Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
I've seen this whole thread continuing on and just tried to ignore it but can't in good conscious not add my thoughts on this matter... TL;DR; This comes to a GR vote I'll oppose it... Full stop... Why you may ask? Because I think this is starting to border on ridiculous. I can not for the life of me think of even one person who would hear "postmaster", "hostmaster", "webmaster" or "FTP master" and instantly think "OH MY GOD THAT'S TALKING ABOUT SLAVERY!" Yes, I agree there are a great many systemic issues that this world needs to be addressed, but this is simply not one of them and I see it solely as an attempt to make an issue out of something that isn't. The cancel culture mentality is getting out of control. Let's not become a laughing stock like Land O Lakes butter, who because of cancel culture and native American sensitivity changed their logo and became an instant punch line by removing the Indian from the logo but keeping the land. Cause that's never happened before. This list goes on... Uncle Ben, Aunt Jemima. Unless someone can show some shred of evidence that having the word "master" in any of these well-known, widely used service names has offended someone who thinks it relates to slavery and racism or even better some technical advantaged to wasting the time debating and going through the process or erasing the word from a history of usage. There is no point to continue with this worthless debate. There are so many more items that time could be better spent working and addressing. On Sat, Nov 13, 2021 at 9:03 PM Paul Wise wrote: > On Fri, 2021-11-12 at 22:14 +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > > > There are a trillion and two external dependencies on many > > of the above that take extra work and ages on top of that. > > For example, according to codesearch there are around 210 mentions of > the domain in 61 Debian source packages. I have local checkouts of more > than 30 git repositories that mention the domain. There are more if you > search for the team name instead of the domain. Of course many of those > are in very old debian/changelog entries so might not need changing. > > -- > bye, > pabs > > https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise >
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Fri, 2021-11-12 at 22:14 +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > There are a trillion and two external dependencies on many > of the above that take extra work and ages on top of that. For example, according to codesearch there are around 210 mentions of the domain in 61 Debian source packages. I have local checkouts of more than 30 git repositories that mention the domain. There are more if you search for the team name instead of the domain. Of course many of those are in very old debian/changelog entries so might not need changing. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On 16314 March 1977, Thomas Goirand wrote:
Wrong wrong wrong ... we're "project members" ... don't you remember?
:)
Just like AH is now CT. (Gosh, DMT TLA...)
This shows that it will take years, if not decades, for the rename to
ever be effective (if the person(s) in charge decide(s) it...).
Well.
To rename just the team itself - minutes.
To be effective in terms of us mere humans using the new term, years to
decades.
To actually adjust all the resources around it ("sub"team names, unix
roles, host (aliases), mail, directory structures, database roles, BTS
pseudopackage, dput targets, all the code) may be faster, but a huge
work with lots of breakage possibilities, not all of which solveable as
simple as "then have the old name stay for a while as cname".
And that is just from our view of things and we aren't yet sure we are
complete on that. There are a trillion and two external dependencies on
many of the above that take extra work and ages on top of that.
--
bye, Joerg
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On 11/11/21 8:48 PM, Bastian Blank wrote: > On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 02:23:58PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: >> I'm legitimately surprised to hear that anyone in the Debian project >> believes that the term "FTP master" is *not* confused and outdated. > > I'm really surprised that ftp master is more important than the weird > definition of DD and DM. > > Bastian > Wrong wrong wrong ... we're "project members" ... don't you remember? :) Just like AH is now CT. (Gosh, DMT TLA...) This shows that it will take years, if not decades, for the rename to ever be effective (if the person(s) in charge decide(s) it...). Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo)
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On 2021/11/11 21:48, Bastian Blank wrote: I'm really surprised that ftp master is more important than the weird definition of DD and DM. You left out "non-uploading DD" :) -Jonathan
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
I feel that the benefits and costs estimate are just made up numbers. I'd like to know if there exists a person in the whole world that would refuse to cooperate with Debian because of the FTP master name. My totally made up answer is no. But I could of course be totally wrong. Best Il gio 11 nov 2021, 20:48 Felix Lechner ha scritto: > Hi, > > On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:28 AM Bdale Garbee wrote: > > > > being a good > > citizen of a community like Debian means *not* side-stepping such > > responsibilities. > > No sweat. How about the following? > > $500,000 Value of friendly and up-to-date team names [1] > $200,000 Cost of implementation [2] > > $300,000 Net benefit to Debian > > Please consider, however, that no individual opinion—and especially > not mine—can stand for the group's preferences. As the proposer, I am > biased. Why argue? > > > the workload you > > may be imposing on others by taking something to a project-level vote > > Voting is a right. [3] Advocates help with the process. The project > imposes decisions by approving or rejecting resolutions. [4] > > Kind regards > Felix Lechner > > [1] Recruiting 50 excess contributors over ten years, at a lifetime > contribution of $10,000 each. > [2] 2,000 hours of work at $100, a rate roughly in line with > https://www.debian.org/consultants/ > [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage > [4] Section 2.1, https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution > >
