Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
On Saturday, 27 March 2021 9:51:40 PM AEDT Timo Weingärtner wrote: > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the > open letters on this subject is invited to do this in a personal capacity. > ---8<---8<---8<--- I support that. Thanks, Timo. -- All the best, Dmitry Smirnov GPG key : 4096R/52B6BBD953968D1B --- The end cannot justify the means for the simple and obvious reason that the means employed determine the nature of the ends produced. -- Aldous Huxley --- And how long a lockdown is enough? If we open now, will lockdown recur in autumn? Next year? Whenever authoritarianism so wishes? No dictatorship could imagine a better precedent for absolute control. -- https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1924.long :: BMJ 2020;369:m1924 "Should governments continue lockdown to slow the spread of covid-19?" signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Bart Martens a écrit le 28/03/2021 à 10:40 : On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 11:51:40AM +0100, Timo Weingärtner wrote: Updated text: ---8<---8<---8<--- The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the open letters on this subject is invited to do this in a personal capacity. ---8<---8<---8<--- Seconded. Seconded. _g. OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 11:51:40AM +0100, Timo Weingärtner wrote: > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the > open > letters on this subject is invited to do this in a personal capacity. > ---8<---8<---8<--- Seconded. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
* Steve Langasek: " Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms" (Sat, 27 Mar 2021 12:37:52 -0700): > On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 12:20:22PM +0100, Mathias Behrle wrote: > > > > Language quip: Not "invited to do this in person" (personally flying > > > > to wherever signatures are being gathered), but "in a personal > > > > capacity" or "as an individual action"... ? > > > > I think the intention was clear, but I'm fine with a version which > > > changes that part as suggested above and my seconds extends to such a > > > version. > > > Exactly my thoughts. I would be glad to hear from a native speaker if the > > wording is really capable of being misunderstood. Otherwise I just would let > > go. But I second also the proposed version, preferable using then "as an > > individual action". > > "in person" has a pretty unambiguous meaning in (American?) English > referring to physical presence, so is the wrong thing to say here for your > intent. Thanks, Steve, so we are on the safe side now. -- Mathias Behrle PGP/GnuPG key availabable from any keyserver, ID: 0xD6D09BE48405BBF6 AC29 7E5C 46B9 D0B6 1C71 7681 D6D0 9BE4 8405 BBF6 pgpcjEMb8cH9C.pgp Description: Digitale Signatur von OpenPGP
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 12:20:22PM +0100, Mathias Behrle wrote: > > > Language quip: Not "invited to do this in person" (personally flying > > > to wherever signatures are being gathered), but "in a personal > > > capacity" or "as an individual action"... ? > > I think the intention was clear, but I'm fine with a version which > > changes that part as suggested above and my seconds extends to such a > > version. > Exactly my thoughts. I would be glad to hear from a native speaker if the > wording is really capable of being misunderstood. Otherwise I just would let > go. But I second also the proposed version, preferable using then "as an > individual action". "in person" has a pretty unambiguous meaning in (American?) English referring to physical presence, so is the wrong thing to say here for your intent. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developer https://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
On March 27, 2021 7:15:39 PM GMT+05:30, Ulrike Uhlig wrote: >Hi > >On 27.03.21 14:01, Kurt Roeckx wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 01:56:08PM +0100, Timo Weingärtner wrote: >>> 27.03.21 13:03 Kurt Roeckx: I've added this option on the website. I'm still processing emails. Note that it's my interpretation that if changes are accepts that there is no need to second it again. If you don't agree with the changes need to say so, and which point and become the proposer of a new option and need to look for seconds again. Please let me know if there is something that's currently on the website that you don't agree with. >>> >>> The content is fine, maybe the headings could be improved to look >like (as a >>> recent example) in the systemd GR. >> >> I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm not really happy with the >> current wording of the option names. It's up to the one calling >> for vote to suggest the names. But I'm sure that any suggestions >> are welcome. > >If I understand correctly, "Choice 3: Ask Richard Stallman to resign" >could be renamed to Choice 3: "Do not sign the open letter, instead >issue