Missing project reports / project status

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

The project has missed a report twice now and there seems to be little or no 
activity happening recently. Is there a reason for this? For PPMC members 
there's an important discussion going on at the private mailing list,vI mention 
it here as I know not many PPMC members are signed up to that list,  it would 
be nice if you gave some input.

Thanks,
Justin

Re: Project status

[Jean-Baptiste Onofré]

Thanks Nadav for the update.

Another focus should really be on the community. To be successful, the
project needs a wide & diverse community.

We can discuss about some actions to try to build this community, but
right now, it's not good enough.

Regards
JB

On 02/10/2018 10:26, Nadav Har Tzvi wrote:
> Hey,
> I was away for a vacation and had some pressure at my daily job before
> that, now all of that has cleared up. Yaniv and I started integration right
> before my vacation on the recent re-implementation of the Python SDK and
> the PySpark SDK. We work on integration in the level of configuration files
> prepared by the leader and pulled by the executor, these files are used to
> configure storage, logging and the generation of the Amaterasu runtime.
> We are really a few steps away from finishing it.
> I expect that if we can put an effort into this in the upcoming weekend, we
> can finally close this feature and move on to the next task.
> 
> Cheers,
> Nadav
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 10:28, Davor Bonaci  wrote:
> 
>> Any comments? Anyone?
>>
>> Option 1: start a vote to retire the podling and move the project into your
>> own repository.
>> Option 2: keep things as-is for a few months and re-assess.
>>
>> I'd say Option 2 requires a minimum of 3 people explicitly saying that they
>> want to continue trying and contributing.
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 8:13 PM Davor Bonaci  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Yaniv for your comments.
>>>
>>>- After the release of 0.2.0 the community became very quiet. I think
that at this point in the life of the project it is natural, as we
>> all
doing this in our free time and the release was a major effort that
 all of
us (after talking to members in the community) had to compensate for
 in our
day jobs and families.
With that said, we shouldn't have gone so quiet. I think we can all
agree this is not acceptable for so long (if at all).

>>>
>>> Not sure I agree: it is not natural for projects in the Incubator to be
>>> quiet. It does happen to projects that are getting obsolete/irrelevant,
>>> often after many years as TLPs. The release usually *increases* activity
>>> around the project as new users come, ask questions, start contributing,
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, totally fine for people to go quiet. The problem isn't
>>> around anybody going quiet, but the fact of nobody new arriving. Is there
>>> any evidence of any usage of the release? Anybody hitting any problem?
>> Any
>>> lack of documentation? Any bugfixes? That's the core of the problem.
>>>
>>>
- It is very critical at this point to grow the community. Going back
 to
my first point, as long as we are such a small community, efforts
>> like
releasing a version will set us back, and the last release is a good
example for that danger.

>>>
>>> Not sure I agree: releases usually pick up the activity, pick up new
>>> users, as new features now make the project more attractive. I don't
>> think
>>> I've ever seen an argument where "releasing a version sets us back".
>>> Especially the *first* one.
>>>
>>>- Grow the community. BTW I think this is one reason we should
>> consider
staying an Apache project, I think that with the release, we should
 also
shift some focus to growing the community. This is an issue I see
>> other
projects struggling with, this includes TLPs such as Apache Arrow
>> (in a
recent thread on their dev list) and I don't think there is one
>> answer
 on
how to do it, and I spent some time on other lists to see if they
>> have
solutions. I think we can do many things to fix this, and it's more
>> of
 a
trial and error process for most projects. Things we can (and should
 start
doing immediately) includes doing more public presentations (and I
 have to
give a shout-out @Nadav Har Tzvi  that
 presented
in two conferences recently), write blog posts, and we should all
 invest
time in doing so. But one thing we also need to do is actively
>> looking
 for
more contributors. If anyone here has someone they think is a good
>> fit,
let's try to get them onboard.

>>>
>>> Outreach (blogs, talks, etc.) can help, but they help you *scale*. I
>> think
>>> the project hasn't demonstrated early user fit -- and trying to scale
>>> before establishing that often doesn't yield results. For example, if you
>>> were to throw Amaterasu in front of 1000 people, how many would join the
>>> community? If only a few, it is probably a bad idea to do it. (I worry it
>>> is less than a few.)
>>>
>>> The problem is likely with the user fit, and can be solved only by user
>>> development -- most of which often happens before scaling, before
>> building
>>> the community, and before joining the Incubator.
>>>
>>> It is really, really, really hard to build the community 

Re: Project status

[Jean-Baptiste Onofré]

Hi,

I second Davor here. I think it makes sense to think about retiring the
podling. I don't see large community around the project (both dev and user).

