but he freely admits this, and does what he can to pass
the task on to others.

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Aliases for /dev/null: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> As described, this is an administrative issue, rather than a technical
> issue.

Yes, that's correct.  At present there is no reason for tech-ctte to
be involved.  My example was poorly chosen.

> Beyond that... since you've not actually stated any technical issues,
> and since the maintainer of that package is one of the DPL candidates, I
> think you should make an effort to be clear about what you're saying here.

One thing I'm saying I'll say separately, since it's not relevant to
what I'm saying to you.

My question is: when there is a technical issue, but one developer
refuses to discuss it with tech-ctte or anyone else, can tech-ctte get
involved?  

> If there were actions the technical committee needed to take, inaction
> on the part of the package maintainer wouldn't prevent the technical
> committee from reaching a decision.

It does, but I recall in the past being told that tech-ctte doesn't
get involved unless both developers in a dispute agree there is a
dispute worth the tech-ctte's decision.

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Aliases for /dev/null: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Raul Miller]

> Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > What work?

On Sun, Mar 20, 2005 at 02:46:17PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> I have in mind, for example, the ifupdown script.  The maintainer has
> not made a maintainer upload for years, and so maintenance of the
> package has been proceding by NMU.  But NMUs cannot do more than fix a
> few kinds of crucial bugs.  It is clear that the maintainer doesn't
> want to maintain this package and has had other priorities for a long
> time.  There is nothing wrong with this.  Other people have
> volunteered to maintain the package, and been rebuffed or ignored.

As described, this is an administrative issue, rather than a technical
issue.

However, you strongly imply that technical issues exist.

For the technical committee to weigh in on this, the interested parties
would need to speak up (the constitution says so, and it makes sense).
You don't have to have multiple parties speaking up, but the people that
want action do need to lay out what the technical issues are.

There's a huge amount of ground that could be covered at by a script
like ifupdown -- there's no reason to not have alternatives for it.
No reason, except that involves work.

Beyond that... since you've not actually stated any technical issues,
and since the maintainer of that package is one of the DPL candidates, I
think you should make an effort to be clear about what you're saying here.

There can be good reasons for leaving a package with NMU'd fixes (for
example: if the maintainer has no way of testing the fixes, and has had
no reason to upload changes for any other reason).

Anyways, the technical committee is for resolving technical conflicts,
and so far you've not specified any unresolved technical problems.
You've mentioned administrative issues, and you've hinted at technical
problems, but ...

... but ifupdown does not seem to me to be an example of how a package
maintainer can "avoid the technical committee" by not acting.

If there were actions the technical committee needed to take, inaction
on the part of the package maintainer wouldn't prevent the technical
committee from reaching a decision.

Does that make sense?

Thanks,

-- 
Raul


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Aliases for /dev/null: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> What work?
> 
> A developer who never acts would have no work to review.  The technical
> committee would thus never have any reason to override any decisions
> this developer made -- because there would be no such decisions.

I have in mind, for example, the ifupdown script.  The maintainer has
not made a maintainer upload for years, and so maintenance of the
package has been proceding by NMU.  But NMUs cannot do more than fix a
few kinds of crucial bugs.  It is clear that the maintainer doesn't
want to maintain this package and has had other priorities for a long
time.  There is nothing wrong with this.  Other people have
volunteered to maintain the package, and been rebuffed or ignored.

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Aliases for /dev/null: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Raul Miller]

> > How can the tech-ctte override a developer by not acting?

On Mon, Mar 07, 2005 at 10:55:21AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> No, the question is whether a developer (by never acting) can avoid
> tech-ctte review of his work.

What work?

A developer who never acts would have no work to review.  The technical
committee would thus never have any reason to override any decisions
this developer made -- because there would be no such decisions.

In general, a developer who ensures that changes are made in a backwards
compatible fashion is not likely to cause problems where the technical
committee has to step in.  But that's not "never acting".  Sometimes that
means "taking a great deal of action".

There is another side to this (the "clean up cruft" side), but mostly
debian developers are competent enough that they don't create technical
conflicts.  [Not entirely -- it could be argued that Sarge is taking so
long to release because of technical conflicts, but these tend to be
more of "we need to figure out what to do" than "A says we need to do
X and B says we need to do Y, but we can't do both X and Y".]

All you have to do to avoid the tech committee stepping in is make sure
your problems get resolved reasonably.  Most people seem to be able to
do this.

-- 
Raul


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Raul Miller]

> Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > There's a difference between a topic as a whole, and a sub-thread which
> > does not appear to be going anywhere useful.

On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 10:09:07AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> Sure. I have asked the questions on-topic here (summarised at
> http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/communication-exclusion.html
> http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/communication-debian-women.html )
> and hope candidates will answer.
>
> Since a request from someone I respect (and a few I don't), I have
> mostly given corrections and rebuttals of opinions falsely attributed
> to me. Directing that to a list for "funny things" is contemptible.

I was not responding to either of the pages posted at the above urls.
However, you seem to think those pages are relevant.  Which would imply,
for example, that it's contemptible to classify as funny the the first
question from the first url, above:

   "Do the women get extra attention because they write English?"

I'll agree that this isn't funny in the hilarious knee-slapping sense
of a really good joke.  It's kinda odd, and I think that there is a bit
of humor in the way that question is phrased, but let's ignore that and
try to focus on the issues here which are important to debian.

Er... is your contempt the important issue here?  If not, then what is?

-- 
Raul


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Sure. I have asked the questions on-topic here (summarised at
> > http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/communication-exclusion.html
> > http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/communication-debian-women.html )
> > and hope candidates will answer.
> Both of those pages are unclear about what "the problem" is.  If you
> were more explicit, it might be helpful.

I think they're in common English wording and any relevant
unknowns are easily seen by following the context links, so
I'll wait for candidate questions instead of contradictor ones.
In the second, the problem isn't directly required for candidates
to give their position on the topics, but it that Walther didn't
consult before naming people.

Please stop cc'ing me directly. Put it on-list.
-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Subscribed to this list. No need to Cc, thanks.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Sure. I have asked the questions on-topic here (summarised at
> http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/communication-exclusion.html
> http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/communication-debian-women.html )
> and hope candidates will answer.

Both of those pages are unclear about what "the problem" is.  If you
were more explicit, it might be helpful.

The first contains three questions, the first of which is quite
strangely worded.  "Do X's get extra attention because they are Y?"
(where there is no necessary connection between being X and Y), is
ambiguous.  If the answer is "yes", would that mean that they get
extra attention because they are X, because they are Y, or because
both?

The second and thing questions refer to "how to address other
problems" without saying what the first problem is or what kinds of
other problems are meant.

The second page refers to "the debian-women problem" as if it were
obvious that there is a problem in the first place; without saying
what exactly that problem is, it proceeds to offer its own diagnosis
of "the problem" (whatever that is), and then asks the candidates for
where the stand on "these topics and this issue", where the latter is
still not specified, and the former is five separate topics.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There's a difference between a topic as a whole, and a sub-thread which
> does not appear to be going anywhere useful.

Sure. I have asked the questions on-topic here (summarised at
http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/communication-exclusion.html
http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005/communication-debian-women.html )
and hope candidates will answer.

Since a request from someone I respect (and a few I don't), I have
mostly given corrections and rebuttals of opinions falsely attributed
to me. Directing that to a list for "funny things" is contemptible.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Raul Miller]

> Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > [Note: I originally posted this to another list -- thinking this whole 
> > debian-women thread was off topic for debian-vote.  M.J. Ray 
> > indicated only that he thinks debian-vote is the appropriate list, so 
> > I'm reposting it here, with minor edits.]

On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 12:22:49AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> What a load of cobblers. The "another list" was curiosa and I
> indicated I'm not going to discuss this right now with someone
> who thinks exclusion and discrimination are funny.

There's a difference between a topic as a whole, and a sub-thread which
does not appear to be going anywhere useful.

If this thread were about proposing balanced gender representation
across the site as a whole, I could agree that my attempt to divert
this thread elsewhere was inappropriate.  So far, I've not seen you make
any such proposal.  And, personally, I think that such a proposal would
probably be either ineffective, or inappropriate, given the volunteer
and dispersed nature of Debian.  As a general rule, the way to get things
done around here is to do them yourself.

> You're the one who seems confused, thinking that pointing and
> laughing that "sex" is an action too is on-topic.

I specifically pointed out that I was ignoring that interpretation
because it was a false implication.  If you read laughter into what I
wrote, it wasn't mine.