a statement expressing Debian's disapproval and ask RMS to resign > >from his functions at the FSF" - making it clear what this is about? > This title would suit the option. Thanks >I think this is the option proposed by Sruthi, that's why I Cc:ed her >explicitly. > >The page is here: https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 > >Cheers! >Ulrike -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Hi! On 2021-03-27 at 11:51 (+01), Timo Weingärtner wrote: [...] > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the > open > letters on this subject is invited to do this in a personal capacity. > ---8<---8<---8<--- Seconded. -- Matteo F. Vescovi || Debian Developer GnuPG KeyID: 4096R/0x8062398983B2CF7A signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
On 3/27/21 9:01 AM, Kurt Roeckx wrote: > On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 01:56:08PM +0100, Timo Weingärtner wrote: >> Hallo Kurt Roeckx, >> >> 27.03.21 13:03 Kurt Roeckx: >>> I've added this option on the website. I'm still processing emails. >>> >>> Note that it's my interpretation that if changes are accepts that >>> there is no need to second it again. If you don't agree with the >>> changes need to say so, and which point and become the proposer of >>> a new option and need to look for seconds again. >>> >>> Please let me know if there is something that's currently on the >>> website that you don't agree with. >> >> The content is fine, maybe the headings could be improved to look like (as a >> recent example) in the systemd GR. > > I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm not really happy with the > current wording of the option names. It's up to the one calling > for vote to suggest the names. But I'm sure that any suggestions > are welcome. > Instead of "No statement, sign individual" this option could be titled "No official statement on this subject" Milan
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
On 3/27/21 6:51 AM, Timo Weingärtner wrote: > > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the > open > letters on this subject is invited to do this in a personal capacity. > ---8<---8<---8<--- > > An alternative would be removing the last sentence all together, how do you > think about that? > I would not remove the last sentence but instead of saying "do this in a personal capacity" I would say "do so in a personal capacity" to make it sound more natural. Milan
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Hi On 27.03.21 14:01, Kurt Roeckx wrote: On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 01:56:08PM +0100, Timo Weingärtner wrote: 27.03.21 13:03 Kurt Roeckx: I've added this option on the website. I'm still processing emails. Note that it's my interpretation that if changes are accepts that there is no need to second it again. If you don't agree with the changes need to say so, and which point and become the proposer of a new option and need to look for seconds again. Please let me know if there is something that's currently on the website that you don't agree with. The content is fine, maybe the headings could be improved to look like (as a recent example) in the systemd GR. I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm not really happy with the current wording of the option names. It's up to the one calling for vote to suggest the names. But I'm sure that any suggestions are welcome. If I understand correctly, "Choice 3: Ask Richard Stallman to resign" could be renamed to Choice 3: "Do not sign the open letter, instead issue a statement expressing Debian's disapproval and ask RMS to resign from his functions at the FSF" - making it clear what this is about? I think this is the option proposed by Sruthi, that's why I Cc:ed her explicitly. The page is here: https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 Cheers! Ulrike
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 01:56:08PM +0100, Timo Weingärtner wrote: > Hallo Kurt Roeckx, > > 27.03.21 13:03 Kurt Roeckx: > > I've added this option on the website. I'm still processing emails. > > > > Note that it's my interpretation that if changes are accepts that > > there is no need to second it again. If you don't agree with the > > changes need to say so, and which point and become the proposer of > > a new option and need to look for seconds again. > > > > Please let me know if there is something that's currently on the > > website that you don't agree with. > > The content is fine, maybe the headings could be improved to look like (as a > recent example) in the systemd GR. I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm not really happy with the current wording of the option names. It's up to the one calling for vote to suggest the names. But I'm sure that any suggestions are welcome. Kurt
