from:"M. Edward $Ed$ Borasky"

I found it - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1398717 ... I
posted a comment already that it exists with Firefox 52 / Fedora 25.

On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 3:19 PM Bojan Smojver  wrote:

> > Have you checked Red Hat Bugzilla?
>
> Yes. Nothing in there that I can find about this.
>
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Re: Firefox 52 Electrolysis

Yup - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1398717

On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 3:10 PM M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <zn...@znmeb.net>
wrote:

> Ah ... I just updated and now I have 52. And no e10s, same as you. Have
> you checked Red Hat Bugzilla? It may be a bug already filed. Meanwhile, I
> don't see anything suspicious in about:config when I search for 'e10s'.
>
> On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 3:01 PM Bojan Smojver <bo...@rexursive.com> wrote:
>
> > Are you using Fedora's Firefox or straight from Mozilla?
>
> Fedora:
>
> https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2017-bb459964ce
>
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Re: Firefox 52 Electrolysis

Ah ... I just updated and now I have 52. And no e10s, same as you. Have you
checked Red Hat Bugzilla? It may be a bug already filed. Meanwhile, I don't
see anything suspicious in about:config when I search for 'e10s'.

On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 3:01 PM Bojan Smojver  wrote:

> > Are you using Fedora's Firefox or straight from Mozilla?
>
> Fedora:
>
> https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2017-bb459964ce
>
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Re: Firefox 52 Electrolysis

Are you using Fedora's Firefox or straight from Mozilla? Right now I'm
showing Fedora's Firefox is 51.

That said, I've had numerous performance issues with e10s in the Mozilla
Firefox nightly and developer editions and I usually end up filing a bug at
Mozilla and disabling it.

On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 12:54 PM Bojan Smojver  wrote:

> Anyone understands why Firefox 52 in F25 doesn't support multi-process
> any more? Or alternatively, is there a new trick to get this working,
> apart from what is written here?
>
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Electrolysis
>
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Re: rawhide users: Do this now if you want to stick with F26 and not F27

2017-03-03 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Thanks! I'm going to clone my Rawhide VM and make an F26 with it.

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 8:46 PM Adam Williamson <adamw...@fedoraproject.org>
wrote:

> On Fri, 2017-03-03 at 20:30 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Sat, 2017-03-04 at 04:23 +0000, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> > > On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 7:01 AM Kalev Lember <kalevlem...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Now that F26 is branched off from rawhide, I know many developers
> > > > (including me) want to stay with F26 instead of F27 to make sure we
> are
> > > > testing the upcoming release. By default, everyone who has rawhide
> > > > installed stays on the F27 train.
> > > >
> > > > Here's how to switch to F26:
> > > >
> > > > $ dnf distro-sync --releasever=26
> > > >
> > >
> > > Will that downgrade properly if I've missed it by a few days?
> >
> > Yep, should do.
>
> ...however, at the moment, it won't work properly, since mirrormanager
> doesn't seem to know about F26. I expect someone will fix this soon.
>
> You should also make sure the 'fedora' repo is enabled and the
> 'rawhide' repo disabled:
>
> dnf config-manager --set-enabled fedora
> dnf config-manager --set-disabled rawhide
> --
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> http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: rawhide users: Do this now if you want to stick with F26 and not F27

2017-03-03 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 7:01 AM Kalev Lember  wrote:

> Now that F26 is branched off from rawhide, I know many developers
> (including me) want to stay with F26 instead of F27 to make sure we are
> testing the upcoming release. By default, everyone who has rawhide
> installed stays on the F27 train.
>
> Here's how to switch to F26:
>
> $ dnf distro-sync --releasever=26
>

Will that downgrade properly if I've missed it by a few days?

>
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Re: F27 System Wide Change: No More Alphas

2017-02-22 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 4:14 PM M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <zn...@znmeb.net>
wrote:

> I'm glad someone brought up Tumbleweed because every so often I build a VM
> of Tumbleweed, a VM of Rawhide and a VM of Debian "sid" just to see if I
> could use any of them as a workstation day-to-day. What I'm looking for
> mostly is the latest GNOME desktop, Firefox browser, Virtual Machine
> Manager stack and Docker stack. LibreOffice is nice but I can live without
> it, given that I have RStudio Server and PostgreSQL / PostGIS running in
> (Debian) containers.
>
> [snip]

After I posted this, I went through the Tumbleweed virtual machine exercise
again, but instead of doing containers, I decided to replicate the apps on
my current F25 workstation - R / RStudio, Calibre, QGIS and PostGIS are the
main ones. The bottom line is, while the Tumbleweed kernel and GNOME /
LibreOffice packages are nice and modern, the same cannot be said for QGIS
and PostGIS. I couldn't even get current builds for them out of their
experimental repos! I'd have to build them from source to get the latest
stable PostGIS and QGIS.

PostGIS I can run in a container, but QGIS is a desktop app - I'd have to
load up a bunch of Qt -devel packages to even build it. So to get a modern
GNOME workstation from binaries, my options are Fedora, Ubuntu / Mint or
Debian. A Fedora rolling release is looking very good to me right now.
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Re: F27 System Wide Change: No More Alphas

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 6:36 PM M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <zn...@znmeb.net>
wrote:

> It's been a while since I went through the exercise. For a while the
> Workstation Live media wasn't building and the GNOME desktop wasn't
> installing from the netinstall because LibreOffice wasn't working. More
> recently I hit some Fortran fallout from the GCC 7 mass rebuild. That would
> only be a problem if I was running host R, not R in a container. I suspect
> I'll be able to run my current workload including R on the F26 alpha
> without any problems.
>

Oh, yeah ... there are some issues with GNOME Wayland running in a Virtual
Machine Manager VM on a GNOME Wayland host that I haven't had time to
troubleshoot. I've gone back to X but at some point I need to dig into
what's happening. But that's on F25 - maybe it's fixed in Rawhide.
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Re: F27 System Wide Change: No More Alphas

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 4:50 PM Kevin Fenzi <ke...@scrye.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 00:14:56 +0000
> "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" <zn...@znmeb.net> wrote:
> ...snip...
>
> >
> > Rawhide as it currently exists can't stay solid enough for me even
> > with just the few pieces I absolutely need. Tumbleweed, for all it's
> > promise of "latest and greatest", is not supported by enough third
> > parties to be useful even as just a host. And sid is, well, sid.
>
> I'm curious what issues you hit with Rawhide? Have any examples?
>

It's been a while since I went through the exercise. For a while the
Workstation Live media wasn't building and the GNOME desktop wasn't
installing from the netinstall because LibreOffice wasn't working. More
recently I hit some Fortran fallout from the GCC 7 mass rebuild. That would
only be a problem if I was running host R, not R in a container. I suspect
I'll be able to run my current workload including R on the F26 alpha
without any problems.

>
> kevin
>
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Re: F27 System Wide Change: No More Alphas

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 4:11 PM Kevin Fenzi  wrote:


> Anyhow, I am in favor of the proposal.
>

Yes, so am I, at least until Atomic Workstation has a full GNOME desktop,
Firefox and Virtual Machine Manager ;-).
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Re: F27 System Wide Change: No More Alphas

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 3:26 PM Neal Gompa  wrote:

> I also wonder if we're thinking about this problem all wrong. What if
> the answer isn't to increase the friction in Rawhide, but instead to
> create a regular output stream that people can use to be above
> releases? That's more or less how Tumbleweed works, as it's
> essentially snapshotted and published from Factory when it "checks
> out" via the OpenQA gate. Now, OBS has the nice ability of being able
> to have granular control of how publishing actually works. I think the
> way Koji's tagging mechanism works may provide a similar capability,
> and we could leverage that to produce something like mattdm's
> oft-wanted "Fedora Bikeshed".
>
> I for one don't actually want Rawhide to be gated because it makes
> things much harder in terms of properly developing new features. We're
> simply not capable of being as good as OpenSUSE in terms of automation
> to be able to pull off the feats they do. There were major changes to
> how OpenSUSE did packaging to begin with to be able to pull off what
> they did, and I simply don't think anyone here is prepared to do even
> a small bit of that yet.
>
> And before someone brings up Factory 2.0 and Modularity (because
> someone *will*), neither of those solve the problem. Instead they
> create new ones by completely decoupling package life cycles from the
> distribution lifecycle (meaning that now it's even harder to introduce
> distribution-wide changes) and requiring us to shimmy in ways to
> handle multiple versions for creating weird bundles without being
> prepared to figure out how to actually keep that sane.
>
>
I'm glad someone brought up Tumbleweed because every so often I build a VM
of Tumbleweed, a VM of Rawhide and a VM of Debian "sid" just to see if I
could use any of them as a workstation day-to-day. What I'm looking for
mostly is the latest GNOME desktop, Firefox browser, Virtual Machine
Manager stack and Docker stack. LibreOffice is nice but I can live without
it, given that I have RStudio Server and PostgreSQL / PostGIS running in
(Debian) containers.

Rawhide as it currently exists can't stay solid enough for me even with
just the few pieces I absolutely need. Tumbleweed, for all it's promise of
"latest and greatest", is not supported by enough third parties to be
useful even as just a host. And sid is, well, sid.

If there was a "Fedora GNOME Tumbleweed" I would absolutely use it, because
the rest of Fedora's container stack - OpenShift Origin, source-to-image,
etc. - is way better than what's in Tumbleweed or Sid. Sure, I could build
that stuff from source but I don't want to waste the troubleshooting time.
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Re: Please provide "Minimal CD" of Fedora

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 11:15 AM William Moreno 
wrote:

> Just my 2 cents
>
> A minimal fedora iso with @base and @core packages can the tool for a
> advanced user to build it own fedora experience on top a minimal install.
>
> If I want just lightdm and i3, openbox, awesome etc a minimal installable
> fedora iso than do not requiere internet access at install time will be a
> excellent option.
>
> Regards
>
>
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The openSUSE installer (both net and DVD-with-packages) includes a "Minimal
X" install option. I don't remember what's in it but the window manager is
IceWM, a ratty-looking but serviceable GUI. I think it includes Firefox but
maybe a lighter browser is there. You can do the same from the Fedora net
install.

It would be pretty easy to make a lightweight Live CD with a minimal GUI, a
lightweight browser and the Anaconda installer as a Fedora remix. But
personally I'd rather see the effort go into building up the "Atomic
Desktop" as a lightweight Fedora.
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Re: Proposal: Rethink Fedora multilib support (Take Two!)

2017-01-07 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 3:16 PM Richard W.M. Jones  wrote:

> Partly because there exist more than 2 architectures (think:
> RV64G/RV64GC/RV128G, ARMv5/6/7/8, or less esoterically, having various
> CPU features like SSE or AVX compiled in and out).  Partly because
> there will be fewer differences between Fedora & Debian/Ubuntu which
> means less friction and more chance of a random proprietary binary
> simply working.
>
> Rich.
>
Random proprietary binaries do not, by definition, simply work. Proprietary
binaries work *if* the proprietor has *tested* them on the specific distro
and architecture. This isn't a game of chance, this is a software
engineering effort, hopefully with a payoff of some kind for the proprietor
and the platform vendor.
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Re: Fedora Linux subsystem on Windows machine

2017-01-06 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Nice!!

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 1:47 AM Vít Ondruch <vondr...@redhat.com> wrote:

>
>
> Dne 6.1.2017 v 10:03 Martin Bříza napsal(a):
> > On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 10:01:01 +0100, Vít Ondruch <vondr...@redhat.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Dne 5.1.2017 v 20:11 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky napsal(a):
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> And speaking of Wine, how come the Windows 10 Linux subsystem only
> >>> runs Ubuntu? Why can't I run a Fedora Linux subsystem on my Windows
> >>> machine?
> >>
> >> Just FYI:
> >>
> >>
> >> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/38802362/windows-10-wsl-with-fedora
> >>
> >>
> >> Vít
> >
> > I think that doesn't work anymore. But there's this project that
> > should work now [0], while being more user friendly and versatile.
> >
> > [0] https://github.com/RoliSoft/WSL-Distribution-Switcher
>
> Thanks for pointing this out. I knew I saw something more advanced, but
> already forgot what it was ;) I am not windows user mysefl ...
>
>
> Vít
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Re: Proposal: Rethink Fedora multilib support

2017-01-05 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 10:50 AM Daniel J Walsh  wrote:

> Well we will be retired at that point, and playing shuffle board.
>

Well, I'm retired *now* and I'm still a Fedora end-user. ;-)

But seriously ...  aren't there plenty of distros that support older 32-bit
hardware ... enough so that Fedora can draw a line in the sand and say,
Fedora 27 will be ARM and 64-bit x86 only? Let Debian support all the other
stuff and run it in a Debian container?

And speaking of Wine, how come the Windows 10 Linux subsystem only runs
Ubuntu? Why can't I run a Fedora Linux subsystem on my Windows machine?

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Re: F23 Self Contained Change: Astronomy Spin

2015-06-27 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Seems like the easiest path would be to make sure all the astronomy
packages land on the Science / KDE spin that already exists and do a
lot of marketing / blogging / etc. to a targeted group of citizen
astronomers. For that matter, maybe their should be a rebranding of
the spin as Fedora for Citizen Scientists.

On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Jonathan Wakely jwak...@redhat.com wrote:
 On 26/06/15 15:11 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:

 What about a Scientific  Astronomy spin? Looks like Scientific uses
 KDE though, *shrug*.


 I thought the point is that basing Astronomy on KDE is preferable, so
 that's a Good Thing, surely?

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Re: GCC 5 compatibility problems: GCC 4.10?

2015-05-09 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Should I file this in Bugzilla? The log file is huge and I'm guessing
there's just some default language setting that's changed between 4.9
and 5.1.1.

On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 4:57 AM, Rex Dieter rdie...@math.unl.edu wrote:
 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

 It's not in Fedora - RStudio Server. It's not in any distro; they
 package it themselves for Debian/Ubuntu, openSUSE and RHEL/CentOS. If
 you want it on Fedora you have to build it from source.

 Can you post details or references for the linking problem you're talking
 about?

 -- Rex

 On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Rex Dieter rdie...@math.unl.edu wrote:
 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

 Yes, I'm currently blocked with a major package that compiles on GCC
 4.9.1 but collapses in the link step on GCC 5.1.1. I've notified the
 upstream and they're either fix it or tell me to abandon hope of
 running on Fedora. ;-)


 What package?

