Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

[Damjan Jovanovic]

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton 
wrote:

>
> Damjan,
>
> Thanks for the great summary of the situation, below.  I have a few
> supporting comments there.
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Damjan Jovanovic [mailto:dam...@apache.org]
> > Sent: Sunday, November 1, 2015 09:22
> > To: Apache OO 
> > Subject: Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies
> [ ... ]
> >
> > To summarise, users are beaten through a gauntlet of serious usability
> > problems when Java isn't successfully configured:
> > 1. We don't have a Win64 version of AOO available for download.
> > 2. The Win32 version that Windows users thus download, can't use 64 bit
> > Java, something that is tricky to see.
> > 3. The list of detected JREs in AOO Options is awkward to use, with its
> > radio buttons.
> > 4. The Quickstarter then stops AOO from being restarted.
> > 5. Missing JRE error messages come up even for places where Java is
> > optional.
> > 6. There are multiple (10+) missing JRE error messages when assigning
> > macros to form control events.
> >
> > The solutions seem straightforward:
> > 1. We should have a Win64 AOO download available. Why don't we?
> > 2. The UI should be clearer that Java has the wrong bitness.
> > 3. That's also what the Eclipse IDE does in its list of JREs. I am not
> > sure
> > how that UI could be improved. What do you propose?
> > 4. If we are keeping the Quickstarter, it needs to be more intelligent,
> > and
> > restart itself when AOO is intentionally restarted by the user.
> > 5-6. Missing JRE error messages should only come up (1) when Java is
> > actually needed, and (2) once for each dialog.
> >
> > I've also noticed that the version of Java used to build AOO becomes the
> > minimum version of Java that it will accept in the list of detected
> > JREs,
> > older versions just get this generic non-descriptive error: "The folder
> > you
> > have selected does not contain a Java runtime environment. Please select
> > a
> > different folder."
> >
> > Damjan
> [orcmid]
>
> A while ago I started digging into how to improve the messages that do
> come up, although that doesn't remove users being trap-doored.
>
> I discovered that the way exceptions are chained together and used to
> build the resulting message dialog to users is difficult to untangle.  My
> concern was that the user would receive multiple messages that all
> specified the same remedy (pointing to a single web page where details and
> the cure can be found).  It may be appropriate to do that anyhow until a
> better solution is found.  A quick fix for that part should not be too
> troublesome, other than needing new localizations for the few dialogs
> involved.
>
> By the way, the way Base chains exception messages and presents them looks
> like the technique that should be used in all of the code, since it
> provides invaluable diagnostic information.
>
>
+1 to exception chaining, something Java has been doing for 13 years since
version 1.4, but I do hate that UI used by Base to display the error
messages, where you have to click on each "Error list" item on the left
pane (which are all labeled "Error") to see its "Description" on the right
pane, because it hides the cause of the problem and also makes it difficult
to copy everything out of there and paste it into a bug report.


> I think releasing an x64 version for Windows would be great, although an
> x86 version would still be required so long as we support XP (or continue
> to provide simple/security updates to the last XP-compatible
> distribution).  This should be a separate topic, because it also involves
> code signing, building "dual" installers, and going to a modern
> installation process.  The ultimate goal should be to have the authentic
> Windows and Macintosh binaries be acceptable in the respective store
> systems.  There are multiple moving parts to orchestrate in getting there.
> It's my impression that getting code signing in place is an essential first
> step.
>
>  - Dennis
>
>
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>

Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

[Damjan Jovanovic]

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 2:34 AM, Pedro Giffuni  wrote:

> Just to note some things related to a Win64 port:
>
> - In order to support win64 builds we would have to add a win64 bridge
> which we currently don’t have. The process is similar to porting to a new
> architecture: mail archives should have a message from Tor Lillquist who
> did the LibreOffice port and had a blog post about it.
> - It would also be convenient to upgrade the MSVC version we are using.
> - As a side effect, most or even all extensions would have to be
> recompiled.
>
> Since about 80% of our users depend on Microsoft Windows, and 32 bit
> hardware is not exactly easy to find anymore, we would think that a win64
> port is essential but the truth is up to MS-Office 2013, Microsoft was
> recommending people should use 32 bit versions of their office suite for
> compatibility issues.
> We should work on it, but for now I think the priority should updating
> MSVC as a step for that goal. Not sure up to which point we may be able to
> update it without getting into trouble for some dependencies.
>
> For now, perhaps we should point people to the openjdk unofficial builds:
> https://github.com/alexkasko/openjdk-unofficial-builds <
> https://github.com/alexkasko/openjdk-unofficial-builds>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Pedro.
>
>
>
>

Oh, I didn't realize AOO still needs porting to Win64. The irony is, we'd
be porting to Win64 to interoperate with Java better, yet the entire port
would be wasted effort if or when we port AOO to Java.

I love those unofficial OpenJDK builds ;-). Do they auto-update?

Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

[Pedro Giffuni]

Just to note some things related to a Win64 port:

- In order to support win64 builds we would have to add a win64 bridge which we 
currently don’t have. The process is similar to porting to a new architecture: 
mail archives should have a message from Tor Lillquist who did the LibreOffice 
port and had a blog post about it.
- It would also be convenient to upgrade the MSVC version we are using. 
- As a side effect, most or even all extensions would have to be recompiled.

Since about 80% of our users depend on Microsoft Windows, and 32 bit hardware 
is not exactly easy to find anymore, we would think that a win64 port is 
essential but the truth is up to MS-Office 2013, Microsoft was recommending 
people should use 32 bit versions of their office suite for compatibility 
issues.
We should work on it, but for now I think the priority should updating MSVC as 
a step for that goal. Not sure up to which point we may be able to update it 
without getting into trouble for some dependencies.

For now, perhaps we should point people to the openjdk unofficial builds:
https://github.com/alexkasko/openjdk-unofficial-builds 


Cheers,

Pedro.

Re: Dansk

[Jan Høydahl]

Unclear what you mean by your question. Did you download the danish version? 
http://www.openoffice.org/da/download/index.html

--
Jan Høydahl, search solution architect
Cominvent AS - www.cominvent.com

> 29. okt. 2015 kl. 17.05 skrev joergenhon...@gmail.com:
> 
> Dansk sprog i programmet hvordan gør jeg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sendt fra Windows Mail


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Re: update feed from 4.1.1 to 4.1.2 ready to go...

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/31/2015 03:19 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 10/31/2015 10:55 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>> Kay Schenk wrote:
>>> see issue: https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126612
>>> There's an update feed from 4.1.1 to 4.1.2 ready to go whenever
>>> we're ready for this.
>>
>> Thanks! I think we are ready, +1 from me for putting it online when
>> you wish, like tomorrow or Monday. Just go ahead, the reason for
>> waiting still a bit is that it would be good to have some
>> translation updates on the download pages (see l10n list and/or issue).
> 
> Ok...I'll take a look at the progress on these first before doing
> anything.

Ok, now in place for 4.1.1 to 4.1.2. Others coming soonish...

> 
>>
>>> I will work on the others and attach to the issue over teh next few
>>> days.
>>
>> Great, maybe those could wait a couple days too since they will be
>> cloned by the 4.1.1 ones with some search/replace, but the 4.1.1
>> ones may change to reflect the new localized sites we have now (so,
>> for example, Latvian may wish to use the Latvian download pages
>> instead of the generic ones).
> 
> We could probably wait until mid-week on these.
> 
>>
>> Regards,
>>   Andrea.
>>
> 
> 

-- 

MzK

“The journey of a thousand miles begins
 with a single step.”
  --Lao Tzu



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Re: Patch for failing UT on Mac OSX

[Andrea Pescetti]

On 31/10/2015 PATHANGI JANARDHANAN JATINSHRAVAN wrote:

Attached is a patch that fixes a compilation error I faced while
building Open Office on Mac OS X 10.10.


Hi, thanks for starting your journey into the OpenOffice code!

Patches are not distributed when you post to the mailing list: our 
mailing list software removes them, so we can't see your patch.