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Hallo Kurt Roeckx, 27.03.21 13:03 Kurt Roeckx: > I've added this option on the website. I'm still processing emails. > > Note that it's my interpretation that if changes are accepts that > there is no need to second it again. If you don't agree with the > changes need to say so, and which point and become the proposer of > a new option and need to look for seconds again. > > Please let me know if there is something that's currently on the > website that you don't agree with. The content is fine, maybe the headings could be improved to look like (as a recent example) in the systemd GR. Thanks Timo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 3/27/21 6:51 AM, Timo Weingärtner wrote: > > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the > open > letters on this subject is invited to do this in a personal capacity. > ---8<---8<---8<--- > Seconded. Milan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEVkf/m69krCYf+z+G6e1ngbRVCQ4FAmBfIhoACgkQ6e1ngbRV CQ6TQwv/dOfXm5yFcVmPfXXytmW6d2lfuqaYVVsmRRrBpgk2s/KTCSFZBkaaMOnP LJmHBsj8c8yoyEKNIvBfAMEomqp0Vq4wA9Uxw55LsJ6XKkAiPikFmmFfmmUWHDCD SMoeeDB6lk9BAQimw6NAvghobku0gec2FpmLYjmtACfFLQgm5nr0bdV9CwQvgxwG f4UTAkIQr8je0H7ZbFhD8Ys5o9ZdErqUVo6s7s1TVn6nW8O6ANJSvfxrF8BqAA16 EBfxcDv3TgGnoK8iuArnFepy82VLoqIHoLABZc840IzC5+eHnYCP7PwCrFui8NNR 6v1e4r9pwy/KXWdy8xi8a0e2pI0cGAPjL44YL5O+A+O8/xI0dwpH1tXRd+nrPchi 1QI0sqRuzhNVOJIANdyz+LDKn51uYVLfPAiBwUuyDrhXpE9rUxjkJjOJWbd3szpJ bjm7j9JwJPB854n0mSKrMG+c0xDQE09UFVTt/hnr6faCCThn9SNQXoD2jGE6/pFL TElpJW9C =LWVq -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
I've added this option on the website. I'm still processing emails. Note that it's my interpretation that if changes are accepts that there is no need to second it again. If you don't agree with the changes need to say so, and which point and become the proposer of a new option and need to look for seconds again. Please let me know if there is something that's currently on the website that you don't agree with. Kurt
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Timo Weingärtner: Updated text: ---8<---8<---8<--- The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the open letters on this subject is invited to do this in a personal capacity. ---8<---8<---8<--- Seconded An alternative would be removing the last sentence all together, how do you think about that? Fwiw, I'd keep that sentence. Regards, Michael OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Quoting Timo Weingärtner (2021-03-27 11:51:40) > 26.03.21 20:42 Jonas Smedegaard: > > Quoting Calum McConnell (2021-03-26 20:14:50) > > > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign > > > > any of the open letters in question is invited to do this in > > > > person. > > > > > > "In person" is a bit unclear, given our times: can I sign it > > > online? How about just adding my name? [...] > > Replacing "invited to do this in person" with "strongly encouraged > > to do so" would in my opinion radically change the message from an > > unbiased "Debian does not recommend if you should personally support > > a petition or not" to a biased "Debian recommends that you > > personally support a petition". I would *not* second such changed > > proposal. > > I took "in a personal capacity" from Gunnar. Rule #9: Given a choice between Jonas and Gunnar, pick Gunnar :-) > > Replacing "in question" with "on this subject" seems to me to not > > change to meaning of the message. I would second a proposed text > > with that change. > > That's better actually, because it is not restricted to statements > mentioned in the vote. > > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the > open > letters on this subject is invited to do this in a personal capacity. > ---8<---8<---8<--- Seconded! > An alternative would be removing the last sentence all together, how > do you think about that? Such change might be (mis)read as bias against (not only organisational, but also) personal engagement in petitions. I find it a feature of this text that it explicitly clarifies that Debian has no opinion on personal engagement in petitions. I.e. praphrased: "Debian says no to partitions, but (just in case of doubt) has no say on what members of Debian do individually". If instead you consider it that a flaw, and instead intended the message to be that Debian is more generally against those petitions, then I think it would be better to express that explicitly, e.g. by explicitly discouraging Debian members to sign those petitions even in a personal capacity. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