 -- Rex

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Re: GCC 5 compatibility problems: GCC 4.10?

2015-05-09 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

This looks like a programming error that previous versions of GCC
didn't catch and GCC 5.1.1 does catch, not a GCC bug:



On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 12:14 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky zn...@znmeb.net wrote:
 Should I file this in Bugzilla? The log file is huge and I'm guessing
 there's just some default language setting that's changed between 4.9
 and 5.1.1.

 On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 4:57 AM, Rex Dieter rdie...@math.unl.edu wrote:
 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

 It's not in Fedora - RStudio Server. It's not in any distro; they
 package it themselves for Debian/Ubuntu, openSUSE and RHEL/CentOS. If
 you want it on Fedora you have to build it from source.

 Can you post details or references for the linking problem you're talking
 about?

 -- Rex

 On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Rex Dieter rdie...@math.unl.edu wrote:
 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

 Yes, I'm currently blocked with a major package that compiles on GCC
 4.9.1 but collapses in the link step on GCC 5.1.1. I've notified the
 upstream and they're either fix it or tell me to abandon hope of
 running on Fedora. ;-)


 What package?

 -- Rex

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CMakeFiles

Re: GCC 5 compatibility problems: GCC 4.10?

2015-05-08 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Yes, I'm currently blocked with a major package that compiles on GCC
4.9.1 but collapses in the link step on GCC 5.1.1. I've notified the
upstream and they're either fix it or tell me to abandon hope of
running on Fedora. ;-)

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Paolo Bonzini pbonz...@redhat.com wrote:
 Hi all,

 I'm encountering a few problems with GCC 5 due to code that fails to
 work with GCC major releases above 4.  In particular, there are at least
 problems with the kernel and with Coverity.

 Unfortunately, downgrading to Fedora 21's GCC 4.9 is very hard in Fedora
 22, unless you only care about the C compiler.  This is because the C++
 compiler wants a matching libstdc++, and most C++ packages need the GCC
 5 libstdc++ (maybe because of the ABI changes, I don't know).

 Is it outrageous to ask for a compatibility GCC package that declares
 itself as 4.10?  This is similar to how kernel 3.0 was initially
 packaged as 2.6.40.  Or perhaps there is another possibility that I
 haven't thought of?

 Thanks,

 Paolo

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Re: GCC 5 compatibility problems: GCC 4.10?

2015-05-08 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

It's not in Fedora - RStudio Server. It's not in any distro; they
package it themselves for Debian/Ubuntu, openSUSE and RHEL/CentOS. If
you want it on Fedora you have to build it from source.

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Rex Dieter rdie...@math.unl.edu wrote:
 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

 Yes, I'm currently blocked with a major package that compiles on GCC
 4.9.1 but collapses in the link step on GCC 5.1.1. I've notified the
 upstream and they're either fix it or tell me to abandon hope of
 running on Fedora. ;-)


 What package?

 -- Rex

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Re: Moving Docker image under Cloud edition?

2015-04-13 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I left off two pieces

6. Fedora Docker Hub images, and
7. CentOS Docker Hub images, which are vastly more popular than the Fedora ones.

On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 11:49 AM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky
zn...@znmeb.net wrote:
 Agreed - it's too late to change anything for F22. But moving forward,
 I think there's a discussion that needs to happen about the
 inter-relationships of the various projects associated with Cloud:

 1. OpenShift Origin
 2. RHEL Atomic
 3. Fedora Atomic
 4. CentOS Atomic
 5. fedora-dockerfiles

 and the underlying upstreams - Docker and Kubernetes. Some questions:

 1. Will OpenShift Origin ever be distributed via Fedora?
 2. Will CentOS Atomic always be independent of both Fedora Atomic and
 RHEL Atomic?
 3. Will there always be three forums for interaction with the
 fedora-dockerfiles project (GitHub issues, Cloud Trac and RedHat
 Bugzilla?)

 I note that many of the pieces here are clearly marked as for
 developers - not ready for production. So the over-arching question
 for me as a user/developer is, When *will* they be ready for
 production?

 On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Joe Brockmeier j...@redhat.com wrote:
 On 04/09/2015 02:37 PM, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
 On Thursday, April 09, 2015 12:07:55 PM Joe Brockmeier wrote:
 On 04/08/2015 06:41 PM, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
 the docker base image is part of the Base WG. so it seems wrong to put it
 on the Cloud page,  but we should do something to advertise it more.

 But there's no Base WG page or anything... I know it's sitting there
 now, but I don't think end users care about which working group does it.

 Conceptually, it seems to me to fit with Cloud. Other suggestions welcome.

 I'm also curious whether there should be some closer collaboration
 between base wg and cloud on the container image(s)?

 there probably should be closer collaboration, it started under the cloud WG
 and was moved to the Base WG. I do not really mind where it sits, but it
 should not go flip flopping.

 OK. And apologies for contributing to that, but we're all still figuring
 things out there.

 I suppose the best answer for now is to ride out the F22 release as-is
 and see about changing for F23 and forward?

 Best,

 jzb
 --
 Joe Brockmeier | Principal Cloud  Storage Analyst
 j...@redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/
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Re: Moving Docker image under Cloud edition?

2015-04-13 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Agreed - it's too late to change anything for F22. But moving forward,
I think there's a discussion that needs to happen about the
inter-relationships of the various projects associated with Cloud:

1. OpenShift Origin
2. RHEL Atomic
3. Fedora Atomic
4. CentOS Atomic
5. fedora-dockerfiles

and the underlying upstreams - Docker and Kubernetes. Some questions:

1. Will OpenShift Origin ever be distributed via Fedora?
2. Will CentOS Atomic always be independent of both Fedora Atomic and
RHEL Atomic?
3. Will there always be three forums for interaction with the
fedora-dockerfiles project (GitHub issues, Cloud Trac and RedHat
Bugzilla?)

I note that many of the pieces here are clearly marked as for
developers - not ready for production. So the over-arching question
for me as a user/developer is, When *will* they be ready for
production?

On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Joe Brockmeier j...@redhat.com wrote:
 On 04/09/2015 02:37 PM, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
 On Thursday, April 09, 2015 12:07:55 PM Joe Brockmeier wrote:
 On 04/08/2015 06:41 PM, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
 the docker base image is part of the Base WG. so it seems wrong to put it
 on the Cloud page,  but we should do something to advertise it more.

 But there's no Base WG page or anything... I know it's sitting there
 now, but I don't think end users care about which working group does it.

 Conceptually, it seems to me to fit with Cloud. Other suggestions welcome.

 I'm also curious whether there should be some closer collaboration
 between base wg and cloud on the container image(s)?

 there probably should be closer collaboration, it started under the cloud WG
 and was moved to the Base WG. I do not really mind where it sits, but it
 should not go flip flopping.

 OK. And apologies for contributing to that, but we're all still figuring
 things out there.

 I suppose the best answer for now is to ride out the F22 release as-is
 and see about changing for F23 and forward?

 Best,

 jzb
 --
 Joe Brockmeier | Principal Cloud  Storage Analyst
 j...@redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/
 Twitter: @jzb  | http://dissociatedpress.net/


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Re: How to build one TeXLive subpackage for EPEL-7?

2015-04-08 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 12:30 AM, Matěj Cepl mc...@cepl.eu wrote:
 On 2015-04-08, 01:06 GMT, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote:
 Just package it separately.  They should all have proper upstream
 tarballs, and there's no reason not to just make individual packages if
 that's what you need.  And, hey, while you're at it, stick them in
 rawhide and make the texlive package not generate them at all.  Anything
 that gets split out of texlive into proper packages is a win.

 Cutting up texlive monster piece by piece seems like rather
 lousy idea to me. After all that long thread about texlive which
 just happened here I am afraid dealing with the monster must be
 done in some more sensible and organized matter.

 Anyway, I'll try to make a special EPEL package for it.

 Matěj
 --
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One reason I'm building my OSJourno Docker images on Fedora and not
the more popular and theoretically more stable CentOS is that EPEL
doesn't have a few LaTeX packages I need. Sometime when I run out of
more pressing things to fix, I'm going to try texlive-texliveonfly to
see if it can find and install missing LaTeX packages.

Seriously, texlive is huge - if you install *everything* IIRC you have
something like 4 GB just for texlive! So there's every reason to want
to install a minimal texlive and install packages on an as-needed
basis. And I'm curious why there are texlive packages in Fedora that
aren't in EPEL - I assume it's a human or machine resource constraint.

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Re: Why does disk I/O slow down a CPU bound task?

2015-03-30 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Dave Johansen davejohan...@gmail.com wrote:
 I noticed on RHEL 6 that when a large amount of disk I/O is happening that
 CPU bound tasks slow down. I have been able to reproduce it in Fedora 21
 as well and here are the instructions of how I can reproduce it with a
 simple test:

 1) Build the disk_test.cc (the CPU bound task) and run it.
 2) Create a large file to copy ( fallocate -l 10G junk ).
 3) Copy that file with a one minute delay between copies ( while true; do cp
 junk junk2; sleep 60; done )

 If you direct the output of disk_test.cc to a file, then you can plot the
 results in gnuplot with the following commands to see the change in the mean
 time between finishing the work cycle when the file is being copied:
 set xdata time
 set timefmt %s
 plot out.txt using 1:3 with lines

 You can also notice that the load average is also going up, so it seems like
 something in the kernel/scheduler is getting some sort of exclusive lock in
 the disk I/O process and that's causing the CPU bound task to not be able to
 execute when it should. Any ideas?

 Thanks,
 Dave

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This has been an issue in Linux for a long time. It was old news in
2008 when I dug into it. Basically, the response you will get when you
say It hurts when I do that is Don't do that! ;-)

As a well-known performance engineer once said, The only good I/O is
a dead I/O. Cache as if your life depended on it, use SSDs when you
can afford them, etc. If you *must* build on top of rotating disks,
there are tools to tune the I/O schedulers - blktrace and systemtap
are the best ones at the low level.

By the way, the Linux load average counts both CPU-bound tasks (R
state) and I/O-bound tasks (D state). That's why the load average is
going up. But the cure is to not design I/O-bound applications. ;-)

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Re: Why does disk I/O slow down a CPU bound task?

2015-03-30 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 2:43 PM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote:

 https://lwn.net/Articles/572911/
 https://lwn.net/Articles/467328/

Yeah, I vaguely remember that discussion. I went down this rabbit hole
in mid-2008, wrote a couple of papers and moved on with my life.
There's no software solution - get faster hardware and more RAM and
don't design I/O-bound systems.

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Re: A proposal for Fedora updates

2015-03-26 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Bojan Smojver bo...@rexursive.com wrote:
 Maybe I'm misunderstanding how things work, but I think every package in
 updates-testing is signed by a human, on an offline machine (i.e. someone
 has to walk the RPM to it using physical media, sign it and then bring it
 back and upload it), which may be causing some of these delays. So, I was
 thinking of a more relaxed signing key, which would used directly by the
 build system after people build the packages. Virus and malware scanning at
 this point would be useful, of course, but would not catch everything -
 that's for sure.

 PS. Apologies if the above is misinformation. Going from memory here, from
 the days of that Fedora compromise a few years ago.

 --
 Bojan

Either way I'd still probably do it - when I ran Debian and Gentoo I
ran testing and rarely had to reinstall. I guess the Debian analogue
would be sid? I guess it would be a tradeoff between the new repo
and just running Rawhide, though.

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Re: A proposal for Fedora updates

2015-03-26 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Bojan Smojver bo...@rexursive.com wrote:
 Kevin Fenzi kevin at scrye.com writes:

 If you wish to test something before it's fully pushed to testing, you
 can download it directly from the buildsystem via the web interface,
 koji command line or bodhi client command line.

 I am fully aware of that. I'm making a different point entirely here.

 Imagine a regular Fedora user - the one that has no idea about koji. This
 regular user wants to contribute by testing packages as they are built. This
 user is willing to trust a lower quality key in his/her Software (or
 whatever is the current fashion) manager to get the latest stuff, hot off
 the presses.

 And yet, such a user would have no idea new packages were available and
 would have a hard time (relatively speaking) getting them. So, I'm
 suggesting we create a fastrack for Fedora, so that more people can do
 this and easier. It would be totally optional etc.

 --
 Bojan

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As a bleeding-edge user I'd be in favor of this, although I thought
that was what 'updates-testing' was. I currently have updates-testing
disabled, but now that I have all my scripts migrated from yum to dnf
it wouldn't be a drastic event to enable it.

flame-proof-hatCan we have the rolling release discussion again
after F22 goes stable?/flame-proof-hat ;-)



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Re: service accepting commands from the network by default

2015-02-22 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Yes, I would think:

a) all services should be disabled and their ports closed by default, and
b) the documentation should describe how to enable the service and
open the ports

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 6:04 AM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
zbys...@in.waw.pl wrote:
 Are Fedora packages allowed to have a default configuration in which
 the service accepts commands from the network in the default
 configuration?

 The daemon is not enabled by default, so the administrator has to do a
 systemctl enable/start first.  This means that just installing the
 package does not create a problem, and an explicit admin action is
 necessary for the daemon to start listening. Nevertheless, I'm still
 worried that people will start the service to try it out without
 reading the fine print and will be vulnerable to attack. I would think
 that the Packaging Guidelines cover this, but I don't think they do.

 Zbyszek
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Re: yum or dnf in the Fedora 22 Docker base image?

2015-02-18 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I've got a build process that uses Live Media Creator instead of Image
Factory if it'll help - see
https://bitbucket.org/znmeb/osjourno/src/344cb38b042e352f6198e789ddeeb8654a7a96ed/4Experimental/LiveMediaCreator/

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 1:06 AM, Václav Pavlín vpav...@redhat.com wrote:

On 17.2.2015 12:33, Daniel J Walsh wrote:

Not that I know of.
On 02/16/2015 09:50 AM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

Thanks! Are there tracking bugs in Bugzilla I can subscribe to?

I don't think there are any - feel free to file it.

