Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?

[Carlos Soriano]

Hello Baptiste,

Just want to clarify that you made a right choice of words depending on your 
intention.

If your intention was to see the why of this decision (a quick google search 
points to my blog post though) and vent, then it was fine, but this is not the 
place for venting, you have forums for that.

If your intention was to convince me and the ones involved in the feature that 
it was a bad decision, then saying "stupid" instead of "bad" accomplishes 
exactly the opposite, as it would happen with anyone that gives you something 
for free and you just tell them "this is stupid" with no more points at all and 
not even knowing that person :)

A thread that could be constructive, with clear points, a little study and 
roughly 2 emails became 12 kinda unrelated emails that I have no time to read.

I'll glad if next time that happens differently and we can actually take your 
points into consideration.



Best regards,
Carlos Soriano


 Original Message ----
Subject: Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?
Local Time: November 14, 2016 11:04 AM
UTC Time: November 14, 2016 10:04 AM
From: li...@andreasn.se
To: desktop-devel-list@gnome.org

On 2016-11-12 18:00, Baptiste Saleil wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> File roller extract my archives in current directory by double click
> since 3.22
> Is this a bug or a feature ?
>
> If it's a feature, is there a bug report or discussion I can track to
> understand why devs choose to make this change ?
>
> IMHO, this is one of the most stupid features which is again probably
> copied from the full-of-stupid-features MacOS.
> I mean, if you really want to extract an archive in the current
> directory, there is the "Extract here" context menu entry, and it's
> literaly the same amount of clicks.

I would categorize it as a feature, but it might have certain surprising
behavior bits about it, that breaks yours and others expectations.
Probably a good candidate for some usability testing in the future.

Having extraction support in a file manager is also present in Midnight
Commander, Windows Explorer (from XP and forward), ES File Explorer on
Android and probably a bunch of others that I'm forgetting about right now.
As someone else pointed out in the thread, there is a checkbox to turn
it off in Nautilus.

-- Below is some documentation about how it came to be --

GSOC project idea:
https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreach/SummerOfCode/2016/Ideas

GSOC project summary:
https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/archive/2016/projects/5271934111580160/

Here are some blog posts on the subject:
https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/05/10/gsoc-2016-the-adventure-begins/
https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/07/14/extraction-support-in-nautilus/
https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/07/19/automatic-decompression-of-archives/
https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/08/09/internal-compression/
https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/08/25/an-awesome-experience/

And the bug report that implements the functionality:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=768646

It was also in the news:
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/07/native-nautilus-file-extract-archive
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item=Nautilus-Improved-Extraction

- Andreas
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Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?

[Baptiste Saleil]

Thanks for the answers, and for all the links.

2016-11-14 5:04 GMT-05:00 Andreas Nilsson :

> On 2016-11-12 18:00, Baptiste Saleil wrote:
>
>> Hi all.
>>
>> File roller extract my archives in current directory by double click
>> since 3.22
>> Is this a bug or a feature ?
>>
>> If it's a feature, is there a bug report or discussion I can track to
>> understand why devs choose to make this change ?
>>
>> IMHO, this is one of the most stupid features which is again probably
>> copied from the full-of-stupid-features MacOS.
>> I mean, if you really want to extract an archive in the current
>> directory, there is the "Extract here" context menu entry, and it's
>> literaly the same amount of clicks.
>>
>
> I would categorize it as a feature, but it might have certain surprising
> behavior bits about it, that breaks yours and others expectations.
> Probably a good candidate for some usability testing in the future.
>
> Having extraction support in a file manager is also present in Midnight
> Commander, Windows Explorer (from XP and forward), ES File Explorer on
> Android and probably a bunch of others that I'm forgetting about right now.
> As someone else pointed out in the thread, there is a checkbox to turn it
> off in Nautilus.
>
> -- Below is some documentation about how it came to be --
>
> GSOC project idea:
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreach/SummerOfCode/2016/Ideas
>
> GSOC project summary:
> https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/archive/2016/projects/
> 5271934111580160/
>
> Here are some blog posts on the subject:
> https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/05/10/gsoc-2016-the-a
> dventure-begins/
> https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/07/14/extraction-supp
> ort-in-nautilus/
> https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/07/19/automatic-decom
> pression-of-archives/
> https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/08/09/internal-compression/
> https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/08/25/an-awesome-experience/
>
> And the bug report that implements the functionality:
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=768646
>
> It was also in the news:
> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/07/native-nautilus-file-extract-archive
> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item=Nautilus
> -Improved-Extraction
>
> - Andreas
>
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Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?