* Timo Weingärtner: " Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms" (Sat, 27 Mar 2021 11:51:40 +0100): > Hallo Jonas, > > 26.03.21 20:42 Jonas Smedegaard: > > Quoting Calum McConnell (2021-03-26 20:14:50) > > > > > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any > > > > of the open letters in question is invited to do this in person. > > > > > > "In person" is a bit unclear, given our times: can I sign it online? > > > How about just adding my name? > > > > > > I propose switching it to: > > > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any > > > > of the open letters on this subject is strongly encouraged to do so. > > > > > > It also handles the fact that the open letters aren't really 'in > > > question', since there aren't any accepted amendments that mention > > > them. I also switched out "invite", because I feel that 'invite' > > > implies the ability to UN-invite (ie, block from signing), which is > > > not one that we possess. > > > > I was assuming that "in person" meant "individually", but I can see how > > it can instead mean "by showing up physically" which makes little sense > > in the context. > > > > Replacing "in person" with either "personally" or "individually" or "on > > their own" would in my opinion convey the same intended message as is my > > understanding (as a non-native english speaker) is the message now, and > > I would second proposal with such change. > > > > Removing "in person" would however loose what in my understanding is the > > central point of the message and making the central point implicit, > > causing it to risk becoming ambiguous (although I cannot think up right > > now how any examples of how other meanings could be read into it). I > > would hesitate seconding a proposal with the phrase removed. > > > > Replacing "invited to do this in person" with "strongly encouraged to do > > so" would in my opinion radically change the message from an unbiased > > "Debian does not recommend if you should personally support a petition > > or not" to a biased "Debian recommends that you personally support a > > petition". I would *not* second such changed proposal. > > I took "in a personal capacity" from Gunnar. > > > Replacing "in question" with "on this subject" seems to me to not change > > to meaning of the message. I would second a proposed text with that > > change. > > That's better actually, because it is not restricted to statements mentioned > in the vote. > > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the > open letters on this subject is invited to do this in a personal capacity. > ---8<---8<---8<--- Seconded. -- Mathias Behrle PGP/GnuPG key availabable from any keyserver, ID: 0xD6D09BE48405BBF6 AC29 7E5C 46B9 D0B6 1C71 7681 D6D0 9BE4 8405 BBF6 -- Mathias Behrle PGP/GnuPG key availabable from any keyserver, ID: 0xD6D09BE48405BBF6 AC29 7E5C 46B9 D0B6 1C71 7681 D6D0 9BE4 8405 BBF6 pgpvsb0oN24MB.pgp Description: Digitale Signatur von OpenPGP
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
* Michael Biebl: " Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms" (Sat, 27 Mar 2021 10:39:53 +0100): > Am 27.03.2021 um 01:48 schrieb Gunnar Wolf: > > Michael Biebl dijo [Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 06:08:36PM +0100]: > >> ---8<---8<---8<--- > >> The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > >> Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > >> > >> Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the > >> open letters in question is invited to do this in person. > >> ---8<---8<---8<--- > > > > Language quip: Not "invited to do this in person" (personally flying > > to wherever signatures are being gathered), but "in a personal > > capacity" or "as an individual action"... ? > > I think the intention was clear, but I'm fine with a version which > changes that part as suggested above and my seconds extends to such a > version. Exactly my thoughts. I would be glad to hear from a native speaker if the wording is really capable of being misunderstood. Otherwise I just would let go. But I second also the proposed version, preferable using then "as an individual action". Cheers Mathias -- Mathias Behrle PGP/GnuPG key availabable from any keyserver, ID: 0xD6D09BE48405BBF6 AC29 7E5C 46B9 D0B6 1C71 7681 D6D0 9BE4 8405 BBF6 pgpBYwniN9yM3.pgp Description: Digitale Signatur von OpenPGP
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Hallo Jonas, 26.03.21 20:42 Jonas Smedegaard: > Quoting Calum McConnell (2021-03-26 20:14:50) > > > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any > > > of the open letters in question is invited to do this in person. > > > > "In person" is a bit unclear, given our times: can I sign it online? > > How about just adding my name? > > > > I propose switching it to: > > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any > > > of the open letters on this subject is strongly encouraged to do so. > > > > It also handles the fact that the open letters aren't really 'in > > question', since there aren't any accepted amendments that mention > > them. I also switched out "invite", because I feel that 'invite' > > implies the ability to UN-invite (ie, block from signing), which is > > not one that we possess. > > I was assuming that "in person" meant "individually", but I can see how > it can instead mean "by showing up physically" which makes little sense > in the context. > > Replacing "in person" with either "personally" or "individually" or "on > their own" would in my opinion