Re: wayland in rawhide

[Ian Malone]

On 30 November 2015 at 12:29, Steve Clark  wrote:
> On 11/26/2015 06:32 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
>>
>> On 25 November 2015 at 22:01, Adam Williamson
>>  wrote:
>>


>>> The wiki page explaining the GNOME-on-Wayland approach to middle-button
>>> paste - https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/PrimarySelection -
>>> makes this claim as one of the reasons why it wasn't initially planned
>>> for inclusion in Wayland:
>>>
>>> "Additionally, reasons against keeping it:
>>>
>>> the middle click is a hard-to-discover easter egg
>>> there are few middle mouse buttons in the world"
>>>
>>> Ian was, I think with reason, questioning the second of those. I was
>>> pointing out that those are only a couple of *supplementary* reasons,
>>> so it's not really worth spending much time disputing that assertion,
>>> even though it does seem like an odd one. The primary reasons why
>>> Wayland wasn't initially going to implement a PRIMARY selection
>>> mechanism are given earlier in the page:


> Throw these in to support any breakage you would like to introduce and
> suddenly you're a breath of fresh air blowing all the old cruft away
> and anyone who disagrees is stuck in the dark ages. Except in this
> case they're trivially demonstrated as untrue (well documented, unlike
> documenting all new features in blog posts and leaving them to rot,
> hardware support widespread). So this feature is being re-introduced
> because "many longterm X users have become reliant on this easter egg"
> (still an easter egg) and it is, "to ease the transition for long-term
>

> How can you say it is an "easter-egg"? It is clearly documented in the X
> Window system
> documentation.
>

Before anyone else gets confused about what I've written (seeing it's
happened once already), I'm not claiming it's an Easter egg, I'm
quoting the assertion on the wayland page linked above, and pointing
out the questionable use of language in it. I suppose that might have
been clearer if I had included quotes around the second occurence of
"Easter egg" in my mail, but I hope my objection to the use of the
term is clear enough from my post and my earlier emails in this
thread.

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Steve Clark]

On 11/26/2015 06:32 AM, Ian Malone wrote:

On 25 November 2015 at 22:01, Adam Williamson
 wrote:

On Wed, 2015-11-25 at 15:40 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:

On 11/25/2015 03:25 PM, drago01 wrote:

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 9:17 PM, Adam Williamson
 wrote:

On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 14:34 +, Ian Malone wrote:

[1] Apparently middle mouse buttons are rare. I'm in an office

This seems an odd assertion [...]

Its not odd ... its plain wrong.


I think Ian meant to say that the mice WITHOUT middle button are rare.
The quote above continues on like this:

 I'm in an office surrounded by them and them only computers I've used 
without one for roughly the past decade are my old laptop

Am I right, Ian?

No.


Well, it was what I said. I was going to add that it would be possible
to check in the archives, but I can't actually find my original post
there. Not sure why this thread has woken up again.


The wiki page explaining the GNOME-on-Wayland approach to middle-button
paste - https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/PrimarySelection -
makes this claim as one of the reasons why it wasn't initially planned
for inclusion in Wayland:

"Additionally, reasons against keeping it:

 the middle click is a hard-to-discover easter egg
 there are few middle mouse buttons in the world"

Ian was, I think with reason, questioning the second of those. I was
pointing out that those are only a couple of *supplementary* reasons,
so it's not really worth spending much time disputing that assertion,
even though it does seem like an odd one. The primary reasons why
Wayland wasn't initially going to implement a PRIMARY selection
mechanism are given earlier in the page:


I was questioning those and a tone that's become very common:
1. This is obscure, only crusty old dinosaurs know about it and use
it. (I'm fairly sure I'm neither crusty or old.)
2. Not relevant any more because Y.

Throw these in to support any breakage you would like to introduce and
suddenly you're a breath of fresh air blowing all the old cruft away
and anyone who disagrees is stuck in the dark ages. Except in this
case they're trivially demonstrated as untrue (well documented, unlike
documenting all new features in blog posts and leaving them to rot,
hardware support widespread). So this feature is being re-introduced
because "many longterm X users have become reliant on this easter egg"
(still an easter egg) and it is, "to ease the transition for long-term

How can you say it is an "easter-egg"? It is clearly documented in the X Window 
system
documentation.

X users." (Who just can't cope with the modern world, so let's throw
them a bone.) They look like very little consideration was given.


"Among the arguments for eschewing the PRIMARY selection were:

 It makes it easy to unintentionally paste passwords, snippets of
private conversations and other non-public information,
 into online communication.
 security concerns with unexpected data stealing if the mere act of
selecting a text fragment makes it available to all running
applications"


That is a genuine concern, but compare it to having a clipboard of the
past N selections which most users are probably not aware of either.
It looks like they've come up with a scheme to tie it down.


and it goes on to propose that the primary selection should in fact be
implemented.

And turned off by default of course.

Actually, my main comment (snipped) was that the utility of having
separate buffers is not even discussed, and it is not actually clear
that this wont simply be reintroduced as an option to turn on a form
of auto-copy on select. Which the discussion of the signalling
mechanism involved and the "not just text" aspect seem to suggest it
might be.




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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Ian Malone]

On 25 November 2015 at 22:01, Adam Williamson
 wrote:
> On Wed, 2015-11-25 at 15:40 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
>> On 11/25/2015 03:25 PM, drago01 wrote:
>> > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 9:17 PM, Adam Williamson
>> >  wrote:
>> > > On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 14:34 +, Ian Malone wrote:
>> > > > [1] Apparently middle mouse buttons are rare. I'm in an office
>> > > This seems an odd assertion [...]
>> > Its not odd ... its plain wrong.
>> >
>>
>> I think Ian meant to say that the mice WITHOUT middle button are rare.
>> The quote above continues on like this:
>>
>> I'm in an office surrounded by them and them only computers I've used 
>> without one for roughly the past decade are my old laptop
>>
>> Am I right, Ian?
>
> No.
>

Well, it was what I said. I was going to add that it would be possible
to check in the archives, but I can't actually find my original post
there. Not sure why this thread has woken up again.

> The wiki page explaining the GNOME-on-Wayland approach to middle-button
> paste - https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/PrimarySelection -
> makes this claim as one of the reasons why it wasn't initially planned
> for inclusion in Wayland:
>
> "Additionally, reasons against keeping it:
>
> the middle click is a hard-to-discover easter egg
> there are few middle mouse buttons in the world"
>
> Ian was, I think with reason, questioning the second of those. I was
> pointing out that those are only a couple of *supplementary* reasons,
> so it's not really worth spending much time disputing that assertion,
> even though it does seem like an odd one. The primary reasons why
> Wayland wasn't initially going to implement a PRIMARY selection
> mechanism are given earlier in the page:
>

I was questioning those and a tone that's become very common:
1. This is obscure, only crusty old dinosaurs know about it and use
it. (I'm fairly sure I'm neither crusty or old.)
2. Not relevant any more because Y.

Throw these in to support any breakage you would like to introduce and
suddenly you're a breath of fresh air blowing all the old cruft away
and anyone who disagrees is stuck in the dark ages. Except in this
case they're trivially demonstrated as untrue (well documented, unlike
documenting all new features in blog posts and leaving them to rot,
hardware support widespread). So this feature is being re-introduced
because "many longterm X users have become reliant on this easter egg"
(still an easter egg) and it is, "to ease the transition for long-term
X users." (Who just can't cope with the modern world, so let's throw
them a bone.) They look like very little consideration was given.

