Re: [libreoffice-projects] Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar out of Experimental
Hi there, On 09/11/2018 11:58, Edoardo Maria Elidoro wrote: > I do agree to move the Notebookbar out of experimental. > The latest updates on the Tabbed Toolbar in the master branch improved both > the usability and the look & feel making it (in my opinion) a really useful > and nice feature to have. > > I don't see a single reason why we should keep it in experimental. IIRC the ESC agreed to have the option to enable it appear by default at least in the run up to 6.2 to encourage more people to play with and (hopefully) debug the functionality. Hopefully it will be in a good enough state for 6.2 final - but there is no real magic way to make developers come & get involved and fix the shortcomings short of encouraging them when they show up, and evangelizing to / mentoring them. > Il giorno mar 6 nov 2018 alle ore 17:50 Pedro Rosmaninho < > mota.pr...@gmail.com> ha scritto: > >> - As for MacOS glitches, I tried it on a MacOS VM and the issues are minor >> aesthetic issues that do not impact its functionality. In fact, there are >> far more serious glitches in LO on MacOS not related with the notebookbar >> that warrant more attention. Would be interested in a tracker bug for those; I'm interested in a good, ordered list of the nastiest Mac bugs to fix. Thanks ! Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, GM Collabora Productivity Hangout: mejme...@gmail.com, Skype: mmeeks (M) +44 7795 666 147 - timezone usually UK / Europe -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Re: Improving comments support
Hi Heiko, On 04/03/17 23:02, Heiko Tietze wrote: > I doubt that we can modify the format- those changes are handled by > OASIS (http://opendocumentformat.org/, https://www.oasis-open.org/). > But there are more experience people around, and maybe your idea is > being discussed as a future enhancement. We have to continue to improve and evolve the file format; in this case to make it more interoperable and powerful; that's completely normal - we're involved with OASIS and will push to get extensions standardized of course. The other comment pointers are rather useful - thanks =) ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Share 3D models in the new web site for templates and extensions
Hi Heiko, On 17/12/16 10:17, Heiko Tietze wrote: > Impress can handle > > JSON - GL Transmission Format > DAE - COLLADA > KMZ - Keyhole Markup language zipped I'm not a huge fan of making the Collada / GLTF stuff extraordinarily prominent until there is better GL support everywhere, and we've cleaned up the implementation of that. > http://zolnaitamas.blogspot.de/2014/08/3d-models-in-impress-libreoffice-43.html There is quite a backlog of work needed to make this something robust and future-proof I think. Lets not create a maintenance nightmare by encouraging widespread use of that format yet (unless Tamas disagrees) =) Thanks, Michae. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] LibreColor-HLC palette ...
Hi Christoph, On 13/12/16 06:26, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote: >> Von: "Michael Meeks" Of course, if >> you can move on the licensing: ie. giving a license that is >> compatible with our goals as a Free-Software project, then I >> suspect TDF could give you some guarentee that at least the TDF >> distribution of LibreOffice (which is some big chunk of the >> user-base) will not itself be distributing a modified palette with >> this name - might that work ? > > Regarding the licence, I think we can easily come to an agreement, > since fF is not married to the current version: If TDF can guarantee > that there are some safeguards in place to protect the integrity of > the original SOC file in LibreOffice versions distributed by TDF, you > can use the palette under the MPL 2.0, which seems to be the current > LO licence. If necessary, we can also do this on paper with > signatures from one German non-profit to another ;) Sounds perfect to me; lets proceed with this approach. In terms of signatures on paper - we can do that, but it will take some significant effort. I suspect that we can achieve a similar result socially anyway. What I propose is that - I take this to the ESC; and we think it through & come up with a decision there, which we can minute. TDF has really no interest in breaking your palette so my hope is that this is easy to achieve. After that - I suggest, that you write a (normal) license statement for the palette; and I'll respond to that referring to the ESC decision and committing us to either not changing it in the TDF version. If that works for you, I hope we can close the topic ! =) the next ESC call is on Thursday, and you're welcome to come of course; dial in details are here: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/ESC-call-Thursday-16-00-central-European-time-td4125102.html And thanks for being so flexible ! and of course for promoting LibreOffice it is great to have smart & creative people involved with our design community =) All the best, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Aw: [libreoffice-design] Fwd: Re: Re: Re: LibreColor-HLC palette
Hi Christoph, Thanks for reaching out here =) no-one is questioning the very significant advantages of your work, or of consistent palettes across platforms, indeed it all sounds like a great feature. On 12/12/16 07:31, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote: > 6) I'm not opposed to an extension, but I haven't created one > before, and I simply do not have the time to get acquainted with all > of the necessary details before your 5.3 release. If someone could > step up and create the OXT file, I'd be grateful for the assistance. Possibly someone can help out with this; unfortunately being an extension will reduce the up-take to some regrettably tiny fraction of the user-base. > 7) If you can find a way to make the HLC colours a part of 5.3, all > the better, but the colour values need to be protected against > inadvertent or intentional modification in the default installation. Of course, if you can move on the licensing: ie. giving a license that is compatible with our goals as a Free-Software project, then I suspect TDF could give you some guarentee that at least the TDF distribution of LibreOffice (which is some big chunk of the user-base) will not itself be distributing a modified palette with this name - might that work ? Ultimately, I think the idea that someone is going to come and modify the palette down-stream from TDF is extremely unlikely anyway (FWIW) - but the principle of being able to change and improve the software, data etc. is an -extraordinarily- precious one to many. So - in many ways I think we're splitting hairs here; there is little-to-no risk of changing it, so the freedom we're fighting for will in effect never be used, but - still, I fully understand why people want to protect that freedom =) > freieFarbe e.V. wants LibreOffice to succeed in the creative space, > which also needs an office suite. We even promoted it successfully in > Switzerland as the better alternative to MS Office. So please let us > find a way to make LibreOffice the office tool of choice for > publishing workflows. Thanks for supporting LibreOffice ! =) All the best, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Blog post about versioning
On 30/11/16 12:55, Heiko Tietze wrote: > started as input for the Sharepoint version control the proposal is > now more general about versioning. I fear that we're promoting this (AFAIK horrible) internal in-file versioning feature. I'm unsure that we want to do anything to make that more prominent - it seems like a confusing combination of concerns that are prolly better kept separate (to me at least). By the time we have red-lining, and in-file-versioning, and out-of-file versioning to show all in the same place ... ;-) I was hoping we'd end up with a nice place to make document specific details more easy to find and handle; for example: * file-list - of all embedded files -> "drag and drop images out" * accessibility information -> how many items without labels? * spreadsheet formulae summary: what formulae are used, and where, and what are the external references to and ... * document level defaults & settings * ... There are lots of 'document level' details - like versioning that we are missing a nice central place to put. AFAICS a chunk of interesting new functionality that would be easy to draw together, and present in a convenient central location rather than scattered across a large set of hidden dialogs and menu items left & right. I guess this doesn't solve my problem in this regard. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] pdf import design docs?
