Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 08:24:33AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 10/08/2013 08:02 AM, David Tardon wrote: On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 03:29:57AM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: Shall we talk about how Red Hat employees have been granted all kinds of privileges within our community without as even bother to introduce themselves to the community even to the extent that fesco is now judging people if they are socially ready for proven packagers while Red Hat employees walk around and are granted those privileges freely? That is an utter fabrication. Red Hat packagers have to go exactly through the same process to became packagers as anyone else (well, it may be easier for them to find a sponsor, but sponsored they must be); they have to go through the same process to became proven packagers etc. In fedora's history, there have been many examples which demonstrate the contrary. There have been many cases, where RH teams where mutually approving their team mates as packagers, where RH supervisors where approving their subordinates as proven packagers, and where RH office/team mates rushed through package reviews ping pong style. Which is not what he is saying. It is sad that such things happen at all, but he claims they happen routinely, as a matter of fact. That is an accusation I strongly object to. Btw, proven packagers are approved by FESCo. I fail to see how any Red Hat supervisor could go around that. Btw, these things are hardly limited to Red Hat. E.g., who is to stop two packagers trying to get a set of packages into Fedora from perfunctorily reviewing each others packages? I respectfully suggest that you be silent if you do not know the facts. Your credibility is diminishing rapidly with every untrue statement you put forth. I respectfully disagree with you. Suit yourself. D. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 03:29:57AM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: Shall we talk about how Red Hat employees have been granted all kinds of privileges within our community without as even bother to introduce themselves to the community even to the extent that fesco is now judging people if they are socially ready for proven packagers while Red Hat employees walk around and are granted those privileges freely? That is an utter fabrication. Red Hat packagers have to go exactly through the same process to became packagers as anyone else (well, it may be easier for them to find a sponsor, but sponsored they must be); they have to go through the same process to became proven packagers etc. I respectfully suggest that you be silent if you do not know the facts. Your credibility is diminishing rapidly with every untrue statement you put forth. D. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On 10/05/2013 05:34 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 10/04/2013 06:23 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 03:14:27PM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: Why should the community participate in this when it turns out that the the whole WG and the next proposal is nothing but an utter and total sheninagan on RH behalf as came apparent on last FESCO meeting Jóhann, you're taking one out-of-context quote from one FESCo member, reading too much into it, and building an alarmist story around it. This is absolutely a real community process. Red Hat members of the working groups can make their merit-based cases the same way as anyone else, and if they can't show that merit to the community, they don't get a special trump card. They will have to find another way to advance their cause. You may think that this is just talk, but I promise you it isn't. Fedora provides value to Red Hat in many different ways, but genuine community voice is among the most crucial. If that voice tells us one thing and we can't listen, that's our failure, our loss -- and not what's going to happen here. It's completely fair for Red Hat -- and Red Hatters -- to talk about what directions in Fedora we think would be most beneficial to the company, and about the resources -- time, money, people, and so on -- that we could bring to bear in certain directions (and probably won't in other directions). If we clearly talk about that, and about the technical merit of directions proposed, and we can't be convincing, and can't adapt what we're proposing to become convincing... well, we have some soul-searching to do. And those words coming from a man who just back stabbed a man he went into feature process with and left him hanging ( Lennart ). Am I and the rest of the community supposed trust what you suddenly say and claim now? Hi Johann, you use the word *the community* in your emails a lot, but I don't see many others supporting your opinion, so can you please share with us who is *the community* you're talking about? For one, it's definitely not me and I think of my self as part of the community..