Re: t...@apache.org ?
On 7 May 2013 20:44, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > Join infra. You will get to know all the dark corners of the ASF ;). > you might have heard of the bad, the good the ugly on the infra list called janIV. at least we have said "hi" on different ocasions. And about the dark corners, I think I got my share of that already, but no C++ project. rgds jan I. > > No really. You will hear about lists, projects, web pages, etc. you would > never have heard of > otherwise or only if you spent a lot of time looking. > > > Uli > > On 07.05.2013 20:39, Noah Slater wrote: > > Sure, but it's not very prominent, and things get lost in the noise. I > was > > thinking something more like a page for foundation-wide lists that people > > might want to subscribe to. I really had to go hunting around for things > > when I decided to up my involvement and a lot of it was a surprise for > me. > > > > > > On 7 May 2013 19:03, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > > > >> We already have a listing at [1]. It's hidden behind 2 clicks from the > >> main site. We could use that > >> as a starting point. > >> > >> Uli > >> > >> [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ > >> > >> On 07.05.2013 18:22, Noah Slater wrote: > >>> A note to committers@ might be a good first start. But, in general, I > >>> really think we need to do a better job of communicating the existing > >>> mailing lists we have. Perhaps a page on the main site, or on the > >> community > >>> site, would be a good start. > >>> > >>> > >>> On 7 May 2013 16:58, Bertrand Delacretaz > wrote: > >>> > On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Rich Bowen > wrote: > > ...the problem with Yet Another Mailing List, which is that we don't > know about the ones that we > > already have, and so how will people know about this one. Hmm. > >> Dunno > > We'll tweet about it! Tell the world! Write fantastic things on it so > that people link to it! Marketing! > > Seriously...that's a problem, but it's easier to be aware of one > general list than tons of specialized ones. > > -Bertrand > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > >
Re: t...@apache.org ?
Join infra. You will get to know all the dark corners of the ASF ;). No really. You will hear about lists, projects, web pages, etc. you would never have heard of otherwise or only if you spent a lot of time looking. Uli On 07.05.2013 20:39, Noah Slater wrote: > Sure, but it's not very prominent, and things get lost in the noise. I was > thinking something more like a page for foundation-wide lists that people > might want to subscribe to. I really had to go hunting around for things > when I decided to up my involvement and a lot of it was a surprise for me. > > > On 7 May 2013 19:03, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > >> We already have a listing at [1]. It's hidden behind 2 clicks from the >> main site. We could use that >> as a starting point. >> >> Uli >> >> [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ >> >> On 07.05.2013 18:22, Noah Slater wrote: >>> A note to committers@ might be a good first start. But, in general, I >>> really think we need to do a better job of communicating the existing >>> mailing lists we have. Perhaps a page on the main site, or on the >> community >>> site, would be a good start. >>> >>> >>> On 7 May 2013 16:58, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: >>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > ...the problem with Yet Another Mailing List, which is that we don't know about the ones that we > already have, and so how will people know about this one. Hmm. >> Dunno We'll tweet about it! Tell the world! Write fantastic things on it so that people link to it! Marketing! Seriously...that's a problem, but it's easier to be aware of one general list than tons of specialized ones. -Bertrand >>> >>> >>> >> > > >
Re: t...@apache.org ?
On 7 May 2013 20:03, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > We already have a listing at [1]. It's hidden behind 2 clicks from the > main site. We could use that > as a starting point. > > Uli > > [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ > > On 07.05.2013 18:22, Noah Slater wrote: > > A note to committers@ might be a good first start. But, in general, I > > really think we need to do a better job of communicating the existing > > mailing lists we have. Perhaps a page on the main site, or on the > community > > site, would be a good start. > > > > > > On 7 May 2013 16:58, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > > >> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > >>> ...the problem with Yet Another Mailing List, which is that we don't > >> know about the ones that we > >>> already have, and so how will people know about this one. Hmm. > Dunno > >> > >> We'll tweet about it! Tell the world! Write fantastic things on it so > >> that people link to it! Marketing! > >> > >> Seriously...that's a problem, but it's easier to be aware of one > >> general list than tons of specialized ones. > >> > >> -Bertrand > >> > > > > > > > +1 I might see the list a bit different, but never the less, I see it as an opportunity to have committers get aquinted across projects. I f.x. am a C++ programmer (main focus protocols, low layer stuff), heavy project leader experience, and today PMC in openoffice...I look for a project that could use my experience. Such a list would be a general place to talk about that. rgds Jan I.
