[JIRA] Created: (FOR-511) Need better documentation explaining how to use Tabs
Message: A new issue has been created in JIRA. - View the issue: http://issues.cocoondev.org//browse/FOR-511 Here is an overview of the issue: - Key: FOR-511 Summary: Need better documentation explaining how to use Tabs Type: Improvement Status: Unassigned Priority: Major Project: Forrest Components: Documentation and website Assignee: Reporter: David Crossley Created: Sun, 29 May 2005 1:20 AM Updated: Sun, 29 May 2005 1:20 AM Description: Subject: Re: documentation additions and issue tracking (Was: App vs Data) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 To: forrest-user http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/forrest-user/200505.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] - JIRA INFORMATION: This message is automatically generated by JIRA. If you think it was sent incorrectly contact one of the administrators: http://issues.cocoondev.org//secure/Administrators.jspa If you want more information on JIRA, or have a bug to report see: http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira
[JIRA] Updated: (FOR-511) Need better documentation explaining how to use Tabs
The following issue has been updated: Updater: David Crossley (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 1:21 AM Changes: description changed from Subject: Re: documentation additions and issue tracking (Was: App vs Data) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 To: forrest-user http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/forrest-user/200505.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] to Subject: Re: documentation additions and issue tracking (Was: App vs Data) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 http://www.mail-archive.com/user%40forrest.apache.org/msg00650.html - For a full history of the issue, see: http://issues.cocoondev.org//browse/FOR-511?page=history - View the issue: http://issues.cocoondev.org//browse/FOR-511 Here is an overview of the issue: - Key: FOR-511 Summary: Need better documentation explaining how to use Tabs Type: Improvement Status: Unassigned Priority: Major Project: Forrest Components: Documentation and website Assignee: Reporter: David Crossley Created: Sun, 29 May 2005 1:20 AM Updated: Sun, 29 May 2005 1:21 AM Description: Subject: Re: documentation additions and issue tracking (Was: App vs Data) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 http://www.mail-archive.com/user%40forrest.apache.org/msg00650.html - JIRA INFORMATION: This message is automatically generated by JIRA. If you think it was sent incorrectly contact one of the administrators: http://issues.cocoondev.org//secure/Administrators.jspa If you want more information on JIRA, or have a bug to report see: http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira
[JIRA] Created: (FOR-512) Need documentation explaining how to use site.xml configuration file
Message: A new issue has been created in JIRA. - View the issue: http://issues.cocoondev.org//browse/FOR-512 Here is an overview of the issue: - Key: FOR-512 Summary: Need documentation explaining how to use site.xml configuration file Type: Improvement Status: Unassigned Priority: Minor Project: Forrest Components: Documentation and website Assignee: Reporter: David Crossley Created: Sun, 29 May 2005 1:23 AM Updated: Sun, 29 May 2005 1:23 AM Description: Subject: Re: documentation additions and issue tracking (Was: App vs Data) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 http://www.mail-archive.com/user%40forrest.apache.org/msg00650.html - JIRA INFORMATION: This message is automatically generated by JIRA. If you think it was sent incorrectly contact one of the administrators: http://issues.cocoondev.org//secure/Administrators.jspa If you want more information on JIRA, or have a bug to report see: http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira
[Proposal] remove views from forrest (Re: Views as a Domain Specific Language)
I really thought whether or not to answer this thread. On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 11:39 +0100, Ross Gardler wrote: Thorsten Scherler wrote: On Thu, 2005-05-26 at 18:20 -0400, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote: ... are you suggesting that it is easier to learn and use a DSL than to use java? i don't buy that, sorry. the DSL is just a layer of indirection, the real implementation (at least in lenya, dunno about forrest) will be java classes anyway, so why not try to have a sensible API rather than hide it behind a bunch of xml? That user that do not have to learn java to extend and use lenya/forrest. They want to configure and not program. I think it is important to understand that at present only Thorstens eyes have touched most of the views plugin (that is why it is in the whiteboard). Last time another dev was able to find the time to understand what Thorsten was doing we ended up simplifying a rather complex XML structure to a really simple one that did the same job, far more efficiently. ¿? Are you talking about Diwaker Gupta? If so then what you wrote is not true! I added CSS support to then decide to get rid of it again. ...and about which complex structure are you takling about? What I am saying is that when you