(yes, I'm working for the community even outside my RH paid job). So far it looks like you're only hiding behind the term *community* because there's only you (or just a few of you), but it's better to say community than *all four of us*. Thanks, Jirka JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On 10/08/2013 06:02 AM, David Tardon wrote: I respectfully suggest that you be silent if you do not know the facts. Your credibility is diminishing rapidly with every untrue statement you put forth. You did comprehend I was not only talking about PP right? JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On 2013-10-07 13:56, Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller wrote: Hi Jóhann, I do agree with you that the interaction between Red Hat and Fedora needs to be clearer, and that currently it is a bit vaguely defined and thus it gives ground to conspiracy theories and feelings of disenfranchisement. That said I think you too need to be open to that Red Hat, like yourself and any other participant in the Fedora project does so because there is a sense of self interest. That self interest may wary from enjoyment of community, to skills building, or to Fedora providing a solution to a technical problem you have. Red Hat is not investing heavily in Fedora in terms of infrastructure and development resources just because we as a company needs a place to spend money, if that was the case I am sure you would agree we should instead donate the money to the Red Cross or similar. The reason Red Hat invests in Fedora is because Fedora plays an important part in both product development and in innovating new technologies. So if Fedora ends up not being interesting or useful to you personally anymore I assume you would leave Fedora behind, the same is true for Red Hat. So I think part of the reason we end up having these kinds of argument it is because for a long time maybe both inside and outside Red Hat there has been a pretense that Red Hat as a company has no direct interest in Fedora and that Red Hats resources and contributions to the project is a given, no matter what. Red Hats involvement in Fedora has somehow become the unspoken of elephant in the room. Maybe what we need to do is instead start speaking openly of why Red Hat wants to be involved with Fedora. So you mention that some Red Hat employees have bypassed processes, and I am sure this has happened, but that is a direct consequence of that Fedora not being a 'random' distro for Red Hat, but an integral part of our product development. I mean there is no secret that RHEL is built from Fedora. The tools used to build Fedora overlap and intermingle with the tools used for building RHEL. So I am not saying that makes everything ok, but what I want to say is that we need to accept that these things doesn't happen out of malice, and work together to find solutions for how they can be handled better going forward in a way that is mutually beneficial and acceptable to all. So there are two solutions to the challenge faced with Red Hat and Fedora. The first option is a decision that Red Hat withdraws from Fedora and tries to build replacements for Fedora current role in our product development. Or that the Fedora community and Red Hat agrees that the current involvement from Red Hat is beneficial to Fedora overall, despite that it comes with some strings attached and that the rules of Fedora might at times collide with the practical concerns of Red Hat, who needs to build products for our customers. And I don't think (almost) anyone inside or outside Red Hat wants solution 1. So maybe everyone involved needs to take a deep breath and accept that there is no 'clean' solution here. There is no rule that can be made that somehow resolves all the complexity of Fedora both being a community project and at the same time a core part of the Red Hat product development workflow and overall market strategy. Sometimes this weird duality will create friction, but we need to discuss and talk calmly about these issues and try to find solutions, instead of assuming bad things of each other. And often if a change ends up being good or bad is a lot up to the participants. If you go into something only looking for reasons why it is bad, then there is a good chance you will end up making it bad, at least for yourself. And at the same time if you approach something as an opportunity to do something positive, your chances of doing that is greatly increased. And often the good solutions is about thinking outside the box a bit. And as a sidenote, I think there is a tendency to brand any discussion about Fedora inside Red Hat as some kind of backroom dealings and skulduggery, but I think this is silly and unfair. Red Hat like any other participant sometimes need to figure out what is the Red Hat position on issues and challenges, a position which might not align with every Fedora community member or every individual Red Hat employee, and Red Hat being a company and not an individual can only reach such positions by discussing them internally first. And to me this is actually beneficial to the Fedora community as it can provide the community with a clear sense of what the official company position is on a given subject, as opposed to trying to somehow extract it from the buzz of various individual Red Hat employees stating a mix of company positions and their private opinions. The real challenge here is to avoid the need to build company positions lead into a default of doing discussions internally that can be just as fine be done in the public with full community involvement.