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Daniel J Walsh dwa...@redhat.com
wrote:

On 02/16/2015 12:31 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 5:19 AM, Daniel J Walsh dwa...@redhat.com
wrote:

I think the F22 and Rawhide (Is it F23 at this point), should both use
dnf
not yum. We need to get more testing on dnf in containers.

I'm ready to start testing F22 containers either way and would prefer
dnf. What's the best process to get this rolling? Who owns the image -
release engineering or Project Atomic? The reason I ask is that
Project Atomic has their own mailing list and uses Trac, not the Red
Hat Bugzilla, for issue tracking.

Either way, my main upstream component (RStudio Server) may end up
stuck with F21 - it doesn't link with the latest Boost right now and
they only support CentOS and Debian/Ubuntu.

Vaclav is handling this right now. I don't see this as owned by
ProjectAtomic.

The problem currently is I am not able to build any Fedora image due to some
Anaconda problems. I'll get back to you as soon as I have something helpful.

Vašek

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Developer Experience
Brno, Czech Republic

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Re: yum or dnf in the Fedora 22 Docker base image?

2015-02-16 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 5:19 AM, Daniel J Walsh dwa...@redhat.com wrote:

 I think the F22 and Rawhide (Is it F23 at this point), should both use dnf
 not yum.  We need to get more testing on dnf in containers.

I'm ready to start testing F22 containers either way and would prefer
dnf. What's the best process to get this rolling? Who owns the image -
release engineering or Project Atomic? The reason I ask is that
Project Atomic has their own mailing list and uses Trac, not the Red
Hat Bugzilla, for issue tracking.

Either way, my main upstream component (RStudio Server) may end up
stuck with F21 - it doesn't link with the latest Boost right now and
they only support CentOS and Debian/Ubuntu.
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Re: yum or dnf in the Fedora 22 Docker base image?

2015-02-16 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Thanks! Are there tracking bugs in Bugzilla I can subscribe to?

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Daniel J Walsh dwa...@redhat.com wrote:

 On 02/16/2015 12:31 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
 On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 5:19 AM, Daniel J Walsh dwa...@redhat.com wrote:

 I think the F22 and Rawhide (Is it F23 at this point), should both use dnf
 not yum.  We need to get more testing on dnf in containers.
 I'm ready to start testing F22 containers either way and would prefer
 dnf. What's the best process to get this rolling? Who owns the image -
 release engineering or Project Atomic? The reason I ask is that
 Project Atomic has their own mailing list and uses Trac, not the Red
 Hat Bugzilla, for issue tracking.

 Either way, my main upstream component (RStudio Server) may end up
 stuck with F21 - it doesn't link with the latest Boost right now and
 they only support CentOS and Debian/Ubuntu.
 Vaclav is handling this right now.  I don't see this as owned by
 ProjectAtomic.
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yum or dnf in the Fedora 22 Docker base image?

2015-02-14 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Right now, the fedora:rawhide image on Docker Hub uses yum instead of
dnf, as does the Fedora 21 release. Is there any plan to switch this
release over to dnf?

I'm in the process of refactoring my remix - big pieces of it are
going into Docker images. I'm wondering if it's worth porting the main
workstation to dnf if the Docker pieces will still be on yum.

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Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 22 Branched 20150214 nightly compose nominated for testing

2015-02-14 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Adam Williamson
adamw...@fedoraproject.org wrote:

 Do note my follow-up email about this compose being DOA, though.

Dang! Any ETA for a live one? I have a gcc bug I want to
troubleshoot. I've got a huge compile that works with F21 but died
painfully with Rawhide a few days back.

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Re: Mass Fortran rebuilds due to new GCC?

2015-02-13 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I need FORTRAN for R and R packages - if it's not 100% for the R
ecosystme I'd consider any bugs to be at least blockers for beta, if
not alpha.

On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 12:59 PM, Björn Esser bjoern.es...@gmail.com wrote:
 Am Freitag, den 13.02.2015, 13:53 -0700 schrieb Kevin Fenzi:
 On Fri, 13 Feb 2015 12:47:07 -0800
 Susi Lehtola jussileht...@fedoraproject.org wrote:

  Hi,
 
 
  as has happened many times before, the GCC bump in rawhide has broken
  all Fortran packages, desperately needing a mass rebuild.

 Can you expand on the breakage? Is it that they no longer rebuild?
 Or that they no longer run?

 I think, he's talking about the fact they are segfaulting…  ;)


  Unfortunately, rpm is blissfully unaware of any breakage happening
  (BZ #1192617) so maintainers won't even know when this breakage
  happens.
 
  Before I start rebuilding packages, are there any plans to do the
  rebuilds soon..?

 There is no mass rebuild this cycle. It would be good to isolate the
 scope here and see what needs to be rebuilt. Do you have a list of all
 affected packages or a way to come up with one?

 Why is mass rebuild skipped this time?

 For this particular case it is:  repoquery --whatrequires libgfortran

 Cheers,
   Björn

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Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 22 Rawhide 20150207 nightly compose nominated for testing

2015-02-07 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Any Cloud images, especially Project Atomic hosting and Docker base?
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Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 22 Rawhide 20150207 nightly compose nominated for testing

2015-02-07 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Thanks!! I'll fire up a VM as soon as my Rawhide Workstation VM
finishes its so-far-perfect test run.

On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Adam Williamson
adamw...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
 On Sat, 2015-02-07 at 18:49 -0800, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
 Any Cloud images, especially Project Atomic hosting and Docker base?

 Looks like Atomic showed up to the party a bit later:

 https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/work/tasks/5990/8855990/Fedora-Cloud-Atomic-20150207-rawhide.x86_64.raw.xz

 (and also, although fedfind doesn't see it,
 https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org//work/tasks/5990/8855990/Fedora-Cloud-Atomic-20150207-rawhide.x86_64.qcow2
  - fedfind assumes there will only be one image per koji task,
 apparently that wasn't a safe assumption, looks like I know what's
 next on the todo list :)
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Re: Plan of Record for Fedora 22 Network Install Media

2015-01-28 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 12:53 AM, Kamil Paral kpa...@redhat.com wrote:

 I have missed that discussion, so if it has been decided already, I'm late. 
 But my feeling is that we're going to shoot ourselves in the foot with this. 
 Our QA test matrices will explode once again, and we will be offering too 
 many images with almost indistinguishable differences to our users.

 The only difference seems to be branding (which can be generic) and 
 partitioning scheme. People installing Server and Cloud are usually pretty 
 capable of choosing their preferred partitioning scheme. I think this is not 
 worth 3 more netinst images.

 But I guess most of my objection is caused by the QA point of view.
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My sentiments too - One netinstall is enough, though I'd expand the
menu on it for more selectivity. I haven't looked recently but I think
there are more package groups than those listed on the right-hand
panel of the netinstall menu. Have the desktops on the left panel and
the package groups on the right and mix-and-match.



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Re: Plan of Record for Fedora 22 Network Install Media

2015-01-23 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:24 PM, Stephen Gallagher sgall...@redhat.com wrote:
 (Cross-posted to the WG mailing lists; please reply only to devel@)

 == Overview ==

 Today in #anaconda, we had a discussion of the plans for network install
 media for Fedora 22. We acknowledged that the network install (and more
 generally, unattended installation) story in Fedora 21 was somewhat
 lacking. In particular, there was user confusion around how to deploy
 Fedora Workstation in an unattended manner.

 Some of the problems we faced in Fedora 21 were a result of not having
 necessary plumbing in Anaconda (largely because we didn't even realize
 this until well into Beta phase, at which point we just started breaking
 out the duct tape and chewing gum). In particular, we needed a way for
 individual Fedora editions to provide a mechanism for specifying
 different defaults (such as automatic partitioning rules or the default
 environment group that would be displayed in an attended install).
 Without these things, while we could produce media with separate
 graphical branding, we couldn't truly produce separate network installs
 for Cloud, Server and Workstation. So we settled on producing only the
 Server network install media.

 == Output ==

 In Fedora 22, we will be producing four network install ISOs:
  * Fedora Server
   - Server branding
   - Default environment group: Fedora Server
   - Auto-partitioning defaults: LVM on XFS (except /boot)
   - Responsible WG: Server WG
  * Fedora Workstation
   - Workstation branding
   - Default environment group: Fedora Workstation
   - Auto-partitioning defaults: LVM on EXT4
   - Responsible WG: Workstation WG
  * Fedora Cloud
   - Cloud branding
   - Default environment group: Fedora Cloud
   - Auto-partitioning defaults: TBD
   - Responsible WG: Cloud WG
  * Fedora Generic (name TBD)
   - Generic Fedora branding
   - Default environment group: minimal
   - Auto-partitioning defaults: TBD
   - Responsible WG: Base WG

 In addition, there is ongoing discussion around media for bare-metal
 Fedora Atomic installations. This has not been finalized, but will
 likely result in an additional output.

 While each of these network installs will be *capable* of also
 installing any of the other products (though possibly not with the
 expected auto-paritioning), we have agreed that QA testing will only be
 performed on the intended environment group target for the branded
 media. We will not advertise or make any special effort to support other
 targets.


 == Remaining work that needs to be done ==

 Release engineering will need to modify their compose tools to produce
 each of these install trees, as well as handling the necessary mirroring
 functions.

 The working groups responsible for each of these install media will be
 responsible for performing the following tasks before the Alpha Freeze
 (ideally well before, so we can run test composes and fix issues without
 slipping):

  * Modify the appropriate fedora-productimg-$PRODUCT package to include
 an anaconda extension model that will extend the InstallClass and set
 the default environment group and optionally modify the
 auto-partitioning functionality.
  * Review the contents of comps-f22.xml.in and the related kickstart
 files in spin-kickstarts to ensure that the install media contains the
 appropriate content.

 For simplicity in understanding who to contact, it would be beneficial
 if each of the responsible working groups would nominate an individual
 to be the point of contact on these changes. I volunteer myself to
 represent the Server WG in this capacity.


 Given that we branch on February 10th enter Alpha Freeze on February
 24th, I'd like to propose a soft deadline (a check-in) on February 9th
 with a hard deadline on February 16th in order to have time to run at
 least one test compose prior to Alpha Freeze.



 == Acknowledgements ==

 The cast of characters involved in this discussion were:
  * Stephen Gallagher (Server WG)
  * Dennis Gilmore (Release Engineering)
  * Brian C. Lane (Anaconda)
  * Ian McLeod (Project Atomic)
  * David Shea (Anaconda)
  * Adam Williamson (QA)

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rant
My first question is why do there need to be four branded network
install releases? If they're all capable of making a workstation,
server, cloud image or generic Fedora, why not just have *one* network
install release and a more user-friendly menu for choosing the package
groups / packages?

Second, do there need to be so many live spins? I can see one for each
desktop (except GNOME, since that's Workstation) and Sugar on a
Stick, but are people really downloading the Science spin, the
Robotics spin, the Design Suite, Fedora Jam, etc. often enough to
justify the project resources they consume? It's a simple yum/dnf
command to layer any of these on top of

Re: no error handling in Yum any more?

2014-12-21 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I've seen this before - it's probably some network glitch. I fixed it
by killing the yum job, rebooting, running 'yum clean all' and running
a speed test before restarting the yum job.

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Felix Miata mrma...@earthlink.net wrote:
 I started a yum upgrade process. When it reached 342/784 (@avahi) over half
 an hour ago, the screen writing from the process simply halted. Ps on another
 tty shows Yum is still running. Disk space and RAM are ample. Top shows
 virtually no CPU in use. Nothing seems amis in the tail of /var/log/yum.log.
 How does one find out why nothing is happening?
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Re: chromium

2014-12-20 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 5:51 PM, Gerald B. Cox gb...@bzb.us wrote:

 On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 8:33 AM, john.tiger john.tigernas...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Also as developers, we need to work with all browsers.
You need to work with all *popular* browsers. That's IE, Chrome
stable, Firefox stable and iOS Safari, perhaps Opera. Look at your
website's analytics and see what people are using to view your site
and test with those. *Chromium* has never been popular and hopefully
never will.

 If you're concerned about keeping your applications working with Chrome your
 best bet would be to install google-chrome-unstable to stay
 on the forefront of compatibility.  You can easily also switch to
 google-chrome-stable and google-chrome-beta if you wish.
 I don't believe you're going to get access to the chromium builds as quickly
 and easily.  Just ain't gonna happen anytime soon.
 I don't know anyone who even bothers with installing Chromium.  If you turn
 around and install Pepper Flash anyway, what's the point?

The last time I even touched Chromium was when it was the default
browser in Lubuntu. Fortunately the Lubuntu folks went back to
Firefox. ;-)
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Re: docker 1.4.0 available, fixes multiple CVEs - testing/karma needed

2014-12-12 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Working here on F21 - karma logged!

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 7:57 AM, Lokesh Mandvekar
l...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
 I've updated docker to 1.4.0 for fedora and fedora epel. This release fixes:
 CVE-2014-9357: https://access.redhat.com/security/cve/CVE-2014-9357
 CVE-2014-9358: https://access.redhat.com/security/cve/CVE-2014-9358
 CVE-2014-9356: https://access.redhat.com/security/cve/CVE-2014-9356

 It'd be great if people could test these and add karma/comments:
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/docker-io-1.4.0-1.fc21
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/docker-io-1.4.0-1.fc20
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/docker-io-1.4.0-1.fc19
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/docker-io-1.4.0-1.el6

 Thanks!
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Re: Workstation Product defaults to wide-open firewall

2014-12-11 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Is there an upvote mechanism for that? I'd like to join the chorus if I can. ;-)

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote:
 Kevin Kofler wrote:
 I just happened to look at the firewalld default settings, and I was not
 amused when I noticed this:
 http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/firewalld.git/tree/FedoraWorkstation.xml
  port protocol=udp port=1025-65535/
  port protocol=tcp port=1025-65535/
 This firewall is a joke! ALL higher ports are wide open!

 FESCo ticket filed: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1372

 Kevin Kofler

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Re: Poll: How users use DNF

2014-12-09 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I have yet to port my scripts (https://bitbucket.org/znmeb/osjourno)
from 'yum' to 'dnf'. I'm not sure I am going to unless the live ISO
creation tools also switch. But I have tried both 'dnf' and 'yum'
manually during the F21 alpha and beta test phases. I think there were
cases where 'yum' said there were updates and 'dnf' didn't. And it
seemed like 'dnf' was slower.

