Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 05:50:06AM +, Anthony Towns wrote: On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 08:13:22PM +, Neil McGovern wrote: On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 08:58:35PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: Why? What target level are you aiming for and what's the rationale? Hopefully https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/03/msg00308.html helps explain :) This says: ] I would be much more comfortable with about 40k in reserves to ] start with, rather than the 100k we have now, But that figure's awfully close to the $36k seed value from the DebConf 14 budget -- http://media.debconf.org/dc14/report/DebConf14_final_report.en.pdf How do these fit together? Does this imply that Debian should provide a much smaller seeed to debconfs (which might be okay if debconf sponsorships can be collected earlier, maybe), or something else? The 40k of reserves is basically for unidentified future spending needs, I've already assumed that DebConf seed funding can exist in 20150320183901.ga6...@halon.org.uk. If there's known funds we're committing to, then that's not a general reserve. I'd rather not spend the time to put together a full budget during the campaign period, especially as DDs don't have access to the full picture as far as I can tell, but I can do so if you think it would be valuable? Neil -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 09:13:10AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: On 20/03/15 at 20:02 +, Neil McGovern wrote: On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 08:56:23PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Neil McGovern ne...@debian.org [2015-03-20 19:27 +0100]: I'd be more sympathetic to funding someone (perhaps via an internship, or gap year student who's going on to accountancy) to help set up a system so we can track it easier, but only if we woudn't be wasting their time with them simply pinging TOs for data, and not getting replies. Let's assume they'd be wasting time pinging TOs for data and not getting replies. What would you do in that case? If a TO can't give us useful data about income and expenditure in a timely manner, that's not acceptible. We should drop the TO unless improvements happen. As it has been mentioned before, SPI has been struggling with that for a long time now (since before my terms). They seem to be mostly caught up at the moment, or perhaps there's some other information you're seeking that has not been forthcoming? Does the above mean that, if elected, you will drop SPI from our TO? Which other TO would you then use to keep our funds in dollars? What about non-monetary assets? I think you've unintentionally set up a straw man here. However, answering in general, there's a number of organisations around the US who are able to offer similar services should an evaluation be required[0]. Neil [0] http://flossfoundations.org/foundation-directory -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
On 20/03/15 at 20:02 +, Neil McGovern wrote: On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 08:56:23PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Neil McGovern ne...@debian.org [2015-03-20 19:27 +0100]: I'd be more sympathetic to funding someone (perhaps via an internship, or gap year student who's going on to accountancy) to help set up a system so we can track it easier, but only if we woudn't be wasting their time with them simply pinging TOs for data, and not getting replies. Let's assume they'd be wasting time pinging TOs for data and not getting replies. What would you do in that case? If a TO can't give us useful data about income and expenditure in a timely manner, that's not acceptible. We should drop the TO unless improvements happen. As it has been mentioned before, SPI has been struggling with that for a long time now (since before my terms). Does the above mean that, if elected, you will drop SPI from our TO? Which other TO would you then use to keep our funds in dollars? What about non-monetary assets? Lucas signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 08:58:35PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Neil McGovern ne...@debian.org [2015-03-20 19:39 +0100]: However, let me be clear: I intend on spending /more/ than that surplus. I would like our reserves to be at a lower level than they are now. Why? What target level are you aiming for and what's the rationale? A reasonable approach might be to set a budget for expenses as a percentage of the previous reserves (plus any explicit fundraising, eg sponsorship of debconf). SPI numbers for 2014 look something like: - earmark at 2014/01/31: ~$195k (dc14: $12k) - earmark at 2015/01/31: ~$188k (dc14/15: $32k) - non-dc14 expenses feb 2014-jan 2015: ~$40k 40k is about 21% of $190k, so just saying we'll spend about 21% of our reserves could be plausible. If we had a stable income, then adopting that process would lead to a steady state where reserves are about 4.8 times whatever Debian's annual income is. It looks to me like Debian's ex-debconf SPI income is somewhere in the range of $40k to $60k