The only way for contributing a patch is to:
- Register for a Bugzilla account 
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/createaccount.cgi
- Create a new issue and upload the patch there (don't worry if you are 
lost in the many settings, they can be fixed later if needed; just 
provide a description and attach the patch).


Regards,
  Andrea.

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RE: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Damjan,

Thanks for the great summary of the situation, below.  I have a few supporting 
comments there.
> -Original Message-
> From: Damjan Jovanovic [mailto:dam...@apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, November 1, 2015 09:22
> To: Apache OO 
> Subject: Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies
[ ... ]
> 
> To summarise, users are beaten through a gauntlet of serious usability
> problems when Java isn't successfully configured:
> 1. We don't have a Win64 version of AOO available for download.
> 2. The Win32 version that Windows users thus download, can't use 64 bit
> Java, something that is tricky to see.
> 3. The list of detected JREs in AOO Options is awkward to use, with its
> radio buttons.
> 4. The Quickstarter then stops AOO from being restarted.
> 5. Missing JRE error messages come up even for places where Java is
> optional.
> 6. There are multiple (10+) missing JRE error messages when assigning
> macros to form control events.
> 
> The solutions seem straightforward:
> 1. We should have a Win64 AOO download available. Why don't we?
> 2. The UI should be clearer that Java has the wrong bitness.
> 3. That's also what the Eclipse IDE does in its list of JREs. I am not
> sure
> how that UI could be improved. What do you propose?
> 4. If we are keeping the Quickstarter, it needs to be more intelligent,
> and
> restart itself when AOO is intentionally restarted by the user.
> 5-6. Missing JRE error messages should only come up (1) when Java is
> actually needed, and (2) once for each dialog.
> 
> I've also noticed that the version of Java used to build AOO becomes the
> minimum version of Java that it will accept in the list of detected
> JREs,
> older versions just get this generic non-descriptive error: "The folder
> you
> have selected does not contain a Java runtime environment. Please select
> a
> different folder."
> 
> Damjan
[orcmid] 

A while ago I started digging into how to improve the messages that do come up, 
although that doesn't remove users being trap-doored.

I discovered that the way exceptions are chained together and used to build the 
resulting message dialog to users is difficult to untangle.  My concern was 
that the user would receive multiple messages that all specified the same 
remedy (pointing to a single web page where details and the cure can be found). 
 It may be appropriate to do that anyhow until a better solution is found.  A 
quick fix for that part should not be too troublesome, other than needing new 
localizations for the few dialogs involved.

By the way, the way Base chains exception messages and presents them looks like 
the technique that should be used in all of the code, since it provides 
invaluable diagnostic information.

I think releasing an x64 version for Windows would be great, although an x86 
version would still be required so long as we support XP (or continue to 
provide simple/security updates to the last XP-compatible distribution).  This 
should be a separate topic, because it also involves code signing, building 
"dual" installers, and going to a modern installation process.  The ultimate 
goal should be to have the authentic Windows and Macintosh binaries be 
acceptable in the respective store systems.  There are multiple moving parts to 
orchestrate in getting there.  It's my impression that getting code signing in 
place is an essential first step.

 - Dennis


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Re: [QUESTION] Usability of Non-Optional Java Dependencies

