Re: [Heads Up][Boost] Build of dependent packages before the massive rebuild
On Sat, 9 Feb 2013 20:26:04 +0100 Denis Arnaud wrote: > Hi! > > AFAIK, the next massive rebuild is scheduled for the 12th February, > 2013. Moreover, as you may know, Boost-1.53.0 has been successfully > built already (thanks to Petr!) on Koji: > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=382788 > > So, as a few of you have already suggested, it may be a good idea to > rebuild all the dependent packages of Boost before the massive > rebuild. I intend to begin that process shortly. So, a few packages > may be broken until the full process is over. If some packages are > broken, we will have to submit bug requests. So, as some of you may have noticed, things didn't go as smoothly as we would have liked. ;( The new boost was tagged in and prep work done, commits pushed and rebuilds started. However, the newrepo task that added boost to the buildroot got stuck and it never landed. ;( So, any pending builds were canceled and resubmitted. Any builds where they finished were bumped again and resubmitted. So, hopefully everything is back on track now. There will likely be some fallout tomorrow due to dependencies (foo needs bar before it will rebuild). Hopefully we can clean that up quickly. ;) kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Package shipping their own CA and security
On 2013-02-08, 17:42 GMT, Michael Scherer wrote: > Of course, when i mean "ban all", I mean "unless exceptions". > And finding those potential exceptions is also one reason to have this > thread :) I will try to take a look at gajim ... https://bugzilla.redhat.com/909625 Matěj -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Gnome-shell workspaces (Was Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop)
On 02/09/2013 03:34 AM, Ian Malone wrote: 1. I no longer use workspaces to manage different tasks unless there are lots of windows and then I sometimes overflow onto 2. This is because they're less useful as you now can't switch without going to the activities view and they aren't segregated well. At work I have a KDE desktop and use four routinely. On my laptop, I have four workspaces. One for email, one for Eclipse, one for my pile of browser windows, and one for other stuff. I also have a terminal with many tabs in each workspace. Other than the standard shortcuts for switching between workspaces (which I rarely use), I have mapped [1-4] to directly switch between workspaces. I rarely need to go to the overview other than starting programs. As an aside, when I first saw gnome-shell, I thought it would be horrible to use. But after a while of using it, finding gnome-tweak-tool, and installing a couple of extensions, I've been quite happy with it. I actually think it's more keyboard friendly than Gnome 2 was. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
[Heads Up][Boost] Build of dependent packages before the massive rebuild
Hi! AFAIK, the next massive rebuild is scheduled for the 12th February, 2013. Moreover, as you may know, Boost-1.53.0 has been successfully built already (thanks to Petr!) on Koji: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=382788 So, as a few of you have already suggested, it may be a good idea to rebuild all the dependent packages of Boost before the massive rebuild. I intend to begin that process shortly. So, a few packages may be broken until the full process is over. If some packages are broken, we will have to submit bug requests. Kind regards Denis -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 10:22:41AM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > drago01 wrote: > > There is no easy way to install applications (regular user don't want > > to mess up with packages). > > Huh? Fire up gnome-packagekit or Apper, choose your app, make 2 or 3 clicks > (install, apply, confirm dependencies if any), enter your root password and > the app is there. How do you propose making this any easier? > > I don't understand all this app store hype. Our repository system gives you > the same advantages while being much sounder technically (automatic > dependency resolution instead of bundling everything). It is providing a solution from the maintainer perspective. Ideally everything should be packaged by a distribution. But sometimes it is nice to have a stable distribution, bit still easily be able to test a development version of some app and see if your bug has been fixed. Same for the maintainer who just wants to provide something for loads of distributions, not wait if someone makes a package for every distribution out there. A distribution does not scale as much as all individual maintainers can IMO. That said, distribution is still preferred (drawbacks of the solution like shipping your own libraries is ugly). -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB
Le 09/02/2013 19:08, Alfredo Kojima a écrit : > Hi Remi > > About bundled 3rd party libs, what is the general feeling among packagers > about these? Per packaging Guidelines, bundled libraries are forbidden (with very rare exceptions). See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:No_Bundled_Libraries So, for MW, we use the system libraries for cppconn (mysql-connector-c++) ctemplate tinyxml antlr-runtime (fedora >= 17, else version is too old, but f16 is EOL) boost curl libsigc++ yassl And ASAP : vsqlite++ mysql-utilities and mysql-connector-python are also packaged separately. > Whenever we need to use a 3rd party lib that no distribution ships, we're stuck thinking whether it's better to ship it ourselves or just leave out everything, forcing users and packagers to fetch them externally. Can you shed some light? Having bundled libraries in upstream tarball is fine, as far as it is used only when system library is not available (or by configure option) Remi. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 05:38:46PM +0100, Pierre-Yves Chibon wrote:
> The only thing I can think of is that people turning their back on you,
> not looking at you when you are asked to raise your hand on something
> they worked on, this might be intimidating to some people.