> Finally, you are all too willing to claim you don't understand
> the reasoning, yet attribute spurious reasoning to me, which
> isn't surprising, given your past anatagonism.

I have made that sort of claim, at times (for example, when faced with
a sentence structure that seemed garbled).

However, that was not my claim, in the message you are responding to.

-- 
Raul


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [Note: I originally posted this to another list -- thinking this whole 
> debian-women thread was off topic for debian-vote.  M.J. Ray 
> indicated only that he thinks debian-vote is the appropriate list, so 
> I'm reposting it here, with minor edits.]

What a load of cobblers. The "another list" was curiosa and I
indicated I'm not going to discuss this right now with someone
who thinks exclusion and discrimination are funny.

You're the one who seems confused, thinking that pointing and
laughing that "sex" is an action too is on-topic.

Finally, you are all too willing to claim you don't understand
the reasoning, yet attribute spurious reasoning to me, which
isn't surprising, given your past anatagonism.

-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Subscribed to this list. No need to Cc, thanks.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Right, you're still avoiding the questions and following your own
> agenda on some misunderstood point. I'm not keen on any further
> off-topic, so I just ask you to reread my messages and think
> whether you read the "offensive" messages for the point I made.

I've said three times that the answer to the question "is the list
discriminatory" is that it does discriminate on the basis of topic,
but not on the basis of the gender of the poster.

What other question should I answer?

> Somewhat ironic you grumble at aj to be liberal.

No, I haven't "grumbled"; I've simply been trying to figure out on
what basis and with what controls he would like to have for a list
moderation policy (or whatever actual policy might show up).  I am
neither arguing for "more liberal" or "more conservative".



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > > to discrimination, but I was told that wasn't a list purpose:
> > > > are you saying it is? Why do you know better than others?
> > I notice that you do not directly answer any question.
> I am saying tha discrimination on the basis of topic is a list rule;
> this is normal for nearly every mailing list I have every been on.

Right, you're still avoiding the questions and following your own
agenda on some misunderstood point. I'm not keen on any further
off-topic, so I just ask you to reread my messages and think
whether you read the "offensive" messages for the point I made.

Somewhat ironic you grumble at aj to be liberal.

-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Subscribed to this list. No need to Cc, thanks.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Raul Miller]

[Note: I originally posted this to another list -- thinking this whole 
debian-women thread was off topic for debian-vote.  M.J. Ray 
indicated only that he thinks debian-vote is the appropriate list, so 
I'm reposting it here, with minor edits.]

Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > And, personally, I really don't see the relevance in the context of
> > this web page.  If you're tired, and want to just get stuff done, don't
> > you have your own web pages? [...]

On 10 Mar 2005 02:36:49 GMT, MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A variation on the "you can discriminate in your own space" suggestion.
> Not a good approach to stopping discrimination, though.

The question is: what problem are you trying to solve?

Are you trying to eradicate people making fine distinctions, or are
you trying to address some sort of unfairness that hurts people?

My impression is that you've confused the label for the issue, and
that you're focussing on distinctions rather than unfairness.

> > I think you're confusing that project with a web page. [...]
>
> Not really.

No, really: I have been thinking that.  I've been trying to come up
with some reasonable explanation behind the words you've been saying,
and confusion [on your part] still seems to me to be the best
candidate.

> The project maintains the web page.

This is true, in a general sense.  More specifically, volunteers
maintain that web page on behalf of the project.  So, ok, this is a
good start at indicating you're aware of the difference between that
project, as a whole, and that page, specifically..

> The project  has a mailing list.

Yep.

> On both of these and some others, when a  choice is
> made on how to include or exclude from something,
> sex is used as a primary decision-maker.

Since the focus of that group is a disporportionate lack of
representation from one gender, it kinda makes sense that that issue
is significant when determining what's relevant to the discussions of
that group.

(Note that I'm deliberately ignoring some of the false implications
that one could take from your sentence.  For example, I'm ignoring the
verb form of the word "sex".  For example, I'm ignoring your
implication that there's something wrong with focussing discussion on
this disproportionate lack of membership.)

> This is despite what some of the reasonable members say or do
> about addressing wider issues not limited to one sex and that the
> project should avoid being sexist.

"Despite"?  I don't think "despite" is accurate -- not unless you're
focussing on false implications of other people's statements.

For that matter, you've yet to indicate you understand what is meant
by "sexist".

My understanding of your arguments is that you think "sexist" means
"making distinctions on the basis of gender", and that you're
objecting to this one page which profiles women because it does not
focus equally on both genders.

My understanding is that they're using "sexist"  to refer to unfair
distinctions based on gender, and "discrimination" to refer to unfair
distinctions in general.

> [The "this discrimination doesn't hurt men" argument and then...]

Ok, so maybe you are really aware of the issues and are just
pretending otherwise?

> > I think you should be fair about this -- either bring up a specific
> > concrete problem where someone is being injured, or admit that you
> > don't have any such issue in mind.
>
> > "You didn't put the people I want on your page" sounds more like the
>
> If it's fair to call one-sided example genders on www.debian as
> a bug, let's call it a bug where it happens across all debian.

Are you proposing that debian have a rule that when a person of one
gender is mentioned on a page that a person of the other gender must
also be mentioned?

Because if that's what you're suggesting, then debian-vote is the
right place for this discussion.

However, from the actions you're advocating I don't feel you
are interested in fairness in the context of debian as a whole.

> Is it fair? The www example genders weren't shown to be
> concretely injuring anyone before being changed, either.

I don't understand this last sentence.

Are you saying that the project membership does not disproportionately
disfavor one gender?

Are you saying that it's unreasonable for people to be concerned about
this issue?

Or are you merely saying that this issue is not likely to have
immediately fatal consequences?

--
Raul


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > > > If you think this is *wrong*, then why?  Because you have a right to
> > > > be responded to no matter what you say, even when you are hostile to
> > > > the purposes the list was created for?
> > > I'm not hostile to balancing debian's composition.  I'm hostile
> > > to discrimination, but I was told that wasn't a list purpose:
> > > are you saying it is? Why do you know better than others?
> 
> I notice that you do not directly answer any question.

I am saying tha discrimination on the basis of topic is a list rule;
this is normal for nearly every mailing list I have every been on.

But discrimination on the basis of the gender of the poster is not.

Where has anyone been excluded because they are male?  

> Why do you think that is the case?

Because I've read the offensive messages in question, and because they
were clearly off-topic for the group and manifested hostility to the
list's existence and purpose.  I've also seen messages from men which
were sympathetic to the list's purposes, and they weren't criticized
or excluded in any way.

I conclude that the discrimination is on the basis of topic, and not
gender.

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [...]
> > Not in that sense, but that sense doesn't follow directly from
> > the word "policy". I'd expect someone consistently ignoring it
> > to be corrected, but ICBW.
> It's not policy regardless.  It's a recommendation about what will
> make the list more useful and pleasant.

I refer you to a dictionary, sorry.

> > > If you think this is *wrong*, then why?  Because you have a right to
> > > be responded to no matter what you say, even when you are hostile to
> > > the purposes the list was created for?
> > I'm not hostile to balancing debian's composition.  I'm hostile
> > to discrimination, but I was told that wasn't a list purpose:
> > are you saying it is? Why do you know better than others?

I notice that you do not directly answer any question.

> The list discriminates on the basis of *topic*, but not on the basis
> of the gender of the *contributor*.  Get it?

Why do you think that is the case?


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: My platform

[Lionel Elie Mamane]

On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 04:44:19AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> martin f krafft wrote:

>> Anyway, how are you going to ensure that we don't scream at each
>> other over VoIP lines? Traffic control? :)
 
> High frequency filtering? :)

No, come on, this would be discriminatory for women, youth and soprano
singers ;-)

-- 
Lionel


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The idea to ignore trolls is hardly new, or unusual. Nor is it a
> > "policy", in the sense that anyone is ordered to ignore them under
> > pain of expulsion. [...]
> 
> Not in that sense, but that sense doesn't follow directly from
> the word "policy". I'd expect someone consistently ignoring it
> to be corrected, but ICBW.

It's not policy regardless.  It's a recommendation about what will
make the list more useful and pleasant.

> > If you think this is *wrong*, then why?  Because you have a right to
> > be responded to no matter what you say, even when you are hostile to
> > the purposes the list was created for?
> 
> I'm not hostile to balancing debian's composition.  I'm hostile
> to discrimination, but I was told that wasn't a list purpose:
> are you saying it is? Why do you know better than others?

