Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On 8/15/05, swhiser wrote: > What's wrong with Marketing that Erwin needs to initiate having a booth in > the .ORG Pavilion? Marketing within OOo tends to reject _all_ ideas that they have not proposed, unless presented fait accompli. At which point they shoot the messenger for deviating from their OOo marketing plan. And OOo marketing couldn't give candy to a two year old, regardless of how hard they tried. xan jonathon -- Does your Office Suite conform to ISO Standards? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
- Original Message - From: "Ian Lynch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday" > This also applies to lobbying government and similar audiences. > I often get told by FOSS advocates that E-mailing government officials > and politicians is a waste of time. I don't think so. I have had a lot > of success and many positive replies including a question asked in the > House of Commons and an investigation of MS by the Office of Fair > trading. Writing is effective if you write the the right things in the > right way for the intended audience. Once again, I find myself agreeing with Ian. When the whole "software patents" issue was looming large in the European Parliament a little while ago, our local Linux Users Group asked members to write to their MEPs (Member of the European Parliament). Rather than writing a "petition", or everyone sending the same letter, we simply asked everyone to "write a letter" in their own words about how the proposals would affect them. I got a long, detailed, response back from "my MEP", outlining his position, explaining that it broadly matched mine, and letting me know how he intended to vote. By comparison, "petitions" seem to be a waste of time, unless your true intention is to get a slot on the local radio station telling everyone that you "presented" it. Mark - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Lars D. Noodén wrote: Thanks. It'd be useful if a transcript of the IRC sessions were kept somewhere on the OOo site, unless there's a strong reason not to have it public. The bi-weekly IRC talks are all on the OOo website: http://native-lang.openoffice.org/conference/ Robin's IRC talk was before I started doing the bi-weekly IRC talks. Indeed, Robin's talk is what gave me the idea. Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) Leave your mark at OpenOffice.org /\/_/ http://oooauthors.org /\/_/ \/_/"The pedant keep things in order, the genious / rules the chaos" -- Sigrid Kronenberger - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Thanks. It'd be useful if a transcript of the IRC sessions were kept somewhere on the OOo site, unless there's a strong reason not to have it public. -Lars Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Software patents harm all Net-based business, write your MEP: http://wwwdb.europarl.eu.int/ep6/owa/p_meps2.repartition?ilg=EN On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Daniel Carrera wrote: [snip] I had an IRC log, but it's been long deleted :-( Newsforge made a log too of the Q&A sesssion. That one is here: http://www.newsforge.com/trends/04/04/25/1411229.shtml - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 20:47 +0100, Daniel Carrera wrote: > > It depends on where you send it. Different outlets have different > > standards, and there is a gray area, as you recognize. However, in > > general, the more that a media outlet prides itself on doing journalism, > > the more likely it would be considered a news release. > > Okay. Where do you think Newsforge lies? Since I've been writing regularly for Newsforge for some months, I feel safe in saying that Robin Miller emphasizes journalism as strongly as he can, and that the staff feels the same way. By contrast, Linux Today seems more willing to publish news releases while marking them as such. > Davide just proposed that we invite Eva Lichtenberger, a Member of the > European Parliamentvery who was active in the campain against software > patents, to give a keynote at OOoCon. Would that be newsworthy without > being a press release? It looks like it to me :-) The announcement wouldn't be news, although her keynote probably would be. What I would suggest is, when she is confirmed, drop a note to media outlets (or to any journalist you've had contact with - and, yes, this is a hint), and help arrange for an interview with her, either as part of a larger story, as you suggest, or as a story in itself. During the course of the interview, it would be very natural to mention that she is speaking at OOoCon. In this way, everyone would win. OOo would get the exposure in the news that it wants, and the media outlet or journalist would get a good story. As an aside, when I was doing PR for high-tech companies, I kept a spreadsheet on all the journalist with whom I dealt. Besides including their contact information, I kept a record of interactions with them, the stories they wrote, and what subjects they were interested in. With this information, I could contact the right people for each story I was trying to get out. -- Bruce Byfield 604-421-7177 http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield "Inspiration and craft plus time and effort minus fear and doubt multiplied by purpose equals song." - Ray Wylie Hubbard. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Bruce Byfield wrote: It depends on where you send it. Different outlets have different standards, and there is a gray area, as you recognize. However, in general, the more that a media outlet prides itself on doing journalism, the more likely it would be considered a news release. Okay. Where do you think Newsforge lies? I could also see some exceptions. For example, if someone was going to make a really revolutionary public statement, or two famous speakers were going to stage a public debate, or something like that, then the announcement would have something that a journalist could work with. Davide just proposed that we invite Eva Lichtenberger, a Member of the European Parliamentvery who was active in the campain against software patents, to give a keynote at OOoCon. Would that be newsworthy without being a press release? It looks like it to me :-) Following Steven's advice, someone could write an article that is primarily about software patents and Eva's keynote, and just incidentally mentions that it'll happen in Slovenia during OOoCon 2005. Would this be a good way to promote OOoCon? Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) Leave your mark at OpenOffice.org /\/_/ /\/_/ OOoAuthors: http://oooauthors.org \/_/Knowledge Base: http://mindmeld.cybersite.com.au/ / - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 18:30 +0100, Daniel Carrera wrote: > Could you explain this part? How can you really tell apart between a > story and a news release? For example, suppose I write a story about > what's planned for OOoCon. Is that a story or a news release? It depends on where you send it. Different outlets have different standards, and there is a gray area, as you recognize. However, in general, the more that a media outlet prides itself on doing journalism, the more likely it would be considered a news release. Exactly why would be harder to explain. I suppose it's because the announcement of an event is rather like vaporware. There's no way a journalist can confirm anything in the story. That said, you might still want to send out the announcement - not in the expectation of getting publicity for the event, but so that the media outlet might report on the actual event. I could also see some exceptions. For example, if someone was going to make a really revolutionary public statement, or two famous speakers were going to stage a public debate, or something like that, then the announcement would have something that a journalist could work with. All of which brings up another point: before sending out a message to the media, you need to know what you want to accomplish, and whether you're likely to. -- Bruce Byfield 604-421.7177 http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Daniel Carrera wrote: Bruce Byfield wrote: At any reputable media outlet, it's also a waste of time to write a story that's really a hidden news release. At Newsforge, for example, I believe that such submissions automatically get bounced. At best, they get put into the NewsVac column. Could you explain this part? How can you really tell apart between a story and a news release? For example, suppose I write a story about what's planned for OOoCon. Is that a story or a news release? That depends, says the former journalist and morning show producer/anchor. :-) If you fill it with what we always called "marketing flack" about how great the product is, use lots of adjectives like "great" and "best" and "most" and "powerful" and "fantastic", or do comparisons against competing products, it gets pitched right away as an attempt at advertising. If you write it in a journalistic style (non-passionate descriptions of who, what, when, where, why, and how...preferably with "inverted pyramid" organization), avoid hype, and mention only your product in passing, it gets at least a look and maybe a slight rewrite. Write it as if you were a journalist completely unattached to the project (either you mention your product only in passing without going into any specifics at all or you also give your competitors something close to equal time) sticking only to the facts, it as often as not gets published without any changes at all. Of course, a lot of this depends on the outlet you're sending it to, as well. -- Steven Shelton Twilight Media & Design www.TwilightMD.com www.GLOAMING.us -=-=-=-=-=- Oo, baby.talk nerdy to me! -=-=-=-=-=- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 10:20 -0700, Bruce Byfield wrote: > But you have to know your market. or audience - same thing really. > Writing > something that's hard to read and full of cliches is one of the quickest > ways to ensure that your news release doesn't get read -- and that means > that your story doesn't get out. In fact, it's a good idea to make sure > that your headline and opening sentence both explain what's interesting > in the story. That way, people are more likely to actually read it. This also applies to lobbying government and similar audiences. I often get told by FOSS advocates that E-mailing government officials and politicians is a waste of time. I don't think so. I have had a lot of success and many positive replies including a question asked in the House of Commons and an investigation of MS by the Office of Fair trading. Writing is effective if you write the the right things in the right way for the intended audience. -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMSL - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Bruce Byfield wrote: At any reputable media outlet, it's also a waste of time to write a story that's really a hidden news release. At Newsforge, for example, I believe that such submissions automatically get bounced. At best, they get put into the NewsVac column. Could you explain this part? How can you really tell apart between a story and a news release? For example, suppose I write a story about what's planned for OOoCon. Is that a story or a news release? Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) Leave your mark at OpenOffice.org /\/_/ /\/_/ OOoAuthors: http://oooauthors.org \/_/Knowledge Base: http://mindmeld.cybersite.com.au/ / - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 12:55 +0100, Daniel Carrera wrote: > > Actually, the main message I got from Robin's talk was that you need to > contact the media persistently. That you can't expect them to just > magically know about the cool new feature in your project. That you have > to be intentional about keeping in touch, and send them stories to talk > about. > > It is better to send a poorly written email about an interesting story > than to send nothing at all. If the recipient likes the story and has > time, he will take care of writing well about it. Don't kill yourself > getting a perfect press release. If you do, you'll probably send very > few press releases. > > Bruce, as someone involved in this, would you agree with this advice? Yes, persistence is essential. It's a common amateur's mistake to think that the media is already aware of your company or organization. Journalists may have heard about your company, but there's a lot to cover, and they can't possibly keep current on everything. As a result, most journalists appreciate a reliable source for good stories. But you have to know your market. I regularly have people asking if I'm interested in reviewing their product, only to find out that it's a proprietary Windows product (I cover Linux and FOSS only). Another important element is making your story interesting. If you look at any site that publishes news releases, you'll see that a surprisingly large number begin with a sentence that's about six lines long, and describes the company as a "world-leader" or something similar. Writing something that's hard to read and full of cliches is one of the quickest ways to ensure that your news release doesn't get read -- and that means that your story doesn't get out. In fact, it's a good idea to make sure that your headline and opening sentence both explain what's interesting in the story. That way, people are more likely to actually read it. At any reputable media outlet, it's also a waste of time to write a story that's really a hidden news release. At Newsforge, for example, I believe that such submissions automatically get bounced. At best, they get put into the NewsVac column. -- Bruce Byfield 604-421.7177 http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Bruce Byfield wrote: On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 05:26 -0400, Lars D. Noodén wrote: Can you point to the URL for the transcript from the IRC seminar? They're very, very, very rarely scheduled at a time when I can be online. I don't know if anyone kept a transcript, although I seem to remember a summary of key points. Daniel, do you remember? I had an IRC log, but it's been long deleted :-( Newsforge made a log too of the Q&A sesssion. That one is here: http://www.newsforge.com/trends/04/04/25/1411229.shtml Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) Leave your mark at OpenOffice.org /\/_/ /\/_/ OOoAuthors: http://oooauthors.org \/_/Knowledge Base: http://mindmeld.cybersite.com.au/ / - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 07:47 -0400, Lars D. Noodén wrote: > On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Bruce Byfield wrote: > [snip] > > That means learning what makes a good story, and making sure that people > > like me hear about it. > > Strife. That's what the mainstream seems to tune into. Take the WWF > (wrestling) style face off with HD DVD (uses MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC, VC-1 > compression) versus Blu-Ray (uses MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC, VC-1 compression). > > OOo could shape something like that. Focus on the strife and discord > threatening to tear up the project over which is most important: that OOo > is open source or that OOo uses open file formats like OpenDocument. You > know the old "floor wax" vs "desert topping" style debate. ;) Strife is one aspect of a good story. Human interest is another. But all good stories come down to explaining why readers should be interested in the topic. I came across a good example in Saturday's Globe and Mail. The article was about elderly people and the difficulty they found in giving up driving. The story focused on one man. If the story was just about that one man, I would have read it and thought that the article described a tragedy for the man and his family, but wondered why so much space was devoted to it. Probably, I would have skimmed. However, just about the point where I would have started skimming, the article began to show how the man was representative of a problem that is starting to get worse because of our aging population. That answered the question of why I should be interested, and kept me reading to the end of the article. That's what OOo needs to do. It's not enough just to announce new features -- readers have to know why they should care about the features. -- Bruce Byfield 604-421.7177 http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 05:23 -0400, Lars D. Noodén wrote: > If there is a group doing liaison with the media, then I think that Bruce > and Daniel should be among those in the group. Both have been active and > write well rather consistently. Thanks for the vote of confidence. However, I think I have to decline. I'll gladly help with advice, either on an ongoing basis or with seminars on relevant topics. However, my credibility as a journalist covering OpenOffice.org would be lessened if I were writing news releases for the project. E-mail from readers suggest that I'm regarded as sympathetic to OOo, but independent enough to point out flaws and criticize where necessary (and this is certainly the position I've tried to cultivate). Moreover, I'd be in conflict of interest if I were both covering OOo as news and doing PR for the project. I wouldn't feel right about that, and I doubt my editors would, either. For these reasons, I think that both OOo and I would be better served if I kept my help to an advisory role. -- Bruce Byfield 604-421.7177 http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Lars D. Noodén wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Bruce Byfield wrote: That means learning what makes a good story, and making sure that people like me hear about it. Strife. That's what the mainstream seems to tune into. Actually, the main message I got from Robin's talk was that you need to contact the media persistently. That you can't expect them to just magically know about the cool new feature in your project. That you have to be intentional about keeping in touch, and send them stories to talk about. It is better to send a poorly written email about an interesting story than to send nothing at all. If the recipient likes the story and has time, he will take care of writing well about it. Don't kill yourself getting a perfect press release. If you do, you'll probably send very few press releases. Bruce, as someone involved in this, would you agree with this advice? OOo could shape something like that. Focus on the strife and discord threatening to tear up the project over which is most important: that OOo is open source or that OOo uses open file formats like OpenDocument. Heh, sure, why not. Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) Leave your mark at OpenOffice.org /\/_/ /\/_/ OOoAuthors: http://oooauthors.org \/_/Knowledge Base: http://mindmeld.cybersite.com.au/ / - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Bruce Byfield wrote: [snip] That means learning what makes a good story, and making sure that people like me hear about it. Strife. That's what the mainstream seems to tune into. Take the WWF (wrestling) style face off with HD DVD (uses MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC, VC-1 compression) versus Blu-Ray (uses MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC, VC-1 compression). OOo could shape something like that. Focus on the strife and discord threatening to tear up the project over which is most important: that OOo is open source or that OOo uses open file formats like OpenDocument. You know the old "floor wax" vs "desert topping" style debate. ;) [snip] In the last 18 months, I've earned a fair chunk of income from writing about OpenOffice.org, but every one of the four or five dozen articles I've written about OOo has been initiated by me. [snip] I've read most of them, even before they are announced here, they are quite good and I find them useful enough to forward to people I know. Writing consistently well is difficult. -Lars Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Software patents harm all Net-based business, write your MEP: http://wwwdb.europarl.eu.int/ep6/owa/p_meps2.repartition?ilg=EN - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Bruce Byfield wrote: Yes, now that you remind me, you did. Unfortunately, being PR liasion would be a full-time effort. I think you could do the job, but you're focused on other things, and so far haven't got around to being cloned. :-) Yes, I have my hands pretty full without getting into marketing. If you're thinking of the same case as I am, she wasn't working on a news release, but a story, and her work was pre-empted by another story on the same topic. No, different case. :-) But I'm under the impression you were there on IRC for the one I mean. Not sure... Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) Leave your mark at OpenOffice.org /\/_/ /\/_/ OOoAuthors: http://oooauthors.org \/_/Knowledge Base: http://mindmeld.cybersite.com.au/ / - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Louis Suarez-Potts wrote: This is false, that getting a press release is a bureaucratic effort. Well, whatever the reason might be, I pointed to an actual event where a friend (Becca) worked very hard to get a press release for something we felt was important, and she felt shot down. And that was the last time she tried to contribute at OOo. Perhaps I mis-used the word bureocracy. But you are practiced at spreading FUD of this sort. As far as I can tell, you blame essentially nonexistent bureaucracy when you get impatient. I'm tired of that strategy. Hey, relax. How do you figure that this has to do with my being impatient? I didn't say that the problem was that OOo reacted slowly. The problem here was that she worked hard in an effort t ocontribute, and she felt her efforts were not appreciated. Incidentally, FUD stands for "fear uncertainty and doubt". I don't know how you figure I was spreading fear, or promoting uncertainty and doubt. I wish people would not use "FUD" to mean "you're wrong". For example, right here you were wrong about the problem I was referring to. Should I say that you're spreading FUD about me? I think it would be more productive to look at what went wrong, and what can be done in the future to improve. That would be a more positive reaction. For what it is worth, the press release process is actually quite simple--as are many things in OOo. The process might be simple to describe. For example, you can say "discuss it in the pr list, and when you agree, send it over". But the actual dynamics might still not work well. If you would like to be convinced, take a look at the facts. I have pointed to a fact. :-) Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) Leave your mark at OpenOffice.org /\/_/ /\/_/ OOoAuthors: http://oooauthors.org \/_/Knowledge Base: http://mindmeld.cybersite.com.au/ / - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Can you point to the URL for the transcript from the IRC seminar? They're very, very, very rarely scheduled at a time when I can be online. -Lars Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Software patents harm all Net-based business, write your MEP: http://wwwdb.europarl.eu.int/ep6/owa/p_meps2.repartition?ilg=EN On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Bruce Byfield wrote: [snip] OOo had a good start about 15 months ago when Robin Miller from the OSTG group (Newsforge, Slashdot) gave an IRC seminar in how to write an effective news release. Unfortunately, nobody in OOo seems to have taken what he said to heart. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
