Re: [SailfishDevel] Follow up on faenil's topics in Community meeting 24.04.2014 @ 10:00 UTC
25.6.2014 17:16, Andrea Bernabei: DISCLAIMER: I'm saying the following words with a smile on my face, I may sound harsh but please believe me, I don't mean to :) Eric, just go into the IRC channel, and ask people there (who are, usually, the most active community members): Sorry for the late reply, I've promised to write my reaction to the ML to Faenil, but did not got to it until now. :) 1) what do you think of TJC as a bug reporting tool? From my experience of using extensively Bugzilla daily I would say that while TJC definitely has a lower barrier to entry than a normal Bugziilla instance. Every Jolla user has an account and TJC serves also other uses than bug reporting increasing its visibility. On the other, for the same reasons the the signal to noise ratio is pretty bad - you have to dig for bug reports in tons of unrelated crap. That the tool was not designed from the ground up doesn't help. There are no components/maintainers, bug states, attachment upload, bug classification, templates, bug linking, etc. 2) do you think it can work? Sure it can but with quite bad efficiency for both bug reporters and developers. but most importantly 3) Are you *actually* reporting bugs on TJC? Sure: https://together.jolla.com/question/39842/bug-sharing-an-image-to-twitter-does-not-validate-message-length/ https://together.jolla.com/question/9306/bug-volume-button-cant-be-used-by-android-applications/ https://together.jolla.com/question/16827/bug-positioning-gives-bogus-numbers-for-horizontalaccuracy-and-verticalaccuracy/ https://together.jolla.com/question/16518/bug-if-cover-element-fails-to-load-application-doesnt-exit-when-closed/ https://together.jolla.com/question/16827/bug-positioning-gives-bogus-numbers-for-horizontalaccuracy-and-verticalaccuracy/ All in all I got any kind of feedback only for the last. If there has been any followup on any of the other ones on Jollas side, I haven't seen them on my end of the tube. I have also opened quite a few RFE and there similarly has not been much feedback from Jolla, at least lately. If others have the same experience I'm afraid they might get the idea no one on the other end is listening and might stop submitting further bugs and RFEs due to the lack of feedback. I heard many people who are not reporting bugs on TJC because they think it's not worth it (for different reasons) and I'm not reporting them myself, because I keep stumbling on unanswered posts. But that is normal, sailors are not developer-care agents, they can't spend all day reading all kind of reports trying to understand which bug is valid, which one is invalid, and then also keep those posts updated with the news! Just a simple suggestion that came up when discussing this on IRC: Tag the TJC bugreports with Jolla bugzilla numbers! While one reaction to this proposal on the IRC was that it would be rude to use internal bug numbers if the bugzilla itself is currently closed, I think it would be a good form of feedback and acknowledgment that the given bug is being worked on. It would also help with bug tracking and deduplication as bugs would have an unique identifier that actually maters. And if not using the Jolla bugzilla numbers, just a simple bug_filled tag would do wonders to at least provide some of feedback. With some sort of automation I guess this could be extended with a bug_closed_x (fixed/wontfix/notabug) tag to provide more feedback and get us a bit closer to proper bug workflow. Hence my point... Kind Regards Martin Kolman ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Follow up on faenil's topics in Community meeting 24.04.2014 @ 10:00 UTC
On Thursday 26 June 2014 07:35 Eric Le Roux wrote: Hence my point... Cheers, Eric Eric, you *really* need to use a MUA that can do proper quoting. I have no idea what was you answer here. -- Med venlig hilsen / Best Regards Thomas Tanghus ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Follow up on faenil's topics in Community meeting 24.04.2014 @ 10:00 UTC
El Friday 27 June 2014, Thomas Tanghus escribió: Eric, you really need to use a MUA that can do proper quoting. I have no idea what was you answer here. FWIW, you can activate the HTML view in KMail (can be done for that message only), and see the response properly. The problem is that you can't do such thing in the mailing list archives: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2014-June/004621.html -- Alex (a.k.a. suy) | GPG ID 0x0B8B0BC2 http://barnacity.net/ | http://disperso.net ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
[SailfishDevel] Follow up on faenil's topics in Community meeting 24.04.2014 @ 10:00 UTC
