[Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
Dear Design Team, I've been a user of Fedora 15 for two weeks now and I'm impressed. However I was very much missing any Fedora branding from Gnome shell. So I decided to look into creating Gnome shell extensions and I created a small extension that adds a Fedora logo to the Activities button. The advantage of this extension is that it will work together with any theme, always displaying the glorious Fedora logo. :) I also packaged it. I will submit the package for review tomorrow, but until then the source and the rpm can be found here: http://sources.venemo.net/ In order to use it, you will need to: 1. Get the RPM: - Install the fedora-logo-gnome-shell-extension-1.0.0-1.fc15.noarch.rpm package OR if you don't want to install a random rpm from a random guy on the internet, the source tarball is also there: - Get the tarball, and extract the contents to ~/.local/share/gnome-shell/extensions/fedoral...@fedoraproject.org/ 2. Reload the shell: press Alt+F2, type r and press enter I would appreciate any feedback about this idea. Eg. does the icon fit well in there, is this the right icon to use, etc. Thanks in advance! :) Regards, Timur Kristóf ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
That sounds like something we should consider to ship by default. I've also been thinking about the fact that the only place someone sees a Fedora logo on F15 is a few split-seconds when Plymouth is booted and that that isn't good at all for our branding. I like your approach! Fab 2011/4/11 Kristóf Timur > Dear Design Team, > > I've been a user of Fedora 15 for two weeks now and I'm impressed. However > I was very much missing any Fedora branding from Gnome shell. > So I decided to look into creating Gnome shell extensions and I created a > small extension that adds a Fedora logo to the Activities button. > The advantage of this extension is that it will work together with any > theme, always displaying the glorious Fedora logo. :) > > I also packaged it. I will submit the package for review tomorrow, but > until then the source and the rpm can be found here: > http://sources.venemo.net/ > In order to use it, you will need to: > 1. Get the RPM: > - Install the fedora-logo-gnome-shell-extension-1.0.0-1.fc15.noarch.rpm > package > OR if you don't want to install a random rpm from a random guy on the > internet, the source tarball is also there: > - Get the tarball, and extract the contents to > ~/.local/share/gnome-shell/extensions/fedoral...@fedoraproject.org/ > 2. Reload the shell: press Alt+F2, type r and press enter > > I would appreciate any feedback about this idea. Eg. does the icon fit well > in there, is this the right icon to use, etc. > > Thanks in advance! :) > > Regards, > Timur Kristóf > > ___ > design-team mailing list > design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team > ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
2011/4/12 Fabian A. Scherschel : > That sounds like something we should consider to ship by default. I've also > been thinking about the fact that the only place someone sees a Fedora logo > on F15 is a few split-seconds when Plymouth is booted and that that isn't > good at all for our branding. > > I like your approach! Another approach could be adding the logo to the default background. > > Fab > > > 2011/4/11 Kristóf Timur >> >> Dear Design Team, >> >> I've been a user of Fedora 15 for two weeks now and I'm impressed. However >> I was very much missing any Fedora branding from Gnome shell. >> So I decided to look into creating Gnome shell extensions and I created a >> small extension that adds a Fedora logo to the Activities button. >> The advantage of this extension is that it will work together with any >> theme, always displaying the glorious Fedora logo. :) >> >> I also packaged it. I will submit the package for review tomorrow, but >> until then the source and the rpm can be found here: >> http://sources.venemo.net/ >> In order to use it, you will need to: >> 1. Get the RPM: >> - Install the fedora-logo-gnome-shell-extension-1.0.0-1.fc15.noarch.rpm >> package >> OR if you don't want to install a random rpm from a random guy on the >> internet, the source tarball is also there: >> - Get the tarball, and extract the contents to >> ~/.local/share/gnome-shell/extensions/fedoral...@fedoraproject.org/ >> 2. Reload the shell: press Alt+F2, type r and press enter >> >> I would appreciate any feedback about this idea. Eg. does the icon fit >> well in there, is this the right icon to use, etc. >> >> Thanks in advance! :) >> >> Regards, >> Timur Kristóf >> >> ___ >> design-team mailing list >> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org >> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team > > > ___ > design-team mailing list > design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team > -- -Elad. ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 8:43 PM, Elad wrote: > g. > Another approach could be adding the logo to the default background. > Which we can't do unless we change the wallpaper guidelines Fab ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 09:43:10PM +0300, Elad wrote: > Another approach could be adding the logo to the default background. We don't do this so that remixes and the like can use our wallpaper as well without having to somehow get rid of the Fedora trademark. -- Ian Weller Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com pgp84NgjhLcBC.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
