Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Nicolas Hernandez]

!!! ???


Envoyé depuis ProtonMail mobile



\ Message d'origine 
Le 17 janv. 2023, 22:54, Ian Clarke < i...@freenetproject.org> a écrit :

>
>
>
> Steve,
>
>
>
>
> You're speaking as if you speak on behalf of the Freenet community. Who 
> specifically are you speaking for and what gives you the ability to speak for 
> them?
>
>
>
>
> Ian.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 2:46 PM Steve Dougherty 
> <[st...@asksteved.com][steve_asksteved.com]> wrote:
>
>
> > Hi Ian,
> >
> > I'm surprised. I'm not sure what to say, or what reaction you and the
> > rest of the board expected.
> >
> > This is another demonstration of a complete disconnect between the board
> > of FPI, and the community around Freenet. After giving up initial plans
> > to name Locutus "Freenet 2" in the face of backlash, you and the rest of
> > the board appear to now want still more of Freenet's brand recognition.
> > The hope seems to be that the Freenet community, having not been
> > consulted, and reasonably assumed to disagree, will undertake the effort
> > to rename themselves the Freenet Classic community.
> >
> > I don't think this will happen. It would require buy-in, and it has
> > none.
> >
> > \- Steve
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> \--
>
>
> Ian Clarke
> Founder, The Freenet Project
> Email: [i...@freenetproject.org][ian_freenetproject.org]


[steve_asksteved.com]: mailto:st...@asksteved.com
[ian_freenetproject.org]: mailto:i...@freenetproject.org

publickey - EmailAddress(s=nicolas.hernandez@aleph-networks.com) - 0xAEB2E31C.asc
Description: application/pgp-keys


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

Ian Clarke  writes:
> Apologies to mutt users, but Freenet's mainstream brand recognition has been 
> on an uninterrupted
> downward trajectory since 2004:
>
> freenet-trend.png

You are showing the US-trend. Let’s look at the trend in a country where
there was PR done:


This is the trend in Germany, and you’ll see it going up again in the
past year where I gave a presentation for a German non-profit.

What was missing for spreading was not technical. Missing was that we
did not talk enough in public about Freenet.

And brand recognition is good among long term internet freedom
activists, but only for the scope and use-cases of the current Freenet,
not for the different scope of Locutus.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

Dear Freenet Contributors and Enthusiasts,

I want to clear up some of the confusion.

Ian Clarke  writes:
> I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to inform you of an important 
> change that the Freenet Project board voted on unanimously on Friday.
> After much discussion over the past 18 months

Ian wrote me private emails about his plan and I strongly objected. He
chose to ignore that. I do not know whether he talked to someone else.

There are no public archives, because these were just private emails.

After he agreed that others could email him, I talked to other release
managers and core developers.⁰ It is a shared understanding that this
renaming would damage Freenet. We had hoped that Ian would not go
through with this, so we did not write in public to prevent damage to
the project.

After he now wrote, the damage is done. We can only try to minimize it.

⁰: Before he said that other developers can contact him, I held it as a
   confidential discussion out of respect for the privacy of personal
   communication.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 5:24 PM  wrote:

Thank you for your mostly reasonable response :)

On January 17, 2023 11:01:39 PM UTC, Ian Clarke 
> wrote:
> >I greatly appreciate the work you and the other maintainers have put into
> >Fred, which is why I took the time to listen to your concerns over the
> past
> >18 months.
>
> Is the a public place to review these, or FMS posts I have missed?
>

They were one-on-one emails between Arne and myself, although I had assumed
he would keep interested parties abreast of our conversation, at least at a
high level. I didn't ask him to keep anything a secret.


> >In my view and that of the board, Locutus is the best hope to achieve
> >Freenet's mission, given everything I know in 2023. That's not to say that
> >Locutus will replace Fred, it will not - because they serve different
> >needs. But Fred is a 23-year-old codebase, and the world is very different
> >from the world I saw when I started it, as is technology.
> >
> >I don't want conflict with you or the core maintainers, but the decision
> >has been made.
>
> Being authoritarian, especially in secret tends to cause conflict.
>

There was no secrecy, Arne was the person I thought most likely to disagree
and I sought his feedback starting 18 months ago.