convey the same intended message as is my > understanding (as a non-native english speaker) is the message now, and > I would second proposal with such change. > > Removing "in person" would however loose what in my understanding is the > central point of the message and making the central point implicit, > causing it to risk becoming ambiguous (although I cannot think up right > now how any examples of how other meanings could be read into it). I > would hesitate seconding a proposal with the phrase removed. > > Replacing "invited to do this in person" with "strongly encouraged to do > so" would in my opinion radically change the message from an unbiased > "Debian does not recommend if you should personally support a petition > or not" to a biased "Debian recommends that you personally support a > petition". I would *not* second such changed proposal. I took "in a personal capacity" from Gunnar. > Replacing "in question" with "on this subject" seems to me to not change > to meaning of the message. I would second a proposed text with that > change. That's better actually, because it is not restricted to statements mentioned in the vote. Updated text: ---8<---8<---8<--- The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the open letters on this subject is invited to do this in a personal capacity. ---8<---8<---8<--- An alternative would be removing the last sentence all together, how do you think about that? Grüße Timo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Hi Gunnar Am 27.03.2021 um 01:48 schrieb Gunnar Wolf: Michael Biebl dijo [Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 06:08:36PM +0100]: ---8<---8<---8<--- The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the open letters in question is invited to do this in person. ---8<---8<---8<--- Language quip: Not "invited to do this in person" (personally flying to wherever signatures are being gathered), but "in a personal capacity" or "as an individual action"... ? I think the intention was clear, but I'm fine with a version which changes that part as suggested above and my seconds extends to such a version. Regards, Michael OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Hi Gunnar! On 2021-03-26 at 18:48 (-06), Gunnar Wolf wrote: > Michael Biebl dijo [Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 06:08:36PM +0100]: >> ---8<---8<---8<--- >> The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard >> Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. >> >> Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the >> open letters in question is invited to do this in person. >> ---8<---8<---8<--- > > Language quip: Not "invited to do this in person" (personally flying > to wherever signatures are being gathered), but "in a personal > capacity" or "as an individual action"... ? Yes, that's a probably better wording than the original. Timo, could you please update your proposal with this version? I'll second the final update soon after. Thanks. -- Matteo F. Vescovi || Debian Developer GnuPG KeyID: 4096R/0x8062398983B2CF7A signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Michael Biebl dijo [Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 06:08:36PM +0100]: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the > open letters in question is invited to do this in person. > ---8<---8<---8<--- Language quip: Not "invited to do this in person" (personally flying to wherever signatures are being gathered), but "in a personal capacity" or "as an individual action"... ? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Hi! On 2021-03-26 at 14:36 (+01), Timo Weingärtner wrote: > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the > open > letters in question is invited to do this in person. > ---8<---8<---8<--- > > This includes the change by Mathias Behrle but changes "the letter" to "any > of > the letters". Seconded. -- Matteo F. Vescovi || Debian Developer GnuPG KeyID: 4096R/0x8062398983B2CF7A signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 02:36:40PM +0100, Timo Weingärtner wrote: > Hi, > > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the > open > letters in question is invited to do this in person. > ---8<---8<---8<--- > > This includes the change by Mathias Behrle but changes "the letter" to "any > of > the letters". > > > Grüße > Timo Seconded -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHUEARYIAB0WIQTiXc95jUQrjt9HgU3EhUo4GOCwFgUCYF43awAKCRDEhUo4GOCw FpuXAP9ucJ2IWo67t3ks3dvNCBL1UoZN387oAm6xhZDPqDeorQD/VayZ3JvDQLqe POFsC+BKfH8VvV330cYmXX/WuAGysAE= =YUrm -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Quoting Calum McConnell (2021-03-26 20:14:50) > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any > > of the open letters in question is invited to do this in person. > > "In person" is a bit unclear, given our times: can I sign it online? > How about just adding my name? > > I propose switching it to: > > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any > > of the open letters on this subject is strongly encouraged to do so. > > It also handles the fact that the open letters aren't really 'in > question', since there aren't any accepted amendments that mention > them. I also switched out "invite", because I feel that 'invite' > implies the ability to UN-invite (ie, block from signing), which is > not one that we possess. I was assuming that "in person" meant "individually", but I can see how it can instead mean "by showing up physically" which makes little sense in the context. Replacing "in person" with either "personally" or "individually" or "on their own" would in my opinion convey the same intended message as is my understanding (as a non-native english speaker) is the message now, and I would second proposal with such change. Removing "in person" would however loose what in my understanding is the central point of the message and making the central point implicit, causing it to risk becoming ambiguous (although I cannot think up right now how any examples of how other meanings could be read into it). I would hesitate seconding a proposal with the phrase removed. Replacing "invited to do this in person" with "strongly encouraged to do so" would in my opinion radically change the message from an unbiased "Debian does not recommend if you should personally support a petition or not" to a biased "Debian recommends that you personally support a petition". I would *not* second such changed proposal. Replacing "in question" with "on this subject" seems to me to not change to meaning of the message. I would second a proposed text with that change. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHUEARYIAB0WIQTiXc95jUQrjt9HgU3EhUo4GOCwFgUCYF41TwAKCRDEhUo4GOCw Fv6XAQCvPI/18AtNrtVuZDqwmjXa5WerDiNb+vJYKLomka/08gEArPCBnilXiqT3 SvfVHwvNBb44unghXKjY9ODYpAUJxwc= =9ZQo -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
> Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of > the open > letters in question is invited to do this in person. "In person" is a bit unclear, given our times: can I sign it online? How about just adding my name? I propose switching it to: > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of > the open letters on this subject is strongly encouraged to do so. It also handles the fact that the open letters aren't really 'in question', since there aren't any accepted amendments that mention them. I also switched out "invite", because I feel that 'invite' implies the ability to UN-invite (ie, block from signing), which is not one that we possess. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
---8<---8<---8<--- The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the open letters in question is invited to do this in person. ---8<---8<---8<--- seconded -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Filippo Rusconi, PhD ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Research scientist at CNRS ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Debian Developer ⠈⠳⣄ http://msxpertsuite.org http://www.debian.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Michael Biebl a écrit le 26/03/2021 à 18:08 : ---8<---8<---8<--- The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the open letters in question is invited to do this in person. ---8<---8<---8<--- seconded Seconded. _g. OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Hi, Timo Weingärtner wrote: > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) is free to issue such statements or > (co-)sign any open letter. > ---8<---8<---8<--- Seconded. Regards, Axel -- ,''`. | Axel Beckert , https://people.debian.org/~abe/ : :' : | Debian Developer, ftp.ch.debian.org Admin `. `' | 4096R: 2517 B724 C5F6 CA99 5329 6E61 2FF9 CD59 6126 16B5 `-| 1024D: F067 EA27 26B9 C3FC 1486 202E C09E 1D89 9593 0EDE signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
---8<---8<---8<--- The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the open letters in question is invited to do this in person. ---8<---8<---8<--- seconded OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Quoting Timo Weingärtner (2021-03-26 14:36:40) > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the > open > letters in question is invited to do this in person. > ---8<---8<---8<--- Seconded. People - offended or not by RMS ans FSF - who find it wrong of Debian as an organisation to make a public statement about the affairs of FSF, and also do not want any "further discussion", may find this agreeable to vote for. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 3/26/21 9:36 AM, Timo Weingärtner wrote: > Hi, > > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the > open > letters in question is invited to do this in person. > ---8<---8<---8<--- > > This includes the change by Mathias Behrle but changes "the letter" to "any > of > the letters". > > > GrüÃe > Timo > Seconded. Milan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEVkf/m69krCYf+z+G6e1ngbRVCQ4FAmBd6bAACgkQ6e1ngbRV CQ72MgwA2dvaeGGYGVH/bUQhoxWXvfed8sFZoQ/wESo8UXPqOAEr/tCoqhb4nfnE ejoB+lzKZdVKOjJHMNORNPCh1FdRAQRzZu959cKeaXlridm+aRBmDuM1+Jm7epNv rpftsl6RgIg3xsCI/8ru/o59C5P8EehEFgNf+j8fIH6Il+9KCMu/70PdCG+Gpw+7 uo0yg18IHdC5jMrzD8F9RlKqG8Q9byMsHbRB5xuOyeGUycBFb5chOxKsebKP+cAv yAAgWZeQo3dMtlGGPE/2uZJqnGV4MFQysKksJ2XcE39QIc10hzk/I2rxDolrlntb 6DaTd8GrRhCLr+OpdU8q9eqIt9FCZDrA3lZ93xVMFHnGhuJNMeDng/kryZtua+F4 OygWwqS9npi2vqVPjSpbgGnqEvDzrjr9NkPOMgOvQVpKMsF9oKOWJ+ll4xxvUvpM hUjZ42aRETmGC1s4qcAX654ZzUNrDjxuWlyqagQh5+0KxYtHMtE0if/NMMI0VUia U/7+5K5/ =lauj -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Hi, Updated text: ---8<---8<---8<--- The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign any of the open letters in question is invited to do this in person. ---8<---8<---8<--- This includes the change by Mathias Behrle but changes "the letter" to "any of the letters". Grüße Timo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Em 26/03/2021 07:24, Jonas Smedegaard escreveu: Seconded - on the condition that Timo Weingärtner replaces his previous proposal with one one including above edit. - Jonas Same here! -- Daniel Lenharo Curitiba - BR OpenPGP_0xFB0E132DDB0AA5B1.asc Description: application/pgp-keys OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Le vendredi 26 mars 2021 à 11:24:10+0100, Jonas Smedegaard a écrit : > Quoting Mathias Behrle (2021-03-26 10:40:55) > > * Timo Weingärtner: " Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project > > itself, sign any letter regarding rms" (Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:19:44 +0100): > > > > > Hallo Martin Michlmayr, > > > > > > 26.03.21 09:15 Martin Michlmayr: > > > > * Timo Weingärtner [2021-03-26 09:12]: > > > > > The Debian Project will issue a public statement on whether Richard > > > > > Stallman > > > > ^^ > > > > I think you forgot the word "not" here. > > > > > > Of course, thanks. > > > > > > Updated text: > > > ---8<---8<---8<--- > > > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > > > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > > > > > Any individual (including Debian members) is free to issue such > > > statements or > > > (co-)sign any open letter. > > > > As a matter of course each individual is/shall be free to do so, we don't > > have > > to debate this right at all or in a GR. Furthermore I would like to have the > > wording restricted to the current document in question. > > > > Could this be changed to something along the lines: > > > > """ > > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign the open > > letter > > in question is invited to do this in person. > > """ > > Seconded - on the condition that Timo Weingärtner replaces his previous > proposal with one one including above edit. Same here. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Quoting Mathias Behrle (2021-03-26 10:40:55) > * Timo Weingärtner: " Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project > itself, sign any letter regarding rms" (Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:19:44 +0100): > > > Hallo Martin Michlmayr, > > > > 26.03.21 09:15 Martin Michlmayr: > > > * Timo Weingärtner [2021-03-26 09:12]: > > > > The Debian Project will issue a public statement on whether Richard > > > > Stallman > > > ^^ > > > I think you forgot the word "not" here. > > > > Of course, thanks. > > > > Updated text: > > ---8<---8<---8<--- > > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > > > Any individual (including Debian members) is free to issue such statements > > or > > (co-)sign any open letter. > > As a matter of course each individual is/shall be free to do so, we don't have > to debate this right at all or in a GR. Furthermore I would like to have the > wording restricted to the current document in question. > > Could this be changed to something along the lines: > > """ > Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign the open letter > in question is invited to do this in person. > """ Seconded - on the condition that Timo Weingärtner replaces his previous proposal with one one including above edit. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
* Timo Weingärtner: " Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms" (Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:19:44 +0100): > Hallo Martin Michlmayr, > > 26.03.21 09:15 Martin Michlmayr: > > * Timo Weingärtner [2021-03-26 09:12]: > > > The Debian Project will issue a public statement on whether Richard > > > Stallman > > ^^ > > I think you forgot the word "not" here. > > Of course, thanks. > > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) is free to issue such statements or > (co-)sign any open letter. As a matter of course each individual is/shall be free to do so, we don't have to debate this right at all or in a GR. Furthermore I would like to have the wording restricted to the current document in question. Could this be changed to something along the lines: """ Any individual (including Debian members) wishing to (co-)sign the open letter in question is invited to do this in person. """ ? -- Mathias Behrle PGP/GnuPG key availabable from any keyserver, ID: 0xD6D09BE48405BBF6 AC29 7E5C 46B9 D0B6 1C71 7681 D6D0 9BE4 8405 BBF6 pgpOgTnLIYygw.pgp Description: Digitale Signatur von OpenPGP
