Re: [HEADS-UP] IRC support? (was: Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org)
Le 9 oct. 05, à 00:39, Antonio Gallardo a écrit : ...I though we were against providing IRC support... I don't think we can be against someone giving answers there - but it would be cool, when people find solutions via IRC (or any other media ), to post them on the lists or on the wiki. -Bertrand
[HEADS-UP] IRC support? (was: Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org)
Christoph Hermann wrote: And hey, you get really good support on IRC when you have enough time to wait :) I though we were against providing IRC support. Because it is exactly the same as providing private support. We find your self giving the same answer over and over, no archives and so on. Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo.
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users cocoon.apache.org
Joerg Heinicke wrote: Though I am one of those persons reading both lists regularly I don't like the idea of merging the lists. +1 Me too. I wonder why some committers unsubscribed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remember that everybody once was a newbie. Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo.
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
> In my experience, it doesn't matter which list I ask for help on,> it still gets ignored. That sounds really frustrated.Sorry about that. My experience (although probably not objectively realistic, and biased by bad experiences) is that my first request for help is usually answered, even by a few people, but without fully solving the problem (blame me: my first post contains most certainly insufficient information), and the second round is unanswered. So I usually get insightful answers which help me continue my research (good), but that does not necessarily means the problem is solved (bad). At most, what I tend to get is a kind of "workaround" (not too bad, but could be better). Maybe it just did not ringa bell when people read it. That's the strange point about my feeling. It seems to ring the bell the first time, but not loud enough to follow up. In the end it probably comesdown to how much time a developercan spend on tracking down the bug you are seeing.If you can reduce that timeyou are more likely to get ananswer. I try, but it is not always easy, if you don't have enough knowledge about internals. OTOH, I know many users (myself included) seldom try to help others, probably because of lack of time. But if users don't have time, why should developers?-- Antonio
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
you want to reduce that count, I am still interested in hints on - why I'm getting "Attempted to release a $Proxy20 but its handler could not be located." messages in my logs. [1] - why the ComponentManager appears to be null in my transformers' (SitemapComponentTestCase subclass) unit tests but not my actions'. [2] In my experience, it doesn't matter which list I ask for help on, it still gets ignored. That sounds really frustrated. Sorry about that. Or maybe it's just me. Maybe it just did not ring a bell when people read it. Being a developer does not necessarily mean having the answer right away. In the end it probably comes down to how much time a developer can spend on tracking down the bug you are seeing. If you can reduce that time you are more likely to get an answer. Just my 2 cents cheers -- Torsten PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Le 6 oct. 05, à 10:04, Torsten Curdt a écrit : ...Let's better have a few more developer subscribed to users again Yes, after this discussion I think it's good enough - and I like the idea of filtering both lists to the same folder in my mail client, so as not to overlook user's messages. I'll try that! -Bertrand
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Too bad you cannot cross-post between the two lists, that alone could have made things easier. The developer list should receive mails also from the user list with [Users] prepended. In this way developers get user mails, but users don't need to read all the longwinding discussions about internals (which tend to frighten some). TBH I think forwarding the mails from users to dev is nothing but saying developers have to be subscribed to users. Whether forcing this is a good or a bad idea is a different thing ...but I am still in favor of *not* forwarding. I don't really see the point of it. Let's better have a few more developer subscribed to users again. cheers -- Torsten PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
From: Jorg Heymans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 11:06:17 +0200 Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > (snip) You are trying to remedy the fact that many developers (not all of them) don't look at [EMAIL PROTECTED] I say those developers need to change their view/attitude towards user@ and realize that replying to a "HELP: No pipeline matched blabla !!!" post benefits cocoon as much as (for example) fleshing out the next gen container architecture. Splitting up mailinglists works for other OS projects because either 1) they have a self sustaining user list with a lot of advanced users willing to help out eg Spring forums 2) the developers *actively* help out on every post eg maven-users A rough count shows that of the 200 threads in september, about 35 were 1-post threads ie remained unanswered. If you want to reduce that count, I am still interested in hints on - why I'm getting "Attempted to release a $Proxy20 but its handler could not be located." messages in my logs. [1] - why the ComponentManager appears to be null in my transformers' (SitemapComponentTestCase subclass) unit tests but not my actions'. [2] In my experience, it doesn't matter which list I ask for help on, it still gets ignored. Or maybe it's just me. Perhaps I should suggest dropping support for JDK 1.4, or migrating the entire architecture to be picocontainer-based instead of OSGi on the grounds that more people have heard of it. Judging by recent traffic, that ought to send my mailbox over quota in next to no time :-) Andrew. [1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-users&m=112170400821522&w=2 [2] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-users&m=112601358928679&w=2