In the end, I was unpersuaded by his argument, but that doesn't make me an
authoritarian. My job is to achieve the project's mission, I can't do that
if everyone gets a veto, that would be an abdication of my responsibility.
What I can do is hear people out, which is what I did with Arne.

Perhaps it was an incorrect assumption that Arne would relay our
discussions to other interested parties, in which case I apologize.

>Fighting it is only going to consume time, resources, emotion, and
> >attention that distracts from the goals that I know drive all of us.
>
> This is where I don't understand, and thus disagree.
> Renaming Fred to Freenet Classic will take time and resources, as will
> renaming Locutus to Freenet.


It seems like a way to gather all the positive branding and support the
> existing Freenet community has generated and built.


Apologies to mutt users, but Freenet's mainstream brand recognition has
been on an uninterrupted downward trajectory since 2004:

[image: freenet-trend.png]

I don't say this to disrespect Fred, but the value of "Freenet" as a brand
is in the fact that it literally describes our mission better than any
other name I've been able to come up with, the value is not in its current
mainstream brand recognition - which is zero.


> Would it not be better to also not confuse future users, they will
> probably stumble on outdated references for years to come? This change
> seems counterproductive with very limited benefit. I fail to see how
> keeping Locutus as Locutus is more risky and less rewarding?
>

I don't think people are confused by the concept of a sequel, just look at
Terminator 2 or Aliens. This is the same thing, just software not movies.
The websites will mutually link to each other, so any confusion will be
resolved rapidly upon visiting either website.

Like I said, there is risk - but in my view, the risk of inaction is
greater, and we may not have much more time in which to try. I need to give
it my best shot.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[freenet]

On January 17, 2023 11:01:39 PM UTC, Ian Clarke  wrote:
>I greatly appreciate the work you and the other maintainers have put into
>Fred, which is why I took the time to listen to your concerns over the past
>18 months.

Is the a public place to review these, or FMS posts I have missed?

>
>The bottom line is that after hearing you out, I simply don't agree with
>you.
>

So you veto it?

>In particular, I do not believe that the proposed changes will harm Fred,
>but rather, Fred should get a significant boost from the attention Locutus
>will receive if we are successful. There is no question that there is risk,
>but there is risk in every decision.
>
>My primary concern is for the next generation, who may ask me in 30 years
>if I did everything in my power to keep the Internet a force for freedom
>rather than oppression. This has always been the core mission of Freenet,
>not any specific codebase or feature set. *We are losing this battle, and
>we need to take action before it is lost*. Nobody gets a veto over this,
>not even Fred's maintainers or members of the current user base, value them
>as I do.
>

I agree with you here, Locutus is needed to help fulfill the goals outlined 
above.

>In my view and that of the board, Locutus is the best hope to achieve
>Freenet's mission, given everything I know in 2023. That's not to say that
>Locutus will replace Fred, it will not - because they serve different
>needs. But Fred is a 23-year-old codebase, and the world is very different
>from the world I saw when I started it, as is technology.
>
>I don't want conflict with you or the core maintainers, but the decision
>has been made.

Being authoritarian, especially in secret tends to cause conflict.
>
>Fighting it is only going to consume time, resources, emotion, and
>attention that distracts from the goals that I know drive all of us.

This is where I don't understand, and thus disagree. 
Renaming Fred to Freenet Classic will take time and resources, as will renaming 
Locutus to Freenet. It seems like a way to gather all the positive branding and 
support the existing Freenet community has generated and built. Would it not be 
better to also not confuse future users, they will probably stumble on outdated 
references for years to come? This change seems counterproductive with very 
limited benefit. I fail to see how keeping Locutus as Locutus is more risky and 
less rewarding?