> I was not one of these, and I certainly got a different feeling from
> this talk
We were sitting at the front and thus you turn around to see how many
people are raising their hands.
In any case, I'll keep it brief. For this current argument:
- I provided a measure, added that it is likely biased
- No responses to the measure, just changing the topic into yet
something else ("GNOME developers are intimidating/looking for a
fight")
I'll leave it at that ☺
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Regards,
Olav
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Re: fedpkg: Change in git push method?
Josh Boyer venit, vidit, dixit 08.02.2013 18:56:
> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Thomas Moschny
> wrote:
>> 2013/2/8 Josh Boyer :
>>> Yes, but fedpkg is currently relying on the existing git default, which
>>> is matching. That is changing upstream in git, so fedpkg needs to set
>>> a default when it clones.
>>
>> And this default should probably be push.default=upstream.
>
> Sure, that's certainly possible.
>
> josh
That git message is pretty clear about "matching" being the former
default,so that is what fedpkg relies upon.
Note that "upstream" (i.e. the forthcoming git default) might be a
better default for fedpkg, but that would be a change in behavior for
fedpkg. ("upstream" is synonymous to "tracking")
The problem is that "fedpkg push" starts to fail on existing clones, and
changing "fedpkg clone" doesn't help with that.
Could it be that "fedpkg clone" used to set the default to "tracking"?
In any case, "fedpkg push" should use a specific refspec, or else its
behaviour will depend on the user config.
Michael
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Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 15:01 +0100, Olav Vitters wrote: > On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 08:35:56PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > > > Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit : > > > On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote: > > >> I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original > > >> statement, namely that there is a "completely different target > > >> audience" for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3. > > >> > > >> I am that datapoint. > > > > > > As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise > > > their hands). No idea how representative that it. > > > > The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz I didn't get this feeling seeing the questions asked at the end. > > too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of > > GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do > > not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is the complete refusal > > of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in the same bucket. Lennart's > > efforts to explain his project, understand sysadmin needs, provide a > > smooth transition and keep current usages working clearly paid off there. > > > > So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment for > > everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive energy > > that permeated other presentations). > > 1. The poll was right at the beginning > 2. I don't get how it is intimidating to raise your hand > 3. I don't get how we were intimidating The only thing I can think of is that people turning their back on you, not looking at you when you are asked to raise your hand on something they worked on, this might be intimidating to some people. I was not one of these, and I certainly got a different feeling from this talk Pierre -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Fedora Upgrade - using yum
Am 09.02.2013 15:52, schrieb drago01: > On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: >> Reindl Harald wrote: >>> oh even if people like i did some hundret dist-upgrades over the >>> years it was us told that linux has to go the windows way: >>> >>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OfflineSystemUpdates >> >> Yeah, this is a really insane "feature"! >> >> Let me assure you that this "feature" is only currently implemented in >> gnome-packagekit. The command-line tools will probably NEVER implement this. >> As for Apper, I can assure you that: >> * this "feature" is not currently implemented in Apper, >> * Apper's upstream author plans to support it in the future, but make it >> optional, and >> * KDE SIG has strong reservations about the usefulness and desirability of >> this "feature" and it will likely end up disabled by default in Fedora if >> implemented. > > Yes become ignoring problems by pretending that they do not exist is > the way to go why preklink not banned which also touches probably running binaries, but hey in this case it is OK because it was a fedora feature years ago and there must be good which problems? where were they over decades? who did introduce them recently? why this bugs are not fixed? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Newrepo for F-19 hanging?
