Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Italo Vignoli]

I did not answer to your previous email, to avoid spending time on this
discussion, but as you have repeated your statement about my supposedly
"rude" reaction I think I have to explain what has happened in detail.

On 22/01/16 15:38, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:

> As for the rudeness of the feedback of real world users. If they passed
> that feedback to you like why didn't you or Italo *simply filtered and
> presented that feedback in a polite manner*?

If you consider my words as rude, you have never seen a real "rude"
reaction from myself. When I realized that what I considered a bug of
the 5.1 beta was instead a supposed improvement, I asked a number of
Italian users their opinion and they all confirmed my POV.

So, I wrote a personal email to Kendy to raise the issue, and avoid a
public discussion. After a couple of days, I escalated to the mailing
list as I did not get any answer (and we were already at RC1), to get
some feedback.

>>> As for Italo complaints, I find them very unfair since he was really
>>> aggressive and even issued threats when he just complained in a really
>>> late stage of the development process for 5.1.

Sorry, but I do not see the threat in my words. If a software becomes
unusable for a large number of users (Impress is not the most used LO
module, but is replacing PowerPoint for companies migrating from MS
Office to LibreOffice, and as such must be usable), I am worried.

The situation will improve with RC3, but the fact that users can access
slide masters with a single click of the mouse represents an issue for
all large implementations were users are not allowed to edit slide
masters (because they are part of the visual identity).

Microsoft Office and Apple Keynote are forcing users to make a specific
choice to access slide masters.

LibreOffice Impress was based on the same concept. We were training
users not to access that submenu to avoid issues, and to ask their tech
support for changes to slide masters.

With the new menu, basic users can access slide views and slide masters
with one click. If they choose slide master instead of slide view, and
make a change, they can damage the entire presentation.

If this happens (based on my experience, I can tell you that this will
happen quite frequently), users will call tech support (because they do
not understand where the issue come from) and this will increase the
cost of LibreOffice support.

We must be extremely careful about the overall cost of ownership of
LibreOffice, because Microsoft is trying to convince organizations that
migrating to LibreOffice will increase their costs.

Creating a potential increase of calls to tech support is something that
we should avoid. Maybe, this is something that the author of the change
to the Impress UI has not foreseen, because he was not aware of Impress
usage patterns inside large organizations.

>> Yes it was a bit aggressive, but that's the feedback of real users in
>> real-world usage...

If changes are not communicated (and the fact that they are discussed
during design hangouts means that they are not communicated, at least to
people in touch with users, who are not involved in design but are
impacted by changes to the UI), you cannot expect a nice and sweet
reaction by people who see their work affected by the changes.

If you think that these people should participate in design hangouts,
then you should place these hangouts outside working hours, manage the
hangout in their native language as they are not fluent in English, and
publicize the hangouts in a better way.

This is my last email on the subject of the Impress Mode Toolbar for
LibreOffice 5.1. After the launch of LibreOffice 5.1 I will be happy to
provide my feedback on the UI changes, and - for sue - I will do it way
before they are implemented.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Sophie Gautier]

Hi Laurent,

[ top posting by design ]
And then what is the piece you bring to the impress mode toolbar analysis?
Kind regards
Sophie
Le 22 janv. 2016 20:00, "Laurent Lyaudet"  a
écrit :

> Hi,
>
> I don't buy the argument "Go to the design hangouts if you have something
> to say or else shut up".
> This sounds like TyrannyOffice more than LibreOffice.
> No schedule for a world project can make it possible that all the people
> that want to participate can effectively participate in the design hangouts.
> Design mailing list is Libre, the design hangouts give all the powers to a
> smaller set of persons.
> It doesn't matter that they are benevolent and have a lot of good will.
> They must accept feedback from the mailing list and from users.
>
> I agree that complaints from users should be polite but we must accept the
> verdict when we fail to do something good.
> Nobody is perfect.
> I also know that feedback is unfair since people are much more motivated
> to give their feedback when they are unhappy.
> That's how the world works most of the time.
> Detaching yourself of the imperfections of the world is part of becoming
> adult
> (maybe "detaching yourself" is too strong, I tried to translate "prendre
> du recul".
>  It applies both to the people that gives the feedback and the people that
> recieves the feedback).
>
> Best regards,
>   Laurent
>
>
> Le 22/01/2016 15:38, Pedro Rosmaninho a écrit :
>
>> I recall seeing those discussions in the design Hangouts minutes. I
>> haven't
>> participated in them.
>>
>> <> discussion was started about migrating search in sidebar, and more
>> important, thinking about modifying the behavior of sidebar !
>>
>> AFAIK, there was no announcement, we have no idea of any schedule (time to
>> discuss, time to make proposals, time to evaluate them, expected time of
>> coding...)
>> How can people participate without a minimum of schedule ?>>
>>
>> Ok, I'll let in on a little known thing: the *Hangouts have a defined
>> schedule*
>> And actually here's the thing:
>>
>> 1. people make proposals in the Hangout meetings,
>> 2. people discuss proposals in the Hangout meetings
>> 3. They evaluate proposals in the Hangout meetings!!!.
>>
>> It's not like people are meeting in a dark basement plotting on ways to do
>> UI work without informing the users.* If you want to make proposals,
>> discuss proposal, evaluate them and participate in the development then
>> SHOW UP IN THE DESIGN HANGOUTS MEETINGS!!!* I accompany this mailing list
>> for years and since UI development picked up pace in the last year and a
>> half the devs were tireless in trying to atract new people.
>>
>> As for that Sidebar proposal they started discussing that in that Hangout
>> meeting and it will evolve along time. The discussion about what to do
>> with
>> the Sidebar has been ongoing since it was introduced in LO. If you don't
>> know that what the hell do you want?
>> To fill the design process with so much red tape and impediments that the
>> UI is basically frozen for all eternity just because you didn't like one
>> change that was done?
>> About a feature that is going to be re-evaluated because some lazy people
>> decided to shout loud about it after the code freeze instead of providing
>> feedback early enough in the multitude of opportunities they had???
>>
>> As for the rudeness of the feedback of real world users. If they passed
>> that feedback to you like why didn't you or Italo *simply filtered and
>> presented that feedback in a polite manner*?
>> Do you also feel the need to be rude to people that are working their
>> asses
>> off just because someone vented their frustration to you in a non-polite
>> manner?
>>
>> If you dislike the work done in they UI then show up in the design
>> Hangouts
>> and start proposing differnt things, collaborate with who does the work,
>> try to influence their views positively and maybe submit your code or
>> alternatives. Shouting at them for doing their work is not the way.
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Michel RENON 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Le 15/01/2016 19:28, Pedro Rosmaninho a écrit :
>>>
>>> Michel, you can't complain that people are using links not posted in a
 tdf/libreoffice website and then talk about feedback in a blog of
 someone else. Why didn't that person provide feedback to the design
 mailing list for example?

 It's not the work of the people that work in UI/UX for LibreOffice to
 dig through the Internet looking for feedback in obscure blogs.

 But that's currently the state of design documents : they are all stored
>>> in personal gdocs, gdrive, blogs...
>>>
>>> That's why I asked to upload all design documents in the official tdf
>>> wiki
>>> : it's the central and official place to find anything related to
>>> LibreOffice. And it oblige the uploader to choose a license.
>>>
>>> It brings 2 other questions about surveys 

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Laurent Lyaudet]

Hi,

I don't buy the argument "Go to the design hangouts if you have 
something to say or else shut up".