The list discriminates on the basis of *topic*, but not on the basis
of the gender of the *contributor*.  Get it?


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: My platform

[Anthony Towns]

martin f krafft wrote:
Anyway, how are you going to ensure that we don't scream at each
other over VoIP lines? Traffic control? :)
High frequency filtering? :)
Cheers,
aj
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: My platform

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Angus Lees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.03.11.1007 +0100]:
> As a general strategy, I'd like to move a lot of the actual discussion
> off the mailing lists and into some higher bandwidth, higher turnover
> medium. 

You seem to imply moving from asynchronous to synchronous media. How
are you planning to address the issues related to timezone, and the
fact that synchronous media require all peers to be present
simultaneously, while a major advantage of mailing lists is that
people can respond when they find time?

Also, mailing list archives are an invaluable resource, which does
not exist as such on most synchronous media, especially not for
VoIP. Have you considered this? What do you plan to do about it.

> Even IRC, with its famed ability to waste time, seems to somehow
> avoid the nastiness of public mailing lists.

People get less publicity and therefore have less motivation to
profile themselves. But it's quite rough on IRC sometimes. People
just seem to take things less personally and generally have
a thicker skin on IRC. That's why we can swear at each other and
make fun of others without risking the productivity of the channel.
There is a continuously high level of sarcasm, don't worry.

Anyway, how are you going to ensure that we don't scream at each
other over VoIP lines? Traffic control? :)

> The approach I think is going to have the most dramatic impact
> here is of course mailing list moderation.  Although some people
> are hotly opposed to this form of "censorship", this is something
> I believe the project would benefit from and something we need to
> experiment with.

Fair enough.

> I know the listmasters have some ideas here and there is obviously
> huge variation in possible algorithms - I would think different
> lists might even want different policies.  I think this is
> a discussion we need to have and I think its an area where we need
> to feel confident to try out different ideas, make mistakes and
> not be afraid to roll them back.

I agree.

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The idea to ignore trolls is hardly new, or unusual. Nor is it a
> "policy", in the sense that anyone is ordered to ignore them under
> pain of expulsion. [...]

Not in that sense, but that sense doesn't follow directly from
the word "policy". I'd expect someone consistently ignoring it
to be corrected, but ICBW.

> If you think this is *wrong*, then why?  Because you have a right to
> be responded to no matter what you say, even when you are hostile to
> the purposes the list was created for?

I'm not hostile to balancing debian's composition.  I'm hostile
to discrimination, but I was told that wasn't a list purpose:
are you saying it is? Why do you know better than others?

I think I've stated why enough for now. Texts about political theory
or conflict resolution might help you to understand it. The smallest
(maybe cheapest) I've here is Nigel Risner "It's a Zoo Around Here"
but I don't know where that's available now.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: My platform

[Angus Lees]

At Thu, 10 Mar 2005 03:43:48 +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> > My sincere apologies for the delay.
> Note up front: I have not yet looked at your platform.
[...]
> Could you please state in public that you did not use the delay in
> any way to gain an advantage by looking over the others' platforms
> and the ensuing discussion?

I did not use the delay in any way to gain an advantage by looking
over the others' platforms and the ensuing discussion.  (I was too
busy writing the platform!)

I understand your concerns, but now that you've had time to read my
platform, I hope they no longer remain.


At Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:25:01 +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> > I have a few ideas about how to improve communication within Debian
> > and I will try to bring an attitude of tolerance and more efficient
> > communication to the mailing lists.
> Could you please be more specific and give us more details about
> these ideas?

Sure.  (I hope you don't plan to choose your next DPL based on their
undeveloped personal ideas for mailing list policies, however)

Like most other Debian Developers, I think we have an unhelpful
culture of flaming, ad hominem attacks and general "posturing" on our
lists.  Improving this culture is going to be difficult, and our
noisiest contributors are the ones that are going to be most affected.

Given Debian's size and geographical distribution, I think holding
more in-person meetings is not going to make much difference to the
lists.  It would cost US$millions to bring every developer to the one
place, so clearly only regional gatherings are possible.  We already
have various debconfs that bring American and European developers
together (and those of us in less densely populated parts of the
planet do the best we can), and yet clearly the tone of the mailing
lists has not improved.

As a general strategy, I'd like to move a lot of the actual discussion
off the mailing lists and into some higher bandwidth, higher turnover
medium.  For small focussed teams, in-person meetings such as the
recent one between release and ftp-master teams are the ideal and
should of course be continued.  As I mention in my brief
"debian-thoughts" article (linked from my platform), something I'd
like to explore is VoIP - now that the tools and the bandwidth seem to
be available.  Even IRC, with its famed ability to waste time, seems
to somehow avoid the nastiness of public mailing lists.

The approach I think is going to have the most dramatic impact here is
of course mailing list moderation.  Although some people are hotly
opposed to this form of "censorship", this is something I believe the
project would benefit from and something we need to experiment with.
I know the listmasters have some ideas here and there is obviously
huge variation in possible algorithms - I would think different lists
might even want different policies.  I think this is a discussion we
need to have and I think its an area where we need to feel confident
to try out different ideas, make mistakes and not be afraid to roll
them back.

-- 
 - Gus


pgpsOqv9XzZg6.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> The debian-women list FAQ is on http://women.alioth.debian.org/faqs/
> and the odd policy is under "Miscellaneous" thus:
> 
>Just like every other online community, there will probably
>be the occasional troll. Do not make the mistake of treating
>them like rational human beings. Ignore them and focus on
>positive discussions instead.

The idea to ignore trolls is hardly new, or unusual.  Nor is it a
"policy", in the sense that anyone is ordered to ignore them under
pain of expulsion.

> Equally, claims that a policy doesn't exist should be retracted
> when you are shown the policy. Furthermore, jelly is good.

There is no policy there.  There is advice to ignore people who are
failing to contribute usefully. Nothing more.

If you think this is *wrong*, then why?  Because you have a right to
be responded to no matter what you say, even when you are hostile to
the purposes the list was created for?


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > See top and tail of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > (also at http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005/03/msg00471.html )
> > which is as explicit as it will get for now. Not enough time.
> Nothing in there is a FAQ, to which you referred.  Nor does it say
> anything more than some people won't respond to you and the reasons.

The debian-women list FAQ is on http://women.alioth.debian.org/faqs/
and the odd policy is under "Miscellaneous" thus:

   Just like every other online community, there will probably
   be the occasional troll. Do not make the mistake of treating
   them like rational human beings. Ignore them and focus on
   positive discussions instead.

   One very useful document that everyone subscribing to the
   list should read is: Searching for Safety Online: Managing
   "Trolling" in a Feminist Forum.

> This sounds like [random fiction]
> I notice that your constant refrain when people get a little to close
> here is that you suddenly beg off and claim not enough time.

Rubbish. Close to what? You are mostly just contradicting,
while attributing randomly invented opinions to me and asking
very vague questions. This is a busy week, but there's a limited
window before the DPL vote, so I stay on list, but ignore you
except for points of information.

> Claims like there being a "policy" which is in the "list FAQ" need to
> be substantiated or rescinded, not just repeated and then when you are
> asked for evidence you refer to your *own* message in which you once
> more assert the existence of some policy which does not, in fact,
> exist.

Equally, claims that a policy doesn't exist should be retracted
when you are shown the policy. Furthermore, jelly is good.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > So then what is your complaint about the "debate-killing silence
> > policy"?  Maybe you should be more explicit.
> 
> See top and tail of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> (also at http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005/03/msg00471.html )
> which is as explicit as it will get for now. Not enough time.

Nothing in there is a FAQ, to which you referred.  Nor does it say
anything more than some people won't respond to you and the reasons.
This sounds like you are upset beacuse you think people have some kind
of obligation to respond.  They don't.

I notice that your constant refrain when people get a little to close
here is that you suddenly beg off and claim not enough time.

Claims like there being a "policy" which is in the "list FAQ" need to
be substantiated or rescinded, not just repeated and then when you are
asked for evidence you refer to your *own* message in which you once
more assert the existence of some policy which does not, in fact,
exist.

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So then what is your complaint about the "debate-killing silence
> policy"?  Maybe you should be more explicit.

See top and tail of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
(also at http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005/03/msg00471.html )
which is as explicit as it will get for now. Not enough time.