On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 23:42:10 +0900 Mamoru TASAKA wrote: > Hello: > > Can someone investigate F-19 newrepo below? > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=4939667 > It seems that this task was created at Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:00:33 UTC > (more than 17 hours ago) and has not completed yet. It seems kojid died on the builder and it didn't accept the job. I restarted kojid, it failed that newrepo and is doing a new one now. Will try and see what happened... kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 03:46:57PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Michael Scherer wrote: > > Gnome-shell is not mean to be used nor appropriate for a mobile phone. > > And despite being rather usable on a touch screen ( I tested ), it is > > still not sufficient there for 1 million of details ( Vincent Untz talk > > also said the same, see gnome people to see the details ). > > But it is clearly inspired by mobile phone UIs. Why? Phones are not the > target, so why copy them? It leads to an interface which is not appropriate > for ANY platform. It's not appropriate for mobile phones for the reasons you > cite, it's not appropriate for computers because it looks and feels like a > smartphone UI, so what IS it appropriate for? Touch friendliness (but on a laptop / desktop). > Users of computers have certain expectations of how a user interface looks > like, and gnome-shell completely fails to meet those expectations (as do > Unity and Window$ 8's "Modern UI" (formerly known as "Metro"), which both > suffer from the exact same problem). In my country smart phones are outselling computers, computer sales are way down. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Michael Scherer wrote: > Well, a majority of people think such polls are useless, Do you have a poll to prove that? ;-) Seriously, the only thing more inaccurate than statistic is MADE UP statistics. :-/ > 1) 792 people. Just to compare, there is 300 people on #fedora-devel on > irc, and 800 on #puppet on irc, a media which is said to be "dying". > There as around 4000 visitors in FOSDEM in 2008, 5 years ago. So the > number of people is just low. I do truly hope we have more than a > handful 1000 users across _all_ distributions. Do you know what a "sample" is? > 2) if the fedora forums poll is biased due to "default to gnome 3", then > why isn't unity being more represented in the linuxquestion poll ? > Is it because : > - Unity, by some magic reason, do not bias anything while gnome-shell > does ( ie, your argument is invalidated by the data you cite ) ? > - Ubuntu users have their own forums, like many others distributions and > so they are not present ( and so this also bias more by being not at all > representative of a group we can safely count as million of user, ie by > taking extremly conservative view of the number given by Canonical ) > - Ubuntu users, despite perception and enough converging evidences, are > far from being a important enough group to count and to bias the poll ? The answer's right there: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2012-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-104/desktop-distribution-of-the-year-4175441843/ Looks like most Ubuntu users actually don't use Unity. Maybe it sucks even more than GNOME 3 does, maybe Ubuntu is actually better at promoting other choices (see Kubuntu and Xubuntu) than we are, or maybe LinuxQuestions is more likely to attract people using something other than the default than FedoraForum, I don't know. (There seem to be more GNOME 3 users than Fedora users on LinuxQuestions, so it looks like folks are also using GNOME 3 on other distros. Still, it's much less popular than KDE and Xfce, and compared to the year before, Cinnamon has almost caught up to it.) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Fedora Upgrade - using yum
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Reindl Harald wrote: >> oh even if people like i did some hundret dist-upgrades over the >> years it was us told that linux has to go the windows way: >> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OfflineSystemUpdates > > Yeah, this is a really insane "feature"! > > Let me assure you that this "feature" is only currently implemented in > gnome-packagekit. The command-line tools will probably NEVER implement this. > As for Apper, I can assure you that: > * this "feature" is not currently implemented in Apper, > * Apper's upstream author plans to support it in the future, but make it > optional, and > * KDE SIG has strong reservations about the usefulness and desirability of > this "feature" and it will likely end up disabled by default in Fedora if > implemented. Yes become ignoring problems by pretending that they do not exist is the way to go -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Michael Scherer wrote: > Gnome-shell is not mean to be used nor appropriate for a mobile phone. > And despite being rather usable on a touch screen ( I tested ), it is > still not sufficient there for 1 million of details ( Vincent Untz talk > also said the same, see gnome people to see the details ). But it is clearly inspired by mobile phone UIs. Why? Phones are not the target, so why copy them? It leads to an interface which is not appropriate for ANY platform. It's not appropriate for mobile phones for the reasons you cite, it's not appropriate for computers because it looks and feels like a smartphone UI, so what IS it appropriate for? Users of computers have certain expectations of how a user interface looks like, and gnome-shell completely fails to meet those expectations (as do Unity and Window$ 8's "Modern UI" (formerly known as "Metro"), which both suffer from the exact same problem). Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Newrepo for F-19 hanging?