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Quoting Timo Weingärtner (2021-03-26 09:19:44) > Hallo Martin Michlmayr, > > 26.03.21 09:15 Martin Michlmayr: > > * Timo Weingärtner [2021-03-26 09:12]: > > > The Debian Project will issue a public statement on whether Richard > > > Stallman > > ^^ > > I think you forgot the word "not" here. > > Of course, thanks. > > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) is free to issue such statements or > (co-)sign any open letter. > ---8<---8<---8<--- Seconded (for the record, I would also second a proposed text in the style of FSF Europe, so please don't take this as discouragement for draftiing such other text) - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 03:34:22AM -0500, Richard Laager wrote: > > ---8<---8<---8<--- > > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard > > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > > > Any individual (including Debian members) is free to issue such statements > > or > > (co-)sign any open letter. > > ---8<---8<---8<--- > > At the moment, there is only one option with enough seconds. How is voting > FOR your proposal different from voting AGAINST the current proposal? Or, if > more proposals gain enough seconds, how is voting FOR this option different > from voting AGAINST all options that issue a statement one way or the other? FD vs no FD. -- WBR, wRAR signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
On 3/26/21 3:19 AM, Timo Weingärtner wrote: ---8<---8<---8<--- The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. Any individual (including Debian members) is free to issue such statements or (co-)sign any open letter. ---8<---8<---8<--- At the moment, there is only one option with enough seconds. How is voting FOR your proposal different from voting AGAINST the current proposal? Or, if more proposals gain enough seconds, how is voting FOR this option different from voting AGAINST all options that issue a statement one way or the other? I understand that mechanically they are different: this one issues a statement that we won't issue a statement either way. But, in your view, why is that desirable? Why should I vote FOR your proposal (or why should I second it)? -- Richard
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Fri, 2021-03-26 at 09:19 +0100, Timo Weingärtner wrote: > Updated text: > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether > Richard > Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. > > Any individual (including Debian members) is free to issue such > statements or > (co-)sign any open letter. > ---8<---8<---8<--- Seconded. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEZaEt9P4xrWusTXauM1X01jtYIcwFAmBdmgAACgkQM1X01jtY IcyVSg/+P8sWEm0y9NzFP6BMRLafIKLuyqBAGLym5mRXdTwFPKoleAL/Sy78fTPA fG2OHDmliD0729DJZbwHaJ8FT6dQvmIMy1x1ZqRRGKg7LuCPhwP1hHsgVbqaUPq1 q4FKnbGZPYG5T0xtY3lacaySKJ+25hvLh675vd3/IqQl+KiQXdycTW8ntPWItKTr dW1OBt01A9ELJmC9PhC5vXc6ef18agZOD8J3zc5qIZ96P+60HTpSqIwYRjPC02+p KoXVAErDxHm4XW295eye7mpBAGxdiIr0uIehD/7C/7hiX7frW59RgPaizU/I5V+n P+29W9VAJ26+BEEz7QaPkt2VhcBdrm7XMFyD0aav0uYBgaEUMWvpb+xZVKVPI2Fz ojLOcRf5yMOvWCm+65tIHkmFe/zjpcYomZ+Rw3xhOGXAVe/x8TIvH6HyxplKCkd2 34VmwAcLxFbLhZbz8e+slo+HOd+qDPeoSYjadDYke9oktpD72k7drM4WzDSiZkfa xQAXNHEsgGqcW+9V8fm6RWMHyl4V7T77c0xdIFGi3mAmdYZRPVkHlgpUU8iwr5ln I/4K0G9NQrt/TYK8HacD3hj8TrHRUdsqj59jmtyGoFjloPr2hA/EyNNCwiW+bA/j gFd9YVnw9nyB67/yZsJgUJS5reomrotdzc6fe2fpa46/Ue0/ONw= =sQ5Y -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
Hallo Martin Michlmayr, 26.03.21 09:15 Martin Michlmayr: > * Timo Weingärtner [2021-03-26 09:12]: > > The Debian Project will issue a public statement on whether Richard > > Stallman > ^^ > I think you forgot the word "not" here. Of course, thanks. Updated text: ---8<---8<---8<--- The Debian Project will not issue a public statement on whether Richard Stallman should be removed from leadership positions or not. Any individual (including Debian members) is free to issue such statements or (co-)sign any open letter. ---8<---8<---8<--- Grüße Timo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:12:17AM +0100, Timo Weingärtner wrote: > Hi, > > I hereby propose to have another option on the ballot: > > ---8<---8<---8<--- > The Debian Project will issue a public statement on whether Richard Stallman "will not"? -- WBR, wRAR signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: "rms-open-letter" choice 3: do not, as the project itself, sign any letter regarding rms
* Timo Weingärtner [2021-03-26 09:12]: > The Debian Project will issue a public statement on whether Richard Stallman ^^ I think you forgot the word "not" here. -- Martin Michlmayr https://www.cyrius.com/