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Thomas Lutz schrieb: Hello list, > Although I am not sure wether I know how this framework works yet :-), I > am quite sure the drop in traffic has a lot to do with it. So +1 for me. > Where are the new users that start with cocoon ? I think, whoever starts > with cocoon has enough "webexperience" to first search the > mailarchives... and most answers are there now.. There are 'some' users questions on IRC freenode/#cocoon and some xml-channels too and there are also some bulletin boards out there where one talks about cocoon. Imho the problem with cocoon is the high learning curve at the beginning (i faced this problem too), but it gets more and more fun when you know more ;). I would not join the two lists together because users would get all the bugzilla-posts, "offtopic", etc. discussions which would confuse beginners (like me when i started). It would be better to copy the users-posts to the dev-list if its too complicated for the dev's to subscribe to the users-list ;-) And hey, you get really good support on IRC when you have enough time to wait :) Just my 2cents Christoph
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Mark Lundquist wrote: On Oct 4, 2005, at 8:51 AM, JD Daniels wrote: I figured out how to use it, I am off making my own POJO's to plug into the basic cocoon install I have settled on. I have a suspicion that the drop in traffic is attributable to this - users simply evolve. The questions I have to ask now (As opposed to when I started with cocoon) simply can't be answered by the other new people on users@ Absolutely true in my case as well. —ml— Although I am not sure wether I know how this framework works yet :-), I am quite sure the drop in traffic has a lot to do with it. So +1 for me. Where are the new users that start with cocoon ? I think, whoever starts with cocoon has enough "webexperience" to first search the mailarchives... and most answers are there now.. tom
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
On Oct 4, 2005, at 8:51 AM, JD Daniels wrote: I figured out how to use it, I am off making my own POJO's to plug into the basic cocoon install I have settled on. I have a suspicion that the drop in traffic is attributable to this - users simply evolve. The questions I have to ask now (As opposed to when I started with cocoon) simply can't be answered by the other new people on users@ Absolutely true in my case as well. —ml—
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Geert Josten wrote: ... Too bad you cannot cross-post between the two lists, that alone could have made things easier. The developer list should receive mails also from the user list with [Users] prepended. In this way developers get user mails, but users don't need to read all the longwinding discussions about internals (which tend to frighten some). -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) -
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
I'd like to chime in here. Your points make perfect sense, But as a user ( I say user because cocoon internals are beyond my capability/time constraints to figure out) I get stuck with a "WTF" moment, struggle, struggle, struggle, Email users@, wait maybe 3-4 days, rewrite the mail because maybe I'm not being clear on my problem, ask again, wait a few more days, then mail the dev list. Answer usually shows up in 6-8 hours ( I think because I am in western Canada, and you all are asleep when I mail :) ) I have all these messages in the same mail folder, and I am just as bad about reading the user list and answering the questions I am able to. The first 2 years were, basically, hell. But once I figured out the basics, I find my self not reading the list so much, and just emptying the folder when I hit about 2000 messages (Pausing on the usually very interesting [RT]'s ) because everything works now - I figured out how to use it, I am off making my own POJO's to plug into the basic cocoon install I have settled on. I have a suspicion that the drop in traffic is attributable to this - users simply evolve. The questions I have to ask now (As opposed to when I started with cocoon) simply can't be answered by the other new people on users@ I think consolidating the two lists would be very helpful because it will be a single resource we all would use. Maybe I am talking out my *** , but there's my thoughts. JD Sylvain Wallez wrote: Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: In these days of wild thoughts, here's another one: how about closing the users@ list and having just one list for cocoon-related discussions? I think I have a few good reasons for this: One: The line between cocoon users and developers is fairly thin, it is not as in Open Office for example, where most users do not even know what the C language is. Our users are more and more competent software developers who would often have interesting things