Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Ma Xiaojun]

On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Alberto Ruiz  wrote:
> Ubuntu 10.04 is an LTS release, it is supported up to 5 years. EOL is 15.04.

5 year for server and 3 year for desktop.
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Alberto Ruiz]

Ubuntu 10.04 is an LTS release, it is supported up to 5 years. EOL is 15.04.
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Emmanuele Bassi]

hi;

On 22 November 2012 14:04, Simon McVittie
 wrote:

> Shell performance is not our only problem with modern GNOME and
> non-llvmpipe software rendering: there have been reports that
> applications using Clutter (e.g. Empathy with libchamplain) just don't
> start. ()

those are usually missing extensions and/or old versions of GLX
support in the swrast code paths in Mesa. Clutter (and Cogl) already
have feature negotiation through the GL API

admittedly, the non-llvmpipe rasterizer hasn't seen as much work as
the llvmpipe-based one, so I guess it's a matter of resources required
to be allocated towards fixing the old swrast code path.

ciao,
 Emmanuele.

--
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name
B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Simon McVittie]

On 21/11/12 20:11, David King wrote:
> However llvmpipe doesn't currently work on some architectures (ppc,
> s390, arm?--ARM (hf) works-shawnl)

Debian is perhaps a useful source here, since we have more
architectures than most (any?) other distributions.

It seems we currently only build the llvmpipe driver on i386 and x86-64
(including non-Linux kernels on those architectures, though). I'm sure
the Debian Mesa maintainers would appreciate successful test reports for
other platforms: a comment in the packaging indicates that they're only
limiting llvmpipe to x86 because nobody has confirmed that it works
elsewhere.

I can confirm that under kvm virtualization on a modern laptop (Lenovo
X220, using spice to display graphics in virt-manager), GNOME 3.6 uses
fallback mode by default, but when forced to try Shell mode
(gnome.fallback=0 on kernel command line), performance is
fine (~ 15 fps). On the other hand, the Gallium swrast driver (not
llvmpipe) on the same setup is not really usable (~ 1 fps).

Shell performance is not our only problem with modern GNOME and
non-llvmpipe software rendering: there have been reports that
applications using Clutter (e.g. Empathy with libchamplain) just don't
start. ()

S
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Matej Cepl]

On 2012-11-21, 21:55 GMT, Alberto Ruiz wrote:
> Why did you upgrade her setup then? My mom still uses GNOME 2 (Ubuntu
> 10.04, have not touched that machine ever since I installed it), I just

It is not supported anymore (especially with security patches) ... if 
you want long-term support Debian/stable or CentOS are the ways to do, 
I guess.

Matěj

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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Jasper St. Pierre]

On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Alan Cox  wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 05:47:30 -0500
> "Jasper St. Pierre"  wrote:
>
> > The hardware accelerated graphics API that the rest of the world has
> > depended upon is OpenGL, minus Direct3D for obvious reasons. It's
> > unfortunate, but if OpenGL isn't supported on these devices, a hardware
> > accelerated desktop isn't going to be possible. I don't think it's worth
> it
> > to write hardware acceleration code because the driver maintainers
> couldn't
> > give us the API that everybody else has.
>
> LLVMpipe gives you that API
>

Sure. It's not hardware-accelerated, though, which is the issue we're
discussing with PowerVR. If they implement what we need in terms of a
hardware-accelerated graphics rendering API (OpenGL, plus a few extensions
here and there), things should start to work.


> > The issue should be fixed at the driver level, not at the GNOME level.
>
> You can't fix it at the driver level or that easily at the Gl level. The
> problem you have is that Gl type rendering doesn't allow the stack
> sufficient ability to identify optimisations for what is basically for
> the most part 2D abuse of the 3D API. In addition it is more CPU
> intensive to do Gl emulation which in todays world means that it costs
> power and thus battery life.
>

Sure, we can argue about whether GL is a good API for what we're doing, and
design better APIs for rendering 2D graphics efficiently (XRender,
anyone?), but a simple fact remains: OpenGL is the API we have for doing
hardware-accelerated graphics rendering, like it or not.