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi Marc On 2021/11/11 17:29, Marc Haber wrote: On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 05:37:55PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight to keep the project we all work on using terminology > there might be people who would oppose the change not because they're comitted to the term "master" but they feel that we have darn more important things to do - for example re-gaining technical excellence and leadership. We haven't been concentrating on technology enough in the last years. Well, I would tell these hypothetical persons that you're concerned about that technical excellence and project maintenance go hand in hand, and that you can't have one without the other. On the scale of how large a project change is in terms of changes that we need to make in Debian, this one is really on the smaller end of the scale. There's a lot of work that I've been wanting to push, but I've been patient because we had the release this year, then DebConf, now we have a GR about GRs, and it is probably starting to sound that I'm complaining about these, but I'm not, it's just that making changes- especially changed in Debian, takes time and patience, but they are necessary, and they do not need to block technical work. We do have some serious project-level maintenance backlog, part of my DPL campaign for this year was to help address that. We didn't explore that in too much detail during the voting period, but I do expect that we'll have quite a few decisions coming up that will be significantly more complicated than a team name change, and I hope that we can figure out ways to make sure that everyone is heard and that we don't impede on anyone's work while figuring it all out. But we have to try, we cannot allow project rot to just continue and risk it spreading into other areas. -Jonathan
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:28 AM Bdale Garbee wrote: > > being a good > citizen of a community like Debian means *not* side-stepping such > responsibilities. No sweat. How about the following? $500,000 Value of friendly and up-to-date team names [1] $200,000 Cost of implementation [2] $300,000 Net benefit to Debian Please consider, however, that no individual opinion—and especially not mine—can stand for the group's preferences. As the proposer, I am biased. Why argue? > the workload you > may be imposing on others by taking something to a project-level vote Voting is a right. [3] Advocates help with the process. The project imposes decisions by approving or rejecting resolutions. [4] Kind regards Felix Lechner [1] Recruiting 50 excess contributors over ten years, at a lifetime contribution of $10,000 each. [2] 2,000 hours of work at $100, a rate roughly in line with https://www.debian.org/consultants/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage [4] Section 2.1, https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 02:23:58PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > I'm legitimately surprised to hear that anyone in the Debian project > believes that the term "FTP master" is *not* confused and outdated. I'm really surprised that ftp master is more important than the weird definition of DD and DM. Bastian -- There's another way to survive. Mutual trust -- and help. -- Kirk, "Day of the Dove", stardate unknown
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Thu 2021-11-11 07:56:24 -0500, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > 1/ The assertion "we all can acknowledge is confused and outdated" is >far fom the case. This and other discussions on the matter are >strong evidence that "we can all acknowledge" is a >mischaracterization. I'm legitimately surprised to hear that anyone in the Debian project believes that the term "FTP master" is *not* confused and outdated. There is some subset of people who think that "master" is confused and outdated. There is another subset of people who think that "FTP" is confused and outdated. Some of us are in the intersection of those subsets. I had expected the union of those sets to be congruent with the entire project membership, thus i would have thought everyone would be able to get behind a rename of the team in accordance with the wishes of the team members themselves. Live and learn, I guess. You've made it pretty clear that you're not in the "master" subset. But I'm surprised to hear that you also are not in the "FTP" subset. On the off chance that you *are* in the "FTP" subset, i encourage you re-read my earlier postscript in that light. This is my last message on this thread. --dkg signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Felix Lechner writes: > Hi, > > On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 5:12 AM Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: >> >> Those proposing >> improvements must also demonstrate how the claimed improvements >> provide greater benefit than the cost incurred in implementing the >> improvements. > > I had hoped to sidestep that responsibility by putting the matter to a > vote. Reading this really bothers me. The problem I see is that being a good citizen of a community like Debian means *not* side-stepping such responsibilities. Because everyone here is a volunteer, it's important to not make being part of Debian less rewarding in unnecessary ways. When you have a good idea that needs effort by others to implement, how you choose to go about proposing they make that effort matters. If you can successfully convince that individual or group that your idea is a good one and they come to *want* to do the work, we all win and our community becomes stronger. When you side-step the responsibility of considering the workload you may be imposing on others by taking something to a project-level vote as the first step, those people are likely to feel "forced" to do the work. In my experience, that makes it *less* likely the work will actually get done, or be done in a timely manner. Bdale signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 05:37:55PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is >somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking >why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight >to keep the project we all work on using terminology there might be people who would oppose the change not because they're comitted to the term "master" but they feel that we have darn more important things to do - for example re-gaining technical excellence and leadership. We haven't been concentrating on technology enough in the last years. Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany| lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 02:22:48PM +0100, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > Roberto C. Sánchez wrote on 11/11/2021 at 13:56:24+0100: > > If we as a project allow some to make changes without considering the > > concerns of those affected by the changes, we are not being faithful > > to our own principles. > > That's true, but it doesn't look like it's what's being done here. > > Felix proposed something, and it's being debated. In particular it seems > most agree that a GR is not an appropriate idea, but rather let > FTPMaster Team and the DPL convey and find a path if it's relevant. > > Apart from that, we were many to raise the opinion that removing the > "master" term out of "it reminds slavery" motive was not something we > thought sane. > > IOW, it seems, to me, that the project does quite efficiently what is > expected on these grounds. Opinions are expressed and the discussion > goes on. > > Mind, it's not even close to a flame, so it's actually quite nice! > I agree with you completely. My words that you quoted were specifically responding to DKG's words: > > > If someone is excited to improve the project, even if you don't > > > have the capacity to help them do it, at least *let* them do it! This seems to imply that objecting to a proposed change is inherently an obstructionist act. I haven't expressed an opinion on Felix's initial GR suggestion, but the discussion that has arisen from it so far seems to have allowed those on various sides of the matter express their ideas and concerns. That seems to be what we as a project value. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Roberto C. Sánchez wrote on 11/11/2021 at 13:56:24+0100: > If we as a project allow some to make changes without considering the > concerns of those affected by the changes, we are not being faithful > to our own principles. That's true, but it doesn't look like it's what's being done here. Felix proposed something, and it's being debated. In particular it seems most agree that a GR is not an appropriate idea, but rather let FTPMaster Team and the DPL convey and find a path if it's relevant. Apart from that, we were many to raise the opinion that removing the "master" term out of "it reminds slavery" motive was not something we thought sane. IOW, it seems, to me, that the project does quite efficiently what is expected on these grounds. Opinions are expressed and the discussion goes on. Mind, it's not even close to a flame, so it's actually quite nice! With best regards, -- PEB signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 5:12 AM Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > > Those proposing > improvements must also demonstrate how the claimed improvements > provide greater benefit than the cost incurred in implementing the > improvements. I had hoped to sidestep that responsibility by putting the matter to a vote. Long live democracy—freedom and liberty for all! Kind regards Felix Lechner
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 05:37:55PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > > PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is >somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking >why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight >to keep the project we all work on using terminology we all can >acknowledge is confused and outdated. If someone is excited to >improve the project, even if you don't have the capacity to help them >do it, at least *let* them do it! Two things: 1/ The assertion "we all can acknowledge is confused and outdated" is far fom the case. This and other discussions on the matter are strong evidence that "we can all acknowledge" is a mischaracterization. 2/ Claimed improvements must in fact improve things. Those proposing improvements must also demonstrate how the claimed improvements provide greater benefit than the cost incurred in implementing the improvements. Your statement seems to imply that those who dissent should just be quiet and allow those who want to implement change to implement change without any resistance. I've never ever seen such an arrangement actually result in a good outcome. The "FTP Masters" rename primarily concerns the team itself, but it has the potential to affect every member of the project. Personally, I rather value the opinions and ideas of those affected and think that those should be considered alongside the proposals for change. That's the way this project has determined that we should do things. If we as a project allow some to make changes without considering the concerns of those affected by the changes, we are not being faithful to our own principles. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Daniel Kahn Gillmor writes: > PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is >somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking >why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight >to keep the project we all work on using terminology we all can >acknowledge is confused and outdated. If someone is excited to >improve the project, even if you don't have the capacity to help them >do it, at least *let* them do it! As someone who did jump into the debate about the term "master", and regrets doing so (due to contributing irrelevant noise), I wanna say: Thanks for making this point, you are absolutely right! -- Gard signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: On Sat 2021-11-06 11:32:35 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: Pierre-Elliott Bécue - 06.11.21, 11:06:58 CET: That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive Team" sounds quite nice. Agreed. I like this name. Yes, please. "Debian Archive Team" is fine. This is fair amount of work, but it will help make debian not seem quite as archaic as I'm sure it seems to new prospective users or developers. Thus it is valuable work. But a GR does not seem necessary. Thank you dkg for writing this mail. Full acknowledgement. Cheers jonas The way to do this is to consult with the people already on the team and the DPL. Select a new name, figure out what work needs to be done to make the change. Make a plan, have someone to drive it, and persist. It will probably take at least a full debian release cycle. Changing names is hard, even if you don't have reactionary pushback. Many things might be touched by this: e-mail addresses; mailing lists; text in debian policy or the developer's reference; DNS labels; OpenPGP certificates; SSH host information; wiki entries; software like dupload; etc (fortunately, the archaic team name doesn't appear in the Constitution or the DFSG). Consider upgrade paths and how to deprecate the old name safely: when updating e-mail addresses, can you create an alias from the old label to the new address? How about DNS records? How should we handle mailing list archives? When/how should you send a deprecation warning when people use the old label? Have a timeline that acknowledges the work involved, and plans when to take each step. For example, changing DNS records, e-mail addresses, and cryptographic associations will probably be slower/more cumbersome than changing human-readable labels. Be prepared to revise the workplan when someone discovers some other place that the old name is embedded. You need to find someone or someone(s) who have the capacity and the skills to actually carry out the right work -- or who at least can keep track of the work and encourage/support the folks who have the permissions to do it to get it done. No one should object to this work if it's done with this kind of thoughtfulness, care, and attention to detail. Helping the project through this transition would be a great contribution to Debian, because it fixes a silly stumbling block that existing developers have already learned how to ignore, but that does actually hold the project back from welcoming new members who might have never heard of FTP (or of using the term "master" to mean administrator for a machine) before. This work is *not* the kind of contribution that maps cleanly to a facility at packaging free software for redistribution. This is a great example of why we need more than just package-maintainers as debian developers. There are probably many other parts of the project that need this kind of attention and effort, and we should absolutely *not* scare people off who want to help fix things. But let's not make it harder to fix than it already needs to be by dragging a GR into the mix as well. --dkg PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight to keep the project we all work on using terminology we all can acknowledge is confused and outdated. If someone is excited to improve the project, even if you don't have the capacity to help them do it, at least *let* them do it!