This sounds like TyrannyOffice more than LibreOffice.
No schedule for a world project can make it possible that all the people 
that want to participate can effectively participate in the design hangouts.
Design mailing list is Libre, the design hangouts give all the powers to 
a smaller set of persons.

It doesn't matter that they are benevolent and have a lot of good will.
They must accept feedback from the mailing list and from users.

I agree that complaints from users should be polite but we must accept 
the verdict when we fail to do something good.

Nobody is perfect.
I also know that feedback is unfair since people are much more motivated 
to give their feedback when they are unhappy.

That's how the world works most of the time.
Detaching yourself of the imperfections of the world is part of becoming 
adult
(maybe "detaching yourself" is too strong, I tried to translate "prendre 
du recul".
 It applies both to the people that gives the feedback and the people 
that recieves the feedback).


Best regards,
  Laurent


Le 22/01/2016 15:38, Pedro Rosmaninho a écrit :

I recall seeing those discussions in the design Hangouts minutes. I haven't
participated in them.

<>

Ok, I'll let in on a little known thing: the *Hangouts have a defined
schedule*
And actually here's the thing:

1. people make proposals in the Hangout meetings,
2. people discuss proposals in the Hangout meetings
3. They evaluate proposals in the Hangout meetings!!!.

It's not like people are meeting in a dark basement plotting on ways to do
UI work without informing the users.* If you want to make proposals,
discuss proposal, evaluate them and participate in the development then
SHOW UP IN THE DESIGN HANGOUTS MEETINGS!!!* I accompany this mailing list
for years and since UI development picked up pace in the last year and a
half the devs were tireless in trying to atract new people.

As for that Sidebar proposal they started discussing that in that Hangout
meeting and it will evolve along time. The discussion about what to do with
the Sidebar has been ongoing since it was introduced in LO. If you don't
know that what the hell do you want?
To fill the design process with so much red tape and impediments that the
UI is basically frozen for all eternity just because you didn't like one
change that was done?
About a feature that is going to be re-evaluated because some lazy people
decided to shout loud about it after the code freeze instead of providing
feedback early enough in the multitude of opportunities they had???

As for the rudeness of the feedback of real world users. If they passed
that feedback to you like why didn't you or Italo *simply filtered and
presented that feedback in a polite manner*?
Do you also feel the need to be rude to people that are working their asses
off just because someone vented their frustration to you in a non-polite
manner?

If you dislike the work done in they UI then show up in the design Hangouts
and start proposing differnt things, collaborate with who does the work,
try to influence their views positively and maybe submit your code or
alternatives. Shouting at them for doing their work is not the way.

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Michel RENON 
wrote:


Hi,

Le 15/01/2016 19:28, Pedro Rosmaninho a écrit :


Michel, you can't complain that people are using links not posted in a
tdf/libreoffice website and then talk about feedback in a blog of
someone else. Why didn't that person provide feedback to the design
mailing list for example?

It's not the work of the people that work in UI/UX for LibreOffice to
dig through the Internet looking for feedback in obscure blogs.


But that's currently the state of design documents : they are all stored
in personal gdocs, gdrive, blogs...

That's why I asked to upload all design documents in the official tdf wiki
: it's the central and official place to find anything related to
LibreOffice. And it oblige the uploader to choose a license.

It brings 2 other questions about surveys and gdocs :

- Where are stored the surveys datas ? Who own those datas ?



- What are the license of those datas ? of those documents ?

As it is related to a FOSS project, it is very important to be clear about
license and ownership of everything used to create LibreOffice.
Developers are very precise about anything related to license, and I don't
understand why developers working in/with the design team don't ask that
essential question.





As for

the tools that they prefer to use, I don't see why they should be forced
to eat their own dogfood.
Should they try to incorporate LO as much as possible in their workflow?
Obviously! But if it's detrimental to their productivity then it's
better not to untill it suits them (they then can file bugs and offer
feedback on waht needs to be changed).
No company in the world does that if 

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Michel RENON]

Hi,

Le 15/01/2016 19:28, Pedro Rosmaninho a écrit :

Michel, you can't complain that people are using links not posted in a
tdf/libreoffice website and then talk about feedback in a blog of
someone else. Why didn't that person provide feedback to the design
mailing list for example?

It's not the work of the people that work in UI/UX for LibreOffice to
dig through the Internet looking for feedback in obscure blogs.
But that's currently the state of design documents : they are all stored 
in personal gdocs, gdrive, blogs...


That's why I asked to upload all design documents in the official tdf 
wiki : it's the central and official place to find anything related to 
LibreOffice. And it oblige the uploader to choose a license.


It brings 2 other questions about surveys and gdocs :

- Where are stored the surveys datas ? Who own those datas ?



- What are the license of those datas ? of those documents ?

As it is related to a FOSS project, it is very important to be clear 
about license and ownership of everything used to create LibreOffice.
Developers are very precise about anything related to license, and I 
don't understand why developers working in/with the design team don't 
ask that essential question.







As for
the tools that they prefer to use, I don't see why they should be forced
to eat their own dogfood.
Should they try to incorporate LO as much as possible in their workflow?
Obviously! But if it's detrimental to their productivity then it's
better not to untill it suits them (they then can file bugs and offer
feedback on waht needs to be changed).
No company in the world does that if there's better alternatives out there.
Heck, do you think development of software in Google is done in ChromeOS
or Android? Or that they don't use Windows/MacOS/Linux distros?



Please, don't suppose I'm so dumb...
I write software for 25 years


"eat their own dogfood" has 3 points :

- marketing : enhance confidence in the product
tell people outside the FOSS circle that LibreOffice is really usable 
and versatile


- ethical : TDF fights for open formats, open source software, it is 
logical to use tools that respect those values


- technical : if we are our first users, we'll be the first to ask for 
corrections/enhancements. The more we are uncompromising, the better 
LibreOffice will be.




People in charge of the UI/UX take into account as much feedback as they
can and that is quite transparent. Just go check the Hangouts minutes.
If lately the UI/UX hasn't been stable maybe it's because it had been
"stable" (more like fossilized) for far too long. There were even loads
of features that weren't exposed in the UI! I think it's more than
certain that as the UI/UX becomes updated that it will be more stated.
But in a piece of software with scheduled releases instead of a "launch
when it's ready" model people will inevitably see changes across the
different releases. As they do for the features that are introduced in
each version.

As for Italo complaints, I find them very unfair since he was really
aggressive and even issued threats when he just complained in a really
late stage of the development process for 5.1.


Yes it was a bit aggressive, but that's the feedback of real users in 
real-world usage...





Where was his feedback
when this was discussed? Why didn't he provide his feedback earlier?


very good question !

Can you send links of design minutes where that subject was announced 
and discussed ?

I searched in my thunderbird and found nothing
(it may be a search error in my thunderbird)


Another example, I just read in the last design minute [1] that a 
discussion was started about migrating search in sidebar, and 
more important, thinking about modifying the behavior of sidebar !


AFAIK, there was no announcement, we have no idea of any schedule (time 
to discuss, time to make proposals, time to evaluate them, expected time 
of coding...)

How can people participate without a minimum of schedule ?