I think we've seen that also elsewhere in debian and it's part of
why the "hard" moderation for lists suggested by some candidates
makes me uneasy.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > For example, "Searching for Safety Online" (which recommends
> > > "pro-active interventions") has been used to justify the
> > > debate-killing silence policy in the List FAQ, which seems just
> > > plain broken.
> > Wait, you think that people have an obligation to reply to your
> > messages, or else you are being censored?
> 
> No, neither of those.

So then what is your complaint about the "debate-killing silence
policy"?  Maybe you should be more explicit.




-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > For example, "Searching for Safety Online" (which recommends
> > "pro-active interventions") has been used to justify the
> > debate-killing silence policy in the List FAQ, which seems just
> > plain broken.
> Wait, you think that people have an obligation to reply to your
> messages, or else you are being censored?

No, neither of those.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> For example, "Searching for Safety Online" (which recommends
> "pro-active interventions") has been used to justify the
> debate-killing silence policy in the List FAQ, which seems just
> plain broken.

Wait, you think that people have an obligation to reply to your
messages, or else you are being censored?


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Erinn Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > could get a voice within the debian-women culture. Probably
> > a lot of the time that will be directing to FAQs or codes,
> > but there's always something not covered there. Using a
> > smaller number of people makes it easier to spot new conduct
> > FAQs without overwhelming the list while people acculturate(?).
> Yes. IIRC, this was applied to you which you disliked -- many of us
> attempted to speak to you off-list and tell you why your on-list attempts
> at engaging us weren't working. Alas...

It wasn't applied to me. I suddenly had numerous people contacting
me on- and off-list and I found most of them pretty offensive.
That's why I suggested a troll advisor: part announcement, part
greeter.

> > I think you've not felt the need because debian-women hasn't
> > been communicating with the rest of the project as much as when
> > Amaya sent out that mailshot.
> This is false. We regularly send updates to DWN (which we've already
> established you don't read, but that's not our fault). Many members of DW,
> specifically people in charge of it, are not DDs yet so we don't send
> emails to d-d-a (yet).

Amaya's mailshot is a larger message to a larger number of
DDs than anything DW have sent out since, isn't it? I think
"debian-women hasn't been communicating with the rest of
the project as much" is still true despite some updates in
"not an intra-project-communications medium".  (quote from
master:/home/debian/archive/debian-dwn/debian-dwn.200408.gz)

If you want to communicate with debian, DWN isn't it. I'm sure
there are friendly DDs who will send important news to d-d-a
if asked. Even I would, but we'd probably disagree what's
important. Please appoint one.

> I think all we learned was to ignore people we consider destructive to our
> goals. So yeah, I'm pretty sure that was the best thing. [...]

We disagree, then. I think DW learned to hide more.

> Something you may not be understanding is that we have had these debates
> about a thousand times. They are not interesting, new, or fun. [...]

No political decision is ever beyond scrutiny. If you don't want
scrutiny on the DW list, then just direct it elsewhere, please.
Don't participate if you think it's irrelevant.

There was some confusion about the right place, back then.

> Well, I've said my piece and don't plan to comment anymore. I've also set
> the M-f-T accordingly for those who wish to continue the discussion.

I think that's unhelpful, like the old usenet habit of setting FUs
to alt.flame or AST. debian-project might be more appropriate.

I had hoped more DPL candidates would weigh in. Maybe there'll be
more in the debate, or maybe they're ashamed of their views now. ;-)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Erinn Clark]

* MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005:03:10 14:01 +]: 
> I was pretty sure I put at least one suggestion through a bug
> tracker. My memory is not brilliant. Others were almost all
> off-list because of the atmosphere, so can't be shown in public
> and that means some here wouldn't believe it. :-/

There were suggestions you posted to the list. The bug you filed had to do
with how the website was licensed so it may be on alioth's BTS somewhere.
Well, I assume it was you -- it was filed anonymously.

> That's almost it, but there was also that the "detector" (I think
> I meant "troll advisor" but I'm not sure whether I used that
> name) should inform $PERSON off-list and advise them how they
> could get a voice within the debian-women culture. Probably
> a lot of the time that will be directing to FAQs or codes,
> but there's always something not covered there. Using a
> smaller number of people makes it easier to spot new conduct
> FAQs without overwhelming the list while people acculturate(?).

Yes. IIRC, this was applied to you which you disliked -- many of us
attempted to speak to you off-list and tell you why your on-list attempts
at engaging us weren't working. Alas...

> I think you've not felt the need because debian-women hasn't
> been communicating with the rest of the project as much as when
> Amaya sent out that mailshot. 

This is false. We regularly send updates to DWN (which we've already
established you don't read, but that's not our fault). Many members of DW,
specifically people in charge of it, are not DDs yet so we don't send
emails to d-d-a (yet).

> Is this because debian-women learnt from the response? Do you feel the
> group learnt the best thing?

I think all we learned was to ignore people we consider destructive to our
goals. So yeah, I'm pretty sure that was the best thing.

> > I don't consider ignoring people who seem to be out to shut down what we're
> > working on "broken" though. You may be enlightened by what you call
> > "debates", but many people (including myself) consider them draining,
> > pointless arguments, which may explain some of our silence in this thread
> > as well.
> 
> There are points to them, in both directions, although sometimes
> the noise gets high here. Refusing to accept debate reinforces
> my impression of debian-women as irrationally stubborn. I find
> this quite amusing: my complaints to you seem similar to Sven's
> complaints to debian-legal.

Something you may not be understanding is that we have had these debates
about a thousand times. They are not interesting, new, or fun. They're
boring and counter-productive.

> > [...] I do not think that, due to their contributions, any of us would be
> > opposed to having them on the website. [...]
> 
> Wow! That wasn't the impression I got last time I asked. If I
> submit a patch to http://women.alioth.debian.org/involvement/
> that reflects that, will you accept it? (Actually, how do I
> make a patch for that?)

The entire bio section needs to be rewritten; I'll work on it later. I'd
look at a patch but I may or may not accept it, depending on how much I
decide to change the text.

> I'm uninterested in the debian-women group 

I agree. I find myself wishing you would pay more attention to us. 

> I reiterate that the "silence" policy hinders you. I wish I
> could find the right campaign note here, but my workspace is
> a mess today. It suggests a short, polite, closed dismissal
> works better than trying to ignore their view, which fits with
> preserving "democratic possibility" or "political possibility"
> as a way to avoid conflict. Do you know that idea too?

Sure. I will employee this tactic from now on. :)

> Silence beats getting the flamethrower out, but it's not best
> practice.

Well, I've said my piece and don't plan to comment anymore. I've also set
the M-f-T accordingly for those who wish to continue the discussion.

-- 
off the chain like a rebellious guanine nucleotide


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Erinn Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005:03:10 10:33 +]:=20
> > Some of my suggestions have been accepted previously. Damned
> > if I can find the right bug tracker entries for them, though.
> Yeah, a bug tracker might be nice, but it seems a bit overboard [...]

I was pretty sure I put at least one suggestion through a bug
tracker. My memory is not brilliant. Others were almost all
off-list because of the atmosphere, so can't be shown in public
and that means some here wouldn't believe it. :-/

> > This is a lower priority than some other tasks (package review
> > and upload, for example) and I feel progress is impeded by some
> > irrational or uncommunicative people. For example, "Searching
> > for Safety Online" (which recommends "pro-active interventions")
> > has been used to justify the debate-killing silence policy in
> > the List FAQ, which seems just plain broken.
> IIRC, you recommended having someone designated as a sort of "troll
> detector" or similar who would decide that $PERSON wasn't worth responding
> too and announce it to the list. Luckily we haven't had to resort to any
> similar measures since last year. [...]

That's almost it, but there was also that the "detector" (I think
I meant "troll advisor" but I'm not sure whether I used that
name) should inform $PERSON off-list and advise them how they
could get a voice within the debian-women culture. Probably
a lot of the time that will be directing to FAQs or codes,
but there's always something not covered there. Using a
smaller number of people makes it easier to spot new conduct
FAQs without overwhelming the list while people acculturate(?).

I think you've not felt the need because debian-women hasn't
been communicating with the rest of the project as much as when
Amaya sent out that mailshot. Is this because debian-women learnt
from the response? Do you feel the group learnt the best thing?

> I don't consider ignoring people who seem to be out to shut down what we're
> working on "broken" though. You may be enlightened by what you call
> "debates", but many people (including myself) consider them draining,
> pointless arguments, which may explain some of our silence in this thread
> as well.