Implementing a software renderer for gnome-shell / Clutter isn't on my list
of things to do in the near future.


> Hence you need to do it higher up the stack where you have the
> information needed. E does this and that is why E is very fast on just
> about any hardware.
>


> You also need to be aware of much of this higher up anyway even in the
> OpenGL world because you need to adjust your options and effects based on
> the timing and performance currently being received do that you can for
> example dynamically drop out some of the effects on a box under load, or
> perhaps on a low clock in battery mode.
>
> Alan
>



-- 
  Jasper
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Alan Cox]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 05:47:30 -0500
"Jasper St. Pierre"  wrote:

> The hardware accelerated graphics API that the rest of the world has
> depended upon is OpenGL, minus Direct3D for obvious reasons. It's
> unfortunate, but if OpenGL isn't supported on these devices, a hardware
> accelerated desktop isn't going to be possible. I don't think it's worth it
> to write hardware acceleration code because the driver maintainers couldn't
> give us the API that everybody else has.

LLVMpipe gives you that API

> The issue should be fixed at the driver level, not at the GNOME level.

You can't fix it at the driver level or that easily at the Gl level. The
problem you have is that Gl type rendering doesn't allow the stack
sufficient ability to identify optimisations for what is basically for
the most part 2D abuse of the 3D API. In addition it is more CPU
intensive to do Gl emulation which in todays world means that it costs
power and thus battery life.

Hence you need to do it higher up the stack where you have the
information needed. E does this and that is why E is very fast on just
about any hardware.

You also need to be aware of much of this higher up anyway even in the
OpenGL world because you need to adjust your options and effects based on
the timing and performance currently being received do that you can for
example dynamically drop out some of the effects on a box under load, or
perhaps on a low clock in battery mode.

Alan
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Jasper St. Pierre]

The hardware accelerated graphics API that the rest of the world has
depended upon is OpenGL, minus Direct3D for obvious reasons. It's
unfortunate, but if OpenGL isn't supported on these devices, a hardware
accelerated desktop isn't going to be possible. I don't think it's worth it
to write hardware acceleration code because the driver maintainers couldn't
give us the API that everybody else has.

The issue should be fixed at the driver level, not at the GNOME level.


On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 5:30 AM, Alan Cox  wrote:

> It's a series of chipsets involved
>
> GMA500 ('Poulsbo')
> GMA600 ('Oaktrail')
> GMA3600 ('Cedartrail')
> GMA3650 ('Cedartrail')
> E6xx ('Tunnel Creek')
>
> The unaccelerated driver is quite happy with 2D desktops but LLVMpipe and
> the paths used by the Gnome bling and compositing seem to hit it a lot
> harder.
>
> That probably points to it being at least partly solvable by de-blinging
> the Gnome3 desktop or optimising/changing how it renders. E for example
> has multiple rendering back ends.
>
> Alan
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-- 
  Jasper
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Alan Cox]

> How could GNOME encourage decent drivers? Have the GNOME foundation ask
> the company? Go via Linux Foundation? Maybe some kind of request? Would
> throwing money at it help (how much?)?

I am not that sure. The business and politics of graphics controllers is
a good deal bigger and more complicated than Gnome. I'm hoping
Valve/Steam has an impact.

There are obvious things like buying hardware that is properly
supported, and filing bug reports. However I think most people who care
enough are already doing that.

In addition telling people what hardware is known to work with free
drivers and is good is always going to be helpful. Especially as much of
the hardware which will do the job is very cheap anyway. On laptops and
tablets however you tend to be stuck with buying the right device.