Hello: Can someone investigate F-19 newrepo below? http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=4939667 It seems that this task was created at Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:00:33 UTC (more than 17 hours ago) and has not completed yet. Regards, Mamoru -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 11:21:49PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > I stand by my statement that this was a very awkward moment, with Vincent > and the GNOME team radiating unhappiness and pretty much everyone else > being perplexed and wondering whether they should take offence at being > accused of being mad or if it was some weird form of apology. Certainly > not the kind of celebration being portrayed here. > > As for the vocifering, I'll leave that to others. Radiating unhappiness? As you're talking about me I will reply briefly: bullshit. I would appreciate that you stop suggesting this about my and my friends, thanks. Note that and I think most other didn't know the contents of the talk that Vincent would give. Did you actually attend the presentation? It really seems you did not. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 08:35:56PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit : > > On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote: > >> I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original > >> statement, namely that there is a "completely different target > >> audience" for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3. > >> > >> I am that datapoint. > > > > As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise > > their hands). No idea how representative that it. > > The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz > too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of > GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do > not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is the complete refusal > of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in the same bucket. Lennart's > efforts to explain his project, understand sysadmin needs, provide a > smooth transition and keep current usages working clearly paid off there. > > So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment for > everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive energy > that permeated other presentations). 1. The poll was right at the beginning 2. I don't get how it is intimidating to raise your hand 3. I don't get how we were intimidating 4. A user interface is more like a bike shed than anything else Obviously I sat together with other GNOME people, as I know them. Sometimes I sit randomly in the audience. I find it curious that you find something negative about my behaviour. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: how reload udev rules and systemd on F18
On Sex, 2013-02-08 at 10:08 +0100, Florian Weimer wrote: > On 02/05/2013 07:43 PM, Sérgio Basto wrote: > > > Any advises or opinions ? > > I think you haven't yet described the original problem you're trying to > solve. Hi, When we install VirtualBox from rpmfusion , I'd like create /dev/vboxusb proxies to host system without reboot box. I want that ends with: ll /dev/vboxusb -d drwxr-x--- 4 root vboxusers 80 Fev 5 18:42 /dev/vboxusb ll /dev/vboxusb total 0 drwxr-x--- 2 root vboxusers 80 Fev 9 11:19 002 drwxr-x--- 2 root vboxusers 60 Fev 5 18:42 001 the actual scriptlet: # Assign USB devices if /sbin/udevadm control --reload-rules >/dev/null 2>&1 then /sbin/udevadm trigger --subsystem-match=usb --action=add >/dev/null 2>&1 || : /sbin/udevadm settle >/dev/null 2>&1 || : fi I already send to list /etc/udev/rules.d/90-vboxdrv.rules on this thread This on host master system . And also need add 60-vboxguest.rules on guest systems ACTION=="add", KERNEL=="vboxguest", SUBSYSTEM=="misc", OWNER="root", MODE="0600" ACTION=="add", KERNEL=="vboxuser", SUBSYSTEM=="misc", OWNER="root", MODE="0666" I know udevadm trigger probe all usb but without that don't know assign USB devices, VirtualBox is not to be install on a critical system and it is more convenient, not need reboot box and have VirtualBox system ready . If you write here the scriptlet for optimal assign of USB proxies on VirtualBox I was very grateful. Sorry for my weak English ... Thanks, -- Sérgio M. B. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Le samedi 09 février 2013 à 11:34 +, Ian Malone a écrit : > On 9 February 2013 00:37, drago01 wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Martin Sourada > > wrote: > > >> * Gnome 3's target audience does not enclose majority of Gnome 2's > >>target audience, though it *does* have some intersection. Many of > >>those are seeing this as arrogance. > > > > Being different does not imply different target audience ... same > > thing and discussion happened when GNOME 2.0 got released. > > Now the haters from back then want GNOME 2.0 back ;) > > > > Gnome 2 slowly returned to the old behaviour in many ways. Gnome 3 is > starting to do this. > > >> * Some trivial stuff is taking months to years to re-implement (shut > >>down). > > > > Nonsense. Shutdown has always been implemented. It just got presented > > differently. > > > > Hidden. On the bizarre assumption users didn't need it. based on the assumption that showing "hibernate, suspend, reboot, shutdown, log out, lock" was asking too much questions and that we could do better. See http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html for the rational of the problem. And if people had discussed with the designers, they would have seen designers answering "yes, the current design is not perfect, we are aware, but we do not know how to do better, we have to think about. For now, we have to release". In the end, you have to select a design and release. Contrary to the popular belief, Gnome took in account the KDE 4 releases lessons and pushed gnome-shell for 2 releases to avid the stability issues ( and to be fair for KDE4, the biggest stability issues came mostly from Nvidia (http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=819 ), but of course, people prefer to blame free software developers rather than questioning their choice of using a closed source binary ) And the assumption was that using the power button would have been easy enough for people to get it ( since people do get it for like almost every possible electronic stuff and likely all computers stuff except