Re: A Decision on Jisp
Vadim Gritsenko wrote: I'll repeat Bertrand's "huh?". Unless you see [VOTE] on this list with everybody sending theirs "+1", nothing said here is final. Meanining, everything Steve said have lots of room for compromise. ;-) Ah! Thank you for the clarification. Steve made some absolute pronouncements; he uses phrases like "we" in his statements, suggesting that he speaks for the group as a whole. I'm glad that's cleared up! I like compromise. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: A Decision on Jisp
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: huh? Unless I missed something (it's this age thing, I'm no college kid either ;-), we're just evaluating options, aren't we? Steve Noel has stated that Jisp can not remain a part of Apache Cocoon, in any form, unless I either change the license or assimilate Jisp into Apache. Steve hasn't left any room for compromise. Recent talks seem to show that Jisp is a bit overpowered for our Store, in which case it might be a good time to move to something simpler yet good enough. I agree, actually, that Jisp may be over-powered for your needs. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: A Decision on Jisp
Steven Noels wrote: IMHO, I think you are overreacting a bit. Your are telling me what I can write on my web site, and trying to rewrite history. Such things irritate me, and are not in the spirit of cooperation. I'm just not entirely sure that it is in the interest of our users to depend on a single-person-managed fork of an old version of Jisp, although your kind offer is appreciated and dully noted. Another possibility is to maintain that fork ourselves, but we have to await the result of that thread for that. Suffice to say that we had issues with single-person-efforts in the past, and we don't want to be bitten again. So the issue is not the GPL, but the fact that I am not willing to be assimilated by the Apache collective. I offered to support and join a collective effort to integrate an older version of Jisp into Apache. Now, granted, I'm not even certain you have any reason to be using Jisp in the first place; it seems that you have many alternatives that would suit your purposes. However, if you *do* decide you want to "fork" Jisp from the 2.x codebase, I'd be more than happy to help out. How, exactly, am I being unreasonable? ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: [RT] rethinking the cache storage system
Hunsberger, Peter wrote: I think that a better use of the file system would yield much more performance, since JVM IO is pretty much optimized for file access anyway (and uses OS-level caching). Makes sense to me: from what I understand of the issue the store is (mostly?) not updatable (you either do a write or a read)? If so you don't need a database; file systems are actually very efficient for that kind of thing... I don't understand why you're using Jisp, either. It would seemt o be very slow for your needs, forcing things to be serialized in and out of a datastore. When I've written cache system, I've always used the file system directly. The only catch is that some operating systems limit the number of files on disk or in a directory; a very active server could hit those limits using individual files. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: A Decision on Jisp
Scott Robert Ladd wrote: SN> As suggested previously: could you please remove the ASF link from SN> the Jisp page? SRL> That seems like a rather petty request, given that Jisp *is* currently SRL> in use by many (most?) Cocoon implementations. SN> I wouldn't call it "petty", rather "logical" - but I will leave the SN> uptake of this suggestion up to your own judgement. We went at great SN> length to treat you and your personal ambitions with care and respect. SN> We now politely ask for a favor in return. If you wish top rewrite history, I suggest inventing a time machine, going back several years, and rewriting Cocoon so that it never used Jisp. If you are not capable of doing that, we must exist within the existing timeline in which Jisp was (and still is) used by Apache. Or are your somehow going to make Jisp vanish from all the existing Cocoon installations? I will rewrite my web site to reflect the eventual removal of Jips from Cocoon, since you have patently refused my offer to help maintain a fork of older code, specific to Apacghe. My offers of cooperation have been met with absolute "Our way, or the highway." Sheesh... my typing goes to heck when I'm annoyed. ;) Please excuse the typos above. -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: A Decision on Jisp
SN> As suggested previously: could you please remove the ASF link from SN> the Jisp page? SRL> That seems like a rather petty request, given that Jisp *is* currently SRL> in use by many (most?) Cocoon implementations. SN> I wouldn't call it "petty", rather "logical" - but I will leave the SN> uptake of this suggestion up to your own judgement. We went at great SN> length to treat you and your personal ambitions with care and respect. SN> We now politely ask for a favor in return. If you wish top rewrite history, I suggest inventing a time machine, going back several years, and rewriting Cocoon so that it never used Jisp. If you are not capable of doing that, we must exist within the existing timeline in which Jisp was (and still is) used by Apache. Or are your somehow going to make Jisp vanish from all the existing Cocoon installations? I will rewrite my web site to reflect the eventual removal of Jips from Cocoon, since you have patently refused my offer to help maintain a fork of older code, specific to Apacghe. My offers of cooperation have been met with absolute "Our way, or the highway." ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: [RT] rethinking the cache storage system