Hi, Thanks for the positive reacitons so far! :) I've sent the package for review, here is the link: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=696357 Responding to Fab's comment: > That sounds like something we should consider to ship by default. I was kind of hoping that someone would say that. :) > I've also been thinking about the fact that the only place someone > sees a Fedora logo on F15 is a few split-seconds when Plymouth is > booted a nd that that isn't good at all for our branding. This is 100% agreed. I have no idea why Fedora 15 misses any Fedora branding at the moment, but we definitely shouldn't let it be released this way. As it is now, F15 doesn't feel like being Fedora at all. (I'm not sure why the desktop team decided this way.) Cheers, Timur ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 12:26 AM, Ian Weller wrote: > On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 09:43:10PM +0300, Elad wrote: >> Another approach could be adding the logo to the default background. > > We don't do this so that remixes and the like can use our wallpaper as > well without having to somehow get rid of the Fedora trademark. > > -- > Ian Weller > Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com > > ___ > design-team mailing list > design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team > Well, we have a different background for GNOME and the other spins. Remixes could either use the lovelock background from the other spins, or the upstream gnome stripes background (that is really similar to the Fedora stripes background). -- -Elad. ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:34:15AM +0300, Elad wrote: > Well, we have a different background for GNOME and the other spins. > Remixes could either use the lovelock background from the other spins, > or the upstream gnome stripes background (that is really similar to > the Fedora stripes background). Regardless, it's been part of the wallpaper guidelines for years and many of us feel very strongly about it. It's not going to change any time soon. -- Ian Weller Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com pgpKctQD7U2bA.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 23:50 +0200, Timur Kristóf wrote: > Hi, > > Thanks for the positive reacitons so far! :) > > I've sent the package for review, here is the link: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=696357 > > Responding to Fab's comment: > > > That sounds like something we should consider to ship by default. > I was kind of hoping that someone would say that. :) Whether this package is included in Fedora is presumably only determined by whether it's free software, meets the Fedora logo usage guidelines and so forth. But I want to be very clear here (and sorry to have to introduce a negative reaction) that this cannot be part of the default Fedora install set. The Activities button is the central point of the GNOME UI. Putting a Fedora logo there: - Makes it unclear whether there is one click target or two - Separate the "Activities" word from the hot corner. - Creates a discrepancy between the GNOME documentation and instructional videos and the Fedora experience. If a Fedora logo appears to the Left of activities, many users will go to the corner and careful click on Activities instead of taking advantage of Fitt's law and discovering the hot corner. (Compare, on a Mac, the Apple menu is a separate click target from the File menu next to it. The start menu in old versions of Windows which was logo + text was styled to look like a single button so is not a valid point of comparison.) > > I've also been thinking about the fact that the only place someone > > sees a Fedora logo on F15 is a few split-seconds when Plymouth is > > booted a nd that that isn't good at all for our branding. > This is 100% agreed. > I have no idea why Fedora 15 misses any Fedora branding at the moment, > but we definitely shouldn't let it be released this way. As it is now, F15 > doesn't feel like being Fedora at all. > (I'm not sure why the desktop team decided this way.) I think the plan is to go back to having the Fedora logo on the GDM screen. - Owen ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
Hello Owen, Thank you for responding, you raise some very good points there. Let me answer to your arguments. > > Whether this package is included in Fedora is presumably only determined > by whether it's free software, meets the Fedora logo usage guidelines > and so forth. > Short answer: yes, it does. Overall I have to say, a logo must be part of the default install. Here are the reasons I think so: - Having a logo will strenghten the Fedora brand and makes clear that the user is using Fedora - If we don't have a logo, how can users visually distinguish between Fedora and other distributions? - Having a logo in a familiar place will ensure users coming from F14 that this is still the Fedora they love. Now let me answer your points about why you think it shouldn't be in the default install. > - Makes it unclear whether there is one click target or two - When the user hovers his mouse over the logo, the Activities caption will become higlighted. Thus, s/he can recognize that they are one click target. - When the user first clicks on either of them, s/he will see that the logo and the caption are underlined together, so s/he will recognize that there is only one click target. - Because the user sees that the two are in fact one click target, s/he will think of them as one single button, and not as two different items. - Having the logo there will bring back a familiar item from Gnome 2. - Noone ever thought that the Applications button and the icon are two different click targets in Gnome 2, thus noone will think they are now. On a side note, if you have a better idea on how to make it even more obvious that they are a single click target, I'm