 If
he wants to have a bigger participation in the development then maybe he
should participate in the process earlier and not start shouting when
there's already a hard freeze when he could've said something before.

I think there's an issue of people not knowing how to properly leave
their feedback.



yes, the most important way to give feedback is to participate in hangouts.

As most of us are volunteers, it's not easy to be available at the exact 
time and day of the corresponding subject.


If design team wants to have more people sending feedback, then it 
should announce earlier what it's working on, and then send some kind of 
RFC (request for comment) on different mailing lists (why not social 
networks to have a broader audience ?)



And as I've already said, design process should be done *very early*, 
and it should be completed *before* coding starts !




Michel


[1] http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg07585.html


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Heiko Tietze]

On Saturday, 16 January 2016 12:59:57 CET Arnaud Versini wrote:
> 2016-01-15 13:14 GMT+01:00 Heiko Tietze :
> > But for LibO, and any other open source
> > application, you cannot run the development based on usability tests.
> 
> Why not ? We don't have users ?
The user-centered development is an iterative process. You test everything 
with the target users and have to go into retreat for redesigning when its not 
perfect. But this model is not what we can do for our rolling release and for 
open source. Users are spread over the world and, as Stuart pointed out, we 
iterate by release. 

Of course we can do testing as you and Michel as well as Italo suggest. And we 
should. But we have to keep in mind that results are selective for a 
particular area, type of question, method, examiner etc. For instance, when 
Italo tells his students that something strange has happend to the Impress 
what may have an heavy impact  to the layout, and if they can find how to 
switch between display modes (sorry Italo, it's just an example and you likely 
did much better). The users might answer as expected - negatively. If you, 
however, let them perform a simple task like "enter a note for the current 
slide", and ask before execution how they expect this to be achieved and ask 
to compare this afterwards with the effective realization, the current 
solution might not look that bad anymore.

The difference is in the kind of methodology, first impression vs. usability 
test. And we should do both, yes. The results of the first impression would be 
just another piece in the puzzle, similar to what we have by looking through 
the social media. However, we can try to define tasks together with a clear 
storyboard of how and what should be asked during the test. This produces 
comparable results, but still of qualitative nature. 

Those tests should be taken seriously, it's nothing that can be done 'en 
passant'. Preparation, carrying out the test, and evaluation are really time 
consuming. You are very welcome to help with those tests. And Italo promised 
his help too.

Cheers,
Heiko
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Arnaud Versini]

Hello Heiko and Michel


2016-01-15 13:14 GMT+01:00 Heiko Tietze :

> On Friday, 15 January 2016 11:49:26 CET Michel RENON wrote:
> > Please note that I was talking about "use cases, prototypes, user
> > testing and iterate", not surveys.
> That's my daily business too. But for LibO, and any other open source
> application, you cannot run the development based on usability tests.


Why not ? We don't have users ?

Actually I see two ways for doing that :

   - Using LibreOffice workshop, and works with users. For example in my
   city, Toulouse, we have someone (Michel) with Writer/Calc workshop, are you
   saying that it will be useless ?
   - Second way is by using our users "big users" (French Gendarmerie,
   Nantes, Toulouse, Hambourg, Italy Army...), and ask them some time for
   working with them on LO ? Why not trying ? In France some big users plans
   to pay developers to improve LO, this is an opportunity for testing this
   method.

If I find users for doing that, Michel or Heiko do you want to try ?

Cheers

What we
> do is to analyze user replies on various sources when a release has been
> published (what Stuart describes). And we do also listen to people like
> Italo
> who asked several customers/students how to handle Impress (I believe a
> little
> bit more methodology wouldn't harm the results).
> And we do have use cases, for example [1], maybe not every time and esp.
> not
> when something is just redesigned with the restriction to keep all
> functions.
> But in this case we carefully list all functions and issues, e.g [2].
> Improvable? Yes, of course.
>
> > If I take time to define some use cases, will design team use them ?
> Sure. Rather call it scenarios when not related to a special task and add
> this
> to the HIG.
>
> [1] http://user-prompt.com/tracking-changes-with-libreoffice/
> [2]
> http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-design-session-entries-at-indexes-and-tables/
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Heiko Tietze]

On Friday, 15 January 2016 11:49:26 CET Michel RENON wrote:
> Please note that I was talking about "use cases, prototypes, user
> testing and iterate", not surveys.
That's my daily business too. But for LibO, and any other open source 
application, you cannot run the development based on usability tests. What we 
do is to analyze user replies on various sources when a release has been 
published (what Stuart describes). And we do also listen to people like Italo 
who asked several customers/students how to handle Impress (I believe a little 
bit more methodology wouldn't harm the results).
And we do have use cases, for example [1], maybe not every time and esp. not 
when something is just redesigned with the restriction to keep all functions. 
But in this case we carefully list all functions and issues, e.g [2]. 
Improvable? Yes, of course. 

> If I take time to define some use cases, will design team use them ?
Sure. Rather call it scenarios when not related to a special task and add this 
to the HIG.

[1] http://user-prompt.com/tracking-changes-with-libreoffice/
[2] 
http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-design-session-entries-at-indexes-and-tables/
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Michel RENON]

Le 14/01/2016 18:35, Heiko Tietze a écrit :

On Thursday, 14 January 2016 11:32:59 CET Michel RENON wrote:

You said very important things !
That's the core problem : currently, there is no user feedback.

The design team is very motivated to create good UI, but we (as I
participated in the design team) have the "ivory tower" syndrom :
we just talk between 3 to 10 people, mostly some people heavily
involved in LibreOffice or software development.
We never have the feedback from 'lambda/basic' users.
Designing a software is much much more than doing IRC or hangouts and
talking about one mockup. It should have "use cases, prototypes, user
testing and iterate". (it's not a rant against the design team, it's a
constructive critic or an enhancement request)
I talked about that (and much more already 3 years ago in my blog [1]

Few days ago, I started the idea of "eating our own dog food", that is
design team should use LO to create mockups, and more if possible.
It would be a first step in having user feedback : some internal
feedback, but design team should be in front of real usability problems
in LO.
As a regular user of LO, I'm often angry because of such details that
reduce/kill my productivity in my daily job.


That's not fair. We do user survey for years.


Please note that I was talking about "use cases, prototypes, user 
testing and iterate", not surveys.


While surveys can give some results, the real answer is doing user 
testing on prototypes.


It's based on my daily job : we have some requests from users and we 
have to translate that into technical answers.

With our experience, we know that users ask for wishes, hopes, dreams.
And then their feedback is different when they are in front of a 
prototype or real software.


An example : a customer asked for an EDM (Electronic Document 
Management) system. Obviously, he told us that they need complex 
functionalities (access rights, file sharing...). We just installed a 
prototype with Alfresco and basic configuration. After some weeks, the 
customer said that finally, it's too complex, they don't need an EDM.


Another : a customer asked me to modify a form : add a popup linked to a 
new SQL table and even sent me a mockup ! A friend analyzed the request 
and said "no", then talked with the customer to understand why he wanted 
that. Then we proposed something very different but that fits perfectly 
in their workflow to fill that form. So the customer approved the 
prototype and was happy.


And it's like that nearly every day !

And I try to apply that method to my own internal software :
when I develop it, I think that a new functionality will be ok.
Then, in real use, in hurry conditions, I get annoyed by some details 
I've never imagined while designing. And I have to modify it.




