Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-03-02 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi Samphan,

On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 18:49:24 +0700, Samphan Raruenrom wrote:

 I've used CLDR Survey Tool to enter the data.
 Is this OK? Or should I file a bug?

No, everything fine, the survey tool is the new way of submitting data
and changes to the CLDR. When I started the audit the tool wasn't ready,
but now it is.

Thanks!
  Eike

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-03-01 Thread Samphan Raruenrom

I've used CLDR Survey Tool to enter the data.
Is this OK? Or should I file a bug?

Eike Rathke wrote:

Hi Samphan,

On Wed, Feb 01, 2006 at 08:17:22 +0700, Samphan Raruenrom wrote:

  

OK. I have consulted this issue with other Thai developers.
We all agree that almost all of the data in OOo is right.
Only CurrencyID discussed below has to be changed
to 'THB'. For other entries, CLDR should be aligned
to OOo locale.



Fine. Would you mind filing a bug against the CLDR and when done
reporting its number back here? See pointers in the audit document.

What made me wonder though is, that OOo's TimeAM and TimePM are said to
be AM/PM and not some localized expressions as listed by the CLDR.

  Eike

  



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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-02-09 Thread Kartik Mistry
From: Eike Rathke,

Thanks, I added that to the audit document and hope my editor didn't
introduce any errors when copying the utf-8 characters.

Would you mind filing a bug against the CLDR for those items that now
have a TODO in the gu_IN audit? Please see the audit document for
pointers, and when done please report the bugID back here.

Thanks
Eike

Hi Eike,

Thanks a lot. I have filled a bug #969 against CLDR data. Please check
and comment of anything is wrong.

Regards,
--
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(O,O)   GNU/Linux Developer
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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-02-09 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi Tomislav,

On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 14:27:03 +0100, Tomislav Randjic wrote:

  I will add EUR to the used currencies for *_CS, just that it opens the
  question which would be the default. CLDR lists EUR as default. Is that
  correct?
 
 For now, default for sr_CS should be CSD, and EUR should be there also
 to overcome current situation with Euro in Montenegro.

Please allow me one question: is that a voice from Serbia, or a voice
from Montenegro?

  Eike

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-02-09 Thread Danilo Šegan
Hi Eike,

Today at 18:39, Eike Rathke wrote:

 On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 14:27:03 +0100, Tomislav Randjic wrote:

  I will add EUR to the used currencies for *_CS, just that it opens the
  question which would be the default. CLDR lists EUR as default. Is that
  correct?

Nope, CSD is correct, read below for some elaboration.

 For now, default for sr_CS should be CSD, and EUR should be there also
 to overcome current situation with Euro in Montenegro.

 Please allow me one question: is that a voice from Serbia, or a voice
 from Montenegro?

You can count it as voice from people: at least 90% of population
of Serbia and Montenegro lives in Serbia-proper (not counting Kosovo
in, it's 8 million vs 0.8 million [and note that it's probably more
than 8 million, and less than 0.8 million, so I am not being gentle on
Serbia, but rather vice versa]).

Generally, it's politically a very sensitive question, and you avoid
most of the fuss by setting CSD as default currency (there's more:
Kosovo with 1.2+M is nowadays probably using EUR as well, even if it's
part of Serbia [or isn't, I am not going into political discussion
here]).

Note that also some day names would be spelled out differently in
Montenegro (eg. for Wednesday: сриједа instead of среда, or in
Latin transcription srijeda instead of sreda), so generally, sr_CS
is a locale more suitable for Serbia part of the union.  That's why I
designed a [EMAIL PROTECTED] locale for GNU libc (which is usable in both
Montenegro and Bosnia [in Serbian areas]), basically for Jekavian
dialect as used in Balkans, yet it never garnered enough interest (the
number of people that might use it is really small).


Note that each dialect is as much Serbian as the other, so if we
bring this into discussion, we'll never achieve anything: the voice
from Serbia is going to be more useful to a MAJORITY of people, and
that should be the only criteria.

Cheers,
Danilo

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-02-07 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi Danilo,

On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 01:30:51 +0100, Danilo �?egan wrote:

  318 LC_CTYPETimeAM
 Yes, uppercase AM/PM is as good as am/pm.

Good, another one sorted out. I assume this is the same for Serbian
Latin script then.