per annum? So if you wanted to have a reserve of $100k (ie 2x income), that would involve spending 50% of the reserve each year -- so $94k from $188k this year, $72k from $144k next year, $61k from $122k the year after etc, trending to $50k from $100k. (Note that this breaks down if you want a reserve = annual income: it'd imply spending 100% or more of reserves. You could address that by budgetting in quarterly or monthly cycles instead of annual though. So maintaining a 40k reserve on a 40k annual income might mean maintaining a 4x reserve on a 10k quarterly budget, so each quarter you can spend 25% of the reserve, rather than each year spending 100% of the reserve) Also, you intend to spend more than surplus, which at the moment you could. What about next year's DPL, or the year after that? I think the above offers a reasonable approach there. Still warrants deciding what the desired ratio between income and reserves should be though. Cheers, aj -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150321054421.ga8...@master.debian.org
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 12:08:02PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Lucas Nussbaum lu...@debian.org [2015-03-12 10:16 +0100]: All candidates: how will you reconcile that with the fact that the DPL currently only has a limited vision of what funds are available, and how they evolved over time? All candidates: what do you think about outsourcing some of the gruntwork related to accounting and treasury to professional agencies? The goal here would be to free up our volunteers to develop Debian and actually force us into more discipline. My general rule on expenditure is: 1) Is it important that it happens? 2) Is the cost sensible? 3) What problems will we have if we don't spend the money? 4) If it was my /personal/ bank account, would I want to spend that money? If that all passes, then sure, let's spend it. In this particular case, my main concern is that we don't have the input data available to a bookkeeper, or accounting agency. What we're doing isn't /that/ complicated in terms of finance, we don't have multiple cost centres, or particular investment portfolios. I'd be more sympathetic to funding someone (perhaps via an internship, or gap year student who's going on to accountancy) to help set up a system so we can track it easier, but only if we woudn't be wasting their time with them simply pinging TOs for data, and not getting replies. Neil -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
also sprach Neil McGovern ne...@debian.org [2015-03-20 19:27 +0100]: I'd be more sympathetic to funding someone (perhaps via an internship, or gap year student who's going on to accountancy) to help set up a system so we can track it easier, but only if we woudn't be wasting their time with them simply pinging TOs for data, and not getting replies. Let's assume they'd be wasting time pinging TOs for data and not getting replies. What would you do in that case? -- .''`. martin f. krafft madduck@d.o @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems a cigarette is the perfect type of pleasure. it is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. -- oscar wilde digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
also sprach Neil McGovern ne...@debian.org [2015-03-20 19:39 +0100]: However, let me be clear: I intend on spending /more/ than that surplus. I would like our reserves to be at a lower level than they are now. Why? What target level are you aiming for and what's the rationale? Also, you intend to spend more than surplus, which at the moment you could. What about next year's DPL, or the year after that? -- .''`. martin f. krafft madduck@d.o @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems and if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear you shout and no one seems to hear and if the band you're in starts playing different tunes i'll see you on the dark side of the moon. -- pink floyd, 1972 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 08:56:23PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Neil McGovern ne...@debian.org [2015-03-20 19:27 +0100]: I'd be more sympathetic to funding someone (perhaps via an internship, or gap year student who's going on to accountancy) to help set up a system so we can track it easier, but only if we woudn't be wasting their time with them simply pinging TOs for data, and not getting replies. Let's assume they'd be wasting time pinging TOs for data and not getting replies. What would you do in that case? If a TO can't give us useful data about income and expenditure in a timely manner, that's not acceptible. We should drop the TO unless improvements happen. Neil -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 08:58:35PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Neil McGovern ne...