There are points to them, in both directions, although sometimes
the noise gets high here. Refusing to accept debate reinforces
my impression of debian-women as irrationally stubborn. I find
this quite amusing: my complaints to you seem similar to Sven's
complaints to debian-legal.

> Well, that is fine, but there are also some things you are unaware of as a
> result of your lack of time / interest.

Sure, so I thought it was idle. After a claim d-w is good at
communications, I asked questions about the stuff I last heard
happening and got flamed for that by Matthew Palmer in
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>. Maybe I shouldn't have
put my other stuff in the same mail, but we can cut mails.

> [...] I do not think that, due to their contributions, any of us would be
> opposed to having them on the website. [...]

Wow! That wasn't the impression I got last time I asked. If I
submit a patch to http://women.alioth.debian.org/involvement/
that reflects that, will you accept it? (Actually, how do I
make a patch for that?)

> How we function is pretty basic: negativity is uncalled for and we don't
> respond well to it, if at all. As time goes on we evolve to meet certain
> desires or needs as they arise. Requesting -- nay, demanding -- we evolve to
> meet your needs when you have not shown any vested interest in the group in
> any way, nor do you wish to contribute anything positive, is sure to be met
> with silence at best, hostility at worst. (I discourage the latter and I
> think we've improved in that area as well.)

I'm uninterested in the debian-women group and don't wish to
contribute anything which you consider positive yet because I
feel I basically disagree with you in the direction it's heading.
Equally, because I'm uninterested in the particular group,
I don't intend to harm it, but I will discourage acts which I
am interested in and think harmful.

I reiterate that the "silence" policy hinders you. I wish I
could find the right campaign note here, but my workspace is
a mess today. It suggests a short, polite, closed dismissal
works better than trying to ignore their view, which fits with
preserving "democratic possibility" or "political possibility"
as a way to avoid conflict. Do you know that idea too?

Silence beats getting the flamethrower out, but it's not best
practice.  A difficulty of words is that it's not as obvious
whether excitement is from fight or progress, especially when
we're not sharing a common culture. That isn't a good argument
for monoculture, in my opinion, nor for silence.

-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Subscribed to this list. No need to Cc, thanks.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL P

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Erinn Clark]

* MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005:03:10 10:33 +]: 
> Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 10, 2005 at 02:36:49AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> > > If it's fair to call one-sided example genders on www.debian as
> > > a bug, let's call it a bug where it happens across all debian.
> > That's a fair call.  So are you going to follow d-women's example, get
> > involved in the project you feel is a problem, and help to provide
> > corrective action? [...]
> 
> Some of my suggestions have been accepted previously. Damned
> if I can find the right bug tracker entries for them, though.

Yeah, a bug tracker might be nice, but it seems a bit overboard for what we
do. The community is small enough that we can fairly easily track stuff
already. And yes, you did suggest some helpful things before. :)

> This is a lower priority than some other tasks (package review
> and upload, for example) and I feel progress is impeded by some
> irrational or uncommunicative people. For example, "Searching
> for Safety Online" (which recommends "pro-active interventions")
> has been used to justify the debate-killing silence policy in
> the List FAQ, which seems just plain broken.

IIRC, you recommended having someone designated as a sort of "troll
detector" or similar who would decide that $PERSON wasn't worth responding
too and announce it to the list. Luckily we haven't had to resort to any
similar measures since last year. 

I don't consider ignoring people who seem to be out to shut down what we're
working on "broken" though. You may be enlightened by what you call
"debates", but many people (including myself) consider them draining,
pointless arguments, which may explain some of our silence in this thread
as well. 

> So, I have not contributed for some time.  There are more
> welcoming and encouraging parts of the project which also need
> help. I call on the debian-women leaders to make it welcoming
> and rebalance tolerance, but here I'm really interested in what
> the DPL candidates would do about topics this raises, if anything.

Well, that is fine, but there are also some things you are unaware of as a
result of your lack of time / interest.

One of these things is that the project has evolved since last year -- in
August it was only two months old and didn't take kindly to basically
having two attacks on it within a short period of time. It took a bit of
effort to remotivate ourselves to get it working. Now it's a fairly vibrant
and positive community and, to address some of your more specific concerns,
there are a fair amount of men also working on the project. They have full
access and total freedom to do as they please to the website and so forth
and I do not think that, due to their contributions, any of us would be
opposed to having them on the website. However, the topic has not come up
and I think it's silly to forcefully encourage them to list themselves --
we don't even do that with the women on the profiles page. They approach
us and if we think they've contributed enough to Debian and are active
members of Debian Women, they are put there.

How we function is pretty basic: negativity is uncalled for and we don't
respond well to it, if at all. As time goes on we evolve to meet certain
desires or needs as they arise. Requesting -- nay, demanding -- we evolve to
meet your needs when you have not shown any vested interest in the group in
any way, nor do you wish to contribute anything positive, is sure to be met
with silence at best, hostility at worst. (I discourage the latter and I
think we've improved in that area as well.)

-- 
off the chain like a rebellious guanine nucleotide


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2005 at 02:36:49AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> > If it's fair to call one-sided example genders on www.debian as
> > a bug, let's call it a bug where it happens across all debian.
> That's a fair call.  So are you going to follow d-women's example, get
> involved in the project you feel is a problem, and help to provide
> corrective action? [...]

Some of my suggestions have been accepted previously. Damned
if I can find the right bug tracker entries for them, though.
This is a lower priority than some other tasks (package review
and upload, for example) and I feel progress is impeded by some
irrational or uncommunicative people. For example, "Searching
for Safety Online" (which recommends "pro-active interventions")
has been used to justify the debate-killing silence policy in
the List FAQ, which seems just plain broken.

So, I have not contributed for some time.  There are more
welcoming and encouraging parts of the project which also need
help. I call on the debian-women leaders to make it welcoming
and rebalance tolerance, but here I'm really interested in what
the DPL candidates would do about topics this raises, if anything.

-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Subscribed to this list. No need to Cc, thanks.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > I think you're confusing that project with a web page. [...]
> 
> Not really. The project maintains the web page. The project
> has a mailing list. On both of these and some others, when a
> choice is made on how to include or exclude from something,
> sex is used as a primary decision-maker. This is despite what
> some of the reasonable members say or do about addressing wider
> issues not limited to one sex and that the project should avoid
> being sexist.

Nothing about the mailing list excludes people on the basis of
gender.  Both men and women are welcome to participate, provided they
stick on topic and are sympathetic with the goals of the mailing list.

Men are also welcome to suggest people to be listed on the profiles
page.  

Thomas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> linuxchix specifically exclude men from some meetings and
> facilities. Absence of a similar group was a feature. It's a
> shame that things deteriorated to the point one was created.

We don't have a group that excludes men from its meetings and
facilities.



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Matthew Palmer]

On Thu, Mar 10, 2005 at 02:36:49AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> If it's fair to call one-sided example genders on www.debian as
> a bug, let's call it a bug where it happens across all debian.

That's a fair call.  So are you going to follow d-women's example, get
involved in the project you feel is a problem, and help to provide
corrective action?  Remember that d-women isn't standing on the sidelines
shouting, they're involved in constructively correcting problems, in ways
which are not unnecessarily disruptive to the project as a whole.

- Matt


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: My platform

[martin f krafft]

Dear Angus:

In your platform, you state:

> I have a few ideas about how to improve communication within Debian
> and I will try to bring an attitude of tolerance and more efficient
> communication to the mailing lists.

Could you please be more specific and give us more details about
these ideas?

(sorry for the wrong reply-to)

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Amaya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.03.09.2107 +0100]:
> > Why is it called debian-women? 
> 
> Because the effort, the project, is aimed at increasing the
> involvement of women in Debian. So debian-women as a name made
> perfect sense :)

I had a deeper question in mind, but failed to be clear.

> > I fully support debian-women as there is obviously demand for it.
> 
> Thanks for the support, even if lukewarm.

lukewarm it may be. But then you will never hear me voice a sexist
opinion. Anyway, I feel like the topic is a hot coal and I'd rather
put it down and sit around the fire than to toss it around more.

But before we get out the marshmallows, I would like to commend you
on the web site, which is, in fact, definitely a resource to all
Debian people. I wish I had known about it a little earlier, then
I could have put more references into my book. Anyway, I am trying
to convince the publisher, now that I've seen some of it... after
all, I did fix my .procmailrc this afternoon, and should now
actually be receiving debian-women email...

/me whacks himself over the head

(I was a first-day subscriber too...)

> > However, I often wonder why sets of problems are solved under a
> > "superficial" label, when they really exist way further down the
> > crust?
> 
> I don't think I understand your claims here.