[Andreas Nilsson]

On 2016-11-12 18:00, Baptiste Saleil wrote:

Hi all.

File roller extract my archives in current directory by double click 
since 3.22

Is this a bug or a feature ?

If it's a feature, is there a bug report or discussion I can track to 
understand why devs choose to make this change ?


IMHO, this is one of the most stupid features which is again probably 
copied from the full-of-stupid-features MacOS.
I mean, if you really want to extract an archive in the current 
directory, there is the "Extract here" context menu entry, and it's 
literaly the same amount of clicks.


I would categorize it as a feature, but it might have certain surprising 
behavior bits about it, that breaks yours and others expectations.

Probably a good candidate for some usability testing in the future.

Having extraction support in a file manager is also present in Midnight 
Commander, Windows Explorer (from XP and forward), ES File Explorer on 
Android and probably a bunch of others that I'm forgetting about right now.
As someone else pointed out in the thread, there is a checkbox to turn 
it off in Nautilus.


-- Below is some documentation about how it came to be --

GSOC project idea:
https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreach/SummerOfCode/2016/Ideas

GSOC project summary:
https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/archive/2016/projects/5271934111580160/

Here are some blog posts on the subject:
https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/05/10/gsoc-2016-the-adventure-begins/
https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/07/14/extraction-support-in-nautilus/
https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/07/19/automatic-decompression-of-archives/
https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/08/09/internal-compression/
https://razvanchitu.wordpress.com/2016/08/25/an-awesome-experience/

And the bug report that implements the functionality:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=768646

It was also in the news:
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/07/native-nautilus-file-extract-archive
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item=Nautilus-Improved-Extraction

- Andreas
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Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?

[Michael Biebl]

This wasn't mentioned yet. But this feature is optional. You can
configure this in nautilus settings.
or via
gsettings set org.gnome.nautilus.preferences automatic-decompression false

2016-11-13 0:14 GMT+01:00 Bastien Nocera :
> On Sat, 2016-11-12 at 16:58 -0500, Baptiste Saleil wrote:
>> Thanks for the link to the blog post (thus the explanation to disable
>> the feature).
>>
>> So you mentioned that "Extract here" should not be available.
>
> The "Extract here" from file-roller, further down the menu, shouldn't
> be there. The "Extract here" from nautilus at the top of the menu
> should be there.
>
>> Actually it is available only if I enable the "Extract when opening"
>> option in nautilus and is not available when I uncheck it.
>> Is it not supposed to be the opposite ?
>
> No, that's about correct.
>
>> You said that it could be caused by a version mismatch, but my system
>> reports that version 3.22.1 of nautilus and 3.22.2 of file-roller are
>> installed. Should I report this as a bug ?
>
> Doesn't seem like a bug to me.
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-- 
Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the
universe are pointed away from Earth?
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Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?

[Bastien Nocera]

On Sat, 2016-11-12 at 16:58 -0500, Baptiste Saleil wrote:
> Thanks for the link to the blog post (thus the explanation to disable
> the feature).
> 
> So you mentioned that "Extract here" should not be available.

The "Extract here" from file-roller, further down the menu, shouldn't
be there. The "Extract here" from nautilus at the top of the menu
should be there.

> Actually it is available only if I enable the "Extract when opening"
> option in nautilus and is not available when I uncheck it.
> Is it not supposed to be the opposite ?

No, that's about correct.

> You said that it could be caused by a version mismatch, but my system
> reports that version 3.22.1 of nautilus and 3.22.2 of file-roller are
> installed. Should I report this as a bug ?

Doesn't seem like a bug to me.
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Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?