to say if they were around, and might like this place more if they felt more involved. Cocoon has been finding its niche as a tool for serious application developers, as opposed to a press-button publishing tool, which it has never been and will never be. Two: my guess is that many dev@ subscribers could answer some users@ questions very quickly, but sometimes we don't bother looking at the list, and some of us are probably not even subscribed there. It's a waste of energy, and has probably caused otherwise competent people to go away after not getting good enough answers. Three: dev@ subscribers tend to use good messages subjects and [TOPIC MARKERS] in subject lines to make the lists easy to filter, visually or automatically. So I'm not worried about the increased traffic, we'll find a way to make it sortable by teaching our community about good subject lines or defining a few more [markers]. Okay, this is not really a *reason*, but it's needed for my argumentation ;-D Four: for many subjects one does not know on which list to post, again a waste of energy as threads regulary bounce between the lists. We developers tend to discuss between ourselves things that are of general interest, without bothering to move to users@ as it's not "our home". Five: having two lists, one for Highly Qualified Meritocratic Core Developers and another for Mere Users does not sound like the openness and flat structure that we're advocating (I'm being a bit provocative here, on purpose ;-) Six; the closing down of the docs@ list has only been positive, by defragmenting the community w.r.t docs and allowing all developers to be informed of what's happening with the [docs] (hint: note the good use of the [marker]). Seven: Having a single point of discussion will help us know our users better, this alone is worth its weight in bytes. So, WDYT? I don't have that many reasons, but I don't think this is a good idea: One: Marketing wise, this will be a very bad sign, and would give to the outside world the impression that the Cocoon acceptance has shrunk so much than two lists are too much. And although traffic has dropped, we're far from that. Two: Cocoon-dev is scary for newbies, or even intermediate users. Disruptive random thoughts, design discussions about the very deep guts of the engine, etc. Some of my colleague, which I consider advanced users sometimes tell me they don't understand what the heck I'm talking about in some of my posts. If we want more people to come to Cocoon, exposing them to the dev's foolish discussions will just make them turn away. Now you're right that some developers neglect users@ (yeah, I'm in this category). This used to be because of the huge traffic. In my Thunderbird, users@ is deep down in the lists I read through news.gmane.org. That's a bad thing and I will now use a regular mail subscription so that it sits just beside the dev@ folder that I monitor every 5 minutes. And I strongly invite other devs in the s
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
For a very long time now, I have been subscribed to both lists, and have my rule put them all in the same mail folder. :) This is a good idea IMHO JD Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: In these days of wild thoughts, here's another one: how about closing the users@ list and having just one list for cocoon-related discussions? I think I have a few good reasons for this: One: The line between cocoon users and developers is fairly thin, it is not as in Open Office for example, where most users do not even know what the C language is. Our users are more and more competent software developers who would often have interesting things to say if they were around, and might like this place more if they felt more involved. Cocoon has been finding its niche as a tool for serious application developers, as opposed to a press-button publishing tool, which it has never been and will never be. Two: my guess is that many dev@ subscribers could answer some users@ questions very quickly, but sometimes we don't bother looking at the list, and some of us are probably not even subscribed there. It's a waste of energy, and has probably caused otherwise competent people to go away after not getting good enough answers. Three: dev@ subscribers tend to use good messages subjects and [TOPIC MARKERS] in subject lines to make the lists easy to filter, visually or automatically. So I'm not worried about the increased traffic, we'll find a way to make it sortable by teaching our community about good subject lines or defining a few more [markers]. Okay, this is not really a *reason*, but it's needed for my argumentation ;-D Four: for many subjects one does not know on which list to post, again a waste of energy as threads regulary bounce between the lists. We developers tend to discuss between ourselves things that are of general interest, without bothering to move to users@ as it's not "our home". Five: having two lists, one for Highly Qualified Meritocratic Core Developers and another for Mere Users does not sound like the openness and flat structure that we're advocating (I'm being a bit provocative here, on purpose ;-) Six; the closing down of the docs@ list has only been positive, by defragmenting the community w.r.t docs and allowing all developers to be informed of what's happening with the [docs] (hint: note the good use of the [marker]). Seven: Having a single point of discussion will help us know our users better, this alone is worth its weight in bytes. So, WDYT? -Bertrand