If there is a group doing liaison with the media, then I think that Bruce and Daniel should be among those in the group. Both have been active and write well rather consistently. Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Software patents harm all Net-based business, write your MEP: http://wwwdb.europarl.eu.int/ep6/owa/p_meps2.repartition?ilg=EN - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 23:58 -0400, Louis Suarez-Potts wrote: > On Aug 15, 2005, at 8:25 PM, Daniel Carrera wrote: > > > Bruce Byfield wrote: > > > > > >> OOo had a good start about 15 months ago when Robin Miller from > >> the OSTG > >> group (Newsforge, Slashdot) gave an IRC seminar in how to write an > >> effective news release. Unfortunately, nobody in OOo seems to have > >> taken > >> what he said to heart. > >> > > > > I did. But trying to get a press release or an article through all > > the bureocracy is an exercise in frustration. I know of one > > volunteer who quit because she worked very hard for days on a press > > release that would have made interesting news and her work was > > promptly shot down. > > This is false, that getting a press release is a bureaucratic effort. Why do people assume bureaucracy = evil? Some bureaucracy is necessary in running any organisation. Some bureaucratic effort is bound to be necessary from time to time. Its a by definition thing. You can't organise without some organisational bureaucracy. The real issue is whether or not the systems and procedures are perceived to get in the way or not. People are not generally motivated by procedures but they can be de-motivated by them even if the procedure itself is not the fundamental issue but perceived to be. The strongest motivator is recognition of their work. If that is true in paid work, its doubly true in volunteer work. If someone quit because she perceived her work was under-valued, whatever the rational explanation, the outcome is that she is a lost resource. The management equation becomes whether that person's work is in fact of such little consequence that she can go and no-one will worry. If on the otherhand that person's work is valuable, the leadership task is to keep them motivated. Ironically, applying logic to emotional issues is rather more difficult when one is part of the emotional matrix which is, I guess why companies pay a lot to external management consultants who can see things with detachment. -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMSL - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Sam, I can't tell if you are trolling or just being yourself. Either way, it's unpleasant. As far as I can tell, your point--that we are wallowing in hopelessness--is false and an insult. On Aug 15, 2005, at 11:58 AM, swhiser wrote: Adam Moore wrote: Hold on a second. We can't be everywhere all the time. People go to these conferences and some if not most don't get paid for it. The fact that we didn't have a booth at LWE SF is not a huge loss to me, but we are a large enough project to have one. Unfortunately we are not a well funded enough project to create a good booth. And some of these booths, not LWSF, require to be paid for and not a cheap sum. I agree with Simon that we could of had a booth and sold t-shirts and probably would have made a reasonable sum of money, but we didn't. We did have volunteers and we should thank them for doing what they did, because it was probably all they could do. Sam your posts lately seem of deep disinterest bread by hopelessness. Keep the faith, everything goes through ups and downs and we just need to find a good income stream to be able to support these conferences. As far as going through a 2.0 launch I am sure alot of the people there have heard of or tried the 2.0 beta, Fedora Core 4 ships with it installed, so most of the questions will be when is it going to be released. At least that was my experience at OSCON. This is an answer we really can't give them especially in the marketing department as we can't say how fast our coders will work. Which brings me back to my previous point. We need at least one developer at these conferences. That would make the biggest difference of them all. Adam- This response just reflects how lost the project is. We, volunteers, always got ourselves there -- we did it OURSELVES. You all seem to be waiting for handouts. This reflects an utter lack of passion. LWE is where users, developers and THE TECHNOLOGY PRESS catch up on what's going on with the software and the project. Apparently, on the eve of 2.0 Final, NOTHING is going on! -Sam Do recall that you were partly funded by Sun to do PR work for them. You also used OOo to directly aid your consulting company; perhaps you continue to, I haven't checked recently. I'm sure you have passion. But describing yourself as a somehow independent volunteer here is a bit of a stretch. Cheers, Louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Aug 15, 2005, at 8:25 PM, Daniel Carrera wrote: Bruce Byfield wrote: OOo had a good start about 15 months ago when Robin Miller from the OSTG group (Newsforge, Slashdot) gave an IRC seminar in how to write an effective news release. Unfortunately, nobody in OOo seems to have taken what he said to heart. I did. But trying to get a press release or an article through all the bureocracy is an exercise in frustration. I know of one volunteer who quit because she worked very hard for days on a press release that would have made interesting news and her work was promptly shot down. This is false, that getting a press release is a bureaucratic effort. But you are practiced at spreading FUD of this sort. As far as I can tell, you blame essentially nonexistent bureaucracy when you get impatient. I'm tired of that strategy. For what it is worth, the press release process is actually quite simple--as are many things in OOo. If you would like to be convinced, take a look at the facts. Check out the process on [EMAIL PROTECTED] The latest round, initiated by Craig Adams, who has penned more than a few press releases, is archived here: http://marketing.openoffice.org/servlets/BrowseList? listName=pr&by=date&from=2005-07-01&to=2005-07-31&first=1&count=33 It reflects collaboration, not bureaucracy. Cheers Louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On 8/15/05, Bruce Byfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 01:25 +0100, Daniel Carrera wrote: > > Bruce Byfield wrote: > > > > > OOo had a good start about 15 months ago when Robin Miller from the OSTG > > > group (Newsforge, Slashdot) gave an IRC seminar in how to write an > > > effective news release. Unfortunately, nobody in OOo seems to have taken > > > what he said to heart. > > > > I did. But trying to get a press release or an article through all the > > bureocracy is an exercise in frustration. I know of one volunteer who > > quit because she worked very hard for days on a press release that would > > have made interesting news and her work was promptly shot down. > > Yes, now that you remind me, you did. Unfortunately, being PR liasion > would be a full-time effort. I think you could do the job, but you're > focused on other things, and so far haven't got around to being cloned. > > Maybe a group working full-time on media contact is what's needed. A > regular group that had proven itself to the project might eventually be > able to get news out more quickly. > > If you're thinking of the same case as I am, she wasn't working on a > news release, but a story, and her work was pre-empted by another story > on the same topic. > > That was unfortunate, but such things happen sometimes. However, they > happen much less frequently if editors know a writer and have learned to > trust them from past performance. This is part of what I mean about > building a relationship with media people. > > But, at any rate, a story isn't a news release, although many companies > try to blur the distinction and less reputable journalists are only too > happy to go along with them. What OOo needs isn't someone to write > stories so much as someone to provide the bare bones of stories, either > through writing news releases or announcing that they are available for > interviews. That means developing a sense of what makes a story, knowing > what type of story appeals to different people in the media, and then > delivering the facts that can be shaped into a story as quickly as > possible. > > -- > Bruce Byfield 604-421.7177 > http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield > Good words Bruce, I am currently reading a book on how to conduct PR through the media and your statements really hit home with this book. I like your idea of the PR group working with media contact. *If* anything like this does develop I think this should be a voted on position. I would like the ability for us to somewhat control who says what. By no means do I mean to make this more beureaucratic, the voted on group can make decisions on their own, I would just like it to be a set of trusted individuals. -- Adam Moore Community Volunteer OOo blog: AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 01:25 +0100, Daniel Carrera wrote: > Bruce Byfield wrote: > > > OOo had a good start about 15 months ago when Robin Miller from the OSTG > > group (Newsforge, Slashdot) gave an IRC seminar in how to write an > > effective news release. Unfortunately, nobody in OOo seems to have taken > > what he said to heart. > > I did. But trying to get a press release or an article through all the > bureocracy is an exercise in frustration. I know of one volunteer who > quit because she worked very hard for days on a press release that would > have made interesting news and her work was promptly shot down. Yes, now that you remind me, you did. Unfortunately, being PR liasion would be a full-time effort. I think you could do the job, but you're focused on other things, and so far haven't got around to being cloned. Maybe a group working full-time on media contact is what's needed. A regular group that had proven itself to the project might eventually be able to get news out more quickly. If you're thinking of the same case as I am, she wasn't working on a news release, but a story, and her work was pre-empted by another story on the same topic. That was unfortunate, but such things happen sometimes. However, they happen much less frequently if editors know a writer and have learned to trust them from past performance. This is part of what I mean about building a relationship with media people. But, at any rate, a story isn't a news release, although many companies try to blur the distinction and less reputable journalists are only too happy to go along with them. What OOo needs isn't someone to write stories so much as someone to provide the bare bones of stories, either through writing news releases or announcing that they are available for interviews. That means developing a sense of what makes a story, knowing what type of story appeals to different people in the media, and then delivering the facts that can be shaped into a story as quickly as possible. -- Bruce Byfield 604-421.7177 http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Bruce Byfield wrote: OOo had a good start about 15 months ago when Robin Miller from the OSTG group (Newsforge, Slashdot) gave an IRC seminar in how to write an effective news release. Unfortunately, nobody in OOo seems to have taken what he said to heart. I did. But trying to get a press release or an article through all the bureocracy is an exercise in frustration. I know of one volunteer who quit because she worked very hard for days on a press release that would have made interesting news and her work was promptly shot down. Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) Leave your mark at OpenOffice.org /\/_/ /\/_/ OOoAuthors: http://oooauthors.org \/_/Knowledge Base: http://mindmeld.cybersite.com.au/ / - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 00:15 +0100, Deepankar Datta wrote: > You mention that the project is lost. Maybe this would be an > interesting discussion on how to get things 'on track'. What would you > change? To start with, the Marketing project needs to get a lot more savvy about how to attract the attention of people in the media. That means learning what makes a good story, and making sure that people like me hear about it. Neither of these are happening. In the last 18 months, I've earned a fair chunk of income from writing about OpenOffice.org, but every one of the four or five dozen articles I've written about OOo has been initiated by me. I've asked several times to be put on a media list, but I have never had a story lead as a direct result of a news release or private heads-up. The closest I've come is learning of an event on a mailing list, or taking a suggestion (with credit) from an off-hand comment. I don't mention this because I want OOo to do my work for me . Yet consider that, in the tech press in general and the open source press in particular, I'm one of the writers who is most interested in covering OpenOffice.org. If I don't hear anything official about what's happening, you can be fairly sure that nobody else does, either. And, since most other writers don't have my interest, they aren't likely to dig for a story, either. For that matter, even with my interest, I can't keep up with everything in the project, because I have other things to write about as well. OOo had a good start about 15 months ago when Robin Miller from the OSTG group (Newsforge, Slashdot) gave an IRC seminar in how to write an effective news release. Unfortunately, nobody in OOo seems to have taken what he said to heart. -- Bruce Byfield 604-421.7177 http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On 8/15/05, Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 11:58 -0400, swhiser wrote: > > > Adam- > > This response just reflects how lost the project is. We, volunteers, > > always got ourselves there -- we did it OURSELVES. > > Me and Adam were in LA. I was at LUG Radio and Flossie recently. > > > You all seem to be > > waiting for handouts. > > Not me. I'm planning to be able to give out the handouts - well in a > small way already done. NEA presence was paid for by me and the INGOTs. > Daniel is working full time now on the Website and we have made a small > contribution to OOoConf. I think I have been reasonably consistent in > saying that we need an income stream to help in these situations and I > have not asked anyone for any handouts in this respect. Neither has Adam > as far as I know. Thanks Ian, that last comment from Sam hurts. I provide help in many ways other than conferences and I never ask for handouts, other than asking for donations for the conferences from companies for example sub300.com . I have been lucky enough to be able to be supported lately, but I have never insinuated or directly asked for help. > > > This reflects an utter lack of passion. > > Maybe the passion varies across people. I'm fairly passionate but I'm > also pretty rational and realistic. Its taking time to develop a > business model from scratch that can fund some of these things but so > far its worked at least to some extent and I hope this is just a > beginning. I can guarantee that my wife can profess my passion to this. > > > LWE is where users, developers and THE TECHNOLOGY PRESS catch up on > > what's going on with the software and the project. > > Apparently, on the eve of 2.0 Final, NOTHING is going on! > > All I know is there is a lot going on in the circles I'm in! So much I'm > struggling to keep it all going. > > Good and constructive meeting with Mark Shuttleworth this afternoon, I would really like to know what happened here. :) and > Daniel got to see the London Science Museum, Houses of Parliament, Big > Ben, Buckingham Palace, Trafalgar Square and Tower Bridge. And we didn't > get blown up on the Undergound so a pretty good day ;-) Good for Daniel. Has he got to see you play rugby? I'd like to see if your as good as you make yourself out to be. ;) > > Regards, > -- > Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > ZMSL > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Adam Moore Community Volunteer OOo blog: AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Hi This response just reflects how lost the project is. We, volunteers, always got ourselves there -- we did it OURSELVES. You all seem to be waiting for handouts. This reflects an utter lack of passion. LWE is where users, developers and THE TECHNOLOGY PRESS catch up on what's going on with the software and the project. Apparently, on the eve of 2.0 Final, NOTHING is going on! -Sam You mention that the project is lost. Maybe this would be an interesting discussion on how to get things 'on track'. What would you change? I know there is a lot of things going on at the moment with the project, and that there now seem to be 2 main forks of the project (at novell and ibm). Maybe after 2.0 it would be a good idea to get ideas from everyone on any organizational changes that are needed to help the project to be successful - esp. from the developer and marketing point of view - and to try and persuade the forks to re-merge. It would be better if we could start getting more people interested and involved in the project, with a clear idea of what is going on, esp. with regards to attracting new talent. Just some ideas. Deepankar ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 23:29 +0100, Simon Phipps wrote: > On Aug 15, 2005, at 23:21, Ian Lynch wrote: > > > On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 09:25 -0400, swhiser wrote: > > > >> I will comment on my own post... > >> > >> This must be true if we are headed into the OOo 2.0 launch !!! and > >> having a booth at LWE SANFRANCISCO!!! gets dropped...YOU'VE GOT TO BE > >> KIDDING ME!!! > >> > >> -Sam > > > > I thought I heard somewhere that since Sun had open sourced Solaris it > > was concentrating on Java Desktop on Solaris and not on Linux. Maybe > > that was wrong but it would explain a lower commitment to Linux shows. > > Any Sun people know if there is any substance to this? > > Sun is still supporting Linux, it is a key platform for the new Network > Systems Group in Sun. Sun had a big stand at LWE San Francisco which > was continually over-run with interested guests - see > http://www.flickr.com/photos/webmink/33972945/ That's good to here. Thanks, Simon. -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMSL - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 11:58 -0400, swhiser wrote: > Adam- > This response just reflects how lost the project is. We, volunteers, > always got ourselves there -- we did it OURSELVES. Me and Adam were in LA. I was at LUG Radio and Flossie recently. > You all seem to be > waiting for handouts. Not me. I'm planning to be able to give out the handouts - well in a small way already done. NEA presence was paid for by me and the INGOTs. Daniel is working full time now on the Website and we have made a small contribution to OOoConf. I think I have been reasonably consistent in saying that we need an income stream to help in these situations and I have not asked anyone for any handouts in this respect. Neither has Adam as far as I know. > This reflects an utter lack of passion. Maybe the passion varies across people. I'm fairly passionate but I'm also pretty rational and realistic. Its taking time to develop a business model from scratch that can fund some of these things but so far its worked at least to some extent and I hope this is just a beginning. > LWE is where users, developers and THE TECHNOLOGY PRESS catch up on > what's going on with the software and the project. > Apparently, on the eve of 2.0 Final, NOTHING is going on! All I know is there is a lot going on in the circles I'm in! So much I'm struggling to keep it all going. Good and constructive meeting with Mark Shuttleworth this afternoon, and Daniel got to see the London Science Museum, Houses of Parliament, Big Ben, Buckingham Palace, Trafalgar Square and Tower Bridge. And we didn't get blown up on the Undergound so a pretty good day ;-) Regards, -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMSL - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Aug 15, 2005, at 23:21, Ian Lynch wrote: On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 09:25 -0400, swhiser wrote: I will comment on my own post... This must be true if we are headed into the OOo 2.0 launch !!! and having a booth at LWE SANFRANCISCO!!! gets dropped...YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!! -Sam I thought I heard somewhere that since Sun had open sourced Solaris it was concentrating on Java Desktop on Solaris and not on Linux. Maybe that was wrong but it would explain a lower commitment to Linux shows. Any Sun people know if there is any substance to this? Sun is still supporting Linux, it is a key platform for the new Network Systems Group in Sun. Sun had a big stand at LWE San Francisco which was continually over-run with interested guests - see http://www.flickr.com/photos/webmink/33972945/ S. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 09:25 -0400, swhiser wrote: > I will comment on my own post... > > This must be true if we are headed into the OOo 2.0 launch !!! and > having a booth at LWE SANFRANCISCO!!! gets dropped...YOU'VE GOT TO BE > KIDDING ME!!! > > -Sam I thought I heard somewhere that since Sun had open sourced Solaris it was concentrating on Java Desktop on Solaris and not on Linux. Maybe that was wrong but it would explain a lower commitment to Linux shows. Any Sun people know if there is any substance to this? -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMSL - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
> This response just reflects how lost the project is. We, volunteers, > always got ourselves there -- we did it OURSELVES. You all seem to be > waiting for handouts. This reflects an utter lack of passion. > LWE is where users, developers and THE TECHNOLOGY PRESS catch up on > what's going on with the software and the project. > Apparently, on the eve of 2.0 Final, NOTHING is going on! > -Sam Sam -- it's good to see you back on list, buddy :). I will say, Sam, that I know several of us volunteers are lucky to have enough money to drive our car to work everyday -- that trips cross-country are impossible. I think we have a major issue with lack of funding. I see all these things, things that could be great, but there is no money to implement it. Passion is one thing, Sam... ability to act on it is another. -- Jason Faulkner OldOs.org Owner/Admin / http://oldos.org / [EMAIL PROTECTED] Certified INGOTS Gold Assessor Trainer / http://www.theingots.org OpenOffice.org Marketing Volunteer / [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Adam Moore wrote: Hold on a second. We can't be everywhere all the time. People go to these conferences and some if not most don't get paid for it. The fact that we didn't have a booth at LWE SF is not a huge loss to me, but we are a large enough project to have one. Unfortunately we are not a well funded enough project to create a good booth. And some of these booths, not LWSF, require to be paid for and not a cheap sum. I agree with Simon that we could of had a booth and sold t-shirts and probably would have made a reasonable sum of money, but we didn't. We did have volunteers and we should thank them for doing what they did, because it was probably all they could do. Sam your posts lately seem of deep disinterest bread by hopelessness. Keep the faith, everything goes through ups and downs and we just need to find a good income stream to be able to support these conferences. As far as going through a 2.0 launch I am sure alot of the people there have heard of or tried the 2.0 beta, Fedora Core 4 ships with it installed, so most of the questions will be when is it going to be released. At least that was my experience at OSCON. This is an answer we really can't give them especially in the marketing department as we can't say how fast our coders will work. Which brings me back to my previous point. We need at least one developer at these conferences. That would make the biggest difference of them all. Adam- This response just reflects how lost the project is. We, volunteers, always got ourselves there -- we did it OURSELVES. You all seem to be waiting for handouts. This reflects an utter lack of passion. LWE is where users, developers and THE TECHNOLOGY PRESS catch up on what's going on with the software and the project. Apparently, on the eve of 2.0 Final, NOTHING is going on! -Sam On 8/15/05, swhiser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: swhiser wrote: Daniel Carrera wrote: Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: I guess, I could have said explicitly on the list that Sun will not have an OpenOffice.org pod at LinuxWorld SF this year. At the same time I could have encouraged people to setup an