examine an example from Thorsten in the mailing list it tends to be hugely complex. ¿? ...again do you consider the fv markup as complex? It contains in the core 2 basic tags: forrest:hooks (will be transformed in div) and forrest:contracts (which is a capsuled piece of code from the former site2xhtml.xsl). I *really* do not understand what is complex. On the other hand to create a new skin I consider complex and inflexible. You have to get into 2-3 xsl stylesheets and do all changes there regardless whether you only want to move e.g. the logo. In fv that is dead simple!!! Thorsten has been working away at this for some time and is in it far deeper than anyone else. Yeah, because I am using the concept of dispatcher view in some customer projects with success. I have a feeling that once we get the chance to review his work the config schema and configuration technique will be massively improved. As you know, that is the way of Open Source. Hmm, the only thing I consider to be improved is the processing behind the scenes for xhtml. The scheme is *simple* (see above) and the technique, yeah it needs a clearer separation. All Thorsten is doing is providing a configuration file. However, I do agree that at present that config file is far too complex, Please show me where the config file is complex!!! if the Forrest devs (well, me at least) can't understand it then it is not suitable for use. ¿? So in conclusion, I agree with Gregors concerns, but I also agree with the direction Thorsten is trying to go in. Actually that is the reason why I am proposing that forrest is *not* officially developing views anymore. I do not see that it get accepted better said it is causing confusion and concerns by user. I happily remove all code regarding views from forrest if the forrest pmc will positively vote for it. If this happens I will open an OS-project and develop it elsewhere. I will provide in such a project support for lenya and forrest but this would be independently from both projects. Forrest can keep on using skins with all the downside that they have (see the recent threads on user/dev). They are accepted. ;-) salu2 -- thorsten Together we stand, divided we fall! Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: [Proposal] remove views from forrest (Re: Views as a Domain Specific Language)
Thorsten Scherler wrote: ... On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 11:39 +0100, Ross Gardler wrote: ... So in conclusion, I agree with Gregors concerns, but I also agree with the direction Thorsten is trying to go in. Actually that is the reason why I am proposing that forrest is *not* officially developing views anymore. Please reconsider. You are getting unnecessarily carried away by your emotion. Don't mistakenly read mails as if they were personal complaints when they are not. ... I do not see that it get accepted better said it is causing confusion and concerns by user. Let me be brutally honest with you, as you are being so too with this mail. Forrest needs a view system that is better than the current skins, and what you are doing is generally in line with what I have in mind. You like it, you have passion, and this is good. On the other hand, your descriptions of the system are sometimes totally incomprehensible. If I hadn't seen the code and did not have a similar concept in mind, I think I would have not understood. I think it's about time that I check out your work and give you feedback. Where do I start? -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) -
Re: [Proposal] remove views from forrest (Re: Views as a Domain Specific Language)
On Dom, 29 de Mayo de 2005, 8:22, Thorsten Scherler dijo: snip/ So in conclusion, I agree with Gregors concerns, but I also agree with the direction Thorsten is trying to go in. Actually that is the reason why I am proposing that forrest is *not* officially developing views anymore. I do not see that it get accepted better said it is causing confusion and concerns by user. I happily remove all code regarding views from forrest if the forrest pmc will positively vote for it. If this happens I will open an OS-project and develop it elsewhere. I will provide in such a project support for lenya and forrest but this would be independently from both projects. Forrest can keep on using skins with all the downside that they have (see the recent threads on user/dev). They are accepted. ;-) What are you talking about? Thorsten, please don't take it too personal! People can comment about the work you are doing. Unfortunately, I don't had time to check you current work. 3 lessons I learned: 1-Don't get angry when people do bad comments about your work. AFAIK, only people that do nothing, never makes mistakes!. ;-) I know how frustating is when you spended a lot of hours in a job and then somebody told you this is not good. Please, next time, better breath a bit and wait until you are OK, before answering. ;-) -- Pollo Alemán! 2-I will suggest you to finish the job and then show us how easy or dificult it is. 3-Keep the user interface in mind all the time. I remember you told me about this since last year. I still believe the idea is good. So please don't call unnecesary votes before it is needed. ok? ;-) Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo.