  326 CurrencyCurrencySymbol
  TODO: file CLDR bug
 
 Agreed.  I am not really familiar with how that goes, but I've seen
 another post from Peter Nugent on how to report any omissions for the
 upcoming CLDR 1.4, so I'll check that one.

Ah, yes, CLDR started the vetting for 1.4

Another thing: I know the confusing fact that, although being a state
union, Montenegro severed its economy from Serbia, and while Serbia uses
the Serbian Dinar (CSD) as currency, Montenegro uses the Euro (EUR).
I will add EUR to the used currencies for *_CS, just that it opens the
question which would be the default. CLDR lists EUR as default. Is that
correct?

Thanks
  Eike

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-02-07 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi Kartik,

On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 21:24:05 +0530, Kartik Mistry wrote:

 Here is what I have missed!

Thanks, I added that to the audit document and hope my editor didn't
introduce any errors when copying the utf-8 characters.

 StartDayOfWeek - mon should be સોમ which is similar to CLDR day of Monday.

Note that there in item #964 it is an ID, not to be localized, so 'mon'
would be correct.

 This changes will make Gujarati Perfet in OO.o!

Would you mind filing a bug against the CLDR for those items that now
have a TODO in the gu_IN audit? Please see the audit document for
pointers, and when done please report the bugID back here.

Thanks
  Eike

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-02-01 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi Samphan,

On Wed, Feb 01, 2006 at 08:17:22 +0700, Samphan Raruenrom wrote:

 OK. I have consulted this issue with other Thai developers.
 We all agree that almost all of the data in OOo is right.
 Only CurrencyID discussed below has to be changed
 to 'THB'. For other entries, CLDR should be aligned
 to OOo locale.

Fine. Would you mind filing a bug against the CLDR and when done
reporting its number back here? See pointers in the audit document.

What made me wonder though is, that OOo's TimeAM and TimePM are said to
be AM/PM and not some localized expressions as listed by the CLDR.

  Eike

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-02-01 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi Yury,

On Tue, Jan 31, 2006 at 11:57:50 +0200, Yury Tarasievich wrote:

  It is safe. Just what do people expect if, for example, they have a Calc
  value cell and click the currency format icon? Do they want to see some
  sort of symbol or abbreviation, even if more than one charater or glyph,
  or the ISO code?
 
 If not seeing there one of the traditional symbols, they'd expect to see 
 something comprehensible. Let's leave ISO code there, then.

Ok, will align to CLDR then.

  Tarrifs are something different, in telephone calls we can have a tarrif
  of 0.0099 Euro per minute, but the smallest coin is 0.01 Euro (== 1 Cent)
  so decimals are 2. What is the smallest amount of money you can have in
  your pocket?
 
 Okay, 0 decimal places, then. 

Will align also that.

Thanks
  Eike

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-01-31 Thread Samphan Raruenrom

OK. I have consulted this issue with other Thai developers.
We all agree that almost all of the data in OOo is right.
Only CurrencyID discussed below has to be changed
to 'THB'. For other entries, CLDR should be aligned
to OOo locale.

Eike Rathke wrote:

Hi Samphan,

On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 08:27:53 +0700, Samphan Raruenrom wrote:

  

What should be used for CurrencyID?
http://l10n.openoffice.org/nonav/i18n_framework/cldr/LocaleDataAudit_OOo202.html#219
I see inconsistencies between locales.
- bank symbol
- currency symbol
- translated currency name
- currency name in English
I see all cases in the OOo locale. Should we have a standard?



Yes ;-)  it's simple:

- CurrencyID should be the ISO 4217 code, the element is currently not
  used in OOo, but may in future for a real ID, instead of BankSymbol
  that currently serves that purpose. Currently the content is a wild
  mixture of names, symbols and IDs, I'll adjust that in all locale data
  over time.

- BankSymbol is the ISO 4217 code as well, that one is used for display
  purposes for example in bank exchange. In future it _might_ differ
  from ISO 4217, but I doubt it will.

- CurrencySymbol is the display symbol used with amounts.

- CurrencyName is the name the currency is called in the native
  language.

  



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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-01-30 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi dwb,

On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 14:51:09 +, dwb wrote:

 I didn't seriously think my suggestion would fly! :-O

Glad to see you give in ;-)

 So, on behalf of the British I hereby declare that the first day of the
 week for en-GB is Monday, as stated in BS EN 28601:1992.

Accepted.

 Should I file an issue to align OOo with the CLDR?

No, not necessary. I'll file a collective issue for all those small bits
that will arrive over time and just align them according to the
findings. For now I'll just record it in the audit document.

Thanks
  Eike

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-01-30 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi Yury,

On Sat, Jan 28, 2006 at 11:53:34 +0200, Yury Tarasievich wrote:

   #1387 CurrencySymbol // BYR
   руб. or бел.руб.
 ...
  The string length doesn't matter technically, it should be a choice of
  usage if there is no national standard. I guess few people write long
  terms for the currency symbol when pricing goods, for example. Don't
  know though how the CLDR regards this. Maybe because as long as there is
  no standard they use the ISO code instead.
 
 In fact, I think such record is of almost no meaning outside the several 
 countries where such cultural artifacts exist traditionally. Abbreviation 
 doesn't equal symbol, after all. Perhaps, we should leave ISO code there? 
 Safe choice? 

It is safe. Just what do people expect if, for example, they have a Calc
value cell and click the currency format icon? Do they want to see some
sort of symbol or abbreviation, even if more than one charater or glyph,
or the ISO code?

 Otherwise, I think the primary setting should be бел.nbsp;руб., to avoid 
 ambiguity.

Ambiguity to what? My Cyrillic parser is broken ;-)
Note that it is fine to have identical symbols for different currencies
of different countries. For example, the $ symbol is not only used for
USD. You don't have to make up symbols just to prevent ambiguity.

  What about #1395, decimal places of the currency? CLDR states that there
  are only integer amounts, OOo includes 2 decimals.
 
 Well, trivial currency data here doesn't include decimal places, indeed. 
 OTOH, 
 decimal places (kopecks) are still fairly commonly used, e.g., in tariffs. 

Tarrifs are something different, in telephone calls we can have a tarrif
of 0.0099 Euro per minute, but the smallest coin is 0.01 Euro (== 1 Cent)
so decimals are 2. What is the smallest amount of money you can have in
your pocket?

 Bit of over-eagerness on part of CLDR here?

CLDR tries to be as correct as possible. It's the only way to go when
you want to create a reference database.

  Eike

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-01-27 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi Yury,

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 12:38:53 +0200, Yury Tarasievich wrote:

 Done. CLDR bug #962 (audit issues #1378 and #1379).

Thank you.

   3. gregorian:MonthsOfYear.Month.MonthID // may
   Formally, both variants are permissible. Bit of ambiguity here. Let it
   be?
 
  If it really doesn't matter, I'd align to CLDR then. 
 
 Well, I'd still say current ooo setting is marginally better, w/r to cultural 
 tradition. It isn't too uncommon for CLDR to err somewhat in such matters, 
 after all.

If that is the case, then please add it to your CLDR bug report. Our
goal isn't only to have correct OOo data, but also to get correct CLDR
data. In future we want to be able to semi-automatically update OOo's
locale data with CLDR content. Differences prevent us from doing so. To
get changes in to the CLDR easier it helps to provide some evidence like
official government websites or references to books. Even cultural
tradition may be documented somewhere, for example in dissertations. If
CLDR doesn't accept it, it was at least worth the try. If there aren't
any official rules, I doubt there's justification to keep the old data.

Btw, when reporting CLDR bugs it may be helpful to include an URL of the
item as a pointer to our audit document, such as
http://l10n.openoffice.org/nonav/i18n_framework/cldr/LocaleDataAudit_OOo202.html#1378

  What about the other month name differences that seem to 
  differ in capitalization? Also both permissible? 
 ...
   4. gregorian:DaysOfWeek.Day.DayID // tue
   Irrelevant, as there is no standard here on such abbreviations.
 
  Same here, capitalization differences of other day names?
 