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Jorg Heymans wrote: Splitting up mailinglists works for other OS projects because either 1) they have a self sustaining user list with a lot of advanced users willing to help out eg Spring forums 2) the developers *actively* help out on every post eg maven-users As an active Cocoon user I agree with Jorg on this one. I personally think that we should maintain the two lists, but get more active committers on the user list. I guess that if cocoon had up to date documentation it would be less necessary, but that's not the case right now. It would also be nice to be able to add comments to pieces of documentation, so users can add usefull information to certain subjects. Sometimes I'm reading posts on the dev-list that make completely no sense to me. I've been working with cocoon for 2 years now so I can imagine that for somebody who is new to cocoon those subjects are pretty scary and maybe create the idea that cocoon is very hard to understand. Well the good side to Stefano's email is that it's getting everybody focussed (especially everybody on the dev-list). I think this will give us enough to talk about the next couple of days. For those comming to the hackathon or GT. See you tomorrow, thursday or friday! Jeroen
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users cocoon.apache.org
Niclas Hedhman hedhman.org> writes: > I am also against "user" list. It has a degenerating tone to it, and the > fact that many developers are not subscribed to user seems to promote > that notion further. Nah! I don't think that's true. This has nothing to do with a bad tone. It's just Apache style to start as user. Cocoon should not start to break ranks. > 1. Rename the list "support " or some similarly positive term. This does not lead to anything. I even have a more negative touch from this word than with "users". It completely decouples from the community aspect and leads to a more commercial tendency: Asking for support. This will lead fast to questions like "My I ask this or that on this list?" as the user community aspect is not matched by the name. Jörg
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > I think I have a few good reasons for this: > > One: The line between cocoon users and developers is fairly thin, it is > not as in Open Office for example, where most users do not even know > what the C language is. Our users are more and more competent software > developers who would often have interesting things to say if they were > around, and might like this place more if they felt more involved. > Cocoon has been finding its niche as a tool for serious application > developers, as opposed to a press-button publishing tool, which it has > never been and will never be. > > Two: my guess is that many dev@ subscribers could answer some users@ > questions very quickly, but sometimes we don't bother looking at the > list, and some of us are probably not even subscribed there. It's a > waste of energy, and has probably caused otherwise competent people to > go away after not getting good enough answers. > > Three: dev@ subscribers tend to use good messages subjects and [TOPIC > MARKERS] in subject lines to make the lists easy to filter, visually or > automatically. So I'm not worried about the increased traffic, we'll > find a way to make it sortable by teaching our community about good > subject lines or defining a few more [markers]. Okay, this is not > really a *reason*, but it's needed for my argumentation ;-D > > Four: for many subjects one does not know on which list to post, again a > waste of energy as threads regulary bounce between the lists. We > developers tend to discuss between ourselves things that are of general > interest, without bothering to move to users@ as it's not "our home". > > Five: having two lists, one for Highly Qualified Meritocratic Core > Developers and another for Mere Users does not sound like the openness > and flat structure that we're advocating (I'm being a bit provocative > here, on purpose ;-) > > Six; the closing down of the docs@ list has only been positive, by > defragmenting the community w.r.t docs and allowing all developers to be > informed of what's happening with the [docs] (hint: note the good use of > the [marker]). > > Seven: Having a single point of discussion will help us know our users > better, this alone is worth its weight in bytes. > You are trying to remedy the fact that many developers (not all of them) don't look at [EMAIL PROTECTED] I say those developers need to change their view/attitude towards user@ and realize that replying to a "HELP: No pipeline matched blabla !!!" post benefits cocoon as much as (for example) fleshing out the next gen container architecture. Splitting up mailinglists works for other OS projects because either 1) they have a self sustaining user list with a lot of advanced users willing to help out eg Spring forums 2) the developers *actively* help out on every post eg maven-users A rough count shows that of the 200 threads in september, about 35 were 1-post threads ie remained unanswered. Let's discuss this further at the Hackathon, I need to catch my train :-) Jorg
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users cocoon.apache.org