Re: [Proposal] remove views from forrest (Re: Views as a Domain Specific Language)
¿? Are you talking about Diwaker Gupta? If so then what you wrote is not true! I added CSS support to then decide to get rid of it again. Perfectly correct! I *was* working on another skin using views, but I've stopped work on that since I find that problem with the id generation for anchor tags is a much bigger problem. I'd just like to add that views IS the right direction for forrest IMHO and work SHOULD continue on it. I think views/viewsHelper is pretty easy to use, in reasonably good shape, and with some more polishing user documentation, it'll be ready to fly! So hang in there Thorsten! -- Diwaker Gupta http://resolute.ucsd.edu/diwaker
Re: [Proposal] remove views from forrest (Re: Views as a Domain Specific Language)
Thorsten Scherler wrote: On Sun, 2005-05-29 at 16:02 +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: Thorsten Scherler wrote: ... On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 11:39 +0100, Ross Gardler wrote: ... So in conclusion, I agree with Gregors concerns, but I also agree with the direction Thorsten is trying to go in. Actually that is the reason why I am proposing that forrest is *not* officially developing views anymore. Please reconsider. You are getting unnecessarily carried away by your emotion. Don't mistakenly read mails as if they were personal complaints when they are not. Ok, I did not meant to do that but it seems I did. Sorry! I was *not* *recommending* it but was *offering* to do so because I thought that is maybe the best for forrest. Thank goodness it is an offer, that implies we have a choice, my choice is to not accept your offer. We need views, but we (the other devs) need to spend more time understanding it. (as promised I will explain my original comments when I have a clearer head). Ross
Re: [Proposal] remove views from forrest (Re: Views as a Domain Specific Language)
Thorsten Scherler wrote: I really thought whether or not to answer this thread. Well I said I was going to answer this tomorrow, but there is no way I will sleep thinking that I have left this unaddressed so here goes (I hope the alcohol doesn't make things worse ;-)... On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 11:39 +0100, Ross Gardler wrote: Thorsten Scherler wrote: On Thu, 2005-05-26 at 18:20 -0400, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote: ... are you suggesting that it is easier to learn and use a DSL than to use java? i don't buy that, sorry. the DSL is just a layer of indirection, the real implementation (at least in lenya, dunno about forrest) will be java classes anyway, so why not try to have a sensible API rather than hide it behind a bunch of xml? That user that do not have to learn java to extend and use lenya/forrest. They want to configure and not program. I think it is important to understand that at present only Thorstens eyes have touched most of the views plugin (that is why it is in the whiteboard). Last time another dev was able to find the time to understand what Thorsten was doing we ended up simplifying a rather complex XML structure to a really simple one that did the same job, far more efficiently. ¿? Are you talking about Diwaker Gupta? If so then what you wrote is not true! I added CSS support to then decide to get rid of it again. No I wasn't talking of Diwaker Gupta, however you are right to mention him as he has been active in examining and discussing some aspects of views. My apologies for overlooking his contribution, even if it has not been implemented, it has been valid discussion. What I *was* referring to was our discussions on how to include feeder output in a view: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-devm=111217134219139w=2 In which we went from: forrest:contract name=feeder forrest:properties contract=feeder forrest:property name=feeder nugget=get.nugget.feeder feedDescriptor feed id=shows urlhttp://m11.btefnet.net/torrents/backend.xml/url /feed feed id=sf urlhttp://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projnews.php?group_id=96589/url /feed /feedDescriptor /forrest:property forrest:property name=feedConfig feed id=planetJava maxItem=10 descr=false/ /forrest:property /forrest:properties /forrest:contract To a nice clean and more understandable: forrest:contract name=feeder forrest:properties contract=feeder forrest:property name=feeder nugget=get.nugget.feeder url/feeds/somefeed.xml/url /forrest:property /forrest:properties /forrest:contract Admittedly some of the information in the original is in the feeder plugin config rather than the views config, but both configs are much more understandable and we successfully separated the concerns of the view designer and the content designer. My intention in raising this point was not to say that your designs are not good, but to say that we have found that they *are* good and when we (all the Forrest devs) put our heads together we can really polish what you have done. ...and about which complex structure are you takling about? What I am saying is that when you examine an example from Thorsten in the mailing list it tends to be hugely complex. ¿? I simply meant that sometimes your examples are too complex for others, who are lacking your background in the development of views. This is not a failing of yours, it is a failing of *ours* (mine?) because we (I?) are not currently able to find the time to discuss the examples with you as we did in the above thread. ...again do you consider the fv markup as complex? It contains in the core 2 basic tags: forrest:hooks (will be transformed in div) and forrest:contracts (which is a capsuled piece of code from the former site2xhtml.xsl). When you explain it like that it sounds wonderful, but a complex language need not have many elements. It can have a few elements used in many contexts. However, that is not the problem I have perceive, at least I don't think so. The problem I have can be seen in the example above. Look at your first stab at the config file. It contains information relevant to two different types of Forrest user, the content designer (the feeder config stuff) and the views designer (the contracts, hooks and properties). This makes it *appear* complex to the uninitiated reader. Again, this is not meant as a criticism, it is an observation. I made the observation because Gregor had clearly found himself in the middle of one of these *seemingly* complex examples and it was ringing alarm bells for him. He was quite rightly asking should he turn them off or was there a real issue. The example in question is: forrest:views xmlns:forrest=http://apache.org/forrest/templates/1.0; xmlns:logic=http://apache.org/forrest/logic/1.0; logic:filter
Re: [Proposal] remove views from forrest (Re: Views as a Domain Specific Language)
On Dom, 29 de Mayo de 2005, 21:15, David Crossley dijo: Well said Ross, you express yourself well even when drunk. +1 Perhaps we need to send him more beers? ;-) Seriously, it was a very nice answer! I liked it much. Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo