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On 10/08/2013 07:00 AM, Jiri Moskovcak wrote: Hi Johann, you use the word *the community* in your emails a lot, but I don't see many others supporting your opinion, Hi Jiri There are other ways to than being visible to show support and sometimes it's not the best strategy to do so. When dealing with an overwhelming entity like fortune 500 company you have to be organized mobilized and smart when engaging it to ensuring for example if it manage to silences one voice there is another voice to replace it in the community it but I dont see many outside Red Hat employee contributing to this thread either many of those just want to find a mutual path to solve this ( which ofcourse can be found ). People are supporting me plenty privately ( if that's what you are wondering ) even asking why I left the big elephant out of this discussion as in one of more real conflict between Fedora's growth and Red Hat's goals being money ( as in the project funds ) with several suggestion how to collect money to fund various for and in the project ( which this thread is not about ). But before community members start popping up various crowd funding projects to help the aspect of the project that they think are being left out by Red Hat ( by funding or resources ) or find more sponsor or other ways to sponsor it ( manpower hosting what not ), we need to be able to ensure that the various work flows,policy's and other bits can handle a single sponsor and does so well. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
That said, please don't top-post: [1] Also, please trim irrelevant material [1] [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines#If_You_Are_Replying_to_a_Message -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On Oct 8, 2013, at 3:24 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com wrote: People are supporting me plenty privately This answer does not hold up to scrutiny as a response to Jirka's inquiry. Such an arrangement requires publicly visible proxies to be credible. An alternative arrangement is for your mission statement to be presented to the community for non-binding vote. But on the face of it, the above assertion is a non-sequitur consider your implied lack of transparency in the Fedora-Red Hat relationship. It's simply an inappropriate suggestion that more lack of transparency, that's merely in opposition with another, is the way forward. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 08:27:18AM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 10/08/2013 06:02 AM, David Tardon wrote: I respectfully suggest that you be silent if you do not know the facts. Your credibility is diminishing rapidly with every untrue statement you put forth. You did comprehend I was not only talking about PP right? You did read the paragraph you cut out from your reply, right? So what are these special privileges that all red hat packagers do have, as you claim? I am very interested to hear, because I sure as hell do not have them (or never heard about them from anyone, anyway) and want to remedy the omission .-) D. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
- Original Message - On 10/05/2013 07:08 AM, Mathieu Bridon wrote: So every time you say that, I can't help thinking you're just jealous they took someone « outside the community » instead of you. It might not be what you're thinking, but it's really how you sound. Maybe those « individuals » are just more competent? Or you know, maybe Red Hat prefers hiring people who don't spend their time vomiting their hatred on mailing-lists? You are making the assumption that Red Hat has not already offered me a job as well as the fact that I would associate my name to a company when behaves like this. I'd say most of Fedora (and even most of Red Hatters) would quit immediately in case the company starts behave like you think it behaves. And I'm saying it as a guy who signed mortgage week ago. And that means I'd still like to see you join us and work on Fedora full time ;-). R. Good for you... JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On 10/07/2013 08:20 AM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: - Original Message - On 10/05/2013 07:08 AM, Mathieu Bridon wrote: I'd say most of Fedora (and even most of Red Hatters) would quit immediately in case the company starts behave like you think it behaves. And I'm saying it as a guy who signed mortgage week ago. Or people turn a blind eye to the facts on what's actually taking place. - It places distrust in the community ( as came completely clear on last FESCO meeting ) - It puts the community to disadvantage compare to it employees which now as stepped up to the level that community members are subjected to character and social scrutiny by FESCO ( look at Dan's pp request 3 meetings ago ) while Red Hat employees entirely bypass that and other ( privileged ) processes that community members have to go through. - It elevates it's own product(s) above community's work either under the so called defaults ( or as we are heading now 3 products ) or various strategically placed recommendations here and there putting competing community maintained products at disadvantage. - It creates ( high ranking ) positions ( suddenly ) in communities, then recruits individuals outside the community and places them in those positions and in those communities ( people can just look through the internet archive's for advertised Fedora positions both for the title they give these individuals as well as the statement you will be working as as opposed to working with ). etc... So as you can see it already is behaving as I think it behaves and quite frankly this is an disgusting and unjust corporate behavior towards the community based on mistrust and misuse and sends mixed signals inside and outside of our community and labels our work as some kind of RH experiment and test bed. All of the issues I have mentioned here before can be dealt with internally by Red Hat. - It has to take a leap of faith and just let go and place trust in the community since it's highly unlikely that it will venture to far away from Red Hat interest at least I would be very surprised if it did. - If it thinks that our processes are to complex for an new employee to walk through to gain the