a few one ). It doesn't seems a totally bizarre assumption to me. > >> * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you > >>way. > > > > Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever > > you want with the desktop > > > > Is anyone doing that? That's the problem. Most people prefer to talk rather to do work. And then complain that the others do not do exactly what they want for free and immediately. > > > >> * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8. > > > > GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better on > > touch devices then previous releases supporting new hardware > > isn't really a bad thing imo. > > And neither much contemplated that the interface that's appropriate > for a mobile phone is not appropriate for a desktop. Gnome-shell is not mean to be used nor appropriate for a mobile phone. And despite being rather usable on a touch screen ( I tested ), it is still not sufficient there for 1 million of details ( Vincent Untz talk also said the same, see gnome people to see the details ). Gnome 3 and Gnome-shell is not for a smartphone because : 1) none of the applications are suitable for a very small screen ( like a phone ). Just try with Xnest. Or use a VM with a ridiculously low resolution. 2) given the resolution of a regular smart phone, the icon on the upper bar would either take too much space in order to be usable, or would be hard to hit. Unless you use a stylet, but I didn't see any smart phones proposing this since 2008. That's for example a problem that plagued the illume interface on the SHR distribution for the free runner. Please also note that the upper bar cannot be expended, while it is one most smartphones. So to be used on smartphone, you need to adjust it. 3) the only phone I know who can have a view of all applications is the N9 on Meego. And that's just to close applications, not to move them to another desktop or anything. Neither iPhone nor Android does it, and not even talking of symbian os. So the whole interaction is rather different. And of course, there is no keyboard shortcut for the feature, since n9 do not have keyboard. So again, you would have to make adjustment. 4) gnome-shell search need a keyboard. There is more and more refinement on it, because that's a important part of the system. Nowadays, most phones do not come with a keyboard, neither do most tablets. And the few phone with a keyboard are having a numeric keypad. Typing anything is slow in the best case. So again, that's something that would need adjustment for a smartphone. So when the developpers say this is not made for a phone, when there is actual strong evidence that it doesn't work on a phone, why do people insist on the contrary ? -- Michael Scherer -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Ian Malone wrote: > >>> * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you >>>way. >> >> Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever >> you want with the desktop >> > > Is anyone doing that? https://extensions.gnome.org/ ... seems so ;) >> >>> * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8. >> >> GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better on >> touch devices then previous releases supporting new hardware >> isn't really a bad thing imo. > > And neither much contemplated that the interface that's appropriate > for a mobile phone is not appropriate for a desktop. GNOME 3 is not a mobile phone interface. Repeating that multiple times does not make it true. > I still use Gnome > 3, despite the many helpful suggestions to change. I don't find it > quite as annoying as Windows 8 (where it's sometimes hard even to know > how to close down an app), but I do find that: > 1. I no longer use workspaces to manage different tasks unless there > are lots of windows and then I sometimes overflow onto 2. This is > because they're less useful as you now can't switch without going to > the activities view and they aren't segregated well. You have a keyboard Crtl-Alt- works fine (Odd on a "mobile phone interface" but you can do a lot of things with the keyboard). And now I think this thread is going nowhere lets stop here. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Le samedi 09 février 2013 à 11:09 +0100, Kevin Kofler a écrit : > Rave it wrote: > > > There is a current poll at fedora forum. > > http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284463 > > > > The winner is... > > There are several factors which bias this poll: > * GNOME 3 is the default in Fedora, so of course more Fedora users will be > using it, merely due to the fact that it is the default. > * Some people actually left Fedora over GNOME 3. > * Conversely, and perhaps even more importantly, many (possibly even most) > GNOME 3 users are actually using Fedora now, because Fedora is universally > recommended to people wanting to try GNOME 3 as the distro with the best > GNOME 3 support. > > If you do a poll across users of all distributions, you get very different > results: > http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2012-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-104/desktop-environment-of-the-year-4175441851/ > and I believe the results for Fedora would be very different as well if we > picked a different default. Well, a majority of people think such polls are useless, thanks to demonstrate that once more. Just to be as clear as possible, I will only speak of 2 points : 1) 792 people. Just to compare, there is 300 people on #fedora-devel on irc, and 800 on #puppet on irc, a media which is said to be "dying". There as around 4000 visitors in FOSDEM in 2008, 5 years ago. So the number of people is just low. I do truly hope we have more than a handful 1000 users across _all_ distributions. 