My main use case is 'yum update' - I rarely use the Software tool on
the desktop.

On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Radek Holy rh...@redhat.com wrote:
 Dear users of YUM and DNF,

 I'm writing to you regarding a request for your feedback. I would be very 
 grateful if you could send me a brief description of how you use YUM or DNF 
 currently or how would you like to use it. I am particularly interested in 
 the occurrences of dnf/yum install calls in your scripts. What does these 
 scripts do and what do they expect when they call the install command in 
 different situations?

 Please share with me the use cases, not the description of the install 
 command. Think twice before you share something because I believe it's not as 
 easy as it might seem. As an example I think it might be something like:

 - I call YUM install, because I want to get given packages into my system 
 and I don't care whether it requires an upgrade or downgrade or what. or
 - I want to get them there but it should protect me against dangerous 
 operations like downgrades or
 - I often make typos, so I expect that the program knows what I mean or
 - it would be nice if it would literally perform the installation; if any of 
 the packages cannot be installed because of any reason, it should fail.

 Not something like: that's obvious that the install command should never 
 downgrade packages.

 Please focus on *use cases*. The *real* (non-hypothetical) use cases. Not on 
 the command's name as it might also result in a new command (while preserving 
 the well-known install command together with an appropriate behaviour).

 I don't mind if you send it offlist (or to another list). I think there is no 
 need to comment on anyone's use case. Every case is valid. Just not every 
 case can be supported.

 Thank you very much in advance.
 --
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 Associate Software Engineer
 Software Management Team
 Red Hat Czech
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Re: Workstation Product defaults to wide-open firewall

As one who maintains a remix for journalists, I expect the default for
a workstation should be that you mus* explicitly know what you are
doing to open a port, and enable or start a service - the default
release should have a minimum attack surface by design. As a result of
this discussion I plan to modify my remix so that is the case - ports
open by default in Fedora 21 Workstation will be closed in OSJourno.
I'm on the fence over the ports below 1024, but I suspect those should
be closed as well.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote:
 On Mon, 2014-12-08 at 18:40 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:

 * vulnerable port open

 Yeah, see, this bit right here is the actual issue.  Curiously, AV
 software on Other Operating Systems has had the ability to delegate this
 very policy decision to the user session for at least a decade, and yet
 nobody on this thread seems to have any desire to _write code_ to _fix
 the problem_.

 Instead we are treated to infinite spew about how nostalgic we are for a
 security model we learned in 1996.  Sorry y'all, port-based security
 does not match reality's threat model.  Let's be better than that.

 - ajax

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Re: Workstation Product defaults to wide-open firewall

This would be a good topic for the retrospective, I think.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_21_Retrospective#Could_have_been_better
;-)

In my specific case,  'firewall-cmd --set-default-zone=public' in my
kickstart file makes this issue go away.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Alec Leamas leamas.a...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 08/12/14 16:33, Matthew Miller wrote:

 On Mon, Dec 08, 2014 at 02:31:58PM +, Ian Malone wrote:

 There are three products: workstation, server, cloud. Workstation is
 the one for desktop use. That leaves server to aim for the traditional
 fedora user base, since cloud is (understandably) a very different
 thing. So if you want a desktop system with a security focus where do
 you look now?


 So, it's important to understand — here on the devel list, certainly —
 that these three are part of a marketing strategy, and in order for
 such a thing to be effective and not just fluffy talk, it does involve
 technical changes to match the plan.


 I have no problems with this. However, besides the technical/marketing
 trade-offs, here is also a process issue. Obviously, a lot of people were
 surprised by Kevin's finding that the workstation firewall was default open
 for ports  1024.

 Tracking this issue back we find [1] where the workstation group  tried to
 just disable the firewall. This started some threads. FESCO rejected the
 change request.

 For me, this issue then disappeared from my radar. It seems that after FESCO
 turned down the wide-open system option the discussion was in the
 workstation list, where they ended up opening all user ports (?) and
 implemented this.

 When a lot of people are surprised, isn't that a sign of a process problem?
 Should we try to avoid surprises like this?. If so, how?

 (I'm not trying to be argumentative or to blame anyone; if my pidgin English
 gives that impression please ignore it).


 Cheers!

 --alec



 [1] https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1301

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Re: Workstation Product defaults to wide-open firewall

+1 - I've added 'firewall-config' to my remix and changed the default zone
to 'public'. I'm not sure what the impact would be of closing off
dhcpv6-client and mdns is so I left those open. I left ssh open because the
service is disabled by default.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote:

 Alec Leamas wrote:
  Tracking this issue back we find [1] where the workstation group  tried
  to just disable the firewall. This started some threads. FESCO rejected
  the change request.
 
  For me, this issue then disappeared from my radar. It seems that after
  FESCO turned down the wide-open system option the discussion was in the
  workstation list, where they ended up opening all user ports (?) and
  implemented this.

 To me, it is obvious that the Workstation WG is in deliberate contempt of
 FESCo's decision. That alone ought to lead to sanctions from FESCo. In
 addition, FESCo's decision must be implemented properly by a security
 update
 ASAP. A wide-open firewall is a security issue. We CANNOT leave it unfixed.
 (For a precedent, where a deliberate security hole was forced to be closed
 in an update, see the Fedora 12 PackageKit policy fiasco:

 https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-November/msg00926.html
 )

 Kevin Kofler

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Re: Workstation Product defaults to wide-open firewall

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 6:37 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote:

 What we want this discussion to lead to is:
 1. the decision to get fixed in a security update, like the PolicyKit
 policy
for PackageKit in F12 (which was also deliberate, but broken) was, and

Agreed - is Workstation the only Fedora-branded release with those ports
open?


 2. the whole flawed concept of per-Product configuration to be abandoned
 for
all future Fedora releases, seeing what it has lead to.

Well - I'd chalk this up to a missed communication rather than something
wrong with the concept of products and product-specific configuration.
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Re: Tick-tock release cadence?

2014-12-05 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 6:58 PM, Michel Alexandre Salim
sali...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
 On 12/05/2014 01:32 AM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
 As a user/re-mixer, I don't like it. I'm at the point now where I need
 a rolling release. I can live with a six-month or eight-month lag
 between desktop updates, but I can't live without regular updates to R
 and R packages, PostgreSQL/PostGIS, QGIS, the Python data science
 tools, etc. And I'm running the Developer Edition of Firefox, which
 updates almost every day.

 There's only one major distro now with a calendar-driven release
 cadence, and quite frankly I don't know how they do it. Everyone else
 is either rolling, try for calendar but don't ship if it's fatally
 broken (Fedora and openSUSE), or ship when it's solid and stable and
 supportable (Debian and RHEL).

 I'm probably going to run at least one of my machines on Rawhide after
 the F21 release, but I think the sweet spot is what openSUSE has
 done - a stable release with a nominal eight-month cycle and a rolling
 release (Tumbleweed) layered over that. I'd like Fedora to at least
 consider something similar.


 Minor version updates are allowed by the update policy, and packages
 like Firefox are in effect on a rolling release anyway. I believe R is
 also updated quite regularly.

 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy#All_other_updates

 Do we have the manpower for a Tumbleweed-style repo that is built
 against the stable release as its core? Or perhaps the present upgrade
 policy is sufficient, and the lack of updates Ed cite is already a
 reflection of a lack of available manpower to update the packages he
 mentioned (apart from PostgreSQL, where we wouldn't want to upgrade
 mid-release).

PostgreSQL is a good example - 9.4 is in the release candidate stage
right now and will probably be declared stable within a month. If it
doesn't at least make it into updates-testing before F22, I'll be
adding 9.4 from the PostgreSQL project's RPM repos or building it from
source. I need a major new feature - Binary indexable JSON storage.
GDAL and QGIS are other examples; I ran for a couple of months
building gdal 1.11.0 from source and installing QGIS from non-Fedora
repos because I needed those features and they weren't in
updates-testing.

If the packages are at least in Rawhide, I suppose I can download them
to a local repo and use them from there.


 Ed, could you perhaps cite specific R and Python tools where you find
 the current version to be insufficiently up-to-date?

I'm not a Python programmer and I don't currently use the Fedora RPMs
for most R packages. I have to have all the package building
infrastructure anyhow, so it's easier to build them from source.

I can name two instances during the F21 release cycle where I needed
newer packages than what was in the F21 branch. One was nikola 7.1.0,
which is a Python package, and the other was nodejs-glob, which is an
npm package. In both cases I had to go upstream to get them. I assume
those will make it into updates before the F22 branch ;-).


 We could perhaps create a tracker for update requests, and provide a
 Bugzilla template for it linked to from the package database and from
 the Fedora homepage - that way we could prioritize what packages users
 really want updated.

That does seem like a good way to do it. Would that also have an
impact on the automation / testing queues once the source RPMs were
built by a human package maintainer?
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Re: Tick-tock release cadence?

2014-12-05 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote:
 And for once I think the KDE SIG and the GNOME Desktop Team will agree on
 something. :-)

Other than the fact that LXDE doesn't use enough RAM? ;-)

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Re: Tick-tock release cadence?

2014-12-05 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 10:25 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote:
 And unfortunately, a new PostgreSQL IS incompatible, because if you just run
 yum update, your databases will cease to work. You have to actually dump
 them BEFORE doing the upgrade (or downgrade PostgreSQL for the dump, or
 install the old version in parallel, which is not supported by the RPMs),
 then do the upgrade, and then import the dump. As long as upstream does not
 change this migration policy, it will NEVER be possible to provide newer
 PostgreSQL release series un updates.

I thought PostgreSQL fixed that a couple of years ago - upgrade in
place was the most-requested feature for a long time. But I can see
why DBAs wouldn't trust it after having mastered the
dump-upgrade-restore process.
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Re: Tick-tock release cadence?

2014-12-04 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

As a user/re-mixer, I don't like it. I'm at the point now where I need
a rolling release. I can live with a six-month or eight-month lag
between desktop updates, but I can't live without regular updates to R
and R packages, PostgreSQL/PostGIS, QGIS, the Python data science
tools, etc. And I'm running the Developer Edition of Firefox, which
updates almost every day.

There's only one major distro now with a calendar-driven release
cadence, and quite frankly I don't know how they do it. Everyone else
is either rolling, try for calendar but don't ship if it's fatally
broken (Fedora and openSUSE), or ship when it's solid and stable and
supportable (Debian and RHEL).

I'm probably going to run at least one of my machines on Rawhide after
the F21 release, but I think the sweet spot is what openSUSE has
done - a stable release with a nominal eight-month cycle and a rolling
release (Tumbleweed) layered over that. I'd like Fedora to at least
consider something similar.

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 9:27 AM, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com wrote:
 On Thu, 2014-12-04 at 09:39 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:


 What do you think? Would this help towards the goals listed above?
 Would it help _other_ things? What downsides would it bring?

 I think it is not useful to set up a general mechanism of alternating
 releases and borrow a name for it before you've discussed what concrete
 tasks in release engineering and qa there are that we just cannot get
 done. You're essentially asking ask to buy the cat in the bag...

 If we agree to this, will we get

 https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/5721

 resolved for f22 ? What about

 https://phab.qadevel.cloud.fedoraproject.org/T377

 I think it is much better to talk about concrete goals and tasks in the
 rel-eng and qa space than about 'tick-tock' schedules. We're building an
 OS after all, not a cuckoo clock :-)



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Re: PVM: Retire or not to retire?

2014-12-03 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

PVM in particular and high-performance computing in general are
severely broken in most Linux distros and applications. First of all,
there's licensing - the GPU folk, especially NVidia, aren't willing to
back down as long as their intellectual property strategies are making
them rich. For example, I took a stab at enabling OpenCL on Fedora 21
after seeing it in the release notes and ran into a bunch of bugs and
piss-poor / non-existent documentation.

Second, most of this stuff is clever hacks by scientists who aren't
software engineers. I'm somewhat unique - I've spent a big chunk of my
life in scientific applications programming / software engineering,
but most scientists have to be taught the basics - the shell, version
control, etc. - by the likes of the Software Carpentry project.

Personally, I say go ahead and kick PVM out of Fedora. IMHO a distro
should provide the kernel, compilers and interpreters, installers,
desktops, filesystems, virtualization, etc. and end-user applications
/ language communities should distribute stuff that works on any
distro. Nobody's going to be the best distro for bioinformatics,
audio engineering, robotics, web design, etc. - that's not the way
open source works.

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Richard Shaw hobbes1...@gmail.com wrote:
 Is anyone going to scream if PVM get's retired?

 Upstream was last updated in 2009 as far as I can tell...
 It's packaging is atrocious...
 The source is copied to the buildroot and compiled in place...
 It violates the packaging guidelines in multiple bad ways...
 Also see: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1029469

 If someone wants/needs it then they need to step up and fix the open bugs
 and at least make an attempt at getting ti closer aligned to the packaging
 guidelines.

 Thanks,
 Richard

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Re: PackageKit refresh(?) is wiping out local repositories and changing owner to root

2014-11-29 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Yes! I have the exact same problem or a very similar one. My local repo is
already maintained by 'root' It's on '/opt/LocalYumRepo' and when the
magic happens, it gets copied to '/opt/LocalYumRepo.tmp'. but the RPMs in
*both* directories are deleted!

I don't know, however, if this is new to Fedora 21 or even a 'bug'. I
hacked up a workaround - disable the repo except when I'm actively using
it. Have you done a Bugzilla search for this? Do you know what part of the
package maintenance chain is actually messing with the local repos?

On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 4:20 PM, Sandro Mani manisan...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 Today it happened a handful of times that my local rpm repository got
 wiped out (except for the repodata folder), and owner/group changed to
 root/root (including the repodata folder). After playing around a bit, I
 noticed that a

 $ pkcon refresh

 will consistently wipe out my local repository [1]. Putting an audit watch
 on an rpm on the repo will actually confirm that PackageKit removed the
 file, see below [2]. However, the odd thing is that PackageKit was last
 updated Nov 18 on my system, and also downgrading to
 PackageKit-1.0.1-1.fc22 from Oct 21 does not help, so I'm wondering whether
 it is really PackageKit who is responsible. Updates of yesterday and today
 do not really seem to be of any relevance.

 Anyone else seeing this? Any ideas how to debug this?