Regards
JB

On 02/10/2018 09:27, Davor Bonaci wrote:
> Any comments? Anyone?
> 
> Option 1: start a vote to retire the podling and move the project into your
> own repository.
> Option 2: keep things as-is for a few months and re-assess.
> 
> I'd say Option 2 requires a minimum of 3 people explicitly saying that they
> want to continue trying and contributing.
> 
> On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 8:13 PM Davor Bonaci  wrote:
> 
>> Thanks Yaniv for your comments.
>>
>>- After the release of 0.2.0 the community became very quiet. I think
>>>that at this point in the life of the project it is natural, as we all
>>>doing this in our free time and the release was a major effort that
>>> all of
>>>us (after talking to members in the community) had to compensate for
>>> in our
>>>day jobs and families.
>>>With that said, we shouldn't have gone so quiet. I think we can all
>>>agree this is not acceptable for so long (if at all).
>>>
>>
>> Not sure I agree: it is not natural for projects in the Incubator to be
>> quiet. It does happen to projects that are getting obsolete/irrelevant,
>> often after many years as TLPs. The release usually *increases* activity
>> around the project as new users come, ask questions, start contributing,
>> etc.
>>
>> On the other hand, totally fine for people to go quiet. The problem isn't
>> around anybody going quiet, but the fact of nobody new arriving. Is there
>> any evidence of any usage of the release? Anybody hitting any problem? Any
>> lack of documentation? Any bugfixes? That's the core of the problem.
>>
>>
>>>- It is very critical at this point to grow the community. Going back
>>> to
>>>my first point, as long as we are such a small community, efforts like
>>>releasing a version will set us back, and the last release is a good
>>>example for that danger.
>>>
>>
>> Not sure I agree: releases usually pick up the activity, pick up new
>> users, as new features now make the project more attractive. I don't think
>> I've ever seen an argument where "releasing a version sets us back".
>> Especially the *first* one.
>>
>>- Grow the community. BTW I think this is one reason we should consider
>>>staying an Apache project, I think that with the release, we should
>>> also
>>>shift some focus to growing the community. This is an issue I see other
>>>projects struggling with, this includes TLPs such as Apache Arrow (in a
>>>recent thread on their dev list) and I don't think there is one answer
>>> on
>>>how to do it, and I spent some time on other lists to see if they have
>>>solutions. I think we can do many things to fix this, and it's more of
>>> a
>>>trial and error process for most projects. Things we can (and should
>>> start
>>>doing immediately) includes doing more public presentations (and I
>>> have to
>>>give a shout-out @Nadav Har Tzvi  that
>>> presented
>>>in two conferences recently), write blog posts, and we should all
>>> invest
>>>time in doing so. But one thing we also need to do is actively looking
>>> for
>>>more contributors. If anyone here has someone they think is a good fit,
>>>let's try to get them onboard.
>>>
>>
>> Outreach (blogs, talks, etc.) can help, but they help you *scale*. I think
>> the project hasn't demonstrated early user fit -- and trying to scale
>> before establishing that often doesn't yield results. For example, if you
>> were to throw Amaterasu in front of 1000 people, how many would join the
>> community? If only a few, it is probably a bad idea to do it. (I worry it
>> is less than a few.)
>>
>> The problem is likely with the user fit, and can be solved only by user
>> development -- most of which often happens before scaling, before building
>> the community, and before joining the Incubator.
>>
>> It is really, really, really hard to build the community before early user
>> fit.
>>
>> I think that the next few months are more about staying in the incubating
>>> or not, it is do-or-die for Amaterasu. We need to fix the situation so I
>>> wouldn't rush in this situation to consider retiring quite yet.
>>>
>>
>> I'm totally fine with leaving things as-is for a few more months. But, I
>> don't think it is realistic to expect changes to the degree necessary to
>> graduate. As a result, I think you can use *your time* better.
>>
>> * * *
>>
>> I'm really sorry to be the messenger of bad news. I don't want to paint
>> Amaterasu (or your work) in any bad way. I do want you and the project to
>> be most successful as possible.
>>
>> Please note that I don't gain anything by driving this conversation. In
>> fact, I lose a lot. Time is a precious resource of everyone -- and I'd like
>> to make sure that the time *you* have for the project is spent in a way
>> that is likely to yield results, not trying 

Re: Project status

[Davor Bonaci]

Thanks Yaniv for your comments.

   - After the release of 0.2.0 the community became very quiet. I think
>that at this point in the life of the project it is natural, as we all
>doing this in our free time and the release was a major effort that all
> of
>us (after talking to members in the community) had to compensate for in
> our
>day jobs and families.
>With that said, we shouldn't have gone so quiet. I think we can all
>agree this is not acceptable for so long (if at all).
>

Not sure I agree: it is not natural for projects in the Incubator to be
quiet. It does happen to projects that are getting obsolete/irrelevant,
often after many years as TLPs. The release usually *increases* activity
around the project as new users come, ask questions, start contributing,
etc.

On the other hand, totally fine for people to go quiet. The problem isn't
around anybody going quiet, but the fact of nobody new arriving. Is there
any evidence of any usage of the release? Anybody hitting any problem? Any
lack of documentation? Any bugfixes? That's the core of the problem.


>- It is very critical at this point to grow the community. Going back to
>my first point, as long as we are such a small community, efforts like
>releasing a version will set us back, and the last release is a good
>example for that danger.
>

Not sure I agree: releases usually pick up the activity, pick up new users,
as new features now make the project more attractive. I don't think I've
ever seen an argument where "releasing a version sets us back". Especially
the *first* one.