listening. :) > - Separate the "Activities" word from the hot corner. The "Activities" word will still be in the top left. And make no mistake there, the Activities word and the logo act as a single unit there. Note that since the logo is the only icon on the top which has colors, it will also improve the emphasis on the Activities button. > - Creates a discrepancy between the GNOME documentation and > instructional videos and the Fedora experience. Not that big of a discrepancy. Changing the Gnome logo to a Fedora logo in Gnome 2 also created a "discrepancy", but it didn't bother anyone. In my opinion, this should be a very important part of the Fedora branding. Since the word "Activities" is unchanged, every user will be 100% clear what the documentation is talking about when it comes to the Activities button and the overview. > If a Fedora logo appears to the Left of activities, many users will go > to the corner and careful click on Activities instead of taking > advantage of Fitt's law and discovering the hot corner. The logo becomes part of the Activities button (just like the logo is a part of the primary button in every desktop environment). Since it remains a single button and a single click target as I mentioned above, users will be able to discover the hot corner just as they were able to do so previously. (By the way, if I hadn't read the Gnome Shell guide, I would have never discovered the hot corner myself.) > (Compare, on a Mac, the Apple menu is a separate click target from the > File menu next to it. The start menu in old versions of Windows which > was logo + text was styled to look like a single button so is not a > valid point of comparison.) I have never used a Mac, but I don't think it is a valid point of comparison, since it uses the top panel for a very different purpose (applications' menu), while in Gnome, the top panel is rather a central piece of the UX which remains mostly unchanged regardless of what application I have open. Overall, I think that the logo is a central part of Fedora's branding. By dropping it, we also drop a large part of the Fedora public image and also make Fedora indistinguishable from other Gnome distributions. For this reason, this is something that should also be discussed with the Fedora marketing team. They should also have a say in this decision. (Because the removal of the Fedora logo will result in a weakening of the brand itself.) - Please install the extension and use the shell that way for a few days. See what it feels like. - If you disagree with how my idea tries to put the logo into Gnome Shell, then we should discuss other ways to do it. One idea of such another way may be to keep the logo there, but style it in such a way that it becomes more obvious that it is one with the Activities button. (I'm thinking of something like how the current application name/icon is represented on the top bar.) Another may be to put the logo to a different place and give it some functionality. I'm open to any ideas. :) - My main point here is that the logo should be in a central, always visible part of the screen. > I think the plan is to go back to having the Fedora logo on the GDM > screen. That is good news. :) Thanks. Cheers, Timur _
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
Hi, Owen! I don't think I need to point out that I don't agree with this. This further marginalises both the Design and Marketing team for what, a "hot corner"? So as it stands, we have our logo shortly when Plymouth is done booting, in the installer and on the GDM screen. And we are wondering why people think Ubuntu = Linux and Fedora never gets a foot in the door anywhere? I understand sticking to the design principles of Shell and Gnome 3 but I also think this needs to be discussed. Maybe we should CC Marketing on this, it seems to be more their realm anyway. IMO: I don't really care where the Fedora logo ends up (wallpaper or Shell), but it *needs* to be on the Desktop somewhere. Anything else seems silly to me if we really want to establish a brand and spread Fedora and its virtues even more. Maybe we should start including it in the wallpaper. I understand the guidelines but let's be realistic: Who re-uses our wallpapers anyway? I've never seen one anywhere but on a Fedora desktop. Fab On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Owen Taylor wrote: > On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 23:50 +0200, Timur Kristóf wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Thanks for the positive reacitons so far! :) > > > > I've sent the package for review, here is the link: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=696357 > > > > Responding to Fab's comment: > > > > > That sounds like something we should consider to ship by default. > > I was kind of hoping that someone would say that. :) > > Whether this package is included in Fedora is presumably only determined > by whether it's free software, meets the Fedora logo usage guidelines > and so forth. > > But I want to be very clear here (and sorry to have to introduce a > negative reaction) that this cannot be part of the default Fedora > install set. > > The Activities button is the central point of the GNOME UI. Putting a > Fedora logo there: > > - Makes it unclear whether there is one click target or two > - Separate the "Activities" word from the hot corner. > - Creates a discrepancy between the GNOME documentation and > instructional videos and the Fedora experience. > > If a Fedora logo appears to the Left of activities, many users will go > to the corner and careful click on Activities instead of taking > advantage of Fitt's law and discovering the hot corner. > > (Compare, on a Mac, the Apple menu is