> "Among the arguments for eschewing the PRIMARY selection were:
>
> It makes it easy to unintentionally paste passwords, snippets of
> private conversations and other non-public information,
> into online communication.
> security concerns with unexpected data stealing if the mere act of
> selecting a text fragment makes it available to all running
> applications"
>

That is a genuine concern, but compare it to having a clipboard of the
past N selections which most users are probably not aware of either.
It looks like they've come up with a scheme to tie it down.

> and it goes on to propose that the primary selection should in fact be
> implemented.

And turned off by default of course.

Actually, my main comment (snipped) was that the utility of having
separate buffers is not even discussed, and it is not actually clear
that this wont simply be reintroduced as an option to turn on a form
of auto-copy on select. Which the discussion of the signalling
mechanism involved and the "not just text" aspect seem to suggest it
might be.

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Kevin Kofler]

Ian Malone wrote:
> This would actually be quite a productivity killer for me, not just
> the lack of middle-button paste[1], but also removing a separate
> copy-buffer. It is seriously useful to be able to carry around
> multiple pieces of text, particularly if you're going to need to
> keeping one and change the other (or working on two things at once).

For me, this is even a showstopper, and I will NOT use Wayland before this 
is fixed.

X11 forever!

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Adam Williamson]

On Wed, 2015-11-25 at 15:40 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> On 11/25/2015 03:25 PM, drago01 wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 9:17 PM, Adam Williamson
> >  wrote:
> > > On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 14:34 +, Ian Malone wrote:
> > > > [1] Apparently middle mouse buttons are rare. I'm in an office
> > > This seems an odd assertion [...]
> > Its not odd ... its plain wrong.
> > 
> 
> I think Ian meant to say that the mice WITHOUT middle button are rare. 
> The quote above continues on like this:
> 
> I'm in an office surrounded by them and them only computers I've used 
> without one for roughly the past decade are my old laptop
> 
> Am I right, Ian?

No.

The wiki page explaining the GNOME-on-Wayland approach to middle-button 
paste - https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/PrimarySelection -
makes this claim as one of the reasons why it wasn't initially planned
for inclusion in Wayland:

"Additionally, reasons against keeping it:

the middle click is a hard-to-discover easter egg
there are few middle mouse buttons in the world"

Ian was, I think with reason, questioning the second of those. I was
pointing out that those are only a couple of *supplementary* reasons,
so it's not really worth spending much time disputing that assertion,
even though it does seem like an odd one. The primary reasons why
Wayland wasn't initially going to implement a PRIMARY selection
mechanism are given earlier in the page:

"Among the arguments for eschewing the PRIMARY selection were:

It makes it easy to unintentionally paste passwords, snippets of
private conversations and other non-public information,
into online communication. 
security concerns with unexpected data stealing if the mere act of
selecting a text fragment makes it available to all running
applications"

and it goes on to propose that the primary selection should in fact be
implemented.
-- 
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Reindl Harald]

Am 25.11.2015 um 21:40 schrieb Przemek Klosowski:

On 11/25/2015 03:25 PM, drago01 wrote:

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 9:17 PM, Adam Williamson
  wrote:

On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 14:34 +, Ian Malone wrote:

[1] Apparently middle mouse buttons are rare. I'm in an office

This seems an odd assertion [...]

Its not odd ... its plain wrong.



I think Ian meant to say that the mice WITHOUT middle button are rare.
The quote above continues on like this:

I'm in an office surrounded by them and them only computers I've used 
without one for roughly the past decade are my old laptop

Am I right, Ian?


he refered to the nonsense at 
https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/PrimarySelection and the 
other posts just confirm this


 Weitergeleitete Nachricht --------
Betreff: Re: wayland in rawhide
Datum: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:34:39 +
Von: Ian Malone 
Antwort an: Development discussions related to Fedora 

An: Development discussions related to Fedora 



On 12 November 2015 at 14:59, Ray Strode  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:51 AM, Jared K. Smith
>  wrote:
>> I've been testing Wayland myself since around the F22 time period, but
>> "middle click paste" and the occasional odd bug keep annoying me 
enough to
>> go back to X.  Can you elaborate on the plans for supporting middle 
click to

>> paste, or is it considered a relic of a bygone era and I should try to
>> unlearn?
>
> Plans for middle-click paste are tracked here:
>
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/PrimarySelection
>

This would actually be quite a productivity killer for me, not just
the lack of middle-button paste[1], but also removing a separate
copy-buffer. It is seriously useful to be able to carry around
multiple pieces of text, particularly if you're going to need to
keeping one and change the other (or working on two things at once).

[1] Apparently middle mouse buttons are rare. I'm in an office
surrounded by them and them only computers I've used without one for
roughly the past decade are my old laptop (now moved on, but had
emulated middle click, maybe the wayland developers were unaware of
this too), and other people's mac laptops, which have their own
'easter egg' combinations of one, two, three(?) finger clicks and
drags.



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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Przemek Klosowski]

On 11/25/2015 03:25 PM, drago01 wrote:

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 9:17 PM, Adam Williamson
 wrote:

On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 14:34 +, Ian Malone wrote:

[1] Apparently middle mouse buttons are rare. I'm in an office

This seems an odd assertion [...]

Its not odd ... its plain wrong.



I think Ian meant to say that the mice WITHOUT middle button are rare. 
The quote above continues on like this:


   I'm in an office surrounded by them and them only computers I've used 
without one for roughly the past decade are my old laptop

Am I right, Ian?


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Re: wayland in rawhide

[drago01]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 9:17 PM, Adam Williamson
 wrote:
> On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 14:34 +, Ian Malone wrote:
>>
>> [1] Apparently middle mouse buttons are rare. I'm in an office
>
> This seems an odd assertion [...]

Its not odd ... its plain wrong.
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Adam Williamson]

On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 14:34 +, Ian Malone wrote:
> 
> [1] Apparently middle mouse buttons are rare. I'm in an office

This seems an odd assertion to me too, but it's only listed under
"Additionally, reasons against keeping it", which implies it's only a
secondary consideration.
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Andrew Clayton]

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 11:45:59 -0500, Steve Clark wrote:

> I just did a quick walk around our office of approximately 70 people
> and every mouse had 3 buttons. As far as the middle button paste
> being an "easter-egg" it was documented in the "X Windows Systems
> User Guide" on page 97 way back in 1990.
 
The 'easter-egg' comment grated on my brain also. It must have took me
all of 5 minutes of first using X back in '95 to find out 'middle
click to paste' and have never looked back. Not having it would be a
show stopper for me.

I must have about half a dozen mice around here and all have three
buttons (incl scroll wheel).

Andrew
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Steve Clark]

On 11/20/2015 09:34 AM, Ian Malone wrote:

On 12 November 2015 at 14:59, Ray Strode  wrote:

Hi,

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:51 AM, Jared K. Smith
 wrote:

I've been testing Wayland myself since around the F22 time period, but
"middle click paste" and the occasional odd bug keep annoying me enough to
go back to X.  Can you elaborate on the plans for supporting middle click to
paste, or is it considered a relic of a bygone era and I should try to
unlearn?

