Re: On indirect feedback
I don't see a contradiction here. If the person giving feedback is skilled at doing it, the person receiving it doesn't need to be as skilled in receiving it. if the person receiving feedback is skilled at receiving, the person giving it doesn't need to be as skilled at giving it. If both are good - awesome. If neither one of them is, getting somebody to help that you think is good at it works well. If you complain to a random 3rd party, hopefully they're skilled enough to ask if you mind them helping you deliver this message. -- - Milan On 2013-08-05, at 10:23 , Gervase Markham wrote: > On 05/08/13 14:53, Bas Schouten wrote: >> Although I agree fully that by far the best way of offering feedback >> is by talking to that person directly. I do think we have to face the >> fact that at this point in time a significant amount of people find >> it very hard to speak to people directly about things. Even when >> their intention is to provide constructive criticism, they will often >> rather avoid the confrontation for fear of creating grudges, damaging >> their reputation, their career, etc. It also simply takes some amount >> of training and social skills to deliver criticism in such a way that >> the target of that feedback will perceive it as the intent to improve >> them, rather than an attempt to simply criticize them or even bring >> them down. > > If we accept all that as true for the sake of argument, then it doesn't > legitimise complaining to random 3rd parties. If you are unwilling to > talk to someone directly, find someone who will, and approach them with > a specific request to raise the issue with the person concerned. This is > not as good as approaching them directly, and it should be an indicator > that either you need to work on your feedback-giving or they need to > work on their feedback-receiving, but it's a lot better than the other > alternatives. > > Gerv > ___ > dev-platform mailing list > dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: On indirect feedback
On 05/08/13 14:53, Bas Schouten wrote: > Although I agree fully that by far the best way of offering feedback > is by talking to that person directly. I do think we have to face the > fact that at this point in time a significant amount of people find > it very hard to speak to people directly about things. Even when > their intention is to provide constructive criticism, they will often > rather avoid the confrontation for fear of creating grudges, damaging > their reputation, their career, etc. It also simply takes some amount > of training and social skills to deliver criticism in such a way that > the target of that feedback will perceive it as the intent to improve > them, rather than an attempt to simply criticize them or even bring > them down. If we accept all that as true for the sake of argument, then it doesn't legitimise complaining to random 3rd parties. If you are unwilling to talk to someone directly, find someone who will, and approach them with a specific request to raise the issue with the person concerned. This is not as good as approaching them directly, and it should be an indicator that either you need to work on your feedback-giving or they need to work on their feedback-receiving, but it's a lot better than the other alternatives. Gerv ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: On indirect feedback
Although I agree fully that by far the best way of offering feedback is by talking to that person directly. I do think we have to face the fact that at this point in time a significant amount of people find it very hard to speak to people directly about things. Even when their intention is to provide constructive criticism, they will often rather avoid the confrontation for fear of creating grudges, damaging their reputation, their career, etc. It also simply takes some amount of training and social skills to deliver criticism in such a way that the target of that feedback will perceive it as the intent to improve them, rather than an attempt to simply criticize them or even bring them down. On the other hand I think it's important for everyone I think to work on both their ability and willingness to -receive- feedback, as well as to provide it. An environment where people feel comfortable talking to other people with their feedback will only really come about when people on the receiving end of feedback keep an open-mind to that feedback and treat it as an honest attempt from the other person to help them improve themselves. In that sense it's a shame we don't have a 360-degree feedback process in affect with Mozilla at the moment, I firmly believe that can positively contribute to creating an atmosphere where providing your co-workers with feedback on the things they are doing and how they're doing them is simply part of day-to-day operations. In the end as long as there's people uncomfortable/afraid/unable to share their feedback directly, it would still be a good thing if they provide that feedback to their 'leaders' (managers/module owners/etc.) as