[...] Our work
is transparent, democratic, and user-centered. Of course not all ideas are
published, like the considerations about dogfooding - the posting was rejected


Sad news


since we do not have any developer imporoving Draw


You can see that my 2 last proposals where made with current Draw. [1][2]
It's not perfect, but I could create them easily.

For more precise mockups, I'll have to get more organized (prepare a 
widget gallery, respect original ratio), but nothing impossible.





[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/Impress51_group_buttons
[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/Impress51_master_panel


> and want to let sleeping

dog lie. Actually the same was true for the extended toolbar - this posting
and many more from the design team could be added here as well.
And to give this a compromise drive: I understand your posting as an appeal to
not reduce the effort in our work. I would be the last who objects. Surely we
can improve on many aspects. For instance in respect to the communication, as
Sophie said. On the other hand, our latest reports [23,24] had only a few
comments.


I already said during hangout that work on table styles was missing 
precise use cases. They allow to define precise questions, problems that 
the design proposals have to solve.

Currently, there are no precise questions, so how can designers solve them ?

If I take time to define some use cases, will design team use them ?

Cheers,

Michel

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Michel RENON]

Le 15/01/2016 13:14, Heiko Tietze a écrit :

On Friday, 15 January 2016 11:49:26 CET Michel RENON wrote:

Please note that I was talking about "use cases, prototypes, user
testing and iterate", not surveys.

That's my daily business too. But for LibO, and any other open source
application, you cannot run the development based on usability tests.



Well, that blog post talks exactly about that, and even some usability 
tests on... LibreOffice !

http://opensource-usability.blogspot.fr/2016/01/usability-of-open-source-software.html

and another feedback on recent changes :
http://opensource-usability.blogspot.fr/2015/12/libreoffice-user-interface-changes.html







[...]


If I take time to define some use cases, will design team use them ?

Sure. Rather call it scenarios when not related to a special task and add this
to the HIG.


HIG are not related to use cases.
HIG are rules for developer : mostly "how-to layout widgets" and "what 
kind of behavior the user expects" to avoid asking again and again the 
same questions to design teams.
HIG may describe some design pattern when developers may face similar 
problem at different place.


Use cases are used only by designers to create metrics to compare 
different proposals.





[1] http://user-prompt.com/tracking-changes-with-libreoffice/
[2] 
http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-design-session-entries-at-indexes-and-tables/




Another subject :
in your 2 previous mails, nearly all links (27/29) provided are *not* 
based on a tdf/libreoffice website.

Is there any link from the tdf wiki to the links you provided ?

Can you understand my surprise ?
It means that all surveys and related work done about LibreOffice may be 
stored and managed outside tdf infrastructure.
It's related to my previous questions about storing design documents in 
the wiki instead of different personal accounts (gdoc  or anything else).




Cheers,

Michel

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Heiko Tietze]

On Friday, 15 January 2016 16:57:49 CET Michel RENON wrote:
> Well, that blog post talks exactly about that, and even some usability
> tests on... LibreOffice !
> http://opensource-usability.blogspot.fr/2016/01/usability-of-open-source-sof
> tware.html
> 
> and another feedback on recent changes :
> http://opensource-usability.blogspot.fr/2015/12/libreoffice-user-interface-c
> hanges.html
Nothing to say against this. Actually I'd appreciate when Jim Hall would 
upstream his work. So why don't you get in contact and invite him to the UX 
sessions? 

> Another subject :
> in your 2 previous mails, nearly all links (27/29) provided are *not*
> based on a tdf/libreoffice website.
> Is there any link from the tdf wiki to the links you provided ?
Published via Planet Libreoffice, no links on the TDF wiki for several reasons. 
(But we changed the host recently.) 

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Michel, you can't complain that people are using links not posted in a
tdf/libreoffice website and then talk about feedback in a blog of someone
else. Why didn't that person provide feedback to the design mailing list
for example?

It's not the work of the people that work in UI/UX for LibreOffice to dig
through the Internet looking for feedback in obscure blogs. As for the
tools that they prefer to use, I don't see why they should be forced to eat
their own dogfood.
Should they try to incorporate LO as much as possible in their workflow?
Obviously! But if it's detrimental to their productivity then it's better
not to untill it suits them (they then can file bugs and offer feedback on
waht needs to be changed).
No company in the world does that if there's better alternatives out there.
Heck, do you think development of software in Google is done in ChromeOS or
Android? Or that they don't use Windows/MacOS/Linux distros?

People in charge of the UI/UX take into account as much feedback as they
can and that is quite transparent. Just go check the Hangouts minutes.
If lately the UI/UX hasn't been stable maybe it's because it had been
"stable" (more like fossilized) for far too long. There were even loads of
features that weren't exposed in the UI! I think it's more than certain
that as the UI/UX becomes updated that it will be more stated. But in a
piece of software with scheduled releases instead of a "launch when it's
ready" model people will inevitably see changes across the different
releases. As they do for the features that are introduced in each version.

As for Italo complaints, I find them very unfair since he was really
aggressive and even issued threats when he just complained in a really late
stage of the development process for 5.1. Where was his feedback when this
was discussed? Why didn't he provide his feedback earlier? If he wants to
have a bigger participation in the development then maybe he should
participate in the process earlier and not start shouting when there's
already a hard freeze when he could've said something before.

I think there's an issue of people not knowing how to properly leave their
feedback.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Michel RENON 
wrote:

> Le 15/01/2016 13:14, Heiko Tietze a écrit :
>
>> On Friday, 15 January 2016 11:49:26 CET Michel RENON wrote:
>>
>>> Please note that I was talking about "use cases, prototypes, user
>>> testing and iterate", not surveys.
>>>
>> That's my daily business too. But for LibO, and any other open source
>> application, you cannot run the development based on usability tests.
>>
>
>
> Well, that blog post talks exactly about that, and even some usability
> tests on... LibreOffice !
>
> http://opensource-usability.blogspot.fr/2016/01/usability-of-open-source-software.html
>
> and another feedback on recent changes :
>
> http://opensource-usability.blogspot.fr/2015/12/libreoffice-user-interface-changes.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [...]
>>
>> If I take time to define some use cases, will design team use them ?
>>>
>> Sure. Rather call it scenarios when not related to a special task and add
>> this
>> to the HIG.
>>
>
> HIG are not related to use cases.
> HIG are rules for developer : mostly "how-to layout widgets" and "what
> kind of behavior the user expects" to avoid asking again and again the same
> questions to design teams.
> HIG may describe some design pattern when developers may face similar
> problem at different place.
>
> Use cases are used only by designers to create metrics to compare
> different proposals.
>
>
>
>> [1] http://user-prompt.com/tracking-changes-with-libreoffice/
>> [2]
>> http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-design-session-entries-at-indexes-and-tables/
>>
>>
>
> Another subject :
> in your 2 previous mails, nearly all links (27/29) provided are *not*
> based on a tdf/libreoffice website.
> Is there any link from the tdf wiki to the links you provided ?
>
> Can you understand my surprise ?
> It means that all surveys and related work done about LibreOffice may be
> stored and managed outside tdf infrastructure.
> It's related to my previous questions about storing design documents in
> the wiki instead of different personal accounts (gdoc  or anything else).
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michel
>
>
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[libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[V Stuart Foote]

Michel RENON-2 wrote
> ...
> [resent to the ml]
> Currently, some design changes are merged asap in master, just because 
> the code is ok.
> Then during alpha or beta, some user feedback is coming, but it's 
> already too late to make changes in code...
> 
> 
> Why not working on those changes in specific branches ?
> and take time to have user feedback and iterate.
> 
> And only when everything is ok (ui, code), it is merged in master with 
> the usual process

Maybe ask the remaining AOO folks how that development model is working for
them?