[Damjan Jovanovic]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 4:14 PM, C&A Säger  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Please load the following screen shot:
> > http://www.mediafire.com/view/sqwigulqh8yfziu/JavaOptionsWin64.png
>
> The screenshot shows the Java options for a Win64 system with a 64-bit
> Java highlighted (C:\Program Files\...) while the selected one is "bad"
> the currently active JRE.
>
> 1. This is what the majority of AOO/Windows users struggle with:
>
> 1.1. They install some JRE which becomes visible in the AOO Java options
> but AOO complains about no functional JRE being installed. This is
> because most Windows systems run on 64 bit, the Oracle installer always
> installs the latest 64 bit Java, the AOO options list these inadequate
> JREs just like the adequate 32-bit JREs.
> LO5 comes as a 64-bit Windows application evading this problem.
>
> 1.2. Knowing this, the only way to distinguish right from wrong JREs is
> the "Location" indicated at the bottom of the list of JREs. It indicates
> the installation path of the JRE that is currently selected on that
> list. If it starts with C:\Program Files (x86)\... then it is a good
> JRE. Without (x86) it is a bad one, thought the standard one for that
> system.
>
> 1.3 Yes, the overall reputation of Java among end users is a problem.
> This is due to the weekly security updates of Java7 together with the
> malware installer.
>
> 2. Platform independent problems:
>
> 2.1. Another problem that comes up every now and then is also related to
> that list of detected JREs in the AOO options. The list is a list box
> with additional radio buttons. When you select another JRE than the
> previously selected by clicking on the name or navigating with
> up/down-keys and then confirm the dialog, you end up with the same JRE
> as before because only the hit on the space bar or a mouse-click on the
> radio button within the list actually selects the radio button for the JRE.
>
> 2.2. After successfully choosing another JRE, you are prompted to
> restart the office suite which fails when the user is unaware of the
> quick-starter (OT: "quick-starter" is the worst anti-feature which I
> disable for all my installations).
>
> 2.3. I used to run OpenOffice.org 1.x, 2.x and 3.x for many years
> without any JRE. I used the Base component with dBase, csv, spreadsheets
> and MySQL via ODBC. I designed input forms, wrote macros in Basic and
> Python, assigned macros to form controls, document events, menues,
> shortcuts and toolbar buttons without ever activating any JRE. In those
> days I was aware that the search function of the F1-help did not work
> (the index did work) and that I could not call macros via
> Tools>Macros>Run... (Tools>Macros>Organize>... let me run macros). And
> now this:
> > https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=86541
> We get a whole cascade of wrong error messages about Java dependency.
> The errors are wrong because in the end the action will be performed
> successfully.
> Exact steps to reproduce bug #86541 with AOO 4.x on any platform:
> 1) Tools>Options>Java, disable Java
> 2) Shut down the office suite. Mind the nasty quick-starter!
> 3) Restart the office and if you do not have any macros, call
> Tools>Macros>Organize>Basic... [Organizer...] [New...] and confirm the
> defaults. You end up with an empty Main routine on Module1 of the
> Standard library.
> 4) menu:Tools>Macros run... [Cancel] the error message about missing
> dependencies and then run your macro anyway.
> When assigning a macro to some form control event (push button, list box
> etc.) you get more than 10 of these error messages, one for each
> evaillable event, before you can assign your macro to a chosen event.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Andreas Säger
>
> --
> Claudia & Andreas Säger
> saege...@t-online.de
>

Thank you Andreas for that excellent and highly detailed explanation.

To summarise, users are beaten through a gauntlet of serious usability
problems when Java isn't successfully configured:
1. We don't have a Win64 version of AOO available for download.
2. The Win32 version that Windows users thus download, can't use 64 bit
Java, something that is tricky to see.
3. The list of detected JREs in AOO Options is awkward to use, with its
radio buttons.
4. The Quickstarter then stops AOO from being restarted.
5. Missing JRE error messages come up even for places where Java is
optional.
6. There are multiple (10+) missing JRE error messages when assigning
macros to form control events.

The solutions seem straightforward:
1. We should have a Win64 AOO download available. Why don't we?
2. The UI should be clearer that Java has the wrong bitness.
3. That's also what the Eclipse IDE does in its list of JREs. I am not sure
how that UI could be improved. What do you propose?
4. If we are keeping the Quickstarter, it needs to be more intelligent, and
restart itself when AOO is intentionally restarted by the user.
5-6. Missing JRE error messages should only come up (1) when Java is
actually needed, and (2) once for each dial

Re: Reporting broken download link

[Heiko Wonneberger]

Am 31.10.2015 um 18:28 schrieb Marcus:
that is the case. Very likely you had an old version of a website file 
in your browser cache with. When reloading the website all files get 
updated.


So ist es. Danke!

Heiko

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