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Sat 2021-11-06 11:32:35 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Pierre-Elliott Bécue - 06.11.21, 11:06:58 CET: >> That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive >> Team" sounds quite nice. > > Agreed. I like this name. Yes, please. "Debian Archive Team" is fine. This is fair amount of work, but it will help make debian not seem quite as archaic as I'm sure it seems to new prospective users or developers. Thus it is valuable work. But a GR does not seem necessary. The way to do this is to consult with the people already on the team and the DPL. Select a new name, figure out what work needs to be done to make the change. Make a plan, have someone to drive it, and persist. It will probably take at least a full debian release cycle. Changing names is hard, even if you don't have reactionary pushback. Many things might be touched by this: e-mail addresses; mailing lists; text in debian policy or the developer's reference; DNS labels; OpenPGP certificates; SSH host information; wiki entries; software like dupload; etc (fortunately, the archaic team name doesn't appear in the Constitution or the DFSG). Consider upgrade paths and how to deprecate the old name safely: when updating e-mail addresses, can you create an alias from the old label to the new address? How about DNS records? How should we handle mailing list archives? When/how should you send a deprecation warning when people use the old label? Have a timeline that acknowledges the work involved, and plans when to take each step. For example, changing DNS records, e-mail addresses, and cryptographic associations will probably be slower/more cumbersome than changing human-readable labels. Be prepared to revise the workplan when someone discovers some other place that the old name is embedded. You need to find someone or someone(s) who have the capacity and the skills to actually carry out the right work -- or who at least can keep track of the work and encourage/support the folks who have the permissions to do it to get it done. No one should object to this work if it's done with this kind of thoughtfulness, care, and attention to detail. Helping the project through this transition would be a great contribution to Debian, because it fixes a silly stumbling block that existing developers have already learned how to ignore, but that does actually hold the project back from welcoming new members who might have never heard of FTP (or of using the term "master" to mean administrator for a machine) before. This work is *not* the kind of contribution that maps cleanly to a facility at packaging free software for redistribution. This is a great example of why we need more than just package-maintainers as debian developers. There are probably many other parts of the project that need this kind of attention and effort, and we should absolutely *not* scare people off who want to help fix things. But let's not make it harder to fix than it already needs to be by dragging a GR into the mix as well. --dkg PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight to keep the project we all work on using terminology we all can acknowledge is confused and outdated. If someone is excited to improve the project, even if you don't have the capacity to help them do it, at least *let* them do it! signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On 11/4/21 8:14 PM, Paul R. Tagliamonte wrote: > The hardest part may very well be changing all the CNAME/A > records[1][2] Thanks for volunteering! :) Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo)
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Sat, Nov 06, 2021 at 11:32:35AM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Pierre-Elliott Bécue - 06.11.21, 11:06:58 CET: > > That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive > > Team" sounds quite nice. > > Agreed. I like this name. +1, and +1 about ***not*** trying to do this via a GR. I can't think of a more divisive way to cause dissention, waste a lot of time, and further demoralize many DD's. It's also like using a sledgehammer to try to kill a fly. - Ted
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Pierre-Elliott Bécue - 06.11.21, 11:06:58 CET: > That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive > Team" sounds quite nice. Agreed. I like this name. Best, -- Martin
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Holger Levsen - 06.11.21, 10:44:24 CET: > On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 03:52:01PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote: > > It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I > > hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?) > > obviously everybody who's not instantly supporting renaming ftpmaster > :) Just that a word like "master" can have one meaning, does not mean it cannot have another. Like for example for someone who has mastered a certain skill. If we exclude every word from being spoken that could be understood in a way that supports slavery or racism or you name it… or even just questions any main stream narrative… I wonder how many words in our languages would still be left. I am just a contributor, not a Debian Developer. So I would have no vote anyway… however… while I do agree that it is important to think about language and how we shape our world by using certain language patterns I also think one can overdo this. I regularly thought that when git reminded me about master git branch name on a new installation. I use "main" as branch name in new repositories cause I do not really care about the name, however… I thought again and again… whether it really has been necessary to annoy every git user like this on every new git installation. That written there can be other good reasons to rename FTP Masters – whether the new name still contains "Masters" in it or not. I wonder: Were there even any suggestions brought up in this thread for a new name? That would be a good approach, I think. If you like to change something, provide an alternative to what is. I thought about "Package Sorcerers" however… I would not be surprised if someone brings up that equally to wizards sorcerers can have a bad connotation. And I do not really quite like the name either. Like "Package Magicians" it does not pronounce all that well. And in the end it would be difficult why FTP Masters would be Package Magicians while the people who develop the packages would not be. Yet "Magicians of the Package Queue"… really… not. A short name… that indeed fits well… I see that as a bit of a challenge and I did not see anyone providing a suggestion to that in this thread at least so far. -- Martin
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, Mattia Rizzolo wrote on 06/11/2021 at 00:31:04+0100: > If I was given the question: would you like to get rid of the word > "master" because it reminds somebody of slavery, my answer would be > NO. (Incidentally, I have similar thoughts about blacklist/whitelist > and similar SJW crap) In fact, depending how the ballots are worded, I > might just even vote against this specific proposal. I feel about the same. That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive Team" sounds quite nice. > But I do support this stance. > I'd love to see something like GRs used way way more often, if only > the process was much lighter in bureaucracy I agree, more GR is not necessarily bad. It would be in the current situation because it's a lot of work for the process to happen, but in general collecting a project-members-wide opinion if and when possible sounds quite nice. Cheers, -- PEB signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 03:52:01PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote: > It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I > hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?) obviously everybody who's not instantly supporting renaming ftpmaster :) I think you got a *lot* to learn about how to unite people, this thread is a pretty "good" example how not to do this and rather alienate them. -- cheers, Holger ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C ⠈⠳⣄ The upcoming clima apocalypse is the big elephant in every room now. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