Alan
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Alan Cox]

It's a series of chipsets involved

GMA500 ('Poulsbo')
GMA600 ('Oaktrail')
GMA3600 ('Cedartrail')
GMA3650 ('Cedartrail')
E6xx ('Tunnel Creek')

The unaccelerated driver is quite happy with 2D desktops but LLVMpipe and
the paths used by the Gnome bling and compositing seem to hit it a lot
harder.

That probably points to it being at least partly solvable by de-blinging
the Gnome3 desktop or optimising/changing how it renders. E for example
has multiple rendering back ends.

Alan
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Bastien Nocera]

On Thu, 2012-11-22 at 10:18 +0100, Olav Vitters wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 09:00:56PM +, Alan Cox wrote:
> > Equally its near unusable on a brand new netbook which has Imagination
> > graphics and a relatively low end CPU.
> 
> How could GNOME encourage decent drivers? Have the GNOME foundation ask
> the company? Go via Linux Foundation? Maybe some kind of request? Would
> throwing money at it help (how much?)?

People have been banging their heads about this chipset:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poulsbo_(chipset)#Poulsbo

There's nothing to be done about it, Intel wanted to save money and
bought a GPU core for their Atom CPU along with binary blobs for
drivers.

It's junk.

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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Olav Vitters]

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 09:00:56PM +, Alan Cox wrote:
> Equally its near unusable on a brand new netbook which has Imagination
> graphics and a relatively low end CPU.

How could GNOME encourage decent drivers? Have the GNOME foundation ask
the company? Go via Linux Foundation? Maybe some kind of request? Would
throwing money at it help (how much?)?

-- 
Regards,
Olav
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Olav Vitters]

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 06:47:35PM -0600, Ma Xiaojun wrote:
> Though it seems hopeless to change the decision, I find some tendency 
> annoying.

You missed the obvious answer:
- Need to ensure that the driver supports what the hardware is capable
  of.

> 2. Folks can use LLVMpipe.

llvmpipe is not meant as a replacement. The solution is good drivers,
llvmpipe should be seen as a workaround to at least be able to use GNOME 3.

-- 
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Olav
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Ma Xiaojun]

Though it seems hopeless to change the decision, I find some tendency annoying.

1. I have a machine that works well.
If you seriously believe they will work for most machines. Let me do a
serious statistics to prove or disprove your claim.
But my intuition is that it is generally harder to properly utilize
graphic hardware on Linux than that of some years ago (I start messing
with Linux since old Red Hat Linux 8.0). For example, the annoying
switchable graphics. On the other hand, desktop environments are more
dependent on OpenGL. So it's harder from both sides, so sad.

2. Folks can use LLVMpipe.
It slow down the machine anyway, sometimes you can really measure it.
What about laptop's battery life? An interesting observation is that
Linux newbies sometimes try hard to increse battery life on Linux
while Linux veteran sometimes just accept the fact running Linux means
shorter battery life.

3. You can still use GNOME 2.
If the user don't care about recent graphical apps, it's fine. Though
Ubuntu 10.04 is going to EOL next year, we still have CentOS. If you
do care, then I'd say it's a lot easier installing GIMP 2.8, Lib 3.6,
... on Redmond XP (EOL 2014) than remaining old distribution releases
featuring GNOME 2.
As Fedora already trying to package MATE, Debian/Ubuntu guys may
follow up the track. Though I'm not sure will Fedora 18 ever release.

4. It's free software. You can contribute.
I believe very very few people can ever become a develop and only few
of them will spend time writing patch, try contacting developer, ...
I think the most reasonable contribution a general user can make is
that she can point out problems she met in various channels.
Ever since the introduction of GNOME 3, I guess most common responses
users get are "We know better." I don't want comment particular cases
but I wonder have you ever tried informing users? Probably you made
some decisions on a public IRC / mailing list so you think it is
enough?
On bugzilla, bugs just pile up. That's users' contribution also. But I
haven't seen any major attempt to clean these bugs up and solving real
problems. What's interesting about a new release that ports to Python
3 and drops Fallback mode?
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[John Stowers]

> advanced setting app is SLOW to react to clicks in the categories list (about 
> 2 to 3 seconds)
>

Meh, that is just my rubbish code*, not a statement by the GNOME that
you must buy a new computer.