@debian.org [2015-03-20 19:39 +0100]: However, let me be clear: I intend on spending /more/ than that surplus. I would like our reserves to be at a lower level than they are now. Why? What target level are you aiming for and what's the rationale? Hopefully https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/03/msg00308.html helps explain :) Also, you intend to spend more than surplus, which at the moment you could. What about next year's DPL, or the year after that? Future DPLs could chose to also fundraise, or spend in different areas. I'm not going to carry a large reserve now, because there may be future unspecified needs, especially when history has shown that we're not that these future needs don't seem to occur... Perhaps for clarity: This is /not/ a sustainable funding stream. We have reserves which I believe are too high for our income/expenditure, and I believe that should be spent to further the project. This isn't something that should be used for long term commitments with a unavoidable recurring cost. Neil -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
also sprach Mehdi Dogguy me...@dogguy.org [2015-03-17 00:46 +0100]: programs like Outreachy. I think that we can fund 2 slots per year. […] Of course, as you duly noted, this doesn't prevent us from organizing a fun raising campaign to sponsor extra slots. I think you have that the wrong way around… or how do you want to sustainably fund 2 Outreachy slots per year (beyond each DPL term)? -- .''`. martin f. krafft madduck@d.o @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems humpty was pushed. digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
also sprach Mehdi Dogguy me...@dogguy.org [2015-03-17 09:56 +0100]: For a start, Debian can fund two slots *this* year. If we want to do this sustainably, we will have to make sure we have funds dedicated for it Just funding the slots won't cut it, at least not if we want a return. Outreachy, and all other ways and aspects of recruiting need active management. At the moment, a few people are working hard to keep up, but to build a team, we'd need to give it a perspective, don't you think? -- .''`. martin f. krafft madduck@d.o @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems * Overfiend came out of the womb complaining. -- #debian-devel digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
also sprach Mehdi Dogguy me...@dogguy.org [2015-03-17 11:08 +0100]: Why not proceeding step by step instead of trying to build up big plans even before we start? We've started. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madduck@d.o @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems security here. yes, ma'am. yes. groucho glasses. yes, we're on it. c'mon, guys. somebody gave an aardvark a nose-cut: somebody who can't deal with deconstructionist humor. code blue. -- http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/armadillos.txt digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
Le 2015-03-17 10:03, martin f krafft a écrit : also sprach Mehdi Dogguy me...@dogguy.org [2015-03-17 09:56 +0100]: For a start, Debian can fund two slots *this* year. If we want to do this sustainably, we will have to make sure we have funds dedicated for it Just funding the slots won't cut it, at least not if we want a return. Outreachy, and all other ways and aspects of recruiting need active management. At the moment, a few people are working hard to keep up, but to build a team, we'd need to give it a perspective, don't you think? Why not proceeding step by step instead of trying to build up big plans even before we start? -- Mehdi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/f0730e49c213c2b4de7d909079fe3...@dogguy.org
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 08:06:26PM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 06:44:45PM +, Neil McGovern wrote: * Outreach. Every team complains (quite rightly!) about the lack of people to do the work. Yet we seem to be rather poor at actively recruiting people to come and do things for us. Outreachy is a great initiative, and I would love to see a Debian Apprentice scheme (though that's probably a bit of a stretch goal!) So, to be clear: would you authorize to use regular Debian funds to sponsor Debian participation into Outreachy (which costs ~6000 USD per intern), rather than going necessarily through dedicated fund raising campaigns at each edition? Not quite. I'd basically guarantee a minimum number of slots, but still expect the fund raising to take place. Essentially, Debian would be the backer in case there's not enough funds raised. Considering that there are 2 Outreachy sessions per years, how many slots per year do you think it would be sensible funding on general Debian funds? Speaking to Tom (who's running around and seems to be doing most of the leg work from what I can see), 2 per session, 4 total per year would be preferable. Neil -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