off-topic Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, On 05.11.21 16:11, Ulrike Uhlig wrote: On 05.11.21 15:23, Gard Spreemann wrote:> Felix Lechner writes: Please note that in the former GDR, which seems to be a part of the rest of Germany nowadays, even though income maps seem to indicate otherwise [1], the word "Führerschein" (literally: guide certificate - where guide is a vehicle guide) was replaced by "Fahrerlaubnis" (driving permission) [2] and is still widely used with this connotation in this part of the country. (In reunified Germany, the term is also used, but means something slightly different.) I need to correct what I said, because it's probably factually wrong. Likely, the term was not "replaced" as I said above but instead "tried to be avoided" - and it still is by some. The point I was trying to make was that the German usage of "Führerschein" was and is definitely not as uncontroversial as it has been presented in this thread. Sorry for adding another off-topic message to an already off-topic thread! ulrike
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Just dropping my 2cents: On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, 12:09 am Felix Lechner, wrote: > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 2:45 PM Joerg Jaspert wrote: > > > > I am pretty sure that was a 100% calculated move > > to go directly to this. > > It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I > hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?) > If I was given the question: would you like to get rid of the word "master" because it reminds somebody of slavery, my answer would be NO. (Incidentally, I have similar thoughts about blacklist/whitelist and similar SJW crap) In fact, depending how the ballots are worded, I might just even vote against this specific proposal. Let's lose the fear of referendums. Our fellow contributors are our > trusted partners in this noble endeavor! > But I do support this stance. I'd love to see something like GRs used way way more often, if only the process was much lighter in bureaucracy 🤐
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 2:45 PM Joerg Jaspert wrote: > > I am pretty sure that was a 100% calculated move > to go directly to this. It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?) Let's lose the fear of referendums. Our fellow contributors are our trusted partners in this noble endeavor! Debian is good. The group is good. Please have a good weekend, everyone! Felix
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On 16308 March 1977, Jonathan Carter wrote: I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution. Ideally? Its the worst possible way to go about. I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is, That might be slightly harsh, Felix only became a DD last year, it takes some time to learn not to go for the biggest and bluntest hammer first. Only slightly, and nah, I am pretty sure that was a 100% calculated move to go directly to this. Also, changing the name is Step 1 only and if we leave it at that, quite pointless. Getting it all changed will take quite a while longer (start with hostnames for example). *nod*, although I don't see harm in starting with just a team name change. It doesn't have to mandate immediate changes everywhere else. The next step would probably be to file bugs for everywhere the name occurs with some tag and then track that, but I wouldn't want to force a surge of work because of this change. Starting with the delegation and then taking it one step at a time from there seems ok. Yeah. The current name is wrong for ages already, ftp is hardly in use for a long time, so thats a good reason to adjust it. If it happens to lose the "master" part in that, oh fine. And yeah, it will take *ages* and lots of small steps before it will be all through. -- bye, Joerg
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 03:28:07PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote: >On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 2:14 PM Joerg Jaspert wrote: > >> Debian is a very risk averse and slow to change project. > >We need more trust. The group has to rise—as a moral force, but >gently—over the arbitrary and capricious nature that makes us who we >are. In short, we need more compassion for each other and more >inspiration to do good. Some call it culture. > >The strong maintainer model is one big reason. DAM is desperately >trying to rule. The code of conduct isn't working. We effectively live >under martial law, a very low and unjust way to organize our group's >affairs. What does it mean to be sophisticated? Debian can do better. "Martial law"? Are you *really* trying to claim we're in a setup with "direct military control of normal civil functions" [1]. Stop trying to push buttons, and go and do something useful instead. [1] To quote the same wikipedia article you linked yourself. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "I can't ever sleep on planes ... call it irrational if you like, but I'm afraid I'll miss my stop" -- Vivek Das Mohapatra
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, > This is turning, yet again, into a "Germans debate German language > issues" thread. Please don't worry. Having started it, I will lead us out again. > it's reasonable for Debian to judge "master of a slave" and > "master of the package archive" completely differently. Yes, it's reasonable, but it's not nice. This isn't even about changing the colloquial use. I am asking for your vote to change an official term. It is already outdated. The hope is to make Debian a more welcoming place. It would be a gradual process, because change is hard. How much of a concession could it be? Does it feel like social engineering, or like the drumbeat of the political left? It is neither, although it would help if you felt that way. No one likes to be commanded around—you don't, and neither did the slaves. See, you have so much in common! Either way, I am just asking for your vote. You can say no, and I won't judge you for it. But I will say, please. Kind regards Felix Lechner