Some combinations of bugs from you list might make things slower on
your hardware. Anecdotes here suggest they  don't do that for
everyone. Software is made of bugs, it will continue to be made of
bugs, and patches are always appreciated. It's a rude thing to say but
it is the world we choose to live in.

John

* http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-tweak-tool/tree/gtweak/tweakview.py#n90
(showing and hiding lots of widgets is probably not the nicest thing
to do here...)
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Alberto Ruiz]

2012/11/21 Raphaël Jacquot 

> * system useability - UI issues
> some windows are way too large (and can't be resized or scrolled), for
> instance, system settings
> My mother, 70 years old, worked on various versions of windows for 20
> years or so.
> when she retired, she looked at my linux desktop (at the time gnome 2 on
> some ubuntu), and requested that I install it on her machine instead of the
> windows she had
> come ubuntu unity... she called in despair "I can't find anything anymore,
> where is my solitaire game ?"
> so, I installed debian instead... suddently, gnome updates, she calls
> again "I don't understand, everything is changed, can't find $game anymore"
> so I setup the "Gnome (classic)" as default.
>
> guess gnome 3.8, when it shows up on said debian will leave me no choice
> but move her to some other desktop again.
> as an alternative, Emmanuele is invited to come over to her place and give
> her private courses in "the new Gnome"
> (ouch, that felt like an Apple keynote conclusion)
>

Why did you upgrade her setup then? My mom still uses GNOME 2 (Ubuntu
10.04, have not touched that machine ever since I installed it), I just
don't upgrade her machine unless I'm ready to teach her the changes. People
do not upgrade their desktop and apps constantly, that's something that
only computer geeks do. This is how sysadmins deal with their users. Also
in large organizations. You are blaming us for modernizing our software...
I can't hardly see how that's a bad thing.

If you want to keep using GNOME 2, just don' upgrade it! The software is
there for you to use it.


>
> On 21 nov. 2012, at 21:17, Emmanuele Bassi  wrote:
> > writing modern software for old and
> > underpowered hardware is not really an option. if you want to use
> > really old hardware there are better projects that can benefit from
> > contributions.
>
> I'm not talking about OLD hardware, but even recent hardware that's sold
> to run windows 7 (ok, starter edition, but that's besides the point)
>
> >> now the REAL question is :
> >> Is the Gnome community NO BETTER than Microsoft at forcing Hardware
> Upgrades ?
> >
> > let's not resort to out of place hyperboles, please.
>
> it is not an hyperbole, but a real question, coming from the heart...
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-- 
Cheers,
Alberto Ruiz
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Debarshi Ray]

> The decision is all nice and well. however this will force people that don't
> have the latest and greatest accelerated hardware to switch to something
> else. most PCs that are more that 2 years old are probably out of the game.

I am typing this from a five and a half years old Macbook running GNOME 3.4.
GNOME Shell runs just fine and has always been that way since I first installed
it when GNOME 3.0 came out. I have never used anything else on this laptop.

I used to try out the GNOME Shell snapshots during the pre-3.0 days on some
cheap Intel netbook that the university gave us. Never used it for too long,
but I recall that it ran reasonably well.

I have also ran GNOME 3.x with GNOME Shell on a 2nd hand Thinkpad x60 that I
have. Runs surprisingly well for such an old laptop.

Cheers,
Debarshi

-- 
There are two hard problems in computer science: cache invalidation, naming
things and off-by-one errors.


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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Alan Cox]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:50:37 +0100
Raphaël Jacquot  wrote:

> 
> On 21 nov. 2012, at 21:31, Alberto Ruiz  wrote:
> 
> > A "classic mode" for GNOME Shell could make use of less expensive effects 
> > that could relieve the software rendenrer making the experience a lot nicer 
> > on machines with driver problems (or other cases where native GL could not 
> > be provided).
> 
> sounds like a rather good option, how about asking on firstboot, when 
> detecting hardware that could be rather slow, an option to cut all the nice 
> bling, so as to save cpu/gpu cycles...

