Re: java click to run problem on Firefox

[Benjamin Smedberg]

On 10/10/2013 3:46 PM, Thierry Milard wrote:
Benjamin, here is my description of the java Plugin activation issue I 
do have.

*
*
*1) Warning sign not displayd upper left when applet is in the middle*
The  "No entry sign" is displaid on the upper left of the html page, 
not placed where my java programm is placed.

I do  not understand why.

This is surprising. Can you file a bug (cc me) with a minimal testcase?


*
*
*2) "A red no entry sign" is too radical for recent java player I think.*
My users give me a phone call to tell me "No way I will accept to 
install your software with this red warning"... Even the people who 
know me, tell me they got so scared they have really hesitated to 
accept java. Now I do understand at a time when java had urgent 
security issue this scary red-message was necessary. But I really wish 
that Firefox checks the java version installed ... and give a 
less-scary-warning-sign if the user has a recent java version (like 
the latest on java 1.7 update 30).


We fundamentally disagree about the risks of the Java plugin. We believe 
the Java plugin is unsafe, and we want to present that to our users.



I don't see this kind of scary warning signs for Flash player, is it ?
No. We work closely with the Flash team on security issues, and we have 
much greater confidence that security issues are handled promptly.




*3) My (jnlp) script that checks the java version [for security] is 
crushed by click-to-run firefox system.*
Here is my behavior : I check that the user has the latest java. If it 
has an old, I redirect the page to java.com  dowlod 
page, so he can downloads the latest java.

This is my script.
Now the result with firefox blocking java from the start gives this :
 - When a  users that HAS-THE-LATEST-java opens my page, my script 
detect (wrongly)  NO JAVA INSTALLED-- and it opens the java.com 
 dowload page.
   Shit, I am scared : The user has only halp a second to click on 
the url to "accept the plugin", before it refrehes to java.com 
 page.

You need to fix your site. There are a couple of signals here:

* if ('application/x-java-applet' in navigator.mimeTypes) then the user 
has a Java plugin installed
* your code should not create a plugin and immediately try to script it. 
Instead you should create the plugin and the plugin should make a 
callback into the browser to inform the browser when it has been 
created. This is important not only for click-to-play, but because 
browsers may choose to asynchronously create a plugin and you don't want 
to have race conditions.


*4) Plugin activation is only on the (left of) URL, sadly not elsewhere:*
The biggest complains I have is that I do not see a second place in 
Firefox (rather than at the left of url) where I can manually say : 
"allow and remember to accept java plugin the web site-site 
www..xyz"'. Because in my case www.free-visit.com 
 (and also of www.sweethome3d.com 
 ) there is no time to click on the url.
I don't understand what you mean. The normal activation method is for 
the user to click on the blocked plugin itself. This opens up the menu 
and allows the user to choose "Allow Now" or "Allow Always" for your site.


--BDS

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Re: java click to run problem on Firefox

[Ehsan Akhgari]

On 2013-10-10 4:47 PM, Henri Sivonen wrote:

On Oct 10, 2013 7:26 PM, "Adam Roach"  wrote:


[java source] --javac-> [java bytecode] --llvm-> [llvm bitcode]

--emscripten-> [javascript]

Or easier: [java source] --GWT-> [javascript]


Adam asked specifically about the Emscripten case, which is what I 
replied to, but there are other projects to port code from Java to 
Javascript, with various degrees of maturity.  See 
http://altjs.org/#ports.  (And yes, GWT is a decent example of that.)


Cheers,
Ehsan

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Re: java click to run problem on Firefox

[Henri Sivonen]

On Oct 10, 2013 7:26 PM, "Adam Roach"  wrote:

> [java source] --javac-> [java bytecode] --llvm-> [llvm bitcode]
--emscripten-> [javascript]

Or easier: [java source] --GWT-> [javascript]
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Re: java click to run problem on Firefox

[Adam Roach]

On 10/10/13 14:42, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
There is a java compiler that targets llvm somewhere which I can't 
find a link to right now, but it's unmaintained and IIRC it did not 
cover all of the Java syntax.  But the real problem is in the huge API 
set that the JVM provides for various platform services and in order 
to use emscripten on java code for anything except for pure 
computations you will need a javascript implementation of those bits 
(similar to the javascript libc implementation in 
. To 
the best of my knowledge nobody has ever signed up to do that work.


Interesting. It would seem to me that, if we're really serious about 
getting plugins out of the browser, we would place a pretty high 
priority on giving developers tools to migrate Java to JavaScript.



--
Adam Roach
Principal Platform Engineer
a...@mozilla.com
+1 650 903 0800 x863
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Re: java click to run problem on Firefox

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Ehsan Akhgari  wrote:
>> Has anyone here played around with the toolchain I describe above?
>
> I have looked into this briefly.  There is a java compiler that targets llvm
> somewhere which I can't find a link to right now, but it's unmaintained and
> IIRC it did not cover all of the Java syntax.

There is VMKit and J3, which claims to be a decent JVM built on top of LLVM:

http://vmkit.llvm.org/

It does state that it's more like a proof of concept, though.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: java click to run problem on Firefox

[David Rajchenbach-Teller]

Being the "firefox person" who suggested that Thierry should discuss
this on dev-platform, let me chime in.

I seem to understand that Thierry's issue is partially related to the
fact that the UX of his site was designed with the assumption that if
Java didn't start, then Java either wasn't installed or wasn't installed
correctly. The site instantly fell back to the Java-less version, which
was basically instructions on how to install Java. We discussed
alternatives detection mechanisms with Thierry, so this part is probably
a solved problem, I believe.