[Baptiste Saleil]

Thanks for the link to the blog post (thus the explanation to disable the
feature).

So you mentioned that "Extract here" should not be available.
Actually it is available only if I enable the "Extract when opening" option
in nautilus and is not available when I uncheck it.
Is it not supposed to be the opposite ?
You said that it could be caused by a version mismatch, but my system
reports that version 3.22.1 of nautilus and 3.22.2 of file-roller are
installed. Should I report this as a bug ?

Thanks.

2016-11-12 16:41 GMT-05:00 Bastien Nocera :

> On Sat, 2016-11-12 at 16:07 -0500, Baptiste Saleil wrote:
> > Again, I was never prentious enough to say that someone is stupid. I
> > only talked about a feature that I, personally, find "stupid", I
> > never talked about an actual person and I never would.
>
> It's still not constructive.
>
> > To go back to the original question, would you be so kind as to send
> > me links to the design pages and blog posts you mentioned earlier ?
>
> I already did link to one which you can use as a starting point.
>
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Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?

[Bastien Nocera]

On Sat, 2016-11-12 at 16:07 -0500, Baptiste Saleil wrote:
> Again, I was never prentious enough to say that someone is stupid. I
> only talked about a feature that I, personally, find "stupid", I
> never talked about an actual person and I never would.

It's still not constructive.

> To go back to the original question, would you be so kind as to send
> me links to the design pages and blog posts you mentioned earlier ?

I already did link to one which you can use as a starting point.
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Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?

[Baptiste Saleil]

Again, I was never prentious enough to say that someone is stupid. I only
talked about a feature that I, personally, find "stupid", I never talked
about an actual person and I never would.
To go back to the original question, would you be so kind as to send me
links to the design pages and blog posts you mentioned earlier ?
Thanks.

2016-11-12 15:41 GMT-05:00 Bastien Nocera :

> On Sat, 2016-11-12 at 13:12 -0500, Baptiste Saleil wrote:
> In passing, I'm not a native english speaker.Maybe you took
> personally the "you" in my last sentence, it was a general "you"
> meaning the users and not the developers. Maybe I should have said
> "If one wants..."
>
> Whether calling GNOME designers and developers stupid, or even Apple's
> designers and developers stupid is not the level of discourse we
> expect.
>
> Neither of the people that answered your original mail are native
> English speakers. We're not interested in non-constructive criticism
> and calling things "stupid" doesn't elevate the level.
>
> Fow what it's worth, apologising would likely have been easier and not
> dragged this conversation any further. Alas...
>
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Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?

[Bastien Nocera]

On Sat, 2016-11-12 at 13:12 -0500, Baptiste Saleil wrote:
In passing, I'm not a native english speaker.Maybe you took
personally the "you" in my last sentence, it was a general "you"
meaning the users and not the developers. Maybe I should have said
"If one wants..."

Whether calling GNOME designers and developers stupid, or even Apple's
designers and developers stupid is not the level of discourse we
expect.

Neither of the people that answered your original mail are native
English speakers. We're not interested in non-constructive criticism
and calling things "stupid" doesn't elevate the level.

Fow what it's worth, apologising would likely have been easier and not
dragged this conversation any further. Alas...
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Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?

[Baptiste Saleil]

In passing, I'm not a native english speaker.
Maybe you took personally the "you" in my last sentence, it was a general
"you" meaning the users and not the developers. Maybe I should have said
"If one wants..."

2016-11-12 12:51 GMT-05:00 Baptiste Saleil :