That ought to be happening automatically based upon timing the effects
and also on things like battery life. 3D compositing is a video memory
hog and that has material power impact.

Alan
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Alan Cox]

> GNOME shell should work on any graphics card 5 years or older.  We should
> have good data backing this up as I know that Fedora has done QA on a
> number of hardware to test gnome-shell in order to know what hardware
> profiles shell will work on.

Its passably usable (lot of laggy movement) on a dirt cheap ATI 54x0
driving three monitors with 1080p. With a single monitor configuration
I'm sure it would be fine. Ditto with single/dual on most intel setups.

Equally its near unusable on a brand new netbook which has Imagination
graphics and a relatively low end CPU.

LLVMpipe only seems to really be usable if you have a decent processor and
a lot of memory bandwidth to the video

Alan
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Raphaël Jacquot]

On 21 nov. 2012, at 21:31, Alberto Ruiz  wrote:

> A "classic mode" for GNOME Shell could make use of less expensive effects 
> that could relieve the software rendenrer making the experience a lot nicer 
> on machines with driver problems (or other cases where native GL could not be 
> provided).

sounds like a rather good option, how about asking on firstboot, when detecting 
hardware that could be rather slow, an option to cut all the nice bling, so as 
to save cpu/gpu cycles...
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Raphaël Jacquot]

On 21 nov. 2012, at 21:11, David King  wrote:

> 
> “Since the release of 3.0, a technology called llvmpipe has allowed for fast 
> software rendering, lowering the need for the fallback mode. However llvmpipe 
> doesn't currently work on some architectures (ppc, s390, arm?--ARM (hf) 
> works-shawnl) and might not work in some non-Linux-based OS (OpenBSD support 
> is not there, for instance).”
> 
> If you would care to test llvmpipe with GNOME Shell and report back on the 
> performance, I am sure that would be a useful data point for the
> discussion. Personally, I use GNOME Shell on some hardware from 3 years ago 
> and the (accelerated) performance seems fine.

sure, I have a raspberry pi to try to use it on (the model with 256Mb of ram) !
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Raphaël Jacquot]

On 21 nov. 2012, at 21:12, Sriram Ramkrishna  wrote:
> 
> Hey!  Long time no talk, hope all is well.
> 
> GNOME shell should work on any graphics card 5 years or older.  We should 
> have good data backing this up as I know that Fedora has done QA on a number 
> of hardware to test gnome-shell in order to know what hardware profiles shell 
> will work on.
> 
> I read many testimonials where shell has worked nicely on netbooks which 
> don't have good 3D hardware.  A the very least, llvmpipe makes software 
> rendering work fairly well on older hardware without a 3D card.
> 

I do use, daily, an ACER aspire D257 that I bought just last year containing 
the following :

* N570 2 core 2 threads CPU
* Pineview GM graphics
* 1024 * 600 screen
* 2G of ram (system maximum)

* system useability - NOT snappy :
start from a rebooted debian sid system (just to be fair)
from the logging screen to usable desktop: about 30 seconds
pressing anything (activities, calendar, user name), takes about 1s to show the 
appropriate window
clicking the applications tab, 6 seconds for stuff to appear
searching takes about 1s per keypress
advanced setting app is SLOW to react to clicks in the categories list (about 2 
to 3 seconds)

* system useability - UI issues
some windows are way too large (and can't be resized or scrolled), for 
instance, system settings
My mother, 70 years old, worked on various versions of windows for 20 years or 
so.
when she retired, she looked at my linux desktop (at the time gnome 2 on some 
ubuntu), and requested that I install it on her machine instead of the windows 
she had
come ubuntu unity... she called in despair "I can't find anything anymore, 
where is my solitaire game ?"
so, I installed debian instead... suddently, gnome updates, she calls again "I 
don't understand, everything is changed, can't find $game anymore"
so I setup the "Gnome (classic)" as default.