Plans for middle-click paste are tracked here:

https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/PrimarySelection


This would actually be quite a productivity killer for me, not just
the lack of middle-button paste[1], but also removing a separate
copy-buffer. It is seriously useful to be able to carry around
multiple pieces of text, particularly if you're going to need to
keeping one and change the other (or working on two things at once).

[1] Apparently middle mouse buttons are rare. I'm in an office
surrounded by them and them only computers I've used without one for
roughly the past decade are my old laptop (now moved on, but had
emulated middle click, maybe the wayland developers were unaware of
this too), and other people's mac laptops, which have their own
'easter egg' combinations of one, two, three(?) finger clicks and
drags.


I just did a quick walk around our office of approximately 70 people and every 
mouse had 3 buttons.
As far as the middle button paste being an "easter-egg" it was documented in the "X 
Windows Systems User Guide"
on page 97 way back in 1990.


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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Reindl Harald]

Am 20.11.2015 um 17:45 schrieb Steve Clark:

On 11/20/2015 09:34 AM, Ian Malone wrote:

[1] Apparently middle mouse buttons are rare. I'm in an office
surrounded by them and them only computers I've used without one for
roughly the past decade are my old laptop (now moved on, but had
emulated middle click, maybe the wayland developers were unaware of
this too), and other people's mac laptops, which have their own
'easter egg' combinations of one, two, three(?) finger clicks and
drags.


I just did a quick walk around our office of approximately 70 people and
every mouse had 3 buttons.
As far as the middle button paste being an "easter-egg" it was
documented in the "X Windows Systems User Guide"
on page 97 way back in 1990


well, i bought my first PC in august 1999, installed the first Linux 
october 1999 and used the middle-click-paste from the very beginning 
even on a 2-key mouse by just press both kyes at the same time


that was SuSE Linux 6.1 or so and now 16 years later we talk about 
"eastereggs" - not sure if i should laugh or whine about the new 
developer attitudes throwing away anything because someone pretend it's 
not known or used and replace woking things with feature crippeled shiny 
new ones bringing us back in time 15 to 30 years




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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Reindl Harald]

Am 20.11.2015 um 15:34 schrieb Ian Malone:

On 12 November 2015 at 14:59, Ray Strode  wrote:

Hi,

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:51 AM, Jared K. Smith
 wrote:

I've been testing Wayland myself since around the F22 time period, but
"middle click paste" and the occasional odd bug keep annoying me enough to
go back to X.  Can you elaborate on the plans for supporting middle click to
paste, or is it considered a relic of a bygone era and I should try to
unlearn?


Plans for middle-click paste are tracked here:

https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/PrimarySelection



This would actually be quite a productivity killer for me, not just
the lack of middle-button paste[1], but also removing a separate
copy-buffer. It is seriously useful to be able to carry around
multiple pieces of text, particularly if you're going to need to
keeping one and change the other (or working on two things at once).


+1


[1] Apparently middle mouse buttons are rare. I'm in an office
surrounded by them and them only computers I've used without one for
roughly the past decade are my old laptop (now moved on, but had
emulated middle click, maybe the wayland developers were unaware of
this too), and other people's mac laptops, which have their own
'easter egg' combinations of one, two, three(?) finger clicks and
drags


"there are few middle mouse buttons in the world" is just laughable in 
2015, every single wheel-mouse for many years supports just pressing the 
wheel and most these days even let you scroll left-right


if that would have been written by a Apple user 10 years ago, well, but 
now even the "you don't need more than one mouse button" apple fanboys 
truned to "a mouse without a wheel where you can scroll up-down *and* 
left-right is unusable"




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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Ian Malone]

On 12 November 2015 at 14:59, Ray Strode  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:51 AM, Jared K. Smith
>  wrote:
>> I've been testing Wayland myself since around the F22 time period, but
>> "middle click paste" and the occasional odd bug keep annoying me enough to
>> go back to X.  Can you elaborate on the plans for supporting middle click to
>> paste, or is it considered a relic of a bygone era and I should try to
>> unlearn?
>
> Plans for middle-click paste are tracked here:
>
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/PrimarySelection
>

This would actually be quite a productivity killer for me, not just
the lack of middle-button paste[1], but also removing a separate
copy-buffer. It is seriously useful to be able to carry around
multiple pieces of text, particularly if you're going to need to
keeping one and change the other (or working on two things at once).

[1] Apparently middle mouse buttons are rare. I'm in an office
surrounded by them and them only computers I've used without one for
roughly the past decade are my old laptop (now moved on, but had
emulated middle click, maybe the wayland developers were unaware of
this too), and other people's mac laptops, which have their own
'easter egg' combinations of one, two, three(?) finger clicks and
drags.

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Vít Ondruch]

Dne 20.11.2015 v 13:23 Thomas Gilliard napsal(a):
>
>
> On 11/20/2015 03:15 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote:
>> Dne 10.11.2015 v 20:54 Ray Strode napsal(a):
>>> Hey guys,
>>>
>>> Today I built snapshots of gnome-session gdm gnome-shell and mutter
>>> that change how we do sessions at the login screen. We'll no longer
>>> have separate items for GNOME and GNOME on Wayland.  Instead they're
>>> now both consolidated under the GNOME item.  That item will use
>>> wayland if it can, but if it falls back (because of a failure or
>>> nvidia proprietary drivers, or the user explicitly disables wayland in
>>> /etc/gdm/custom.conf) then that GNOME item will use Xorg instead.
>>>
>>> I'm doing this for now in rawhide as preparation for this system-wide
>>> f24 change:
>>>
>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault
>>>
>>> If things don't pan out for whatever reason, or the change gets
>>> otherwise rejected for f24, we'll split the items back out into two
>>> items.
>>>
>>> But it's good to get this in rawhide now, so we can get as much
>>> exposure as possible to potential wayland problems and get them fixed
>>> up before release.
>>>
>>> Just a heads up ! If you're a rawhide user please test!
>>>
>>> --Ray
>> So is there some tracker with all the issues? I observe various strange
>> behaviors, such as Empathy not opening Discussion dialog, tabs in FF
>> cannot be moved, various strange crashes after user log out, but no
>> response from stakeholders :/
>>
>>
>> Vít
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_debug_Wayland_problems

That is useful indeed. Thanks.

It should be linked from the change proposal page probably ...


Vít

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Thomas Gilliard]

On 11/20/2015 03:15 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote:

Dne 10.11.2015 v 20:54 Ray Strode napsal(a):

Hey guys,

Today I built snapshots of gnome-session gdm gnome-shell and mutter
that change how we do sessions at the login screen. We'll no longer
have separate items for GNOME and GNOME on Wayland.  Instead they're
now both consolidated under the GNOME item.  That item will use
wayland if it can, but if it falls back (because of a failure or
nvidia proprietary drivers, or the user explicitly disables wayland in
/etc/gdm/custom.conf) then that GNOME item will use Xorg instead.

I'm doing this for now in rawhide as preparation for this system-wide
f24 change:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault

If things don't pan out for whatever reason, or the change gets
otherwise rejected for f24, we'll split the items back out into two
items.