necessary access to be able to perform it's work, it needs to work with us improving those processes and workflows so that *everybody* Red Hat employees and community members alike will gain from it as opposed to be bypassing it altogether for it's employee while the community drowns in bureaucracy. - It will need to understand that forcing everything under a single product ( default ) or three products as well as single audience ( or three different audience ) hinders growth in sub communities ( due to them not being equally presented ) as well as fair competition thus innovation between competing products applications or applications stack ( be it through better written code/compatibility/features/maintenance you know those little things that competing products implement or achieve over each other ) . - It needs to understand that there is no need to invent ( high ranking ) position and try to elevate new employees to those positions within sub community since it will come naturally on it's own by the share time that employees has to work and dedicate to the sub community surrounding the component or group of components. ( An community member only has around 2 - 4 hours max each day to dedicate to the project unless he's unemployed or is being paid to work in it ). So fourth and so on, Red Hat has pretty smart managers and team leaders within their ranks which I'm pretty sure will straight these issues out and deal with the community on equal ground and in harmony which benefits us all. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
2013/10/7 Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com Or people turn a blind eye to the facts on what's actually taking place. - It places distrust in the community ( as came completely clear on last FESCO meeting ) Fesco members are all elected by contributors (no nominated members by Red Hat), if you think they doesn't do their job properly, you're more than capable to step up at the next election. - It puts the community to disadvantage compare to it employees which now as stepped up to the level that community members are subjected to character and social scrutiny by FESCO ( look at Dan's pp request 3 meetings ago ) while Red Hat employees entirely bypass that and other ( privileged ) processes that community members have to go through. I don't remember being employed by Red Hat, neither are the other members who were worried that FESCo rushed that pp request. You're completely rewriting history here, because, FESCo approved this pp request without respecting its own guidelines, many voices from the community had intervened to restore legality here. This incident was handled by community sponsors in respect to the process defined by the community, not by Red Hat employees. - It elevates it's own product(s) above community's work either under the so called defaults ( or as we are heading now 3 products ) or various strategically placed recommendations here and there putting competing community maintained products at disadvantage. One of Fedora's biggest success was to build a strong community that spear-headed the GNU/Linux efforts for years. But we're reaching our own limits and we have to set clear goals to keep this community together. By defining three products (and people are free to propose other products, it's a truly community-driven process), we are setting these goals that will make Fedora works in the future. - It creates ( high ranking ) positions ( suddenly ) in communities, then recruits individuals outside the community and places them in those positions and in those communities ( people can just look through the internet archive's for advertised Fedora positions both for the title they give these individuals as well as the statement you will be working as as opposed to working with ). etc... I consider the whole Red Hat as a particular contributor, i don't give a rat's ass about anyone position (community manager, cloud architect or whatever). What i consider is the work done by individuals. Off course, Red Hat wants to drive Fedora where are their own interests, but they have as much power as their contributions are worth to the community. I'm not supporting Matthew's proposal because he works at Red Hat but as fellow contributor who did a great job. So as you can see it already is behaving as I think it behaves and quite frankly this is an disgusting and unjust corporate behavior towards the community based on mistrust and misuse and sends mixed signals inside and outside of our community and labels our work as some kind of RH experiment and test bed. As you, i still resent what Brian Steven said about Fedora being only RHEL sandbox, but we have to keep our heads cool. You have valid arguments (mixed signals sent to the community for instance), please, don't mix everything with unfair arguments. All of the issues I have mentioned here before can be dealt with internally by Red Hat. - It has to take a leap of faith and just let go and place trust in the community since it's highly unlikely that it will venture to far away from Red Hat interest at least I would be very surprised if it did. I'm pretty sure that most RH employees involved in Fedora are thinking the same way. - If it thinks that our processes are to complex for an new employee to walk through to gain the necessary access to be able to perform it's work, it needs to work with us improving those processes and workflows so that *everybody* Red Hat employees and community members alike will gain from it as opposed to be bypassing it altogether for it's employee while the community drowns in bureaucracy. +1 - It will need to understand that forcing everything under a single product ( default ) or three products as well as single audience ( or three different audience ) hinders growth in sub communities ( due to them not being equally presented ) as well as fair competition thus innovation between competing products applications or applications stack ( be it through better written code/compatibility/features/**maintenance you know those little things that competing products implement or achieve over each other ) . You're being unfair, this decision has been discussed in the open and has been approved by a fully community process, you were THERE at Flock when we discussed this face to face. - It needs to understand that there is no need to invent ( high ranking ) position and try to elevate new employees to those positions within sub community