2) if the fedora forums poll is biased due to "default to gnome 3", then why isn't unity being more represented in the linuxquestion poll ? Is it because : - Unity, by some magic reason, do not bias anything while gnome-shell does ( ie, your argument is invalidated by the data you cite ) ? - Ubuntu users have their own forums, like many others distributions and so they are not present ( and so this also bias more by being not at all representative of a group we can safely count as million of user, ie by taking extremly conservative view of the number given by Canonical ) - Ubuntu users, despite perception and enough converging evidences, are far from being a important enough group to count and to bias the poll ? -- Michael Scherer -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 9 February 2013 00:37, drago01 wrote: > On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Martin Sourada > wrote: >> * Gnome 3's target audience does not enclose majority of Gnome 2's >>target audience, though it *does* have some intersection. Many of >>those are seeing this as arrogance. > > Being different does not imply different target audience ... same > thing and discussion happened when GNOME 2.0 got released. > Now the haters from back then want GNOME 2.0 back ;) > Gnome 2 slowly returned to the old behaviour in many ways. Gnome 3 is starting to do this. >> * Some trivial stuff is taking months to years to re-implement (shut >>down). > > Nonsense. Shutdown has always been implemented. It just got presented > differently. > Hidden. On the bizarre assumption users didn't need it. >> * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you >>way. > > Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever > you want with the desktop > Is anyone doing that? > >> * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8. > > GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better on > touch devices then previous releases supporting new hardware > isn't really a bad thing imo. And neither much contemplated that the interface that's appropriate for a mobile phone is not appropriate for a desktop. I still use Gnome 3, despite the many helpful suggestions to change. I don't find it quite as annoying as Windows 8 (where it's sometimes hard even to know how to close down an app), but I do find that: 1. I no longer use workspaces to manage different tasks unless there are lots of windows and then I sometimes overflow onto 2. This is because they're less useful as you now can't switch without going to the activities view and they aren't segregated well. At work I have a KDE desktop and use four routinely. 2. I do less with my computer. Fedora installs quite a lot of applications, some of which are interesting. Occasionally I'd spot something in a menu and think 'that's interesting', I don't do this any more. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Martin Sourada wrote: > That's the first time I've seen XFCE win over GNOME, LOL. It shouldn't be, it was the same last year (and I had already posted the link back then). :-) http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2011-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-95/desktop-environment-of-the-year-919888/ Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Mass Rebuild for Fedora 19
Peter Robinson wrote: > Nor should anything that's run their "make dist" tarball process with > the latest tools. Jon Masters was going to confirm if anything was > needed for cmake and any other non autotools build tools too. If any CMake support is needed, it will be only in the system cmake package and not in a bazillion packages. There's no config.guess/sub-style file bundled in CMake-using projects. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Hi Kevin, On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 11:09:15 +0100 Kevin Kofler wrote: > There are several factors which bias this poll: > * GNOME 3 is the default in Fedora, so of course more Fedora users > will be using it, merely due to the fact that it is the default. > * Some people actually left Fedora over GNOME 3. > * Conversely, and perhaps even more importantly, many (possibly even > most) GNOME 3 users are actually using Fedora now, because Fedora is > universally recommended to people wanting to try GNOME 3 as the > distro with the best GNOME 3 support. > > If you do a poll across users of all distributions, you get very > different results: > http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2012-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-104/desktop-environment-of-the-year-4175441851/ > and I believe the results for Fedora would be very different as well > if we picked a different default. While I inherently believe that that no internet poll can present statistically relevant data (unless huge majority of user-base actually votes), it's actually interesting to see that XFCE is coming second (about 1/4 of votes), after KDE of course (about 1/3 of votes), in the poll you linked. And has twice the votes than the third, which is GNOME Shell (about 1/8 of votes). That's the first time I've seen XFCE win over GNOME, LOL. And yeah, I agree with you about the bias in Fedora poll. So, when XFCE-4.12 comes into Fedora (Fedora 20?), how about starting this flamewar again with "XFCE as Default Desktop" feature request? We already tried this with KDE and Cinnamon, after all and XFCE is the second most popular in some random internet poll ;-) Maybe we would really be better off if we provided user with the initial choice between KDE, GNOME and XFCE, instead of pointing him directly to 64bit GNOME, which does not boot on half of the world... Martin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Mass Rebuild for Fedora 19
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Dennis Gilmore wrote: >> Additionally we will be mass patching config.guess and config.sub to >> support aarch64 in preperation for 64 bit arm support > > Ugh, this really shows how bundled autocrap sucks! > > How are you going to determine the packages that need patching? Anything > running autoreconf, ./autogen.sh, KDE 3's "make -f admin/Makefile.common > cvs" or similar should not need patching (and in fact, IMHO, this should be > a requirement for autotools-based packages, exactly for this reason!). Nor should anything that's run their "make dist" tarball process with the latest tools. Jon Masters was going to confirm if anything was needed for cmake and any other non autotools build tools too. Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Package shipping their own CA and security
Michael Scherer wrote: > Le vendredi 08 février 2013 à 16:54 +0100, Miloslav Trmač a écrit : >> That's quite a few :( Don't forget about other formats - .der, .p12 >> at least; possibly also the native NSS and Java formats. > > I will add .dev and .p12. For the native formats, I am not a certificate > specialist, so I will have to look and see what can be done. It's .der, not .dev! Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Request for a firewalld secondary DHCP + PXEBOOT HOWTO