>
>
> 2016-11-12 12:47 GMT-05:00 Emmanuele Bassi :
>
>> Hi;
>>
>> On 12 November 2016 at 17:31, Baptiste Saleil 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> > IMHO, this is one of the most stupid features which is again probably
>> >> > copied from the full-of-stupid-features MacOS.
>> >>
>> >> What exactly do you expect this sort of comment to achieve?
>> >
>> >
>> > Just giving my opinion, "IMHO" states that it's only *my* opinion, and I
>> > didn't and will never say that it's a universal opinion.
>>
>> Just because you prefix it with 'IMHO' it doesn't mean you get to use
>> that kind of language; you're insulting the people that worked on
>> Nautilus to design, implement, and test that feature.
>>
> The GNOME mailing lists are under a Code of Conduct, and as such you
>> should refrain from being insulting and needlessly confrontational.
>>
>>
> I'm sorry but I never insulted anyone, I just gave my opinion which is
> that I think that some features are copied from MacOS. This is not an
> insult.
> Also I clearly asked from pointers to existing discussion in my first mail
> but you're only responding to the sentence in which I give my opinion which
> is probably the less interesting part of my first email. The only thing I
> want is to read discussion, see uses cases of gnome users and understand
> why people want this kind of feature.
>
>
>> Ciao,
>>  Emmanuele.
>>
>> --
>> https://www.bassi.io
>> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
>>
>
>
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Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?

[Baptiste Saleil]

2016-11-12 12:47 GMT-05:00 Emmanuele Bassi :

> Hi;
>
> On 12 November 2016 at 17:31, Baptiste Saleil 
> wrote:
>
> >> > IMHO, this is one of the most stupid features which is again probably
> >> > copied from the full-of-stupid-features MacOS.
> >>
> >> What exactly do you expect this sort of comment to achieve?
> >
> >
> > Just giving my opinion, "IMHO" states that it's only *my* opinion, and I
> > didn't and will never say that it's a universal opinion.
>
> Just because you prefix it with 'IMHO' it doesn't mean you get to use
> that kind of language; you're insulting the people that worked on
> Nautilus to design, implement, and test that feature.
>
The GNOME mailing lists are under a Code of Conduct, and as such you
> should refrain from being insulting and needlessly confrontational.
>
>
I'm sorry but I never insulted anyone, I just gave my opinion which is that
I think that some features are copied from MacOS. This is not an insult.
Also I clearly asked from pointers to existing discussion in my first mail
but you're only responding to the sentence in which I give my opinion which
is probably the less interesting part of my first email. The only thing I
want is to read discussion, see uses cases of gnome users and understand
why people want this kind of feature.


> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
>
> --
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
>
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Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?

[Emmanuele Bassi]

Hi;

On 12 November 2016 at 17:31, Baptiste Saleil  wrote:

>> > IMHO, this is one of the most stupid features which is again probably
>> > copied from the full-of-stupid-features MacOS.
>>
>> What exactly do you expect this sort of comment to achieve?
>
>
> Just giving my opinion, "IMHO" states that it's only *my* opinion, and I
> didn't and will never say that it's a universal opinion.

Just because you prefix it with 'IMHO' it doesn't mean you get to use
that kind of language; you're insulting the people that worked on
Nautilus to design, implement, and test that feature.

The GNOME mailing lists are under a Code of Conduct, and as such you
should refrain from being insulting and needlessly confrontational.

Ciao,
 Emmanuele.

-- 
https://www.bassi.io
[@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
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Re: File roller extracting with double click, bug/feature ?

[Bastien Nocera]

Hello Baptiste,

On Sat, 2016-11-12 at 12:00 -0500, Baptiste Saleil wrote:
> Hi all.
> 
> File roller extract my archives in current directory by double click
> since 3.22
> Is this a bug or a feature ?
> 
> If it's a feature, is there a bug report or discussion I can track to
> understand why devs choose to make this change ?

It's not file-roller but nautilus, and the feature has been mentioned
in various blog posts, including this recap for GNOME 3.22:
https://csorianognome.wordpress.com/2016/08/31/nautilus-3-22-news-changes/

> IMHO, this is one of the most stupid features which is again probably
> copied from the full-of-stupid-features MacOS.

What exactly do you expect this sort of comment to achieve?

> I mean, if you really want to extract an archive in the current
> directory, there is the "Extract here" context menu entry, and it's
> literaly the same amount of clicks.

Looks like you have mismatched versions of file-roller and nautilus
though, because those 2 aren't supposed to appear at the same time.

Please make sure you've read the various blog posts and design wiki
pages before commenting further, especially using that kind of
language.

Cheers
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