 Thanks,
 Sandro

 
 [1] If it matters, repo file is

 $ cat /etc/yum.repos.d/local.repo
 [local]
 name=Local
 baseurl=file:///home/sandro/rpmbuild/repo
 enabled=1
 gpgcheck=0
 metadata_expire=0

 [local-source]
 name=Local - Source
 baseurl=file:///home/sandro/rpmbuild/SRPMS
 enabled=0
 metadata_expire=0
 gpgcheck=0

 
 [2] $ sudo ausearch -f /home/sandro/rpmbuild/repo/
 mingw32-qtspell-0.4.0-1.fc22.noarch.rpm -i
 
 type=CONFIG_CHANGE msg=audit(30.11.2014 01:15:48.332:497) : auid=unset
 ses=unset op=updated rules path=/home/sandro/rpmbuild/
 repo/mingw32-qtspell-0.4.0-1.fc22.noarch.rpm key=repo list=exit res=yes
 
 type=PROCTITLE msg=audit(30.11.2014 01:15:48.332:498) :
 proctitle=/usr/libexec/packagekitd
 type=PATH msg=audit(30.11.2014 01:15:48.332:498) : item=1
 name=/home/sandro/rpmbuild/repo/mingw32-qtspell-0.4.0-1.fc22.noarch.rpm
 inode=5505054 dev=08:03 mode=file,664 ouid=sandro ogid=sandro rdev=00:00
 obj=unconfined_u:object_r:user_home_t:s0 nametype=DELETE
 type=PATH msg=audit(30.11.2014 01:15:48.332:498) : item=0
 name=/home/sandro/rpmbuild/repo/ inode=5513217 dev=08:03 mode=dir,775
 ouid=sandro ogid=sandro rdev=00:00 obj=unconfined_u:object_r:user_home_t:s0
 nametype=PARENT
 type=CWD msg=audit(30.11.2014 01:15:48.332:498) :  cwd=/
 type=SYSCALL msg=audit(30.11.2014 01:15:48.332:498) : arch=x86_64
 syscall=unlink success=yes exit=0 a0=0x7fd7401f88e0 a1=0x
 a2=0x7fd7401f8801 a3=0x7fd763e53970 items=2 ppid=1 pid=1902 auid=unset
 uid=root gid=root euid=root suid=root fsuid=root egid=root sgid=root
 fsgid=root tty=(none) ses=unset comm=PK-Backend
 exe=/usr/libexec/packagekitd (deleted) subj=system_u:system_r:rpm_t:s0
 key=repo
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Re: PackageKit refresh(?) is wiping out local repositories and changing owner to root

2014-11-29 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

P.S.: I think it's caching the RPMs somewhere in /var - I can go look if it
matters.

On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 6:40 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky zn...@znmeb.net
wrote:

 Yes! I have the exact same problem or a very similar one. My local repo is
 already maintained by 'root' It's on '/opt/LocalYumRepo' and when the
 magic happens, it gets copied to '/opt/LocalYumRepo.tmp'. but the RPMs in
 *both* directories are deleted!

 I don't know, however, if this is new to Fedora 21 or even a 'bug'. I
 hacked up a workaround - disable the repo except when I'm actively using
 it. Have you done a Bugzilla search for this? Do you know what part of the
 package maintenance chain is actually messing with the local repos?

 On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 4:20 PM, Sandro Mani manisan...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 Today it happened a handful of times that my local rpm repository got
 wiped out (except for the repodata folder), and owner/group changed to
 root/root (including the repodata folder). After playing around a bit, I
 noticed that a

 $ pkcon refresh

 will consistently wipe out my local repository [1]. Putting an audit
 watch on an rpm on the repo will actually confirm that PackageKit removed
 the file, see below [2]. However, the odd thing is that PackageKit was last
 updated Nov 18 on my system, and also downgrading to
 PackageKit-1.0.1-1.fc22 from Oct 21 does not help, so I'm wondering whether
 it is really PackageKit who is responsible. Updates of yesterday and today
 do not really seem to be of any relevance.

 Anyone else seeing this? Any ideas how to debug this?

 Thanks,
 Sandro

 
 [1] If it matters, repo file is

 $ cat /etc/yum.repos.d/local.repo
 [local]
 name=Local
 baseurl=file:///home/sandro/rpmbuild/repo
 enabled=1
 gpgcheck=0
 metadata_expire=0

 [local-source]
 name=Local - Source
 baseurl=file:///home/sandro/rpmbuild/SRPMS
 enabled=0
 metadata_expire=0
 gpgcheck=0

 
 [2] $ sudo ausearch -f /home/sandro/rpmbuild/repo/
 mingw32-qtspell-0.4.0-1.fc22.noarch.rpm -i
 
 type=CONFIG_CHANGE msg=audit(30.11.2014 01:15:48.332:497) : auid=unset
 ses=unset op=updated rules path=/home/sandro/rpmbuild/
 repo/mingw32-qtspell-0.4.0-1.fc22.noarch.rpm key=repo list=exit res=yes
 
 type=PROCTITLE msg=audit(30.11.2014 01:15:48.332:498) :
 proctitle=/usr/libexec/packagekitd
 type=PATH msg=audit(30.11.2014 01:15:48.332:498) : item=1
 name=/home/sandro/rpmbuild/repo/mingw32-qtspell-0.4.0-1.fc22.noarch.rpm
 inode=5505054 dev=08:03 mode=file,664 ouid=sandro ogid=sandro rdev=00:00
 obj=unconfined_u:object_r:user_home_t:s0 nametype=DELETE
 type=PATH msg=audit(30.11.2014 01:15:48.332:498) : item=0
 name=/home/sandro/rpmbuild/repo/ inode=5513217 dev=08:03 mode=dir,775
 ouid=sandro ogid=sandro rdev=00:00 obj=unconfined_u:object_r:user_home_t:s0
 nametype=PARENT
 type=CWD msg=audit(30.11.2014 01:15:48.332:498) :  cwd=/
 type=SYSCALL msg=audit(30.11.2014 01:15:48.332:498) : arch=x86_64
 syscall=unlink success=yes exit=0 a0=0x7fd7401f88e0 a1=0x
 a2=0x7fd7401f8801 a3=0x7fd763e53970 items=2 ppid=1 pid=1902 auid=unset
 uid=root gid=root euid=root suid=root fsuid=root egid=root sgid=root
 fsgid=root tty=(none) ses=unset comm=PK-Backend
 exe=/usr/libexec/packagekitd (deleted) subj=system_u:system_r:rpm_t:s0
 key=repo
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Re: Fedora 21 Final blocker bug status report #1

2014-11-22 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

downloading now

On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 4:52 AM, Patrick Laimbock patr...@laimbock.com
wrote:

 On 22-11-14 07:25, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

 I'll volunteer to test
 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1146232 f21 workstation
 ships 'default' network, so loses connectivity when run in a VM -
 libvirt / gnome-boxes - when do we expect TC3?


 The various iso images can be found here:
 http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/21_TC3/

 HTH,
 Patrick

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Re: Fedora 21 Final blocker bug status report #1

2014-11-22 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Got it - karma given ;-)

On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky zn...@znmeb.net
wrote:

 downloading now

 On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 4:52 AM, Patrick Laimbock patr...@laimbock.com
 wrote:

 On 22-11-14 07:25, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

 I'll volunteer to test
 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1146232 f21 workstation
 ships 'default' network, so loses connectivity when run in a VM -
 libvirt / gnome-boxes - when do we expect TC3?


 The various iso images can be found here:
 http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/21_TC3/

 HTH,
 Patrick

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Re: Fedora scientific packaging

2014-11-21 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

The two I want most are RStudio (desktop and server) and R Commander.
RStudio does exist in RPM form but the packages are made via 'cmake' rather
than by Fedora's process, and the server's using the old school /etc/init.d
rather than systemd. R Commander's much easier - you just have to package
it's dependencies and deploy its desktop file.

When I get the time to work on a long-term project I may take a shot at
RStudio in COPR. OpenSUSE Build Service has source RPMs for RStudio but
they're many revisions old and seem to be unmaintained.

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 11:32 AM, Sandro Mani manisan...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello,

 Some time ago I started working on packaging Salome, the platform for
 numerical simulation. As always, time is a limited resource, and things
 kinda stalled after hitting a few issues here and there, despite most of
 the work being done. Now, with Jiri Kastner joining the effort, we decided
 that it would be nice to attempt to make the effort of packaging scientific
 packages for Fedora in general more public, in particular considering the
 scientific-spin effort [1].
 Many of the larger scientific packages tend to be very complex and their
 build systems occasionally somewhat fragile... So getting more interested
 people involved would likely increase the chances of the efforts succeeding.

 That said, there is now a github repo which contains the work-in-progress
 stuff for packaging Salome (and some initial OpenFOAM work) here [2].
 People interested in joining these efforts or sharing initial work on other
 scientific packages are very welcome to join the github project.

 Best,
 Sandro


 [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Scientific_Spin
 [2] https://github.com/fedora-scientific/

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Re: Fedora scientific packaging

2014-11-21 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I think the Fedora policy requires more of a commitment from maintainers
than I can offer. In any event, I know RStudio Server can be built from
source on Fedora and that it works but it needs a lot of detailed attention
to turn it into something that will make it into a release. It has a few
dependencies - gwt, for one - that aren't in Fedora so their source needs
to be packaged in the source RPM.

There's also the question of upstream - they have a build process that
makes usable binaries for openSUSE and Fedora but only support the server
on Debian, Ubuntu, RHEL and CentOS. I did get them to fix some issues when
their run-time dependencies messed up a Fedora R upgrade, but I don't know
if they'd actively participate in a distro packaging effort. They'd need to
be asked.

All that said, this is a good time to start such a project, since Fedora 21
is about two weeks away from release. I have a COPR project opened but
haven't put anything in it yet -
https://copr.fedoraproject.org/coprs/znmeb/rstudio/

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 8:38 PM, Suchakra sucha...@fedoraproject.org
wrote:

 Hi,

  What do you say, Ed?  If I get the package review done, will you help
 with
  bugs and maintenance?
 
  --Pete

 I am using RStudio actively on Fedora using the rpm they provide.
 Though it works just about satisfactorily for me standalone,  it would
 really be nice to have it in our repos. I can help in testing/bugs and
 occasional maintenance.

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Re: Fedora 21 Final blocker bug status report #1

2014-11-21 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I'll volunteer to test https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1146232
f21 workstation
ships 'default' network, so loses connectivity when run in a VM - libvirt
/ gnome-boxes - when do we expect TC3?

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Adam Williamson adamw...@fedoraproject.org
 wrote:

 Hi folks! We're now into the Fedora 21 Final freeze period, and we
 really need to address blocker bugs promptly to try and make the
 scheduled release date. On the current schedule Go/No-Go will happen on
 2014-12-04, which means we really need the final release candidate built
 by 2014-12-02, so even if December feels like a long time away, it
 really isn't that much time to get everything fixed!

 Blockers needing fixes
 ==

 anaconda and friends
 

 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1166598 going back to
 installation destination picker swaps partitions on disks

 This was spun out from #1158533.

 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1165714 ValueError: new
 size will not yield an aligned partition

 Seems like dlehman knows what needs doing here, and just needs to do it.

 others
 --

 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1130794 Missing high
 contrast icon - setroubleshoot

 An icon has been submitted for this, but I'm not sure it's actually the
 kind of icon that was wanted. AIUI, 'high contrast' is for
 vision-impaired folks. Might need some input from a11y and art people
 here.

 Blockers needing testing / karma
 

 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1160499 Missing high
 contrast icon - anaconda

 This should be testable in TC3, which is currently being built.

 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1165261 ipa-server-install
 fails when restarting named - freeipa

 This fix just missed the boat for TC3, but it should be relatively easy
 to test; install TC2 or TC3, update freeipa manually from
 updates-testing, and check that ipa-server-install (or a rolekit deploy)
 works.

 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1164889 support TLS 1.1 and
 later - openldap

 This should be testable by updating a FreeIPA server to
 openldap-2.4.40-2.fc21 and then...???...trying to enrol a client with
 ipa-client-install?

 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1146232 f21 workstation
 ships 'default' network, so loses connectivity when run in a VM -
 libvirt / gnome-boxes

 The 'fix' for this is a gnome-boxes build which drops the requirement
 for libvirt-daemon-config-network . That build has been included in TC3;
 I believe the expectation is that TC3 Workstation should not include
 libvirt and so should not be subject to this bug, we can check that. The
 update is marked as fixing the dependent bug
 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1164492 .

 If devs can work on the blockers that need fixing, and QA folks can help
 test and up-karma the fixes that need testing, that'd be great - thanks!
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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

2014-11-18 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I'm killfiling this thread and I'm inches away from leaving the mailing
list. Can we move on?

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to wrote:

 On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 16:22:54 -0600,
  Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote:


 Is there a bug report about this? Could you point me to it if so? i686
 is absolutely a supported architecture, it's just not one that's
 regularly tested.


 This is the one for webkit:
 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1103967

 I got this partially confused with the one for xchat:
 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1101811
 The xchat one is where another library is the culprit.

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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

2014-11-16 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Gerald B. Cox gb...@bzb.us wrote:

 I went back and reviewed Fedora Forbidden Items
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Forbidden_items?rd=ForbiddenItems and
 saw nothing that applied to the situation with Firefox.  While I agree with
 the statement:  The concerns raised are that the default configuration
 is an opt-out vs. opt-in model of Firefox issuing network calls back to
 Mozilla's servers, and Fedora's user base expects opt-in for these sorts
 of things.; I also expect that same user base would overwhelmingly prefer
 using Firefox (with ads), Chromium or Google Chrome over Epiphany, Midori
 or Konqueror.

 If you can disable the ads in Fedora's packaging, then by all means do
 so.  Changing default packages however is a big deal and IMO the only other
 browser that could match the universal compatibility and functionality of
 Mozilla Firefox is the Chromium project.  Chromium has yet to debut in the
 Fedora repositories... so that situation would have to be remedied first.


I'm a huge fan of both Fedora and Firefox. Please don't put me in a
position where I have to choose between them for some silly non-technical
issue.
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Re: Decision on Fedora Product branding: Fedora $PRODUCT 21 vs Fedora 21 $PRODUCT

2014-10-21 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Fedora 21 Workstation
Fedora 21 Server
Fedora 21 Cloud

That makes it easy for us remixers - CompJournoStick 21 Workstation, for
example.