Re: t...@apache.org ?
Sure, but it's not very prominent, and things get lost in the noise. I was thinking something more like a page for foundation-wide lists that people might want to subscribe to. I really had to go hunting around for things when I decided to up my involvement and a lot of it was a surprise for me. On 7 May 2013 19:03, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > We already have a listing at [1]. It's hidden behind 2 clicks from the > main site. We could use that > as a starting point. > > Uli > > [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ > > On 07.05.2013 18:22, Noah Slater wrote: > > A note to committers@ might be a good first start. But, in general, I > > really think we need to do a better job of communicating the existing > > mailing lists we have. Perhaps a page on the main site, or on the > community > > site, would be a good start. > > > > > > On 7 May 2013 16:58, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > > >> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > >>> ...the problem with Yet Another Mailing List, which is that we don't > >> know about the ones that we > >>> already have, and so how will people know about this one. Hmm. > Dunno > >> > >> We'll tweet about it! Tell the world! Write fantastic things on it so > >> that people link to it! Marketing! > >> > >> Seriously...that's a problem, but it's easier to be aware of one > >> general list than tons of specialized ones. > >> > >> -Bertrand > >> > > > > > > > -- NS
Re: t...@apache.org ?
We already have a listing at [1]. It's hidden behind 2 clicks from the main site. We could use that as a starting point. Uli [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ On 07.05.2013 18:22, Noah Slater wrote: > A note to committers@ might be a good first start. But, in general, I > really think we need to do a better job of communicating the existing > mailing lists we have. Perhaps a page on the main site, or on the community > site, would be a good start. > > > On 7 May 2013 16:58, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > >> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: >>> ...the problem with Yet Another Mailing List, which is that we don't >> know about the ones that we >>> already have, and so how will people know about this one. Hmm. Dunno >> >> We'll tweet about it! Tell the world! Write fantastic things on it so >> that people link to it! Marketing! >> >> Seriously...that's a problem, but it's easier to be aware of one >> general list than tons of specialized ones. >> >> -Bertrand >> > > >
Re: t...@apache.org ?
+0 I'm not against it but I don't actively support it either. Do you know release-discuss@? That was meant as a cross-project list for discussing release issues and has seen seven threads within the last three years with the last one from march last year (excluding cross-list announcements). I fear that any cross-project technical list will face the same fate. But go ahead and try ;) Uli On 07.05.2013 15:19, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > Hi, > > We don't seem to have a place for cross-cutting technical discussions > at the ASF - language and system issues, standards implementations, > etc. > > To fix this, I suggest creating a public t...@apache.org list, owned > by comdev, with the following rules: > > -Technical discussions on cross-cutting topics that are directly > related to Apache projects > > -Each new thread MUST have one or several [markers] in the subject > line to identify the topics. For example, [java], [osgi], [linux] etc. > > I volunteer to get the list started, as an experiment. > > WDYT? > -Bertrand >
Re: t...@apache.org ?