 *All* capitalisation-only differences in be_BY section of this audit are just 
 a matter of different presentations. Speaking *strictest*, Belarusian grammar 
 doesn't regard names of days and months as proper nouns, so CLDR is possibly 
 bit more correct here, disregarding that names are often capitalised in 
 definitions like this, with no consideration for grammars' rules.
 
 Your decision, I think.

I'll align that to CLDR then.


  I assume OOo's BYR CurrencySymbol р. instead of BYR is correct? Please
  include that in your CLDR bug report then.
 
 Well, after re-checking with CLDR tables and ooo locales, what ought to be 
 here is (numbers of audit issues):
 
 #1383 CurrencyID // BYR
 BYR
 (as per ISO 4217 and per National Bank regulation)

Already marked to be aligned.


 #1387 CurrencySymbol // BYR
 руб. or бел.руб.
 (there really is no such symbol at the moment, but the above abbreviations 
 are 
 the ones commonly used for that purpose. I have no idea whether these are 
 acceptable w/r to string length, however. If not, then previous choice of 
 р. would be acceptable, too.)

The string length doesn't matter technically, it should be a choice of
usage if there is no national standard. I guess few people write long
terms for the currency symbol when pricing goods, for example. Don't
know though how the CLDR regards this. Maybe because as long as there is
no standard they use the ISO code instead.


 #1391 CurrencyName // BYR
 беларускі рубель
 (if name is to be in national language, then CLDR is right here)

Also marked to be aligned.

What about #1395, decimal places of the currency? CLDR states that there
are only integer amounts, OOo includes 2 decimals.

Thanks for the detailed answers. It seems that be_BY is quite
a difficult locale..

  Eike

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-01-27 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi Rail,

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 02:03:56 +0300, Rail Aliev wrote:

 I filed an issue with patch.

Thanks
  Eike

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-01-27 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi dwb,

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 08:57:24 +, dwb wrote:

 Regarding en-GB (British English), and probably the same applies to en-IE,
 the only issue is over the first day of the week.
 
 I wrote to Dr Stockton at Surrey University - he has done research on the
 subject and can offer arguments and historical perspectives supporting both
 views.

Nice :-/

 There are some things in the UK for which, overall, we really do not use a
 standard, and this is one of them.
 
 Also: Certainly we have historically started the week on Sunday (unlike,
 it seems, the Creator who apparently chose Monday);

Well, that just depends on the religion in use.. ;-)

 but the working week starts on Monday.

which also derived from religion.. so not much helpful either.

 He cites BS EN 28601:1992 which is based on ISO 8601 first edition, which
 states that the first day of the week is Monday and adopts the ISO
 algorithm for week numbering.

I think we can sort that out to be Monday.

 I have also written to the BSI, but have not had a response yet.

From previous discussions I remember that the BSI defined it to be
Monday, which apparently is the reason that CLDR lists Monday.

 Given that both Sunday and Monday appear to be in common usage, why don't
 we consider making the first day of the week user configurable within the
 options settings? We could then default to the ISO standard (Monday) and
 those who prefer Sunday could simply set their choice under options settings?

That could be an option, but honestly, I strongly doubt that anyone
would spend resources on it. Maybe the British should simply make up
their mind ;-)

  Eike

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-01-26 Thread Yury Tarasievich

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:22:40 +0200, Eike Rathke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I created a new locale data audit document, 320kb
http://l10n.openoffice.org/nonav/i18n_framework/cldr/LocaleDataAudit_OOo202.html

that does a comparison between locale data as of OOo m151 and CLDR 1.3.
For details and description please see the document.

...

Mismatches for be_BY:

1. gregorian:Eras.Era.EraID // ad, bc
Locale data is correct in this matter, and CLDR is incorrect.

2. LC_CTYPE // ThousandSeparator
Non-breaking space is preferred, so CLDR is more correct in this.

3. gregorian:MonthsOfYear.Month.MonthID // may
Formally, both variants are permissible. Bit of ambiguity here. Let it be?

4. gregorian:DaysOfWeek.Day.DayID // tue
Irrelevant, as there is no standard here on such abbreviations.