On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 11:06 AM, Simo Sorce s...@redhat.com wrote:

 On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:28:16 -0400
 Stephen Gallagher sgall...@redhat.com wrote:

  Hello folks,
 
  I raised a question with the Board a couple weeks ago[1] as to how we
  should be branding the different releases. It's been clear that
  different groups have different opinions on whether we should call
  something Fedora Server 21 vs. Fedora 21 Server (and Workstation and
  Cloud, of course).
 
  I was asked by the Board to get input from each of the working groups
  as well as marketing and branding folks. I'm sending this to each of
  these lists, but PLEASE keep all replies on the
  devel@lists.fedoraproject.org list or it will be impossible to keep
  track of the replies. (I've set the reply-to header on this email;
  please try not to lose it).
 
  A few specific comments that have been made on the Board ticket (to
  avoid rehashing them).
 
  * Fedora Server 21 sounds like we've had 21 releases of Fedora
  Server and we certainly haven't.
  * Should we start all of the Products at version 1 and say built on
  the Fedora 21 platform?
 
  Anyway, we need to have a consistent branding decision made for the
  release (and for the Ambassadors). So please come prepared to find a
  consensus (not to win a fight).
 
 
  [1] https://fedorahosted.org/board/ticket/11

 Fedora 21 - Server ?

 Simo.

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Re: btrfs as default filesystem for F22?

2014-10-04 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I'm happy with ext4. Just out of curiosity, though, how is XFS working out
on RHEL 7?

On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Ian Kent ra...@themaw.net wrote:

 On Fri, 2014-10-03 at 13:18 +0200, Juan Orti Alcaine wrote:
  El 2014-10-03 11:38, Steven Whitehouse escribió:
   Hi,
   I should also add (just in case anybody gets the wrong idea!) that I
   think it should definitely be made as easy as possible for anybody who
   wants to evaluate running btrfs on Fedora, but it is far too early to
   make it the default yet,
  
 
  I agree with your opinion, it's a bit too early. An experienced user can
  deal with the idiosyncrasies of btrfs and it's great when you learn it,
  but pushing it as the default seems too adventurous.
 
  I want to add to the list of problems the performance degradation over
  time in database-like files (journal, vm images, firefox and other
  sqlite db). I have experienced minutes of delay consulting the journal
  in heavily fragmented journal files.

 I still have to agree with not making btrfs the default.

 Sadly, I see BUG(), ENOSPC error reports (seem to have returned), and
 btrfs-progs SEGV reports on the btrfs mailing quite regularly and while
 much of the functionality may now be stable all the features of the
 default file system will get stressed more than the other file systems,
 including the perhaps not so stable ones.

 
  --
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  https://miceliux.com
 


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Re: (Rawhide users) Fedora 22 branching: What You Need To Know

2014-07-10 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I'm ready to start my application testing on a Fedora 21 virtual
machine. What's the quickest way for me to get one built? Is there a
'net install' ISO file somewhere I can use?

On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 11:38 AM, poma pomidorabelis...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 10.07.2014 18:31, Stephen Gallagher wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 On 07/10/2014 11:45 AM, poma wrote:

 On 10.07.2014 13:11, Stephen Gallagher wrote:

 One thing I discovered last night. There's a bug with the new
 fedora-release packages and yum/dnf are kind of arbitrarily
 picking from fedora-release-[standard|cloud|server|workstation]
 to install if you just update. (This is in large part because
 these are just placeholder packages and don't have any content in
 them yet).

 To avoid issues going forward, before you do the distro-sync
 above, you probably want to 'yum install
 fedora-release-$something' where $something is either 'standard'
 (for non-productized Fedora) or one of the Products, which your
 environment will evolve more into the closer we get to Alpha.

 I'll try to work out what we need to do to make that transition
 cleaner from F20-F21, but for Rawhide-F21 it's going to be a
 bit manual for a while.


 # grep fedora-release /var/log/yum.log ... Updated:
 fedora-release-21-0.9.noarch ... Erased:
 fedora-release-rawhide-21-0.7.noarch

 Is this enough to stay on F21 or I still need e.g.
 'fedora-release-standard' for non-product-specific, that is as we
 use now on Fedora 20?


 You'll want to install fedora-release-standard manually right now to
 make sure you have the right version going forward.


 Done deal, thanks.


 We're working to figure out how to get that to install by default on
 upgrades.


 Good luck with that!


 (Alternately, feel free to use -server or -workstation as well, if you
 want to move towards that environment going forward).


 Those two goes camping in virtwood. :)



 poma



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Re: Do you think this is a security risk and if not is it a bad UI decision?

2013-05-05 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote:

[snip]

 Look, please, by all means, calmly discuss the merits of the decision.
 Just don't bring into question the motivations of its introduction
 unless you have a damn strong factual basis for doing so.

I maintain an open source project for computational journalists. The
intended deployment model is as virtual machines for people who might
very well be working, as I often do, in coffee shops with unsecured
WiFi and excellent pastries. There are plenty of risks involved
already in that milieu, as noted here:
http://mashable.com/2013/04/27/hacked-starbucks/

Passwords visible for a significant period of time will essentially
render my main modus operandi - installing a virtual machine over the
Internet - too risky in public settings. In the long run I need to
build a better deployment model anyway, and I'm committed to Fedora
going forward on this project for many other reasons. But if I have a
vote, my vote is to eliminate password visibility entirely.

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Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?

2013-05-03 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I usually install either from the default desktop Live media or the network
install, depending on what I'm doing. The advantages to the net install are

1. The image fits on damn near anything. I think it's too big for one of
those 220 MB mini-CDs now but a 512 MB USB stick or a regular CD is fine.
2. You get to pick the desktop and the packages, including stuff that's not
on the DVD.
3. If you're in the middle of an N-month release cycle, you don't have an
extra huge package download for updates - you get the latest when you're
done.

I could live perfectly well without the DVD. Maybe we should take a leaf
from the Ubuntu folks and ship a CD-sized server installer.


On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:32 AM, Jaroslav Reznik jrez...@redhat.com wrote:

 - Original Message -
  On 05/01/2013 06:37 PM, Pádraig Brady wrote:
 
   Why are we tied to DVD-5, 4.7GB (4.3GiB) at all?
   Do we distribute DVDs?
 
  Yes.  Check with Fedora Ambassadors in EMEA.

 No. For Fedora 18, we did not have installation DVD media
 produced. One reason was missing Secure Boot support, another
 was - Multi Live DVD is more convenient to try Fedora. Only
 a few people asks for DVD for some reasons and we shipped
 installation DVDs to countries with limited internet access
 as DVD with bunch of software is pretty handy there. But
 nobody complaint after we start shipping Live DVDs only
 (probably it's also because of lifted CD size limitation -
 it now includes everything for daily use).

 But it leads to the question - how many people still prefer
 Installation DVDs? That default offering to download is
 Desktop Live spin now, KDE SIG officially supports KDE spin
 for installation... As EMEA Ambassadors, we distribute Multi
 Live DVDs only now.

 Jaroslav

 
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Re: Do you think this is a security risk and if not is it a bad UI decision?

2013-05-03 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I didn't notice this the last time I did an install. But yes, it's a
*problem* if it does that. I'll upvote or whatever if someone re-opens; I
do so many installs in coffee shops that I would flat out not use a distro
that did this!


On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:28 PM, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to wrote:

 On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 23:26:51 -0400,
   Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 05/03/2013 11:22 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:


 It's not like the people entering the password don't know it is visible.


 On the contrary, it is entirely unexpected that the UI will not hide it.


 Are you refering to someone ther than the person who is looking at the
 screen while typing in their password? Surely the person doing that will
 know it is visible and not enter it while someone is obviously looking at
 their screen.

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Re: F19 DVD over size - what to drop?

2013-05-02 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Is there actual data from what people 'yum install' we could use to make
decisions? I suspect most people install from the desktop default media and
then just add the stuff they want. If we know what that stuff they want
is, that's what should be on the DVD.


On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote:

 Chris Murphy (li...@colorremedies.com) said:
 
  On May 2, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to wrote:
 
  
   This is pretty much what happened with CD images. Eventually this will
 change, but it isn't clear to me that this is the right time to make that
 change.
 
  CentOS 6 uses two DVD images. Apple, before dropping DVD's with new
  computers, went with two DVD's for a period, even though they had
 hardware
  that supported DVD/DL. There's precedent. If it's going to cause
 aneurisms
  figuring out what to drop, just use two images.

 Chained images? We dropped split media support in the installer, so it
 would need to be two different images without installer changes.

 Bill
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Re: Idea: {Gnome,KDE,Xfce,...} Minimal Desktop groups

2013-04-29 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

My minimal desktop is OpenBox with fbpanel and lightdm. I'm guessing
there are others; openSUSE has a minimal desktop using a stripped
IceWM. I've lived comfortably with WindowMaker and even twm.

The key to minimizing a desktop IMHO is getting a lighter browser.
It's really hard to use a machine without a browser these days, and
both Firefox and Chromium are humongous. They've got great JavaScript
engines but who needs all that other stuff?

On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Richard W.M. Jones rjo...@redhat.com wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 07:49:23PM +0200, Sandro Mani wrote:
 I would define minimal as the absolute minimal set of packages which
 allows the shell to load. This resulting setup is not meant to be
 usable without the user installing additional packages he or she
 wishes. So such groups would not be meant for normal users
 (whatever that means), but for developers and power-users which want
 to build up their setup from the bottom up.

 How about a lightweight desktop environment (it would just come with
 twm/fvwm or similar plus a terminal - I'm sure this exists already)?
 Does it need to be a minimal GNOME or KDE?

 Rich.

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Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 19 Graphics Test Week starts tomorrow (2013-04-23)!

2013-04-23 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I just got 19 Alpha installed on this ancient beast and so far
everything is working. I went with the network install and the default
GNOME desktop. Firefox does not appear to be locking up the screen any
more, so I'm guessing the XOrg piece of the Nouveau logic was the
culprit. I'm updating a bunch of other software; once that's done I'll
install KDE and see if I can get a crash.

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 7:28 AM, Darryl L. Pierce mcpie...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 09:30:15PM -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
 Count me in for Nouveau - I have a problem I've been trying to nail
 down for months on my ancient GeForce 6150SE nForce 430. Symptoms
 (Fedora 18) none with 3.6 kernel. With 3.7 or later, GNOME desktop
 comes up but as soon as I launch Firefox, I get diagonal lines across
 the screen and I need to power cycle the machine to use it again. With
 the KDE desktop, it does the same thing during the login and I don't
 even get a desktop. I had to switch to the 'nv' X driver to get the
 machine to function with 3.7. And there's no log file anywhere I can
 attach to a bug report. If there are things I can do to capture a log
 of this beast, please let me know!

 I'm in with this as well. I just got a new Lenovo T530 and, when using
 the nVidia card (Quadra NVS 5400) I can no long suspend/resume as the
 video gets scrambled. The system doesn't lock up, though, but I have to
 init 3; init 5 to get my system back.

 An existing BZ for this issue:
 http://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=858503

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Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 19 Graphics Test Week starts tomorrow (2013-04-23)!

2013-04-22 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Count me in for Nouveau - I have a problem I've been trying to nail
down for months on my ancient GeForce 6150SE nForce 430. Symptoms
(Fedora 18) none with 3.6 kernel. With 3.7 or later, GNOME desktop
comes up but as soon as I launch Firefox, I get diagonal lines across
the screen and I need to power cycle the machine to use it again. With
the KDE desktop, it does the same thing during the login and I don't
even get a desktop. I had to switch to the 'nv' X driver to get the
machine to function with 3.7. And there's no log file anywhere I can
attach to a bug report. If there are things I can do to capture a log
of this beast, please let me know!

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 4:46 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote:
 Hi, folks. It's that time again: Graphics Test Week! Tomorrow (2013-04-23)
 is Intel Test Day, Wednesday 2013-04-24 is Nouveau Test Day, and Thursday
 2013-04-25 is Radeon Test Day:

 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2013-04-23_Intel
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2013-04-24_Nouveau
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2013-04-25_Radeon

 This is one of those events where we really need as much data as possible -
 the idea is just to get testing on as wide a range of hardware as we can
 manage. So please, if you have a few spare minutes, come out and test! It's
 very easy. Live images will be available on the Wiki pages soon (martix is
 just finishing those off), and we'll be in #fedora-test-day all week to help
 out with testing and debugging.

 There's a longer announcement post on my blog at
 http://www.happyassassin.net/2013/04/22/fedora-19-graphics-test-week-kicks-off-tomorrow/
 - if you want to spread the word about the event (and please do!), that's
 probably the best thing to link to.
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Re: How do you use Fedora?

2013-04-03 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

My use cases fall into two broad categories - algorithmic music
composition and computational journalism. The former is almost exactly
the Fedora Jam audio spin, augmented by packages from Planet CCRMA.
The latter is a mix of Design Suite and Science and Engineering spins
and other packages, and can be rather neatly summarized by browsing
all the scripts in
https://github.com/znmeb/Computational-Journalism-Publsihers-Workbench
of the form 'yum-*.bash'. ;-)

On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Máirín Duffy du...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
 On 04/02/2013 03:47 PM, Pete Travis wrote:
 I'm considering system specs at this point, but establishing the roles
 deployed might aid in targeting more comprehensive documentation. Beyond
 a basic desktop, what use cases would you like to see us represent?

 FWIW I primarily use Fedora as a creative workstation, for both vector 
 bitmap graphic manipulation as well as non-linear video editing and
 occasional audio editing. I recently had one of my two 4 GB RAM DIMMs
 die, and noticed a big difference in how quickly Gimp was able to
 process images... it really slowed down. On my i7 system with full 8 GB
 of RAM Fedora performs quite well with what I work on though.

 Hope this helps,
 ~m
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Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-15 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote:
 When talking to Ubuntu users, they are telling Unity is as biasing as
 Gnome3.

Aside from the visual arrangement of things, I haven't seen *major*
differences between the GNOME 3 and the Unity user interfaces. It's
not all that hard for me to mentally switch from my preferred GNOME 3
on Fedora 18 to a Quantal Quetzal default Unity desktop on a virtual
machine. Right-click on an icon to remove it from the list, etc. But
it's essentially the exact same total mindshift in going from a GNOME
2 menu at the top like older Fedora and Ubuntu to either a GNOME 3 or
a Unity desktop. It's *huge* but not insurmountable. The Unity
compiz crashes, on the other hand, are a show-stopper. ;-)

 AFAICT, most dissatisfied Ubuntu/Unity users quit Ubuntu for Linux MiNT.

Well, there are actually *two* Linux Mint desktops, Cinnamon and MATE.
They also make a KDE and XFCE version, but I haven't played with those
at all. I must admit I don't know the community structures / resource
allocations among the three projects - Linux Mint, Cinnamon and MATE.

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Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-10 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Ian Malone ibmal...@gmail.com wrote:
 Gnome 3 is designed for a touch interface. The majority of touch
 interfaces are mobile phones. Touch interfaces on computers are a
 minority. Gnome 3 is a poor mobile phone interface, but that doesn't
 mean it's a good laptop or desktop one. Touch screen is not the
 reality for the majority of office workers for example, and I do
 wonder how useful it would be at all to them.

I flew to Atlanta recently and saw a number of people using iPads in
the Bluetooth-keyboard-mounted configuration. It was ghastly to watch
- they'd type a bit, then poke the screen, type some more, poke some
more, ... I really can't imagine doing serious knowledge work without
a mouse or at least a trackpad. And I despise trackpads.

I use GNOME 3 with a mouse and keyboard. I like it. I can't imagine
using it on a phone or a tablet. I *think* what the GNOME 3 designers
(and the Unity bastardization of GNOME 3) were going for was an
interface that *could* be used either on a touch screen or a
conventional KVM setup. I've also tried both Cinnamon and MATE on
both Fedora and Linux Mint. Really, with a few mouse clicks, you can
customize *any* Linux desktop *except* GNOME 3 to be Mac-like (menu in
the upper left) or Windows-like (menu in the lower left) and can add
panels, taskbars, etc.

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Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-03 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Peter Jones pjo...@redhat.com wrote:
 On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 04:25:05AM -0800, Dan Mashal wrote:
 I'm sure QA, releng, docs, etc will go with what the community decides.

 Lets have a poll. A very public one.

 On the main website. Not somebody's blog. And let's let the users decide
 what they want.

 Do we have any significant data that even a plurality of our *users* visit
 our main website on a regular - or any - basis?

 I have my doubts that all that many do, much less that we've got data that
 tells us that such a poll would result in meaningful data.

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Do we have a team dedicated to goals and objectives for the website,
SEO, social media marketing, analytics, key performance indicators,
marketing funnel, all that good stuff?

Fedora used to have Smolt and there are tools to figure out what
packages people use. There's no reason Fedora *can't* be data driven,
but there's a whole lot of business process stuff you'd need to
commit to for it to work without wasting precious energy and hours of
pointless arguments. ;-)

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Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-01-27 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

I love GNOME 3 and detest KDE 4. I've tried MATE and Cinnamon on both
Linux Mint and Fedora and don't really see the point of either of them
as long as GNOME 3 offers fallback mode.

When you come right down to it, nearly all Linux desktops can be
easily customized to provide a Windows-like workflow (menu at lower
left, panel at bottom) or a Mac-like workflow (menu at upper left,
panel at top). All the major Linux desktops can do this. I've even
done this with OpenBox and fbpanel.

Personally I think the Default Linux desktop ought to *be* OpenBox
and fbpanel - it would get the media sizes and RAM use back down to
something sane. ;-) I spend most of my time in either the browser, a
terminal or a GUI application like RStudio, LibreOffice or GIMP.
That's all a Linux desktop needs, really - a browser, a terminal app
and a menu/panel/taskbar/tray/clock/wifi/sound/weather app gizmo.

You *do* need a good terminal app - I'd pick gnome-terminal over
konsole or lxterminal or the XFCE terminal if I had a choice but I
could live with any of them. Xterm is even acceptable if you have a
3-button mouse. ;-) But other than that, an awful lot of the
innovation in Linux desktops seems to me to be wasted effort.

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Jaroslav Reznik jrez...@redhat.com wrote:
 - Original Message -


 I don't think Cinnamon as default desktop. Fedora always was of GNOME
 by default Desktop. However, I have to choose, I would choose KDE as
 default desktop.

 From the times Kevin proposed Plasma as default desktop - and the rest
 of KDE SIG did not support it - it's mainly about resources. And not
 only packaging ones, also development (to make sure desktop works on
 top of our base system layer - and you know, Fedora is often first)
 but documentation (yeah, someone has to write documentation), artwork
 and all other teams I forgot to mention (sorry ;-).

 Btw. Board is trying to find the way how to avoid that strict
 something is default - do you know based on this definition Compiz
 should be part of our default offering [1]?

 And the last thing - GNOME is coming with so called classic UI -
 see GNOME 3.8 feature page (I announced a few minutes ago) [2].

 Fallback mode is going away in 3.8. Instead, there will be a set of
 supported extensions that is grouped together in a 'classic' mode,
 which provides a more GNOME 2-like user experience

 Same tries Cinnamon but as a fork. Make your own conclusion ;-)

 Jaroslav

 [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Default_offering
 [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Gnome3.8




 On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Jaroslav Reznik  jrez...@redhat.com
  wrote:


 = Features/Cinnamon as Default Desktop =
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Cinnamon_as_Default_Desktop

 Feature owner(s): Eric Smith  e...@brouhaha.com 

 This feature proposes that Fedora switch the default desktop
 interface from
 Gnome 3 to Cinnamon. Cinnamon provides a desktop interface that is
 more
 familiar to Windows and Gnome 2 users than the standard Gnome Shell
 interface,
 while being built from Gnome 3 components.

 == Detailed description ==
 The Gnome 3 interface is substantially different that the traditional
 desktop
 interfaces on both Linux and Windows. While it is good that there is
 research
 into new user interface concepts, many users prefer to have a
 traditional
 interface that they are accustomed to. Unfortunately it is difficult
 or
 impossible to assess what fraction of the user base prefers Gnome
 Shell vs. a
 more traditional interface. I'm not trying to start (or continue) a
 flame war
 here, so I won't state any of my own criticisms of Gnome Shell here,
 but I
 will observe that a number of very high profile people in the Linux
 community,
 such as Linus Torvalds and Alan Cox, have publicly announce that due
 to
 problems with Gnome Shell they are switching to a different desktop
 and/or
 Linux distribution.

 I submit the proposition that it is easier for a user doing a new
 Fedora
 install to start with a traditional desktop, and switch to the Gnome
 Shell if
 they prefer that, than to start with Gnome Shell and switch to a
 traditional
 desktop.

 The Cinnamon desktop provides a traditional desktop while being based
 on the
 latest Gnome and GTK components, so it seems like a better candidate
 for a
 default desktop than MATE, which is based on older components.
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Re: Status to make btsfs to the standard filesystem of Fedora

2013-01-17 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Marc Deop Argemí m...@marcdeop.com wrote:
 On Wednesday 16 January 2013 12:18:19 Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=689127
 (performance problem with virtual machines)

 I must add that, in my experience, the performance is *bad* not only in 
 virtual machines but in the whole user experience (I've been using btrfs in 
 my /home partition for a while now and I'm sorry to say that it's really slow 
 compared to ext4).

 In my humble opinion, as of right now, btrfs is not yet ready to be used as 
 default

 Regards,

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Yes, I'd veto btrfs as the default as well. I lost a huge chunk of
data on a btrfs partition a while back, with *no* diagnostics,
recovery tools, help from Google, etc. Screw speed - unless it's rock
solid and *simple* to back up, maintain, diagnose and manage, I won't
use it.


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Re: [Test-Announce] Last Minute Testing for Fedora 18 RC4

2013-01-10 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 5:44 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote:
 On Wed, 2013-01-09 at 20:32 -0800, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
 Downloading the Live media 64 bit now ... will try an install once
 it's pushed to a USB stick. I can also run anything in a VMware 9,
 VirtualBox 4.2.6, F18 Virtual Machine Manager or Windows 8 Pro Client
 Hyper-V guest. Is Windows 8 Pro Client Hyper-V hosting supported?

 I don't know about 'supported', but other people have reported Hyper-V
 works, so give it a shot. I don't think we'd lose any sleep if it
 doesn't work, though. Thanks!

Yes ... the bug I hit is the first time anything strange has happened
in a Hyper-V guest, and that one appears to have been in Fedora 17 as
well, so I'm guessing it's Microsoft's problem.

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Re: [Test-Announce] Last Minute Testing for Fedora 18 RC4

2013-01-09 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Downloading the Live media 64 bit now ... will try an install once
it's pushed to a USB stick. I can also run anything in a VMware 9,
VirtualBox 4.2.6, F18 Virtual Machine Manager or Windows 8 Pro Client
Hyper-V guest. Is Windows 8 Pro Client Hyper-V hosting supported?

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Tim Flink tfl...@redhat.com wrote:
 We find ourselves in a bit of an odd position for Fedora 18 - RC3 is
 go, but we need to finalize some testing in order to decide whether or
 not RC4 will supersede RC3 as the released version of Fedora 18.

 To that end, we have some testing to do. Since the change between RC2
 and RC4 is so small, I've gone through and pulled results from RC2 and
 RC3 where appropriate into the test matrices (mostly the installation
 test matrices [1]). If you end up re-running any test cases, please
 overwrite any results marked 'previous RCX run'. Pulling results
 through isn't an indication that more testing isn't welcome, just that
 we don't think it's strictly _required_ for RC4.

 [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test

 The testing that we're most interested in is the various desktop
 environments with an emphasis on the display managers (gdm, kdm,
 lightdm etc.) because any show-stopping problems are most likely to
 exist there. The second most likely place is inside any of the livecd
 desktop environments (kde, gnome, xfce etc.).

 To that end, if you have the time to download RC4 [2] and run through
 some or all of the desktop test cases [3], please do. The more testing
 we get on RC4, the easier tomorrow's decision to choose RC3 or RC4 will
 be.

 [2] http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/18-RC4/
 [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Desktop_Test

 Happy testing,

 Tim

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Re: Fedora 18 status / F18-RC4 Xen tests

2013-01-09 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Pasi Kärkkäinen pa...@iki.fi wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 08:36:59PM +0200, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
 On Tue, Jan 08, 2013 at 10:39:53PM -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
 
  QA:Testcase_Boot_Methods_Xen_Para_Virt - we need someone who's set up
  for Xen to test this, if Konrad is reading, are you able to check it?
 

 I'll try this soon.


 As I posted here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=810040

 I just finished testing F18-RC4:

 - 32bit F18-RC4 Xen PV domU installs and works OK using virt-install http 
 install.
 - 64bit F18-RC4 Xen PV domU installs and works OK using virt-install http 
 install.
 - 64bit F18-RC4-live Xen HVM guest works OK (live image booted from emulated 
 CD-drive).

 I can confirm F18-RC4 fixes the fprintd bug. I get proper GDM login prompts 
 on the F18-RC4 PV domU pvfb consoles after installation; F18-RC3 gave the sad 
 face with Oh no! Something went horribly wrong text due to the fprintd bug.


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I am testing with Windows 8 Pro Client Hyper-V hosting. I've
downloaded the Live Desktop, created a virtual machine and completed
an install. Everything *looks* good, but there was a kernel oops
shortly after I logged in. ABRT caught it and there's a bug filed at
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=893891

I'm going to work through the complete install process for
https://github.com/znmeb/Computational-Journalism-Publishers-Workbench
to see if anything else shakes out. I don't expect anything; I've been
running this on Fedora 18 since a couple of weeks before beta and this
is the first actual bug in Fedora I've encountered.



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Re: [Test-Announce] Last Minute Testing for Fedora 18 RC4

2013-01-09 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 8:32 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky zn...@znmeb.net wrote:
 Downloading the Live media 64 bit now ... will try an install once
 it's pushed to a USB stick. I can also run anything in a VMware 9,
 VirtualBox 4.2.6, F18 Virtual Machine Manager or Windows 8 Pro Client
 Hyper-V guest. Is Windows 8 Pro Client Hyper-V hosting supported?

I am testing with Windows 8 Pro Client Hyper-V hosting. I've
downloaded the Live Desktop, created a virtual machine and completed
an install. Everything *looks* good, but there was a kernel oops
shortly after I logged in. ABRT caught it and there's a bug filed at
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=893891

I'm going to work through the complete install process for
https://github.com/znmeb/Computational-Journalism-Publishers-Workbench
to see if anything else shakes out. I don't expect anything; I've been
running this on Fedora 18 since a couple of weeks before beta and this
is the first actual bug in Fedora I've encountered.

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Re: Enlightenment for Fedora

2013-01-03 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 11:41 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 10:47 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky zn...@znmeb.net
 wrote:

 This is E17, right? E16 is already there, isn't it?


 Yes.  From a packaging stand point, they don't have anything in common

 Rahul

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Should I search for 'e17' if I want it?


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Re: Enlightenment for Fedora

2013-01-02 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

This is E17, right? E16 is already there, isn't it?

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Edward Mann e@edmann.com wrote:
 On 02.01.2013 08:12, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

 Hi

 Forgot to add

 Elementary  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=891282
 Efreet   https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=890909


 On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi

 As of now, I have submitted Enlightenment and all it dependencies for
 review.   evas-generic-loaders has already been approved and built for
 Rawhide.   Rest of them are listed below.   Thanks to Edward Mann, Emmanuel
 Seyman,  Michael Scherer, Terje and others who have helped out with this
 effort.

 e_dbus  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=891170
 embryo  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=890769
 edje  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=890771
 eiohttps://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=891244
 emotion https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=891268
 eeze https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=891264
 ethumb  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=891272

 enlightenment https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=891295
 terminologyhttps://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=891284

 I will probably throw them all into a temporary repo when I find sometime.
 For now, any reviews are welcome.  Thanks!

 Rahul

 Rahul,

 Thanks for getting this submitted to be included into Fedora. And also for
 getting evas-generic-loaders built. That was on my to-do list just did not
 have the time.