   - Grow the community. BTW I think this is one reason we should consider
>staying an Apache project, I think that with the release, we should also
>shift some focus to growing the community. This is an issue I see other
>projects struggling with, this includes TLPs such as Apache Arrow (in a
>recent thread on their dev list) and I don't think there is one answer
> on
>how to do it, and I spent some time on other lists to see if they have
>solutions. I think we can do many things to fix this, and it's more of a
>trial and error process for most projects. Things we can (and should
> start
>doing immediately) includes doing more public presentations (and I have
> to
>give a shout-out @Nadav Har Tzvi  that
> presented
>in two conferences recently), write blog posts, and we should all invest
>time in doing so. But one thing we also need to do is actively looking
> for
>more contributors. If anyone here has someone they think is a good fit,
>let's try to get them onboard.
>

Outreach (blogs, talks, etc.) can help, but they help you *scale*. I think
the project hasn't demonstrated early user fit -- and trying to scale
before establishing that often doesn't yield results. For example, if you
were to throw Amaterasu in front of 1000 people, how many would join the
community? If only a few, it is probably a bad idea to do it. (I worry it
is less than a few.)

The problem is likely with the user fit, and can be solved only by user
development -- most of which often happens before scaling, before building
the community, and before joining the Incubator.

It is really, really, really hard to build the community before early user
fit.

I think that the next few months are more about staying in the incubating
> or not, it is do-or-die for Amaterasu. We need to fix the situation so I
> wouldn't rush in this situation to consider retiring quite yet.
>

I'm totally fine with leaving things as-is for a few more months. But, I
don't think it is realistic to expect changes to the degree necessary to
graduate. As a result, I think you can use *your time* better.

* * *

I'm really sorry to be the messenger of bad news. I don't want to paint
Amaterasu (or your work) in any bad way. I do want you and the project to
be most successful as possible.

Please note that I don't gain anything by driving this conversation. In
fact, I lose a lot. Time is a precious resource of everyone -- and I'd like
to make sure that the time *you* have for the project is spent in a way
that is likely to yield results, not trying to achieve various ASF goals
that may not achievable. (If this is not obvious now, I trust that over
time direct feedback and tough conversations will be appreciated, instead
of letting you waste time for something unrealistic -- which is what most
people in my shoes would do.)

Project status

[Davor Bonaci]

I continue to be concerned about the project's ability to graduate from the
Incubator.

Right now, the last commit was ~1.5 months ago. Since July 1, there was
just a single contributor to the project. There were no substantive
discussions on the dev@ mailing list since June. I can confidently say that
the chances of ever graduating are very slim.

In my mind, the issue is "fit" between the project and the Foundation. The
Foundation imposes on a lot of requirements on the project. Those make
sense for some category of projects. I believe the tradeoffs here are not
in favor of Amaterasu -- you need to give a lot, and receive a little --
ultimately decreasing the chance of Amaterasu being successful.

Nobody should perceive that as a failure -- simply an issue of a fit. The
project is good, provides value, and has some interest around it. This is
not pass/fail test for the project.

My opinion is that the best path forward is to the retire Amaterasu
podling, and enable the project to thrive as a standalone project, without
any of the encumbrances imposed on the project right now.

Thoughts?

(I know this is something that nobody wants. Again, it is not a failure of
any kind -- just an issue of fit.)

Davor

Re: Project status

[Nadav Har Tzvi]

Hey there

I was extremely busy with my day-to-day work, but it seems like the clouds
are clearing up again, I expect to have more time to work on our project in
the upcoming weeks.
My current task is the new Amaterasu CLI, which is already mostly
implemented and I expect delivery somewhere in the next 2 weeks.
I will need to coordinate with Yaniv on the CI efforts, as the e2e tests
for the CLI require heavy lifting (as in having a test environment up with
the Amaterasu runtime properly deployed)

Another task which goes along the new CLI is new documentation, also on my
end.

On 31 March 2018 at 08:32, Jean-Baptiste Onofré  wrote:

> Agree
>
> It makes sense.
>
> Regards
> JB
>
> Le 31 mars 2018 à 02:46, à 02:46, Davor Bonaci  a écrit:
> >To close the loop on this...
> >
> >Without going too deep... just two individuals responding on this
> >thread in
> >10 days is way too little, given 5 PPMC members and 6 months in
> >incubation.
> >
> >One thing worth clarifying -- to succeed as an Apache project, yes, a
> >lot
> >of change is needed. However, I'm *not* saying that there's anything
> >wrong
> >with the project. Just I'm not sure that the project and the foundation
> >are
> >the right fit at this moment. Nothing wrong with that -- there are
> >many,
> >many ways to succeed as a project.
> >
> >I continue to be enthusiastic about this space and continue to be happy
> >to
> >help, as appropriate. That said, I'll revive this thread in 1-2 months
> >to
> >check on the progress. If there's no evidence of progress, it may be
> >best
> >to rethink the path forward then.
> >
> >On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Eyal Ben-Ivri 
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Hi to all,
> >>
> >> Sorry for not replying sooner, but I have been following the thread
> >> closely.
> >>
> >> It is quite obvious we need to find more people that will be active
> >in the
> >> Amaterasu project.
> >> Yaniv and myself are often communicating through private channels
> >(and I
> >> believe other developers are doing the same), and as an improvement,
> >we
> >> need to make Amaterasu related discussions through this mailing list.
> >> A lot of the features and milestones discussions (some of them are
> >> mentioned here like the Travis build) should be discussed here, and
> >that is
> >> something all of the active developers of the project should start to
> >do,
> >> in my opinion.
> >>
> >> Besides that, i agree with all the points raised here, and do think
> >that
> >> the main “beyond-the-code” goal should be growing the community
> >around
> >> Amaterasu.
> >>
> >> Thank you,
> >> Eyal
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 27. March 2018 at 07:12:04, Davor Bonaci (da...@apache.org) wrote:
> >>
> >> Anybody else?
> >>
> >> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 5:06 PM, Yaniv Rodenski 
> >wrote:
> >>
> >> > Thanks Davor,
> >> >
> >> > Points taken, we will learn and improve on those.
> >> >
> >> > Just one clearification, I was not blaming the mentor I myself was
> >more
> >> > focused on working with Guy on automating the build than following
> >up.
> >> > Rereading my own response I can see that was unclear.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 at 11:02 am, Davor Bonaci 
> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Thanks for a great response. Some comments inline.
> >> > >
> >> > > * In the last month we have been working on automating the
> >release
> >> > process
> >> > > > via Travis, we are still trying to enable Travis build for the
> >> > Amaterasu
> >> > > > repo, which is taking ridiculously long. We need one of the
> >mentors
> >> to
> >> > > just
> >> > > > enable it via their account (I've already talked a couple of
> >times to
> >> > one
> >> > > > of the mentors about it).
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Searching for 'travis' in the mailing list archives doesn't yield
> >any
> >> > > discussion threads.
> >> > >
> >> > > Mentors don't have permission to do this themselves. Infra JIRA
> >is the
> >> > way
> >> > > to do it, but I couldn't find such JIRA ticket filed.
> >> > >
> >> > > Emailing one mentor directly (or any other community member)
> >isn't a
> >> way
> >> > to
> >> > > build the community. Things need to be discussed in public
> >whenever
> >> > > possible.
> >> > >
> >> > > Given the above, blaming a mentor (whomever you may be referring
> >to)
> >> > > doesn't make sense.
> >> > >
> >> > > * We are ready to release version 0.2.0-incubating, the reason it
> >took
> >> > us a
> >> > > > month to initiate the process is the above automated build,
> >which I
> >> > > > suggested in prior discussion and had no rejections. We will
> >complete
> >> > > this
> >> > > > once build is enabled.
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > The release itself is a great milestone, but not the purpose to
> >itself.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > * as for community growth, we are working with two
> >organizations on
> >> > > running
> >> > > > POCs (which will hopefully grow the user base) one of them is

Re: Project status

[Jean-Baptiste Onofré]

Agree

It makes sense.

Regards
JB

Le 31 mars 2018 à 02:46, à 02:46, Davor Bonaci  a écrit:
>To close the loop on this...
>
>Without going too deep... just two individuals responding on this
>thread in
>10 days is way too little, given 5 PPMC members and 6 months in
>incubation.
>
>One thing worth clarifying -- to succeed as an Apache project, yes, a
>lot
>of change is needed. However, I'm *not* saying that there's anything
>wrong
>with the project. Just I'm not sure that the project and the foundation
>are
>the right fit at this moment. Nothing wrong with that -- there are
>many,
>many ways to succeed as a project.
>
>I continue to be enthusiastic about this space and continue to be happy
>to
>help, as appropriate. That said, I'll revive this thread in 1-2 months
>to
>check on the progress. If there's no evidence of progress, it may be
>best
>to rethink the path forward then.
>
>On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Eyal Ben-Ivri 
>wrote:
>
>> Hi to all,
>>
>> Sorry for not replying sooner, but I have been following the thread
>> closely.
>>
>> It is quite obvious we need to find more people that will be active
>in the
>> Amaterasu project.
>> Yaniv and myself are often communicating through private channels
>(and I
>> believe other developers are doing the same), and as an improvement,
>we
>> need to make Amaterasu related discussions through this mailing list.
>> A lot of the features and milestones discussions (some of them are
>> mentioned here like the Travis build) should be discussed here, and
>that is
>> something all of the active developers of the project should start to
>do,
>> in my opinion.
>>
>> Besides that, i agree with all the points raised here, and do think
>that
>> the main “beyond-the-code” goal should be growing the community
>around
>> Amaterasu.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Eyal
>>
>>
>>
>> On 27. March 2018 at 07:12:04, Davor Bonaci (da...@apache.org) wrote:
>>
>> Anybody else?
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 5:06 PM, Yaniv Rodenski 
>wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks Davor,
>> >
>> > Points taken, we will learn and improve on those.
>> >
>> > Just one clearification, I was not blaming the mentor I myself was
>more
>> > focused on working with Guy on automating the build than following
>up.
>> > Rereading my own response I can see that was unclear.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 at 11:02 am, Davor Bonaci 
>wrote:
>> >
>> > > Thanks for a great response. Some comments inline.
>> > >
>> > > * In the last month we have been working on automating the
>release
>> > process
>> > > > via Travis, we are still trying to enable Travis build for the
>> > Amaterasu
>> > > > repo, which is taking ridiculously long. We need one of the
>mentors
>> to
>> > > just
>> > > > enable it via their account (I've already talked a couple of
>times to
>> > one
>> > > > of the mentors about it).
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Searching for 'travis' in the mailing list archives doesn't yield
>any
>> > > discussion threads.
>> > >
>> > > Mentors don't have permission to do this themselves. Infra JIRA
>is the
>> > way
>> > > to do it, but I couldn't find such JIRA ticket filed.
>> > >
>> > > Emailing one mentor directly (or any other community member)
>isn't a
>> way
>> > to
>> > > build the community. Things need to be discussed in public
>whenever
>> > > possible.
>> > >
>> > > Given the above, blaming a mentor (whomever you may be referring
>to)
>> > > doesn't make sense.
>> > >
>> > > * We are ready to release version 0.2.0-incubating, the reason it
>took
>> > us a
>> > > > month to initiate the process is the above automated build,
>which I
>> > > > suggested in prior discussion and had no rejections. We will
>complete
>> > > this
>> > > > once build is enabled.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > The release itself is a great milestone, but not the purpose to
>itself.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > * as for community growth, we are working with two
>organizations on
>> > > running
>> > > > POCs (which will hopefully grow the user base) one of them is
>due to
>> > > start
>> > > > very soon. I don't want to name them (first of all it's too
>early,
>> and
>> > > also
>> > > > it is for them to decide if they want to share) but a
>representative
>> > from
>> > > > at least one of those organisations is on the list and is
>welcomed to
>> > > share
>> > > > :)
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Great!
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > * This year I've seen contributions from 4 contributors (not
>much
>> more
>> > > than
>> > > > 3, I know) but one of them is new (Guy Peleg) and AFAIK
>additional
>> > > > longer-term work is done by one more contributor on his local
>fork
>> > (Nadav
>> > > > Har-Tzvi)
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > I think this is the crux of the problem. Why is longer-term work
>going
>> on
>> > > in a local fork?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > * We should be presenting more, and growing the community more
>which
>> is
>> > > > hard to do starting out as a tiny community. Any advice given
>there
>> > 