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: We were using Jisp and Scott's decision makes it clear that we either: - have to maintain Jisp 2.x ourselves No. I have stated that I am more than willing to maintain and support Jisp 2.x, under the libpng license, specifically for Cocoon. I am not willing to relicense Jisp 3.0.0. In other words, Apache Cocoon could have its own fork of Jisp (from the 2.x source base), perhaps under another name, for its own purposes. I'd even be willing to donate such a version into the Apache community. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: A Decision on Jisp
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: thanks much for your time and consideration too. We all appreciated the fact that you came here, listened to us and pondered. Your dicision forces us to change course of action, but you have the freedom to choose your path and so do we. As long as mutual respect and freedom is intact, nothing is compromised (at least, that's how I personally see this). Well, that's how I see it, too, and I'm glad to see that some members of Cocoon can pleasantly agree to disagree. Good luck for your ventures. And good luck to Apache Cocoon, too. -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: A Decision on Jisp
Steven Noels wrote: As suggested previously: could you please remove the ASF link from the Jisp page? That seems like a rather petty request, given that Jisp *is* currently in use by many (most?) Cocoon implementations. I'm in the process of writing a much larger, public article regarding this discussion, and I will likely change my web site to reflect what the future holds. The wording is likely to be something like: "For several years, the Apache project used Jisp; that will no longer be the case, as the Apache Cocoon group is replacing Jisp due a conflict between the Apache license and the GNU General Public License (GPL). You can find my take on recent licensing conflicts (which extend far beyond my own little corner of the universe) in A Matter of License." The change will be made later this week, when I finish my article on licenses. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
A Decision on Jisp
Hello, Thank you for the kind and intelligent responses I've received from members of this group. I appreciate and support what the Apache project is trying to accomplish, and I admire its sense of community. I consider programming to be as much art as science, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that I draw analogies between my work and my wife's more traditional artistic efforts. Maria does art for her employer, at the direction of clients, in a collaborative environment; she also produces her own drawings and paintings, on her own time, to her own designs, for independent sale. The collaborative model shares the burdens and benefits across several people, at the cost of artistic freedom; her personal art is a pure expression of her vision. The models complement each other. Over the decades, I've worked on many collaborative projects, both professionally and in the free/open source community; I also produce my own software, independent of anyone else. The two models complement each other. Jisp is an example of a personal, non-collaborative project. While it has not made me rich, it has attracted a significant amount of business. As of version 3.0.0, I've relicensed Jisp under dual GPL and commercial licenses, which has placed it in conflict with Apache's license. Cocoon (and perhaps others parts of apache) use Jisp to a limited extent, and it has been suggested that I add Jisp to the Apache collective, or, at the very least, relicense it to eliminate the GPL conflict. Jisp's license scheme will remain intact, for now. The model I'm using has been successful for myself and others. Identifying Jisp solely with Apache would, I believe, limit its scope and my freedom to develop it as I see fit. As I've stated before, I am willing to work with Apache, perhaps reworking older versions of Jisp that were released under a libpng-style license. Or I could create a striiped-down variant of Jisp that is specific to the needs of Apache. Cocoon is only one project that uses Jisp; I do not think it serves my userbase by focusing on Cocoon's needs. Nor do I see Jisp as an absolutely essential part of Cocoon; people seem to have already decided on its replacement, and, even in it's current usage, Jisp is a small, optional, and obscure part of Coccon. Adding Jisp to the Apache collective would raise my profile in certain quarters; however, I don't think this is very pertinent to my business, given that my professional focus is not on web services or application servers. Other projects offer more exposure to my desired audience. Having limited resources, I must pick my contributions carefully. Apache is a fine project, and its goals are worthy; if there is some way I can contribute to Apache -- without compromising my other interests -- I will be eager to do so. But at this time, my energies are focused elsewhere. Thank you for your time and consideration; I hope we can find a way to work together in the future. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: Of One-man Efforts and the like
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: I sincerely apologize if anything I've written came across as unrespectful or if you perceived that I put words in your mouth: it was not my intent to offend you or to spoil a fight. Apology accepted. I just wanted to tell you our story and offer some help in case you want it. That's all. And I appreciate the story. It helps me see where and if I fit into the Apache picture. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: Of One-man Efforts and the like
