Re: [Geany-Devel] Switched to Win~1

[Tim Tassonis]

A bit surprised as well, but just goes to show how divisive the systemd 
people and their successful attempts to pull all major distros on their 
side are for the whole Linux community. The critics are left with a feeling 
of total helplessness, as even Debian bent over willingly and swept aside 
things like portability with their own non-Linux variants, effectively 
abandoning them, just repeating the well layed-out systemd propaganda with 
nearly robotic obeyance. Lennart and co really demonstrate an example 
masterpiece of how to destroy a community, by constantly breaking promises, 
creating unnecessary dependencies to force their stuff down people's 
throats, calling every critic a dinosaur of the nineties and an emotionally 
unstable "systemd hater", all for the sake of a few seconds bootup speed.



On September 22, 2014 7:47:25 AM Thomas Martitz  wrote:


Am 21.09.2014 um 15:48 schrieb Dimitar Zhekov:
> Hi,
>
> Since Debian is leaning more and more towards systemd, especially with
> gvfs installed, and since systemd-init breaks my system, I finally sat
> on my back and migrated to Windows. It's not a good system either, but
> gets the job done.
>
> Now, Geany under Win~1 has some deficiencies, due to gtk+, so I'll
> probably use it as a debugger only, and limit myself to the official
> releases. But if somebody decides to apply the spawning fix, or
> parsing the columns in compiler messages, or the small patch that adds
> virtual column to the status bar, I will be glad to help.
>
> Also, if Scope has any problems building with or running under gtk+3,
> I'll fix them (some Linux programs are not replaceable, so I kept a
> small Debian system in dual boot). But there will be no gtk+4 support,
> at least not from me.


This is a joke right?

Seriously, I can understand that systemd is controversial, but not to
the extend to abandon *Unix* altogether. There are many many ways to
avoid systemd without going Windows, for example using a distro that
doesn't use systemd (Gentoo, Slackware, etc) or one of the BSDs.

Or, as you are on debian already, install the legacy sysvinit. It will
be fully supported at least throughout Jessie (so 5+ years). Or use
Ubuntu 14.04, which is still using upstart and will also be supported
until 2019. I'm sure all controversial points are solved by 2019, either
by systemd or a fork.

I think it's just you leaning towards Windows. This is OK but don't
blame systemd for it.

Best regards
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Re: [Geany-Devel] Switched to Win~1

[Nick Treleaven]

On 21/09/2014 14:48, Dimitar Zhekov wrote:

I finally sat on my back and migrated to Windows. It's not a good system
either, but gets the job done.


Welcome, I did the same when I replaced a broken laptop, installing 
Ubuntu, which refused to boot after I did a dist-upgrade. I didn't have 
the energy to download and reinstall another linux. The upside is that 
you don't have to dist-upgrade Windows just to run the latest software. 
The downside: no package management, malware, slow malware scanners.



Now, Geany under Win~1 has some deficiencies, due to gtk+, so I'll


Such as?


probably use it as a debugger only, and limit myself to the official
releases


I've not had any trouble building from Git with MSYS. Occasionally it 
needs simple fixes to compile.



But there will be no gtk+4 support,
at least not from me.


GTK 4 :-o Hadn't heard of that. If it's anything like the GTK 3 
transition: be afraid!

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Re: [Geany-Devel] SourceFarce

[Nick Treleaven]

On 01/09/2014 03:27, Matthew Brush wrote:

I deleted my Source Forge account after like 20 times of losing my
comments. This final time it was a detailed C++ explanation on
Scintilla's bug tracker that took a lot of thought and effort to write,
which as usual I lost


I've not used it much, but last week I experienced this. Submitting a 
comment when I'm apparently logged-in then made me login again, where I 
am greeted by the same page without my comment. Hitting back failed to 
allow me to recover my 'unsubmitted' comment (that sometimes works on 
other sites). Perhaps there's some kind of login timeout, but either way 
the situation sucks.

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Re: [Geany-Devel] Switched to Win~1

[Dimitar Zhekov]

On 22.9.2014 г. 08:46, Thomas Martitz wrote:

Am 21.09.2014 um 15:48 schrieb Dimitar Zhekov:


Since Debian is leaning more and more towards systemd, especially with
gvfs installed, and since systemd-init breaks my system, I finally sat
on my back and migrated to Windows. It's not a good system either, but
gets the job done.


This is a joke right?


I wish it was.


Seriously, I can understand that systemd is controversial, but not to
the extend to abandon *Unix* altogether. There are many many ways to
avoid systemd without going Windows, for example using a distro that
doesn't use systemd (Gentoo, Slackware, etc) or one of the BSDs.


I could not care less for being controversial - it's *broken* for me.

If I'm going to distro-hop, why not Windows? A working desktop, if 
nothing else.



Or, as you are on debian already, install the legacy sysvinit. It will
be fully supported at least throughout Jessie (so 5+ years). Or use
Ubuntu 14.04, which is still using upstart and will also be supported
until 2019. I'm sure all controversial points are solved by 2019, either
by systemd or a fork.


I said I kept a minimal Linux system, and it's with sysv-init of course 
(systemd-init is almost unusable for me). But I had to downgrade + block 
the updates of about 10 other packages due to dependencies, and sooner 
or later, udev, gvfs or something else will start to require the latest 
systemd, which *insists* on being init. So "fully supported" is for very 
low values of "full".


"Supported until 2019" normally means "will be fine if you don't upgrade 
anything until 2019, except for security fixes". Thanks - but no thanks.



I think it's just you leaning towards Windows. This is OK but don't
blame systemd for it.


After 15 years of using Linux desktop, 3 of which as maintainer of a 
source-based distribution? :)


But you are right that systemd is not the only reason. KDE 4, GNOME 3, 
FF[1], the list goes on, and recently even gtk+ 2.24.23+ (IIRC the 
revision) is slightly broken. Guess I finally lost faith in the Linux as 
desktop. I hope, for all of you, that Xfce 5 will be just fine.


[1] It's cross platform, of course, but the gtk+ version for Linux was 
very nice.


--
E-gards: Jimmy
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Re: [Geany-Devel] Switched to Win~1

[Kernc]

>
> If I'm going to distro-hop, why not Windows? A working desktop, if nothing
> else.
>

Yeah, good luck with that.

http://catb.org/esr/writings/unix-koans/returning.html
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Re: [Geany-Devel] Switched to Win~1

[Steven Blatnick]

Responses below:

On 09/22/2014 09:23 AM, Dimitar Zhekov wrote:
After 15 years of using Linux desktop, 3 of which as maintainer of a 
source-based distribution? :)
I'm glad (if you want to call it that) to hear that it sounds like only 
a recent trend to abandon the users.  I hope they figure things out, 
because it's been a painful few years because of the recent trends.  I'm 
surprised at how much grief some of these projects have caused to linux 
users as a whole, but it's like they are ignoring their constituents.  
Linux.  I fight for the users ;-) (tron reference)


But you are right that systemd is not the only reason. KDE 4, GNOME 3, 
FF[1], the list goes on, and recently even gtk+ 2.24.23+ (IIRC the 
revision) is slightly broken. Guess I finally lost faith in the Linux 
as desktop. I hope, for all of you, that Xfce 5 will be just fine.
I'm also happy to hear someone reiterate my disgruntlement with GNOME 
3.  One small glimmer of hope is that Ubuntu Mate 
 is emerging to fill that nostalgic gap.  
Unfortunately, I don't know if they are doing anything with systemd, as 
it will still be based on Ubuntu, but at least I get my sane interfaces 
back without having to switch to Xfce :-/  They are even packaging 
compiz, which much of linux practically abandoning it has been another 
sore spot for me, although that could be blamed on GNOME 3 partly as 
well for going to Mutter.  Now if only I could convince them to package 
Emerald window decorator.  I miss 2007 linux ;-)


I especially like these points in Ubuntu Mate's mission:

 * *Restore the halcyon days of Ubuntu* before Unity
    (I would add GNOME 3 here) was introduced.
 * Provide a *refuge* for Linux users who prefer a traditional desktop
   metaphor.

Anyway, I hope the team doesn't mind my sharing about this recent distro.

Steve

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Re: [Geany-Devel] SourceFarce

[Matthew Brush]

On 14-09-22 04:44 AM, Nick Treleaven wrote:

On 01/09/2014 03:27, Matthew Brush wrote:

I deleted my Source Forge account after like 20 times of losing my
comments. This final time it was a detailed C++ explanation on
Scintilla's bug tracker that took a lot of thought and effort to write,
which as usual I lost


I've not used it much, but last week I experienced this. Submitting a
comment when I'm apparently logged-in then made me login again, where I
am greeted by the same page without my comment. Hitting back failed to
allow me to recover my 'unsubmitted' comment (that sometimes works on
other sites). Perhaps there's some kind of login timeout, but either way
the situation sucks.