It would be a shame to scrap the idea because we are presuming the worst in everyone. That seems very anti-ASF to me. A better approach might be to appoint "social" moderators (i.e. gate keepers of the civility) that reign the conversation back in if and when things go off-track. Also, we do have a code of conduct, ala Ubuntu: https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/voluntary-code-of-conduct.txt On 7 May 2013 17:34, Marvin Humphrey wrote: > On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:19 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz > wrote: > > WDYT? > > I'm skeptical that it will work out well. I'd expect the list to descend > into > shouting matches between warring tribes and to end up as an echo chamber > dominated by the faction which can generate the greatest volume of email. > > On our dev lists, people have a tangible product to keep discussions > grounded. > Contributors are invested in what gets committed to the repository, and > conversations are directed towards achieving a negotiated end. > Participants > in the proposed general "tech" list won't be united by any such common > goal. > > In addition, Apache has only weak traditions encouraging civility -- by > design, in order to protect gadflies and encourage innovation through > conflict > -- and many abrasive people, from the bottom of the organization to the top > and going back to the foundation's earliest days. There's no "code of > conduct" a la Ubuntu, and even if a core group of tech@ subscribers starts > off by trying to establish a civil norm, they will be swimming against the > current. > > On the other hand, if you're looking to create a list which might make > members@ look pleasant by comparison, this could do the trick. > > Marvin Humphrey > -- NS
Re: t...@apache.org ?
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:19 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > WDYT? I'm skeptical that it will work out well. I'd expect the list to descend into shouting matches between warring tribes and to end up as an echo chamber dominated by the faction which can generate the greatest volume of email. On our dev lists, people have a tangible product to keep discussions grounded. Contributors are invested in what gets committed to the repository, and conversations are directed towards achieving a negotiated end. Participants in the proposed general "tech" list won't be united by any such common goal. In addition, Apache has only weak traditions encouraging civility -- by design, in order to protect gadflies and encourage innovation through conflict -- and many abrasive people, from the bottom of the organization to the top and going back to the foundation's earliest days. There's no "code of conduct" a la Ubuntu, and even if a core group of tech@ subscribers starts off by trying to establish a civil norm, they will be swimming against the current. On the other hand, if you're looking to create a list which might make members@ look pleasant by comparison, this could do the trick. Marvin Humphrey
Re: t...@apache.org ?
A note to committers@ might be a good first start. But, in general, I really think we need to do a better job of communicating the existing mailing lists we have. Perhaps a page on the main site, or on the community site, would be a good start. On 7 May 2013 16:58, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > > ...the problem with Yet Another Mailing List, which is that we don't > know about the ones that we > > already have, and so how will people know about this one. Hmm. Dunno > > We'll tweet about it! Tell the world! Write fantastic things on it so > that people link to it! Marketing! > > Seriously...that's a problem, but it's easier to be aware of one > general list than tons of specialized ones. > > -Bertrand > -- NS
Re: t...@apache.org ?
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > ...the problem with Yet Another Mailing List, which is that we don't know > about the ones that we > already have, and so how will people know about this one. Hmm. Dunno We'll tweet about it! Tell the world! Write fantastic things on it so that people link to it! Marketing! Seriously...that's a problem, but it's easier to be aware of one general list than tons of specialized ones. -Bertrand
Re: t...@apache.org ?
On May 7, 2013, at 11:36 AM, Noah Slater wrote: > Well, release-discuss[1] was one place suggested for things like "how do we > version releases?" (The only correct answer being semver! *wink*) But > unfortunately, discussion sort of dried up there. > > [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-release-discuss/ > [2] http://semver.org/ Which, of course, highlights the problem with Yet Another Mailing List, which is that we don't know about the ones that we already have, and so how will people know about this one. Hmm. Dunno. -- Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com :: @rbowen rbo...@apache.org
Re: t...@apache.org ?
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Noah Slater wrote: > Well, release-discuss[1] was one place suggested for things like "how do we > version releases?" (The only correct answer being semver! *wink*) But > unfortunately, discussion sort of dried up there I wasn't aware of that one - yes that's the kind of stuff that can go on tech@, and having a wider audience and set of topics should give more chances for a lively list. -Bertrand
Re: t...@apache.org ?