But it's good to get this in rawhide now, so we can get as much
exposure as possible to potential wayland problems and get them fixed
up before release.

Just a heads up ! If you're a rawhide user please test!

--Ray

So is there some tracker with all the issues? I observe various strange
behaviors, such as Empathy not opening Discussion dialog, tabs in FF
cannot be moved, various strange crashes after user log out, but no
response from stakeholders :/


Vít

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_debug_Wayland_problems

has a list  "Known issues, frequent complaints, fundamental changes"
satellit
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Vít Ondruch]

Dne 10.11.2015 v 20:54 Ray Strode napsal(a):
> Hey guys,
>
> Today I built snapshots of gnome-session gdm gnome-shell and mutter
> that change how we do sessions at the login screen. We'll no longer
> have separate items for GNOME and GNOME on Wayland.  Instead they're
> now both consolidated under the GNOME item.  That item will use
> wayland if it can, but if it falls back (because of a failure or
> nvidia proprietary drivers, or the user explicitly disables wayland in
> /etc/gdm/custom.conf) then that GNOME item will use Xorg instead.
>
> I'm doing this for now in rawhide as preparation for this system-wide
> f24 change:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault
>
> If things don't pan out for whatever reason, or the change gets
> otherwise rejected for f24, we'll split the items back out into two
> items.
>
> But it's good to get this in rawhide now, so we can get as much
> exposure as possible to potential wayland problems and get them fixed
> up before release.
>
> Just a heads up ! If you're a rawhide user please test!
>
> --Ray

So is there some tracker with all the issues? I observe various strange
behaviors, such as Empathy not opening Discussion dialog, tabs in FF
cannot be moved, various strange crashes after user log out, but no
response from stakeholders :/


Vít
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Ray Strode]

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Jared K. Smith
 wrote:
> Can you please tell me where to find this config option, as I can't seem to
> find it -- and I'm getting annoyed with Wayland enough to go back to X for a
> week or two until things improve.
WaylandEnable=false in /etc/gdm/custom.conf is what I was talking about, but
one of the things I added as a result of this thread is a

GNOME on Xorg

option in the session list in gdm.


 > The latest issue I'm seeing (and the one
> that bugs me enough to go back) is a set of weird cursor artifacts, as shown
> in this screencast:
That's tracked here:

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=758025

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Jared K. Smith]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 6:40 AM, Ray Strode  wrote:

> And we provide a config option to turn wayland off explicitly for
> cases where users just want or need
> to use X.
>


Can you please tell me where to find this config option, as I can't seem to
find it -- and I'm getting annoyed with Wayland enough to go back to X for
a week or two until things improve.  The latest issue I'm seeing (and the
one that bugs me enough to go back) is a set of weird cursor artifacts, as
shown in this screencast:
https://jsmith.fedorapeople.org/Bugs/wayland-cursor-issue.webm

The cursor looks like it's moving up and down in a cyclical fashion, and
gives me a headache very quickly :-(

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[David Airlie]

> hi,
> 
> > Here's one on Ironlake, with two monitors plugged in.
> >
> > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=750610
> >
> > still not fixed, doesn't fall back.
> Well, black screens obviously aren't good, and we should clearly fix this.
> 
> If we don't get it fixed by closer to release, than maybe it's a good
> data point for switching
> back to Xorg for fedora 24.  But note:
> 
> 1) 3 monitor setups are somewhat more rare than one and two monitor
> setups, so it's important to fix, but the impact is more limited so
> the problem didn't get as much exposure as it would have otherwise.

This is a laptop with two monitors plugged in, this isn't rare. nearly
every desk in my office is this use case. Some of them are even crazy
enough to want to rotate one of the monitors. For this case I also
think they have the laptop lid closed, so the 3rd monitor isn't even
on, or at least with X we'd always drop back to two monitors working
and the third off.

> 2) the bug was reported by a developer who has reproducing hardware
> and intimate domain knowledge around the functions related to the
> failure (you).

This bug was just an example I knew about, I'm sure we've many others that just
get a bit ignored, due to not being something trivially reproducible on
an a single user laptop.

I started debugging this, and realised after spending time in mutter,
that it clearly wasn't something I was going to be able to fix without
expending a lot more time, and clearly the people who wrote the code were
in a better position to debug.

Dave.
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Ray Strode]

hi,

> Here's one on Ironlake, with two monitors plugged in.
>
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=750610
>
> still not fixed, doesn't fall back.
Well, black screens obviously aren't good, and we should clearly fix this.

If we don't get it fixed by closer to release, than maybe it's a good
data point for switching
back to Xorg for fedora 24.  But note:

1) 3 monitor setups are somewhat more rare than one and two monitor
setups, so it's important to fix, but the impact is more limited so
the problem didn't get as much exposure as it would have otherwise.
2) the bug was reported by a developer who has reproducing hardware
and intimate domain knowledge around the functions related to the
failure (you).

I'm sure we can figure this one out after a few minutes poking at it
with the hardware.  If not you, then me, or Rui, or a hand full of
other people.

Regardless of what this bug means for Fedora 24, I don't think it
should affect what we're doing for rawhide.

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[David Airlie]

- Original Message -
> From: "Ray Strode" 
> To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" 
> 
> Sent: Friday, 13 November, 2015 12:56:48 AM
> Subject: Re: wayland in rawhide
> 
> Hi,
> 
> > This seems still still be confusing a lot of people, I see quite
> > regularly queries on some forums like G+ that when they upgrade to
> > anything post F-21 all they get is a black screen on boot. Is there
> > any way that if way for that to happen automatically where they don't
> > get to a gdm login prompt?
> 
> Well it's supposed to automatically happen if users don't get a GDM
> prompt, but there was a case with hybrid hardware where we sending the
> prompt to the wrong card.
> 
> That was fixed in this bug I think:
> 
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=753434

Here's one on Ironlake, with two monitors plugged in.

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=750610

still not fixed, doesn't fall back.

Like filing bugs is all well and good, but going default while nobody is fixing 
the blackscreens isn't good.

Dave
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Christian Schaller]