Dear Community members! There was a fair deal of discussion yesterday during our meeting (see, http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.html)http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.html%29 on two important topics raised by faenil. I hope the following can clarify and give the expected amount of transparency and insight. About the Community Beta Program: I bet it won't be a surprise for any of you but we are currently having such activity with a limited amount of participants. Just a few Community members whom with we interact closely, getting extremely valuable feedback before we launch our SailfishOS updates to the public. It has remained confidential for multiple reasons but in a nutshell, we still need to improve on infrastructures and processes in order to scale-up gracefully. We are confident that we could do so in a not so distant future, but first, we want to make sure the path is neat and clear for both our Community testers and us. Loaning a test device, having feedback channels and needed monitoring is, as you can easily imagine, a costly exercise for any small structure. The mention yesterday of cost of operations is at the core of our decisions, and it's not only about the financial aspect of maintaining infrastructure but getting the most out of any investment we make. Be assured we're committed to bring more of these activities to you, and broaden the scope. The Opt-in way to test single features/patches as well as the Jolla Launcher Alpha testing are here to demonstrate our engagement to get as many of you onboard. From the new-comers to the most seasoned developers, we do it together. Expect more to happen on this very front... About SailfishOS bugzilla instance: We are in a situation where we have multiple input sources to monitor, Nemo Mer bugzillas, together.jolla.com, git repositories... We do have enablers in our internal bugzilla instance to achieve a seamless tracking, and plans to get some automations that will provide more visibility on our activities. On this very topic, I invite you to check https://github.com/bayoteers and also evangelize how awesome our bugzilla extensions are :) In this context, we clearly need to evaluate what would be the benefit of a new instance and what would it be used for so the ROI remains as high as possible. There was a concern that together.jolla.com isn't working for bug reports. Let me assure you that it does, even beyond expectations, because of the tools and process mentioned above that we keep improving. So from my personal perspective, before we do deploy another instance for feedback, I'd rather want to see consolidation (which directly relates to the Nemo middleware migration to Mer). I would suggest we revisit this topic in the future and focus now on the existing above mentioned channels... Cheers, Eric Le Roux Bugzilla TJC admin @ Jolla ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Follow up on faenil's topics in Community meeting 24.04.2014 @ 10:00 UTC
El 25/06/14 16:40, Eric Le Roux escribió: There was a fair deal of discussion yesterday during our meeting (see, http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.html) http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.html%29on two important topics raised by faenil. The URL is not correct... ;-) -- Bye, Manu. manu at manu.ms http://www.manu.ms Manuel Soriano * Lo Perello/Valencia/Spain * ( AbM Compliant ) La política es el arte de buscar o crear problemas, hacer un diagnostico falso, aplicar remedios equivocados para nunca resolverlos. (Graucho Marx y yo) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Follow up on faenil's topics in Community meeting 24.04.2014 @ 10:00 UTC
El 25/06/14 16:40, Eric Le Roux escribió: There was a fair deal of discussion yesterday during our meeting (see, http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.html)http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.html%29 on two important topics raised by faenil. The URL is not correct... ;-) Thanks Manuel! And apologies :) Here: http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.html Cheers, Eric -- Bye, Manu. manu at manu.ms http://www.manu.ms Manuel Soriano * Lo Perello/Valencia/Spain * ( AbM Compliant ) La política es el arte de buscar o crear problemas, hacer un diagnostico falso, aplicar remedios equivocados para nunca resolverlos. (Graucho Marx y yo) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Follow up on faenil's topics in Community meeting 24.04.2014 @ 10:00 UTC
yes, and who's more likely to report valid bugs of the two categories? :D (I say more likely, no offence meant to casual users, I just think the focus for a bug reporting tool should be on power users, which, from the opinions I gathered in the last months, don't have many nice words about TJC) TJC was cool because there was nothing before it...now a few months passed, Jolla should look into specialising the bug reporting offer, or (as Eric is also suggesting) it should make the link with the internal bz so strong that I don't have to be worried if I'm wasting my time by reporting super detailed bugs to a place probably nobody is going to read. 2014-06-25 17:25 GMT+02:00 sfietkonstan...@free.fr: I'm wondering how TJC is handled internally by Jolla. Some insights on how sailors proceed is very welcomed. To reply to Faenil, I would say that it depends on the users. Power users like us are often on IRC and discuss directly with some Sailors. And they can feel that TJC is a mess (especially compared to a bugtracking tool). However, the average Jolla user might just post something on TJC and either forget about it, or just follow his own issue(s). - Mail original - De: Andrea Bernabei and.berna...