The problem is that Debian is sometimes like the Wild West. You're
in for a rough time, often, and that should change, whether to
increase women's motivation to join, or make the whole place feel
more cozy. I am not trying to deny my own responsibiltiy in the
matter...

> > If so, then why not solve the problem further down (through
> > sensibilisation and competence to not answer every flamebait or
> > take things personally in such public formums), 
> 
> Excuse me, are we talking about the same public forums? :)

I am afraid we are.

> I have little hope for that to happen.

... but it could be something that debian-women may be able to
successfully pull off. In German there is a saying: "the wiser
concedes the ground." I wish people (including myself) would live by
it. Maybe debian-women have a better strategy at "implementing"
this?

> This is actually what you were answering to. There's no sex
> segregation. But there's a strong emphasis in *visivility*.

Great. This is the answer I wanted. Thanks.

> I'd love to see groups like [...] debian-nudists (gnudists?)

no, please!

>  .''`.   What does not destroy me, makes me stronger. - Nietzsche

(he said "kill", not "destroy", and "harder", not "stronger")

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: My platform

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Angus Lees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.03.08.0419 +0100]:
> Now available at http://people.debian.org/~gus/dpl-platform.html
> 
> My sincere apologies for the delay.

Note up front: I have not yet looked at your platform.

I am the first to understand what it means to be hit by deadlines.
However, isn't a late submission of the platform a little unfair to
the other candidates? After all, you now had ample time to look over
theirs, read the lengthy threads on this list, and try to address
the points over which the others were criticised in a way that seems
to suit the general masses?

I am sorry if this sounds overly inculpatory, but I hope you will
understand my concerns. Could you please state in public that you
did not use the delay in any way to gain an advantage by looking
over the others' platforms and the ensuing discussion?

(maybe I am overly cautious/paranoid/pedantic/dorky. please excuse)

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And, personally, I really don't see the relevance in the context of
> this web page.  If you're tired, and want to just get stuff done, don't
> you have your own web pages? [...]

A variation on the "you can discriminate in your own space" suggestion.
Not a good approach to stopping discrimination, though.

> I think you're confusing that project with a web page. [...]

Not really. The project maintains the web page. The project
has a mailing list. On both of these and some others, when a
choice is made on how to include or exclude from something,
sex is used as a primary decision-maker. This is despite what
some of the reasonable members say or do about addressing wider
issues not limited to one sex and that the project should avoid
being sexist.

[The "this discrimination doesn't hurt men" argument and then...]

> I think you should be fair about this -- either bring up a specific
> concrete problem where someone is being injured, or admit that you
> don't have any such issue in mind.  
> 
> "You didn't put the people I want on your page" sounds more like the

If it's fair to call one-sided example genders on www.debian as
a bug, let's call it a bug where it happens across all debian.
Is it fair? The www example genders weren't shown to be
concretely injuring anyone before being changed, either.

> whining of a petulant child than a serious issue.

Play the ball, not the man.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Raul Miller]

> Amaya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...]
> > [...] As there's is absolutely no seggregation in the debian-women
> > environment, men can benefit, and I'm sure *do* benefit, from this
> > wellcoming climate too. 

On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 11:52:50PM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> Is a bus with a whites-only section at the front segregated?

Is a bus with a white person sitting in a seat segregated?

I guess I hope you can see some of the differences, between a web page,
a bus, and a bus seat.  One of the issues with a bus is that there tend
to be more fumes in back than in the front.

But the big difference is that the distance you have to walk to the back
of the bus is quite a bit further than the difference you have to walk
to the front of the bus (given that you're getting on, at the front),
and there was this one little old lady who sat down at the front of
the bus, after she got on.  The results of that choice are what you're
presumably referring to when you talk about a bus with a whites-only
section at the front.

And, personally, I really don't see the relevance in the context of
this web page.  If you're tired, and want to just get stuff done, don't
you have your own web pages?  It's not like you have to get on someone
else's web page to go somewhere.  It's not like this web page is forcing
you onto some other server, or stealing bandwidth you could have been
using on the same server.

> Really, it is simple to make the debian-women project not
> segregated, but it seems clear from
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2004/08/msg00100.html
> that segregation is intended for some parts. Why wouldn't
> profiling friendly male contributors help?

I think you're confusing that project with a web page.

Anyways, if you want to profile friendly male contributors, I think you
should go ahead and do so.

But the kinds of segregation you're talking about has little to do with
the sorts of unfair segregation you're alluding to.

I think you should be fair about this -- either bring up a specific
concrete problem where someone is being injured, or admit that you
don't have any such issue in mind.  

"You didn't put the people I want on your page" sounds more like the
whining of a petulant child than a serious issue.

-- 
Raul


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Ean Schuessler]

The secret is out. A new cabal is trying to cleanse Debian of women through 
pure irritation and MJ is in on the action. Gentlemen, steel yourselves for a 
future consisting entirely of endless pedantic hair-splitting over policy, 
very little actual technical work and homoerotic all-male skinny dipping geek 
parties at exotic locales.*

Dammit man! It's a list of women in Debian! Men are not women! Get a hobby!

*Andreas... I hate to bust your balls but the concept of a Debian Developer 
skinny dipping party turns my stomach. I cannot resist its comedic lure.

On Wednesday 09 March 2005 5:52 pm, MJ Ray wrote:
> In fact, I suspect the correlation is not very strong.
>
> > [...] more of a personal issue "ok, so there's the linuxchix, what's
> > wrong with Debian?"
>
> linuxchix specifically exclude men from some meetings and
> facilities. Absence of a similar group was a feature. It's a
> shame that things deteriorated to the point one was created.
>
> > [...] As there's is absolutely no seggregation in the debian-women
> > environment, men can benefit, and I'm sure *do* benefit, from this
> > wellcoming climate too.
>
> Is a bus with a whites-only section at the front segregated?
>
> Really, it is simple to make the debian-women project not
> segregated, but it seems clear from
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2004/08/msg00100.html
> that segregation is intended for some parts. Why wouldn't
> profiling friendly male contributors help?

-- 
Ean Schuessler, CTO
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
214-720-0700 x 315
Brainfood, Inc.
http://www.brainfood.com


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Amaya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...]
> When I first became a developer, I found debian-devel frightening,
> hostile and very intimidating, I must admit this was not so because of
> gender issues. [...]

In fact, I suspect the correlation is not very strong.

> [...] more of a personal issue "ok, so there's the linuxchix, what's wrong
> with Debian?" 

linuxchix specifically exclude men from some meetings and
facilities. Absence of a similar group was a feature. It's a
shame that things deteriorated to the point one was created.

> [...] As there's is absolutely no seggregation in the debian-women
> environment, men can benefit, and I'm sure *do* benefit, from this
> wellcoming climate too. 

Is a bus with a whites-only section at the front segregated?

Really, it is simple to make the debian-women project not
segregated, but it seems clear from
http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2004/08/msg00100.html
that segregation is intended for some parts. Why wouldn't
profiling friendly male contributors help?

-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Subscribed to this list. No need to Cc, thanks.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Matthew Palmer]

On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 05:55:48PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.03.06.0242 +0100]:
> > But debian-women contributors include both men and women.
> 
> Why is it called debian-women?

One of the benefits of starting a project is that you get to choose the
name.

- Matt


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> also sprach Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.03.06.0242 +0100]:
> > But debian-women contributors include both men and women.
> 
> Why is it called debian-women? Aren't there also men, some shy, some
> merely put off by the roughness of this project, or many other
> reasons, who would welcome a warmer environment?

Because its goal is to address specifically the concerns of women who
have found Debian forbidding (or something like that).  Both men and
women can contribute to the understanding of and solutions for these
problems.  The *topic* is women, the *contributors* are both men and
women.

> Or: is the problem really sexism? Or is it just that the environment
> is not particularly friendly to women, who have different
> preferences for social interaction than men?

Debian-women's charter does not contain any assumptions I can see
about what the source of the problem is.  


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Daniel Ruoso]

Em Qua, 2005-03-09 às 17:07, Amaya escreveu:
> When I first became a developer, I found debian-devel frightening,
> hostile and very intimidating, I must admit this was not so because of
> gender issues.

I would like to remember everybody the mencal flamewar (one of the most
stupid flamewars I have ever seen on debian-devel), that *was* a gender
issue.

[]'s


daniel


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Amaya]

Hi Martin!

 

martin f krafft wrote:
> Why is it called debian-women? 