IMHO this would be a horrible regression from a developers perspective. It
would kill the project's timed release ethos, and stifle innovative code
development and ongoing refactoring of our long code tail.  It would be
detrimental to the long term health of the project and likely ultimately
kill it.

The truth is the success of LibreOffice has come in large part from exactly
the welcoming meritocracy in development that has emerged.  Few question it
is a better product than the alternatives, but it keeps its relevance
because of the development model and functional cross platform support.

Are there hicups--design, UI and UX--absolutely! That keeps it fun for the
developers.  

Would it be better if we had more hands--absolutely!  Simply put, in
addition to needing more developers and designers (of all flavors) the
project needs to attract more folks to QA and encourage the entire user
community to follow development and *test early and often* in the cycle. 
Sophi does a great job guiding folks with MozTrap test cases, but it hardly
gets touched (at just 4% for 5.1.0).

But, would quality of LibreOffice improve if we revert to a "release when
ready" model-- IMHO, not at all!



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Heiko Tietze]

On Thursday, 14 January 2016 11:32:59 CET Michel RENON wrote:
> You said very important things !
> That's the core problem : currently, there is no user feedback.
> 
> The design team is very motivated to create good UI, but we (as I
> participated in the design team) have the "ivory tower" syndrom :
> we just talk between 3 to 10 people, mostly some people heavily
> involved in LibreOffice or software development.
> We never have the feedback from 'lambda/basic' users.
> Designing a software is much much more than doing IRC or hangouts and
> talking about one mockup. It should have "use cases, prototypes, user
> testing and iterate". (it's not a rant against the design team, it's a
> constructive critic or an enhancement request)
> I talked about that (and much more already 3 years ago in my blog [1]
> 
> Few days ago, I started the idea of "eating our own dog food", that is
> design team should use LO to create mockups, and more if possible.
> It would be a first step in having user feedback : some internal
> feedback, but design team should be in front of real usability problems
> in LO.
> As a regular user of LO, I'm often angry because of such details that
> reduce/kill my productivity in my daily job.

That's not fair. We do user survey for years. For instance results from 5400 
participants about what motifs people have to use Libreoffice [1,2,3,4,5]. We 
run numerous tests on icon conspicuousness [7,8,9,10,11,12]. More recently we 
asked about how users want the toolbars to get configured [13,14,15]. 
Most considerations are done transparently, for instance about customization 
[16], change tracking [17], indexes and tables [18], CMIS [19], Special 
Characters [20], Shapes [21]. Charts [22], Tables Styles [23], Area Fill [24].
Our work is well-founded with the HIG [25,26,27] based on the aforementioned 
own surveys as well as data from the old AOO user tracking, reports on the 
web, talks to everyone over the world (nothing that Jay changed at the tolbar 
was done for no reason - a blog post about that is in preparation). Our work 
is transparent, democratic, and user-centered. Of course not all ideas are 
published, like the considerations about dogfooding - the posting was rejected 
since we do not have any developer imporoving Draw and want to let sleeping 
dog lie. Actually the same was true for the extended toolbar - this posting 
and many more from the design team could be added here as well.
And to give this a compromise drive: I understand your posting as an appeal to 
not reduce the effort in our work. I would be the last who objects. Surely we 
can improve on many aspects. For instance in respect to the communication, as 
Sophie said. On the other hand, our latest reports [23,24] had only a few 
comments. UX is nothing what comes out of the blue, and when we talk many days 
again and again about the same stuff it shows how delicate the topic is. Not 
every user wants to dive that deep into the mud.

[1] User Survey results #1 
http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-user-research-results-vol-1/
[2] User Survey results #2 
http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-user-research-results-vol-2-2/
[3] User Survey results #3 
http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-user-research-results-vol-3/
[4] User Survey results #4 
http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-user-research-results-vol-4/
[5] User Survey results Summary 
http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-user-research-summary/
[6] More is worse: About Detail in Icons 
http://user-prompt.com/more-is-worse-about-detail-in-icons/
[7] What is a pencil used for? http://user-prompt.com/what-is-a-pencil-used-for/
[8] Can a direction in time be displayed by spatial signs? 
http://user-prompt.com/can-a-direction-in-time-be-displayed-by-spatial-signs/
[9] Where does the Navigator lead you? 
http://user-prompt.com/where-does-the-navigator-lead-you/
[10] How abstract can an icon be? About Copy & Paste in LibreOffice 
http://user-prompt.com/how-abstract-can-an-icon-be-about-copy-paste-in-libreoffice/
[11] Semiotics in Usability: Guidelines for the Development of Icon Metaphors 
http://user-prompt.com/semiotics-in-usability-guidelines-for-the-development-of-icon-metaphors/
[12] Quick wins: Conclusions of the Libreoffice icon test 
http://user-prompt.com/conclusions-of-the-libreoffice-icon-test/
[13] Standard toolbar in Libreoffice 
http://user-prompt.com/standard-toolbar-in-libreoffice/
[14] Results of survey about Libreoffice Calc?s toolbar configuration http://
user-prompt.com/results-of-survey-about-libreoffice-calcs-toolbar-configuration/
15] How people utilize Libreoffice Impress 
http://user-prompt.com/how-people-utilize-libreoffice-impress/
[16] How to make Libreoffice Customization usable 
http://user-prompt.com/how-to-make-libreoffice-customization-usable/
[17] Tracking changes with Libreoffice 
http://user-prompt.com/tracking-changes-with-libreoffice/
[18] Libreoffice Design Session: Entries at Indexes and Tables 

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Cor Nouws]

V Stuart Foote wrote on 13-01-16 21:39:

> None the less, the developer who implemented the code got to decide based on
> input in IRC, design meetings, gerrit feedback, and related issues filed in
> BZ (see  tdf#87672
>    for example). 

It's not fully clear to me how the discussion in that issue found it's
way in the current implementation, but .. ;)

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Italo Vignoli]

On 14/01/16 10:59, Sophie wrote:

> When working on a slide desk last week, I didn't found it difficult to
> switch in the View menu, what annoy me is that the choice is not retained.

I cannot consider myself as a normal user, so the fact that I am able to
switch without issues (once I have found how to switch) does not mean
that basic users will be able to do the same.

I am working as an Impress trainer for migrations in Italy, so I know
rather well basic Impress users, and I know the disasters basic users
can generate without even realizing that they are doing it wrong.

I am especially worried by basic users. Impress is not the best piece of
software around for the habits of basic users switching from MS
PowerPoint, and making it worse is not the right solution.

> Would it be possible to discuss this during the next meeting?

I am happy to be in the meeting, and to contribute to a solution to
improve Impress UI.

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AW: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Samuel Mehrbrodt]

May I suggest that we show the Tab bar by default in for now and think about 
further improvements in the next releases?
I know the Tab bar is not ideal, but neither is the mode selector drop down.

I understand Italo that a quick switch between normal and slide sorter mode is 
necessary for power users.
This is provided by the Tab bar.