>
>Ian.
>
>On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 4:15 PM Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide 
>wrote:
>
>>
>> Ian Clarke  writes:
>> > You're speaking as if you speak on behalf of the Freenet community. Who
>> specifically are you speaking for and what gives you the ability to speak
>> for
>> > them?
>>
>> I share the sentiment. Steve spoke to me before sending this message,
>> and he also speaks for me, the release manager of Freenet. Also David,
>> Florent, and xor disagree strongly with the renaming plan. These are
>> most of the non-anonymous core developers of Freenet.
>>
>> And the actual Freenet community that communicates on Freenet via FMS
>> and Sone is absolutely enraged over this.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Arne
>>
>> > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 2:46 PM Steve Dougherty 
>> wrote:
>> >  I'm surprised. I'm not sure what to say, or what reaction you and the
>> >  rest of the board expected.
>> >
>> >  This is another demonstration of a complete disconnect between the board
>> >  of FPI, and the community around Freenet. After giving up initial plans
>> >  to name Locutus "Freenet 2" in the face of backlash, you and the rest of
>> >  the board appear to now want still more of Freenet's brand recognition.
>> >  The hope seems to be that the Freenet community, having not been
>> >  consulted, and reasonably assumed to disagree, will undertake the effort
>> >  to rename themselves the Freenet Classic community.
>> >
>> >  I don't think this will happen. It would require buy-in, and it has
>> >  none.
>> >
>> >  - Steve
>>
>>
>> --
>> Unpolitisch sein
>> heißt politisch sein,
>> ohne es zu merken.
>> draketo.de
>>
>
>

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

Arne,

I greatly appreciate the work you and the other maintainers have put into
Fred, which is why I took the time to listen to your concerns over the past
18 months.

The bottom line is that after hearing you out, I simply don't agree with
you.

In particular, I do not believe that the proposed changes will harm Fred,
but rather, Fred should get a significant boost from the attention Locutus
will receive if we are successful. There is no question that there is risk,
but there is risk in every decision.

My primary concern is for the next generation, who may ask me in 30 years
if I did everything in my power to keep the Internet a force for freedom
rather than oppression. This has always been the core mission of Freenet,
not any specific codebase or feature set. *We are losing this battle, and
we need to take action before it is lost*. Nobody gets a veto over this,
not even Fred's maintainers or members of the current user base, value them
as I do.

In my view and that of the board, Locutus is the best hope to achieve
Freenet's mission, given everything I know in 2023. That's not to say that
Locutus will replace Fred, it will not - because they serve different
needs. But Fred is a 23-year-old codebase, and the world is very different
from the world I saw when I started it, as is technology.

I don't want conflict with you or the core maintainers, but the decision
has been made.

Fighting it is only going to consume time, resources, emotion, and
attention that distracts from the goals that I know drive all of us.

Ian.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 4:15 PM Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide 
wrote:

>
> Ian Clarke  writes:
> > You're speaking as if you speak on behalf of the Freenet community. Who
> specifically are you speaking for and what gives you the ability to speak
> for
> > them?
>
> I share the sentiment. Steve spoke to me before sending this message,
> and he also speaks for me, the release manager of Freenet. Also David,
> Florent, and xor disagree strongly with the renaming plan. These are
> most of the non-anonymous core developers of Freenet.
>
> And the actual Freenet community that communicates on Freenet via FMS
> and Sone is absolutely enraged over this.
>
> Best wishes,
> Arne
>
> > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 2:46 PM Steve Dougherty 
> wrote:
> >  I'm surprised. I'm not sure what to say, or what reaction you and the
> >  rest of the board expected.
> >
> >  This is another demonstration of a complete disconnect between the board
> >  of FPI, and the community around Freenet. After giving up initial plans
> >  to name Locutus "Freenet 2" in the face of backlash, you and the rest of
> >  the board appear to now want still more of Freenet's brand recognition.
> >  The hope seems to be that the Freenet community, having not been
> >  consulted, and reasonably assumed to disagree, will undertake the effort
> >  to rename themselves the Freenet Classic community.
> >
> >  I don't think this will happen. It would require buy-in, and it has
> >  none.
> >
> >  - Steve
>
>
> --
> Unpolitisch sein
> heißt politisch sein,
> ohne es zu merken.
> draketo.de
>


-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[s7r]

Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:


Ian Clarke  writes:

You're speaking as if you speak on behalf of the Freenet community. Who 
specifically are you speaking for and what gives you the ability to speak for
them?