a separate click target from the > File menu next to it. The start menu in old versions of Windows which > was logo + text was styled to look like a single button so is not a > valid point of comparison.) > > > > I've also been thinking about the fact that the only place someone > > > sees a Fedora logo on F15 is a few split-seconds when Plymouth is > > > booted a nd that that isn't good at all for our branding. > > This is 100% agreed. > > I have no idea why Fedora 15 misses any Fedora branding at the moment, > > but we definitely shouldn't let it be released this way. As it is now, > F15 > > doesn't feel like being Fedora at all. > > (I'm not sure why the desktop team decided this way.) > > I think the plan is to go back to having the Fedora logo on the GDM > screen. > > - Owen > > > ___ > design-team mailing list > design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team > ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
15.04.2011, 19:58, "Fabian A. Scherschel" : > Hi, Owen! > > I don't think I need to point out that I don't agree with this. This further > marginalises both the Design and Marketing team for what, a "hot corner"? So > as it stands, we have our logo shortly when Plymouth is done booting, in the > installer and on the GDM screen. And we are wondering why people think Ubuntu > = Linux and Fedora never gets a foot in the door anywhere? I understand > sticking to the design principles of Shell and Gnome 3 but I also think this > needs to be discussed. Maybe we should CC Marketing on this, it seems to be > more their realm anyway. > > IMO: I don't really care where the Fedora logo ends up (wallpaper or Shell), > but it *needs* to be on the Desktop somewhere. Anything else seems silly to > me if we really want to establish a brand and spread Fedora and its virtues > even more. > > Maybe we should start including it in the wallpaper. I understand the > guidelines but let's be realistic: Who re-uses our wallpapers anyway? I've > never seen one anywhere but on a Fedora desktop. > > Fab > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Owen Taylor wrote: >> On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 23:50 +0200, Timur Kristóf wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Thanks for the positive reacitons so far! :) >>> >>> I've sent the package for review, here is the link: >>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=696357 >>> >>> Responding to Fab's comment: >>> > That sounds like something we should consider to ship by default. >>> I was kind of hoping that someone would say that. :) >> >> Whether this package is included in Fedora is presumably only determined >> by whether it's free software, meets the Fedora logo usage guidelines >> and so forth. >> >> But I want to be very clear here (and sorry to have to introduce a >> negative reaction) that this cannot be part of the default Fedora >> install set. >> >> The Activities button is the central point of the GNOME UI. Putting a >> Fedora logo there: >> >> - Makes it unclear whether there is one click target or two >> - Separate the "Activities" word from the hot corner. >> - Creates a discrepancy between the GNOME documentation and >> instructional videos and the Fedora experience. >> >> If a Fedora logo appears to the Left of activities, many users will go >> to the corner and careful click on Activities instead of taking >> advantage of Fitt's law and discovering the hot corner. >> >> (Compare, on a Mac, the Apple menu is a separate click target from the >> File menu next to it. The start menu in old versions of Windows which >> was logo + text was styled to look like a single button so is not a >> valid point of comparison.) >> >>> > I've also been thinking about the fact that the only place someone >>> > sees a Fedora logo on F15 is a few split-seconds when Plymouth is >>> > booted a nd that that isn't good at all for our branding. >>> This is 100% agreed. >>> I have no idea why Fedora 15 misses any Fedora branding at the moment, >>> but we definitely shouldn't let it be released this way. As it is now, F15 >>> doesn't feel like being Fedora at all. >>> (I'm not sure why the desktop team decided this way.) >> >> I think the plan is to go back to having the Fedora logo on the GDM >> screen. Let's be honest: the users of GNOME 2 are afraid of GNOME 3 shell. It's something new and awkward that needs to be discovered and requires getting rid of some habits while acquiring some new ones. Having the logo in the "panel" design would bring similarity and make it easier to feel accustomed soon. For the plugin. -- Best regards, Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Shnurapet shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, GPG: 00217306 ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
Hi guys, You're making some sense here. I'm not saying that my approach is the perfect one, I rather intended it as a start, because this is an important thing to discuss. The logo is a central piece of Fedora's brand and should not be taken lightly. The logo should be in a place where the user always sees it. Just like in any other desktop environment (and properitary operating systems also have a logo that's always visible). Here is how it looks now: http://i53.tinypic.com/33ndthv.png Here is a comparison showing desktop and overview: http://itmages.com/image/view/168138/2031fc59 If you guys think that it is not good this way, I'm open to suggestions. Here is a few thoughts I have about this. - Maybe we could place the Fedora logo in a fashion that brings it closer to the Activities caption - Maybe we could put the logo to a different place on the top panel and give it some functionality too although I