When/if we have buttons to switch between these two modes elsewhere (maybe the 
statusbar), we can hide the tab bar again.

If you are ok with that, I'll prepare a patch to show the tab bar by default.

Thanks
Samuel


Von: Italo Vignoli <it...@libreoffice.org>
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 14. Januar 2016 10:11
An: design@global.libreoffice.org
Betreff: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

On 13/01/16 21:39, V Stuart Foote wrote:

>>From your apparent shock that something changed, should we assume that you
> had not taken a recent build of master nor one of the 5.1.0 beta releases
> out for a test? And only now got around to seeing what is new?

Don't be silly, please. I have 5 computers, so I have LibreOffice 5.1
installed on 3 machines since Beta 1, and I have just installed RC2, but
on the computer I use for production I still have LibreOffice 5.0
because Impress is unusable because of this completely idiot decision
(again, not shared at all with Impress users, but based only on ideas of
a few people who do not use Impress as a professional tool).

Anyway, if the decision is to keep the insanity as it is, and to turn
down complaints as rants - twice, just unbelievable - I will fight it
with all my force and in every available channel.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Michel RENON]

Le 13/01/2016 14:35, V Stuart Foote a écrit :

[...]

When refactored it was provided with a simple View menu toggle "Modes Tab
Bar" so "power users", or the intransigent, can enable or disable it as
desired--but no longer consuming the vertical space by default.

Reasonable UI and UX--nothing is gone.




I discovered that change in the release note page (wiki) and found it 
interesting as it's something I've being thinking of 2,5 years ago :

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/LibreOfficeNewUX
Beside the vertical lost space, it was the "impossible button" problem 
that was really annoying.



Now that problem is starting to be fixed, I agree with Italo that it's 
incomplete : there is a problem of discoverability of the new 'Mode' 
button, it's lost in the toolbar.

So I just made a proposal based on current master version :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/Impress51_group_buttons

It also takes care of moving buttons about slides (add, modify...) into 
the side panel.



Cheers,

Michel


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Italo Vignoli]

On 14/01/16 10:20, Michel RENON wrote:

> Now that problem is starting to be fixed, I agree with Italo that it's
> incomplete : there is a problem of discoverability of the new 'Mode'
> button, it's lost in the toolbar.
> So I just made a proposal based on current master version :
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/Impress51_group_buttons

> It also takes care of moving buttons about slides (add, modify...) into
> the side panel.

I like the solution (which has some rationale behind it).

Personally, I would move the "master" area behind a menu under the
"mode" area (as it is in Apple Keynote:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/116590/keynote.png) to force basic
users to make an additional step (to avoid the risk that they edit the
master instead of the slide, destroying the entire presentation: basic
users do things that humans can hardly believe, but they keep on doing
them even after they have been trained).

PowerPoint has master editing in a separate menu, as Impress until
version 5.1 (IMHO, a better solution, to keep basic users away from
slide masters, and avoid potential disasters).

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Michel RENON]

Le 14/01/2016 10:48, Italo Vignoli a écrit :

On 14/01/16 10:20, Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote:

> If you are ok with that, I'll prepare a patch to show the tab bar by
default.

Sorry, it's not "me" being OK with the solution, "users" should be OK
with the solution (and users have not been asked at all: the fact that
is all documented on GitHub or in other esotheric places that users do
not access - users are not developers - is a gigantic bullshit).


You said very important things !
That's the core problem : currently, there is no user feedback.

The design team is very motivated to create good UI, but we (as I
participated in the design team) have the "ivory tower" syndrom :
we just talk between 3 to 10 people, mostly some people heavily
involved in LibreOffice or software development.
We never have the feedback from 'lambda/basic' users.
Designing a software is much much more than doing IRC or hangouts and
talking about one mockup. It should have "use cases, prototypes, user 
testing and iterate". (it's not a rant against the design team, it's a 
constructive critic or an enhancement request)

I talked about that (and much more already 3 years ago in my blog [1]

Few days ago, I started the idea of "eating our own dog food", that is 
design team should use LO to create mockups, and more if possible.
It would be a first step in having user feedback : some internal 
feedback, but design team should be in front of real usability problems 
in LO.
As a regular user of LO, I'm often angry because of such details that 
reduce/kill my productivity in my daily job.




Michel


[1] http://mr-consultant.net/blog/category/libreoffice

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Italo Vignoli]

On 13/01/16 21:39, V Stuart Foote wrote:

>>From your apparent shock that something changed, should we assume that you
> had not taken a recent build of master nor one of the 5.1.0 beta releases
> out for a test? And only now got around to seeing what is new?

Don't be silly, please. I have 5 computers, so I have LibreOffice 5.1
installed on 3 machines since Beta 1, and I have just installed RC2, but
on the computer I use for production I still have LibreOffice 5.0
because Impress is unusable because of this completely idiot decision
(again, not shared at all with Impress users, but based only on ideas of
a few people who do not use Impress as a professional tool).

Anyway, if the decision is to keep the insanity as it is, and to turn
down complaints as rants - twice, just unbelievable - I will fight it
with all my force and in every available channel.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Sophie]

Le 14/01/2016 10:48, Italo Vignoli a écrit :
> On 14/01/16 10:20, Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote:
> 
>> If you are ok with that, I'll prepare a patch to show the tab bar by default.
> 
> Sorry, it's not "me" being OK with the solution, "users" should be OK
> with the solution (and users have not been asked at all: the fact that
> is all documented on GitHub or in other esotheric places that users do
> not access - users are not developers - is a gigantic bullshit).
> 
> Michael's solution is a nice one (of course, this is a gut feeling, as
> this is only a mockup), but I suppose it is too late to implement it for
> LibreOffice 5.1, and test it appropriately.
> 
> So, showing the Mode Tab Bar by default, showing the Mode Tab Bar Switch
> icon by default, and moving both icons in a better place in the toolbar
> (at the moment, it is not clear at all how to switch from on view to the
> other, and at first I thought that the bar had disappeared because of a
> regression) are probably feasible for LibreOffice 5.1.
> 
> Maybe, a better place is close to the Format Page/Slide & Slide Master
> icons, as the operations are rather similar. The actual position, in
> between Undo/Redo and Find & Replace, is just insane (and no one is able
> to find it: tested on over 30 people, all trainers).

I agree with you that moving the icon elsewhere in the toolbar is the
only possible thing for the moment, we are in hard code freeze period,
so no possibility to change more than this.
When working on a slide desk last week, I didn't found it difficult to
switch in the View menu, what annoy me is that the choice is not retained.
That said, there is again a communication issue concerning those
important changes. We should work to document those changes more
prominently than in the releases notes or git and have these
documentations ready for the alpha/beta stage so this can be
communicated via several channels before the hard code freeze.
Would it be possible to discuss this during the next meeting?
Cheers
Sophie

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Michel RENON]

Le 14/01/2016 10:59, Sophie a écrit :

Le 14/01/2016 10:48, Italo Vignoli a écrit :
> On 14/01/16 10:20, Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote:
>
>> If you are ok with that, I'll prepare a patch to show the tab bar by default.
>
> Sorry, it's not "me" being OK with the solution, "users" should be OK
> with the solution (and users have not been asked at all: the fact that
> is all documented on GitHub or in other esotheric places that users do
> not access - users are not developers - is a gigantic bullshit).
>
> Michael's solution is a nice one (of course, this is a gut feeling, as
> this is only a mockup), but I suppose it is too late to implement it for
> LibreOffice 5.1, and test it appropriately.
>
> So, showing the Mode Tab Bar by default, showing the Mode Tab Bar Switch
> icon by default, and moving both icons in a better place in the toolbar
> (at the moment, it is not clear at all how to switch from on view to the
> other, and at first I thought that the bar had disappeared because of a
> regression) are probably feasible for LibreOffice 5.1.
>
> Maybe, a better place is close to the Format Page/Slide & Slide Master
> icons, as the operations are rather similar. The actual position, in
> between Undo/Redo and Find & Replace, is just insane (and no one is able
> to find it: tested on over 30 people, all trainers).