-regards

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-01-26 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi Dwayne,

On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 00:50:26 +0200, Dwayne Bailey wrote:

 Out of curiosity do you have a list of locales that are in Microsoft but
 not in OOo?

No, but you may compare with
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/intl/nls_238z.asp

I didn't check yet if that's complete though, they have several lists of
LCIDs, you may find the most important ones at my developer's page
http://www.erack.de/bookmarks/D.html#GIL_MS

Note that one of them, Values as Assigned by Microsoft, also includes
locales that are not supported by MS, but just have a value assigned.

  Eike

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-01-26 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi Rail,

On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 17:00:16 +0300, Rail Aliev wrote:

 127   az_AZ (Azerbaijani_Azerbaijan)
 
 Currency name was changed after beginning of this year (denominated
 1:5000). Old one is AZM and new one is AZN. AZM will be used till the end
 of this year. So we need to have both in az_AZ.xml

Ok. Please file me ('er') an issue of type ENHANCEMENT for this and
include the following information:

- I assume the new currency uses 2 decimal places?
- What about the currency symbol, is it identical to the old one?
- The native name of the curreny.

 I cannot find the right source describing these changes, but
 http://www.nba.az (National Bank of Azerbaijan) shows AZN as main
 currency symbol now.

Please file also a CLDR bug and inlude all information you have, see the
audit document for pointers. Please report back the CLDR bug ID when
done.

Thanks
  Eike

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[l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-01-25 Thread Eike Rathke
Hi,

I created a new locale data audit document, 320kb
http://l10n.openoffice.org/nonav/i18n_framework/cldr/LocaleDataAudit_OOo202.html

that does a comparison between locale data as of OOo m151 and CLDR 1.3.
For details and description please see the document.

Again, I would like to ask as many people as possible to take a look at
his/her locale whether s/he can spot and name a difference and tell
which one is right. Please use the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list to discuss 
your
findings, or if you have any questions regarding the document.

Thanks
  Eike

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-01-25 Thread Dwayne Bailey
Hi Eike,

1413: This was reported under #645 to CLDR
1414: align to CLDR.  LC_CURRENCY is inherited from en_ZA.  en_ZA should
also be corrected to have CurrencyName=Rand.  So CurrencyName in both
CLDR and OOo for en_ZA is incorrect.

The other South African languages I assume are listed because there is
no CLDR data?

On Wed, 2006-01-25 at 21:22 +0100, Eike Rathke wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I created a new locale data audit document, 320kb
 http://l10n.openoffice.org/nonav/i18n_framework/cldr/LocaleDataAudit_OOo202.html
 
 that does a comparison between locale data as of OOo m151 and CLDR 1.3.
 For details and description please see the document.
 
 Again, I would like to ask as many people as possible to take a look at
 his/her locale whether s/he can spot and name a difference and tell
 which one is right. Please use the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list to discuss 
 your
 findings, or if you have any questions regarding the document.
 
 Thanks
   Eike
 
-- 
Dwayne Bailey
Translate.org.za

+27-12-460-1095 (w)
+27-83-443-7114 (cell)

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Re: [l10n-dev] NEW Locale Data Audit - please participate!

2006-01-25 Thread Samphan Raruenrom

What should be used for CurrencyID?
http://l10n.openoffice.org/nonav/i18n_framework/cldr/LocaleDataAudit_OOo202.html#219
I see inconsistencies between locales.
- bank symbol
- currency symbol
- translated currency name
- currency name in English
I see all cases in the OOo locale. Should we have a standard?

Eike Rathke wrote:

I created a new locale data audit document, 320kb
http://l10n.openoffice.org/nonav/i18n_framework/cldr/LocaleDataAudit_OOo202.html

that does a comparison between locale data as of OOo m151 and CLDR 1.3.
For details and description please see the document.

Again, I would like to ask as many people as possible to take a look at
his/her locale whether s/he can spot and name a difference and tell
which one is right. Please use the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list to discuss 
your
findings, or if you have any questions regarding the document.

--
_/|\_ Samphan Raruenrom. Open Source Development Co., Ltd.
Tel: +66 38 311816, Fax: +66 38 773128, http://www.osdev.co.th/



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