RE: [Declude.JunkMail] CommTouch, etc
Here are my observations/thoughts/conclusions/3 1/2 cents: (When I say Declude, I am talking about the company as a whole.) 1. David Barker is in the position of being in the middle of all of this. As such, nothing should be directed at David directly personally. He is doing the best he can with what he is given to work with. He is also human and subject to the same emotions we are. As such, he is not perfect and has made mistakes, some of which he would rather not admit to, but then again I have boxes full of those. David believes in Declude and us and wants us to succeed with Declude as well. He may not agree with decisions made by others for which he has to follow, but that is part of the job. (David, listening to the sound track from Iron Eagle on loud while taking a power nap does wonders for clearing the mind.) 2. Declude has made a number of mistakes since the change of ownership from Scott. Some of those are/were rather large. Some have been admitted to and others have been swept under the carpet. This has made many of us, including many of us power users, short fused when it comes to problems with Declude. This is to be understood and expected, but not necessarily right. There are those at Declude that are truly trying to clean that up, but for sure it is not easy. There are forces at Declude pushing for new avenues of revenue by introducing new features and products. While every business has a right to do this, how it is done and how it is perceived that it is done can mean a big difference on how the company is viewed by it customers, and prospective customers. 3. For the last couple of weeks or so, a carrot has been hung in front of us, or at least some of us that saw it. This was a new included test that was to help on identifying spam and viruses. That carrot was ZEROHOUR/CommTouch. Now, it has been introduced officially and low and behold most of us can not legally use it. Oh, but we can actually use it as part of a new product which is a Declude Gateway product. Well, talk about a bait and switch! I am very upset over this. There was mention of licensing restrictions by CommTouch and such and David was able to get them to allow us service providers to use albeit through a different means. I am sorry, but if details of how it was going to work including final negotiations were not finalized until very recently, nothing, not one word, should have been said about this until such agreements and licensing terms were finalized between Declude and CommTouch. As it is, this has left a big awful taste in my mouth, and frankly has not placed much confidence in what CommTouch has to offer us. That is not good business, nor does it foster good relationships. 4. As I had discussed with Barry, what over a year ago now, the possibility for some one such as myself to use a Declude Gateway product was time sensitive, in that the ever changing war on spam and viruses was necessitating changes in my configuration in the present time. In other words, I have already spent time and money on gateways to my Imail server as I could not wait for the anticipated time for the Declude Gateway product. So now, as a service provider the only way I could utilize ZEROHOUR if I wanted to is in a Gateway product which now I am not interested in purchasing. Others may be interested, but I would have to think most of us have already made some adjustments to our configuration in response to changes in the war on spam and viruses in the last year. In other words, the Declude Gateway product, which is not even officially out yet, is a late comer and is going to be playing catch-up in terms of install base. So, it remains to be seen as to how many service providers will consider purchasing the Declude Gateway product, irregardless of ZEROHOUR. 5. On the subject of licensing based upon revenue sharing, it will not work. Period! Some have tried to argue that if you can not make a profit on offering e-mail, then do not do it. Well, they do not understand. In this day and age, thanks to all the fly-by-night and el-cheapo-servicio-providio and the Mickey D's of hosting spam and virus filtering is not only necessitated by the onslaught of such trash but by the expectations of users and companies that it is automatically part of e-mail. Yes, there are those out there that still have morals and values and understand that quality service not only costs money but deserves to be paid, but in today's culture of me me me they are becoming fewer and further between. Sorry Declude, but you can not squeeze water out of a sponge that is just damp without putting tears or rips in it. (Go ahead, go home and try it.) Besides, if that is what CommTouch is insisting on, then CommTouch can go away, and don't let the door KEEK ya in the butt on the way out. So Declude, stop holding a carrot in front of us and concentrate on fixing bugs. Hey, we are human too. Concentrate on fixing one bug. Let us power users try it and report back. Then release
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
I believe the explanation that everyone is looking for with this revenue sharing piece is there is a difference between revenue boosting, and revenue saving. With all the competition from the major players in our market today, we constantly have to integrate new services at no additional price increase to our customers - whether it be extra Spam filtering services, larger bandwidth allocations on web sites, more email accounts in standard hosting packages, etc. This results in added expenditures with no additional revenue. Each time we have to do this, we have to weigh the factors - what is the cost per user to implement? Will it allow us to keep the customer for another year? We do not get new customers because we have a remarkable Spam filter system that no one else has - all ISP's in my market provide Spam filtering. We get new customers because we get to know them by first names and provide 24/7 customer service that is hard to find elsewhere. Sincerely, Randy Armbrecht Global Web Solutions, Inc. 804-346-5300 x112 877-800-GLOBAL (4562) x112 http://globalweb.net Richmond's Internet Source since 1996! WEB HOSTING including EMAIL beginning at $29/month! DSL Starting at $34.95/month! Non-Profits - receive a 25% discount on most services! Global Web Solutions is a registered trademark of Global Web Solutions, Inc., Glen Allen, VA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Bilbee Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 4:33 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Then I just do not get it. If revenue would not be lost without it and it costs you money to provide then what is the business case for providing the service? Last I checked business, are in business to make money on capital investments/expenditures. Not spend money for things that do not make money. An analogy: Does a restaurant make revenue from toilet paper? Kevin Bilbee -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Robertson Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:57 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 On 7/19/06, Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it revenue would be lost. Hardly. Carry that argument out to prove how wrong it is. By virtue of the fact that they allow me to be in business in the first place I can expect a knock on the door from Microsoft since they make the server o/s... and Dell since they make the servers. So just being a part of the show lets the pig belly up to the trough. Not in this universe. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Janitor, MSB Web Systems mysecretbase.com --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
