Re: Intent to Implement: adding vector effects non-scaling-size, non-rotation and fixed-position to SVG

[Jet Villegas]

We had a good conversation with Ramin last week in Tokyo. The topic of
interoperability was discussed at length, and we also talked about where
Mozilla's 2017 priorities align with KDDI's.

To summarize, Mozilla is prioritizing the Web-compatibility and Performance
of the interoperable subset of the SVG feature set. That is, we will work
on features that:

A. other browsers support, and
B. authors actually use, or
C. the Firefox browser user interface requires.

Thanks,

--Jet


On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:11 AM,  wrote:

> Has there been any feedback from Google, Apple or Microsoft?
>
> We've landed stuff preffed off before and had to remove it in the end as
> it's just so much dead weight without any chance of being preffed on.
> Unless there's an intent to implement this soon from other vendors we
> really shouldn't put in any more effort here and we certainly shouldn't
> land any patches.
>
> Robert
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Re: Intent to Implement: adding vector effects non-scaling-size, non-rotation and fixed-position to SVG

[longsonr]

Has there been any feedback from Google, Apple or Microsoft?

We've landed stuff preffed off before and had to remove it in the end as it's 
just so much dead weight without any chance of being preffed on. Unless there's 
an intent to implement this soon from other vendors we really shouldn't put in 
any more effort here and we certainly shouldn't land any patches.

Robert
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Re: Intent to Implement: adding vector effects non-scaling-size, non-rotation and fixed-position to SVG

[Daniel Holbert]

On 1/3/17 4:48 PM, ktecrami...@gmail.com wrote:
>> e.g. It seems like introductory notes example could just use a
>> separate SVG element that had fixed positioning instead of needing to build
>> fixed-position into SVG.
> 
> By "introductory notes example" do you mean the example in following link?
> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/coords.html#VectorEffects 

I think that's what Jeff meant, yes.

(Basically, can authors already solve the problems that
"vector-effect:fixed-position" is intended to solve, by simply creating
two different  elements (in an HTML context), and styling one with
"position: fixed">?  Here's a simple demo with a floating fixed-position
legend, using that sort of solution:
https://jsfiddle.net/vv9gwemr/
)

Also, Jeff asked another important question -- have other browsers
expressed any intent to implement these features?

Also note that this feature is marked as "at-risk" of being dropped from
this version of the SVG2 spec:
"ISSUE 31: Values of vector-effect other than non-scaling-stroke and
none are at risk of being dropped from SVG 2 due to a lack of
implementations."
https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/coords.html#issue31

Looks like that warning was added here:
https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/186

If no other browsers are intending to implement it, then there's a
serious question of whether it's worth taking on this added code & the
increased complexity/attack-surface/bug-surface/maintenance-burden that
new features inevitably bring along, if web developers aren't going to
be able to use the feature on the web due to lack of support in other
browsers.

~Daniel
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Re: Intent to Implement: adding vector effects non-scaling-size, non-rotation and fixed-position to SVG

[ktecramin99]

Hi Jeff
> I'm concerned about the complexity this will add to the SVG implementation
> as we're looking to transition to WebRender.
if WebRender supports currently implemented "non-scaling-stroke", 
new modifications must be nothing more than recalculating CTM for those new 
effects. 

> Can the desired effects be achieved by interleaving HTML and SVG content
> today? 
my understanding is CTM translations do work well with interleaving HTML and 
SVG.

> e.g. It seems like introductory notes example could just use a
> separate SVG element that had fixed positioning instead of needing to build
> fixed-position into SVG.

By "introductory notes example" do you mean the example in following link?
https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/coords.html#VectorEffects 
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Re: Intent to Implement: adding vector effects non-scaling-size, non-rotation and fixed-position to SVG

[Jeff Muizelaar]

I'm concerned about the complexity this will add to the SVG implementation
as we're looking to transition to WebRender.

Can the desired effects be achieved by interleaving HTML and SVG content
today? e.g. It seems like introductory notes example could just use a
separate SVG element that had fixed positioning instead of needing to build
fixed-position into SVG.

Do other browsers intend to implement these features?