Because the effort, the project, is aimed at increasing the involvement
of women in Debian. So debian-women as a name made perfect sense :)

> Aren't there also men, some shy, some merely put off by the roughness
> of this project, or many other reasons, who would welcome a warmer
> environment?

No, you are wrong, that's debian-devel :)
When I first became a developer, I found debian-devel frightening,
hostile and very intimidating, I must admit this was not so because of
gender issues. And I am not a person that is usually described as shy,
or put off by roughness (hmm, maybe roughness does put me off in the
context of a collaborative effort, but I am not specially affected by
it). 

> I fully support debian-women as there is obviously demand for it.

Thanks for the support, even if lukewarm. When I first started thinking
about women in Debian I had no idea there was such demmand at all, it
was more of a personal issue "ok, so there's the linuxchix, what's wrong
with Debian?" 
Debian offered some numbers that I was not able to easily obtain from
other projects, such as a total amount of developers, and an estimate of
females in there. (Worrying figures, BTW). Meeting Susan in Debconf 2 at
Toronto was key, had she been more visible in Debian, at least to me, I
would have probably never given the gender issue that much thought, or
maybe I would :) Visibility is key. That's another reason why the
project is not called Deian Love (as the project called Gnome Love) or
Debian Janitors, or even Debian Mentors (sounds familiar?).
Visible women in the project make other women feel better about using
and helping Debian. Other women may need a more wellcoming environment,
and that's perfectly fine with me, and very desirable, on the other
hand. My needs were different, but if Debian Women is also providing a
less frightening entry way into Debian, I couldn't feel any prouder
:) As there's is absolutely no seggregation in the debian-women
environment, men can benefit, and I'm sure *do* benefit, from this
wellcoming climate too. 

> However, I often wonder why sets of problems are solved under a
> "superficial" label, when they really exist way further down the
> crust?

I don't think I understand your claims here.

> Or: is the problem really sexism? 

No, IMHO, that's just part of the problem.

> Or is it just that the environment is not particularly friendly to
> women, who have different preferences for social interaction than men?

That looks like a strong point too.

> If so, then why not solve the problem further down (through
> sensibilisation and competence to not answer every flamebait or take
> things personally in such public formums), 

Excuse me, are we talking about the same public forums? :)
I have little hope for that to happen.
On the other hand, I have the feeling I will be originating a huge
trolling thread, just as the last time I posted to debian-vote regarding
this same subject one year ago :) At this point, this thread probably
belongs somewhere else... 

> rather than segregating the sexes explicitly?

Again:

> also sprach Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [2005.03.06.0242 +0100]:
> > But debian-women contributors include both men and women.

This is actually what you were answering to. There's no sex segregation.
But there's a strong emphasis in *visivility*.

> And most of the above applies -- to varying degrees -- to other
> classifications of the Debian supporters, be it language, ice cream
> favourites, or cdbs-vs-debhelper preference.

I'd love to see groups like debian-chocolate-lovers, debian-nudists
(gnudists?), debian-corporate, or debian-world-domination emerge. 
The way I see it, there's more to Debian than just a technical side. And
this applies to Free Software efforts in general. There's a community
behind Debian (what I usually call The Big Disfunctional Family or the
Cult, in my jokes) that makes us different and unique. Taking care of
the social aspects of Debian is important to the health of the project

  (specially now that we know Sarge will never be released and have
  become just a software repository for others to pull exceptionally
  well packaged software from. No pun intended here, really)  

Just as key as releasing, qa-ing, bug fixing, trolling and
ftpmasters-bashing. So while technical workgroups are naturally
wellcome, such as debian-custom, or debian-bsd (did I say wellcome?) ;),
I find that the debian-women project has a different nature and 
so does debian-user-spanish, debian-curiosa or debian-uk.  

At this point I can't remember the topic anymore and I have no idea what
I really wanted to say in the first place... :)

Oh, yes. So all these groups of Debian supporters, be it language, ice
cream favourites, or vi-vs-emacs preference are good for the project. 
This makes me remeber Andreas' talk in Oslo: Why tetrinet is good for
Debian: 

Re: My platform

[David Nusinow]

On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 11:14:26AM +0100, Michael Banck wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 12:54:47AM -0600, Ean Schuessler wrote:
> > Oh. Ooops. I'm not running for DPL am I? Uh, will one of you guys add 
> > "database of free software capable equipment" to your platform? I'll help 
> > write it.
> 
> Just do it[tm].  You don't need a platform, vote or anything for that.

I don't know how advanced it is (probably not at all) but I stumbled across
this alioth project the other day: http://alioth.debian.org/projects/hwdb/.
It's definitely something worth doing.

 - David Nusinow


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.03.06.0242 +0100]:
> But debian-women contributors include both men and women.

Why is it called debian-women? Aren't there also men, some shy, some
merely put off by the roughness of this project, or many other
reasons, who would welcome a warmer environment?

I fully support debian-women as there is obviously demand for it.
However, I often wonder why sets of problems are solved under
a "superficial" label, when they really exist way further down the
crust?

Or: is the problem really sexism? Or is it just that the environment
is not particularly friendly to women, who have different
preferences for social interaction than men?

If so, then why not solve the problem further down (through
sensibilisation and competence to not answer every flamebait or take
things personally in such public formums), rather than segregating
the sexes explicitly?

And most of the above applies -- to varying degrees -- to other
classifications of the Debian supporters, be it language, ice cream
favourites, or cdbs-vs-debhelper preference.

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi, Ben Burton wrote:

> 
>> I am concerned that a debian-nazi list ...
> 
> This means the argument ends now, right?

Given some of the questionable content on the site Jonathan Walther
maintains:
  No.

(Godwin's Law isn't invoked if the content it refers to is on-topic.)

-- 
Matthias Urlichs   |   {M:U} IT Design @ m-u-it.de   |  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi, Kevin B. McCarty wrote:

> MJ Ray wrote:
> 
>> Where are these articles posted? As a package sponsor, it could
>> be a useful resource for me and my maintainers. I didn't find
>> them anywhere obvious on http://www.debian.org/devel/join/
> 
> [ Locations, mostly on women.alioth.debian.org ]

The Web is about linking. Not being able to find them linked from the main
newmaint page isn't helpful -- arguably, people who know where to search
for them don't need them (as much).


Getting back on-topic: I don't know about you, but on *my* ballot Jonathan
Walther will be ranked directly below the "None of the above" and "Get me
the *censored* out of here" choices.

Just FYI.

-- 
Matthias Urlichs   |   {M:U} IT Design @ m-u-it.de   |  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: My platform

[Wouter Verhelst]

Op wo, 09-03-2005 te 09:00 +, schreef Henning Makholm:
> Scripsit Angus Lees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > I'm concerned that the long-term goal is going to suffer by forcing
> > users to make the choice between (a) going somewhere else or (b)
> > exposing themselves to poorly supported software from non-free.
> 
> "Exposing themselves???" Why do you think the software is
> intrinsically poorer simply because it is in non-free rather than in
> main?

He didn't say that; he said that the software is poorly supported in
non-free. And that is correct:
  * non-free is not autobuilt
  * non-free does not receive security updates
  * non-free does not end up on the CD-ROM images we distribute
(hence, users installing from CD-ROM because they have a bad
Internet connection /will/ have problems installing it).

-- 
 EARTH
 smog  |   bricks
 AIR  --  mud  -- FIRE
soda water |   tequila
 WATER
 -- with thanks to fortune


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: My platform

[Angus Lees]

I'm saying the goal is widespread adoption of free software and its
ideals.  We should tread carefully; if we alienate too many people
along the way we don't do our cause any favours.

-- 
 - Gus


pgpcveOCj07wW.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: My platform

[Bernhard R. Link]

* Angus Lees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [050309 05:18]:
> What I'm trying to say is that by
> removing all these things from main (imo) too quickly and too early,
> we have instead *encouraged* all our users to use non-free.

So non-free is evil, but non-free software is necessary. Thus we should
allow our users to use non-free software without using the non-free
section?
Or are you saying our users should not know they are using non-free
software, so they cannot get the idea they might want to use other
non-free software?
Or what are you trying to say?

Hochachtungsvoll,
Bernhard R. Link


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: My platform

[Henning Makholm]

Scripsit Angus Lees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> To give a concrete example: My laptop has an extremely comon centrino
> (ipw2200) wireless card.  To support this card under Debian/Linux, I
> need to install packages from contrib and download a firmware blob by
> hand.  To simply have the HTML4 specification easily available, I need
> to install packages from non-free.  What I'm trying to say is that by
> removing all these things from main (imo) too quickly and too early,
> we have instead *encouraged* all our users to use non-free.