Sylvain Wallez apache.org> writes: > > how about closing > > the users list and having just one list for cocoon-related > > discussions? > > > > So, WDYT? > > Two: Cocoon-dev is scary for newbies, or even intermediate users. > Disruptive random thoughts, design discussions about the very deep guts > of the engine, etc. Some of my colleague, which I consider advanced > users sometimes tell me they don't understand what the heck I'm talking > about in some of my posts. If we want more people to come to Cocoon, > exposing them to the dev's foolish discussions will just make them turn > away. That are exactly my thoughts. We even talked about splitting Cocoon GetTogether into two tracks for beginners and advanced users, but on the list we shall merge them together? Furthermore if you talk about prefixing the threads appropriately to get the threads separated again on the client also enables the possibility to ignore user threads and just read dev threads (though it is easier to switch to user threads coincidentally). > Now you're right that some developers neglect users (yeah, I'm in this > category). This used to be because of the huge traffic. In my > Thunderbird, users is deep down in the lists I read through > news.gmane.org. That's a bad thing and I will now use a regular mail > subscription so that it sits just beside the dev folder that I monitor > every 5 minutes. And I strongly invite other devs in the same situation > as me to do so. And here we have the real problem you try to solve with your proposal, but IMO it can not work this way: the bad attitude towards the users list. But such a thing you can not enforce. It is a community thing. Though I am one of those persons reading both lists regularly I don't like the idea of merging the lists. Jörg
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Mark Leicester wrote: Hi all, When we discussed the issue of declining posts to the users list earlier this year (http://www.planetcocoon.com/node/1755 - the trend was visible back then too), I suggested interviewing subscribers about "what they want, what they don't like, their level of expertise, etc.". At that point (in May) people were fairly cool on the idea (e.g. "no, thanks. I really don't see any problem in cocoon's social health."). Is this still the case? Or, might it be time to put a questionnaire together - perhaps like http://www.planetcocoon.com/node/1774? Cheers, Mark IMHO, it won't do any harm to do some interviewing/polling from time to time. Postpone conclusions and further action till afterwards. As long as you think it is worth the effort... Cheers, Geert
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
On Tuesday 04 October 2005 15:51, Geert Josten wrote: > > 1. Rename the list "support@" or some similarly positive term. > > > > 2. Route all support@ mails to dev@ with a [SUPPORT] subject marker. > > That keeps users who want to be protected from the RTs, wild dev > > discussions and so on. > > +1 to this idea. Though, where should answers go? The Reply-To goes to the support@/user@ list, and since it is forwarded to dev@ a local copy for the developers also is forwarded. Effectively, a crossposting of always from support@ to dev@, but not the other direction. Just a thought, not sure if infrastructure@ would be too happy about it either. Cheers Niclas
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Hi all, When we discussed the issue of declining posts to the users list earlier this year (http://www.planetcocoon.com/node/1755 - the trend was visible back then too), I suggested interviewing subscribers about "what they want, what they don't like, their level of expertise, etc.". At that point (in May) people were fairly cool on the idea (e.g. "no, thanks. I really don't see any problem in cocoon's social health."). Is this still the case? Or, might it be time to put a questionnaire together - perhaps like http://www.planetcocoon.com/node/1774? Cheers, Mark On 3 Oct 2005, at 20:20, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: In these days of wild thoughts, here's another one: how about closing the users@ list and having just one list for cocoon-related discussions? I think I have a few good reasons for this: One: The line between cocoon users and developers is fairly thin, it is not as in Open Office for example, where most users do not even know what the C language is. Our users are more and more competent software developers who would often have interesting things to say if they were around, and might like this place more if they felt more involved. Cocoon has been finding its niche as a tool for serious application developers, as opposed to a press-button publishing tool, which it has never been and will never be. Two: my guess is that many dev@ subscribers could answer some users@ questions very quickly, but sometimes we don't bother looking at the list, and some of us are probably not even subscribed there. It's a waste of energy, and has probably caused otherwise competent people to go away after not getting good enough answers. Three: dev@ subscribers tend to use good messages subjects and [TOPIC MARKERS] in subject lines to make the lists easy to filter, visually or automatically. So I'm not worried about the increased traffic, we'll find a way to make it sortable by teaching our community about good subject lines or defining a few more [markers]. Okay, this is not really a *reason*, but it's needed for my argumentation ;-D Four: for many subjects one does not know on which list to post, again a waste of energy as threads regulary bounce between the lists. We developers tend to discuss between ourselves things that are of general interest, without bothering to move to users@ as it's not "our home". Five: having two lists, one for Highly Qualified Meritocratic Core Developers and another for Mere Users does not sound like the openness and flat structure that we're advocating (I'm being a bit provocative here, on purpose ;-) Six; the closing down of the docs@ list has only been positive, by defragmenting the community w.r.t docs and allowing all developers to be informed of what's happening with the [docs] (hint: note the good use of the [marker]). Seven: Having a single point of discussion will help us know our users better, this alone is worth its weight in bytes. So, WDYT? -Bertrand