-Jeff

On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 9:47 PM, Ramin  wrote:

> Intent to Implement: adding vector effects  non-scaling-size, non-rotation
> and fixed-position to SVG
>
> Contact emails
> 
> te-fuk...@kddi-tech.com, g-ra...@kddi-tech.com, sa-...@kddi-tech.com
>
> Summary
> 
> To offer vector effects regarding special coordinate transformations and
> graphic drawings as described in following Spec link,
> SVG Tiny 1.2 introduced the vector-effect property. Although SVG Tiny 1.2
> introduced only non-scaling stroke behavior, this version introduces a
> number of additional effects.
>
> We intend now to implement non-scaling-size, non-rotation and
> fixed-position, as well as their combination to Gecko/SVG.
>
> Motivation
> 
> It is a point of interest in many SVG content providers to let the outline
> of an object keep its original size or to keep the position of an object
> fix, regardless of type of transforms that are applied to it. For example,
> in a map with a 2px wide line representing roads it is of
> interest to keep the roads 2px wide even when the user zooms into the map,
> or introductory notes on the graphic chart in which panning is possible.
> Therefore, there is a high need for supporting these features in browsers.
>
>
> Spec(Link to standard)
> 
> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/coords.html#VectorEffects
>
> Platform coverage
> 
> Starting from Windows and Linux.
>
> Bug
> 
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1318208
>
> Estimated or target release
> 
> 2017/1/30
>
> Requesting approval to ship?
> 
> No.  Implementation is expected to take some time.
>
> Tests
> 
> Coming soon.
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Intent to Implement: adding vector effects non-scaling-size, non-rotation and fixed-position to SVG

[Ramin]

Intent to Implement: adding vector effects  non-scaling-size,  
non-rotation and fixed-position to SVG


Contact emails

te-fuk...@kddi-tech.com, g-ra...@kddi-tech.com, sa-...@kddi-tech.com

Summary

To offer vector effects regarding special coordinate transformations and  
graphic drawings as described in following Spec link,
SVG Tiny 1.2 introduced the vector-effect property. Although SVG Tiny  
1.2 introduced only non-scaling stroke behavior, this version introduces  
a number of additional effects.


We intend now to implement non-scaling-size, non-rotation and  
fixed-position, as well as their combination to Gecko/SVG.


Motivation

It is a point of interest in many SVG content providers to let the  
outline of an object keep its original size or to keep the position of  
an object fix, regardless of type of transforms that are applied to it.  
For example, in a map with a 2px wide line representing roads it is of
interest to keep the roads 2px wide even when the user zooms into the  
map, or introductory notes on the graphic chart in which panning is  
possible. Therefore, there is a high need for supporting these features  
in browsers.



Spec(Link to standard)

https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/coords.html#VectorEffects

Platform coverage

Starting from Windows and Linux.

Bug

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1318208

Estimated or target release

2017/1/30

Requesting approval to ship?

No.  Implementation is expected to take some time.

Tests

Coming soon.
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Re: Intent to Implement: adding vector effects non-scaling-size, non-rotation and fixed-position to SVG

[ktecramin99]

> Does this change any invariants that we depend on in terms of how
> SVG images with a viewBox respond to size changes by scaling?

To be able to answer your question, please kindly write an example of what kind 
of invariant or what kind of use-case concerns you. Also please refer to 
following link for checking behavior of this implementation:
http://svg2.mbsrv.net/devinfo/devstd/non-scaling-objects-2/VectorEffect_polyfill.html

thank you in advance.
Ramin
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Re: Intent to Implement: adding vector effects non-scaling-size, non-rotation and fixed-position to SVG

[ktecramin99]

> Is this a new SVG2 feature?
yes, to be more precise, it is an extension of existing "non-scaling-stroke", 
which is already released in Gecko.

> How stable is the spec?  Are there any tests to test interop?
"non-scaling-size" and "non-rotation" spec are fix and "fix-position" spec is 
under review (pre-fix?).  Our implementation will be adapted to latest updates. 
To verify interoperability, test contents are under development.