Re: Project status

[Kirupa Devarajan]

Hi All,

Sorry for replying late. I just returned back from the vacation and
checking all my emails. We are in this project for sure and going forward
my engagement with the project will be more.

Once again I apologise for getting back late.

Regards,
Kirupa.

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 11:45 AM, Davor Bonaci  wrote:

> To close the loop on this...
>
> Without going too deep... just two individuals responding on this thread in
> 10 days is way too little, given 5 PPMC members and 6 months in incubation.
>
> One thing worth clarifying -- to succeed as an Apache project, yes, a lot
> of change is needed. However, I'm *not* saying that there's anything wrong
> with the project. Just I'm not sure that the project and the foundation are
> the right fit at this moment. Nothing wrong with that -- there are many,
> many ways to succeed as a project.
>
> I continue to be enthusiastic about this space and continue to be happy to
> help, as appropriate. That said, I'll revive this thread in 1-2 months to
> check on the progress. If there's no evidence of progress, it may be best
> to rethink the path forward then.
>
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Eyal Ben-Ivri 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi to all,
> >
> > Sorry for not replying sooner, but I have been following the thread
> > closely.
> >
> > It is quite obvious we need to find more people that will be active in
> the
> > Amaterasu project.
> > Yaniv and myself are often communicating through private channels (and I
> > believe other developers are doing the same), and as an improvement, we
> > need to make Amaterasu related discussions through this mailing list.
> > A lot of the features and milestones discussions (some of them are
> > mentioned here like the Travis build) should be discussed here, and that
> is
> > something all of the active developers of the project should start to do,
> > in my opinion.
> >
> > Besides that, i agree with all the points raised here, and do think that
> > the main “beyond-the-code” goal should be growing the community around
> > Amaterasu.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Eyal
> >
> >
> >
> > On 27. March 2018 at 07:12:04, Davor Bonaci (da...@apache.org) wrote:
> >
> > Anybody else?
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 5:06 PM, Yaniv Rodenski  wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks Davor,
> > >
> > > Points taken, we will learn and improve on those.
> > >
> > > Just one clearification, I was not blaming the mentor I myself was more
> > > focused on working with Guy on automating the build than following up.
> > > Rereading my own response I can see that was unclear.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 at 11:02 am, Davor Bonaci 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks for a great response. Some comments inline.
> > > >
> > > > * In the last month we have been working on automating the release
> > > process
> > > > > via Travis, we are still trying to enable Travis build for the
> > > Amaterasu
> > > > > repo, which is taking ridiculously long. We need one of the mentors
> > to
> > > > just
> > > > > enable it via their account (I've already talked a couple of times
> to
> > > one
> > > > > of the mentors about it).
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Searching for 'travis' in the mailing list archives doesn't yield any
> > > > discussion threads.
> > > >
> > > > Mentors don't have permission to do this themselves. Infra JIRA is
> the
> > > way
> > > > to do it, but I couldn't find such JIRA ticket filed.
> > > >
> > > > Emailing one mentor directly (or any other community member) isn't a
> > way
> > > to
> > > > build the community. Things need to be discussed in public whenever
> > > > possible.
> > > >
> > > > Given the above, blaming a mentor (whomever you may be referring to)
> > > > doesn't make sense.
> > > >
> > > > * We are ready to release version 0.2.0-incubating, the reason it
> took
> > > us a
> > > > > month to initiate the process is the above automated build, which I
> > > > > suggested in prior discussion and had no rejections. We will
> complete
> > > > this
> > > > > once build is enabled.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The release itself is a great milestone, but not the purpose to
> itself.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > * as for community growth, we are working with two organizations on
> > > > running
> > > > > POCs (which will hopefully grow the user base) one of them is due
> to
> > > > start
> > > > > very soon. I don't want to name them (first of all it's too early,
> > and
> > > > also
> > > > > it is for them to decide if they want to share) but a
> representative
> > > from
> > > > > at least one of those organisations is on the list and is welcomed
> to
> > > > share
> > > > > :)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Great!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > * This year I've seen contributions from 4 contributors (not much
> > more
> > > > than
> > > > > 3, I know) but one of them is new (Guy Peleg) and AFAIK additional
> > > > > longer-term work is done by one more contributor on his local fork
> > > (Nadav
> > 

Re: Project status

[Davor Bonaci]

To close the loop on this...