Hi Larry, First - really great to have you looking at that code ! =) On 10/05/2016 04:10 PM, Larry Evans wrote: > I'm trying to understand how the pdf import code works. > I've tried looking at the code; however, that's hard to > follow; hence, I was hoping there was some sort of design > document explaining somewhat how the code works. Second - the design list is really for User Experience / developer interaction, and this seems like a real gnarly coding problem - so I've re-sent it to the dev-list =) > TIA for any pointers. Sure - so the PDF import is a bit of a mess; it currently spawns a remote process using poplar to parse the PDF, and then extracts (via a simple text protocol) data from poplar's rendering to re-constitute into internal ODF callbacks to produce an internal document; at least - that's if I got it right =) Poplar/xpdf has a GPL license and so requires all this silliness. In general - it would be -way- better to pick up something like eg. pdfium - and add a rendering front-end there to match first, the same protocol (but we can do this in-process), and subsquently to simplify and factor lots of that madness out =) PDFium seems to be gaining traction in browsers (Chrome + Firefox) and so on. Does that make sense ? out of interest, what bug or mis-feature are you interested in there ? are you looking at: filter/source/pdf and sdext/source/pdfimport ? =) ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Icons + legends for Slide Transition selector for 5.1 ...
Hi Jay, On Tue, 2015-11-24 at 18:12 +0400, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips wrote: > Just to update you that Andreas and I will be working on it. Wonderful news =) thanks for that ! > Would be useful to sort the transition list (tdf#87613), with None at > the beginning and Random at the bottom, similar to the patch Tor wanted > to push in before moving the variants into their own drop down menu. > https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/19648/ I have no view at all; but I'm sure it can be improved. The big remaining thing there I think was splitting out the tooltips from the legends - which (IIRC) needed some more ValueSet API, and some punching through from the XML to the UI to propagate them, so the translators don't get too frustrated by the need to be brief there =) Currently, I'm trying to improve interactivity rather a lot by tweaking the main-loop to process idle events only when idle; seems promising so far... but not working on this. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Icons for Slide Transition selector for 5.1 ...
Hi guys, I've switched the slide transition selector to something based on icons; actually I'm concurrently looking at adding rendering to the ValueSet to add the labels underneath too and prettify the selection. As you can see my already terrible artistic abilities are not improved by having taken Tor's smaller demo icons and scaled them to the 64x40 pixel footprint we're looking for there. Anyhow - it would be very much appreciated if we could come up with a pretty set of base icons in the galaxy/ theme here. They live in: icon-themes/galaxy/sd/cmd/transition-*.png Where * has these values (of sets) from: officecfg/registry/data/org/openoffice/Office/UI/Effects.xcu so transition-venetian-blinds.png etc. ... =) Is that possible ? help much appreciated =) ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: Icons + legends for Slide Transition selector for 5.1 ...
With some more gerrit'y action: https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/19913 Encourage ValueSet to render a legend as well as an icon. https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/19914 Shorten transition group names to make them better legends. It now looks more like the attached; hopefully its an improvement. Then again - the sizing of that widget / side-bar is pretty irritating, with a few more pixels (in English) it would wrap more nicely. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: Icon theme licenses
On Mon, 2015-10-19 at 23:52 +0200, Thorsten Behrens wrote: > Yousuf 'Jay' Philips wrote: > > I'm bringing up this issue as the designer of the Kalahari icon theme for > > LibreOffice, Mariano Gaudix, would like to upstream his work, as he has been > > actively working on it and had previously asked about including it in the > > past. The Kalahari icon theme comes in colored and monochrome versions and > > it includes work from GPL-licensed Human and Faenza. > > how about discussing this on the ESC this week, if you can make it? > Personally, I'm not super-eager to deviate from this project's > established license practice (CC-BY/LGPL/MPL) - curiously, the > gnome-look page you link to even states Kalahari is MPL? The GPL seems a particularly silly license for artwork =) but it is quite common; we already ship and include Human under this in the source. The ideal here of course would be to find someone with the tenacity to chase-down the original authors and get some more sensible rights such as CC0 or somesuch to at least one base-set of icons. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
On Tue, 2013-10-15 at 00:33 +0200, Cor Nouws wrote: > Mateusz Zasuwik wrote (14-10-13 23:01) > > Guys, are you serious? Currently Start Center for LO 4.2 is horrible! Is I rather imagine this was done by a GSOC student based on a design provided by the UX team :-) if the result is horrible, I'd want to know how closely it matches the design provided. It is rather expensive chopping and changing this stuff around continually - drawing some new pixels takes a few minutes, re-writing, testing, validating, translating, delivering the new code takes man weeks. Anyhow - this IIRC was Kendy's baby, I'd CC him on any discussion (if you can maintain that CC) :-) ATB, Michael. > It is when empty. Therefore the request from Kendy for something else. > > > here any guy from UX Team? My friend is professional designer and when I > > showed him new LibreOffice, he ask "what is purpose of these small icons?" > > Yep... > > > Please reject this awful interface and do something more attractive and > > intuitive! > > > > I asked him for better mockup and he did this. > > > > http://i.imgur.com/iJcSVxU.jpg > > +1 > > And I think it's usefull too for a next step, the file menu! > > Michael, something intersting? -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] hand drawn boxes ? ...