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi! On 05.11.21 15:23, Gard Spreemann wrote:> Felix Lechner writes: I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well, but your portrayal of a wide and unequivocal acceptance of the word "Führer" in German society is fictional. […] So while German speakers, as you point out, may want to avoid speaking of a political leader as a "Führer", they don't seem to want to avoid referring to their driver's license as a "Führerschein". By the same token, it's reasonable for Debian to judge "master of a slave" and "master of the package archive" completely differently. This is turning, yet again, into a "Germans debate German language issues" thread. I think this is not helping. The issue raised by Felix Lechner seems to be worthwhile debating, the proposed strategy (doing it via a GR) is certainly questionable. Also, @Gard: Please note that in the former GDR, which seems to be a part of the rest of Germany nowadays, even though income maps seem to indicate otherwise [1], the word "Führerschein" (literally: guide certificate - where guide is a vehicle guide) was replaced by "Fahrerlaubnis" (driving permission) [2] and is still widely used with this connotation in this part of the country. (In reunified Germany, the term is also used, but means something slightly different.) Have a great weekend Ulrike [1] https://www.wsi.de/data/wsi_vm_verfuegbare_einkommen_kreise_print-01.png [2] https://www.ddr-museum.de/de/objects/1020956
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 06:35:43AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote: > > I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and > > completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts > > That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well, > but your portrayal of a wide and unequivocal acceptance of the word > "Führer" in German society is fictional. [3] I am from Berlin, and > people hesitate to use the word anywhere near its historical > meaning—except in fringe groups. [4] Finding synonyms is a common web > search. There are 683 of them. [5] I am also a native speaker of German. All examples that Karsten gave (you didn't quote them) are correct and current German and uncontroversially accepted in Germany. Grüße Marc -- - Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany| lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Felix Lechner writes: >> I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and >> completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts > > That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well, > but your portrayal of a wide and unequivocal acceptance of the word > "Führer" in German society is fictional. [3] I am from Berlin, and > people hesitate to use the word anywhere near its historical > meaning—except in fringe groups. [4] Yes, but no one is advocating that we use the word "master" in its historical meaning relating to slavery, so that's hardly relevant. As has been repeated many times, there are non-problematic meanings of "master". So while German speakers, as you point out, may want to avoid speaking of a political leader as a "Führer", they don't seem to want to avoid referring to their driver's license as a "Führerschein". By the same token, it's reasonable for Debian to judge "master of a slave" and "master of the package archive" completely differently. -- Gard signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, > you mean, people in Debian die? I'm speechless and pretty unimpressed. Martial law is the ad-hoc implementation of simple laws to control a population. [1] In modern democracies, it only happens to stop widespread unlawful behavior during public unrest. While effective, it is not healthy for a society because all decisions are made on the spot and without due process. [2] It is an emergency measure and has nothing to do with people dying. Most often it's a nightly curfew or the taking of private property. > I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and > completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well, but your portrayal of a wide and unequivocal acceptance of the word "Führer" in German society is fictional. [3] I am from Berlin, and people hesitate to use the word anywhere near its historical meaning—except in fringe groups. [4] Finding synonyms is a common web search. There are 683 of them. [5] > the biggest and bluntest hammer Naming a post office is not a hammer. It may be perceived that way because the threat of a GR has so often been used as a last resort when fighting, but peace is possible. We just need inclusive behavior, a tolerance for difference, and the seeking of common ground. [6] It could be the birth of a virtual republic. Have hope! Kind regards Felix Lechner [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law [2] https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt5_4_1/ [3] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BChrer#Sprachgebrauch [4] https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/die-enthemmte-mitte-schockierende-studie-ueber-rechtes-denken-jeder-zehnte-deutsche-wuenscht-sich-einen-fuehrer-wie-hitler_id_5638932.html [5] https://www.buchstaben.com/synonym/f%C3%BChrer [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 03:28:07PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote: > [...] We effectively live > under martial law you mean, people in Debian die? I'm speechless and pretty unimpressed. -- cheers, Holger ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C ⠈⠳⣄ We live in a world where teenagers get more and more desperate trying to convince adults to behave like grown ups. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi Joerg On 2021/11/04 23:14, Joerg Jaspert wrote: I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution. Ideally? Its the worst possible way to go about. I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is, That might be slightly harsh, Felix only became a DD last year, it takes some time to learn not to go for the biggest and bluntest hammer first. Also, changing the name is Step 1 only and if we leave it at that, quite pointless. Getting it all changed will take quite a while longer (start with hostnames for example). *nod*, although I don't see harm in starting with just a team name change. It doesn't have to mandate immediate changes everywhere else. The next step would probably be to file bugs for everywhere the name occurs with some tag and then track that, but I wouldn't want to force a surge of work because of this change. Starting with the delegation and then taking it one step at a time from there seems ok. -Jonathan
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 2:14 PM Joerg Jaspert wrote: > > I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is, > to do this via a GR. The mildest vote in the U.S. House of Representatives is the naming of a U.S. Post Office. I think it would be such a vote. How can someone not be for it? By the way, we are behind the times. Many universities have avoided the term since 2016. [2] It was also in the newspapers a year ago. > the GR should give the new name I did not wish to bind future generations. > just because some group of racists happens to use the same word For better or for worse, we are part of a larger world. For the German speakers among us, it may make sense that "Führer" isn't a great word, either. [1] We live with history. > did you engage with the FTP master team That would not achieve the intended purpose. Voting in unison can be therapeutic for a group. Our discussions are too aggressive or accusatory, and too long. For once, there would be peace. We can use a little more consensus. Isn't this conversation milder and shorter than most? > Debian is a very risk averse and slow to change project. We need more trust. The group has to rise—as a moral force, but gently—over the arbitrary and capricious nature that makes us who we are. In short, we need more compassion for each other and more inspiration to do good. Some call it culture. The strong maintainer model is one big reason. DAM is desperately trying to rule. The code of conduct isn't working. We effectively live under martial law, a very low and unjust way to organize our group's affairs. What does it mean to be sophisticated? Debian can do better. > I'd suggest the debian archive team Personally, I like Archive Operations. I also had the FTP vs HTTP thingy on my mind, but all the technical questions miss the human point: It was to seek common ground among people. > It is *very* silly I was not offended. Please call me anything—just do not lie. (You didn't.) Kind regards Felix Lechner [1] Given the extraordinary atrocities, that comparison is only illustrative. It was also not my idea, but I can't find the reference. [2] https://www.thecollegefix.com/rice-u-away-master-term-cites-negative-historical-connotation/