would need a designer's opinion about these. Just a few thoughts on Fab's wallpaper idea: I usually see my wallpaper at two times: - When I log in - When I open a new workspace for less than half a minute each. So having a logo on the background would not make that much of an impression I think. Cheers, Timur On 04/15/2011 12:58 PM, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote: > Hi, Owen! > > I don't think I need to point out that I don't agree with this. This > further marginalises both the Design and Marketing team for what, a > "hot corner"? So as it stands, we have our logo shortly when Plymouth > is done booting, in the installer and on the GDM screen. And we are > wondering why people think Ubuntu = Linux and Fedora never gets a foot > in the door anywhere? I understand sticking to the design principles > of Shell and Gnome 3 but I also think this needs to be discussed. > Maybe we should CC Marketing on this, it seems to be more their realm > anyway. > > IMO: I don't really care where the Fedora logo ends up (wallpaper or > Shell), but it *needs* to be on the Desktop somewhere. Anything else > seems silly to me if we really want to establish a brand and spread > Fedora and its virtues even more. > > Maybe we should start including it in the wallpaper. I understand the > guidelines but let's be realistic: Who re-uses our wallpapers anyway? > I've never seen one anywhere but on a Fedora desktop. > > Fab ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
Hi, For the record, in Gnome 2 / Fedora 14, wasn't there a Fedora logo on the main menu? I say this because I had to add a menu to the panel after a fumbling session by an inexperienced user, which removed the menu entirely. When I replaced the menu it had a Gnome foot logo on it instead of the Fedora logo. If this is true and not my memory playing tricks on me, it might show a precedent for Fedora overriding some upstream imagery, placing branding in front of the user by default. I am slightly worried by the undercurrent that seems to suggest leaving upstream untouched... I get the impression there is a barrier to participation in open source that is slowly and surely being cranked higher (sorry that's a bit off topic here) -Cam ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
15.04.2011, 20:45, "Timur Kristóf" : > I'm not saying that my approach is the perfect one, I rather intended it > as a start, because this is an important thing to discuss. The logo is a > central piece of Fedora's brand and should not be taken lightly. I absolutely LOVE it. > The logo should be in a place where the user always sees it. Just like This is why it shall not be on the wallpaper but where it has always been. > - Maybe we could place the Fedora logo in a fashion that brings it > closer to the Activities caption Yes! -- Best regards, Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Shnurapet shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, GPG: 00217306 ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
Camilo, That's correct. A quick look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_%28operating_system%29 will tell you that Fedora (and before that, FC) has always used its own logo in there. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fedora_14_GNOME.png Cheers, Timur On 04/15/2011 01:58 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote: > Hi, > > For the record, in Gnome 2 / Fedora 14, wasn't there a Fedora logo on > the main menu? I say this because I had to add a menu to the panel > after a fumbling session by an inexperienced user, which removed the > menu entirely. When I replaced the menu it had a Gnome foot logo on it > instead of the Fedora logo. > > If this is true and not my memory playing tricks on me, it might show > a precedent for Fedora overriding some upstream imagery, placing > branding in front of the user by default. > > I am slightly worried by the undercurrent that seems to suggest > leaving upstream untouched... I get the impression there is a barrier > to participation in open source that is slowly and surely being > cranked higher (sorry that's a bit off topic here) > > -Cam > ___ > design-team mailing list > design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 11:29 +0200, Kristóf Timur wrote: > For this reason, this is something that should also be discussed with > the Fedora marketing team. They should also have a say in this decision. > (Because the removal of the Fedora logo will result in a weakening of > the brand itself.) I don't think you understood Owen, really. Replacing an existing 'branded' icon like the gnome foot in the gnome2 panel with a distribution-specific one is one thing, and it was a somewhat expected thing to do in gnome 2.x. Forcing a branded icon in a very prominent place where the original design doesn't want an icon is an entirely different thing to do, and is very much not the expected thing to do in gnome 3. So, I don't think there is any basis for a discussion here. There is no icon in the top left corner, and there won't be one on the desktop spin. If you want to install your extension on the design spin, thats your decision. It would still make us unhappy if you do, though. > > > I think the plan is to go back to having the Fedora logo on the GDM > > screen. > That is good news. :) Thanks. I've done the builds for that this morning. ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