Hi guys, I just got a set of nice documents from Artur created via: http://yuml.me/diagram/scruffy/class/samples And I love the balance between authenticity and crispness of the boxes they use ;-) I guess, algorithmically we could try to detect and randomly perturb straight strokes in our boxes - and that might be quite fun to implement to do something similar - but at least as a stop-gap, would anyone be interested in drawing a set of four or five rough rectangles with a nice gradients as draw-shapes for a stop-gap gallery ? :-) Just a thought, Michael. -- michael.me...@suse.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] AOO for Android - not worth the download
Hi there, On Sat, 2013-06-22 at 11:41 -0400, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote: > After the initial load/splash screen, I waited for over 4 minutes and I > still could not get the keyboard or any other controls to work. Our prototype (which we're working quietly on) is better in many regards already: http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/master/Android-ARM@24-Bytemark-Hosting/current/ The ExperimentalDesktop one - *but* - we're not at all interested in user input / bug reports (yet) - only patches - we know there are plenty of issues ;-) On the other hand - we are interested in patches, and people helping out with development there. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@suse.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] RE: New name for Sifr theme?
On Sun, 2013-06-23 at 08:59 +, Issa Alkurtass wrote: > "Symbolic" is fine. Can't say I didn't expect this. > Although to be fair Tango is also a video messaging app among other software > ;) IMHO the important thing is that those who designed and did all the work on the theme get to choose what it is called :-) But of course, hopefully they listen to persuasion ;-) ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@suse.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Articles about LibreOffice design process
Hi Michel, On Thu, 2013-04-11 at 01:10 +0200, Michel Renon wrote: > I inform you that I wrote a list of 9 articles about LibreOffice, > specially about the design process. The first starts here : > http://mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-design-process-part-1-the-context/ Some interesting thoughts there some sensible, some completely extraordinary :-) So - in general, I'd like to ignore for now all those suggestions that revolve around telling other people: volunteers, busy professionals supporting users, etc. what to do: they seem doomed to failure. Some examples: "TDF could define some priority tasks : developers should work on nothing but those tasks ... it seems difficult to say that to volunteer developers, but TDF should really find a way to do that" In which case - here are my priority tasks for you to do as a volunteer, I hope you will do them in time for the deadline I'm about to set you of next week ? ;-> + show leadership in the UX community by contributing prolifically + eg. as an example we still have an open request (last I looked) for a design: cf. the "ESC minutes" " need design for copying styles between templates (Astron/UX) + either in that dialog or a new dialog + also issue with only editing templates that are in the mgr" This is a proposal with resources backing it and waiting to implement and interact with you on that design. I fail to understand what stops those with fire in their belly around improving the UX from actually getting involved and working on that :-) [ perhaps it's been handled already on the list but if so it took several weeks and several reminders to get action ;-]. + show leadership, build consensus among the warring factions and come up with a set of ideal UX designs to sell to development. NB. worth checking that you have buy-in from whichever developers you want to work on those. + start working on improving the UX - all constructive patches are welcome - I've not seen any sane UX patch rejected in recent time. > There is a very-condensed version of my feedback and proposals : > http://mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-libre-office-design-process-part-9-conclusion/ So - given the relative impossibility of: "the TDF should define rules to be sure that every part of the roadmap is executed (ie important functionalities are developed on time instead of developers working on non-important functionalities)" I strongly suggest another set of thoughts: * Designers should lead by inspiration, good relations with developers, and producing designs so compelling that developers cannot resist taking time to implement them :-) * Designers should respond quickly to interest and questions from developers to ensure that they build good relationships and are at the forefront of the latest feature development Beyond that, there is nothing stopping the design team coming up with a set of proposals for where to take the product; it would be ideal if there was even buy-in from lots of designers rather than a series of fragmented efforts. It would be even better if those proposals were sane from a development perspective: you don't need a coder to stand beside you holding your hand to realise that when you start with a blank sheet of paper for your design - it is most likely not going to fly in linear time. Designers also need to recognise that currently many full-time developers are employed by fixing and sustaining enterprise usage of LibreOffice, so "suggestion #1 - cut out all the features" is a total non-starter, no matter how sexy the design might look; a better start is "suggestion #1 - conditionally hide many of the power features" for example. Anyhow - some interesting thoughts; thanks for writing them down, even if this seems like yet another iteration in the endless re-learning of: + designers cannot -tell- developers what to do, they can only work with and educate hackers constructively (or do some hacking themselves" + we emphatically -do-not- have a feature-based released schedule - it is time-based, and we stop for ~nothing. Which are really bed-rocks of the development process and successful inter-team interactions. They are also not unusual - GNOME has a very hard (release to the minute) time-based release schedule, and has also manged to do significant UX change (not all of which has been viewed positively FWIW). My personal analysis is that this is fundamentally a resource problem - and that growi