Hi We're not a service provider (but I love and value the fact that all of you are!) Rob What I find particularly amusing is the line Restrictions apply to service providers. If there is anyone subscribed to this mailing list who is not a service provider, please raise your hand. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude SPF Record
No action should be taken on SoftFail, so this record is fine. Hard fail is the only result that should be taken action on currently, and the only one that really protects from abuse by spammers. However, I would advise making sure all sending IPs are listed to avoid confusion. Darin. - Original Message - From: David Barker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:31 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude SPF Record Thanks Bill I will take a look into this. I checked http://dnsreport.com/tools/dnsreport.ch?domain=declude.com and it shows PASS SPF record You have an SPF record. This is very good, as it will help prevent spammers from abusing your domain. Your SPF record is: v=spf1 a ~all [TTL=1200] David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Landry Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:25 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude SPF Record David, it looks like Declude needs to update its SPF record as posts from the list are failing both: SPF_HELO_SOFTFAIL SPF_SOFTFAIL DNSStuff is showing softfail for your mail delivery host IP address, as well: http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/spf.ch?server=declude.comip=63.246.31.248 Bill --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
Kevin, It would probably help for you to take a course or read a book on business accounting. There are cost centers, and revenue-generating centers. Sometimes it may be a judgement call as to where one item goes, as in spam filtering, but it is the business's call as to how they structure their pricing model, what is considered revenue-generating, and what is considered a cost. External parties have no business deciding what should be considered revenue-generating for any given business. Also, I think everyone is missing the point Matt has made several times of how do you decide how much revenue should be attributed to spam/virus filtering. How do you attach a value to it's contribution to keeping customers or obtaining new customers? Or a relative value of the service against other services like base email hosting, web hosting, traffic reports, control panels, database hosting, media hosting, tech support, maintenance, etc. Again, it's a judgement call. And since most businesses have different mixes of costs, pricing models, etc. it would take looking at each business individually to come up with some sort of revenue-sharing model. One size would most definitely not fit all. In short, while this idea may be creative, it's not the least bit practical. Revenue-sharing should be a misnomer, and pricing should be by server, domain, or account/alias. For a pricing model to be successful, subjectivity needs to be removed so that the factors determining it can be easily quantified. Darin. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:54 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 No they do not impose a revenue sharing model, but toilet paper is still a consumable that indirectly makes restaurants money by keeping its customers happy. When it is there no one notices, when it is not customers definitely know and are put off. My comments are not about the revenue sharing but that email is a lost leader for an ISP. Lost leaders simply make business money by keeping the customers happy purchasing other higher margin products. Otherwise there would be no reason to sell a service for less than it costs to maintain. Kevin Bilbee -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn \ WCNet Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 2:01 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 I think one thing that happened here is that the announcement regarding ComTouch didn't make it *clear* that it is an *optional* part of Declude. MY initial impression was that *any* Service Provider who uses the version of Declude that incomes ComTouch would be required to participate in the licensing of it, by whatever scheme fit the bill. Now that I understand it's optional, fine, I don't have to use that part. The toilet paper manufacturer does not impose a per-customer usage fee or take a direct percentage of the restaurant's daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly sales. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:33 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Then I just do not get it. If revenue would not be lost without it and it costs you money to provide then what is the business case for providing the service? Last I checked business, are in business to make money on capital investments/expenditures. Not spend money for things that do not make money. An analogy: Does a restaurant make revenue from toilet paper? Kevin Bilbee -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Robertson Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:57 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 On 7/19/06, Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it revenue would be lost. Hardly. Carry that argument out to prove how wrong it is. By virtue of the fact that they allow me to be in business in the first place I can expect a knock on the door from Microsoft since they make the server o/s... and Dell since they make the servers. So just being a part of the show lets the pig belly up to the trough. Not in this universe. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Janitor, MSB Web Systems mysecretbase.com --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
Title: Message While customers arereferred to us for our spam/virus filtering capabilities, we do operate it as a cost center, as the labor and other expenses involved areslightly higher than the additional revenue generated from them. Darin. - Original Message - From: Glenn \ WCNet To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 You're saying that email and spam/virus scanning is a service aspect that specifically draws customers to an ISP. I'msaying it doesn't, that's all.I've not once heard a customer state that email service was the deciding factor in choosing us, and there's no evidence it entices them to stay. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:01 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Then stop offering mail if it such a burden to the business. Explain to your customer that they can can go to Hotmail or Yahoo. When the addy gets horked by spammers, simply abandon it and create another. Let us know how many customers stay with your service. Of course you will not be able to quantify the lost new business! Kevin Bilbee From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn \ WCNetSent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:55 AMTo: declude.junkmail@declude.comSubject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Hahahahaha! E-mail hardlykeeps or draws customers. Anybody who wants e-mail can go to Hotmail or Yahoo. When the addy gets horked by spammers, simply abandon it and create another. Domain hosting, maybe a little. However, I have domain customers who havenever used their included mail service. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:12 AM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 So then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it revenue would be lost. The ISP users need to ask is what level of these services do I need to offer to keep current customers happy and what level of service do I need to land new business? Kevin Bilbee From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED])Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 4:35 AMTo: declude.junkmail@declude.comSubject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Kevin, Mainly because in order to get other types of business that may bring revenue (hosting, etc) this type of service is expected. Look at any ISP/hosting provider that is offering $5.00 a month hosting plans this is what everyone competes with. Could you imagine yourself (consumer or small business) signing up with a hosting provider and them not handling your email or even better not virus scanning it? Even with yahoo/gmail you get free spam filtering and virus scanning. Darrell Check out http://www.invariantsystems.com for utilities for Declude And Imail. IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring, SURBL/URI integration, MRTG Integration, and Log Parsers. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:22 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Question to thoes that are saying thatspam/virus protestion is a lost leader/not a revenue builder. If it does not generate revenue then why don't you stop offering spam/virus protection? Kevin Bilbee ---This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com. ---This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com. ---This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com. ---This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com. ---This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com. ---This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com. ---This E-mail came from the
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, 2:01:41 PM, R. Scott Perry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Contrary to your comments on the use of this forum, it has always RSP been for all things Declude when Scott was the sole player he never complained about the conversation RSP threads. Positive or negative. I think you could complain if say we were talking about phone systems. RSP On the other hand, I would be saying Hey, wait a minute here... :) Yes you would, but you never failed to listen and to soak in the comments from your customers and respond to them. You stood your ground tactfully when appropriate, but I can't remember when you ever devalued comments from the customer base as 'negative' nor suggest that follow-up posts about a topic you introduced to the list were inappropriate. RSP I would explain that Commtouch should indeed be treated as an addon to RSP Declude, not part of the base package (since it requires a huge amount RSP of manpower in the background). I would then explain that while the RSP revenue share plan may not seem ideal to everyone, people who don't find RSP the revenue share plan acceptable can either [1] continue using Declude RSP as they have with no extra cost, or [2] if they want to add real-time RSP scanning, they can go with an alternative like Message Sniffer. RSP It's encouraging that customers see this as a gotta have it addon, but RSP it is important to recognize that it should still be treated as an addon. I don't think there is an issue with understanding that Commtouch is an optional add-on, just the same as was Declude Virus and Declude Junkmail. I also don't think that the majority of customers consider it as a gotta have it, either, much the same as we didn't think Hijack was to die for. A close read of the many recent posts will disclose that the core issues are much more fundamental. There was a time when I thought that much of the criticism of Declude was exemplary of impatience and youth. I verbalize that to Barry and did the same in an e-mail message to David. However, at this juncture, enough time has passed for the new regime to be up to speed and in-touch with its customer base. Unfortunately, current performance doesn't make a dent in the performance when Scott Perry was running the firm, and that was with more limited resources, to boot. There always comes a time when people say enough is enough and if I were running Declude and saw all of these 'negative' posts, frankly, I'd be worried and get real busy listening, understanding and fixing what's broken. Moreover, I'd much rather deal with a customer who was willing to tell me what was broken and give me a chance to fix it rather than dealing with the silent customer who just went away. Thanks, Don Brown - Dallas, Texas USA Internet Concepts, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.inetconcepts.net (972) 788-2364Fax: (972) 788-5049 --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
Revenue sharing is a sales ploy and for all practical purposes doesn't really exist in the accounting world. For instance, if we pay a royalty or a commission on a sale, that payment goes into expenses on the PL statement. I guess you could say that all expenses share revenue, assuming there are less expenses than revenue so some revenue falls to the bottom line as profit. Logically, it follows that if there are more expenses than revenue, then there's just too much darn revenue sharing going on :-) As Matt and others have pointed out, e-mail, spam and virus systems are loss leaders for most ISP's and, as such, they don't generate a line item entry in revenue. Therefore, the revenue share ploy is inconceivable and impracticable. The Declude folks would have known this on the front end if they were in-touch with the many ISP customers among us or, at least, would have the fore thought to ask -- there is no doubt we would have told them. :-) Incidentally, I don't call it negative or lame, when one of our customers tell us what's broken or what won't work - I call that an opportunity. Thanks, Thursday, July 20, 2006, 8:36:47 AM, Darin Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DC Kevin, DC It would probably help for you to take a course or read a book on business DC accounting. There are cost centers, and revenue-generating centers. DC Sometimes it may be a judgement call as to where one item goes, as in spam DC filtering, but it is the business's call as to how they structure their DC pricing model, what is considered revenue-generating, and what is considered DC a cost. External parties have no business deciding what should be DC considered revenue-generating for any given business. DC Also, I think everyone is missing the point Matt has made several times of DC how do you decide how much revenue should be attributed to spam/virus DC filtering. How do you attach a value to it's contribution to keeping DC customers or obtaining new customers? Or a relative value of the service DC against other services like base email hosting, web hosting, traffic DC reports, control panels, database hosting, media hosting, tech support, DC maintenance, etc. Again, it's a judgement call. And since most businesses DC have different mixes of costs, pricing models, etc. it would take looking at DC each business individually to come up with some sort of revenue-sharing DC model. One size would most definitely not fit all. DC In short, while this idea may be creative, it's not the least bit DC practical. Revenue-sharing should be a misnomer, and pricing should be by DC server, domain, or account/alias. For a pricing model to be successful, DC subjectivity needs to be removed so that the factors determining it can be DC easily quantified. DC Darin. DC - Original Message - DC From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] DC To: declude.junkmail@declude.com DC Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:54 PM DC Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 DC No they do not impose a revenue sharing model, but toilet paper is still a DC consumable that indirectly makes restaurants money by keeping