I don't think you understood me, really. If you think the Activities button is not the right place for a Fedora logo, please give us some ideas about what is the right place for it, or in your opinion, how we could give the shell a Fedora branding. Cheers, Timur On 04/15/2011 03:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 11:29 +0200, Kristóf Timur wrote: > >> For this reason, this is something that should also be discussed with >> the Fedora marketing team. They should also have a say in this decision. >> (Because the removal of the Fedora logo will result in a weakening of >> the brand itself.) > I don't think you understood Owen, really. Replacing an existing > 'branded' icon like the gnome foot in the gnome2 panel with a > distribution-specific one is one thing, and it was a somewhat expected > thing to do in gnome 2.x. > > Forcing a branded icon in a very prominent place where the original > design doesn't want an icon is an entirely different thing to do, and is > very much not the expected thing to do in gnome 3. > > So, I don't think there is any basis for a discussion here. There is no > icon in the top left corner, and there won't be one on the desktop spin. > If you want to install your extension on the design spin, thats your > decision. It would still make us unhappy if you do, though. > >>> I think the plan is to go back to having the Fedora logo on the GDM >>> screen. >> That is good news. :) Thanks. > I've done the builds for that this morning. > > > ___ > design-team mailing list > design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 16:04 +0200, Kristóf Timur wrote: > I don't think you understood me, really. > > If you think the Activities button is not the right place for a Fedora > logo, please give us some ideas about what is the right place for it, or > in your opinion, how we could give the shell a Fedora branding. The shell does not need 'a Fedora branding'. ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
Every desktop environment that Fedora provides has Fedora branding. Could you please elaborate why the shell should be an exception? On 04/15/2011 04:05 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 16:04 +0200, Kristóf Timur wrote: >> I don't think you understood me, really. >> >> If you think the Activities button is not the right place for a Fedora >> logo, please give us some ideas about what is the right place for it, or >> in your opinion, how we could give the shell a Fedora branding. > The shell does not need 'a Fedora branding'. > > ___ > design-team mailing list > design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 16:10 +0200, Kristóf Timur wrote: > Every desktop environment that Fedora provides has Fedora branding. > Could you please elaborate why the shell should be an exception? The shell is not a desktop environment. GNOME 3 is. And we already compromised by allowing that to be branded via the background. There is no rule, either written down or implicit, that everything that puts a panel-like bar on the top of your monitor has to have a Fedora logo in the left corner. As I said, this kind of branding was somewhat expected with gnome 2, which was shipped with the expectation that distributions would pick a suitable theme (or let users pick their own), background, icons, etc, and would decide the number of panels, and on a suitable default arrangement of items on them (or again, let the users pick). GNOME 3 is very explicitly going away from that 'tool box' approach. We want to provide a recognizable experience, that is nice and polished by default, and does not need 'improvement' or 'branding' by each distribution. You can see that in many things: we removed the theme capplet, the shell does not support themes, etc etc. So yes, GNOME 3 is very different from GNOME 2 in that respect. ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
Okay, this is understandable. So how can a user distinguish between Fedora and any other Gnome distro, if there isn't a logo? On 04/15/2011 04:18 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 16:10 +0200, Kristóf Timur wrote: >> Every desktop environment that Fedora provides has Fedora branding. >> Could you please elaborate why the shell should be an exception? > The shell is not a desktop environment. GNOME 3 is. And we already > compromised by allowing that to be branded via the background. > > There is no rule, either written down or implicit, that everything that > puts a panel-like bar on the top of your monitor has to have a Fedora > logo in the left corner. > > As I said, this kind of branding was somewhat expected with gnome 2, > which was shipped with the expectation that distributions would pick a > suitable theme (or let users pick their own), background, icons, etc, > and would decide the number of panels, and on a suitable default > arrangement of items on them (or again, let the users pick). > > GNOME 3 is very explicitly going away from that 'tool box' approach. We > want to provide a recognizable experience, that is nice and polished by > default, and does not need 'improvement' or 'branding' by each > distribution. You can see that in many things: we removed the theme > capplet, the shell does not support themes, etc etc. > > So yes, GNOME 3 is very different from GNOME 2 in that respect. > > ___ > design-team mailing list > design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 04:22:03PM +0200, Kristóf Timur wrote: > Okay, this is understandable. > So how can a user distinguish between Fedora and any other Gnome distro, > if there isn't a logo? There's no requirement to re-brand upstream stuff. After all, we don't change the appearance or logos in Eclipse, GIMP, Inkscape, etc. I think it would be more useful to work on something like the start.fedoraproject.org site, and have that page be a better resource for building brand. (If you look at it currently, you'll find that it's improved, but still has a lot of room for improvement.) After all, this start page