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On 16306 March 1977, Felix Lechner wrote: I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution. Ideally? Its the worst possible way to go about. I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is, to do this via a GR. Without even ever asking the team what they think about a change. Not that I am against a change, and I can even see some of the reasoning behind it. I'm sure the team can find something entirely without an entirely needless GR. Also, changing the name is Step 1 only and if we leave it at that, quite pointless. Getting it all changed will take quite a while longer (start with hostnames for example). -- bye, Joerg
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
> While I also agree with Paul that the current name is somewhat dated > technologically, it is not fatally flawed. Therefore, I think we > should leave the naming decision to the FTP masters themselves. This doesn't change anything about this thread or this email, but in the spirit of trying to be really clear, I believe master is a harmful word as well, even if it's used in a sense where the implication is not slavery -- since it still causes harm to our friends working alongside us to create an operating system. I've done the best I can to fix it where I see it but still live with legacy usage. My position is that there is no part of the name "ftp master" that I find particularly relevant anymore. Part two of my position is that Debian is a very risk averse and slow to change project. It takes us eons to do anything major, and if that decision is perceived as controversial in any way, it takes an order of magnitude longer. With a lot of hostility and the same conversations but with a different flavor of the year. At this point I could script half the traffic on -vote and -project. A GR will serve to turn something that can be done by under 10 people into a series of tragic and passive aggressive blog posts around the etymology of words. To be honest, I have better ways to spend my time. It strikes me as possible and likely the ftpteam agrees that the name is outmoded (both for "ftp" and "master") and can make the change internally (if I had my way, "debian archive team"), or internally with the DPL if that's something that needs to be done. Doing a GR is a signal of failure to let those doing the work make their own decision on their responsibilities, in my mind. The hardest part may very well be changing all the CNAME/A records[1][2] Fondly, paultag [1]: this is actually going to be hard :) [2]: I may live to regret these words
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
> "Timo" == Timo Röhling writes: Timo> I am fine with any name on which the FTP masters and the DPL Timo> can agree, including the current one. I would also happily Timo> ratify their choice via GR if they felt that the whole project Timo> should have a say. What I do not want is force a GR decision Timo> upon them. +1 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi Felix, * Felix Lechner [2021-11-03 14:27]: I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution. [...] PROPOSED TEXT In recognizance of the awful history of slavery, the Debian project will rename the "FTP Masters" team. For a long time, the word "master" has been associated with the grave injustices of slavery. [1] While there is a tradition in computing to label primary equipment as a "master" and replicated equipment as "slaves" [2] the use of the word "masters" for a group of people with special privileges [3] shocks the conscience. Within that context, the team's use of the title "wizard" [4] was also problematic. The Ku Klux Klan and its spinoffs used the title "wizard" to style high officials. [5] The team will likewise discontinue the use of the term "wizard" to designate any current or former members. Nothing in this resolution shall impair the continued use of the "master/slave" analogy for technical equipment. "Without a struggle, there can be no progress." (Frederick Douglass) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology) [3] "The FTP masters can do everything in the archive.", https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/FTPMaster [4] "The FTP Wizard role consists of former team members", https://ftp-master.debian.org/ [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Wizard I'm not going to repeat Karsten's arguments; I agree with him that our usage of master is not associated with slavery in such a way that we absolutely need to abandon the word. Neither is wizard (unless anyone insists on "Grand Wizard" as title). While I also agree with Paul that the current name is somewhat dated technologically, it is not fatally flawed. Therefore, I think we should leave the naming decision to the FTP masters themselves. I am fine with any name on which the FTP masters and the DPL can agree, including the current one. I would also happily ratify their choice via GR if they felt that the whole project should have a say. What I do not want is force a GR decision upon them. Cheers Timo -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ╭╮ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ │ Timo Röhling │ ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ │ 9B03 EBB9 8300 DF97 C2B1 23BF CC8C 6BDD 1403 F4CA │ ⠈⠳⣄ ╰╯ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On 11/3/21 10:27 PM, Felix Lechner wrote: > Hi, > > I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution. > > Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has > received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the > "master/slave" topic over a year ago. [2][3][4] Gosh... it's becoming crazy... Let's rename the FTP master team because FTP is obsolete, not because of "master" which is there in the sense "professor", or the one who knows (like Chinese "xifu"). If we're about to engage once more in such a SJW thing for the wrong reasons, misunderstanding the word "master" in this case. I'll vote no! > There should be little controversy. There is: you are mistaking with the meaning of "master" in this case. We aren't the slaves of the FTP master team!!! > What do you think about the text below, please? Thanks for reading! It is *very* silly to do a GR for such a (wrong) thing. Please don't waste the time of everyone. We have other procedures in Debian, like asking the DPL to do it, if the FTP master team agrees. Also, did you engage with the FTP master team at least, before writing this message? That would be appropriate, IMO. Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo) P.S: Please do not take it the wrong way: saying something is silly is not the same as calling someone silly... I do respect Felix (and everyone else), and in this instance as well.