its customers DC happy. When it is there no one notices, when it is not customers definitely DC know and are put off. DC My comments are not about the revenue sharing but that email is a lost DC leader for an ISP. Lost leaders simply make business money by keeping the DC customers happy purchasing other higher margin products. Otherwise there DC would be no reason to sell a service for less than it costs to maintain. DC Kevin Bilbee -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn \ WCNet Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 2:01 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 I think one thing that happened here is that the announcement regarding ComTouch didn't make it *clear* that it is an *optional* part of Declude. MY initial impression was that *any* Service Provider who uses the version of Declude that incomes ComTouch would be required to participate in the licensing of it, by whatever scheme fit the bill. Now that I understand it's optional, fine, I don't have to use that part. The toilet paper manufacturer does not impose a per-customer usage fee or take a direct percentage of the restaurant's daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly sales. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:33 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Then I just do not get it. If revenue would not be lost without it and it costs you money to provide then what is the business case for providing the service? Last I checked business, are in business to make money on capital investments/expenditures. Not spend money for things that do not make money. An analogy: Does a restaurant make revenue from toilet paper? Kevin Bilbee -Original Message-
[Declude.JunkMail] Declude Status
Title: Message Hi, Let me make a few observations: - if it wasn't for the discussion on business policy, this list would not be busy at all. In fact, I note that I seldom see any new technical issues being discussed. - I understand that people from either side of the fence have various opinions about business decisions/policy - and I think everyone has voiced their opinions. Which is good. - I am very encouraged to see Declude personnel being very accessible on this list, responding to technical issues on the list and off-list in an informed and capable manner. I deeply feel that someone is at last taking "ownership" of the product and its customers again. Let's not frustrate those individuals. - I am pleased to see that there have been a few new Declude builds that addressed a few issues and have not introduced big "gotchas". - I do understand that some Declude customers have a list of outstanding problems that have not yet been addressed - but it does sound as if we do have their ear and they are trying to work the list. - I also agree that Declude has not added some sorely missed features in the past years. On the other hand, integrating a virus scanner with automatic update is something that many less-savvy administrators truly needed and certainly does count as a valuable offering. Offering a Sniffer alternative to SOME Declude customers (albeit not all), certainly can't be discounted either. - I don't know if those of us who have been holding off the upgrades are simply a very vocal majority - or if there are indeed only a few satisfied Declude 3.x / 4.x customers. I installed it on one of my co-lo customer's systemlast week- and it's been running fine (although with comparably moderate load). My suggestion is this: Now that everyone had a chance to voice their position regarding Declude business policies/strategies, let everyone determine for themselvesif any more posts on this issue really introduce new facts/facets - or if we are just keeping the thread alive for S/M and/or revengepurposes. I would love for the list to go back to discussing/prioritizing technical issues as this will help Declude advance their product for their and our benefit. I don't know if Declude will remain a vendor we can rely on - but I think after offering our opinions -we should ALL be allowed to get back to work. Best RegardsAndy SchmidtPhone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business)Fax: +1 201 934-9206 ---This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
Well then if your profit is negative and they wish to share in it, then they owe you money right?? : ) Marc -- Original Message -- From: Darin Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:39:52 -0400 MessageWhile customers are referred to us for our spam/virus filtering capabilities, we do operate it as a cost center, as the labor and other expenses involved are slightly higher than the additional revenue generated from them. Darin. - Original Message - From: Glenn \ WCNet To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 You're saying that email and spam/virus scanning is a service aspect that specifically draws customers to an ISP. I'm saying it doesn't, that's all. I've not once heard a customer state that email service was the deciding factor in choosing us, and there's no evidence it entices them to stay. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:01 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Then stop offering mail if it such a burden to the business. Explain to your customer that they can can go to Hotmail or Yahoo. When the addy gets horked by spammers, simply abandon it and create another. Let us know how many customers stay with your service. Of course you will not be able to quantify the lost new business! Kevin Bilbee From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn \ WCNet Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:55 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Hahahahaha! E-mail hardly keeps or draws customers. Anybody who wants e-mail can go to Hotmail or Yahoo. When the addy gets horked by spammers, simply abandon it and create another. Domain hosting, maybe a little. However, I have domain customers who have never used their included mail service. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:12 AM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 So then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it revenue would be lost. The ISP users need to ask is what level of these services do I need to offer to keep current customers happy and what level of service do I need to land new business? Kevin Bilbee From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 4:35 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Kevin, Mainly because in order to get other types of business that may bring revenue (hosting, etc) this type of service is expected. Look at any ISP/hosting provider that is offering $5.00 a month hosting plans this is what everyone competes with. Could you imagine yourself (consumer or small business) signing up with a hosting provider and them not handling your email or even better not virus scanning it? Even with yahoo/gmail you get free spam filtering and virus scanning. Darrell Check out http://www.invariantsystems.com for utilities for Declude And Imail. IMail/Declude Overflow Queue Monitoring, SURBL/URI integration, MRTG Integration, and Log Parsers. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:22 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Question to thoes that are saying that spam/virus protestion is a lost leader/not a revenue builder. If it does not generate revenue then why don't you stop offering spam/virus protection? Kevin Bilbee --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at
[Declude.JunkMail] Razor