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
Hi Jóhann, I do agree with you that the interaction between Red Hat and Fedora needs to be clearer, and that currently it is a bit vaguely defined and thus it gives ground to conspiracy theories and feelings of disenfranchisement. That said I think you too need to be open to that Red Hat, like yourself and any other participant in the Fedora project does so because there is a sense of self interest. That self interest may wary from enjoyment of community, to skills building, or to Fedora providing a solution to a technical problem you have. Red Hat is not investing heavily in Fedora in terms of infrastructure and development resources just because we as a company needs a place to spend money, if that was the case I am sure you would agree we should instead donate the money to the Red Cross or similar. The reason Red Hat invests in Fedora is because Fedora plays an important part in both product development and in innovating new technologies. So if Fedora ends up not being interesting or useful to you personally anymore I assume you would leave Fedora behind, the same is true for Red Hat. So I think part of the reason we end up having these kinds of argument it is because for a long time maybe both inside and outside Red Hat there has been a pretense that Red Hat as a company has no direct interest in Fedora and that Red Hats resources and contributions to the project is a given, no matter what. Red Hats involvement in Fedora has somehow become the unspoken of elephant in the room. Maybe what we need to do is instead start speaking openly of why Red Hat wants to be involved with Fedora. So you mention that some Red Hat employees have bypassed processes, and I am sure this has happened, but that is a direct consequence of that Fedora not being a 'random' distro for Red Hat, but an integral part of our product development. I mean there is no secret that RHEL is built from Fedora. The tools used to build Fedora overlap and intermingle with the tools used for building RHEL. So I am not saying that makes everything ok, but what I want to say is that we need to accept that these things doesn't happen out of malice, and work together to find solutions for how they can be handled better going forward in a way that is mutually beneficial and acceptable to all. So there are two solutions to the challenge faced with Red Hat and Fedora. The first option is a decision that Red Hat withdraws from Fedora and tries to build replacements for Fedora current role in our product development. Or that the Fedora community and Red Hat agrees that the current involvement from Red Hat is beneficial to Fedora overall, despite that it comes with some strings attached and that the rules of Fedora might at times collide with the practical concerns of Red Hat, who needs to build products for our customers. And I don't think (almost) anyone inside or outside Red Hat wants solution 1. So maybe everyone involved needs to take a deep breath and accept that there is no 'clean' solution here. There is no rule that can be made that somehow resolves all the complexity of Fedora both being a community project and at the same time a core part of the Red Hat product development workflow and overall market strategy. Sometimes this weird duality will create friction, but we need to discuss and talk calmly about these issues and try to find solutions, instead of assuming bad things of each other. And often if a change ends up being good or bad is a lot up to the participants. If you go into something only looking for reasons why it is bad, then there is a good chance you will end up making it bad, at least for yourself. And at the same time if you approach something as an opportunity to do something positive, your chances of doing that is greatly increased. And often the good solutions is about thinking outside the box a bit. And as a sidenote, I think there is a tendency to brand any discussion about Fedora inside Red Hat as some kind of backroom dealings and skulduggery, but I think this is silly and unfair. Red Hat like any other participant sometimes need to figure out what is the Red Hat position on issues and challenges, a position which might not align with every Fedora community member or every individual Red Hat employee, and Red Hat being a company and not an individual can only reach such positions by discussing them internally first. And to me this is actually beneficial to the Fedora community as it can provide the community with a clear sense of what the official company position is on a given subject, as opposed to trying to somehow extract it from the buzz of various individual Red Hat employees stating a mix of company positions and their private opinions. The real challenge here is to avoid the need to build company positions lead into a default of doing discussions internally that can be just as fine be done in the public with full community involvement. This is a challenge that any project with a big corporate sponsor
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
Quoting Jóhann B. Guðmundsson (2013-10-05 05:29:57) Shall we talk about how Red Hat employees have been granted all kinds of privileges within our community without as even bother to introduce themselves to the community even to the extent that fesco is now judging people if they are socially ready for proven packagers while Red Hat employees walk around and are granted those privileges freely? Your vitriol is not appreciated I want you to point out the person who got provenpackager privileges without going through normal provenpackager process. I have personally seen (and voted against) a few colleagues who wanted to get provenpackager (or sponsor) permissions but didn't have enough experience IMO. As far as I know they are not provenpackagers/sponsors. If this really was a problem I know a lot of Red Hat employees would be as unhappy about this inequality as you seem to be. But it's not... You are actually insulting and attacking integrity of every sponsor (i.e. people who actually vote for/against new provenpackagers). I like Simon Phipps's quote Corporations are not people. If you have a problem with specific action taken by specific Red Hat employees: point it out! Do not be generic or people will most likely write you off as another troll. -- Stanislav Ochotnicky sochotni...@redhat.com Software Engineer - Developer Experience PGP: 7B087241 Red Hat Inc. http://cz.redhat.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