- Original Message -
> From: "Josh Boyer" 
> To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" 
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 8:05:27 PM
> Subject: Re: wayland in rawhide
> 
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 7:58 PM, David Airlie  wrote:
> >
> >> That's fine.  I don't have a problem adding "GNOME on Xorg" option to
> >> the session
> >> menu in the interim. I'll do it tomorrow.
> >
> > This is what the feature page said would happen in the first place. So
> > I'm also confused why you didn't just do that.
> >
> >>
> >> I will say you're coming off (to me anyway) as somewhat combative.  We're
> >> on
> >> the same team here.  Let's keep it constructive and friendly?
> >
> > Okay, I'll try and be a little less pissed off at disabling features users
> > use, that we've spent years implementing in X/GNOME.
> >
> > The fact you are requesting wayland by default while we still have the
> > following list:
> >
> > Close all remaining feature parity gaps between the Wayland and the X11
> > session:
> >
> > input methods
> > on-screen keyboard
> > hi-dpi support
> > clipboard proxy for xwayland
> > attached modal dialogs
> > tablet support
> > startup notification
> > touch proxy for xwayland
> > accessibility features
> > output rotation
> >
> > These are just the missing features (never mind dialog boxes in wierd
> > places bugs)
> > and it doesn't even contain the USB output hotplugging, or secondary GPU
> > output use cases.
> >
> > So maybe I'm getting old, but I thought we were over shoving half-baked
> > onto users now,
> > Maybe implement all those features, get them into the non-default wayland
> > session,
> > then go lobby for enabling the wayland session by default, otherwise I feel
> > you are
> > putting the cart before the horse.
> 
> Is the concern mostly about switching to it by default and then
> somehow users won't know how to switch back to X to get their missing
> features?
> 
> I'll admit that given some of the target audience we've pushed for
> where they expect things to "just work", that might be a valid
> concern.  If they log into an F24 Gnome session and the above things
> don't work, they won't view it as "oh Wayland."   They'll view it as
> "oh, regression" and likely not look at "X/Gnome" as a choice to fix
> all of it.
> 
> There is definitely a degree of lower-level understanding required to
> get back to a "normal" state in that case.  And it isn't like people
> are going to use many of those features in GDM heavily enough that
> they'd edit the conf file to switch GDM itself to X.
> 
> I have no idea if it's possible to detect usage of the above features
> in existing installs and not default to Wayland in that case.  Or if
> it's possible to switch to X if a user turns on one of the features on
> a new install.

We do expect to get all of these resolved during the Fedora 23 lifecycle,
the reason we are switching Rawhide is to push more people to get involved
with finding and fixing the issues we do not know about yet. This is a major 
change for us as a project and we need to take collective ownership of it,
if we expect to be able to sit back and let a few dedicated people pull the 
load alone here we are setting ourselves up for failure.

And let it be clearly said if we do not get these items resolved in time for 
Fedora 24 we will not switch to Wayland as default in Fedora 24. 

There are some items, like binary driver support, that are not likely to be 
resolved for Fedora 24, but for those the automatic X fallback should kick 
inn.

Christian
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 10:05:54AM -0500, Ray Strode wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > So I upgraded to F23 just around Alpha or Beta can’t remember and I’ve 
> > experienced some odd mouse / copy paste behaviour. I haven’t yet filed a 
> > bug but now I’m wondering… How do I know if I’m using Wayland? I’ve never 
> > specifically configured it so anything I’m experiencing in a normal GNOME 3 
> > session is either ‘normal’ but I don’t like it, configurable change that 
> > has a different default or some weird bug… I’d like to know if I’m somehow 
> > not using X anymore, and that’s the problem.
> 
> It's unlikely that you're using wayland in Fedora 23 since it's not
> the default.  You can check if you're on wayland by running
> 
> $ ls -l $XDG_RUNTIME_DIR/wayland-0

'xrandr' is easier to type... Output names have WAYLAND in them under wayland.

Zbyszek

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Ray Strode]

Hi,

> So I upgraded to F23 just around Alpha or Beta can’t remember and I’ve 
> experienced some odd mouse / copy paste behaviour. I haven’t yet filed a bug 
> but now I’m wondering… How do I know if I’m using Wayland? I’ve never 
> specifically configured it so anything I’m experiencing in a normal GNOME 3 
> session is either ‘normal’ but I don’t like it, configurable change that has 
> a different default or some weird bug… I’d like to know if I’m somehow not 
> using X anymore, and that’s the problem.

It's unlikely that you're using wayland in Fedora 23 since it's not
the default.  You can check if you're on wayland by running

$ ls -l $XDG_RUNTIME_DIR/wayland-0

if it returns a socket you're probably using wayland.
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Ray Strode]

Hi,

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:51 AM, Jared K. Smith
 wrote:
> I've been testing Wayland myself since around the F22 time period, but
> "middle click paste" and the occasional odd bug keep annoying me enough to
> go back to X.  Can you elaborate on the plans for supporting middle click to
> paste, or is it considered a relic of a bygone era and I should try to
> unlearn?

Plans for middle-click paste are tracked here:

https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/PrimarySelection

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Ray Strode]

Hi,

> This seems still still be confusing a lot of people, I see quite
> regularly queries on some forums like G+ that when they upgrade to
> anything post F-21 all they get is a black screen on boot. Is there
> any way that if way for that to happen automatically where they don't
> get to a gdm login prompt?

Well it's supposed to automatically happen if users don't get a GDM
prompt, but there was a case with hybrid hardware where we sending the
prompt to the wrong card.

That was fixed in this bug I think:

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=753434

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Reindl Harald]

Am 12.11.2015 um 15:31 schrieb Dominique Martinet:

It really didn't take me long after first using X-based interfaces to
make use of the primary buffer, and I've pretty much never used ^C/^V
ever since.

I only ever touch the mouse when I need to select something to
copy/paste it, so I'm not going to try to pretend I understand people
saying they don't want this behavior -- but likewise please don't say
that the "selection copies" behavior is bad for everyone.
It really isn't something I (and seemingly many others) want to lose,
ever
I also don't think multiple buffers is a good idea, I've always found
that confusing in X and this has been said in the bz as well, so we
really should try to keep a single buffer too


a single buffer don't when you use selection / middle click because you 
can not copy something, select something different and replace it with 
the clipboard and hence the X behavior is perfect to have *both*


for me that all sounds like again something trying me to sell 
feature-loss as improvement...




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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Reindl Harald]

Am 12.11.2015 um 15:31 schrieb Dominique Martinet:

It really didn't take me long after first using X-based interfaces to
make use of the primary buffer, and I've pretty much never used ^C/^V
ever since.

I only ever touch the mouse when I need to select something to
copy/paste it, so I'm not going to try to pretend I understand people
saying they don't want this behavior -- but likewise please don't say
that the "selection copies" behavior is bad for everyone.
It really isn't something I (and seemingly many others) want to lose,
ever
I also don't think multiple buffers is a good idea, I've always found
that confusing in X and this has been said in the bz as well, so we
really should try to keep a single buffer too


a single buffer don't when you use selection / middle click because you 
can not copy something, select something different and replace it with 
the clipboard and hence the X behavior is perfect to have *both*


for me that all sounds like again something trying me to sell 
feature-loss as improvement...




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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Dominique Martinet]

Hi,

Tom Hughes wrote on Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 02:22:35PM +:
> I think the bug explains fairly well why that is a bad idea.

Sorry to butt in, but no, it explains why a handful of people think it
is a bad idea, with another saying it's a good one.

> It's not so much on the paste side, where having middle click paste whatever
> was in the clipboard side would not be a major problem.
> 
> It's more that you probably wouldn't want your clipboard buffer overwritten
> whenever you selected some text.
> 
> Currently X has two (well three, but let's ignore the secondary selection)
> buffers. One for primary selection that is overwritten when you select and
> pasted with middle click and one for the clipboard selection that is
> overwritten on Ctrl+C and pasted on Ctrl+V.

It really didn't take me long after first using X-based interfaces to
make use of the primary buffer, and I've pretty much never used ^C/^V
ever since.

I only ever touch the mouse when I need to select something to
copy/paste it, so I'm not going to try to pretend I understand people
saying they don't want this behavior -- but likewise please don't say
that the "selection copies" behavior is bad for everyone.
It really isn't something I (and seemingly many others) want to lose,
ever.
I also don't think multiple buffers is a good idea, I've always found
that confusing in X and this has been said in the bz as well, so we
really should try to keep a single buffer too.