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
I agree. I also don't know if this is something we can just do with the DPL or not. The name master isn't great, as is ftp. No one has suggested a name yet. If this was my proposal, I'd suggest the debian archive team. Why can't we just change the name without a GR between the ftpteam and DPL? Paul On Wed, Nov 3, 2021, 6:45 PM Scott Kitterman wrote: > > > On November 3, 2021 9:27:08 PM UTC, Felix Lechner < > felix.lech...@lease-up.com> wrote: > >Hi, > > > >I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General > Resolution. > > > >Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has > >received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the > >"master/slave" topic over a year ago. [2][3][4] > > > >There should be little controversy. With a high pass rate, we could > >all come together as a group—for our shared love of Debian and free > >software! > > > >What do you think about the text below, please? Thanks for reading! > > > >Kind regards > >Felix Lechner > > > >[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd > >[2] https://www.wired.com/story/tech-confronts-use-labels-master-slave/ > >[3] > https://www.cnet.com/news/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/ > >[4] > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/technology/racist-computer-engineering-terms-ietf.html > > > >* * * > > > >PROPOSED TEXT > > > >In recognizance of the awful history of slavery, the Debian project > >will rename the "FTP Masters" team. For a long time, the word "master" > >has been associated with the grave injustices of slavery. [1] > > > >While there is a tradition in computing to label primary equipment as > >a "master" and replicated equipment as "slaves" [2] the use of the > >word "masters" for a group of people with special privileges [3] > >shocks the conscience. > > > >Within that context, the team's use of the title "wizard" [4] was also > >problematic. The Ku Klux Klan and its spinoffs used the title "wizard" > >to style high officials. [5] The team will likewise discontinue the > >use of the term "wizard" to designate any current or former members. > > > >Nothing in this resolution shall impair the continued use of the > >"master/slave" analogy for technical equipment. > > > >"Without a struggle, there can be no progress." (Frederick Douglass) > > > >[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery > >[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology) > >[3] "The FTP masters can do everything in the archive.", > >https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/FTPMaster > >[4] "The FTP Wizard role consists of former team members", > >https://ftp-master.debian.org/ > >[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Wizard > > > > I'd suggest if you want to change the name via GR, the text of the GR > should give the new name. Otherwise, it could drag on for a very long time. > > Regardless of how one might feel about changing the names, it should be > done quickly if it's to be done. > > Scott K > >
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
I feel like this is something the DPL should just decide together with the FTP dudes. No GR required, that's just bait. -- .''`. martin f. krafft @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems "let me take you down, 'cause i'm going to strawberry fields. nothing is real and nothing to get hungabout. strawberry fields forever." -- the beatles
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On November 3, 2021 9:27:08 PM UTC, Felix Lechner wrote: >Hi, > >I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution. > >Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has >received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the >"master/slave" topic over a year ago. [2][3][4] > >There should be little controversy. With a high pass rate, we could >all come together as a group—for our shared love of Debian and free >software! > >What do you think about the text below, please? Thanks for reading! > >Kind regards >Felix Lechner > >[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd >[2] https://www.wired.com/story/tech-confronts-use-labels-master-slave/ >[3] >https://www.cnet.com/news/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/ >[4] >https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/technology/racist-computer-engineering-terms-ietf.html > >* * * > >PROPOSED TEXT > >In recognizance of the awful history of slavery, the Debian project >will rename the "FTP Masters" team. For a long time, the word "master" >has been associated with the grave injustices of slavery. [1] > >While there is a tradition in computing to label primary equipment as >a "master" and replicated equipment as "slaves" [2] the use of the >word "masters" for a group of people with special privileges [3] >shocks the conscience. > >Within that context, the team's use of the title "wizard" [4] was also >problematic. The Ku Klux Klan and its spinoffs used the title "wizard" >to style high officials. [5] The team will likewise discontinue the >use of the term "wizard" to designate any current or former members. > >Nothing in this resolution shall impair the continued use of the >"master/slave" analogy for technical equipment. > >"Without a struggle, there can be no progress." (Frederick Douglass) > >[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery >[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology) >[3] "The FTP masters can do everything in the archive.", >https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/FTPMaster >[4] "The FTP Wizard role consists of former team members", >https://ftp-master.debian.org/ >[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Wizard > I'd suggest if you want to change the name via GR, the text of the GR should give the new name. Otherwise, it could drag on for a very long time. Regardless of how one might feel about changing the names, it should be done quickly if it's to be done. Scott K
Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution. Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the "master/slave" topic over a year ago. [2][3][4] There should be little controversy. With a high pass rate, we could all come together as a group—for our shared love of Debian and free software! What do you think about the text below, please? Thanks for reading! Kind regards Felix Lechner [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd [2] https://www.wired.com/story/tech-confronts-use-labels-master-slave/ [3] https://www.cnet.com/news/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/ [4] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/technology/racist-computer-engineering-terms-ietf.html * * * PROPOSED TEXT In recognizance of the awful history of slavery, the Debian project will rename the "FTP Masters" team. For a long time, the word "master" has been associated with the grave injustices of slavery. [1] While there is a tradition in computing to label primary equipment as a "master" and replicated equipment as "slaves" [2] the use of the word "masters" for a group of people with special privileges [3] shocks the conscience. Within that context, the team's use of the title "wizard" [4] was also problematic. The Ku Klux Klan and its spinoffs used the title "wizard" to style high officials. [5] The team will likewise discontinue the use of the term "wizard" to designate any current or former members. Nothing in this resolution shall impair the continued use of the "master/slave" analogy for technical equipment. "Without a struggle, there can be no progress." (Frederick Douglass) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology) [3] "The FTP masters can do everything in the archive.", https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/FTPMaster [4] "The FTP Wizard role consists of former team members", https://ftp-master.debian.org/ [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Wizard