Without going too deep... just two individuals responding on this thread in
10 days is way too little, given 5 PPMC members and 6 months in incubation.

One thing worth clarifying -- to succeed as an Apache project, yes, a lot
of change is needed. However, I'm *not* saying that there's anything wrong
with the project. Just I'm not sure that the project and the foundation are
the right fit at this moment. Nothing wrong with that -- there are many,
many ways to succeed as a project.

I continue to be enthusiastic about this space and continue to be happy to
help, as appropriate. That said, I'll revive this thread in 1-2 months to
check on the progress. If there's no evidence of progress, it may be best
to rethink the path forward then.

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Eyal Ben-Ivri 
wrote:

> Hi to all,
>
> Sorry for not replying sooner, but I have been following the thread
> closely.
>
> It is quite obvious we need to find more people that will be active in the
> Amaterasu project.
> Yaniv and myself are often communicating through private channels (and I
> believe other developers are doing the same), and as an improvement, we
> need to make Amaterasu related discussions through this mailing list.
> A lot of the features and milestones discussions (some of them are
> mentioned here like the Travis build) should be discussed here, and that is
> something all of the active developers of the project should start to do,
> in my opinion.
>
> Besides that, i agree with all the points raised here, and do think that
> the main “beyond-the-code” goal should be growing the community around
> Amaterasu.
>
> Thank you,
> Eyal
>
>
>
> On 27. March 2018 at 07:12:04, Davor Bonaci (da...@apache.org) wrote:
>
> Anybody else?
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 5:06 PM, Yaniv Rodenski  wrote:
>
> > Thanks Davor,
> >
> > Points taken, we will learn and improve on those.
> >
> > Just one clearification, I was not blaming the mentor I myself was more
> > focused on working with Guy on automating the build than following up.
> > Rereading my own response I can see that was unclear.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 at 11:02 am, Davor Bonaci  wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for a great response. Some comments inline.
> > >
> > > * In the last month we have been working on automating the release
> > process
> > > > via Travis, we are still trying to enable Travis build for the
> > Amaterasu
> > > > repo, which is taking ridiculously long. We need one of the mentors
> to
> > > just
> > > > enable it via their account (I've already talked a couple of times to
> > one
> > > > of the mentors about it).
> > > >
> > >
> > > Searching for 'travis' in the mailing list archives doesn't yield any
> > > discussion threads.
> > >
> > > Mentors don't have permission to do this themselves. Infra JIRA is the
> > way
> > > to do it, but I couldn't find such JIRA ticket filed.
> > >
> > > Emailing one mentor directly (or any other community member) isn't a
> way
> > to
> > > build the community. Things need to be discussed in public whenever
> > > possible.
> > >
> > > Given the above, blaming a mentor (whomever you may be referring to)
> > > doesn't make sense.
> > >
> > > * We are ready to release version 0.2.0-incubating, the reason it took
> > us a
> > > > month to initiate the process is the above automated build, which I
> > > > suggested in prior discussion and had no rejections. We will complete
> > > this
> > > > once build is enabled.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The release itself is a great milestone, but not the purpose to itself.
> > >
> > >
> > > > * as for community growth, we are working with two organizations on
> > > running
> > > > POCs (which will hopefully grow the user base) one of them is due to
> > > start
> > > > very soon. I don't want to name them (first of all it's too early,
> and
> > > also
> > > > it is for them to decide if they want to share) but a representative
> > from
> > > > at least one of those organisations is on the list and is welcomed to
> > > share
> > > > :)
> > > >
> > >
> > > Great!
> > >
> > >
> > > > * This year I've seen contributions from 4 contributors (not much
> more
> > > than
> > > > 3, I know) but one of them is new (Guy Peleg) and AFAIK additional
> > > > longer-term work is done by one more contributor on his local fork
> > (Nadav
> > > > Har-Tzvi)
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think this is the crux of the problem. Why is longer-term work going
> on
> > > in a local fork?
> > >
> > >
> > > > * We should be presenting more, and growing the community more which
> is
> > > > hard to do starting out as a tiny community. Any advice given there
> > would
> > > > be appreciated.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The first thing has to be do the basics well: on-list communication,
> open
> > > discussions, no side channels, etc.
> > >
> > --
> > Yaniv Rodenski
> >
> > +61 477 778 405
> > ya...@shinto.io
> >
>

Re: Project status

[Eyal Ben-Ivri]

Hi to all,

Sorry for not replying sooner, but I have been following the thread closely. 