I agree with you that moving the icon elsewhere in the toolbar is the
only possible thing for the moment, we are in hard code freeze period,
so no possibility to change more than this.
When working on a slide desk last week, I didn't found it difficult to
switch in the View menu, what annoy me is that the choice is not retained.
That said, there is again a communication issue concerning those
important changes. We should work to document those changes more
prominently than in the releases notes or git and have these
documentations ready for the alpha/beta stage so this can be
communicated via several channels before the hard code freeze.


[resent to the ml]

Currently, some design changes are merged asap in master, just because 
the code is ok.
Then during alpha or beta, some user feedback is coming, but it's 
already too late to make changes in code...



Why not working on those changes in specific branches ?
and take time to have user feedback and iterate.

And only when everything is ok (ui, code), it is merged in master with 
the usual process




Michel

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Italo Vignoli]

On 14/01/16 10:20, Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote:

> If you are ok with that, I'll prepare a patch to show the tab bar by default.

Sorry, it's not "me" being OK with the solution, "users" should be OK
with the solution (and users have not been asked at all: the fact that
is all documented on GitHub or in other esotheric places that users do
not access - users are not developers - is a gigantic bullshit).

Michael's solution is a nice one (of course, this is a gut feeling, as
this is only a mockup), but I suppose it is too late to implement it for
LibreOffice 5.1, and test it appropriately.

So, showing the Mode Tab Bar by default, showing the Mode Tab Bar Switch
icon by default, and moving both icons in a better place in the toolbar
(at the moment, it is not clear at all how to switch from on view to the
other, and at first I thought that the bar had disappeared because of a
regression) are probably feasible for LibreOffice 5.1.

Maybe, a better place is close to the Format Page/Slide & Slide Master
icons, as the operations are rather similar. The actual position, in
between Undo/Redo and Find & Replace, is just insane (and no one is able
to find it: tested on over 30 people, all trainers).

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Sophie]

Hi Italo, all
Le 14/01/2016 11:08, Italo Vignoli a écrit :
> On 14/01/16 10:59, Sophie wrote:
> 
>> When working on a slide desk last week, I didn't found it difficult to
>> switch in the View menu, what annoy me is that the choice is not retained.
> 
> I cannot consider myself as a normal user, so the fact that I am able to
> switch without issues (once I have found how to switch) does not mean
> that basic users will be able to do the same.
> 
> I am working as an Impress trainer for migrations in Italy, so I know
> rather well basic Impress users, and I know the disasters basic users
> can generate without even realizing that they are doing it wrong.
> 
> I am especially worried by basic users. Impress is not the best piece of
> software around for the habits of basic users switching from MS
> PowerPoint, and making it worse is not the right solution.

Well, you know I agree with you :) But I also trust the design team and
they are doing a not so easy and hard work, both in term of design and
in term of changing user habits.
> 
>> Would it be possible to discuss this during the next meeting?
> 
> I am happy to be in the meeting, and to contribute to a solution to
> improve Impress UI.

I was more thinking about a communication workflow discussion than the
usual UI moves. There is a lot of pressure on the design team that I
would like to help to appease and I think communication is part of that
pressure.

Cheers
Sophie

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Michel Renon]

Le 13/01/2016 14:35, V Stuart Foote a écrit :

[...]

When refactored it was provided with a simple View menu toggle "Modes Tab
Bar" so "power users", or the intransigent, can enable or disable it as
desired--but no longer consuming the vertical space by default.

Reasonable UI and UX--nothing is gone.




I just discovered that change in the release note page (wiki) and found 
it interesting as it's something I've being thinking of 2,5 years ago :

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/LibreOfficeNewUX
Beside the vertical lost space, it was the "impossible button" problem 
that was really annoying.



Now that problem is starting to be fixed, I agree with Italo that it's 
incomplete : there is a problem of discoverability of the new 'Mode' 
button, it's lost in the toolbar.

So I just made a proposal based on current master version :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/Impress51_group_buttons

It also takes care of moving buttons about slides (add, modify...) into 
the side panel.



Cheers,

Michel


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Heiko Tietze]

On Thursday, 14 January 2016 10:59:06 CET Sophie wrote:
> Would it be possible to discuss this during the next meeting?
Good idea. I tried to summarize the discussion in the minutes [1]. Looking 
forward tomorrow 1:00pm UTC (14:00 GMT).

[1] http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/design
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[libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[V Stuart Foote]

Takeshi Abe wrote
> ... about advantage of Modes Tab Bar.
> IMHO it is worth the cost of vertical space.
> Although the icon Display Mode is beautiful, changing the mode through
> Display Mode requires 3 mouse motions (a click, small move, and another
> click).

OK, and equally a reasonable action with the refactoring  would be to ensure
that the newly navigable uno: actions for the button widgets are at least
assigned accelerators in DrawImpressCommands.xcu.  Or probably better if
placed in Accelerators.xcu and assigned fixed Impress short-cut's (a MOD1 or
MOD2 key with mnemonic).

.uno:DiaMode
.uno:OutlineMode
.uno:NotesMode
.uno:HandoutMode

with a slightly more demanding short-cut for the Master controls (MOD1 +
MOD2 and mnemonic)

.uno:SlideMasterPage
.uno:NotesMasterPage

Doing that to establish reliable keyboard navigation between Impress view
modes, and eliminate dependence on GUI widgets would be reasonable
enhancement to the refactoring.

"serious Impress users" might even find it useful ;-)

Stuart
 



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Michel RENON]

Le 14/01/2016 15:26, V Stuart Foote a écrit :

Michel RENON-2 wrote

...
[resent to the ml]
Currently, some design changes are merged asap in master, just because
the code is ok.
Then during alpha or beta, some user feedback is coming, but it's
already too late to make changes in code...


Why not working on those changes in specific branches ?
and take time to have user feedback and iterate.

And only when everything is ok (ui, code), it is merged in master with
the usual process


Maybe ask the remaining AOO folks how that development model is working for
them?

IMHO this would be a horrible regression from a developers perspective. It
would kill the project's timed release ethos, and stifle innovative code
development and ongoing refactoring of our long code tail.  It would be
detrimental to the long term health of the project and likely ultimately
kill it.



Let me clarify :
I absolutely don't want to change the time based releases (every 6 months).

I just mean to merge design changes in master when they have been 
validated (by design team, by user testing).
So, if a design change is not complete for version N, it will be merged 
for version N+1 (+6 months). that's all.


Today, there is a strong process to validate code : developers work on 
some branches, until they reach good quality level, then they ask for 
merging in master : gerrit, automatic compilation, automatic tests, 
reviews by core devs ; and that's ok and absolutely necessary.