Hi, Le 2015-03-12 09:16, Lucas Nussbaum a écrit : Hi, In his platform, Neil wrote: I will spend some money we have horded. Debian currently holds approximately $200,000 at SPI alone. Our donators didn't give us money for it to be sat around in a bank account, we should spend it to make the project more successful. Neil: how will your approach to that be different from what was done in the past? On what additional things specifically do you plan to spend that money? Other candidates: what will be your approach to that? I list in my platform a few ideas: - Sprints - Mini-debconfs - Outreach (as replied in another mail). Besides, I'd like to encourage multi-team meetings (which are not more than simple sprints) to be able to work on a larger scopes than the one limited to a team. For example (only as ideas) a sprint with the Release Team and Security Team so that both can reach a consensus on which software to update during a freeze and following which criteria ; a sprint with FTP team and Wanna-Build team in the hope to get source-only uploads or arch:all rebuilds move forward. (and not speaking about the long awaited PPAs subject, which IIUC still needs much work on both sides) All candidates: how will you reconcile that with the fact that the DPL currently only has a limited vision of what funds are available, and how they evolved over time? The vision is not perfect, but we have a rough idea on how much donations we receive and how much we spend. Leaving aside DebConf's budget which puts efforts in a specific fund raising campaign, we are left with hardware replacement, sprints and mini conferences, etc... Up to now, I think we've been running with a budget between 20k$ and 30k$ for sprints and various conferences. Not having a perfect vision on our funds didn't stop past DPLs from putting in place ambitious plans (5 years hardware replacement and encouraging sprints). So unless one DebConf really cracks its budget or the of donators/donations drops drastically or some DPL starts spending money without looking at the total sum, I'd not worry much about our funds. Regards, -- Mehdi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/34cde67e3e4a06d1ddec7935f2f69...@dogguy.org
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
Lucas == Lucas Nussbaum lu...@debian.org writes: Lucas In his platform, Neil wrote: I will spend some money we have horded. Debian currently holds approximately $200,000 at SPI alone. Our donators didn't give us money for it to be sat around in a bank account, we should spend it to make the project more successful. Lucas Other candidates: what will be your approach to that? Already touched this elsewhere, at least in part, but a non-exhaustive list would be: * Outreach: One of the problematic thing about Debian is the lackluster recruitment. We hardly do any active recruiting. This is an area where supporting the outreach could yield great results. I'm not only thinking about Outreachy (but that's a wonderful programme too, about which I talked about briefly in an earlier mail), but about reaching people in other ways too. Sprints and meetings, while useful on their own too, may also be used for outreach. That would obviously runs the risk of making the sprint and the meeting less effective, and places more burden on the people involved. But perhaps if we've done them more frequently, with more people involved (just not at the same time), we could balance that out. Just to give an example: an ftp-* sprint that goes through NEW, and at the same time teaches the intricate details of licensing to participants would be educational. It may not attract many people, but who knows? I'm sure we can come up with Debian-funded events that benefit both Debian, and the wider community we want to recruit from. * Meetings, sprints: Great stuff. I'm a big fan of in-person collaboration, and would like to encourage more of it. Possibly with travel or accomodation sponsorship. * Conferences, events and the like: Similar to what Neil wrote: banners, leaflets, whatsoever. I'd even go as far as suggest that we could use Debian funds to cover the expense of people participating in paid-for events in some cases. Of course, one has to be *very* careful and strict about this one... I'm not entirely convinced it would be a good idea, but I'll just throw it in. * Accounting Treasury: See my reply to Martin. In short: outsourcing accounting treasury to a professional agency is something I'd seriously consider. Lucas All candidates: how will you reconcile that with the fact that the DPL Lucas currently only has a limited vision of what funds are available, and how Lucas they evolved over time? See my reply to Martin's suggestion of outsourcing accounting treasury. Having a limited vision of what funds are available is something we should fix, one way or the other. But until such time that we have a clear view, seeing the larger picture, a rough estimate of how much we get in, and how much we spend, is enough to base reasonable decisions upon, without the risk of running out of money. (Better err on the side of safety, and so on.) -- |8] signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