It is quite obvious we need to find more people that will be active in the 
Amaterasu project.
Yaniv and myself are often communicating through private channels (and I 
believe other developers are doing the same), and as an improvement, we need to 
make Amaterasu related discussions through this mailing list.
A lot of the features and milestones discussions (some of them are mentioned 
here like the Travis build) should be discussed here, and that is something all 
of the active developers of the project should start to do, in my opinion.

Besides that, i agree with all the points raised here, and do think that the 
main “beyond-the-code” goal should be growing the community around Amaterasu.

Thank you,
Eyal



On 27. March 2018 at 07:12:04, Davor Bonaci (da...@apache.org) wrote:

Anybody else?  

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 5:06 PM, Yaniv Rodenski  wrote:  

> Thanks Davor,  
>  
> Points taken, we will learn and improve on those.  
>  
> Just one clearification, I was not blaming the mentor I myself was more  
> focused on working with Guy on automating the build than following up.  
> Rereading my own response I can see that was unclear.  
>  
>  
> On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 at 11:02 am, Davor Bonaci  wrote:  
>  
> > Thanks for a great response. Some comments inline.  
> >  
> > * In the last month we have been working on automating the release  
> process  
> > > via Travis, we are still trying to enable Travis build for the  
> Amaterasu  
> > > repo, which is taking ridiculously long. We need one of the mentors to  
> > just  
> > > enable it via their account (I've already talked a couple of times to  
> one  
> > > of the mentors about it).  
> > >  
> >  
> > Searching for 'travis' in the mailing list archives doesn't yield any  
> > discussion threads.  
> >  
> > Mentors don't have permission to do this themselves. Infra JIRA is the  
> way  
> > to do it, but I couldn't find such JIRA ticket filed.  
> >  
> > Emailing one mentor directly (or any other community member) isn't a way  
> to  
> > build the community. Things need to be discussed in public whenever  
> > possible.  
> >  
> > Given the above, blaming a mentor (whomever you may be referring to)  
> > doesn't make sense.  
> >  
> > * We are ready to release version 0.2.0-incubating, the reason it took  
> us a  
> > > month to initiate the process is the above automated build, which I  
> > > suggested in prior discussion and had no rejections. We will complete  
> > this  
> > > once build is enabled.  
> > >  
> >  
> > The release itself is a great milestone, but not the purpose to itself.  
> >  
> >  
> > > * as for community growth, we are working with two organizations on  
> > running  
> > > POCs (which will hopefully grow the user base) one of them is due to  
> > start  
> > > very soon. I don't want to name them (first of all it's too early, and  
> > also  
> > > it is for them to decide if they want to share) but a representative  
> from  
> > > at least one of those organisations is on the list and is welcomed to  
> > share  
> > > :)  
> > >  
> >  
> > Great!  
> >  
> >  
> > > * This year I've seen contributions from 4 contributors (not much more  
> > than  
> > > 3, I know) but one of them is new (Guy Peleg) and AFAIK additional  
> > > longer-term work is done by one more contributor on his local fork  
> (Nadav  
> > > Har-Tzvi)  
> > >  
> >  
> > I think this is the crux of the problem. Why is longer-term work going on  
> > in a local fork?  
> >  
> >  
> > > * We should be presenting more, and growing the community more which is  
> > > hard to do starting out as a tiny community. Any advice given there  
> would  
> > > be appreciated.  
> > >  
> >  
> > The first thing has to be do the basics well: on-list communication, open  
> > discussions, no side channels, etc.  
> >  
> --  
> Yaniv Rodenski  
>  
> +61 477 778 405  
> ya...@shinto.io  
>  

Re: Project status

[Yaniv Rodenski]

Thanks Davor,

Points taken, we will learn and improve on those.

Just one clearification, I was not blaming the mentor I myself was more
focused on working with Guy on automating the build than following up.
Rereading my own response I can see that was unclear.


On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 at 11:02 am, Davor Bonaci  wrote:

> Thanks for a great response. Some comments inline.
>
> * In the last month we have been working on automating the release process
> > via Travis, we are still trying to enable Travis build for the Amaterasu
> > repo, which is taking ridiculously long. We need one of the mentors to
> just
> > enable it via their account (I've already talked a couple of times to one
> > of the mentors about it).
> >
>
> Searching for 'travis' in the mailing list archives doesn't yield any
> discussion threads.
>
> Mentors don't have permission to do this themselves. Infra JIRA is the way
> to do it, but I couldn't find such JIRA ticket filed.
>
> Emailing one mentor directly (or any other community member) isn't a way to
> build the community. Things need to be discussed in public whenever
> possible.
>
> Given the above, blaming a mentor (whomever you may be referring to)
> doesn't make sense.
>
> * We are ready to release version 0.2.0-incubating, the reason it took us a
> > month to initiate the process is the above automated build, which I
> > suggested in prior discussion and had no rejections. We will complete
> this
> > once build is enabled.
> >
>
> The release itself is a great milestone, but not the purpose to itself.
>
>
> > * as for community growth, we are working with two organizations on
> running
> > POCs (which will hopefully grow the user base) one of them is due to
> start
> > very soon. I don't want to name them (first of all it's too early, and
> also
> > it is for them to decide if they want to share) but a representative from
> > at least one of those organisations is on the list and is welcomed to
> share
> > :)
> >
>
> Great!
>
>
> > * This year I've seen contributions from 4 contributors (not much more
> than
> > 3, I know) but one of them is new (Guy Peleg) and AFAIK additional
> > longer-term work is done by one more contributor on his local fork (Nadav
> > Har-Tzvi)
> >
>
> I think this is the crux of the problem. Why is longer-term work going on
> in a local fork?
>
>
> > * We should be presenting more, and growing the community more which is
> > hard to do starting out as a tiny community. Any advice given there would
> > be appreciated.
> >
>
> The first thing has to be do the basics well: on-list communication, open
> discussions, no side channels, etc.
>
-- 
Yaniv Rodenski

+61 477 778 405
ya...@shinto.io

Re: Project status

[Davor Bonaci]

Thanks for a great response. Some comments inline.