I'd like to break the flow of the current discussion and circle back a number of posts to ask a question. I'm not familiar with either Razor or Cloudmark and Bill's mention of that service caught me unprepared. How does Razor fit into your analysis? Do you need SA or something similar to invoke Razor or does it come into play more directly? -- John --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
Title: Message This has been a great thread to follow and I just want to add my two cents worth. At the moment the whole issue of spam filtering is quite complex. Declude's configuration requires constant tweaking it seams. That translates into labour. If Declude can somehow manage to reduce the amount of labour and skill involved that would be of great value It would not necessarily earn us more money, but it can earn us more time. Personally I would like to have Declude running and then just forget about it. Well maybe I would continue reading this list because it can be entertaining and educational. Regarding revenue sharing. I do charge for anti-spam and anti-virus services. I don't compete with the mayor service providers that offer it for free. As with others on this list I offer personalized quality service to my clients. I attract clients that understand and desire that. I have never advertised. It does work. WhileI recognize that there is value to anything that frees up my time, I do have to keep an eye on net income also I spend money on tools and consume my time. Any revenue sharing program with a third party will be compared against what I do now. If it's clear and fits in comparison to what I do now,then it will be attractive to me. If it also saves time that will make some difference Harry Vanderzand inTown Internet Computer Services 519-741-1222 ---This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude Status
Here is what I want to see in the spam filtering solution. 1) The ability to automatically create a spam/junkmail folder at the user level whenever a newuser is created. 2) The ability to route items marked as spam to that folder at the user level. 3) The ability to delete items from the spam folder after x number of days. I have been told all this can be done but I have never seen a straight forward way to do it. Checking the spam filters is our most time consuming activity. Eliminating holding any spam above the user level would avoid a lot of problems and wasted time. A poll of our customers showed that tagging spam was not helpful to them. Chuck Schick Warp 8, Inc. (303)-421-5140 www.warp8.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Schmidt Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:28 AM To: Declude.JunkMail@declude.com Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude Status Hi, Let me make a few observations: - if it wasn't for the discussion on business policy, this list would not be busy at all. In fact, I note that I seldom see any new technical issues being discussed. - I understand that people from either side of the fence have various opinions about business decisions/policy - and I think everyone has voiced their opinions. Which is good. - I am very encouraged to see Declude personnel being very accessible on this list, responding to technical issues on the list and off-list in an informed and capable manner. I deeply feel that someone is at last taking ownership of the product and its customers again. Let's not frustrate those individuals. - I am pleased to see that there have been a few new Declude builds that addressed a few issues and have not introduced big gotchas. - I do understand that some Declude customers have a list of outstanding problems that have not yet been addressed - but it does sound as if we do have their ear and they are trying to work the list. - I also agree that Declude has not added some sorely missed features in the past years. On the other hand, integrating a virus scanner with automatic update is something that many less-savvy administrators truly needed and certainly does count as a valuable offering. Offering a Sniffer alternative to SOME Declude customers (albeit not all), certainly can't be discounted either. - I don't know if those of us who have been holding off the upgrades are simply a very vocal majority - or if there are indeed only a few satisfied Declude 3.x / 4.x customers. I installed it on one of my co-lo customer's system last week - and it's been running fine (although with comparably moderate load). My suggestion is this: Now that everyone had a chance to voice their position regarding Declude business policies/strategies, let everyone determine for themselves if any more posts on this issue really introduce new facts/facets - or if we are just keeping the thread alive for S/M and/or revenge purposes. I would love for the list to go back to discussing/prioritizing technical issues as this will help Declude advance their product for their and our benefit. I don't know if Declude will remain a vendor we can rely on - but I think after offering our opinions - we should ALL be allowed to get back to work. Best Regards Andy Schmidt Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
[Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request
Product: Declude Security Suite 4.x Function: Hijack Hijack is critical to ISPs today because viruses can show up at any time and get your server on a blacklist before you can detect and react. Problem #1 - After a customer has cleaned out their PC and removed the virus, there must be a method to allow them to send mail again but keep watching for a new virus infection. Currently the only solution is A to restart the Declude service or B put them in an allow section of the HIJACK.CFG file. Neither method is acceptable because A clears out other Hijack'd customers who you haven't yet been able to contact but are still spewing spam. B Allows them to resume sending real mail, but disables monitoring for future infections. Problem #2 - If the DecludeProc service crashes, or it is necessary to reboot, all Hijack entries are cleared. This is not acceptable because it clears out Hijack'd customer(s) still spewing spam. Some spams can get out before they reblacklist themselves. Suggestions- The Hijack function should periodically save out the blacklist state to a file - on IP address addition / change? Add a method of informing DecludeProc to remove an IP address from the blacklist entry. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request
Mike, The operation of Hijack is under review, thank you for your suggestions. David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike N Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 12:46 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request Product: Declude Security Suite 4.x Function: Hijack Hijack is critical to ISPs today because viruses can show up at any time and get your server on a blacklist before you can detect and react. Problem #1 - After a customer has cleaned out their PC and removed the virus, there must be a method to allow them to send mail again but keep watching for a new virus infection. Currently the only solution is A to restart the Declude service or B put them in an allow section of the HIJACK.CFG file. Neither method is acceptable because A clears out other Hijack'd customers who you haven't yet been able to contact but are still spewing spam. B Allows them to resume sending real mail, but disables monitoring for future infections. Problem #2 - If the DecludeProc service crashes, or it is necessary to reboot, all Hijack entries are cleared. This is not acceptable because it clears out Hijack'd customer(s) still spewing spam. Some spams can get out before they reblacklist themselves. Suggestions- The Hijack function should periodically save out the blacklist state to a file - on IP address addition / change? Add a method of informing DecludeProc to remove an IP address from the blacklist entry. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request