Well, release-discuss[1] was one place suggested for things like "how do we version releases?" (The only correct answer being semver! *wink*) But unfortunately, discussion sort of dried up there. [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-release-discuss/ [2] http://semver.org/ On 7 May 2013 16:33, Rich Bowen wrote: > > On May 7, 2013, at 11:24 AM, Suresh Marru wrote: > > > Hi Bertrand, > > > > This is a great idea + 1. > > > > Infact a useful exchange of ideas of will be on release versioning and > audit of stability. To be precise, when should we call a software 1.0, the > PMC can decide itself, but can it solicit feedback from other projects > which went this route and have them spend an hour or two providing > feedback? Other than apache con, there are scant technical venues where > projects share knowledge, experience and some tricks of the trade. I am not > saying a new mailing list will address any of these, but could booster some > discussions. > > > It might be a good place to generally speak about best practices. There's > nowhere outside of the incubator to have those kinds of discussions. > > -- > Rich Bowen > rbo...@rcbowen.com > Shosholoza > > > -- NS
Re: t...@apache.org ?
On May 7, 2013, at 11:24 AM, Suresh Marru wrote: > Hi Bertrand, > > This is a great idea + 1. > > Infact a useful exchange of ideas of will be on release versioning and audit > of stability. To be precise, when should we call a software 1.0, the PMC can > decide itself, but can it solicit feedback from other projects which went > this route and have them spend an hour or two providing feedback? Other than > apache con, there are scant technical venues where projects share knowledge, > experience and some tricks of the trade. I am not saying a new mailing list > will address any of these, but could booster some discussions. It might be a good place to generally speak about best practices. There's nowhere outside of the incubator to have those kinds of discussions. -- Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com Shosholoza
Re: [ANNOUNCE] Suresh Marru as new Community Development PMC member
Thank you Luciano, Piergiorgio, Chris and Bertrand for the warm welcome. Glad to hang out here, looking forward to provide some concrete contributions, Suresh On May 6, 2013, at 2:52 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 4:54 PM, Luciano Resende wrote: >> Please join me in welcoming Suresh Marru to the Community Development PMC. > > Welcome Suresh and thanks for your contributions! > -Bertrand
Re: t...@apache.org ?
Hi Bertrand, This is a great idea + 1. Infact a useful exchange of ideas of will be on release versioning and audit of stability. To be precise, when should we call a software 1.0, the PMC can decide itself, but can it solicit feedback from other projects which went this route and have them spend an hour or two providing feedback? Other than apache con, there are scant technical venues where projects share knowledge, experience and some tricks of the trade. I am not saying a new mailing list will address any of these, but could booster some discussions. Thanks, Suresh On May 7, 2013, at 9:19 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > Hi, > > We don't seem to have a place for cross-cutting technical discussions > at the ASF - language and system issues, standards implementations, > etc. > > To fix this, I suggest creating a public t...@apache.org list, owned > by comdev, with the following rules: > > -Technical discussions on cross-cutting topics that are directly > related to Apache projects > > -Each new thread MUST have one or several [markers] in the subject > line to identify the topics. For example, [java], [osgi], [linux] etc. > > I volunteer to get the list started, as an experiment. > > WDYT? > -Bertrand
Re: t...@apache.org ?
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 4:09 PM, Ross Gardler wrote: > Why not use dev@community (with subject tags?)... IMO community is about community building, tech@ would be for the hardcore tech stuff. It's a different audience IMO (with overlap of course), which warrants a different list. -Bertrand
Re: t...@apache.org ?
Why not use dev@community (with subject tags?) I don't object to a new list, just adding another option. Sent from a mobile device, please excuse mistakes and brevity On 7 May 2013 06:20, "Bertrand Delacretaz" wrote: > Hi, > > We don't seem to have a place for cross-cutting technical discussions > at the ASF - language and system issues, standards implementations, > etc. > > To fix this, I suggest creating a public t...@apache.org list, owned > by comdev, with the following rules: > > -Technical discussions on cross-cutting topics that are directly > related to Apache projects > > -Each new thread MUST have one or several [markers] in the subject > line to identify the topics. For example, [java], [osgi], [linux] etc. > > I volunteer to get the list started, as an experiment. > > WDYT? > -Bertrand >
Re: t...@apache.org ?