OpenOffice.org pod in the .org pavillion. I would go even further. What's wrong with Marketing that Erwin needs to initiate having a booth in the .ORG Pavilion? I'd say it's symptomatic of deep disinterest bread by hopelessness. -Sam I will comment on my own post... This must be true if we are headed into the OOo 2.0 launch !!! and having a booth at LWE SANFRANCISCO!!! gets dropped...YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!! -Sam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Hold on a second. We can't be everywhere all the time. People go to these conferences and some if not most don't get paid for it. The fact that we didn't have a booth at LWE SF is not a huge loss to me, but we are a large enough project to have one. Unfortunately we are not a well funded enough project to create a good booth. And some of these booths, not LWSF, require to be paid for and not a cheap sum. I agree with Simon that we could of had a booth and sold t-shirts and probably would have made a reasonable sum of money, but we didn't. We did have volunteers and we should thank them for doing what they did, because it was probably all they could do. Sam your posts lately seem of deep disinterest bread by hopelessness. Keep the faith, everything goes through ups and downs and we just need to find a good income stream to be able to support these conferences. As far as going through a 2.0 launch I am sure alot of the people there have heard of or tried the 2.0 beta, Fedora Core 4 ships with it installed, so most of the questions will be when is it going to be released. At least that was my experience at OSCON. This is an answer we really can't give them especially in the marketing department as we can't say how fast our coders will work. Which brings me back to my previous point. We need at least one developer at these conferences. That would make the biggest difference of them all. On 8/15/05, swhiser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > swhiser wrote: > > > Daniel Carrera wrote: > > > >> Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: > >> > >>> I guess, I could have said explicitly on the list that Sun will > >>> not have an OpenOffice.org pod at LinuxWorld SF this year. At > >>> the same time I could have encouraged people to setup an > >>> OpenOffice.org pod in the .org pavillion. > >> > >> > >> > > I would go even further. What's wrong with Marketing that Erwin needs > > to initiate having a booth in the .ORG Pavilion? I'd say it's > > symptomatic of deep disinterest bread by hopelessness. > > -Sam > > > I will comment on my own post... > > This must be true if we are headed into the OOo 2.0 launch !!! and > having a booth at LWE SANFRANCISCO!!! gets dropped...YOU'VE GOT TO BE > KIDDING ME!!! > > -Sam -- Adam Moore Community Volunteer OOo blog: AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
swhiser wrote: Daniel Carrera wrote: Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: I guess, I could have said explicitly on the list that Sun will not have an OpenOffice.org pod at LinuxWorld SF this year. At the same time I could have encouraged people to setup an OpenOffice.org pod in the .org pavillion. I would go even further. What's wrong with Marketing that Erwin needs to initiate having a booth in the .ORG Pavilion? I'd say it's symptomatic of deep disinterest bread by hopelessness. -Sam I will comment on my own post... This must be true if we are headed into the OOo 2.0 launch !!! and having a booth at LWE SANFRANCISCO!!! gets dropped...YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!! -Sam I wouldn't even go that far. No one here should assume that Sun would be present and have an OOo booth. So, a note saying "we will not have an OOo pod" should not be necessary. Nor should we depend on Sun to encourage us, or remind us of, an important conference. OOo's own marketing project should take the initiative. These are basic things that OOo should be able to do itself. I think it would be healthy to /not/ go terribly out of your way for this sort of thing, to help reduce this dependence. Cheers, Daniel. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Daniel Carrera wrote: Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: I guess, I could have said explicitly on the list that Sun will not have an OpenOffice.org pod at LinuxWorld SF this year. At the same time I could have encouraged people to setup an OpenOffice.org pod in the .org pavillion. I would go even further. What's wrong with Marketing that Erwin needs to initiate having a booth in the .ORG Pavilion? I'd say it's symptomatic of deep disinterest bread by hopelessness. -Sam I wouldn't even go that far. No one here should assume that Sun would be present and have an OOo booth. So, a note saying "we will not have an OOo pod" should not be necessary. Nor should we depend on Sun to encourage us, or remind us of, an important conference. OOo's own marketing project should take the initiative. These are basic things that OOo should be able to do itself. I think it would be healthy to /not/ go terribly out of your way for this sort of thing, to help reduce this dependence. Cheers, Daniel. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: Hi all, I just wanted to provide you with some background information from my point of view on this topic. A few weeks ago when someone raised the question about attending LinuxWorld SF, I checked with Sun's desktop group event marketing person if we could/would have an OpenOffice.org pod again. The decision was made to have a much smaller presence at LinuwWorld this year. Therefore, I did not offer any booth space. I did not want to raise expectations that Sun would probably not be able to meet. In addition, at LinuxWorld Boston earlier this year it was impossible to get any volunteers to help with the OpenOffice.org pod on the Sun booth (admitting that there was also an OpenOffice.org booth in the .org pavillion in parallel). Maybe we're a bit thin on the ground in the east. However if SUN is ever up to flying a willing Kiwi not quite half way round the world to show off the Global spread of OOo at a conference. I'm definitely willing! :) I guess, I could have said explicitly on the list that Sun will not have an OpenOffice.org pod at LinuxWorld SF this year. At the same time I could have encouraged people to setup an OpenOffice.org pod in the .org pavillion. BTW, do we still have an official marketing lead for the San Francisco area??? As I said, I should have proactively announced that Sun would not have an OpenOffice.org pod at LinuxWorld SF, but I also have to say that nobody ever asked me if Sun would have an OpenOffice.org pod at LinuxWorld SF. Therefore, I'm a bit surprised about some of the reactions in the press and verbally via people who did go to LinuxWorld SF. And we never asked the question Erwin, not your problem. I'm with Daniel on this. What are the next events we have to keep in mind? From a European perspective EuroOSCON in Amsterdam and LinuxWorld Frankfurt come to my mind in addition to the OpenOffice.org Conference in Slovenia. I'm trying to find a Microsoft conf/Event. Maybe we need an events calendar on the marketing project pages where we list event "ownership" for each of the events to make sure that we cover the important ones. +1 Cheers, Erwin Cheers Yo -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Office Technologies) www.theingots.org Blog: yorick.edublogs.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Daniel Carrera wrote: Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: I guess, I could have said explicitly on the list that Sun will not have an OpenOffice.org pod at LinuxWorld SF this year. At the same time I could have encouraged people to setup an OpenOffice.org pod in the .org pavillion. I wouldn't even go that far. No one here should assume that Sun would be present and have an OOo booth. So, a note saying "we will not have an OOo pod" should not be necessary. Nor should we depend on Sun to encourage us, or remind us of, an important conference. OOo's own marketing project should take the initiative. These are basic things that OOo should be able to do itself. I think it would be healthy to /not/ go terribly out of your way for this sort of thing, to help reduce this dependence. Cheers, Daniel. +1 -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Office Technologies) www.theingots.org Blog: yorick.edublogs.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: I guess, I could have said explicitly on the list that Sun will not have an OpenOffice.org pod at LinuxWorld SF this year. At the same time I could have encouraged people to setup an OpenOffice.org pod in the .org pavillion. I wouldn't even go that far. No one here should assume that Sun would be present and have an OOo booth. So, a note saying "we will not have an OOo pod" should not be necessary. Nor should we depend on Sun to encourage us, or remind us of, an important conference. OOo's own marketing project should take the initiative. These are basic things that OOo should be able to do itself. I think it would be healthy to /not/ go terribly out of your way for this sort of thing, to help reduce this dependence. Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) Leave your mark at OpenOffice.org /\/_/ /\/_/ OOoAuthors: http://oooauthors.org \/_/Knowledge Base: http://mindmeld.cybersite.com.au/ / - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Hi all, I just wanted to provide you with some background information from my point of view on this topic. A few weeks ago when someone raised the question about attending LinuxWorld SF, I checked with Sun's desktop group event marketing person if we could/would have an OpenOffice.org pod again. The decision was made to have a much smaller presence at LinuwWorld this year. Therefore, I did not offer any booth space. I did not want to raise expectations that Sun would probably not be able to meet. In addition, at LinuxWorld Boston earlier this year it was impossible to get any volunteers to help with the OpenOffice.org pod on the Sun booth (admitting that there was also an OpenOffice.org booth in the .org pavillion in parallel). I guess, I could have said explicitly on the list that Sun will not have an OpenOffice.org pod at LinuxWorld SF this year. At the same time I could have encouraged people to setup an OpenOffice.org pod in the .org pavillion. BTW, do we still have an official marketing lead for the San Francisco area??? As I said, I should have proactively announced that Sun would not have an OpenOffice.org pod at LinuxWorld SF, but I also have to say that nobody ever asked me if Sun would have an OpenOffice.org pod at LinuxWorld SF. Therefore, I'm a bit surprised about some of the reactions in the press and verbally via people who did go to LinuxWorld SF. What are the next events we have to keep in mind? From a European perspective EuroOSCON in Amsterdam and LinuxWorld Frankfurt come to my mind in addition to the OpenOffice.org Conference in Slovenia. Maybe we need an events calendar on the marketing project pages where we list event "ownership" for each of the events to make sure that we cover the important ones. Cheers, Erwin Graham Lauder wrote: Deepankar Datta wrote: Hi This is a round up of the linuxworld 2005 expo written by an attendee, with a sort of negative slant on OOo not attending, seen in these choice quotes: "But the biggest surprise wasn't who was there, but who wasn't--the OpenOffice.org folks." "The bottom line is that not having a booth hurts OpenOffice.org in particular, and the whole Open Source movement in general." The author also goes into Sun's relationship and licencing of OOo, and IBM's own deriviative. An interesting read, and the marketing lessons might be something to think about for the future. Deepankar Unfortunately, he is right It was raised on the list back in May http://marketing.