My wish is to have a similar process for design changes.

As it's not ok to merge alpha-quality code to master, it should not be 
ok to merge alpha-quality design in master.


That's what happened for the 'new template manager' for LO4.0 : it was a 
painful time because design was incomplete and incoherent.
And important feedback were made during beta, that created changes at 
the last minute : developers were in hurry. So users of LO4.0 had a 
alpha-quality design.

And some regressions that are still not corrected :
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60589

Same problems for new start center for LO4.2 : user feedback while beta, 
last-minutes changes. I proposed to postpone it to 4.3, to give enough 
time to designers and devs to correct it [1]. But it was too late : it 
was merged in master and already in string or feature freeze...



IMHO, it won't kill LO, it would enhance its perceived quality.
And it would reduce work of translation and documentation teams : they 
would have to handle less versions.




What is fun is that two time I said "postpone ONE functionality to next 
version (+6 months)", people understood "revert WHOLE LibreOffice to a 
release-when-ready". Is my written-english so bad ??



[1] http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg06280.html


The truth is the success of LibreOffice has come in large part from exactly
the welcoming meritocracy in development that has emerged.  Few question it
is a better product than the alternatives, but it keeps its relevance
because of the development model and functional cross platform support.

Are there hicups--design, UI and UX--absolutely! That keeps it fun for the
developers.



Sorry, I can't agree :
as a developer and designer, my focus is users.
And the only way for me to have fun is to have for every release :
- all problems solved / no regressions
- happy users

I hardly can't imagine why it is fun for developers to ship software to 
millions of users that have hiccups/problems to be solved in the next 
6-month-release...

Is it really the common way of thinking in FOSS ?



Michel


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[libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[V Stuart Foote]

Michel RENON-2 wrote
>> Are there hicups--design, UI and UX--absolutely! That keeps it fun for
>> the
>> developers.
>>
> 
> Sorry, I can't agree :
> as a developer and designer, my focus is users.
> And the only way for me to have fun is to have for every release :
> - all problems solved / no regressions
> - happy users
> 
> I hardly can't imagine why it is fun for developers to ship software to 
> millions of users that have hiccups/problems to be solved in the next 
> 6-month-release...
> Is it really the common way of thinking in FOSS ?

If we were just "releasing" every six months "when ready"--maybe it then
would be reasonable to hold back "feature" and design changes--and develop
(design, code, test)  new features in branches.  But suspect in that
scenario a whole lot of innovation would *never* see the light of day as it
would not be reviewed and the responsible dev would move on to other more
interesting things. Development in master forces a certain discipline and
consistency to the process--it is inherently all peer reviewed--and to the
extent that users participate, they see it then.

With our 6-month life cycle of a major releases, we actually "release" every
month, and have ample opportunity to repair regression or revert
inappropriate features that really do adversely impact usability of the
suite.  Sorry, but it does not have to be flawless--nor is it.

Given the numbers of volunteers actually contributing to the project in that
scenario it simply remains more efficient to develop into master.  There our
limited counts of Designers, QA and developers as well as motivated users
are freely able to review emerging features (or issues) and comment as
development proceeds.

The shortcoming is obtaining consistent and continual review by a broader
user community--that is a communications issue.  Most issues are cosmetic
like this suppression of the Impress Mode tab bar here, it would have been
trivial to have the "Modes Tab Bar" button set enabled on the Standard tool
bar if someone with an objection simply mentioned it to the dev rather than
waiting to 5.1.0.2--RC2 is ready to release.
 
Stuart



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[libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[V Stuart Foote]

Italo,

Feel any better after that rant?

Simple fact is the Impress View Mode was refactored and reworked here:
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=229fc164dc1773484b74eca016863cf68860e81b

with review in https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/16723/

It was discussed during several Design meetings and is in the minutes--basic
thought remains that positioned at the top of the Slide pane the Mode Tab
Bar consumed too much vertical space.

When refactored it was provided with a simple View menu toggle "Modes Tab
Bar" so "power users", or the intransigent, can enable or disable it as
desired--but no longer consuming the vertical space by default.

Reasonable UI and UX--nothing is gone.

Stuart





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[libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[V Stuart Foote]

Italo Vignoli-6 wrote
> On 13/01/16 14:35, V Stuart Foote wrote:
>> Feel any better after that rant?
> 
> Sorry, it was not a rant, because the situation - as it is - is
> unacceptable for serious Impress users, who have not been even asked
> before changing the UI of the application they use most. They are not
> subscribed to the design mailing list, and they should be asked before
> changing the UI.

Hmm, it all seems like a text book "rant"--rather petulant.  And I'm not
sure "serious Impress users" have any more weight than "serious Calc users"
or "serious Writer users".

None the less, the developer who implemented the code got to decide based on
input in IRC, design meetings, gerrit feedback, and related issues filed in
BZ (see  tdf#87672
   for example). 

In this case, available in master and  in time for the 5.1.0beta1, the
Impress Mode tab bar  was toggled inactive by default because we've added a
new "Display Mode" split button widget  and an optional "Mode Tab Bar"
button widget to the standard toolbar. There was simply no longer a need for
the Mode tab bar to be on by default. 

With the refactoring, we now had a way to turn it off, and did so--users are
welcome to turn it back on (from the View menu or by adding the toggle
button to their Standard toolbar) if they choose.

>From your apparent shock that something changed, should we assume that you
had not taken a recent build of master nor one of the 5.1.0 beta releases
out for a test? And only now got around to seeing what is new?

Stuart



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Italo Vignoli]

On 13/01/16 14:35, V Stuart Foote wrote:

> Feel any better after that rant?

Sorry, it was not a rant, because the situation - as it is - is
unacceptable for serious Impress users, who have not been even asked
before changing the UI of the application they use most. They are not
subscribed to the design mailing list, and they should be asked before
changing the UI.

So, I am not feeling any better until I see a solution to the issue
created by the changes in the Impress user interface.

> It was discussed during several Design meetings and is in the minutes--basic
> thought remains that positioned at the top of the Slide pane the Mode Tab
> Bar consumed too much vertical space.

This is not what Impress users think. Actually, they see it exactly in
the opposite way. The implemented solution is a significant step back
not only for me but for all the Impress users I have talked to.

> When refactored it was provided with a simple View menu toggle "Modes Tab
> Bar" so "power users", or the intransigent, can enable or disable it as
> desired--but no longer consuming the vertical space by default.

The toggle is hidden by default and this is just a stupid decision. In
addition, the menu bar icon is less practical than the Mode Tab Bar (two
clicks instead of one).

The Mode Tab Bar close to the work area was a competitive advantage over
PowerPoint and Keynote, as switching views was easier and quicker than
with PowerPoint and Keynote. Now Impress is behind PowerPoint and as bad
as Keynote (but is missing the keyboard shortcut).

Also, putting master views at the same level of slide views in another
bad idea, because users - who are making stupid things by definition -
will not understand what to choose to change view.

In addition, users inside enterprises are not allowed to work on
masters, so when we were training them we were simply telling them to
ignore the menu. With the actual solution, users will access masters
even if they should not, and this will create support issues (users
calling because they are lost in a master slide).

Coming back to you first comment: no, I do not feel any better, and I
will not feel better until the current situation will be addressed.
Impress is not ideal, but making it worse is not a solution.

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