Mike, on problem 2, have you verified this? Decludeproc does indeed create a file in the Imail\Declude directory for use with Hijack. As for clearing an IP, I wonder if editing that file by removing the IP would clear it. Declude? John T eServices For You Seek, and ye shall find! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike N Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 9:46 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request Product: Declude Security Suite 4.x Function: Hijack Hijack is critical to ISPs today because viruses can show up at any time and get your server on a blacklist before you can detect and react. Problem #1 - After a customer has cleaned out their PC and removed the virus, there must be a method to allow them to send mail again but keep watching for a new virus infection. Currently the only solution is A to restart the Declude service or B put them in an allow section of the HIJACK.CFG file. Neither method is acceptable because A clears out other Hijack'd customers who you haven't yet been able to contact but are still spewing spam. B Allows them to resume sending real mail, but disables monitoring for future infections. Problem #2 - If the DecludeProc service crashes, or it is necessary to reboot, all Hijack entries are cleared. This is not acceptable because it clears out Hijack'd customer(s) still spewing spam. Some spams can get out before they reblacklist themselves. Suggestions- The Hijack function should periodically save out the blacklist state to a file - on IP address addition / change? Add a method of informing DecludeProc to remove an IP address from the blacklist entry. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
A book on accounting is not necessary. I am very familiar with cost centers. It is a fact that removing cost centers can cost a business revenue. So if a small ISP removes spam filtering from their offerings then their customers that want a one stop shop will go elsewhere. It is a balancing act. What cost centers help you retain customers? Which ones will get you new business? Electricity is also a cost center but without it you would not have any revenue generating services to offer! Kevin Bilbee -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 6:37 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Kevin, It would probably help for you to take a course or read a book on business accounting. There are cost centers, and revenue-generating centers. Sometimes it may be a judgement call as to where one item goes, as in spam filtering, but it is the business's call as to how they structure their pricing model, what is considered revenue-generating, and what is considered a cost. External parties have no business deciding what should be considered revenue-generating for any given business. Also, I think everyone is missing the point Matt has made several times of how do you decide how much revenue should be attributed to spam/virus filtering. How do you attach a value to it's contribution to keeping customers or obtaining new customers? Or a relative value of the service against other services like base email hosting, web hosting, traffic reports, control panels, database hosting, media hosting, tech support, maintenance, etc. Again, it's a judgement call. And since most businesses have different mixes of costs, pricing models, etc. it would take looking at each business individually to come up with some sort of revenue-sharing model. One size would most definitely not fit all. In short, while this idea may be creative, it's not the least bit practical. Revenue-sharing should be a misnomer, and pricing should be by server, domain, or account/alias. For a pricing model to be successful, subjectivity needs to be removed so that the factors determining it can be easily quantified. Darin. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:54 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 No they do not impose a revenue sharing model, but toilet paper is still a consumable that indirectly makes restaurants money by keeping its customers happy. When it is there no one notices, when it is not customers definitely know and are put off. My comments are not about the revenue sharing but that email is a lost leader for an ISP. Lost leaders simply make business money by keeping the customers happy purchasing other higher margin products. Otherwise there would be no reason to sell a service for less than it costs to maintain. Kevin Bilbee -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn \ WCNet Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 2:01 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 I think one thing that happened here is that the announcement regarding ComTouch didn't make it *clear* that it is an *optional* part of Declude. MY initial impression was that *any* Service Provider who uses the version of Declude that incomes ComTouch would be required to participate in the licensing of it, by whatever scheme fit the bill. Now that I understand it's optional, fine, I don't have to use that part. The toilet paper manufacturer does not impose a per-customer usage fee or take a direct percentage of the restaurant's daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly sales. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:33 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Then I just do not get it. If revenue would not be lost without it and it costs you money to provide then what is the business case for providing the service? Last I checked business, are in business to make money on capital investments/expenditures. Not spend money for things that do not make money. An analogy: Does a restaurant make revenue from toilet paper? Kevin Bilbee -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Robertson Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:57 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 On 7/19/06, Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So then indirectly it does generate revenue. Because without it revenue would be lost. Hardly. Carry that argument out to prove how wrong it is. By virtue of the fact
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request
When Decludeproc is restart the list of IP's maintained my hijack are reset. David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John T (Lists) Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:00 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request Mike, on problem 2, have you verified this? Decludeproc does indeed create a file in the Imail\Declude directory for use with Hijack. As for clearing an IP, I wonder if editing that file by removing the IP would clear it. Declude? John T eServices For You Seek, and ye shall find! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike N Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 9:46 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request Product: Declude Security Suite 4.x Function: Hijack Hijack is critical to ISPs today because viruses can show up at any time and get your server on a blacklist before you can detect and react. Problem #1 - After a customer has cleaned out their PC and removed the virus, there must be a method to allow them to send mail again but keep watching for a new virus infection. Currently the only solution is A to restart the Declude service or B put them in an allow section of the HIJACK.CFG file. Neither method is acceptable because A clears out other Hijack'd customers who you haven't yet been able to contact but are still spewing spam. B Allows them to resume sending real mail, but disables monitoring for future infections. Problem #2 - If the DecludeProc service crashes, or it is necessary to reboot, all Hijack entries are cleared. This is not acceptable because it clears out Hijack'd customer(s) still spewing spam. Some spams can get out before they reblacklist themselves. Suggestions- The Hijack function should periodically save out the blacklist state to a file - on IP address addition / change? Add a method of informing DecludeProc to remove an IP address from the blacklist entry. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request