out the needs of working programmers. Apache appears to have its heart in the right place. Of course, at that point, even protected, this won't solve your marketing for you or the way you sell yourself to companies. In short, you are on your own for that and you can be successful or suck. We have examples of both kinds in the ASF. But again, going the GPL way will lock you out of the ASF world, this means loosing all the visibility you had before. I'm not certain how "visible" I am in the "ASF world." You and others point out that Jisp is a rather obscure, hidden, and easily-replacable component of some parts of Apache; that doesn't sound like much "visibility" to me. To attain visibility in Apache, I would need to do something more tha Jisp, I suspect. And so the question becomes: Is there something (beyond Jisp) that I can contribute, and will my increased "visibility" attract customers who need my skills? That is the debate I'm having with myself this weekend. At the same time, you could find lots of reasonable people with very much in common with you that might help you in many ways in case you feel like joining forces. I am very fond of the idea of community, in programming and other tasks. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: Of One-man Efforts and the like
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: there are many ways to describe the spirit of the apache community, but there is one that I like more than all the others: "we care about people more than we care about code". Well then, we are on the same philosophical ground! :) Now. You, as the author and copyright holder, have the freedom to modify licensing at any time and for whatever reason. Here, nobody will tell you what's good or bad for you, you know that better than we all do. As I said in another message, I'm going to ponder the issues (again) this weekend. I appreciate the detailed responses, though. Now for apache pretending and not giving back. telnet www.coyotegulch.com 80 Trying 64.70.152.229... Connected to coyotegulch.com. Escape character is '^]'. HEAD / HTTP/1.0 HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:11:31 GMT Server: Apache Connection: close Content-Type: text/html Point taken, though given the complexity of my personal website, I could probably use just about any web server. I don't do much server-side work anymore; my specialty is high-performance and numeric applications. I suspect Apache has more than its share of experts on parallel coding and optimization... That given, I'll consider what everyone's said. I'll do a bit more research and thinking. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: The (new) Jisp 3.0 license
I'm going to consider some of the philosophical ramification this weekend; I have a 3.1 version of Jisp in the Wings, and I can always relicense it. One issue that I did want to address: Steven Noels wrote: I'm intrigued though by the questions you receive about Jisp from the Apache side: do these originate from Cocoon users? While Jisp is considered a core (though switchable) part of Cocoon (it's the default of two cache implementations), its existence is shielded from the passing eye of a normal user. Also, we would expect that Jisp issues within Cocoon would be reported on the Cocoon lists, which happens, but not regularly enough to suspect people to come and nag you directly. Or is it because of other ASF projects using Jisp? I don't know the precise origin (within the Apache framework) of the questions; I do know that, since last fall, three separate companies contacted me about Jisp, based on their discovery of it in the Apache code base. In one case, the company paid me a small amount to help them try to win a contract with a Big Bank; their bid failed, though not due to Jisp. They used Jisp for a purpose similar to that of Cocoon. The other two companies approached me with similar propisitions; for some reason both were incapable of some rather simple extensions of Jisp required for their own commercial projects. Since both were in a rush, and I'm always looking to make new customers, I jumped in and wrote what they asked for; neither paid me, and one was quite rude about the affair. After the above experiences, I relicensed Jisp under the GPL. I am open to being convinced that another license would be more beneficial. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: Of One-man Efforts and the like
Hunsberger, Peter wrote: Fair enough; reading between the lines, I guess you're partly saying that prior versions of Jisp weren't robust enough to be readily adopted by a community? Jisp began life as an accidental product. People found it in my books, and asked to license it. The book code was demonstrative; it had never been tested. Over the course of several years, I patched the code as best I could, but finally decided that the underlying core had serious flaws. Thus I did a major rewrite used by my few commercial customers, but not released as free code. As I've moved away from writing books (too much work for too little money), Jisp has taken on a new role as an advertisement. As such, I released the commercial version as free software (version 3.0), under the GPL and commercial license to emphasize that this is a product and not some hobbiest's weekend hack. Wish I could put my money where my mouth is on this issue (so to speak); at this point I have to drop out of the discussion... As is usual in life, the best people tend to have the least money. :) I would *love* to spend time working on projects like Apache -- but I haven't the luxury of free time. Do I think people can make money from working on free software? Certainly -- my primary contract right now is to write free software for a big British company (heh, they're outsourcing to America). And while money is nice, I'm also willing to consider various designs for mutually-beneficial arrangements. -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: Jisp 3.0 moved to GPL licence
On 20.02.2004 12:25, Antonio Gallardo wrote: AFAIK, we must move away from jisp. That was an ugly move! :-( I intended no ugliness; I never even considered that Apache would be offended by my change in license. When I used libpng, I had people complaining I wasn't using GPL; when I use the GPL, people complain that I should use something else. I'm sure you can understand this, given the current controversy over changes in Apache's license. I'm willing to work with Apache on this issue, so how am I being ugly? ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: Of One-man Efforts and the like