is part of the new browser tabs in Firefox that the vast majority of users will open. It has more room for meaningful content than a simple logo on a menu. Putting worthwhile, substantial material where people will see it is more effective for building our brand than trying to force an old idiom into a design that doesn't need it. -- Paul W. Frieldshttp://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ Red Hat Summit/JBossWorld -- Register now! http://.theredhatsummit.com ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 04:22:03PM +0200, Kristóf Timur wrote: >> Okay, this is understandable. >> So how can a user distinguish between Fedora and any other Gnome distro, >> if there isn't a logo? > > There's no requirement to re-brand upstream stuff. After all, we > don't change the appearance or logos in Eclipse, GIMP, Inkscape, etc. > > I think it would be more useful to work on something like the > start.fedoraproject.org site, and have that page be a better resource > for building brand. (If you look at it currently, you'll find that > it's improved, but still has a lot of room for improvement.) > > After all, this start page is part of the new browser tabs in Firefox > that the vast majority of users will open. It has more room for > meaningful content than a simple logo on a menu. Putting worthwhile, > substantial material where people will see it is more effective for > building our brand than trying to force an old idiom into a design > that doesn't need it. > > -- > Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > Red Hat Summit/JBossWorld -- Register now! http://.theredhatsummit.com > ___ > design-team mailing list > design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team > I agree with Paul about start.fpo, we also have a wiki page for this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Start.fpo_redesign (feel free to add your thoughts) And we talked about it in the last websites team meeting as well: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-websites/2011-03-30/fedora-websites.2011-03-30-15.00.html -- -Elad. ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
> There's no requirement to re-brand upstream stuff. After all, we > don't change the appearance or logos in Eclipse, GIMP, Inkscape, etc. > In this case, why do we rebrand KDE, Xfce, and all other desktop environments that are included in Fedora? > I think it would be more useful to work on something like the > start.fedoraproject.org site, and have that page be a better resource > for building brand. (If you look at it currently, you'll find that > it's improved, but still has a lot of room for improvement.) > That is a completely unrelated issue. But I agree, that site could use some improvements. > After all, this start page is part of the new browser tabs in Firefox > that the vast majority of users will open. It has more room for > meaningful content than a simple logo on a menu. Putting worthwhile, > substantial material where people will see it is more effective for > building our brand than trying to force an old idiom into a design > that doesn't need it. You didn't really answer my question. If we don't have any branding on Fedora's default installation, how will users be able to distinguish between Fedora and any other Gnome distribution? Changing a start page in Firefox doesn't really cut it. I'll give you an example. Back then when I was about to decide which distribution to use, Ubuntu and Fedora looked largely the same, they only differed from each other in a few colors and a logo. Having no expertise with Linux at all, I liked Fedora's artwork better, so I decided to choose Fedora. (And I haven't regret it.) However, by giving up all Fedora identity from our default desktop, users will see no difference from other distros either. And this is a mistake. By giving up its identity, not only will Fedora look the same as any other distro that happens to package Gnome 3, but none of their users will feel like trying it either, becuse to them, looks are the deciding factor. Cheers, Timur ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 05:18:20PM +0200, Timur Kristóf wrote: > > > There's no requirement to re-brand upstream stuff. After all, we > > don't change the appearance or logos in Eclipse, GIMP, Inkscape, etc. > > > In this case, why do we rebrand KDE, Xfce, and all other desktop > environments that are included in Fedora? I said it wasn't a requirement. If the design of these environments has a place for it, I don't see a problem with doing so. > > I think it would be more useful to work on something like the > > start.fedoraproject.org site, and have that page be a better resource > > for building brand. (If you look at it currently, you'll find that > > it's improved, but still has a lot of room for improvement.) > > > That is a completely unrelated issue. But I agree, that site could use > some improvements. It's not unrelated at all, if the point of this exercise is to build brand, as opposed to "make GNOME 3 look like GNOME 2." > > After all, this start page is part of the new browser tabs in Firefox > > that the vast majority of users will open. It has more room for > > meaningful content than a simple logo on a menu. Putting worthwhile, > > substantial material where people will see it is more effective for > > building our brand than trying to force an old idiom into a design > > that doesn't need it. > You didn't really answer my question. > If we don't have any branding on Fedora's default installation, how will > users be able to distinguish between Fedora and any other Gnome > distribution? Changing a start page in Firefox doesn't really cut it. This did answer the question. Almost