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [libreoffice-design] Send Feedback Option
Hi guys, On Thu, 2012-11-29 at 19:53 +0100, Rainer Bielefeld wrote: > I like it! And I have some proposals for additions. Hah :-) so - JFYI - when people click on send-feedback, we now have more details about their systems: the exact version of the software they're running, the platform, the component (writer, base etc.) and more. That would need propagating to "file a bug" of course; but we could use it with some nice database to correlate results by component. But - yes; this is rather cool :-) I wonder - Mozilla have done a lot of this work before us - can we re-use their backend infrastructure and share development work on that ? it'd suck to re-invent all their data analytics / query processing etc. ? Of course, actually swallowing and meaningfully analysing text behind things like: http://input.mozilla.org/en-US/feedback is prolly beyond us ATM, but ... perhaps worth collecting if someone will do real analytics on it. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@suse.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] New icons in Tango
Hi Stefan, On Thu, 2012-04-12 at 13:03 +0200, Stefan Knorr (Astron) wrote: > about a week ago, Michael (M.) noticed on ux-advise that some icons in > LibreOffice's Tango theme had been replaced. Well, I replaced those > and didn't do the sensible thing and discuss these changes first... Heh ;-) that's fine, as long as it is intentional I guess. > I'd like to make up for that lack of discussion. Thus, I've created a > wiki page to show an overview over all the icons I've changed since > 3.5: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Tango_refresh_3. Of course, my random / hackers asthetic feeling (which is perfectly fine to write-off as invalid :-) is that overall there is an improvement here :-) The purple for the f(x) is a but odd to me, I rather liked the crisp, same coloured triplet of similar icons there in calc, and IMHO the new one looks rather 'busy' vs. the old one. Same interest wrt. the purple color for the plugin icon - but perhaps we move to a more multi-colored theme :-) > The Start Center icons have been discussed on the Design list already, > albeit mostly with Alex. There are a few icons that I feel are mostly > uncritical (Media Player, Writer Toolbar, the icons imported from the > "official" Tango theme in the Extension Manager) and of course there > are some that definitely need another round of replacing (Open File, > Extension) and some that hopefully only need refining (Formula "f(x)" > icon). Sure :-) > So, I would love to hear your feedback! (Of course, if you want to > work on these further, that'd be great.[1]) So - it's all fine with me, I just wanted to make sure we were not slipping back Galaxy icons into the theme by mistake (by loosing the industrial layer eg.). Thanks ! Michael. -- michael.me...@suse.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] [proposal] Dark application background
Hi there, On Tue, 2011-07-19 at 07:37 +0200, Christoph Noack wrote: > True - in the first step, we should follow the OS preference - so all > programs on the user's computer behave the same way. There really is no OS preference for application background that I'm aware of on unix/gtk+ - quite possibly I'm just missing it but ... ;-) > If there is a need to tweak it, then we should only change "little" How to change it is a difficult thing to choose of course. > > Or somesuch so the situation could be rescued by themes that do odd > > things with contrast. It'd be a nice easy hack I guess if someone wants > > to file the bug and/or add it to the easy-hack page and/or post a tested > > patch to the dev list. :-) > > Do you mean "Themes" like having a group of settings to be applied > together - like "LibreOffice Spring Style" (containing definitions for > icons style, UI colors, background graphics). That would be something > I'd support :-) Is this what you are thinking about as well? Nope - I mean allowing the existing gtk+ themes to specify what the libreoffice app background color is, using a special tweak-able. We could feasibly add a number of these and encourage theme authors & distro creators to tweak them to something that suits their taste. That of course involves some work - but its quite do-able work. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] Fwd: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37996
Hi Imacat, This really belongs on the design list; please reply only to there, unless you have a patch or are seriously considering doing the work; as/when you are committed there - then: libreoffice-ux-adv...@lists.freedesktop.org is a better forum. My personal take is that the longer name is more descriptive and helpful - if it fits into the normal Unix app selection guis, but we should have a holistic solution for all apps, and the UX guys would want to have some input here. Please take it off the dev list though. Thanks, Michael. On Tue, 2011-07-19 at 00:23 +0800, imacat wrote: > Dear all, > > Hi. This is imacat from Taiwan. I received a mail from some friend > in Canonical, Taiwan. What do you think about this, to change the title > from "LibreOffice Calc" to "LibreOffice Calc Spreadsheet"? > > I know that this is technically very easy. The problem is: Is this > appropriate? > > --- Original Mail --- > Subject: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37996 > Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 19:47:07 +0800 > From: Kevin Huang > To: ima...@mail.imacat.idv.tw > > Hi Imacat, > > Sorry for the cold email for LibreOffice feature request. I am > wondering you might be able to help it. > > I submitted a feature request below. > > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37996 > > The application name showing on menu is LibreOffice, LibreOffice Calc... > It > > would definitely help LibreOffice adoption from new users and from users in > none-English speaking countries, ex: CJK countries, if the application name > showing "LibreOffice Calc Spreadsheet" instead of "LibreOffice Calc" only. > > > This feature might not be important to English speaking people, but > certainly help to improve Libreoffice adoption in none-English speaking > countries. For example, LibreOffice Calc Spreadsheet will be shown > "LibreOffice Calc 試算表" in Traditional Chinese. I believe most > Traditional Chinese speaking people will feel friendly on it and are > willing to try it. > > ___ > LibreOffice mailing list > libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] [proposal] Dark application background