guess gnome 3.8, when it shows up on said debian will leave me no choice but 
move her to some other desktop again.
as an alternative, Emmanuele is invited to come over to her place and give her 
private courses in "the new Gnome"
(ouch, that felt like an Apple keynote conclusion)

On 21 nov. 2012, at 21:17, Emmanuele Bassi  wrote:
> writing modern software for old and
> underpowered hardware is not really an option. if you want to use
> really old hardware there are better projects that can benefit from
> contributions.

I'm not talking about OLD hardware, but even recent hardware that's sold to run 
windows 7 (ok, starter edition, but that's besides the point)

>> now the REAL question is :
>> Is the Gnome community NO BETTER than Microsoft at forcing Hardware Upgrades 
>> ?
> 
> let's not resort to out of place hyperboles, please.

it is not an hyperbole, but a real question, coming from the heart...
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Alberto Ruiz]

Hi Raphael,

Just for the record. You don't need the latest and greatest accelerated
hardware to run GNOME Shell. I've done GNOME 3.0 presentations on an aspire
one netbook from circa 2007 and it's lightning fast.

You can run GNOME Shell on any 10 year old GPU as far as the drivers are in
a decent shape. In those cases there's the software renderer: llvmpipe.

A "classic mode" for GNOME Shell could make use of less expensive effects
that could relieve the software rendenrer making the experience a lot nicer
on machines with driver problems (or other cases where native GL could not
be provided).



2012/11/21 Raphaël Jacquot 

>
> On 9 nov. 2012, at 16:56, Matthias Clasen 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > last weekend, the release team met and discussed (among other things)
> > the DropOrFixFallbackMode [1] feature. We've come to the conclusion
> > that we can't maintain fallback mode in reasonable quality, and are
> > better off dropping it. We're now working on organizing this so that
> > it does not create more unnecessary fallout.
>
> I don't talk often on this list, for lack of available time, but have the
> following to say :
>
> The decision is all nice and well. however this will force people that
> don't have the latest and greatest accelerated hardware to switch to
> something else.
> most PCs that are more that 2 years old are probably out of the game.
>
> now the REAL question is :
> Is the Gnome community NO BETTER than Microsoft at forcing Hardware
> Upgrades ?
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-- 
Cheers,
Alberto Ruiz
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Milan Bouchet-Valat]

Le mercredi 21 novembre 2012 à 20:53 +0100, Raphaël Jacquot a écrit :
> On 9 nov. 2012, at 16:56, Matthias Clasen 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > last weekend, the release team met and discussed (among other
> things)
> > the DropOrFixFallbackMode [1] feature. We've come to the conclusion
> > that we can't maintain fallback mode in reasonable quality, and are
> > better off dropping it. We're now working on organizing this so that
> > it does not create more unnecessary fallout.
> 
> I don't talk often on this list, for lack of available time, but have
> the following to say :
> 
> The decision is all nice and well. however this will force people that
> don't have the latest and greatest accelerated hardware to switch to
> something else.
> most PCs that are more that 2 years old are probably out of the game.
> 
> now the REAL question is :
> Is the Gnome community NO BETTER than Microsoft at forcing Hardware
> Upgrades ?
I really don't think this is a matter of recent hardware or not. I used
GNOME Shell for several years on a laptop that I bought in 2006. So
definitely not a recent machine.

But it had an Intel GPU with a good support. Today, the question is more
whether you have a good free driver for your card or not, which mostly
depends on the hardware vendor. (And guess what, the paradox is that
bleeding edge GPUs are often not supported as well as relatively older
ones.)

And of course, for people with poor driver support for they GPU,
llvmpipe should work with reasonably recent CPUs. This is not a very
strong requirement at all.