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Re: Ruby 2.0 in F19

2012-12-21 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 4:47 AM, Vít Ondruch vondr...@redhat.com wrote:
 Hi everybody,

 According to Ruby 2.0 release schedule:

   - code freeze: 23 Dec.
   - 2.0.0-rc1 release: 1W Jan. (expected)
   - 2.0.0-rc2 release: 1W Feb. (expected)
   - 2.0.0-p0 release: 24 Feb.

 the official release date is quickly approaching. Therefore, I would like to
 update you about current plans for Fedora

 * I am trying to closely track recent development of Ruby 2.0 and the .spec
 is available in ruby-2.0 branch of dist-git repo [1].
 * I started to put together pieces of feature proposal for Ruby 2.0 in F19
 [2].
 * Every package which depends on Ruby will need to be rebuild. There are
 several reasons:
   - The Ruby 2.0 is ABI incompatible with Ruby 1.9.3 (although it should be
 source level compatible).
   - Due to better integration of JRuby into Fedora [3], we would like to
 take this opportunity to restructure RubyGems folder
 layout. This should allow us to support Rubinius in the future as well.
   - I would like to get rid of ruby(abi) virtual provide, since it does not
 express enough the level of compatibility
 between JRuby and MRI. There is ongoing discussion about it on packaging
 list [4].

 So at the beginning of January, I'd like to ask rel-eng for dedicated build
 target for rebuild of Ruby packages (we will probably use this target for
 JRuby build as well). Please let me know if you want to opt-out and rebuild
 your packages by yourself.


 Vít




 [1] http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/ruby.git/tree/?id=ruby-2.0
 [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Ruby_2.0.0
 [3] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JRuby_1.7.1
 [4]
 http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/packaging/2012-December/008798.html
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Sigh ... now there are *three* incompatible Ruby syntax / semantics
standards to deal with. Why don't we just ship 'rvm' or 'rbenv' and
force everyone to manage their own Ruby environments? ;-)


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Re: [rawhide] (was Re: Where are we going? (Not a rant))

2012-12-13 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 6:21 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky zn...@znmeb.net wrote:
 On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Michael Scherer m...@zarb.org wrote:
 Le dimanche 09 décembre 2012 à 15:18 -0800, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky a
 écrit :

 There's no way I can run my laptop on Rawhide - it's dual-booted with
 Windows 8 Pro and Fedora 18. But I do have an ancient crash-and-burn
 workstation I can run Rawhide on. It's currently dual-booted Fedora 18
 and Linux Mint 14, but I rarely run the Mint part and I could easily
 convert that partition to Rawhide or even blow away Fedora 18 and Mint
 in favor of Rawhide.

 What about doing a triple boot, if you share swap and /home, you can get
 enough space to install a 3rd distro, no ?

 It's not worth the effort - the machine is the first dual-core Athlon
 ever built, the USB ports are either dead or 1.1, the NVidia card is
 mucked up and it only has 4 GB of RAM. I do most of my testing in VMs
 on the 8 GB laptop under virt-manager on Fedora or VirtualBox and
 VMware Workstation on Windows. I've also got the Client Hyper-V
 feature of Windows 8 Pro on the laptop but it needs a wired network to
 function coherently. I'll probably haul the workstation down to
 FreeGeek and just make the laptop my workstation. Rawhide's fine in a
 VM. ;-)
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Update - I have said ancient creaky workstation dual-booted Fedora 18
Beta and Rawhide and the Rawhide partition is now stable. There were
two show-stoppers on the Rawhide piece - some kind of bizarre X.org /
nouveau issue that was locking the machine up when I opened Firefox,
and a missing dependency for LibreOffice. Those have gone away and I
can now use the machine in Rawhide.

I'll probably switch to Firefox beta and put in the Chrome beta as
well, since I spend a lot of time in the browser. Might as well live
on the edge. ;-)

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Re: Where are we going? (Not a rant)

On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Jukka Ruohonen jruoho...@iki.fi wrote:

 Quite easy. Ubuntu LTS succeeds where Fedora (and normal Ubuntu) fails.
 Moreover, extending the support cycle to five years was a brilliant move
 from Ubuntu. Red Hat and its derivatives do not really compete in the same
 field.

 I too used to use Fedora but the so-called innovation is too demanding to
 keep up with.

 - Jukka.

Ubuntu is on the verge of pissing away years of goodwill by

a. Making a bizarre fork of GNOME 3 its default desktop
b. Integrating an app store, a music store and Amazon search into said desktop
c. Releasing a 12.10 that just barely functioned on some configurations.

They've also been slowly backing away from their commitments over the
years. They used to ship free install media; they don't any more.
They've even got a $16 suggested donation form on their download
page. I have no confidence that the 10.04 LTS support will be there
now that there's a 12.04 LTS.

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Re: Where are we going? (Not a rant)

On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 2:03 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mas...@gmail.com wrote:
 MATE IS growing. And MATE developers are starting to contribute to Gnome. :)

 Dan

So is Cinnamon. So is XMonad. So is spit Unity, for that matter.
What *doesn't* seem to be growing is LXDE, and I'm not sure about
XFCE, Enlightenment and WindowMaker. The lightweight window manager /
desktop space seems to me to be floundering except for XMonad.

I finally got around to putting a few hours into getting XMonad
functional on my Fedora 18 boxes. I haven't quite gotten used to some
of its quirks, but at least I'm in a position to compare its memory
usage with the other lightweight alternatives. To be blunt, 4 GB
*used* to be a lot of RAM but GNOME 3, KDE 4 and Cinnamon are
swallowing big chunks of it, and so are Firefox and Chromium / Chrome.
I'm beginning to think Google has the right idea with the ChromeBook -
shove so much functionality into the browser that you only need an OS
to manage the devices. ;-) I want my RAM back!

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Re: [rawhide] (was Re: Where are we going? (Not a rant))

On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Kevin Fenzi ke...@scrye.com wrote:
 On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 17:31:54 +0100
 Michael Scherer m...@zarb.org wrote:

 Just to highlight this... I intend to switch my laptop to rawhide and
 run it and try and gather a like minded group of people to fix things
 as they break faster and work on making rawhide more day to day
 consumable. I'll likely do this switch over the holidays.

 I'd like to continue to use this list for this effort (with the idea
 that increasing signal here would be welcome).

 Some random ideas:

 Create a 'serious rawhide regression tracking bug'. Anyone can nominate
 bugs to get added to that and we have a pool of people watching it who
 can fix or nag maintainers to fix such issues as a higher priority. We
 would need to come up with some critera for acceptance there.

 Help improve autoqa efforts around rawhide and see if we can prevent
 broken packages from even promoting into the collection.

 Note directly rawhide related discussion on this list with a [rawhide]
 so people can easily pick out workarounds and discussions on day to day
 rawhide bugs.

 Try to give maintainers feedback when they push something to rawhide
 that doesn't work at all, and help untag builds identified that do this
 before they go out in the next compose.

 Other ideas welcome.

 kevin


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There's no way I can run my laptop on Rawhide - it's dual-booted with
Windows 8 Pro and Fedora 18. But I do have an ancient crash-and-burn
workstation I can run Rawhide on. It's currently dual-booted Fedora 18
and Linux Mint 14, but I rarely run the Mint part and I could easily
convert that partition to Rawhide or even blow away Fedora 18 and Mint
in favor of Rawhide.


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Re: [rawhide] (was Re: Where are we going? (Not a rant))

On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Michael Scherer m...@zarb.org wrote:
 Le dimanche 09 décembre 2012 à 15:18 -0800, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky a
 écrit :

 There's no way I can run my laptop on Rawhide - it's dual-booted with
 Windows 8 Pro and Fedora 18. But I do have an ancient crash-and-burn
 workstation I can run Rawhide on. It's currently dual-booted Fedora 18
 and Linux Mint 14, but I rarely run the Mint part and I could easily
 convert that partition to Rawhide or even blow away Fedora 18 and Mint
 in favor of Rawhide.

 What about doing a triple boot, if you share swap and /home, you can get
 enough space to install a 3rd distro, no ?

It's not worth the effort - the machine is the first dual-core Athlon
ever built, the USB ports are either dead or 1.1, the NVidia card is
mucked up and it only has 4 GB of RAM. I do most of my testing in VMs
on the 8 GB laptop under virt-manager on Fedora or VirtualBox and
VMware Workstation on Windows. I've also got the Client Hyper-V
feature of Windows 8 Pro on the laptop but it needs a wired network to
function coherently. I'll probably haul the workstation down to
FreeGeek and just make the laptop my workstation. Rawhide's fine in a
VM. ;-)
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Re: Where are we going? (Not a rant)

2012-12-07 Thread M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Arun SAG saga...@gmail.com wrote:


 On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 5:32 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com
 wrote:


 If we want to solve this we need to release an Fedora LTS release for our
  and the potential other user base that don't have to/want to update every 
  6
  or 12 months.



 Completely agree on this one. In my day job we started using Fedora as one
 of our desktop os. Then support  issues and upgrade cycle started giving
 nightmares to corp IT. They are looking at other avenues now. I really wish
 there is a LTS release for this awesome distro -  Fedora.

Why does there need to be a long-term support for Fedora? Why not just
use Red Hat Enterprise Linux?

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Re: [@core] working definition for the minimal package set

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Ian Pilcher arequip...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 11/13/2012 06:55 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
 It might be worth re-evaluating whether that's realistic any more,
 though, and whether we're _really_ committed to finally replacing
 network with NM in some kind of reasonable timeframe.

 To this point, NetworkManager has failed to gain basic bridge support.
 In the meantime, Open vSwitch, which has a ton more configuration
 options has been recently added to the distro.

 I'd argue that NM actually continues to fall farther behind.

Yeah, I love NetworkManager until it bites me - I've lost count of how
many times I've been in a coffee shop and had to use 'sudo nmcli con
del id' to get back online. ;-)


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Re: [@core] working definition for the minimal package set

Time synchronization inside virtual machines is

a. Hypervisor-dependent. See the docs for VirtualBox, VMware, Xen and
kvm and read the fine print. I don't even know if there *is*
documentation for EC2.
b. Poorly documented and difficult to test. If you don't *need*
anything better than NTP / one second synchronization, don't waste
your time.
c. A mine field if you *do* need something better.

Stay safe out there. ;-)

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 7:22 AM,  john.flor...@dart.biz wrote:
 From: Stephen John Smoogen smo...@gmail.com
  On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 08:00:23PM -0500, Ben Cotton wrote:
  On EC2 (as in many virt environments) the hardware clock source is
  actually
  synced and running an ntpd service on the client is redundant.
 

 bikeshed=blue
 They say it is  but it is not always.  I have had multiple cases
 in KVM and some in Xen where supposedly the clock is kept up but what
 you end up is actually watching time go backwards if you hit heavy
 load in IO or CPU or Mem.  Of course if you run into hardware like
 that.. you can install it after your DB has gone poopsies.
 /bikeshed

 I've seen that happen as well.  I found this by hitting the pause button on
 the guest IIRC.  I just always use NTP to avoid the worry, but I agree NTP
 (whether ntpd or chronyd) belongs in @standard not @core.

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Re: [@core] working definition for the minimal package set

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Lennart Poettering
mzerq...@0pointer.de wrote:
 On Thu, 15.11.12 00:56, Lennart Poettering (mzerq...@0pointer.de) wrote:

 I think a good way to approach this is by looking for the interesting
 usecases for a minimal installation:

 A) Containers
 B) VMs
 C) Bare-Metal Servers
 D) Paranoid people (not relevant)
 E) Embedded (out of focus for Fedora)
 ... anything else?

 I list A and B as separate items, since they have different needs. For
 A you don't want SSH or bootloader (the bootloader is not necessary, as
 the container manager will directly invoke init, and you can login via
 local console). For B you you need a bootloader and probably SSH.

 I think it would make sense to focus on the intersection of installation
 set for these usecases. And hence:

 No SSH. No Boot loader. And definitely not Sendmail.

 Also, no kernel and no kmod for A, as that is provided by the container
 host.

 Lennart

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It's been a while since I did anything with containers (LXC) but as I
recall they're pretty much unmanageable without being able to ssh into
them. But yes, I do think the bare-assed minimum viable Fedora is an
LXC guest that one can get a console of some kind on and install
packages into via yum. I'd even be willing to give up vim for nano. I
don't need bash-completion or locate or man pages. ;-)

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Re: [@core] working definition for the minimal package set

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote:
 On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 16:27 -0800, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
 On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Ian Pilcher arequip...@gmail.com wrote:
  On 11/13/2012 06:55 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
  It might be worth re-evaluating whether that's realistic any more,
  though, and whether we're _really_ committed to finally replacing
  network with NM in some kind of reasonable timeframe.
 
  To this point, NetworkManager has failed to gain basic bridge support.
  In the meantime, Open vSwitch, which has a ton more configuration
  options has been recently added to the distro.
 
  I'd argue that NM actually continues to fall farther behind.

 Yeah, I love NetworkManager until it bites me - I've lost count of how
 many times I've been in a coffee shop and had to use 'sudo nmcli con
 del id' to get back online. ;-)

 SCOPE CREEP ALARM! AWOOGA! AWOOGA!

 Unless you actually think the network scripts are a better way of
 managing casual wireless connections, I think this is a bit out of
 scope, as we can already chalk up 'casual wireless connections' in the
 'win' column for NetworkManager - it's already better than
 network.service at that. it may not be *perfect*, but it's *better*.

 The context here is not 'let's all get our NM pet peeves out of our
 systems', but 'what does network.service still do better than NM, and
 how long is it going to take to fix that?'
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In the current context, a minimal Fedora, I'd argue that
NetworkManager is overkill too. An openSUSE / SUSE Studio JEOS or
server appliance defaults to some kind of DHCP client built on top of
whatever the base networking tools are in openSUSE. You have to
specifically *ask* for NetworkManager if you want it. I don't even
think the bridge tools are included at that minimalist level. You get
a firewall, yes, and DHCP too but ssh is optional - you probably have
to go in with 'vi' from the console and edit configuration files to
make networking happen beyond that.

While we're on the subject of minimalism, does yum default to
installing suggested packages on top of required ones?



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Re: LuaJIT - an alternative for current Python C bindings (was: Re: raising warning flag on firewalld-default feature)