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Hi, I'm mainly active on the users list, but being a full-time developer I am also monitoring the dev mailing list, just to keep my eyes open for new interesting features.. I do think that the feedback on the users list is rather low. Traffic on that list is usually much lower on the users list than on the dev list. So I would like to encourage either more dev people to monitor the users list, or to do some merging of some kind. Just as we speak, a message called "multiple xpaths" has been reposted on the dev list by someone who was not satisfied with the response on the users list. And more important, I am very sure that other members on the users list are interested in answers from dev people as well. Too bad you cannot cross-post between the two lists, that alone could have made things easier. I am also against "user" list. It has a degenerating tone to it, and the fact that many developers are not subscribed to user@ seems to promote that notion further. My suggestion; 1. Rename the list "support@" or some similarly positive term. 2. Route all support@ mails to dev@ with a [SUPPORT] subject marker. That keeps users who want to be protected from the RTs, wild dev discussions and so on. +1 to this idea. Though, where should answers go? Cheers, Geert
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
On Tuesday 04 October 2005 13:19, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > Thanks for your comments, let's see what others think. I am also against "user" list. It has a degenerating tone to it, and the fact that many developers are not subscribed to user@ seems to promote that notion further. My suggestion; 1. Rename the list "support@" or some similarly positive term. 2. Route all support@ mails to dev@ with a [SUPPORT] subject marker. That keeps users who want to be protected from the RTs, wild dev discussions and so on. Cheers Niclas
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Le 4 oct. 05, à 07:13, Berin Loritsch a écrit : ...Before going too far with this proposal, consider the impact of Stefano's latest thread on the average user. Esp. in light of the fact that there are several more people who simply lurk than who actually participate I'm not going to take a poll on users@ at this point, the idea is to have the opinion of dev@ people first - and we'll probably talk about that at the GT as well, so there's no hurry. This is just an [RT] after all, the actual actions that we take might be different from what I suggested. -Bertrand smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Le 4 oct. 05, à 00:00, Sylvain Wallez a écrit : ...I don't have that many reasons, but I don't think this is a good idea: One: Marketing wise, this will be a very bad sign, and would give to the outside world the impression that the Cocoon acceptance has shrunk so much than two lists are too much. And although traffic has dropped, we're far from that... This is a realistic risk - but by not taking it we're IMHO showing signs of "doing things the old-fashioned way" with a strict segregation between users and developers. ...Two: Cocoon-dev is scary for newbies, or even intermediate users. Disruptive random thoughts, design discussions about the very deep guts of the engine, etc. Some of my colleague, which I consider advanced users sometimes tell me they don't understand what the heck I'm talking about in some of my posts. If we want more people to come to Cocoon, exposing them to the dev's foolish discussions will just make them turn away... I tend agree with that - but people would IMHO quickly learn to filter out posts based on who's writing or on subject lines. I think most of us here do that, at least from time to time, about discussions that we don't have time to follow. ...Now you're right that some developers neglect [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think that's my main concern, so if we find another way to solve this it might already be an improvement. An easy way for us dev@ subscribers would be to filter both lists to the same folder, to avoid applying the "don't have time for users@" principle. But this doesn't solve the problem mentioned below... ...Now the main point is that progression in the lists should go from bottom to top (i.e. users->dev) and that once you feel fluent in an upper level (no pejorative meaning intented with "upper") you should still be present in the lower levels to share your knowledge... This is a problem currently, that many dev@ people are not to be seen on users@ anymore, and I think, it's even worse than that: we regularly ask questions on dev@ which in fact would belong on [EMAIL PROTECTED] We don't usually object and tell people to move the discussion there, so it's a net loss for users@ who miss the questions and answers. Thanks for your comments, let's see what others think. -Bertrand smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Le 3 oct. 05, à 22:56, Mark Lundquist a écrit : ...But please don't use the term "close down", instead say "merge" or "consolidate" :-) You're right, of course, "merge" is much more appropriate. -Bertrand Before going too far with this proposal, consider the impact of Stefano's latest thread on the average user. Esp. in light of the fact that there are several more people who simply lurk than who actually participate.