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=20446 Something flew under the radar here. Are we seeing the beginning of the distancing of SUN from OOo. Or is it simply that we have become so used to Erwin coming onto the list and asking for volunteers, that when he didn't this time we just missed it? Have we become too reliant on SUN people hand feeding us this sort of stuff? Do we need a conference team as part of the marketing project whose responsibility it is to keep the radar up for this sort of thing? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Ah yes I was here for that. :) On 8/14/05, Graham Lauder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Adam Moore wrote: > > >On 8/14/05, Graham Lauder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >>Adam Moore wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>I specifically did not go because I don't feel it's the best place to > >>>spend our time. These people already know OpenOffice. Being at OSCON > >>>I kind of discovered that the best people to be there are developers. > >>>Since a great deal of our developers are not from the western United > >>>States it would be difficult to have a contingency there. > >>> > >>>What questions would he have asked? I don't think people go to > >>>linuxworld to find out what OpenOffice is. They already know. Their > >>>questions are more tech support specific and something that I think > >>>not all of us are prepared to answer. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>I agree and if you remember I started a discussion on the list with a > >>similar comment with regard to Linux Confs and where we need to focus, > >>back in February. > >> > >>My comments then still apply. > >>-- > >>Graham Lauder, > >>OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ > >>http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html > >> > >>INGOTs Assessor Trainer > >>(International Grades in Office Technologies) > >>www.theingots.org > >> > >>Blog: yorick.edublogs.org > >> > >> > > > >I'll have to take the time to look back. I wasn't on the list till > >the end of February. ;) > > > > > > > It all started here > http://marketing.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgId=1774032 > > Cheers > Yo > > -- > Graham Lauder, > OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ > http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html > > INGOTs Assessor Trainer > (International Grades in Office Technologies) > www.theingots.org > > Blog: yorick.edublogs.org > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Adam Moore Community Volunteer OOo blog: AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On 8/14/05, swhiser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Adam Moore wrote: > > >On 8/14/05, Graham Lauder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >>Adam Moore wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>I specifically did not go because I don't feel it's the best place to > >>>spend our time. These people already know OpenOffice. Being at OSCON > >>>I kind of discovered that the best people to be there are developers. > >>>Since a great deal of our developers are not from the western United > >>>States it would be difficult to have a contingency there. > >>> > >>>What questions would he have asked? I don't think people go to > >>>linuxworld to find out what OpenOffice is. They already know. Their > >>>questions are more tech support specific and something that I think > >>>not all of us are prepared to answer. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>I agree and if you remember I started a discussion on the list with a > >>similar comment with regard to Linux Confs and where we need to focus, > >>back in February. > >> > >> > This as very interesting. It is consistent with my frustration at our > traditional imbalance spending too much effort within the FLOSS black > box, preaching to the converted. So I support the sentiment expressed > here about conferences. > > But that aside, OOo booth at LWE has always been a critical venue for > candid exchange of info with WIN32 DEVELOPERS (!!!) who are eager to > port their work out of that dead end (into the open stack). Just the > ticket. > > The other part that's not being done is getting in front of the > Windows-Using community. We have very little time and overlap > therewhere it is most needed. > > -Sam > > That is why I stated we need developers at the conference. It is hard for me to talk to people about developing seeing I am not a developer. I try to keep an open breath of info and I can point them in the right direction, but specifics I can't give. That said, at this time we cannot afford to take developers off of work. It is too busy to lose their time. Maybe I just need to learn how to develop. ;) -- Adam Moore Community Volunteer OOo blog: AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Graham Lauder wrote: swhiser wrote: This as very interesting. It is consistent with my frustration at our traditional imbalance spending too much effort within the FLOSS black box, preaching to the converted. So I support the sentiment expressed here about conferences. But that aside, OOo booth at LWE has always been a critical venue for candid exchange of info with WIN32 DEVELOPERS (!!!) who are eager to port their work out of that dead end (into the open stack). Just the ticket. The other part that's not being done is getting in front of the Windows-Using community. We have very little time and overlap therewhere it is most needed. -Sam Amen. We have attended some: Ian Lynch and I attended he Moodle Conference here in NZ. We were a little short on resources but we did get the word out to a lot of educators. Ian and Adam I think attended the NEA conf in the US earlier this year. So we are doing a few things but I agree we do need to get developers to the Linux Confs. Yes, indeed! This is the effort of a few leaders. I always wanted to prevail on people of the importance of Marketing absorbing this meme institutionally and spreading out the feeling, the need to interact outside the comfortable FLOSS field. (Microsoft is doing it at Linux conferences...is this to say it makes sense? I dunno ;-) -Sam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
swhiser wrote: This as very interesting. It is consistent with my frustration at our traditional imbalance spending too much effort within the FLOSS black box, preaching to the converted. So I support the sentiment expressed here about conferences. But that aside, OOo booth at LWE has always been a critical venue for candid exchange of info with WIN32 DEVELOPERS (!!!) who are eager to port their work out of that dead end (into the open stack). Just the ticket. The other part that's not being done is getting in front of the Windows-Using community. We have very little time and overlap therewhere it is most needed. -Sam Amen. We have attended some: Ian Lynch and I attended he Moodle Conference here in NZ. We were a little short on resources but we did get the word out to a lot of educators. Ian and Adam I think attended the NEA conf in the US earlier this year. So we are doing a few things but I agree we do need to get developers to the Linux Confs. -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Office Technologies) www.theingots.org Blog: yorick.edublogs.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Adam Moore wrote: On 8/14/05, Graham Lauder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Adam Moore wrote: I specifically did not go because I don't feel it's the best place to spend our time. These people already know OpenOffice. Being at OSCON I kind of discovered that the best people to be there are developers. Since a great deal of our developers are not from the western United States it would be difficult to have a contingency there. What questions would he have asked? I don't think people go to linuxworld to find out what OpenOffice is. They already know. Their questions are more tech support specific and something that I think not all of us are prepared to answer. I agree and if you remember I started a discussion on the list with a similar comment with regard to Linux Confs and where we need to focus, back in February. My comments then still apply. -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Office Technologies) www.theingots.org Blog: yorick.edublogs.org I'll have to take the time to look back. I wasn't on the list till the end of February. ;) It all started here http://marketing.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgId=1774032 Cheers Yo -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Office Technologies) www.theingots.org Blog: yorick.edublogs.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Simon Phipps wrote: On Aug 14, 2005, at 19:14, swhiser wrote: snip [ IBM is certainly not obligated to contribute back to OOo has no legal, moral or technical obligation to do so. This is due to the SISSL/LGPL licences. I believe also that the way they are using OOo components and code may lend itself to making any of their work non-applicable to the OOo code base. I'm speculating here and talking from partial knowledge, so please keep that in mind; and I invite Gary or others to suggest where I may have it wrong. -sh] I actually believe IBM's non-contribution to be a consequence only of SISSL, which I gather to have been the license they chose from the dual-license for OpenOffice.org. If they'd chosen to create their derivative work under LGPL, I believe they would have been compelled to provide source just as they would have been if GPL had been in use. Thank you, Simon. S. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Mark Harrison wrote: - Original Message - From: "swhiser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday" Food for thought: if the OOo code base were GPL'd, then IBM's work would be available to everybody Isn't it the case that if the OOo code base HAD BEEN EXCLUSIVE GPLd, then If OOo were released under GPL _now_, it wouldn't mean that IBM had to release, because they already have the product under a different (presumably non-revokable) licence. They would only have to release if they took stuff from a new, GPL-only, codebase. ... Actually, re-reading, I think that's what you meant :-) but the way it was written I parsed as "if we released under OOo NOW, then IBM would have to release", which AIUI, is not the case. M. Mark- You hit on an important question: the "retro-activity or grandfather" question. I believe future work of IBM's off the future GPL-only code would need to be shared. There would be a specific set of code -- a specific version and forward -- which would be GPL. If an IBM benefits from a private extension they would continue to do so off the old base under the old licenses, but would be giving up a lot. Fair play all round. -Sam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Adam Moore wrote: On 8/14/05, Graham Lauder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Adam Moore wrote: I specifically did not go because I don't feel it's the best place to spend our time. These people already know OpenOffice. Being at OSCON I kind of discovered that the best people to be there are developers. Since a great deal of our developers are not from the western United States it would be difficult to have a contingency there. What questions would he have asked? I don't think people go to linuxworld to find out what OpenOffice is. They already know. Their questions are more tech support specific and something that I think not all of us are prepared to answer. I agree and if you remember I started a discussion on the list with a similar comment with regard to Linux Confs and where we need to focus, back in February. This as very interesting. It is consistent with my frustration at our traditional imbalance spending too much effort within the FLOSS black box, preaching to the converted. So I support the sentiment expressed here about conferences. But that aside, OOo booth at LWE has always been a critical venue for candid exchange of info with WIN32 DEVELOPERS (!!!) who are eager to port their work out of that dead end (into the open stack). Just the ticket. The other part that's not being done is getting in front of the Windows-Using community. We have very little time and overlap therewhere it is most needed. -Sam My comments then still apply. -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Office Technologies) www.theingots.org Blog: yorick.edublogs.org I'll have to take the time to look back. I wasn't on the list till the end of February. ;) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On 8/14/05, Simon Phipps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > While I agree with Adam that it would have been of little practical > value (we could have sold t-shirts...), the symbolic value would have > been important. How can I help next time? FWIW, while they are > sympathetic, Sun marketing should not be assumed to automatically be > offering space at shows (the space being discussed here was not in > Sun's gift anyway - it was in a separate area of the exhibition > altogether) and I do agree with Graham that we/OO.o should approach > these events independently of Sun. > > For your viewing pleasure see > http://www.flickr.com/photos/webmink/33932489/ for a photo of Ryan and > Gary staffing the exhibit that /was/ at LinuxWorld for OpenOffice.org > > S. > So there was someone there just not a booth? Well at least we had that. I maybe I somehow missed the mailings, but I didn't see any conversation about going there. I would like to hear from the people that were there what kind of benefit they found from it. Also what kind of questions people asked. This will help to better plan for future events like this. -- Adam Moore Community Volunteer OOo blog: AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On 8/14/05, Graham Lauder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Adam Moore wrote: > > >I specifically did not go because I don't feel it's the best place to > >spend our time. These people already know OpenOffice. Being at OSCON > >I kind of discovered that the best people to be there are developers. > >Since a great deal of our developers are not from the western United > >States it would be difficult to have a contingency there. > > > >What questions would he have asked? I don't think people go to > >linuxworld to find out what OpenOffice is. They already know. Their > >questions are more tech support specific and something that I think > >not all of us are prepared to answer. > > > > > I agree and if you remember I started a discussion on the list with a > similar comment with regard to Linux Confs and where we need to focus, > back in February. > > My comments then still apply. > -- > Graham Lauder, > OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ > http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html > > INGOTs Assessor Trainer > (International Grades in Office Technologies) > www.theingots.org > > Blog: yorick.edublogs.org I'll have to take the time to look back. I wasn't on the list till the end of February. ;) -- Adam Moore Community Volunteer OOo blog: AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Adam Moore wrote: I specifically did not go because I don't feel it's the best place to spend our time. These people already know OpenOffice. Being at OSCON I kind of discovered that the best people to be there are developers. Since a great deal of our developers are not from the western United States it would be difficult to have a contingency there. What questions would he have asked? I don't think people go to linuxworld to find out what OpenOffice is. They already know. Their questions are more tech support specific and something that I think not all of us are prepared to answer. I agree and if you remember I started a discussion on the list with a similar comment with regard to Linux Confs and where we need to focus, back in February. My comments then still apply. On 8/14/05, Deepankar Datta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi This is a round up of the linuxworld 2005 expo written by an attendee, with a sort of negative slant on OOo not attending, seen in these choice quotes: "But the biggest surprise wasn't who was there, but who wasn't--the OpenOffice.org folks." "The bottom line is that not having a booth hurts OpenOffice.org in particular, and the whole Open Source movement in general." The author also goes into Sun's relationship and licencing of OOo, and IBM's own deriviative. An interesting read, and the marketing lessons might be something to think about for the future. Deepankar ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Office Technologies) www.theingots.org Blog: yorick.edublogs.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Sun, 2005-08-14 at 08:25 -0700, Adam Moore wrote: > I specifically did not go because I don't feel it's the best place to > spend our time. These people already know OpenOffice. Being at OSCON > I kind of discovered that the best people to be there are developers. > Since a great deal of our developers are not from the western United > States it would be difficult to have a contingency there. > > What questions would he have asked? I don't think people go to > linuxworld to find out what OpenOffice is. They already know. Their > questions are more tech support specific and something that I think > not all of us are prepared to answer. Which was why the NEA conference was interesting. Most people had never heard of OOo. We should really be seeking out environments where there are open-minded potential new users, not just preaching to the converted. That is a fundamental part of the INGOT strategy. We have now certificated over 2500 people and most of them using MS Office with the lowest level certificate. As they progress they will at least have heard of OOo and for Gold will have taken part in the community. -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMSL - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
- Original Message - From: "swhiser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday" > Food for thought: > if the OOo code base were GPL'd, then IBM's work would be > available to everybody Isn't it the case that if the OOo code base HAD BEEN EXCLUSIVE GPLd, then If OOo were released under GPL _now_, it wouldn't mean that IBM had to release, because they already have the product under a different (presumably non-revokable) licence. They would only have to release if they took stuff from a new, GPL-only, codebase. ... Actually, re-reading, I think that's what you meant :-) but the way it was written I parsed as "if we released under OOo NOW, then IBM would have to release", which AIUI, is not the case. M. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
On Aug 14, 2005, at 19:14, swhiser wrote: The following I exerpt from the Clay Clairborn piece: The difference between the GPL and the LGPL is that the LGPL lets vendors link proprietary code to Open Source libraries without making their code GPL. Apparently this is what IBM has done with its WorkPlace office suite. Granted, WorkPlace does some truly innovative stuff for network collaboration, but anyone familiar with Open Office will recognize OpenOffice 1.1--but without credit to Sun or OpenOffice.org. One shortcoming of the IBM approach is that while IBM claims its system is compliant with the OpenDocuments standard, it really isn't, at least according to Gary Edwards. [ IBM is certainly not obligated to contribute back to OOo has no legal, moral or technical obligation to do so. This is due to the SISSL/LGPL licences. I believe also that the way they are using OOo components and code may lend itself to making any of their work non-applicable to the OOo code base. I'm speculating here and talking from partial knowledge, so please keep that in mind; and I invite Gary or others to suggest where I may have it wrong. -sh] I actually believe IBM's non-contribution to be a consequence only of SISSL, which I gather to have been the license they chose from the dual-license for OpenOffice.org. If they'd chosen to create their derivative work under LGPL, I believe they would have been compelled to provide source just as they would have been if GPL had been in use. S. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Please see my comments below... Graham Lauder wrote: Deepankar Datta wrote: Hi This is a round up of the linuxworld 2005 expo written by an attendee, with a sort of negative slant on OOo not attending, seen in these choice quotes: "But the biggest surprise wasn't who was there, but who wasn't--the OpenOffice.org folks." "The bottom line is that not having a booth hurts OpenOffice.org in particular, and the whole Open Source movement in general." The author also goes into Sun's relationship and licencing of OOo, and IBM's own deriviative. An interesting read, and the marketing lessons might be something to think about for the future. Deepankar Unfortunately, he is right It was raised on the list back in May http://marketing.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=20446 Something flew under the radar here. Are we seeing the beginning of the distancing of SUN from OOo. Or is it simply that we have become so used to Erwin coming onto the list and asking for volunteers, that when he didn't this time we just missed it? Have we become too reliant on SUN people hand feeding us this sort of stuff? Do we need a conference team as part of the marketing project whose responsibility it is to keep the radar up for this sort of thing? The following I exerpt from the Clay Clairborn piece: The difference between the GPL and the LGPL is that the LGPL lets vendors link proprietary code to Open Source libraries without making their code GPL. Apparently this is what IBM has done with its WorkPlace office suite. Granted, WorkPlace does some truly innovative stuff for network collaboration, but anyone familiar with Open Office will recognize OpenOffice 1.1--but without credit to Sun or OpenOffice.org. One shortcoming of the IBM approach is that while IBM claims its system is compliant with the OpenDocuments standard, it really isn't, at least according to Gary Edwards. [Gary understands Workplace and OpenDocument best, so we can defer to him. I haven't seen Workplace yet -- have only been reading -- but I believe IBM is shooting straight on this. If there is "non-compliance" it is due to the technical reqs of Workplace. I think there are XForms type functions & interfaces provided in the WebSphere/Notes where they just dont need to implement certain pieces from OOo. IBM is certainly not obligated to contribute back to OOo has no legal, moral or technical obligation to do so. This is due to the SISSL/LGPL licences. I believe also that the way they are using OOo components and code may lend itself to making any of their work non-applicable to the OOo code base. I'm speculating here and talking from partial knowledge, so please keep that in mind; and I invite Gary or others to suggest where I may have it wrong. -sh] Specifically it doesn't contain xforms, as OpenOffice 2.0 does and which the European Union demands. This could be a problem for IBM and vendors following its lead. While many people would like to think that Sun bought Star Office simply to irritate Microsoft, the real reason has more to do with its core business. Sun bought it for Solaris customers. It seems that now that IBM has used that code to create a competing product without making significant contributions to the Open Office project, Sun's interest in Open Office has waned. [Clay is speculating here. IBM's Workplace is very important because it is desktop-agnostic and involves placing many employee workflow processes through the **browser**-- something open standards like OpenDocument and Linux need to get across the Chasm (thank you Christian Einfeld & Geoffrey Moore). Food for thought: if the OOo code base were GPL'd, then IBM's work would be available to everybody -- IF it is useful to anybody. -sh] I tried to get IBM's side of the story, starting with the WorkPlace demo person on the Expo floor. I was quickly hustled up to the third-floor IBM office to a communications manager who gave me the number of the IBM Media Relations manager in Armonk. When he wasn't available, I was turned over to his boss who wouldn't answer of my questions, but suggested two other IBMers to try. Alas, one of them was on vacation and the other in an all-day meeting. My conclusion is that IBM's position towards OpenOffice.org is no credit, no code, no funding, and no comment. Maybe that's why the LGPL says "we suggest you first think carefully about whether this license or the ordinary General Public License is the better strategy to use in any particular case." [IBM have no obligation to comment, and Workplace is a work-in-progress. But Clay's assessment is okay here. Be mindful that IBM's actions are not controversial, although they may sponsor Sun to make strategic adjustments. -sh] *** --