If I recall, Thierry would have liked a way for his users to quickly
allow Java for the page.

Thierry, does the Page Information dialog do what you need? You can open
that dialog from the small icon on the left of the address bar.

Cheers,
 David


On 10/10/13 6:09 PM, Benjamin Smedberg wrote:
> On 10/10/2013 11:44 AM, Thierry Milard wrote:
>> I have a java "Web application" (www.free-visit.net). the way Mozilla
>> manages the java player is ... killing my users experience : they have
>> not
>> choce to go to chrome, because I can not do otherwyse : java won'y run
>> even
>> f they have the latest-of-the-latest java ...wich is java7 update 40
> Can you describe the usability problem in detail? We absolutely are
> planning to continue to make all versions of Java click-to-play by
> default. Users should be presented with the choice to always activate
> Java on your site.


-- 
David Rajchenbach-Teller, PhD
 Performance Team, Mozilla
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Re: java click to run problem on Firefox

[Ehsan Akhgari]

On 2013-10-10 12:25 PM, Adam Roach wrote:

On 10/10/13 11:09, Benjamin Smedberg wrote:

We encourage you to transition your site away from Java as soon as
possible. If there are APIs which you need in the web platform in
order to make that possible, please let me know and we will try to
make adding those a priority.


I haven't personally seen it done, but it seems to me that you could do
something like:

[java source] --javac-> [java bytecode] --llvm-> [llvm bitcode]
--emscripten-> [javascript]

I'm not claiming that this would be possible without some porting
effort; my point is that one does not need to start from scratch to make
this transition.

Has anyone here played around with the toolchain I describe above?


I have looked into this briefly.  There is a java compiler that targets 
llvm somewhere which I can't find a link to right now, but it's 
unmaintained and IIRC it did not cover all of the Java syntax.  But the 
real problem is in the huge API set that the JVM provides for various 
platform services and in order to use emscripten on java code for 
anything except for pure computations you will need a javascript 
implementation of those bits (similar to the javascript libc 
implementation in 
.  To 
the best of my knowledge nobody has ever signed up to do that work.


Cheers,
Ehsan

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Re: java click to run problem on Firefox

[Adam Roach]

On 10/10/13 12:06, Thierry Milard wrote:
There are still a few things like speedy 3D That html-javascipt do bot 
do Dell enough


http://www.unrealengine.com/html5/


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RE: java click to run problem on Firefox

[Thierry Milard]

Adam, I AM NOT anytime soon Young to change to javascript. There are still a 
few things like speedy 3D That html-javascipt do bot do Dell enough... Yet.
Maybe in 3 Yeats I wiki transition ...


-Message d'origine-
De : Adam Roach
Envoyé : 10/10/2013 18:25
À : Benjamin Smedberg; Thierry Milard; dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org
Objet : Re: java click to run problem on Firefox

On 10/10/13 11:09, Benjamin Smedberg wrote:
> We encourage you to transition your site away from Java as soon as 
> possible. If there are APIs which you need in the web platform in 
> order to make that possible, please let me know and we will try to 
> make adding those a priority.

I haven't personally seen it done, but it seems to me that you could do 
something like:

[java source] --javac-> [java bytecode] --llvm-> [llvm bitcode] 
--emscripten-> [javascript]

I'm not claiming that this would be possible without some porting 
effort; my point is that one does not need to start from scratch to make 
this transition.

Has anyone here played around with the toolchain I describe above?

/a
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Re: java click to run problem on Firefox

[Adam Roach]

On 10/10/13 11:09, Benjamin Smedberg wrote:
We encourage you to transition your site away from Java as soon as 
possible. If there are APIs which you need in the web platform in 
order to make that possible, please let me know and we will try to 
make adding those a priority.


I haven't personally seen it done, but it seems to me that you could do 
something like:


[java source] --javac-> [java bytecode] --llvm-> [llvm bitcode] 
--emscripten-> [javascript]


I'm not claiming that this would be possible without some porting 
effort; my point is that one does not need to start from scratch to make 
this transition.


Has anyone here played around with the toolchain I describe above?

/a
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Re: java click to run problem on Firefox

[Benjamin Smedberg]

On 10/10/2013 11:44 AM, Thierry Milard wrote:

I have a java "Web application" (www.free-visit.net). the way Mozilla
manages the java player is ... killing my users experience : they have not
choce to go to chrome, because I can not do otherwyse : java won'y run even
f they have the latest-of-the-latest java ...wich is java7 update 40
Can you describe the usability problem in detail? We absolutely are 
planning to continue to make all versions of Java click-to-play by 
default. Users should be presented with the choice to always activate 
Java on your site.


See my blog post at 
https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2013/09/24/plugin-activation-in-firefox/ 
decribing the UI behavior and motivations.



*Question n°1*) Why is mozilla steel blocking java 7 update 40 ?

I think (I am not a security wizard) Oracle has fixed the security issues a
few month or weeks ago.
Is it not ?
Java has had a very poor security track record. Bugs reported to Oracle 
have been left unfixed for months or even years. Mozilla believes that 
Java is fundamentally not safe for most users, nor is it part of our 
vision for the open web. We intend to make it possible for users to 
continue using Java on particular sites if it is necessary for them, via 
the click-to-activate UI.


We encourage you to transition your site away from Java as soon as 
possible. If there are APIs which you need in the web platform in order 
to make that possible, please let me know and we will try to make adding 
those a priority.


--BDS

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