If we can't get to a compromise just make it an option and everyone will
be happy (except maybe for the nagging of what should be the default,
but people can just make a poll for that -- I personally don't care as
long as it's possible without having to hack code and rebuild)


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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Tom Hughes]

On 12/11/15 14:10, Chuck Anderson wrote:

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 10:59:02AM +, Tom Hughes wrote:

On 12/11/15 10:51, Jared K. Smith wrote:


On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Tom Hughes mailto:t...@compton.nu>> wrote:

You forgot primary selection/middle click paste, which was what made
me go back to X when I tried it in F23.

I've been testing Wayland myself since around the F22 time period, but
"middle click paste" and the occasional odd bug keep annoying me enough
to go back to X.  Can you elaborate on the plans for supporting middle
click to paste, or is it considered a relic of a bygone era and I should
try to unlearn?  I'm generally in favor of pushing the envelope a bit
when it comes to new features, but I have to admit that defaulting to
Wayland at this point seems a bit premature to me, even for rawhide.


All I know is what I found by googling:

   https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1214655

https://ask.fedoraproject.org/en/question/75924/fedora-23-wayland-gnome-terminal-mouse-middle-click-paste/


My brain hurts after reading that.  Since Wayland decided there should
be Only One clipboard buffer (which is probably a good idea), would it
be too hard to just make Menu Copy/Paste do the same thing as Keyboard
Copy/Paste (Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V) do the same thing as Select/Middle-Click
Copy/Paste, all with the same single clipboard buffer, on/between both
Xwayland apps and native Wayland apps?


I think the bug explains fairly well why that is a bad idea.

It's not so much on the paste side, where having middle click paste 
whatever was in the clipboard side would not be a major problem.


It's more that you probably wouldn't want your clipboard buffer 
overwritten whenever you selected some text.


Currently X has two (well three, but let's ignore the secondary 
selection) buffers. One for primary selection that is overwritten when 
you select and pasted with middle click and one for the clipboard 
selection that is overwritten on Ctrl+C and pasted on Ctrl+V.


Tom

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Reindl Harald]

Am 12.11.2015 um 15:10 schrieb Chuck Anderson:

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 10:59:02AM +, Tom Hughes wrote:

On 12/11/15 10:51, Jared K. Smith wrote:


On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Tom Hughes mailto:t...@compton.nu>> wrote:

You forgot primary selection/middle click paste, which was what made
me go back to X when I tried it in F23.

I've been testing Wayland myself since around the F22 time period, but
"middle click paste" and the occasional odd bug keep annoying me enough
to go back to X.  Can you elaborate on the plans for supporting middle
click to paste, or is it considered a relic of a bygone era and I should
try to unlearn?  I'm generally in favor of pushing the envelope a bit
when it comes to new features, but I have to admit that defaulting to
Wayland at this point seems a bit premature to me, even for rawhide.


All I know is what I found by googling:

   https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1214655

https://ask.fedoraproject.org/en/question/75924/fedora-23-wayland-gnome-terminal-mouse-middle-click-paste/


My brain hurts after reading that.  Since Wayland decided there should
be Only One clipboard buffer (which is probably a good idea), would it
be too hard to just make Menu Copy/Paste do the same thing as Keyboard
Copy/Paste (Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V) do the same thing as Select/Middle-Click
Copy/Paste, all with the same single clipboard buffer, on/between both
Xwayland apps and native Wayland apps?


we will lose the ability to have one regular clipboard and one with the 
selection and middle click?


that was and is a great option if you have to paste different things 
multiple times in the same document (source code) and makes things so 
much faster when you just have to move the pointer and press middle-key 
or CTRL+V on the postion you need it




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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Chuck Anderson]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 10:59:02AM +, Tom Hughes wrote:
> On 12/11/15 10:51, Jared K. Smith wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Tom Hughes  >> wrote:
> >
> >You forgot primary selection/middle click paste, which was what made
> >me go back to X when I tried it in F23.
> >
> >I've been testing Wayland myself since around the F22 time period, but
> >"middle click paste" and the occasional odd bug keep annoying me enough
> >to go back to X.  Can you elaborate on the plans for supporting middle
> >click to paste, or is it considered a relic of a bygone era and I should
> >try to unlearn?  I'm generally in favor of pushing the envelope a bit
> >when it comes to new features, but I have to admit that defaulting to
> >Wayland at this point seems a bit premature to me, even for rawhide.
> 
> All I know is what I found by googling:
> 
>   https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1214655
> 
> https://ask.fedoraproject.org/en/question/75924/fedora-23-wayland-gnome-terminal-mouse-middle-click-paste/

My brain hurts after reading that.  Since Wayland decided there should
be Only One clipboard buffer (which is probably a good idea), would it
be too hard to just make Menu Copy/Paste do the same thing as Keyboard
Copy/Paste (Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V) do the same thing as Select/Middle-Click
Copy/Paste, all with the same single clipboard buffer, on/between both
Xwayland apps and native Wayland apps?
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Tom Hughes]

On 12/11/15 10:51, Jared K. Smith wrote:


On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Tom Hughes mailto:t...@compton.nu>> wrote:

You forgot primary selection/middle click paste, which was what made
me go back to X when I tried it in F23.

I've been testing Wayland myself since around the F22 time period, but
"middle click paste" and the occasional odd bug keep annoying me enough
to go back to X.  Can you elaborate on the plans for supporting middle
click to paste, or is it considered a relic of a bygone era and I should
try to unlearn?  I'm generally in favor of pushing the envelope a bit
when it comes to new features, but I have to admit that defaulting to
Wayland at this point seems a bit premature to me, even for rawhide.


All I know is what I found by googling:

  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1214655

https://ask.fedoraproject.org/en/question/75924/fedora-23-wayland-gnome-terminal-mouse-middle-click-paste/

Tom

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Jared K. Smith]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Tom Hughes  wrote:

> You forgot primary selection/middle click paste, which was what made me go
> back to X when I tried it in F23.



I've been testing Wayland myself since around the F22 time period, but
"middle click paste" and the occasional odd bug keep annoying me enough to
go back to X.  Can you elaborate on the plans for supporting middle click
to paste, or is it considered a relic of a bygone era and I should try to
unlearn?  I'm generally in favor of pushing the envelope a bit when it
comes to new features, but I have to admit that defaulting to Wayland at
this point seems a bit premature to me, even for rawhide.

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Nathanael Noblet]

> On Nov 12, 2015, at 8:10 AM, Tom Hughes  wrote:
> 
> On 12/11/15 00:58, David Airlie wrote:
> 
>> Close all remaining feature parity gaps between the Wayland and the X11 
>> session:
>> 
>> input methods
>> on-screen keyboard
>> hi-dpi support
>> clipboard proxy for xwayland
>> attached modal dialogs
>> tablet support
>> startup notification
>> touch proxy for xwayland
>> accessibility features
>> output rotation
>> 
>> These are just the missing features (never mind dialog boxes in wierd places 
>> bugs)
>> and it doesn't even contain the USB output hotplugging, or secondary GPU 
>> output use cases.
> 
> You forgot primary selection/middle click paste, which was what made me go 
> back to X when I tried it in F23.
> 

So I upgraded to F23 just around Alpha or Beta can’t remember and I’ve 
experienced some odd mouse / copy paste behaviour. I haven’t yet filed a bug 
but now I’m wondering… How do I know if I’m using Wayland? I’ve never 
specifically configured it so anything I’m experiencing in a normal GNOME 3 
session is either ‘normal’ but I don’t like it, configurable change that has a 
different default or some weird bug… I’d like to know if I’m somehow not using 
X anymore, and that’s the problem.