Also it would be nice for it to optionally send an email to the postmaster (or whoever) when hold1 level reached and especially when hold2 level reached. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 12:49 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request Mike, The operation of Hijack is under review, thank you for your suggestions. David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike N Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 12:46 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request Product: Declude Security Suite 4.x Function: Hijack Hijack is critical to ISPs today because viruses can show up at any time and get your server on a blacklist before you can detect and react. Problem #1 - After a customer has cleaned out their PC and removed the virus, there must be a method to allow them to send mail again but keep watching for a new virus infection. Currently the only solution is A to restart the Declude service or B put them in an allow section of the HIJACK.CFG file. Neither method is acceptable because A clears out other Hijack'd customers who you haven't yet been able to contact but are still spewing spam. B Allows them to resume sending real mail, but disables monitoring for future infections. Problem #2 - If the DecludeProc service crashes, or it is necessary to reboot, all Hijack entries are cleared. This is not acceptable because it clears out Hijack'd customer(s) still spewing spam. Some spams can get out before they reblacklist themselves. Suggestions- The Hijack function should periodically save out the blacklist state to a file - on IP address addition / change? Add a method of informing DecludeProc to remove an IP address from the blacklist entry. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request
The file Console.txt seems to be write-only; it is useful for finding out what's going on, but I don't think it's possible to edit and have DecludeProc reread it unless it is just not documented some how. [Console.txt is displayed by the WebConfiguration GUI] - Original Message - From: John T (Lists) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike, on problem 2, have you verified this? Decludeproc does indeed create a file in the Imail\Declude directory for use with Hijack. As for clearing an IP, I wonder if editing that file by removing the IP would clear it. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
[Declude.JunkMail] OT: Imail
I know this belongs on the IMAIL forum but I'm not subscribed there -- apologies in advance. Does anyone know of a way to globally disable the information manager so I can prevent users from setting up auto-responders? Thx --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request
Check the archives for an old solution for hold notification. There is a vbs script that will do what your looking for. I have scheduled every 15 min. If there are any files in hold2, it emails me. I use something similar for the outgoing queue in case of a backup. The issue of outgoing mail has gotten much more serious over the years. It's getting to the point that it almost rates as much scrutiny and incoming mail. I've gotten burned from lists, bulk mailings and hijacked machinges. It takes days to get unlisted. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 10:19 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request Also it would be nice for it to optionally send an email to the postmaster (or whoever) when hold1 level reached and especially when hold2 level reached. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 12:49 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request Mike, The operation of Hijack is under review, thank you for your suggestions. David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike N Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 12:46 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request Product: Declude Security Suite 4.x Function: Hijack Hijack is critical to ISPs today because viruses can show up at any time and get your server on a blacklist before you can detect and react. Problem #1 - After a customer has cleaned out their PC and removed the virus, there must be a method to allow them to send mail again but keep watching for a new virus infection. Currently the only solution is A to restart the Declude service or B put them in an allow section of the HIJACK.CFG file. Neither method is acceptable because A clears out other Hijack'd customers who you haven't yet been able to contact but are still spewing spam. B Allows them to resume sending real mail, but disables monitoring for future infections. Problem #2 - If the DecludeProc service crashes, or it is necessary to reboot, all Hijack entries are cleared. This is not acceptable because it clears out Hijack'd customer(s) still spewing spam. Some spams can get out before they reblacklist themselves. Suggestions- The Hijack function should periodically save out the blacklist state to a file - on IP address addition / change? Add a method of informing DecludeProc to remove an IP address from the blacklist entry. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
But from an accounting perspective, no revenue is directly generated by them. Thus, no revenue to share from a cost center. So how much revenue do you attach to your electric bill? There are a million subjective ways to attach revenue to cost, and every business will have different nuances in the way they do it. That's what makes this proposed revenue-sharing model completely impractical. Darin. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:00 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 A book on accounting is not necessary. I am very familiar with cost centers. It is a fact that removing cost centers can cost a business revenue. So if a small ISP removes spam filtering from their offerings then their customers that want a one stop shop will go elsewhere. It is a balancing act. What cost centers help you retain customers? Which ones will get you new business? Electricity is also a cost center but without it you would not have any revenue generating services to offer! Kevin Bilbee -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darin Cox Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 6:37 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Kevin, It would probably help for you to take a course or read a book on business accounting. There are cost centers, and revenue-generating centers. Sometimes it may be a judgement call as to where one item goes, as in spam filtering, but it is the business's call as to how they structure their pricing model, what is considered revenue-generating, and what is considered a cost. External parties have no business deciding what should be considered revenue-generating for any given business. Also, I think everyone is missing the point Matt has made several times of how do you decide how much revenue should be attributed to spam/virus filtering. How do you attach a value to it's contribution to keeping customers or obtaining new customers? Or a relative value of the service against other services like base email hosting, web hosting, traffic reports, control panels, database hosting, media hosting, tech support, maintenance, etc. Again, it's a judgement call. And since most businesses have different mixes of costs, pricing models, etc. it would take looking at each business individually to come up with some sort of revenue-sharing model. One size would most definitely not fit all. In short, while this idea may be creative, it's not the least bit practical. Revenue-sharing should be a misnomer, and pricing should be by server, domain, or account/alias. For a pricing model to be successful, subjectivity needs to be removed so that the factors determining it can be easily quantified. Darin. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:54 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 No they do not impose a revenue sharing model, but toilet paper is still a consumable that indirectly makes restaurants money by keeping its customers happy. When it is there no one notices, when it is not customers definitely know and are put off. My comments are not about the revenue sharing but that email is a lost leader for an ISP. Lost leaders simply make business money by keeping the customers happy purchasing other higher margin products. Otherwise there would be no reason to sell a service for less than it costs to maintain. Kevin Bilbee -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn \ WCNet Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 2:01 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 I think one thing that happened here is that the announcement regarding ComTouch didn't make it *clear* that it is an *optional* part of Declude. MY initial impression was that *any* Service Provider who uses the version of Declude that incomes ComTouch would be required to participate in the licensing of it, by whatever scheme fit the bill. Now that I understand it's optional, fine, I don't have to use that part. The toilet paper manufacturer does not impose a per-customer usage fee or take a direct percentage of the restaurant's daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly sales. - Original Message - From: Kevin Bilbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:33 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Then I just do not get it. If revenue would not be lost without it and it costs you money to provide then what is the business case for providing the service? Last I checked business, are in business to make money on capital investments/expenditures. Not spend money for things that do not make money.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Hijack: Blocklist feature request
Responding to 2 posts. When Decludeproc is restart the list of IP's maintained my hijack are reset. I thought the purpose of the file was to retain IPs even when Decludeproc was restarted or stopped and then started. If not, I would like to suggest this. The file Console.txt seems to be write-only; it is useful for finding out what's going on, but I don't think it's possible to edit and have DecludeProc reread it unless it is just not documented some how. Feature request, a way to remove an IP without having to cycle Decludeproc. [Console.txt is displayed by the WebConfiguration GUI] So far, the hour I spent on my new server to get the Declude Web GUI working was unsuccessful. It also appears to be a bit cumbersome to use. John T eServices For You Seek, and ye shall find! --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3
--Raised Hand-- -- Original Message -- From: Gary Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 19:20:56 -0400 Basically you are telling me to ignore the Add Commtouch part of your web page that shows up when I log in to my account. What I find particularly amusing is the line Restrictions apply to service providers. If there is anyone subscribed to this mailing list who is not a service provider, please raise your hand. Isn't it generally a good idea to have your product's pricing defined before you introduce the product? I'm sure that everyone here reading the list is extremely curious as to what the revenue share program really is, and when it does come out, unless you hear exclamations of What a Bargain coming off this list there won't be many of us joining that program. Other than the Commtouch add-on, are there any other features or reasons to upgrade to 4.3? Original Message From: David Barker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:03 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 Gary, 1. Server Providers who use CommTouch as an add-in to Declude will be in violation of CommTouch's Terms of service. 2. Some of the benefits of CommTouch are Zero Hour virus protection and additional spam identifying technology such as Recurrent Pattern Detection Technology (RPD) recognized by key industry analysts as a leading technology in email outbreak detection. 3. We are in the process of defining the revenue share program and will provide the details to this when it is ready. David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Steiner Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:09 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 So, that being said, under what conditions can a legacy customer use Commtouch? Since it would seem that Commtouch is being offered as an add-on, what are the benefits of having Commtouch? What does it do that Declude alone does not? And of course it would be nice if this revenue share program was spelled out somewhere. Original Message From: David Barker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:57 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 There are restrictions on CommTouch being used by Service Providers we had to ensure that NEW customers (ie. Service Providers After 1 June 06) understand the licensing restrictions. Current Service Providers (ie. Before 1 June 06) are under no restrictions for using Declude; only the CommTouch add-in component. However we have managed to come to an agreement with CommTouch to enable our legacy customers (ie. Service Providers Before 1 June 06) to take advantage of CommTouch under a revenue share program, this program is not being forced onto legacy customers but will be an opportunity for us to help you increase revenues in your business, by providing you with new product like the Declude Gateway which would be independent of Imail/SmarterMail and will include CommTouch. David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John T (Lists) Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 3:02 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 I guess we all missed the following paragraph in the license agreement: 3.2.6 sub-license, rent, sell, lease, distribute, or otherwise transfer the Licensed Program save as provided under this End-User License Agreement unless You obtain a separate License from Declude, Inc. for such purposes (for example, You may not embed the Licensed Program into another application and then distribute such to third parties unless You first acquire an OEM License from Declude, Inc.). As of June 1, 2006, ISP's and other service providers are not permitted to use Declude software to clean and forward mail to customers unless a separate revenue share agreement has been established with Declude. http://www.declude.com/Articles.asp?ID=121 Is Declude trying to put us out of business? We pay for the software and now have to pay them some of your meager profits? John T eServices For You Seek, and ye shall find! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Steiner Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:24 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 4.3 I guess someone is going to make an official announcement today about Declude 4.3? I see that its downloadable in my account, but it would be nice to know what I'm getting before I