every user will presumably open the web browser, and that will allow them to distinguish what they're using. An omnipresent logo is not the one and only way one can make distinguishments. In fact, in the larger sense, Fedora has distinguished itself over the years by presenting the best upstream work while trying to avoid imposing hacks on it. > I'll give you an example. Back then when I was about to decide which > distribution to use, Ubuntu and Fedora looked largely the same, they > only differed from each other in a few colors and a logo. I think we can safely say this is no longer the case, though, so this example may not be the best one. > Having no expertise with Linux at all, I liked Fedora's artwork better, > so I decided to choose Fedora. (And I haven't regret it.) However, by > giving up all Fedora identity from our default desktop, users will see > no difference from other distros either. And this is a mistake. The arrangement was made to do this for GNOME 3 in Fedora 15 through a number of conversations between the Desktop and Design teams. Perhaps Fedora 16 will have a different background wallpaper, because this decision was made purely regarding Fedora 15. There aren't really any ways to tell whether doing this is or isn't a mistake. It's something happening especially for this release, and next release the approach may be different. > By giving up its identity, not only will Fedora look the same as any > other distro that happens to package Gnome 3, but none of their users > will feel like trying it either, becuse to them, looks are the deciding > factor. Again, there's no proof this is the case. There have been enough stories about GNOME 3 and Fedora in the press already that I believe we're going to end up attracting a lot of people who are interested in seeing this new desktop environment. Which one of us is right? There's no way to tell, and I accept that. But I'd rather see Fedora sporting (and supporting) the latest innovative approach and not trying to hack it into an old idiom. -- Paul W. Frieldshttp://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ Red Hat Summit/JBossWorld -- Register now! http://.theredhatsummit.com ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
Timur Kristóf (ti...@sch.bme.hu) said: > If we don't have any branding on Fedora's default installation, how will > users be able to distinguish between Fedora and any other Gnome > distribution? We do have branding - the login screen, the bootup screen, and the desktop background. (Seriously, this exact same argument was made as to why the birds were *required* in the desktop background over the upstream stripes in blue.) > Changing a start page in Firefox doesn't really cut it. [*] citation needed. We already have branding, and this discussion is merely about the level thereof. I'm not sure how the start page in the one app used by almost everyone, that will take up 50% (or more) of the screen by default is obviously not enough and also needs a 32x32 icon that would only take 0.08% of my screen. (Your screen may vary.) Bill ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
For the record, none of the Fedora users I'm close to use Firefox, they all use Chrome. For them at least the Firefox start page is a wasted effort. I'd imagine a sizable proportion of Fedora users would be in the same position. -Cam ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 05:52:51PM +0100, Camilo Mesias wrote: > For the record, none of the Fedora users I'm close to use Firefox, > they all use Chrome. For them at least the Firefox start page is a > wasted effort. > I'd imagine a sizable proportion of Fedora users would be in the same > position. What would be useful in this case is a bug filed against (perhaps) fedora-bookmarks to start with. It'd certainly be wortwhile to look into setting default pages for Chrome/Chromium. -- Paul W. Frieldshttp://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ Red Hat Summit/JBossWorld -- Register now! http://.theredhatsummit.com ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 12:58:54 +0100, Camilo Mesias wrote: > > For the record, in Gnome 2 / Fedora 14, wasn't there a Fedora logo on > the main menu? I say this because I had to add a menu to the panel > after a fumbling session by an inexperienced user, which removed the > menu entirely. When I replaced the menu it had a Gnome foot logo on it > instead of the Fedora logo. That depends on the icon set used by the theme. Personally I like the packman like icon from echo. ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 13:45:38 +0200, Timur Kristóf wrote: > > The logo should be in a place where the user always sees it. Just like > in any other desktop environment (and properitary operating systems also > have a logo that's always visible). As long as I can change it if I want. If I wanted the look of my desktop dictated to me, I probably wouldn't be a Fedora user in the first place. ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Re: [Design-team] Gnome-shell extension that adds a Fedora logo
On Apr 15, 2011 3:51 PM, "Matthias Clasen" wrote: > So, I don't think there is any basis for a discussion here. There is no > icon in the top left corner, and there won't be one on the desktop spin. Wow. Way to categorically kill a discussion. Nice to know that we don't have any say in this at all. It seems like people are happy to accept you doing work for Fedora Design but as soon as you're trying to discuss any general direction stuff you're immediately shut down. I wouldn't have expected this to ever go into the distro but some discussion on the merits would have been nice. Fab ___ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