On 7 February 2013 16:41, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > On 02/07/2013 04:23 PM, Aaron Gray wrote: > > Can someone who knows firewalld please do a HOWTO to on setting up a > secondary DHCP with DNS and HTTPS access for PXEBOOTing of Fedora18 please > to go with the PXEBOOT HOWTO :- > > http://linux-sxs.org/internet_serving/pxeboot.html > > Hope someone can help, I put I message on the User List but got no > response. > > > > Well what seems to be standards sysadmin practice with firewalld on > servers is to disable it and enable iptables. > > Firewalld is aimed at desktop users and roaming hardware which makes > "zones" useless concept for static server within an corporate > infrastructure. > > So the missing steps for your guide simply are... > > systemctl stop firewalld* > systemctl disable firewalld* > systemctl enable iptables.service > systemctl start iptables.service > > Jóhann, That's okay so far, sort of makes sense, but I though firewalld had equivalent functionality to iptables. Anyway I still need a HOWTO on setting up a secondary DHCP on a second Ethernet controller in order to run PXEBOOT. Thanks for the reply anyway, Aaron -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Mass Rebuild for Fedora 19
Dennis Gilmore wrote: > Additionally we will be mass patching config.guess and config.sub to > support aarch64 in preperation for 64 bit arm support Ugh, this really shows how bundled autocrap sucks! How are you going to determine the packages that need patching? Anything running autoreconf, ./autogen.sh, KDE 3's "make -f admin/Makefile.common cvs" or similar should not need patching (and in fact, IMHO, this should be a requirement for autotools-based packages, exactly for this reason!). Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: More Mobile Broadband
Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > In Scope I see "KDE's networking layers likely require an update to use > the new API, as will any other direct client of ModemManager. However, the > functionality that most networking applets require from ModemManager is > fairly simple," Ouch, good that you noticed that. So I'd like to ask: * Does upstream for kde-plasma-networkmanagement (Lamarque Souza) know about this yet? * When is support in upstream kde-plasma-networkmanagement expected to land? I'd really like to avoid another NM-0.9-style fiasco! Seeing how kde-plasma-networkmanagement is a critical component of the release-blocking KDE spin, this feature really needs to be blocked on kde-plasma-networkmanagement support for the new API. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: the need of "Offline Updates"
Jochen Schmitt wrote: > Odd question, AFAIK I have understood the wiki page for this feature > offline updates woriking only, if you are have running a GUI on your > system. For a servere without a GuI offline update is not realize. It is actually only implemented in gnome-packagekit. Current Apper does not support this at all. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Rave it wrote: > There is a current poll at fedora forum. > http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284463 > > The winner is... There are several factors which bias this poll: * GNOME 3 is the default in Fedora, so of course more Fedora users will be using it, merely due to the fact that it is the default. * Some people actually left Fedora over GNOME 3. * Conversely, and perhaps even more importantly, many (possibly even most) GNOME 3 users are actually using Fedora now, because Fedora is universally recommended to people wanting to try GNOME 3 as the distro with the best GNOME 3 support. If you do a poll across users of all distributions, you get very different results: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2012-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-104/desktop-environment-of-the-year-4175441851/ and I believe the results for Fedora would be very different as well if we picked a different default. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB
Le 25/01/2013 19:46, Norvald Ryeng a écrit : > We'll try to do better in the future. So I will also try to work better, and so will report the annoying packaging bugs. MySQL Workbench 5.2.46 is released, so Connector/C++ http://bugs.mysql.com/68320 Missing option for library installation dir http://bugs.mysql.com/68326 ABI break between 1.1.1 and 1.1.2 MySQL Workbench: Utilities http://bugs.mysql.com/68322 mysqluc is unusable when installed in /usr/bin http://bugs.mysql.com/68323 Option missing for man page destination dir. MySQL Workbench http://bugs.mysql.com/68324 Provide an option to build with system cppconn http://bugs.mysql.com/68325 Provide an option to build without the documentation http://bugs.mysql.com/68327 Segfault with code auto completion Best regards, Remi. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Alec Leamas wrote: > On 2013-02-05 21:46, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> You ordered Gnome and have been served Pizza for a long time - now >> you're being served Burgers :-) >> > Well, from a nutrition perspective that's actually a big step forward. > Perhaps time to trust the chef? ;) Huh? A plain cheese pizza (be it an original Pizza Margherita or an American-style cheese pizza) is much more suitable as an everyday meal than a burger. You know you're not supposed to eat meat every day, right? :-) And if the cheese is too heavy for you, try Pizza Marinara (i.e., with only tomatos, garlic, and maybe some herbs). (I know this is way off-topic, but I just HAD to defend one of the Italian national dishes there. :-) ) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Adam Williamson wrote: > On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 02:59 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: >> , but since you started it: OpenSUSE is doing just fine >> doing exactly what I suggest (making people actually pick their >> download). Their download button actually points to a selector, not >> directly to an ISO. > > That would be the SUSE that along with Mandriva got completely panned > when Ubuntu showed up, then? To the point where they've since been sold > two times and have never really recovered. That was BEFORE OpenSUSE and thus BEFORE the selector was introduced. Back then, the default in SuSE was KDE and only KDE. Then Novell came and started pushing GNOME. And only then came OpenSUSE. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