Am 06.10.2013 22:18, schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson: On 10/05/2013 07:08 AM, Mathieu Bridon wrote: So every time you say that, I can't help thinking you're just jealous they took someone « outside the community » instead of you. It might not be what you're thinking, but it's really how you sound. Maybe those « individuals » are just more competent? Or you know, maybe Red Hat prefers hiring people who don't spend their time vomiting their hatred on mailing-lists? You are making the assumption that Red Hat has not already offered me a job as well as the fact that I would associate my name to a company when behaves like this. Good for you... *what* exactly is your problem with Redhat? i am always the bad-ass because my hard opinions about wrong technical decisions, well so it may be, but what you are doing all the time is fight against a company because it is a company without realize what Redhat is doing for the open source ecosystem over many years do you not realize that without Redhat Fedora would not exist at all and *nobody* but you is interested in Fedora without Redhat? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On 10/05/2013 07:08 AM, Mathieu Bridon wrote: So every time you say that, I can't help thinking you're just jealous they took someone « outside the community » instead of you. It might not be what you're thinking, but it's really how you sound. Maybe those « individuals » are just more competent? Or you know, maybe Red Hat prefers hiring people who don't spend their time vomiting their hatred on mailing-lists? You are making the assumption that Red Hat has not already offered me a job as well as the fact that I would associate my name to a company when behaves like this. Good for you... JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
Le 06/10/2013 22:18, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson a écrit : You are making the assumption that Red Hat has not already offered me a job as well as the fact that I would associate my name to a company when behaves like this. Good for you... JBG I don't think that's what Mathieu meant here and I know he *immediately* regretted that part. Everyone here recognize your skills and your hard work, you're a worthy contributor and i don't give a shit of what Red Hat thinks about you or anyone else here. I understand your concerns about Fedora, most us want to keep Fedora a truly community-driven project. But Matthew did an outstanding work in pointing out Fedora weaknesses and proposed a good roadmap to make Fedora a great platform to build products upon. Who cares if he did it on his paid time ? We -the community- discussed his proposal at Flock, then all the process has been lead in the open and there are logs and mails that prove it. The only sad thing here is to see contributors whom i highly esteem disputing like brats instead of discussing it, keeping a cool head. H. PS: everyone should listen to Jared, Fedora Community voice of reason :o) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On Saturday, October 05, 2013 11:29 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: Did you look at the history who signed up to the WG page before it even got announced to the community? Who? People who were at Flock and/or had read the meeting logs and knew about the WG about to be announced. I knew about that page before it was announced. And I don't work for Red Hat, I just happen to read the FESCo meeting logs every week. Want to take this further shall we start pointing out individuals that Red Hat invented job positions for within our communities then planted individuals outside the community in those positions to satisify it's compulseve corporate need for control? So every time you say that, I can't help thinking you're just jealous they took someone « outside the community » instead of you. It might not be what you're thinking, but it's really how you sound. Maybe those « individuals » are just more competent? Or you know, maybe Red Hat prefers hiring people who don't spend their time vomiting their hatred on mailing-lists? -- Mathieu -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Mathieu Bridon boche...@fedoraproject.orgwrote: On Saturday, October 05, 2013 11:29 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: Did you look at the history who signed up to the WG page before it even got announced to the community? Who? People who were at Flock and/or had read the meeting logs and knew about the WG about to be announced. I knew about that page before it was announced. And I don't work for Red Hat, I just happen to read the FESCo meeting logs every week. Want to take this further shall we start pointing out individuals that Red Hat invented job positions for within our communities then planted individuals outside the community in those positions to satisify it's compulseve corporate need for control? So every time you say that, I can't help thinking you're just jealous they took someone « outside the community » instead of you. It might not be what you're thinking, but it's really how you sound. Maybe those « individuals » are just more competent? Or you know, maybe Red Hat prefers hiring people who don't spend their time vomiting their hatred on mailing-lists? It sounds like this is an issue from way back from the tone of this email. Come on guys we cant keep going back and forth on this. find it sad that we are. My opinion is this. we get funding from these guys. So to some extent I think they ca put in engineers to assist us when they see a feature that they want in. I am not commenting on the methods they use. This is because I actually do not care. It is open source. Unhappy with something, just fork it and move on. That is the beauty of it. No one will come after you cause that is the beauty of the whole thing. I think we also need to look at deliverables. I usually am not the person looking at the small details. For me it is more of deliver and we are all good. I mean if