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Le 3 oct. 05, à 22:56, Mark Lundquist a écrit : ...But please don't use the term "close down", instead say "merge" or "consolidate" :-) You're right, of course, "merge" is much more appropriate. -Bertrand smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: In these days of wild thoughts, here's another one: how about closing the users@ list and having just one list for cocoon-related discussions? I think I have a few good reasons for this: One: The line between cocoon users and developers is fairly thin, it is not as in Open Office for example, where most users do not even know what the C language is. Our users are more and more competent software developers who would often have interesting things to say if they were around, and might like this place more if they felt more involved. Cocoon has been finding its niche as a tool for serious application developers, as opposed to a press-button publishing tool, which it has never been and will never be. Two: my guess is that many dev@ subscribers could answer some users@ questions very quickly, but sometimes we don't bother looking at the list, and some of us are probably not even subscribed there. It's a waste of energy, and has probably caused otherwise competent people to go away after not getting good enough answers. Three: dev@ subscribers tend to use good messages subjects and [TOPIC MARKERS] in subject lines to make the lists easy to filter, visually or automatically. So I'm not worried about the increased traffic, we'll find a way to make it sortable by teaching our community about good subject lines or defining a few more [markers]. Okay, this is not really a *reason*, but it's needed for my argumentation ;-D Four: for many subjects one does not know on which list to post, again a waste of energy as threads regulary bounce between the lists. We developers tend to discuss between ourselves things that are of general interest, without bothering to move to users@ as it's not "our home". Five: having two lists, one for Highly Qualified Meritocratic Core Developers and another for Mere Users does not sound like the openness and flat structure that we're advocating (I'm being a bit provocative here, on purpose ;-) Six; the closing down of the docs@ list has only been positive, by defragmenting the community w.r.t docs and allowing all developers to be informed of what's happening with the [docs] (hint: note the good use of the [marker]). Seven: Having a single point of discussion will help us know our users better, this alone is worth its weight in bytes. So, WDYT? I don't have that many reasons, but I don't think this is a good idea: One: Marketing wise, this will be a very bad sign, and would give to the outside world the impression that the Cocoon acceptance has shrunk so much than two lists are too much. And although traffic has dropped, we're far from that. Two: Cocoon-dev is scary for newbies, or even intermediate users. Disruptive random thoughts, design discussions about the very deep guts of the engine, etc. Some of my colleague, which I consider advanced users sometimes tell me they don't understand what the heck I'm talking about in some of my posts. If we want more people to come to Cocoon, exposing them to the dev's foolish discussions will just make them turn away. Now you're right that some developers neglect users@ (yeah, I'm in this category). This used to be because of the huge traffic. In my Thunderbird, users@ is deep down in the lists I read through news.gmane.org. That's a bad thing and I will now use a regular mail subscription so that it sits just beside the dev@ folder that I monitor every 5 minutes. And I strongly invite other devs in the same situation as me to do so. Let's consider the users-fr@ example: some people have started participating there, then started to participate to users@ and are now on dev@, even if occasionally. We need IMO different discussion areas where different kind of topic are to be addressed, and where people can progress. Now the main point is that progression in the lists should go from bottom to top (i.e. users->dev) and that once you feel fluent in an upper level (no pejorative meaning intented with "upper") you should still be present in the lower levels to share your knowledge. Once again, I'm one of the faulty devs regarding this, and I think that if we all dedicate to users@ a bit of the time we spend for dev@, that can make a difference. Sylvain -- Sylvain WallezAnyware Technologies http://people.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com Apache Software Foundation Member Research & Technology Director
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
On Oct 3, 2005, at 1:53 PM, Ralph Goers wrote: Take a poll on the users list. But please don't use the term "close down", instead say "merge" or "consolidate" :-) —ml—
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: In these days of wild thoughts, here's another one: how about closing the users@ list and having just one list for cocoon-related discussions? So, WDYT? -Bertrand I have no objection, but I think you are asking the question on the wrong list. Take a poll on the users list. Ralph
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: So, WDYT? Big +1! Keep it simple, and that goes for the mailing lists too. Bye, Helma
Re: [RT] seven good reasons to close down users@cocoon.apache.org
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: In these days of wild thoughts, here's another one: how about closing the users@ list and having just one list for cocoon-related discussions? I think I have a few good reasons for this: eight: by having one list, it would be easier to lead by example, and encourage good practice. i have commented on the need to more strongly deprecate old stuff (actions etc), but being exposed to users misled by these things will drive the point home more.