Hi Alex, On Thu, 2011-07-14 at 22:34 +0100, Alex B wrote: > I'd realy love to see a darker application background in Writer. As you know, > the appearance of LibreOffice depends on the used GTK Theme. Because most GTK > Themes are light and bright, the contrast between the application background > and the document is to low (especially on monitors with low contrast) [1]. So - there are several things we could do here, to try to improve things here; first - I got annoyed with the UI showing a white color as the 'auto' color, so I updated the widget to show the (actual) Automatic color in the combo preview - that improves the look. It seems this is the svtools/source/config/colorcfg's APPBACKGROUND setting, which we fetch from: Application::GetSettings().GetStyleSettings().GetWorkspaceColor(); Which we set from: vcl/unx/gtk/gdi/salnativewidgets-gtk.cxx like this: // background colors Color aBackColor = getColor( pStyle->bg[GTK_STATE_NORMAL] ); Color aBackFieldColor = getColor( pStyle->base[ GTK_STATE_NORMAL ] ); aStyleSet.Set3DColors( aBackColor ); aStyleSet.SetFaceColor( aBackColor ); aStyleSet.SetDialogColor( aBackColor ); aStyleSet.SetWorkspaceColor( aBackColor ); aStyleSet.SetFieldColor( aBackFieldColor ); aStyleSet.SetWindowColor( aBackFieldColor ); aStyleSet.SetCheckedColorSpecialCase( ); I would certainly be up for tweaking some of those colors to darken them; we prolly want to assign 'SetWorkspaceColor' to a temporary and do: if (col.IsDark()) col.IncreaseLuminance(20); else col.DecreaseLuminance(20); Or something equivalent; of course, these kind of tweaks are really not -that- wonderful ;-) and it's probable that we'd want to allow overriding with: // hyperlink colors GdkColor *link_color = NULL; gtk_widget_style_get (m_pWindow, "app-workspace-color", &link_color, NULL); if (link_color) ... Or somesuch so the situation could be rescued by themes that do odd things with contrast. It'd be a nice easy hack I guess if someone wants to file the bug and/or add it to the easy-hack page and/or post a tested patch to the dev list. :-) HTH, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [libreoffice-design] Option for gridline display in Calc (fdo#30800)
Hi Andre, On Fri, 2011-06-24 at 09:57 +0200, Andre Schnabel wrote: > In fact the "Grid Color" option in Calc - View can (imho) be easily > dropped. We already have an option for Calc Grid colors in LibreOffice - > Apperance. The Calc - View setting is only used, if the option at > LibreOffice - Apperance is set to "automatic". Looks quite confusing to > me. Ooh - interesting; presumably we have some per-document grid color setting that this reflects (?) so you can make the grid pink, save the document, and re-load it elsewhere. Perhaps this highlights some of the problems of separating document settings from application settings, and in particular application defaults for document settings ;-) Otherwise I'm well up for adding a compatibility option for this ;-) though IMHO the default should be to behave in a familiar way to our deluge of new exiles from the Microsoft world ;-) Thanks ! Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] icon in GNOME3
Hi Florian, On Mon, 2011-04-04 at 12:34 +0200, Florian Effenberger wrote: > I just got notice that the LibO icon in GNOME3 seems to be the OOo logo, > see > http://derstandard.at/1297821927182/Ansichtssache-GNOME3---Details-der-neuen-Desktop-Generation?sap=2&_slideNumber=8&_seite= > Anyone from GNOME reading this list and can make necessary changes? ;-) Hmm - I guess, that looks like the icon we install; and the ones we're using on my desktop too (odd). Having said that, have we fixed the palette / sizing issues around the existing icons and their integration with Tango ? it would be nice to have that for the 3.4. Also - I guess the design guys should have commit access to the icons by now, if not whomever is working hardest on that should get it [ please mail me privately ]. Thanks, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] Review needed to try to resurrect "add slide thumbnails to HTML export" part
Hi Julien, On Fri, 2011-03-25 at 00:25 +0100, Julien Nabet wrote: > I worked a little on "add slide thumbnails to HTML export" part. > The code compiles ok with Debian testing updated x86 (and no parameter > at all in autogen), gcc (Debian 4.5.2-4) Nice work :-) > I only tried this : > - create a impress document with 2 slides > - export to XHTML, HTML and save it in test.html Good stuff. > then I got these files : .. > I don't know if it's what was expected but i'm sure it needs some > reviewing since I added, changed and removed 1 or 2 things from the > original patch. Heh - so, the essence is that the front-page of the slideshow: - test.html should have a little mosaic of the slides that you can click on (prolly this needs some html div/whatever love - perhaps we can ask the UI/design guys about that as/when we create the new list for that). > If this patch is ok, i can of course push it. Looks fine to me :-) please do push it if it works as I outline above ;-) We should also consult the design team as to whether they want this to be optional; there is a big white-space for 'options' in the 2nd page of the HTML export wizard that we could whack that into. Then again, IMHO adding gratuitous options is mostly cowardly (as previously discussed), either way IMHO the option should be on by default if it is there I think. No doubt, there is quite some scope for cleaning up the HTML the HTML export dialog generates too in the light of the modern web. While we're there; we should prolly ask the design guys to address the -very- blury artwork banners in that HTML export dialog, it looks odd to me (though perhaps it is a 'feature-not-bug' ;-) Thanks ! Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] General relationship between coders and designers (was: [PUSHED]fdo#31251...)