That's exactly it. I think it must be an issue between SourceForge's 
user/login system and the (somehow independent-ish) Allura software 
we're (trying) to use for our bug tracker. I asked on #allura freenode 
channel a few times with no response, and of course to submit a bug 
report requires to use SourceForge :)


Cheers,
Matthew Brush
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Re: [Geany-Devel] Switched to Win~1

[Matthew Brush]

On 14-09-22 08:48 AM, Steven Blatnick wrote:

Responses below:

On 09/22/2014 09:23 AM, Dimitar Zhekov wrote:

After 15 years of using Linux desktop, 3 of which as maintainer of a
source-based distribution? :)

I'm glad (if you want to call it that) to hear that it sounds like only
a recent trend to abandon the users.  I hope they figure things out,
because it's been a painful few years because of the recent trends.  I'm
surprised at how much grief some of these projects have caused to linux
users as a whole, but it's like they are ignoring their constituents.
Linux.  I fight for the users ;-) (tron reference)


But you are right that systemd is not the only reason. KDE 4, GNOME 3,
FF[1], the list goes on, and recently even gtk+ 2.24.23+ (IIRC the
revision) is slightly broken. Guess I finally lost faith in the Linux
as desktop. I hope, for all of you, that Xfce 5 will be just fine.

I'm also happy to hear someone reiterate my disgruntlement with GNOME
3.  One small glimmer of hope is that Ubuntu Mate
 is emerging to fill that nostalgic gap.
Unfortunately, I don't know if they are doing anything with systemd, as
it will still be based on Ubuntu, but at least I get my sane interfaces
back without having to switch to Xfce :-/  They are even packaging
compiz, which much of linux practically abandoning it has been another
sore spot for me, although that could be blamed on GNOME 3 partly as
well for going to Mutter.  Now if only I could convince them to package
Emerald window decorator.  I miss 2007 linux ;-)

I especially like these points in Ubuntu Mate's mission:

  * *Restore the halcyon days of Ubuntu* before Unity
 (I would add GNOME 3 here) was introduced.
  * Provide a *refuge* for Linux users who prefer a traditional desktop
metaphor.



It's weird you (and others) seem to dismiss XFCE while citing this as a 
goal. I've been using Xubuntu for nearly as long as I've been using 
Linux and it's been a great distro+DE configuration; familiar, painless, 
configurable, minimal, few bugs, each distro upgrade goes super smooth, 
and otherwise the whole thing stays out of the way.


P.S. I have my fingers crossed Ubuntu will shield me from this systemd 
brouhaha I keep hearing about :)


Cheers,
Matthew Brush
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Re: [Geany-Devel] Switched to Win~1

[Matthew Brush]

On 14-09-22 08:23 AM, Dimitar Zhekov wrote:

On 22.9.2014 г. 08:46, Thomas Martitz wrote:

[snip]
Seriously, I can understand that systemd is controversial, but not to
the extend to abandon *Unix* altogether. There are many many ways to
avoid systemd without going Windows, for example using a distro that
doesn't use systemd (Gentoo, Slackware, etc) or one of the BSDs.


I could not care less for being controversial - it's *broken* for me.

If I'm going to distro-hop, why not Windows? A working desktop, if
nothing else.



In no particular order, off the top of my head...

- Sandboxing
- Windows Store
- .NET
- Boxes
- Inaccessible source code
- Blue screens
- Terrible console and CLI tools
- Malware, spamware, bloatware, viruses
- Windows Updates, Genuine Advantage, phone home, etc.
- Price and the Microsoft Tax
- Inferior development tools
- Terrible platform APIs (Win32 API, DDK, COM, etc)
- Inferior performance
- Broken and annoying security model
- No special files (pty,lo,etc)
- No unified file system hierarchy
- No package management
- Little to no POSIX or other standards support
- etc...

That being said, if you cram enough FOSS onto Windows it can be made 
nearly usable, and also Linux usually runs great in a virtual machine :)


Cheers,
Matthew Brush
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