Indeed a great idea, +1. On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 9:32 PM, Charith Madusanka wrote: > +1, nice idea. > > > On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > > > On May 7, 2013, at 9:19 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > We don't seem to have a place for cross-cutting technical discussions > > > at the ASF - language and system issues, standards implementations, > > > etc. > > > > > > To fix this, I suggest creating a public t...@apache.org list, owned > > > by comdev, with the following rules: > > > > > > -Technical discussions on cross-cutting topics that are directly > > > related to Apache projects > > > > > > -Each new thread MUST have one or several [markers] in the subject > > > line to identify the topics. For example, [java], [osgi], [linux] etc. > > > > > > I volunteer to get the list started, as an experiment. > > > > > > WDYT? > > > > > > In the past we have had lengthy discussions about creating new lists, and > > the merits thereof. My position has always been TIAS (Try It And See). If > > the list is valuable, it will be valuable. If it isn't, it will be > > abandoned. > > > > So, yeah, +1 > > > > -- > > Rich Bowen > > rbo...@rcbowen.com :: @rbowen > > rbo...@apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Charitha Madusanka > Linkdin : http://www.linkedin.com/pub/charith-madusanka/1a/508/42a > Twitter : http://twitter.com/#!/charithccmc > -- Thanks Javin http://javarevisited.blogspot.com/
Re: t...@apache.org ?
+1, nice idea. On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > > On May 7, 2013, at 9:19 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > We don't seem to have a place for cross-cutting technical discussions > > at the ASF - language and system issues, standards implementations, > > etc. > > > > To fix this, I suggest creating a public t...@apache.org list, owned > > by comdev, with the following rules: > > > > -Technical discussions on cross-cutting topics that are directly > > related to Apache projects > > > > -Each new thread MUST have one or several [markers] in the subject > > line to identify the topics. For example, [java], [osgi], [linux] etc. > > > > I volunteer to get the list started, as an experiment. > > > > WDYT? > > > In the past we have had lengthy discussions about creating new lists, and > the merits thereof. My position has always been TIAS (Try It And See). If > the list is valuable, it will be valuable. If it isn't, it will be > abandoned. > > So, yeah, +1 > > -- > Rich Bowen > rbo...@rcbowen.com :: @rbowen > rbo...@apache.org > > > > > > -- Charitha Madusanka Linkdin : http://www.linkedin.com/pub/charith-madusanka/1a/508/42a Twitter : http://twitter.com/#!/charithccmc
Re: t...@apache.org ?
On May 7, 2013, at 9:19 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > Hi, > > We don't seem to have a place for cross-cutting technical discussions > at the ASF - language and system issues, standards implementations, > etc. > > To fix this, I suggest creating a public t...@apache.org list, owned > by comdev, with the following rules: > > -Technical discussions on cross-cutting topics that are directly > related to Apache projects > > -Each new thread MUST have one or several [markers] in the subject > line to identify the topics. For example, [java], [osgi], [linux] etc. > > I volunteer to get the list started, as an experiment. > > WDYT? In the past we have had lengthy discussions about creating new lists, and the merits thereof. My position has always been TIAS (Try It And See). If the list is valuable, it will be valuable. If it isn't, it will be abandoned. So, yeah, +1 -- Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com :: @rbowen rbo...@apache.org
Re: t...@apache.org ?
Appears to be a great idea. On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > Hi, > > We don't seem to have a place for cross-cutting technical discussions > at the ASF - language and system issues, standards implementations, > etc. > > To fix this, I suggest creating a public t...@apache.org list, owned > by comdev, with the following rules: > > -Technical discussions on cross-cutting topics that are directly > related to Apache projects > > -Each new thread MUST have one or several [markers] in the subject > line to identify the topics. For example, [java], [osgi], [linux] etc. > > I volunteer to get the list started, as an experiment. > > WDYT? > -Bertrand >
t...@apache.org ?
Hi, We don't seem to have a place for cross-cutting technical discussions at the ASF - language and system issues, standards implementations, etc. To fix this, I suggest creating a public t...@apache.org list, owned by comdev, with the following rules: -Technical discussions on cross-cutting topics that are directly related to Apache projects -Each new thread MUST have one or several [markers] in the subject line to identify the topics. For example, [java], [osgi], [linux] etc. I volunteer to get the list started, as an experiment. WDYT? -Bertrand