Hi Bernhard, On Wed, 2011-03-09 at 22:11 +0100, Bernhard Dippold wrote: > At first I want to thank Sébastien not only for his work, but also for > being open to the discussion here, even if this means to delay the final > inclusion of his patch. Agreed - we all think Sebastien rocks ;-) That we can agree on first, and this debate is not in fact about him - he acted in an exemplary manner (so I dropped the CC). Firstly, I of course want to apologise that my mail made you mad - clearly I was trying to redress an imbalance I was concerned might exist, and over-emphasised one side to try to help re-balance things. Unfortunately, that tipped the balance completely the other way - which I can understand (in retrospect) sounds upsetting, sorry. Having said that, I do think there might be some difference of understanding here, so lets dive into more detail. Also, apologies for not reading the mail - I spent yesterday heads down, doing many hours of tedious, mostly mindless merging work - the kind of stuff that makes programmers feel like donkeys involving no interesting, creative decisions at all ;-) It is an intricate, painful, mind-blowingly tedious task - but someone has to do it :-) Anyhow ... > If Michael (as one of the most relevant developer in our community) is > right with attitude against non-coding contributors I hope I'm not against anything, particularly not designer developers :-) I am -for- encouraging coders to get their code into the product, and for designers to get their ideas realised *and* simultaneously to create a fun place for everyone to work together, with good relationships. Of course that seems to have gone wrong here, and needs fixing :-) > and if this is the official position of the LibreOffice project So - of course, my view is not an official position. Having said that, it is perhaps worth discussing. In the sphere of design, I see the design team as having a whole spectum of responsibility. At one end - one similar to the coder's and at the other a critical advisory and leadership role. So - starting at the coder-like end: * hard ownership role: + I expect the design team to own all of the artwork, icon themes, etc. in the product. + if I go adding garish / new icons to a theme, I expect to get beaten up by you guys - this is yours, all yours :-) * middler-ground role + defaults / dialog layout etc. + clearly this is fuzzier: dialog layout is (currently) dependent on l10n, so some things can't be done: we can't wedge 10x buttons into a small space ;-) + defaults can have a huge impact on performance, maintenance, complexity and code flow + changes to dialog layout & behaviour require coding support - which -must- be -persuaded- not dictated * weak ownership + "lets re-architect the whole user interface" + the weakness here is mostly one of coding resource, and impact on architecture + it is simply not possible or practicle to dictate terms to other teams + rejecting inclusion of working improvements + this has an incredibly negative impact on the growth and fun of the coding community. ie. Sebastian's work was merged before getting UI review, this I expect to continue. So - I suspect the arguments here are around the 'middle' and 'weak' categories, what belongs where and what happens in what order etc. Personally, I don't have a defined view of how that works. In everything that I'm involved in I prefer informal, relational process. This means that "power" such as a "veto power" and the like simply don't exist :-) If designers feel -extremely- strongly that something shouldn't go in - I'd want to listen very carefully since you contribute so much; but if the relevant developer feels similarly strongly, then we'd have a problem and need to dig more (and so it goes on). I don't think hard and fast rules capture the real world in an incredibly helpful way in these situations. > When coders are allowed and encouraged to do their changes regardless > of the voting of the relevant experts in areas their code contribution > touches, we come back to a two-class community I don't think there is a two-class community, I think there are tons of people with different domain expertise - and that we should listen carefully to each of them and come up with a balanced solution that pleases as many people as possible: l10n, coders, designers, etc. I also don't believe that all developers by definition have no design sense and insight :-) I -do-not- see the design team having an "ultimate say" in this world, where their word is
Re: More general stuff (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout)
Hi Sebastien, On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 21:53 +0100, Sébastien Le Ray wrote: > I think we should close the "shadows" chapter before starting on notes. > Do I implement a 4 borders shadow or may I apply the same design to > Draw and Impress (we have to maintain some consistency between modules, > I don't think it's a good thing to have a specific shadow for Writer). I would go for Draw & Impress personally, and/or don't feel you need to ask any permission :-) > Do the design team members have a master build to look for good > defaults (color/blur) for the shadow? If not how can we progress on it? > Do you want screenshots of various colors? IMHO, re-applying what we have to all the other office apps would be rather sweet & hopefully not impossibly hard (?). > Waiting for your instruction before going on :) Please don't do that - please just get on & do cool stuff :-) Speaking of which, I was admiring the blue gradient 'desktop' background in another office application just now ;-) ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] Re: [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout
Hi Sebastien, On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 09:09 +0100, Sébastien Le Ray wrote: > this simple shadow patch has generated a long discussion on > Libreoffice-design. Some people don't like the color, some people don't > like the amount of blur, some people want no shadow at all, some people > want a "4 borders" shadow. So here is a second patchset that tries to > address the first three critics : So - firstly, this -sounds- like an interaction disaster :-) I hope it is not of course, but it looks like this: We finally get a competant, enthusiastic, motivated developer - actually fixing our horrible user interface problems: and he does some great improvement - and our design guys apparently emit a long stream of complaining left and right ! That, if true, is hard to excuse. We need to greet new guys with a torrent of encouragement instead I think. I hope I'm wrong - I don't read the design list because I can't interact there [ Reply-To: mangling sucks ;-] - but this paragraph smells problematic. I think we need to remember that the perfect is the sworn enemy of the good - so lets get good across the code, before we get perfect. Perhaps we should move all programmer interaction on design / UI topics onto this