— 
Nathanael

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Peter Robinson]

>>> That's fine.  I don't have a problem adding "GNOME on Xorg" option to
>>> the session
>>> menu in the interim. I'll do it tomorrow.
>>
>> This is what the feature page said would happen in the first place. So
>> I'm also confused why you didn't just do that.
> Initially the feature page was written before Fedora 23.  I was involved in
> a more recent discussion about the implementation details of
> pushing the big red switch, and having one item that did fallback was the
> conclusion of the discussion.  I did edit the wiki to say this:
>
> Users will be able to disable wayland by setting WaylandEnable=false
>  in /etc/gdm/custom.conf but there will no longer be two separate menu
> items for GNOME on Wayland and GNOME on X11.

This seems still still be confusing a lot of people, I see quite
regularly queries on some forums like G+ that when they upgrade to
anything post F-21 all they get is a black screen on boot. Is there
any way that if way for that to happen automatically where they don't
get to a gdm login prompt?

Peter
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Tom Hughes]

On 12/11/15 00:58, David Airlie wrote:


Close all remaining feature parity gaps between the Wayland and the X11 session:

 input methods
 on-screen keyboard
 hi-dpi support
 clipboard proxy for xwayland
 attached modal dialogs
 tablet support
 startup notification
 touch proxy for xwayland
 accessibility features
 output rotation

These are just the missing features (never mind dialog boxes in wierd places 
bugs)
and it doesn't even contain the USB output hotplugging, or secondary GPU output 
use cases.


You forgot primary selection/middle click paste, which was what made me 
go back to X when I tried it in F23.


Tom

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Tomasz Torcz]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 06:16:55PM -0500, Ray Strode wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 3:35 PM, David Airlie  wrote:
> > Maybe trialing GNOME on wayland as the default is premature but removing 
> > the option
> > on login to use GNOME on X is definitely. As such I respectfully ask you 
> > put that
> > option back in rawhide.
> So just to be clear, there is an option to use X.  It's the same
> option people have used
> to force the login screen to X the past two releases.  It's just been
> extended to apply
> to user sessions as well.  You're objection isn't that there is no
> option, it's that it's not
> as prominently placed as you'd like it to be.
> 

  Existence of ”unbreak my system” option is a bad sign.

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xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl   one blends softly casual into the other.

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 11 November 2015 at 18:05, Josh Boyer  wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 7:58 PM, David Airlie  wrote:
>>
>>> That's fine.  I don't have a problem adding "GNOME on Xorg" option to
>>> the session
>>> menu in the interim. I'll do it tomorrow.
>>
>> This is what the feature page said would happen in the first place. So
>> I'm also confused why you didn't just do that.
>>
>>>
>>> I will say you're coming off (to me anyway) as somewhat combative.  We're on
>>> the same team here.  Let's keep it constructive and friendly?
>>
>> Okay, I'll try and be a little less pissed off at disabling features users
>> use, that we've spent years implementing in X/GNOME.
>>
>> The fact you are requesting wayland by default while we still have the 
>> following list:
>>
>> Close all remaining feature parity gaps between the Wayland and the X11 
>> session:
>>
>> input methods
>> on-screen keyboard
>> hi-dpi support
>> clipboard proxy for xwayland
>> attached modal dialogs
>> tablet support
>> startup notification
>> touch proxy for xwayland
>> accessibility features
>> output rotation
>>
>> These are just the missing features (never mind dialog boxes in wierd places 
>> bugs)
>> and it doesn't even contain the USB output hotplugging, or secondary GPU 
>> output use cases.
>>
>> So maybe I'm getting old, but I thought we were over shoving half-baked onto 
>> users now,
>> Maybe implement all those features, get them into the non-default wayland 
>> session,
>> then go lobby for enabling the wayland session by default, otherwise I feel 
>> you are
>> putting the cart before the horse.
>
> Is the concern mostly about switching to it by default and then
> somehow users won't know how to switch back to X to get their missing
> features?
>
> I'll admit that given some of the target audience we've pushed for
> where they expect things to "just work", that might be a valid
> concern.  If they log into an F24 Gnome session and the above things
> don't work, they won't view it as "oh Wayland."   They'll view it as
> "oh, regression" and likely not look at "X/Gnome" as a choice to fix
> all of it.
>

Well this is in rawhide and the number of users who expect things to
'just work' are probably much smaller than the ones who expect 20+
year old printers to work in 64 bits :). The problem is that there are
2 sets of people here trying to get stuff done:

1) People wanting to get a new feature in front of some set of users
before alpha/beta occur in February
2) People wanting to have rawhide be stable enough day to day to test
the other parts of the stack they care about.

This is probably one of those cases where having rawhide spins is the
best solution where team A can test stuff without breaking team B's
stuff. [Even when A and B are sitting 1-4 cubicles apart.] {if you
hear cries of anguish it was releng and qa thinking of having rawhide
spins...}



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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Ray Strode]

Hi,

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 7:58 PM, David Airlie  wrote:
>
>> That's fine.  I don't have a problem adding "GNOME on Xorg" option to
>> the session
>> menu in the interim. I'll do it tomorrow.
>
> This is what the feature page said would happen in the first place. So
> I'm also confused why you didn't just do that.
Initially the feature page was written before Fedora 23.  I was involved in
a more recent discussion about the implementation details of
pushing the big red switch, and having one item that did fallback was the
conclusion of the discussion.  I did edit the wiki to say this:

Users will be able to disable wayland by setting WaylandEnable=false
 in /etc/gdm/custom.conf but there will no longer be two separate menu
items for GNOME on Wayland and GNOME on X11.

before I posted the announcement.  Did I miss somewhere else on the
page that contradicts that? or are you alluding to back when the page
was first written?

> These are just the missing features (never mind dialog boxes in wierd places 
> bugs)
> and it doesn't even contain the USB output hotplugging, or secondary GPU 
> output use cases.
That list isn't exactly accurate. Some of the items on their have been
fixed since they were
added pre-f23.  I did peck at the list a little, but  I'll do a more
exhaustive update tomorrow.