* In the last month we have been working on automating the release process
> via Travis, we are still trying to enable Travis build for the Amaterasu
> repo, which is taking ridiculously long. We need one of the mentors to just
> enable it via their account (I've already talked a couple of times to one
> of the mentors about it).
>

Searching for 'travis' in the mailing list archives doesn't yield any
discussion threads.

Mentors don't have permission to do this themselves. Infra JIRA is the way
to do it, but I couldn't find such JIRA ticket filed.

Emailing one mentor directly (or any other community member) isn't a way to
build the community. Things need to be discussed in public whenever
possible.

Given the above, blaming a mentor (whomever you may be referring to)
doesn't make sense.

* We are ready to release version 0.2.0-incubating, the reason it took us a
> month to initiate the process is the above automated build, which I
> suggested in prior discussion and had no rejections. We will complete this
> once build is enabled.
>

The release itself is a great milestone, but not the purpose to itself.


> * as for community growth, we are working with two organizations on running
> POCs (which will hopefully grow the user base) one of them is due to start
> very soon. I don't want to name them (first of all it's too early, and also
> it is for them to decide if they want to share) but a representative from
> at least one of those organisations is on the list and is welcomed to share
> :)
>

Great!


> * This year I've seen contributions from 4 contributors (not much more than
> 3, I know) but one of them is new (Guy Peleg) and AFAIK additional
> longer-term work is done by one more contributor on his local fork (Nadav
> Har-Tzvi)
>

I think this is the crux of the problem. Why is longer-term work going on
in a local fork?


> * We should be presenting more, and growing the community more which is
> hard to do starting out as a tiny community. Any advice given there would
> be appreciated.
>

The first thing has to be do the basics well: on-list communication, open
discussions, no side channels, etc.

Re: Project status

[Yaniv Rodenski]

Hi Davor,

Fair points, with one of them we, can actually use some from mentors:

* In the last month we have been working on automating the release process
via Travis, we are still trying to enable Travis build for the Amaterasu
repo, which is taking ridiculously long. We need one of the mentors to just
enable it via their account (I've already talked a couple of times to one
of the mentors about it).

as for some of the other points:
* We are ready to release version 0.2.0-incubating, the reason it took us a
month to initiate the process is the above automated build, which I
suggested in prior discussion and had no rejections. We will complete this
once build is enabled.
* as for community growth, we are working with two organizations on running
POCs (which will hopefully grow the user base) one of them is due to start
very soon. I don't want to name them (first of all it's too early, and also
it is for them to decide if they want to share) but a representative from
at least one of those organisations is on the list and is welcomed to share
:)
* This year I've seen contributions from 4 contributors (not much more than
3, I know) but one of them is new (Guy Peleg) and AFAIK additional
longer-term work is done by one more contributor on his local fork (Nadav
Har-Tzvi)
* We should be presenting more, and growing the community more which is
hard to do starting out as a tiny community. Any advice given there would
be appreciated.

Last I think that while I've been in touch with most if not all contributors,
@Davors email is a good wakeup call that we should be much more
communicative with our work and that is probably a lot we can improve on.

Cheers,
Yaniv

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone --
> I'd like to start a thread to discuss the project status and the progress
> made over the last 6 months.
>
> Very superficially, here are some ballpark, non-scientific statistics:
>
> * 1 (non auto-generated) email thread on dev@ per month. The last (only?)
> non-report discussion was on January 1, nearly 3 months ago.
> * 13 lifetime pull requests
> * 18 lifetime JIRA issues
> * 3 contributors this year
> * No evidence of community growth
> * Little (visible) progress on the first release
>
> I'd say we are not on the right path towards a successful open source
> project, and graduation from Incubator seems hard right now.
>
> I know this may be difficult, but I think it is better to talk about these
> things openly and investigate what can be done and/or whether the project
> would be better served as a standalone project in GitHub.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Davor
>



-- 
Yaniv Rodenski

+61 477 778 405
ya...@shinto.io

Project status

[Davor Bonaci]

Hi everyone --
I'd like to start a thread to discuss the project status and the progress
made over the last 6 months.

Very superficially, here are some ballpark, non-scientific statistics:

* 1 (non auto-generated) email thread on dev@ per month. The last (only?)
non-report discussion was on January 1, nearly 3 months ago.
* 13 lifetime pull requests
* 18 lifetime JIRA issues
* 3 contributors this year
* No evidence of community growth
* Little (visible) progress on the first release

I'd say we are not on the right path towards a successful open source
project, and graduation from Incubator seems hard right now.

I know this may be difficult, but I think it is better to talk about these
things openly and investigate what can be done and/or whether the project
would be better served as a standalone project in GitHub.

Thoughts?

Davor