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Graham Lauder wrote: Deepankar Datta wrote: Hi This is a round up of the linuxworld 2005 expo written by an attendee, with a sort of negative slant on OOo not attending, seen in these choice quotes: "But the biggest surprise wasn't who was there, but who wasn't--the OpenOffice.org folks." "The bottom line is that not having a booth hurts OpenOffice.org in particular, and the whole Open Source movement in general." The author also goes into Sun's relationship and licencing of OOo, and IBM's own deriviative. An interesting read, and the marketing lessons might be something to think about for the future. Deepankar Unfortunately, he is right It was raised on the list back in May http://marketing.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=20446 Something flew under the radar here. Are we seeing the beginning of the distancing of SUN from OOo. If so, this is no evidence. The OOo .ORG booth was always driven by volunteer forces. -Sam Or is it simply that we have become so used to Erwin coming onto the list and asking for volunteers, that when he didn't this time we just missed it? Have we become too reliant on SUN people hand feeding us this sort of stuff? Do we need a conference team as part of the marketing project whose responsibility it is to keep the radar up for this sort of thing? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Graham Lauder wrote: Deepankar Datta wrote: Hi This is a round up of the linuxworld 2005 expo written by an attendee, with a sort of negative slant on OOo not attending, seen in these choice quotes: "But the biggest surprise wasn't who was there, but who wasn't--the OpenOffice.org folks." "The bottom line is that not having a booth hurts OpenOffice.org in particular, and the whole Open Source movement in general." The author also goes into Sun's relationship and licencing of OOo, and IBM's own deriviative. An interesting read, and the marketing lessons might be something to think about for the future. Deepankar Unfortunately, he is right It was raised on the list back in May http://marketing.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=20446 Something flew under the radar here. Are we seeing the beginning of the distancing of SUN from OOo. Or is it simply that we have become so used to Erwin coming onto the list and asking for volunteers, that when he didn't this time we just missed it? Have we become too reliant on SUN people hand feeding us this sort of stuff? Do we need a conference team as part of the marketing project whose responsibility it is to keep the radar up for this sort of thing? Sun never was directly involved in running the OOo booth in the .ORG Pavilion. They were helpful. I was the manager & liason with IDG for the NY/Boston booth (since 2002) and SF to some degree. Personally passed the OOo banner on in Boston this winter. (Sun was morally supportive of the .ORG booth -- once coming up with hardware & support. And they always had a pod in the Sun area -- which split the effort but was reasonable.) These conversations are in the archives -- searchable probably 8-10 weeks before and leading up to the respective Expo dates -- to see what was done. Erwin was always alert about lead-up effort and helpful. -Sam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Simon Phipps wrote: FWIW, while they are sympathetic, Sun marketing should not be assumed to automatically be offering space at shows (the space being discussed here was not in Sun's gift anyway - it was in a separate area of the exhibition altogether) and I do agree with Graham that we/OO.o should approach these events independently of Sun. Indeed. We're not doing anyone a favour by depending on Sun for everything. It only helps perpetuate the image that OOo is just a Sun project with no independent community. It is in everyone's best interest that OOo show a little independence now and again. Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) Leave your mark at OpenOffice.org /\/_/ /\/_/ OOoAuthors: http://oooauthors.org \/_/Knowledge Base: http://mindmeld.cybersite.com.au/ / - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
While I agree with Adam that it would have been of little practical value (we could have sold t-shirts...), the symbolic value would have been important. How can I help next time? FWIW, while they are sympathetic, Sun marketing should not be assumed to automatically be offering space at shows (the space being discussed here was not in Sun's gift anyway - it was in a separate area of the exhibition altogether) and I do agree with Graham that we/OO.o should approach these events independently of Sun. For your viewing pleasure see http://www.flickr.com/photos/webmink/33932489/ for a photo of Ryan and Gary staffing the exhibit that /was/ at LinuxWorld for OpenOffice.org S. On Aug 14, 2005, at 16:25, Adam Moore wrote: I specifically did not go because I don't feel it's the best place to spend our time. These people already know OpenOffice. Being at OSCON I kind of discovered that the best people to be there are developers. Since a great deal of our developers are not from the western United States it would be difficult to have a contingency there. What questions would he have asked? I don't think people go to linuxworld to find out what OpenOffice is. They already know. Their questions are more tech support specific and something that I think not all of us are prepared to answer. On 8/14/05, Deepankar Datta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi This is a round up of the linuxworld 2005 expo written by an attendee, with a sort of negative slant on OOo not attending, seen in these choice quotes: "But the biggest surprise wasn't who was there, but who wasn't--the OpenOffice.org folks." "The bottom line is that not having a booth hurts OpenOffice.org in particular, and the whole Open Source movement in general." The author also goes into Sun's relationship and licencing of OOo, and IBM's own deriviative. An interesting read, and the marketing lessons might be something to think about for the future. Deepankar ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Adam Moore Community Volunteer OOo blog: AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
I specifically did not go because I don't feel it's the best place to spend our time. These people already know OpenOffice. Being at OSCON I kind of discovered that the best people to be there are developers. Since a great deal of our developers are not from the western United States it would be difficult to have a contingency there. What questions would he have asked? I don't think people go to linuxworld to find out what OpenOffice is. They already know. Their questions are more tech support specific and something that I think not all of us are prepared to answer. On 8/14/05, Deepankar Datta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi > > This is a round up of the linuxworld 2005 expo written by an attendee, > with a sort of negative slant on OOo not attending, seen in these > choice quotes: > > "But the biggest surprise wasn't who was there, but who wasn't--the > OpenOffice.org folks." > > "The bottom line is that not having a booth hurts OpenOffice.org in > particular, and the whole Open Source movement in general." > > The author also goes into Sun's relationship and licencing of OOo, and > IBM's own deriviative. > > An interesting read, and the marketing lessons might be something to > think about for the future. > > Deepankar > > > > ___ > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! > Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Adam Moore Community Volunteer OOo blog: AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Deepankar Datta wrote: Hi This is a round up of the linuxworld 2005 expo written by an attendee, with a sort of negative slant on OOo not attending, seen in these choice quotes: "But the biggest surprise wasn't who was there, but who wasn't--the OpenOffice.org folks." "The bottom line is that not having a booth hurts OpenOffice.org in particular, and the whole Open Source movement in general." The author also goes into Sun's relationship and licencing of OOo, and IBM's own deriviative. An interesting read, and the marketing lessons might be something to think about for the future. Deepankar Unfortunately, he is right It was raised on the list back in May http://marketing.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=20446 Something flew under the radar here. Are we seeing the beginning of the distancing of SUN from OOo. Or is it simply that we have become so used to Erwin coming onto the list and asking for volunteers, that when he didn't this time we just missed it? Have we become too reliant on SUN people hand feeding us this sort of stuff? Do we need a conference team as part of the marketing project whose responsibility it is to keep the radar up for this sort of thing? -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Office Technologies) www.theingots.org Blog: yorick.edublogs.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Jacqueline McNally wrote: Graham Lauder wrote: Got a link? The new Linux world site is a bitch to search on dialup I'm a DDJ subscriber, and I received this as a reveiw for Thursday: http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=9848/ddj050811lw/ You can see their other daily reviews here: http://www.ddj.com/eventcalendar/linuxworld/ Regards Jacqueline - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cheers and thanks. -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Office Technologies) www.theingots.org Blog: yorick.edublogs.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Graham Lauder wrote: Got a link? The new Linux world site is a bitch to search on dialup I'm a DDJ subscriber, and I received this as a reveiw for Thursday: http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=9848/ddj050811lw/ You can see their other daily reviews here: http://www.ddj.com/eventcalendar/linuxworld/ Regards Jacqueline - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Deepankar Datta wrote: Hi This is a round up of the linuxworld 2005 expo written by an attendee, with a sort of negative slant on OOo not attending, seen in these choice quotes: "But the biggest surprise wasn't who was there, but who wasn't--the OpenOffice.org folks." "The bottom line is that not having a booth hurts OpenOffice.org in particular, and the whole Open Source movement in general." The author also goes into Sun's relationship and licencing of OOo, and IBM's own deriviative. An interesting read, and the marketing lessons might be something to think about for the future. Deepankar Got a link? The new Linux world site is a bitch to search on dialup -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Office Technologies) www.theingots.org Blog: yorick.edublogs.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Marketing] article: "LinuxWorld 2005 Thursday"
Hi This is a round up of the linuxworld 2005 expo written by an attendee, with a sort of negative slant on OOo not attending, seen in these choice quotes: "But the biggest surprise wasn't who was there, but who wasn't--the OpenOffice.org folks." "The bottom line is that not having a booth hurts OpenOffice.org in particular, and the whole Open Source movement in general." The author also goes into Sun's relationship and licencing of OOo, and IBM's own deriviative. An interesting read, and the marketing lessons might be something to think about for the future. Deepankar ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