> Do we have any indications that any other browser plans to implement 
> this?   This is really most relevant for an intent to ship, but my 
> impression of the SVG2 new-feature work is that there is fairly limited 
> buy-in from implementors for most of it, and thus a high risk of no one 
> except us ever implementing this, at which point it wouldn't be obvious 
> that we want to ship this.  So there's a fair risk of implementation of 
> such new-feature work from SVG2 being wasted time.

It will be a good starting point to check out any possible issues. this is 
needed specially in technical drawing field. Some examples include W3C memebers 
like KDDI (for using in vector maps), Boeing (for use in technical designs), 
and it's been known request since 10 years:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg//2003Nov/0026.html

Regards
Ramin
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Re: Intent to Implement: adding vector effects non-scaling-size, non-rotation and fixed-position to SVG

[L. David Baron]

On Tuesday 2016-12-27 00:19 -0800, Boris Zbarsky wrote:
> On 12/26/16 11:54 PM, ktecrami...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Spec(Link to standard)
> > 
> > https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/coords.html#VectorEffects
> 
> Is this a new SVG2 feature?
> 
> How stable is the spec?  Are there any tests to test interop?
> 
> Do we have any indications that any other browser plans to implement this?
> This is really most relevant for an intent to ship, but my impression of the
> SVG2 new-feature work is that there is fairly limited buy-in from
> implementors for most of it, and thus a high risk of no one except us ever
> implementing this, at which point it wouldn't be obvious that we want to
> ship this.  So there's a fair risk of implementation of such new-feature
> work from SVG2 being wasted time.

Does this change any invariants that we depend on in terms of how
SVG images with a viewBox respond to size changes by scaling?

Is it well defined how this interacts with all the ways in which SVG
is used, e.g., as content within an HTML document, as a standalone
file referenced via iframe or object, as a standalone file
referenced via image, when used as a background-image or
border-image, etc.?

-David

-- 
턞   L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/   턂
턢   Mozilla  https://www.mozilla.org/   턂
 Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
 What I was walling in or walling out,
 And to whom I was like to give offense.
   - Robert Frost, Mending Wall (1914)


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Re: Intent to Implement: adding vector effects non-scaling-size, non-rotation and fixed-position to SVG

[Boris Zbarsky]

On 12/26/16 11:54 PM, ktecrami...@gmail.com wrote:

Spec(Link to standard)

https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/coords.html#VectorEffects


Is this a new SVG2 feature?

How stable is the spec?  Are there any tests to test interop?

Do we have any indications that any other browser plans to implement 
this?   This is really most relevant for an intent to ship, but my 
impression of the SVG2 new-feature work is that there is fairly limited 
buy-in from implementors for most of it, and thus a high risk of no one 
except us ever implementing this, at which point it wouldn't be obvious 
that we want to ship this.  So there's a fair risk of implementation of 
such new-feature work from SVG2 being wasted time.


-Boris
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Intent to Implement: adding vector effects non-scaling-size, non-rotation and fixed-position to SVG

[ktecramin99]

Intent to Implement: 

adding vector effects  non-scaling-size, non-rotation and fixed-position to SVG

Summary

To offer vector effects regarding special coordinate transformations and 
graphic drawings as described in following Spec link,
SVG Tiny 1.2 introduced the vector-effect property. Although SVG Tiny 1.2 
introduced only non-scaling stroke behavior, this version introduces a number 
of additional effects.

We intend now to implement non-scaling-size, non-rotation and fixed-position, 
as well as their combination to Gecko/SVG.

Motivation

It is a point of interest in many SVG content providers to let the outline of 
an object keep its original size or to keep the position of an object fix, 
regardless of type of transforms that are applied to it. For example, in a map 
with a 2px wide line representing roads it is of
interest to keep the roads 2px wide even when the user zooms into the map, or 
introductory notes on the graphic chart in which panning is possible. 
Therefore, there is a high need for supporting these features in browsers.


Spec(Link to standard)

https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/coords.html#VectorEffects

Platform coverage

Starting from Windows and Linux.

Bug

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1318208

Estimated or target release

2017/1/30

Requesting approval to ship?

No.  Implementation is expected to take some time.

Tests

Coming soon.
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