My two cents

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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[David King]

On 2012-11-21 20:53, Raphaël Jacquot  wrote:

I don't talk often on this list, for lack of available time, but have the 
following to say :

The decision is all nice and well. however this will force people that don't 
have the latest and greatest accelerated hardware to switch to something else.
most PCs that are more that 2 years old are probably out of the game.


This was covered in the ‘Description’ section of the 
DropOrFixFallbackMode page that Matthias linked to:


https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointSeven/Features/DropOrFixFallbackMode

“Since the release of 3.0, a technology called llvmpipe has allowed for 
fast software rendering, lowering the need for the fallback mode. 
However llvmpipe doesn't currently work on some architectures (ppc, 
s390, arm?--ARM (hf) works-shawnl) and might not work in some 
non-Linux-based OS (OpenBSD support is not there, for instance).”


If you would care to test llvmpipe with GNOME Shell and report back on 
the performance, I am sure that would be a useful data point for the
discussion. Personally, I use GNOME Shell on some hardware from 3 years 
ago and the (accelerated) performance seems fine.


--
http://amigadave.com/
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Emmanuele Bassi]

hi;

On 21 November 2012 19:53, Raphaël Jacquot  wrote:

> The decision is all nice and well. however this will force people that don't 
> have the latest and greatest accelerated hardware to switch to something else.
> most PCs that are more that 2 years old are probably out of the game.

this is incorrect. hardware acceleration is available, using free
software drivers, on hardware that is 5 years old (945-class hardware,
release by Intel in 2005/2006). writing modern software for old and
underpowered hardware is not really an option. if you want to use
really old hardware there are better projects that can benefit from
contributions.

> now the REAL question is :
> Is the Gnome community NO BETTER than Microsoft at forcing Hardware Upgrades ?

let's not resort to out of place hyperboles, please.

ciao,
 Emmanuele.

--
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name
B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/
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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Raphaël Jacquot  wrote:

>
> On 9 nov. 2012, at 16:56, Matthias Clasen 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > last weekend, the release team met and discussed (among other things)
> > the DropOrFixFallbackMode [1] feature. We've come to the conclusion
> > that we can't maintain fallback mode in reasonable quality, and are
> > better off dropping it. We're now working on organizing this so that
> > it does not create more unnecessary fallout.
>
> I don't talk often on this list, for lack of available time, but have the
> following to say :
>
> The decision is all nice and well. however this will force people that
> don't have the latest and greatest accelerated hardware to switch to
> something else.
> most PCs that are more that 2 years old are probably out of the game.
>
> now the REAL question is :
> Is the Gnome community NO BETTER than Microsoft at forcing Hardware
> Upgrades ?
>

Hey!  Long time no talk, hope all is well.

GNOME shell should work on any graphics card 5 years or older.  We should
have good data backing this up as I know that Fedora has done QA on a
number of hardware to test gnome-shell in order to know what hardware
profiles shell will work on.

I read many testimonials where shell has worked nicely on netbooks which
don't have good 3D hardware.  A the very least, llvmpipe makes software
rendering work fairly well on older hardware without a 3D card.

sri

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Re: Dropping fallback mode in 3.8

[Raphaël Jacquot]

On 9 nov. 2012, at 16:56, Matthias Clasen  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> last weekend, the release team met and discussed (among other things)
> the DropOrFixFallbackMode [1] feature. We've come to the conclusion
> that we can't maintain fallback mode in reasonable quality, and are
> better off dropping it. We're now working on organizing this so that
> it does not create more unnecessary fallout.

I don't talk often on this list, for lack of available time, but have the 
following to say :

The decision is all nice and well. however this will force people that don't 
have the latest and greatest accelerated hardware to switch to something else.
most PCs that are more that 2 years old are probably out of the game.

now the REAL question is :
Is the Gnome community NO BETTER than Microsoft at forcing Hardware Upgrades ?
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