It is not, as far as I am aware, a goal of the project to discourage
users from using the "non-free" archive. Perhaps RMS would like it to
be one of our goals, but I suppose what he would really like is to
discourage people from using not-free *software* no matter which
archive it is found in. Putting things that are actually not free into
main simply to keep people from adding the dirty words non-free to
their sources.list will not change the fact that they *are* using the
not-free things. It won't make RMS happier, it shouldn't make us
happier, and there is no reason whatsoever why it should make our
users happier.

What *is* our goal is to allow our users to *know* which non-free
software they are using. That goal merely requires us to label the
things we distribute as accurately as we can. If something is found to
be not free, it should be put in the non-free archive. No users will
be hurt by downloading it from there, compared to downloading it from
the main archive, it having been fradulently placed there by us.

> I'm concerned that the long-term goal is going to suffer by forcing
> users to make the choice between (a) going somewhere else or (b)
> exposing themselves to poorly supported software from non-free.

"Exposing themselves???" Why do you think the software is
intrinsically poorer simply because it is in non-free rather than in
main? The maintainer is the same, the organisation is the same, the
BTS is the same. The only thing that differs is the label, and the
label is worthless anyway if we do not strive to make it truthful.

-- 
Henning Makholm   "No one seems to know what
   distinguishes a bell from a whistle."


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: My platform

[Michael Banck]

On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 12:54:47AM -0600, Ean Schuessler wrote:
> Oh. Ooops. I'm not running for DPL am I? Uh, will one of you guys add 
> "database of free software capable equipment" to your platform? I'll help 
> write it.

Just do it[tm].  You don't need a platform, vote or anything for that.


Michael

-- 
Michael Banck
Debian Developer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: My platform

[Ean Schuessler]

I have the same God-forsaken wireless card in my laptop. In this day and age 
where there are dozens of 10Mbit wireless cores out there I managed to get 
suckered into buying a Centrino because Intel was deceptive about their 
support for Linux. Rather than bending our sensibilities to appease these 
companies we should provide a database of vendors who sell laptops that are 
verified to be 100% free-software supported. Hit 'em where it hurts, the 
wallet!

Oh. Ooops. I'm not running for DPL am I? Uh, will one of you guys add 
"database of free software capable equipment" to your platform? I'll help 
write it.

On Tuesday 08 March 2005 10:12 pm, Angus Lees wrote:
> To give a concrete example: My laptop has an extremely comon centrino
> (ipw2200) wireless card.  To support this card under Debian/Linux, I
> need to install packages from contrib and download a firmware blob by
> hand.  To simply have the HTML4 specification easily available, I need
> to install packages from non-free.  What I'm trying to say is that by
> removing all these things from main (imo) too quickly and too early,
> we have instead *encouraged* all our users to use non-free.  The best
> outcome is of course that these things are available under a licence
> we can all be happy with, but there is a clear distinction between
> these "grey area" cases and "really non-free" stuff like Macromedia
> flash plugins.  I'm concerned that the long-term goal is going to
> suffer by forcing users to make the choice between (a) going somewhere
> else or (b) exposing themselves to poorly supported software from
> non-free.

-- 
Ean Schuessler, CTO
Brainfood, Inc.
http://www.brainfood.com


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: My platform

[Angus Lees]

Right, we seem to agree quite well on the separation of the DPL's
personal opinions and the actions he should perform as DPL.  So your
concerns seem to boil down to two things:

 - You are not sure what I (personally) want to change about Debian.
 - You are concerned that I may (as DPL) want to undo the recent
   `interpretation of "free software"' GR.

To the latter, my few paragraphs must have been worded too strongly
because I do *not* want to undo the GR - both personally and
absolutely not as DPL.  It is a wonderful thing to strive for a "100%
Free" distribution.  What I was trying to get across is that if we
marginalise ourself by pushing for that goal too strongly and too
early, we run the risk of losing users and the broader community's
support.

To give a concrete example: My laptop has an extremely comon centrino
(ipw2200) wireless card.  To support this card under Debian/Linux, I
need to install packages from contrib and download a firmware blob by
hand.  To simply have the HTML4 specification easily available, I need
to install packages from non-free.  What I'm trying to say is that by
removing all these things from main (imo) too quickly and too early,
we have instead *encouraged* all our users to use non-free.  The best
outcome is of course that these things are available under a licence
we can all be happy with, but there is a clear distinction between
these "grey area" cases and "really non-free" stuff like Macromedia
flash plugins.  I'm concerned that the long-term goal is going to
suffer by forcing users to make the choice between (a) going somewhere
else or (b) exposing themselves to poorly supported software from
non-free.

What I (personally) would like to see happen is for Debian to keep the
"100% Free" goal in mind and do what is best going to get us to that
point.  Unfortunately, in the short term, I think that means making a
few careful compromises.


In answer to your first question about what I (personally) would like
to change about Debian, the answer is not a lot.  From within Debian
(particularly at DPL election time), its easy to get the view that
there are all sorts of horrible problems but the truth is that Debian
currently works.  At this moment, we have a slightly embarrassing
inability to declare a stable release and we have some people on our
mailing lists that like posturing in front of crowds, but Debian as a
technology and a community is in pretty good shape.  What I hope to do
as DPL is represent that community and explain that technology to the
outside world, and to do what I can to allow us to continue to grow.

If you really want to press the issue, I'm happy to give you my
personal opinions about any particular issue - but I'm loath to simply
write down any half-baked schemes just to illustrate that I have a
brain ;)  As DPL I would of course rely most heavily on the developers
already working in a particular area before arriving at a solution.
And yes, I consider this "mostly clean slate" approach a significant
advantage over other DPL candidates.

-- 
 - Gus


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: OT: Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about ?krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Marco d'Itri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sure, and the obituaries are a discrimination on the basis of death.

Not a type of descrimination that I object to, as I could easily
die if I wanted to. ($DEITY knows, I spend enough time keeping alive.)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: OT: Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about ?krooger's platform

[Marco d'Itri]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>No, I think you see it but you disagree whether the directory
>of women or the current list charter is discriminating on the
>basis of sex, and the severity or remedies of past incidents.
Sure, and the obituaries are a discrimination on the basis of death.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Questions about kroogers platform

[David Nusinow]

On Tue, Mar 08, 2005 at 01:03:32AM -0800, Jonathan Walther wrote:
> There are no differences.  The debian-women mailing list lacks focus,
> unity, and agreement.  On the one hand, people like Matthew Palmer say
> "we are already going forward quietly, taking effective action to change
> Debian from within".  On the other hand, there are Debian-Women
> contributors who are still saying "we still need to properly discuss,
> research, and come to agreement on what the problems ARE."

These things are not mutually exclusive. You can identify some of the problems
and work on them while continue to research what other problems are. 

 - David Nusinow


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: OT: Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Raul Miller]

On Tue, Mar 08, 2005 at 02:30:07AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> No, I think you see it but you disagree whether the directory
> of women or the current list charter is discriminating on the
> basis of sex, and the severity or remedies of past incidents.

There's pages in the mail archives where only people with certain names
can appear.  For that matter, newer developers can't show up on the
historical pages.  Discrimination, I tell you!

But what's really scary is that there's five of them!  They're taking
over, I tell you.  There's only a few hundreds of males, so us males
have to watch out, or they'll DO STUFF.  Like, um, put up a web page
that won't have us on it.  I quake in fear at the thought.

Discrimination by exclusion from a web page is truly a horrid practice.
We must do everything we can to stomp out this nasty practice.  I demand
that all debian pages be replaced by unauthenticated wiki (and, of
course, I'm not volunteering to do anything to make that happen --
any right minded person would see how correct this course of action is).

[For those without a sense of humor or without a good grasp of english:
I disagree with what I advocate above.  However I think that these
ideas, while perhaps overdone, are consistent with the idea of "web page
discrimination" being presented in this thread.]

-- 
Raul


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Questions about kroogers platform

[Wouter Verhelst]

Op di, 08-03-2005 te 01:03 -0800, schreef Jonathan Walther:
> [...]involve the consent of Debian as a whole.

There's your problem.

-- 
 EARTH
 smog  |   bricks
 AIR  --  mud  -- FIRE
soda water |   tequila
 WATER
 -- with thanks to fortune


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]