this needs to be revised I am sure we can have a look at it and ask them to change it for the community. this is just my $0.02 thanks. -- Mathieu -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/develhttps://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-**of-conducthttp://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.orgwrote: On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 03:14:27PM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: Why should the community participate in this when it turns out that the the whole WG and the next proposal is nothing but an utter and total sheninagan on RH behalf as came apparent on last FESCO meeting Jóhann, you're taking one out-of-context quote from one FESCo member, reading too much into it, and building an alarmist story around it. This is absolutely a real community process. Red Hat members of the working groups can make their merit-based cases the same way as anyone else, and if they can't show that merit to the community, they don't get a special trump card. They will have to find another way to advance their cause. Let me add a few words here as well. I'm of the same opinion as Matthew here -- I think Jóhann is reading too much into a unfortunately worded quote. (And, based on Jóhann's recent behavior, he seems to have an axe to grind with Red Hat.) I'd like to state for the record that while I was the Fedora Project Leader, Red Hat never once told me what to do as the FPL or exercised any undue influence on what Fedora should or shouldn't be doing. Of course, they watched with interest to see what was happening in Fedora, and various Red Hat engineers added new features to Fedora along the way, and quite a few Red Hat employees took part on the Fedora Board and FESCo and FAmSCo and various other SIGs -- but I can state unequivocally that I never tried to force Fedora's hand, or did I see any sort of underhanded behavior or grand conspiracy to which Jóhann refers. I'm sorry Jóhann, but I can't sit here and watch you make those kinds of accusations without sharing what I saw and experienced while I was an insider at Red Hat. It's not helpful to the Fedora community to continue with these baseless accusations. Let me even be a little more blunt here: I don't think Fedora could thrive without the support and help that Red Hat (and, by extension, it's employees) provide. It could probably survive, but it would only be limping along. In that same manner, I don't think Red Hat could thrive the way it has without the great work that Fedora does. For better or worse, the Fedora community and Red Hat need each other. I don't see any easy way for them to go their separate ways without damaging both sides. (For the record, I no longer work for Red Hat, have nothing tangible to gain by Red Hat's success, but still hold them in high esteem based on my time working there.) -- Jared Smith -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On 10/04/2013 09:50 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote: On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org mailto:mat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: I'm sorry Jóhann, but I can't sit here and watch you make those kinds of accusations without sharing what I saw and experienced while I was an insider at Red Hat. It's not helpful to the Fedora community to continue with these baseless accusations. Jared are accusing me of baseless accusation after what is clear cut and took place at that meeting? Do you really want to head down this road? Did you not read the meeting long as well as Stephens response? Did you look at the history who signed up to the WG page before it even got announced to the community? Want to take this further shall we start pointing out individuals that Red Hat invented job positions for within our communities then planted individuals outside the community in those positions to satisify it's compulseve corporate need for control? Shall we talk about how Red Hat employees have been granted all kinds of privileges within our community without as even bother to introduce themselves to the community even to the extent that fesco is now judging people if they are socially ready for proven packagers while Red Hat employees walk around and are granted those privileges freely? Back of your words Jared dishonour me to my face and tell I'm wrong or if I'm lying!!! JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Red Hat and Fedora Working Groups
On 10/04/2013 06:23 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 03:14:27PM +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: Why should the community participate in this when it turns out that the the whole WG and the next proposal is nothing but an utter and total sheninagan on RH behalf as came apparent on last FESCO meeting Jóhann, you're taking one out-of-context quote from one FESCo member, reading too much into it, and building an alarmist story around it. This is absolutely a real community process. Red Hat members of the working groups can make their merit-based cases the same way as anyone else, and if they can't show that merit to the community, they don't get a special trump card. They will have to find another way to advance their cause. You may think that this is just talk, but I promise you it isn't. Fedora provides value to Red Hat in many different ways, but genuine community voice is among the most crucial. If that voice tells us one thing and we can't listen, that's our failure, our loss -- and not what's going to happen here. It's completely fair for Red Hat -- and Red Hatters -- to talk about what directions in Fedora we think would be most beneficial to the company, and about the resources -- time, money, people, and so on -- that we could bring to bear in certain directions (and probably won't in other directions). If we clearly talk about that, and about the technical merit of directions proposed, and we can't be convincing, and can't adapt what we're proposing to become convincing... well, we have some soul-searching to do. And those words coming from a man who just back stabbed a man he went into feature process with and left him hanging ( Lennart ). Am I and the rest of the community supposed trust what you suddenly say and claim now? JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