Stefano == Stefano Zacchiroli z...@debian.org writes: Since Stefano asked the other candidates to answer too, my answers are below: Stefano On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 06:44:45PM +, Neil McGovern wrote: * Outreach. Every team complains (quite rightly!) about the lack of people to do the work. Yet we seem to be rather poor at actively recruiting people to come and do things for us. Outreachy is a great initiative, and I would love to see a Debian Apprentice scheme (though that's probably a bit of a stretch goal!) Stefano So, to be clear: would you authorize to use regular Debian funds to Stefano sponsor Debian participation into Outreachy (which costs ~6000 USD per Stefano intern), rather than going necessarily through dedicated fund raising Stefano campaigns at each edition? I'd authorize the use of regular Debian funds to sponsor our participation into Outreachy. Stefano Considering that there are 2 Outreachy sessions per years, how many Stefano slots per year do you think it would be sensible funding on general Stefano Debian funds? From the top of my head, I'd think at most two interns could be sponsored (per year) from Debian funds. But I'm not opposed to others more involved in GSoC and/or Outreachy suggesting more. It would take quite a bit of convincing to make me accept that sponsoring less than two interns per year would be more beneficial than supporting more than two. Stefano (And of course doing the above wouldn't rule out running dedicated fund Stefano raising campaigns to sponsor *extra* slots.) While there is also a fundraising question on -vote@, I'd like to share my general feeling of fundraisers here, too: fundraisers can be great, but when a project is done year after year, and the results of it are so valuable that we keep doing it, then perhaps it is time to figure out a better way to fund it, than having to run fundraisers. Fundraising can still be an additional source of funds, may even be a required part of funding, but in these cases, it should not be the only source. Preferably, the more times a recurring thing occurs, the less it should rely on fundraising. I'll try to share a few more thoughts in the 'spending money' and 'fundraiser' threads later. -- |8] signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
martin == martin f krafft madd...@debian.org writes: martin also sprach Lucas Nussbaum lu...@debian.org [2015-03-12 10:16 +0100]: All candidates: how will you reconcile that with the fact that the DPL currently only has a limited vision of what funds are available, and how they evolved over time? martin All candidates: what do you think about outsourcing some of the martin gruntwork related to accounting and treasury to professional martin agencies? The goal here would be to free up our volunteers to martin develop Debian and actually force us into more discipline. While I understand the concerns of doing so, but I would support outsourcing accounting treasury to a professional agency. Even if it wouldn't help us having a better overview of our current and past financial status, we'd have a much better idea of it in the future. I wouldn't worry about locking ourselves into one such agency. Switching agencies isn't that terrible: we have all the data and papers, which we can transfer to the new agency, if so need be. On an arguably much smaller case, I switched accountants a number of times, with no issues at all. I had insights into businesses that did the same, without a hiccup. I do not think we need to find an agency that uses free software only. We do not apply that principle to other companies we work with, either. We buy hardware designed with non-free tools. We take part in programs run by companies that use and write a lot of non-free software. And I could continue the list. What counts, is that we get the job done, and we can work together in such a way that *we* only rely on free software. I do not think we'd be any less Free, would we pay a professional agency to handle our accounting and treasury. It would cost us money, though. But seeing as our funds are growing, and we're talking about how to spend that money, this would be a good option. It would help us see clearer, and would take the burden off of volunteers, who would rather do something more enjoyable instead. Of course, if there are enough people within the Debian project, who want to handle these issues, all the better. Yet, if over the years, they didn't make themselves known, I don't think we should expect them to magically appear. -- |8] signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
Hi, Le 2015-03-13 19:06, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit : On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 06:44:45PM +, Neil McGovern wrote: * Outreach. Every team complains (quite rightly!) about the lack of people to do the work. Yet we seem to be rather poor at actively recruiting people to come and do things for us. Outreachy is a great initiative, and I would love to see a Debian Apprentice scheme (though that's probably a bit of a stretch goal!) So, to be clear: would you authorize to use regular Debian funds to sponsor Debian participation into Outreachy (which costs ~6000 USD per intern), rather than going necessarily through dedicated fund raising campaigns at each edition? I explicitly mention in my platform that we should sponsor internship programs like Outreachy. I think that we can fund 2 slots per year. But this is also a subject that I wanted to discuss more in details with the Outreach team to which I would like to formally delegate the representation and organization of our participation in such programs. This team should have a word on this subject too. Of course, as you duly noted, this doesn't prevent us from organizing a fun raising campaign to sponsor extra slots. Regards, -- Mehdi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/c7aacb110d880170b10f6992b3a7c...@dogguy.org