drago01 wrote: > There is no easy way to install applications (regular user don't want > to mess up with packages). Huh? Fire up gnome-packagekit or Apper, choose your app, make 2 or 3 clicks (install, apply, confirm dependencies if any), enter your root password and the app is there. How do you propose making this any easier? I don't understand all this app store hype. Our repository system gives you the same advantages while being much sounder technically (automatic dependency resolution instead of bundling everything). Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Adam Williamson wrote: > ...but as Rahul said, they all allow you to log in to any desktop. There > seems to be a meme in this thread that GDM does not, but that's not > correct, it does. The choice is not visible unless you actually have > multiple desktops installed, but when you do, it gives you the option. Last I checked, GDM also hid that feature so well that many users missed it. In fact, unless this changed recently, when you input your user name, the option is NOT shown, it only appears after you confirm your user name, during the password prompt. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Debarshi Ray wrote: >> Keep in mind that to get to the point of installing an "alternative-only >> DE", in current Fedora, you normally first have a full blown Gnome3 >> installed, which is close to impossible to get rid of. > > [citation needed] There's no straightforward way to remove GNOME: "yum groupremove gnome-desktop" does NOT work, it removes half of the distro. (In fact, "yum groupremove" is entirely useless as implemented right now, let's see whether the "groups as objects" feature will make it work any better or even worse.) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Debarshi Ray wrote: >> I know this applies, but installing gnome-shell pulls in gdm. >> >> I.e. removing gdm without removing gnone-shell is not possible. > > Because gnome-shell (running in a special mode) is nowadays the greeter > used by GDM. That does not mean GDM won't let you log into KDE if you have > it installed. > > As for GDM requiring gnome-shell, I don't think it should come across as > surprising because GDM is GNOME's display manager. If you dislike GNOME so > much then get yourself a different display manager. It's the opposite dependency he's complaining about, gnome-shell requires gdm-libs, which requires gdm for some reason. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Adam Williamson wrote: > It's an *initial* state, not a never-changing one. When I first decided > I was going to try Linux, I wanted to try Linux. I wanted exactly what > our download page gives you - a simple link to a thing called Linux I > could download and fiddle with. I'm not sure I wanted my first encounter > with the Linux world to be a boxout explaining to me what KDE and GNOME > were and asking me to pick one or the other. These things are obviously > things I came to learn about later, but they're not the most fascinating > topic to deal with when you first decide you want to play around with > this here Linux thing. The desktop environment is going to be the main piece of software they're going to try out and a major part of the user experience they'll be getting. If you make the wrong choice for them, not telling them about the options at all, they'll end up disgusted of that "Linux" thing and will go back to the proprietary OS they used before, never to be seen again, and they'll never even realize that a better desktop exists. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Apache OpenOffice
Jef Spaleta wrote: > yum info dpkg That dpkg package is there only for tools like debootstrap or alien to work, not as an alternative to RPM. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Apache OpenOffice
James Hogarth wrote: > Right now there's no roadmap for 4.0 - no milestone dates, alpha dates or > beta dates... The best that exists for this is a nightly snapshot from > trunk covered in caveats about how unstable it's likely to be. > > The openoffice.org wiki doesn't even mention 3.4 much less future plans > for 4.0 on it's features page! > > http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Features > > Could you have a chat with Rob Weir to clarify IBM's timeline for the 4.0 > package and provide some hard milestone dates rather than the current > vague "April 2013" ? > > Annoyingly the AOO thread has split in my email client by I agree the > discussion about the IBM Symphony dump ( licensing concerns as out of > scope given that won't be packaged and all code will be review for license > whilst being merged to AOO however this inject of proprietary code as > opposed to the open tested code of 3.4.1 on a tight timeline is I would > submit a concern as to the likelihood of bugs and slippage from the > current vague date. AOO really seems to have degenerated into IBM's private playground. (No wonder, they're the only ones who benefit from the braindead non-copyleft licensing.) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Jan Kratochvil wrote: > From what I have reports even Fedora 32-bit does not boot on such machines > because nobody tests the bleeding edge Fedora kernels on such obsolete > hardware. FYI, kernel-3.7.3-101.fc17.i686 runs fine on a Pentium 4 Northwood (which predates EM64T, i.e. what's now known as Intel 64). It's what I'm sending this message from. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Fedora Upgrade - using yum
Reindl Harald wrote: > oh even if people like i did some hundret dist-upgrades over the > years it was us told that linux has to go the windows way: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OfflineSystemUpdates Yeah, this is a really insane "feature"! Let me assure you that this "feature" is only currently implemented in gnome-packagekit. The command-line tools will probably NEVER implement this. As for Apper, I can assure you that: * this "feature" is not currently implemented in Apper, * Apper's upstream author plans to support it in the future, but make it optional, and * KDE SIG has strong reservations about the usefulness and desirability of this "feature" and it will likely end up disabled by default in Fedora if implemented. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