Hunsberger, Peter wrote: I think you miss the issue here: there's certainly no equivalency between "one-man-effort" and "open source". This last week has seen some intense license conflicts between very large open source projects: XFree86, Apache, and FSF/GNU have all made choices that have lead to (or could lead to) changes in various distributions. Changing licenses is not merely the province of "one man" operations. It seems that on one hand you complain that you can't afford the time to provide free support for everyone using Jisp, then on the other you want people to accept code that has only you supporting it. One reason for Jisp 3.0, by the way, was to reduce my support load. The old version of Jisp was not "robust", to use a marketroid term. The solution to your (and the Cocoon communities) dilemma is not to have a restrictive license (as I think you agree), or to accept "one-man-efforts", but rather, to have a community supporting the code. Once you have a community supporting the code you will personally no longer be "pestered" to provide free support. (OTOH, as one of the primary developers of the code base you will be seen as having value for anyone willing to put up consultant dollars) Perhaps. Now, exactly, how you go about building a community is another question. But, it seems that perhaps some of the Cocoon project members might be willing to help? I'm open to concrete suggestions. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Of One-man Efforts and the like
After looking at the archives of recent messages, I decided to join this group for a short time, given that my work is being discussed. As a matter of clarification: Jisp is not a database, it is a embedded engine that can be used to *create* databases. I found this quote rather interesting: > FWIW: I think we should actively weed out one-man-effort dependencies. > People have the freedom to change their mind, but we shouldn't be a > victim of that. Change the words "one-man" to "open source", and see how it reads. I've been in on debates about whether or not to use "open source" code... I suggest the Apache might want to take the high road here, and judge matters based on quality and applicability, not broad prejudices. As I stated before, I'm willing to provide Apache with a specific license if it makes everyone's life easier. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: The (new) Jisp 3.0 license
he same. This is bad since we, apart from some small issues, were quite happy with Jisp and had no technical reason to move away. And since we are a volunteer organization, things we are forced to do are always much harder than things we like to work on - I'm sure you understand that. As I've said, I'm not a greedy person; I'm willing tio resolve the issue by giving Apache a unique license that eliminates the contention. Let me know what your requirements are; I can allow Apache to continue using Jisp under the libpng-style license, for example. Perhaps Apache's developers could consider ways in which you could respond in kind? If not in money, then perhaps in other ways. In particular, it needs to be made very clear to Apache's users that they can not expect (or demand) free support for Jisp from me. I simply can't afford it. Adding onto that, we saw ample reference being made on http://www.coyotegulch.com/jisp/index.html to the Apache project. It's a bit awkward to see us being used as a reference "customer" case, while at the same time being made impossible to use your library. I wouldn't say "ample reference"; a couple of links is about all. It's not like I make any claim to being part of the Apache project, nor have I received a single commercial client via my tangental association with Apache. The main reason I list Apache by name is that my commercial applications of Jisp are covered by various non-disclosure agreements; it's nice to associate with a name that people recognize. If you strenuously object, I'll be more than happy to remove the association. I think we can work this out to everyone's satisfaction. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
Re: The (new) Jisp 3.0 license
jects which use Jisp will be forced to do the same. This is bad since we, apart from some small issues, were quite happy with Jisp and had no technical reason to move away. And since we are a volunteer organization, things we are forced to do are always much harder than things we like to work on - I'm sure you understand that. As I've said, I'm not a greedy person; I'm willing tio resolve the issue by giving Apache a unique license that eliminates the contention. Let me know what your requirements are; I can allow Apache to continue using Jisp under the libpng-style license, for example. Perhaps Apache's developers could consider ways in which you could respond in kind? If not in money, then perhaps in other ways. In particular, it needs to be made very clear to Apache's users that they can not expect (or demand) free support for Jisp from me. I simply can't afford it. Adding onto that, we saw ample reference being made on http://www.coyotegulch.com/jisp/index.html to the Apache project. It's a bit awkward to see us being used as a reference "customer" case, while at the same time being made impossible to use your library. I wouldn't say "ample reference"; a couple of links is about all. It's not like I make any claim to being part of the Apache project, nor have I received a single commercial client via my tangental association with Apache. The main reason I list Apache by name is that my commercial applications of Jisp are covered by various non-disclosure agreements; it's nice to associate with a name that people recognize. If you strenuously object, I'll be more than happy to remove the association. I think we can work this out to everyone's satisfaction. ..Scott -- Scott Robert Ladd Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com) Software Invention for High-Performance Computing