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 11:07:21PM +0100, Martin Zobel-Helas wrote: Will you revoke 20131008134615.ga19...@xanadu.blop.info or do you think this authorization is useful? From what I can see, it seems sensible to have this in place. If DSA doesn't like it, or would like it changed of course, then we can do that too. Neil -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
Martin == Martin Zobel-Helas zo...@debian.org writes: Martin Will you revoke 20131008134615.ga19...@xanadu.blop.info or do you Martin think this authorization is useful? I have no plans of revoking that authorization. -- |8] signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
also sprach Mehdi Dogguy me...@dogguy.org [2015-03-15 00:02 +0100]: Can you please explain why you think that kind of work cannot ever be achieved with volunteers? Or, maybe I missed your point? I assume that everyone volunteering for Debian is primarily doing so out of interest in the project, community, technology, and philosophy. I don't know of any volunteer who's primary attraction to Debian is the ability to work on financials and paperwork. Over the years, we've come by, but I think we're missing opportunities. We have a few people graciously donating their time to do they best they can, but in all these years, we have not managed to ever produce an annual report, and Lucas as current DPL had to admit that noone has a firm grasp of the big picture. If you were to lead a company like that, you'd be in trouble. The kind of work I am talking about is repetitive, dull, error-prone, and deadline-based. It does not slot in with when it's ready and it's not the kind of work a hobbyist just does on the side with a spreadsheet or org-mode. We could free our volunteers from having to use their time to do this work just to get by and instead let those with an interest in money flows and finances work on growing a cash flow. Let the books and treasury be done in the backoffice, not by people who'd use their time for the project differently, but by those who do this all the time, for their jobs. These are standard tasks with standard interfaces and neither would we grow dependent on any service provider (they can be swapped with ease), nor do we actually need to care about how they do it. Or maybe a better idea would be to create an external project that would offer this kind of services to free and open source projects? Admittedly, SPI matches this description. Can you explain what you do not like with their approach? I have no problems with their approach, but they are a fundraising partner and a bank. They do not offer controlling and treasury services to Debian. If you wanted to create an external project, you'd create a whole lot of additional administrative work. How would you fund that? How would you staff it? Besides, Why do you think it will more effective than the current status when uncertainty about finances also comes from TOs statuses? Fully agreed, and I'd hope that we would put clear guidelines in place and not be afraid to remove TO status and demand our assets back. We trust the people involved not to do misappropriate our assets (though we might well not know if they did, even erroneously so), but the 'T' in TO does not describe this sort of trust. Instead, when it comes to a trusted organisation that manages finances, I'd argue that uncertainty should immediately trigger an audit. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madduck@d.o @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems the only thing that sustains one through life is the consciousness of the immense inferiority of everybody else, and this is a feeling that I have always cultivated. -- oscar wilde digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
Hi, Le 2015-03-12 23:07, Martin Zobel-Helas a écrit : Hi, question to all candidates: Will you revoke 20131008134615.ga19...@xanadu.blop.info or do you think this authorization is useful? Revoking this authorization looks more counter-productive than anything else. I will not revoke it. If we are expecting highly available systems, the least we can expect is DSA being able to do such expenses quickly. I expect current and/or future DPL to ask DSA if there is something to enhance there, after more than a year of publication of this process. -- Mehdi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/c59b31281b80bc193a5b267967330...@dogguy.org