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Josh Boyer]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 7:58 PM, David Airlie  wrote:
>
>> That's fine.  I don't have a problem adding "GNOME on Xorg" option to
>> the session
>> menu in the interim. I'll do it tomorrow.
>
> This is what the feature page said would happen in the first place. So
> I'm also confused why you didn't just do that.
>
>>
>> I will say you're coming off (to me anyway) as somewhat combative.  We're on
>> the same team here.  Let's keep it constructive and friendly?
>
> Okay, I'll try and be a little less pissed off at disabling features users
> use, that we've spent years implementing in X/GNOME.
>
> The fact you are requesting wayland by default while we still have the 
> following list:
>
> Close all remaining feature parity gaps between the Wayland and the X11 
> session:
>
> input methods
> on-screen keyboard
> hi-dpi support
> clipboard proxy for xwayland
> attached modal dialogs
> tablet support
> startup notification
> touch proxy for xwayland
> accessibility features
> output rotation
>
> These are just the missing features (never mind dialog boxes in wierd places 
> bugs)
> and it doesn't even contain the USB output hotplugging, or secondary GPU 
> output use cases.
>
> So maybe I'm getting old, but I thought we were over shoving half-baked onto 
> users now,
> Maybe implement all those features, get them into the non-default wayland 
> session,
> then go lobby for enabling the wayland session by default, otherwise I feel 
> you are
> putting the cart before the horse.

Is the concern mostly about switching to it by default and then
somehow users won't know how to switch back to X to get their missing
features?

I'll admit that given some of the target audience we've pushed for
where they expect things to "just work", that might be a valid
concern.  If they log into an F24 Gnome session and the above things
don't work, they won't view it as "oh Wayland."   They'll view it as
"oh, regression" and likely not look at "X/Gnome" as a choice to fix
all of it.

There is definitely a degree of lower-level understanding required to
get back to a "normal" state in that case.  And it isn't like people
are going to use many of those features in GDM heavily enough that
they'd edit the conf file to switch GDM itself to X.

I have no idea if it's possible to detect usage of the above features
in existing installs and not default to Wayland in that case.  Or if
it's possible to switch to X if a user turns on one of the features on
a new install.

josh
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[David Airlie]

> That's fine.  I don't have a problem adding "GNOME on Xorg" option to
> the session
> menu in the interim. I'll do it tomorrow.

This is what the feature page said would happen in the first place. So
I'm also confused why you didn't just do that.

> 
> I will say you're coming off (to me anyway) as somewhat combative.  We're on
> the same team here.  Let's keep it constructive and friendly?

Okay, I'll try and be a little less pissed off at disabling features users
use, that we've spent years implementing in X/GNOME.

The fact you are requesting wayland by default while we still have the 
following list:

Close all remaining feature parity gaps between the Wayland and the X11 session:

input methods
on-screen keyboard
hi-dpi support
clipboard proxy for xwayland
attached modal dialogs
tablet support
startup notification
touch proxy for xwayland
accessibility features
output rotation 

These are just the missing features (never mind dialog boxes in wierd places 
bugs)
and it doesn't even contain the USB output hotplugging, or secondary GPU output 
use cases.

So maybe I'm getting old, but I thought we were over shoving half-baked onto 
users now,
Maybe implement all those features, get them into the non-default wayland 
session,
then go lobby for enabling the wayland session by default, otherwise I feel you 
are
putting the cart before the horse.

Dave.
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Ray Strode]

Hi,

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 3:35 PM, David Airlie  wrote:
> Maybe trialing GNOME on wayland as the default is premature but removing the 
> option
> on login to use GNOME on X is definitely. As such I respectfully ask you put 
> that
> option back in rawhide.
So just to be clear, there is an option to use X.  It's the same
option people have used
to force the login screen to X the past two releases.  It's just been
extended to apply
to user sessions as well.  You're objection isn't that there is no
option, it's that it's not
as prominently placed as you'd like it to be.

That's fine.  I don't have a problem adding "GNOME on Xorg" option to
the session
menu in the interim. I'll do it tomorrow.

I will say you're coming off (to me anyway) as somewhat combative.  We're on
the same team here.  Let's keep it constructive and friendly?

> If you still disagree, I'll probably have to spend time I could spend working 
> on
> stuff, taking this through some Fedora process I haven't had to deal with.
I think your input when the system-wide change is discussed would be valued.
Clearly, any help you provide with wayland is valued as well.

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[David Airlie]

> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 4:32 PM, David Airlie  wrote:
> > I'd rather we waited until wayland sessions are feature equivalent with X.
> Note this is in rawhide, early in the Fedora 24 devel cycle.  If things don't
> work out, going back isn't hard.
> 
> > Sweeping this under the carpet and then not providing users any way to get
> > to something that
> > works on their hardware.
> We fall back to X in cases when we notice things aren't working, just
> as we do for the login screen.
> Remember we've been shipping the login screen on wayland for 2 releases now.
> And we provide a config option to turn wayland off explicitly for
> cases where users just want or need
> to use X.

The login screen is fine, if it just comes up on your laptop display you can
still login, however the active desktop session is a different story.

You are enabling something that is known broken and removes features from users.

Desktop rotation doesn't work for starters. This is a pretty basic feature that
I know lots of people use. You've just enabled a regression by default for all 
of
these people. This isn't what rawhide is for. If someone reports the regression
in a bug will you revert this feature.

Maybe trialing GNOME on wayland as the default is premature but removing the 
option
on login to use GNOME on X is definitely. As such I respectfully ask you put 
that
option back in rawhide.

If you still disagree, I'll probably have to spend time I could spend working on
stuff, taking this through some Fedora process I haven't had to deal with.

Dave.
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Re: wayland in rawhide

[Ray Strode]

Hi,

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 4:32 PM, David Airlie  wrote:
> I'd rather we waited until wayland sessions are feature equivalent with X.
Note this is in rawhide, early in the Fedora 24 devel cycle.  If things don't
work out, going back isn't hard.

> Sweeping this under the carpet and then not providing users any way to get to 
> something that
> works on their hardware.
We fall back to X in cases when we notice things aren't working, just
as we do for the login screen.
Remember we've been shipping the login screen on wayland for 2 releases now.
And we provide a config option to turn wayland off explicitly for
cases where users just want or need
to use X.

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Re: wayland in rawhide

[David Airlie]

> Today I built snapshots of gnome-session gdm gnome-shell and mutter
> that change how we do sessions at the login screen. We'll no longer
> have separate items for GNOME and GNOME on Wayland.  Instead they're
> now both consolidated under the GNOME item.  That item will use
> wayland if it can, but if it falls back (because of a failure or
> nvidia proprietary drivers, or the user explicitly disables wayland in
> /etc/gdm/custom.conf) then that GNOME item will use Xorg instead.
> 
> I'm doing this for now in rawhide as preparation for this system-wide
> f24 change:
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault
> 
> If things don't pan out for whatever reason, or the change gets
> otherwise rejected for f24, we'll split the items back out into two
> items.
> 
> But it's good to get this in rawhide now, so we can get as much
> exposure as possible to potential wayland problems and get them fixed
> up before release.
> 
> Just a heads up ! If you're a rawhide user please test!

I'd rather we waited until wayland sessions are feature equivalent with X.
Sweeping this under the carpet and then not providing users any way to get to 
something that
works on their hardware. The Fedora world isn't just an Intel laptop.
We know off enough bugs in mutter/wayland and feature differences without
forcing it on the world. Maybe we should spend more time fixing the deficiencies
we know about before going out and finding new ones.

For examples this change deliberately breaks optimus machines in
rawhide and stops USB monitor hotplugging from working, these are features
I spent a lot of time making sure they worked in Fedora and you have just
removed them without consulting me. As such I request you revert this.

Also I'd wait until mutter stops requiring Xwayland running for native apps.

Dave.
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