@gmail.com À: Sailfish OS Developers devel@lists.sailfishos.org Envoyé: Mercredi 25 Juin 2014 17:16:54 Objet: Re: [SailfishDevel] Follow up on faenil's topics in Community meeting 24.04.2014 @ 10:00 UTC DISCLAIMER: I'm saying the following words with a smile on my face, I may sound harsh but please believe me, I don't mean to :) Eric, just go into the IRC channel, and ask people there (who are, usually, the most active community members): 1) what do you think of TJC as a bug reporting tool? 2) do you think it can work? but most importantly 3) Are you *actually* reporting bugs on TJC? I heard many people who are not reporting bugs on TJC because they think it's not worth it (for different reasons) and I'm not reporting them myself, because I keep stumbling on unanswered posts. But that is normal, sailors are not developer-care agents, they can't spend all day reading all kind of reports trying to understand which bug is valid, which one is invalid, and then also keep those posts updated with the news! Hence my point... 2014-06-25 16:54 GMT+02:00 Eric Le Roux eric.ler...@jolla.com : El 25/06/14 16:40, Eric Le Roux escribió: There was a fair deal of discussion yesterday during our meeting (see, http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.html) on two important topics raised by faenil. The URL is not correct... ;-) Thanks Manuel! And apologies :) Here: http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.html Cheers, Eric -- Bye, Manu. manu at manu.ms http://www.manu.ms Manuel Soriano * Lo Perello/Valencia/Spain * ( AbM Compliant ) La política es el arte de buscar o crear problemas, hacer un diagnostico falso, aplicar remedios equivocados para nunca resolverlos. (Graucho Marx y yo) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Follow up on faenil's topics in Community meeting 24.04.2014 @ 10:00 UTC
To avoid misunderstandings: I *do* believe sailors read the threads at TJC, and they file bugs, when they can. The problem, imho, is not sailors not reading, it's TJC having too many reports to be an efficient bug tracking solution. If I were a sailors, and I were to really track all threads on TJC and file bugs in the internal bugzilla, I think I wouldn't have time to keep coding sailfish pieces. Really keeping track of threads in TJC is a fulltime job by itself, we *can't* expect sailors to be able to follow it very close... I'll be *very* happy to be proven wrong...all I want is the best for Jolla 2014-06-25 17:42 GMT+02:00 Andrea Bernabei and.berna...@gmail.com: yes, and who's more likely to report valid bugs of the two categories? :D (I say more likely, no offence meant to casual users, I just think the focus for a bug reporting tool should be on power users, which, from the opinions I gathered in the last months, don't have many nice words about TJC) TJC was cool because there was nothing before it...now a few months passed, Jolla should look into specialising the bug reporting offer, or (as Eric is also suggesting) it should make the link with the internal bz so strong that I don't have to be worried if I'm wasting my time by reporting super detailed bugs to a place probably nobody is going to read. 2014-06-25 17:25 GMT+02:00 sfietkonstan...@free.fr: I'm wondering how TJC is handled internally by Jolla. Some insights on how sailors proceed is very welcomed. To reply to Faenil, I would say that it depends on the users. Power users like us are often on IRC and discuss directly with some Sailors. And they can feel that TJC is a mess (especially compared to a bugtracking tool). However, the average Jolla user might just post something on TJC and either forget about it, or just follow his own issue(s). - Mail original - De: Andrea Bernabei and.berna...@gmail.com À: Sailfish OS Developers devel@lists.sailfishos.org Envoyé: Mercredi 25 Juin 2014 17:16:54 Objet: Re: [SailfishDevel] Follow up on faenil's topics in Community meeting 24.04.2014 @ 10:00 UTC DISCLAIMER: I'm saying the following words with a smile on my face, I may sound harsh but please believe me, I don't mean to :) Eric, just go into the IRC channel, and ask people there (who are, usually, the most active community members): 1) what do you think of TJC as a bug reporting tool? 2) do you think it can work? but most importantly 3) Are you *actually* reporting bugs on TJC? I heard many people who are not reporting bugs on TJC because they think it's not worth it (for different reasons) and I'm not reporting them myself, because I keep stumbling on unanswered posts. But that is normal, sailors are not developer-care agents, they can't spend all day reading all kind of reports trying to understand which bug is valid, which one is invalid, and then also keep those posts updated with the news! Hence my point... 2014-06-25 16:54 GMT+02:00 Eric Le Roux eric.ler...@jolla.com : El 25/06/14 16:40, Eric Le Roux escribió: There was a fair deal of discussion yesterday during our meeting (see, http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.html) on two important topics raised by faenil. The URL is not correct... ;-) Thanks Manuel! And apologies :) Here: http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.html Cheers, Eric -- Bye, Manu. manu at manu.ms http://www.manu.ms Manuel Soriano * Lo Perello/Valencia/Spain * ( AbM Compliant ) La política es el arte de buscar o crear problemas, hacer un diagnostico falso, aplicar remedios equivocados para nunca resolverlos. (Graucho Marx y yo) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