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 10:16:45AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: Hi, In his platform, Neil wrote: I will spend some money we have horded. Debian currently holds approximately $200,000 at SPI alone. Our donators didn't give us money for it to be sat around in a bank account, we should spend it to make the project more successful. Neil: how will your approach to that be different from what was done in the past? On what additional things specifically do you plan to spend that money? This has been an issue for a while in Debian. See Steve's talk in 2009 in Spain: http://meetings-archive.debian.net/Public/debian-meetings/2009/debconf9/high/1058_Money.ogv (You also get to see a younger version of me running around with a microphone...) Some simple things I would be interested in: * Publicity/events. If we need a banner for a stall, lets get one. If we need some nice leaflets etc about Debian, we can get some printed. * Meetings. Sprints are great, and it's fantastic to see those being promoted for DebCamp. Our main conference each year is DebConf, and I would be happy to provide the float so that people can get travel sponsorship (for example) confirmed earlier. * Outreach. Every team complains (quite rightly!) about the lack of people to do the work. Yet we seem to be rather poor at actively recruiting people to come and do things for us. Outreachy is a great initiative, and I would love to see a Debian Apprentice scheme (though that's probably a bit of a stretch goal!) All candidates: how will you reconcile that with the fact that the DPL currently only has a limited vision of what funds are available, and how they evolved over time? Interestingly, in 2009, we had over 100k USD. We're quickly approaching double that. We have the large picture of how much we get in and spend, I don't think there's a risk of running out of money any time soon. Neil -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 06:44:45PM +, Neil McGovern wrote: * Outreach. Every team complains (quite rightly!) about the lack of people to do the work. Yet we seem to be rather poor at actively recruiting people to come and do things for us. Outreachy is a great initiative, and I would love to see a Debian Apprentice scheme (though that's probably a bit of a stretch goal!) So, to be clear: would you authorize to use regular Debian funds to sponsor Debian participation into Outreachy (which costs ~6000 USD per intern), rather than going necessarily through dedicated fund raising campaigns at each edition? Considering that there are 2 Outreachy sessions per years, how many slots per year do you think it would be sensible funding on general Debian funds? (And of course doing the above wouldn't rule out running dedicated fund raising campaigns to sponsor *extra* slots.) Cheers. -- Stefano Zacchiroli . . . . . . . z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o Former Debian Project Leader . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o . « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club » signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
Forgot to mention: I'd like to know the answers to the questions quoted below also from other candidates. TIA, Cheers. On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 08:06:26PM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: So, to be clear: would you authorize to use regular Debian funds to sponsor Debian participation into Outreachy (which costs ~6000 USD per intern), rather than going necessarily through dedicated fund raising campaigns at each edition? Considering that there are 2 Outreachy sessions per years, how many slots per year do you think it would be sensible funding on general Debian funds? -- Stefano Zacchiroli . . . . . . . z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o Former Debian Project Leader . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o . « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club » signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
also sprach Neil McGovern ne...@debian.org [2015-03-13 19:44 +0100]: * Meetings. Sprints are great, and it's fantastic to see those being promoted for DebCamp. Our main conference each year is DebConf, and I would be happy to provide the float so that people can get travel sponsorship (for example) confirmed earlier. How are you going to finance this sustainably? -- .''`. martin f. krafft madduck@d.o @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems i must get out of these wet clothes and into a dry martini. -- alexander woolcott digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
Hi, question to all candidates: Will you revoke 20131008134615.ga19...@xanadu.blop.info or do you think this authorization is useful? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Zobel-Helas zo...@debian.orgDebian System Administrator Debian GNU/Linux Developer Debian Listmaster http://about.me/zobel Debian Webmaster GPG Fingerprint: 6B18 5642 8E41 EC89 3D5D BDBB 53B1 AC6D B11B 627B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150312220721.gp26...@ftbfs.de
Re: Q to all candidates: spending money
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 11:07:21PM +0100, Martin Zobel-Helas wrote: question to all candidates: Will you revoke 20131008134615.ga19...@xanadu.blop.info or do you think this authorization is useful? Link: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2013/10/msg1.html Cheers, aj -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150313012056.gb19...@master.debian.org