list, or a new Freedesktop one - and leave the 'design' list as more of a 'discuss' type forum. Sebastien, I hear the complaints; and I read your nice patches (and just pushed them[1]), but did you really want to do all of this ? If not, I'll revert what you don't like. Personally, I would have preferred you to move on to some other fun / high-impact win, rather than getting bogged down in random details here ;-) You did a great job learning how the .src / etc. madness works though :-) good stuff there, it is not completely obvious. > - It adds a configuration option .. > - It adds a configuration option to disable shadow; In my experience of user interaction - adding configuration options is a cowardly, and silly way to deal with disagreements about defaults :-) [ not your fault, the design team's issue; check out the settings dialog in any Apple product ]. IMHO we badly need to hide / remove tons of our pointless configuration options - which incidentally also slow down program execution, slow down our startup, bloat our user interface, make testing harder, and thus our code buggier and so on. [ At least, I'm willing to argue that in detail but ... ;-] Personally, I liked what Sebastian did originally - it was sufficiently better to be really nice; was there any real need to bloat the feature, further complicate the code, and discuss this minutia to death ? do I really need a green page shadow ? > I'll let design team play and discuss with that, when they agree on a > default, I'll provide an additional patch to take it into account. Thanks for your patience Sebastien, I'd just recommend moving onto something else at speed ;-) > Note: I had to perform a make dev-install for settings to be correctly > saved. Ah yes - this is a mis-feature of linkoo - that we don't link the configuration data (possibly we cannot if it is processed in some way - but perhaps we can do better; cf. solenv/bin/linkoo). Anyhow - nice patches; but a pain to commit (lots of modules) can you go through the process here and mail me the bug # please ? then hopefully you can push your changes yourself: http://freedesktop.org/wiki/AccountRequests Thanks ! Michael. [1] - I'd still feel happier if we could have the bitmaps as member variables somewhere, rather than -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] easy hacks ...
Hi guys, Someone apart from Christophe (very kindly) sent me a link to their set of UI tweaks that they had put together, and I said I'd turn it into easy hacks. Somehow I lost that mail, and - occasionally hunt for it, but - it is no-where ;-) Can whomever it was re-send it to me ? Also, Sebastien may be able to help dig out some code pointers and add easy hacks for this stuff. Thanks ! Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] [REVIEWED] New mimetype icons - need patch review for -3-3
Hi Thorsten, On Thu, 2011-02-03 at 23:57 +0100, Thorsten Behrens wrote: > please find a set of patches to bring the new mimetype icons into > LibO-3-3 here: How much value there is in trying to review large binary diffs I don't know ;-) But the risk is really low here anyway - at worst we have a few inconsistent corner-cases for RC1. Please can you merge them to libreoffice-3-3 ? (I assume they are on master - right ?) > the scripts to convert, and distribute, are here: > http://users.freedesktop.org/~thorsten/icon-update.tgz We should get that and the source svg into git, obviously. It'd be ideal if we could do the dicing during the build process too (?) though not sure that is entirely feasible ;-) > I'd need a patch review before committing that to -3-3. Linux & Mac > builds work fine & look great, did not yet try win32. For win32, at least you nailed the sysui/ .ico files - which is what is needed I guess :-) Thanks ! Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice] Minor Design fixes - Little hacks to improve the User Interface
On Wed, 2011-01-26 at 00:01 -0800, Crazy H Studio - Mike Houben wrote: > the User Interface hase a lot of little problems, where some things > are not in place. This could be an button not aligned, 2px to far on > the right. Find things where the developer didn't do the programming > right. Little things that even a Beginner in Programming could > correct. Right; we need to add this sort of thing to the easy hacks page; so input on simple, high win UI changes we can queue up there is much appreciated. > Like this we can improve the User Interface without making something > new, but improving that what we have already :) Quite - and better than that, get a whole set of people interested in, and skilled at improving the UI. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: new features page ...
Hi guys, So - this thread turned amusing, before I could even get to it. Perhaps one of our problems is a workload, and hence response time mismatch between people. On Fri, 2011-01-14 at 22:55 +0100, Christoph Noack wrote: > great suggestion. It seems it pays off to bore you with all this UX > related stuff ;-))) So - first; smiley aside - when I read this I feel like my interest in, work on, and experience with UX in the past is being ignored. That is unfortunate, and I am sure not your intention, yet it happens :-) My impression is that UX is really important, too important to leave just to designers ;-) and that educating developers to understand and consider UX in what they do is critical. There are IMHO a vast class of UX problems that are so 'obvious' when considering some simple use-cases such that they can be tackled without external help. I see a vast amount of the UX role as winsomely educating developers, so that they can think for themselves - hopefully (as you say) that will happen over time. > Since I've looked at the screenshots on the front page, I'd like to say Separately, I love your praise for what David has done; and I too think it is a huge improvement :-) > I put up a small graphic to show how a structure might look like - would > be great if Ivan could have a look at that, too. I think a subtle border > (gray) would help to overcome screenshot snippets problems. > > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/O-PELAb4LD61S9RPTFIW8Q?feat=directlink Ok - it is a nice graphic. Unfortunately, not all our features are graphical in any way. "More familiar keybindings" eg. ;-) do you think your layout works well for that ? Also - who is going to provide this extra body text (in addition to the short description ?). > Don't be scared by the colors :-) of course not. > @ Michael: The OOo features page seems a bit messy, since the pictures > have different width - there is no harmony. Moreover, the whole page > looks like to win the "most headers" award ;-) Yes - totally agreed; I said I prefered it not because it was good, but because it is better - and that is saying something :-) > So here is my initial "flat list" proposal how the page can be > structured: > * All Applications --> Major improvements shared by all > applications > * Writer (Word Processor) > * Calc (Spreadsheet) > * Impress (Presentation) > * Draw (Vector Graphics) > * Base (Database) > * Math (Formula Editor) > * Internationalization > * Developer Features and Extensibility > * More Improvements Which sounds fine; at least I'm happy with it. > All but the last category should only present a few improvements to > avoid boring people to death ;-) Pre-prioritizing helps them to quickly > decide "yes, that's worth to download". Let's say 3 ... 