they will hopefully be able to take that feedback and use it in a meaningful way to improve others, this is part of their job after all. I think this form of indirect feedback is much preferred over building up long term irritations or simply spewing negative comments over the watercooler :-). Just my two cents, Bas - Original Message - From: "Robert O'Callahan" To: "Brian Smith" Cc: "Mozilla Product Builds" , "dev-platform" , "Gregory Szorc" Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 1:28:39 PM Subject: Re: On indirect feedback On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Brian Smith wrote: > I think some people may interpret what you say in that last paragraph the > opposite of how you intend. I am pretty sure you mean something like "If > somebody starts to complain to you about somebody else, then stop them and > ask them to first talk to the person they were trying to complain about." > Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Thanks. Rob -- Jtehsauts tshaei dS,o n" Wohfy Mdaon yhoaus eanuttehrotraiitny eovni le atrhtohu gthot sf oirng iyvoeu rs ihnesa.r"t sS?o Whhei csha iids teoa stiheer :p atroa lsyazye,d 'mYaonu,r "sGients uapr,e tfaokreg iyvoeunr, 'm aotr atnod sgaoy ,h o'mGee.t" uTph eann dt hwea lmka'n? gBoutt uIp waanndt wyeonut thoo mken.o w * * ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: On indirect feedback
On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Brian Smith wrote: > I think some people may interpret what you say in that last paragraph the > opposite of how you intend. I am pretty sure you mean something like "If > somebody starts to complain to you about somebody else, then stop them and > ask them to first talk to the person they were trying to complain about." > Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Thanks. Rob -- Jtehsauts tshaei dS,o n" Wohfy Mdaon yhoaus eanuttehrotraiitny eovni le atrhtohu gthot sf oirng iyvoeu rs ihnesa.r"t sS?o Whhei csha iids teoa stiheer :p atroa lsyazye,d 'mYaonu,r "sGients uapr,e tfaokreg iyvoeunr, 'm aotr atnod sgaoy ,h o'mGee.t" uTph eann dt hwea lmka'n? gBoutt uIp waanndt wyeonut thoo mken.o w * * ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: On indirect feedback
On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:32 AM, Robert O'Callahan wrote: > On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Gregory Szorc wrote: > > > Many of the complaints I've heard have been from overhearing hallway > > conversations, noticing non-directed complaints on IRC, having 3rd > parties > > report anecdotes, etc. *Please, please, please voice your complaints > > directly at me and the build peers.* Indirectly complaining isn't a very > > effective way to get attention or to spur action. > > > > Yes! "Indirect feedback" is antisocial and destructive. > > http://robert.ocallahan.org/2013/05/over-time-ive-become-increasingly.htmlFWIW > . > > Even if you're just the recipient of "indirect feedback", you can help, by > refusing to hear it until direct feedback has been given. > Rob, I think some people may interpret what you say in that last paragraph the opposite of how you intend. I am pretty sure you mean something like "If somebody starts to complain to you about somebody else, then stop them and ask them to first talk to the person they were trying to complain about." I recommend that, when you hear that people are giving "indirect feedback" about you or your work to others, that you seek them out in person (or video calling, if there's too much distance). I've also found that people often assume that I'm going to be difficult to talk with because of the direct way I write; seeking people out for face-to-face discussions seems to have had the side-effect of making it easier for people to read my email with the correct tone. For the same reason, I highly recommend showing up at that person's desk over emailing them, if at all possible. Cheers, Brian ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
On indirect feedback
On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Gregory Szorc wrote: > Many of the complaints I've heard have been from overhearing hallway > conversations, noticing non-directed complaints on IRC, having 3rd parties > report anecdotes, etc. *Please, please, please voice your complaints > directly at me and the build peers.* Indirectly complaining isn't a very > effective way to get attention or to spur action. > Yes! "Indirect feedback" is antisocial and destructive. http://robert.ocallahan.org/2013/05/over-time-ive-become-increasingly.htmlFWIW. Even if you're just the recipient of "indirect feedback", you can help, by refusing to hear it until direct feedback has been given. Rob -- Jtehsauts tshaei dS,o n" Wohfy Mdaon yhoaus eanuttehrotraiitny eovni le atrhtohu gthot sf oirng iyvoeu rs ihnesa.r"t sS?o Whhei csha iids teoa stiheer :p atroa lsyazye,d 'mYaonu,r "sGients uapr,e tfaokreg iyvoeunr, 'm aotr atnod sgaoy ,h o'mGee.t" uTph eann dt hwea lmka'n? gBoutt uIp waanndt wyeonut thoo mken.o w * * ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