5 items per > category like Writer. And, one highlight item (e.g. "More familiar > keyboard shortcuts") might sum up some individual features (by the way, > more familiar to whom ...). *but* here is the problem - we need someone to do this prioritisation work. Thus far, I did some fixing and better ordering of the categories, clearer explanation, and slightly better prioritisation of the data, but it needs more work. Furthermore, it is my conviction that the people doing the work should substantially make the decisions about it; the advice above could be seen as stretching into micro-management - deciding all the 'fun' stuff, and yet leaving all the donkey work to someone else :-) This is *really* not a good place to go. Reading the level of detailed demand here - personally I feel de-motivated to improve the web-site from where it is already :-) I also feel like there is more detail underneath, and that I am going to need to ask advice on any minor change I make myself - in short I feel like I've been demoted to a raw typing machine - if even that :-) I am sure that is not your intention either ! :-) indeed, it is a tragedy if giving good advice in too much volume, via de-motivation results in no improvement at all. So - the points you make are all good - I agree with them; but are perhaps over-detailed; personally I would prefer to see some far less detailed suggestions, presenting the same data - but in a much more free-form way leaving the person doing the work lots of room to do as they choose. Hopefully - that means even less work for you to do on this topic :-) I imagine that carefully writing long and detailed E-mails takes a lot of time; on the other hand - if you're passionate about detail in this piece - personally I'd prefer to see you do the textual re-arrangement yourself - ie. do the whole thing to get it exactly how you like. > Of course, there is a need to include that great new printing > dialog [2] - whoever helped to shape that. Oh - did we miss some key features ? [ that seems highly probable
[libreoffice-design] Re: new features page ...
Hi David, Ivan & co. So, first - I think it is worth saying that conflict is normal; -and- it is particularly normal in teams that are just changed / formed. A so-called "Forming / Storming / Norming / Performing" phase change :-) it would be nice to skip stage two, and three - and jump to stage four - but its not going to happen. So - what do we do ? in stage two we have to bear with each other, not burn bridges, communicate clearly (preferably not by E-mail - which is no way to resolve conflict), and there is some level of learning and teeth gritting by all required. By not burning bridges, I am concerned by this "my way or the highway" attitude that we all seem to have swallowed; this is not going to help I think - it just escalates the situation. Just FWIW, the SC itself went through this Storming phase itself only a month or so ago, and - well, I think we're well into a Norming / Performing phase now; so it is -absolutely-nothing- to do with egos, characters, especially 'hard to work with' people - it is just totally normal :-) Anyhow, with that under our belts: On Mon, 2011-01-17 at 21:39 +0800, David Nelson wrote: > First of all, let's not get mad at each other. ;-) I assume this is some sort of apology ? :-) if so, it could perhaps be lengthier[1] ;-) > David Nelson wrote: > On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 Ivan M. wrote: > > +1. There is another picture that looks like an image generated by > > some other piece of software thrown into Draw. Please correct me if > > I'm wrong, but this image suggests functionality (the creation of > > such graphics) that (as far as I am aware) is not actually present > > in Draw: > > http://www.libreoffice.org/assets/Shuffler/Screenshot-09.png Personally - I love that screenshot in particular; because it looks cool, and (in part) makes LibreOffice look rather good - as such, it seems like great marketing collateral. It is common to use rich artwork, and imported content to make things look richer than perhaps they are. eg. the 'draw' screenshots tend to show some CAD/CAM type image that (clearly!) was never drawn in the product; or some SVG straight out of inkscape (or whatever). Surely this is just normal marketing ? :-) Now - of course, that is my view, irrelevant as it is - hopefully it persuasive :-) but you guys are empowered, and need to sort this (minor) issue out together; preferably by friendly, rational discussion and bearing with each other. > This is not a design issue. This is content. if you disagree then > maybe we'd better take this back to the SC *again* to get things > clarified. But this is is not a good response I think; Who actually cares to split this semantic hair ? the SC I strongly suspect is not going to get involved in this kind of detail adjudicating whether a screenshot is content or not - simply because you can split hairs infinitely: is the theme graphical, and the text content ? what about the font ? what about the font size ? what about the zoom level ? what about the number of pixels in the screenshots ? what about ? ... by the time we get here - it is obvious that the problem is elsewhere :-) In my view, it is far better to reason as winsomely as possible about the issue. > Let's just push LibreOffice forward in a positive way. Let's be a good team. Agreed. > I want very much to talk voice to voice with you all. In my > collaboration with Ivan and Christian, i found that voice contact is > important in establishing good rapports. So I feel our discussions > will be better when we sit down and bash things out during a confcall. There is much wisdom in this. There is more wisdom, in not writing E-mail when angry; and if you must - then expressing your feelings (privately, not on-list) to the person in a neutral way - so you can work it out together. I don't think anyone gets involved in this great work to make people annoyed - but to try to get a good result. Anyhow - so, the rest I think is nonsense: lets not step back or threaten this; four people took this commitment on - please guys, can you get through the Storming phase as fast as possible & into the smooth, friendly fun phase ? :-) I'm sorry to prod the hornets nest - but ... All the best, Michael. [1] - learning to apologise for things you didn't think you did is a most wonderful and gratifying skill to acquire :-) -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