I share the sentiment. Steve spoke to me before sending this message,
and he also speaks for me, the release manager of Freenet. Also David,
Florent, and xor disagree strongly with the renaming plan. These are
most of the non-anonymous core developers of Freenet.

And the actual Freenet community that communicates on Freenet via FMS
and Sone is absolutely enraged over this.

Best wishes,
Arne


Steve speaks in my name too, and I strongly share Steve and Arne's 
sentiments.




OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

Board discussions are confidential, this is common practice for non-profits
so that board members can speak freely. I'm happy to answer any questions
you have about this decision.

The grant from FUTO last year was hardly
 a secret, the video about it
had over 21,000 views.



On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 4:35 PM  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> As a non-contributor of code, but running nodes, and donating
> occasionally. How can I view the discussion that the board had? All I can
> find public tax documents that they received over $100,000 this year in
> donations. There is no board meeting minutes or mailing list (or paper
> trail)
>
> An anti-censorship project should be more transparent.
>
> Thanks,
>
> On January 17, 2023 10:06:51 PM UTC, "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <
> arne_...@web.de> wrote:
> >
> >Ian Clarke  writes:
> >> You're speaking as if you speak on behalf of the Freenet community. Who
> specifically are you speaking for and what gives you the ability to speak
> for
> >> them?
> >
> >I share the sentiment. Steve spoke to me before sending this message,
> >and he also speaks for me, the release manager of Freenet. Also David,
> >Florent, and xor disagree strongly with the renaming plan. These are
> >most of the non-anonymous core developers of Freenet.
> >
> >And the actual Freenet community that communicates on Freenet via FMS
> >and Sone is absolutely enraged over this.
> >
> >Best wishes,
> >Arne
> >
> >> On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 2:46 PM Steve Dougherty 
> wrote:
> >>  I'm surprised. I'm not sure what to say, or what reaction you and the
> >>  rest of the board expected.
> >>
> >>  This is another demonstration of a complete disconnect between the
> board
> >>  of FPI, and the community around Freenet. After giving up initial plans
> >>  to name Locutus "Freenet 2" in the face of backlash, you and the rest
> of
> >>  the board appear to now want still more of Freenet's brand recognition.
> >>  The hope seems to be that the Freenet community, having not been
> >>  consulted, and reasonably assumed to disagree, will undertake the
> effort
> >>  to rename themselves the Freenet Classic community.
> >>
> >>  I don't think this will happen. It would require buy-in, and it has
> >>  none.
> >>
> >>  - Steve
> >
> >
>


-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[freenet]

Hi, 

As a non-contributor of code, but running nodes, and donating occasionally. How 
can I view the discussion that the board had? All I can find public tax 
documents that they received over $100,000 this year in donations. There is no 
board meeting minutes or mailing list (or paper trail)

An anti-censorship project should be more transparent.

Thanks,

On January 17, 2023 10:06:51 PM UTC, "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" 
 wrote:
>
>Ian Clarke  writes:
>> You're speaking as if you speak on behalf of the Freenet community. Who 
>> specifically are you speaking for and what gives you the ability to speak for
>> them?
>
>I share the sentiment. Steve spoke to me before sending this message,
>and he also speaks for me, the release manager of Freenet. Also David,
>Florent, and xor disagree strongly with the renaming plan. These are
>most of the non-anonymous core developers of Freenet.
>
>And the actual Freenet community that communicates on Freenet via FMS
>and Sone is absolutely enraged over this.
>
>Best wishes,
>Arne
>
>> On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 2:46 PM Steve Dougherty  wrote:
>>  I'm surprised. I'm not sure what to say, or what reaction you and the
>>  rest of the board expected.
>>
>>  This is another demonstration of a complete disconnect between the board
>>  of FPI, and the community around Freenet. After giving up initial plans
>>  to name Locutus "Freenet 2" in the face of backlash, you and the rest of
>>  the board appear to now want still more of Freenet's brand recognition.
>>  The hope seems to be that the Freenet community, having not been
>>  consulted, and reasonably assumed to disagree, will undertake the effort
>>  to rename themselves the Freenet Classic community.
>>
>>  I don't think this will happen. It would require buy-in, and it has
>>  none.
>>
>>  - Steve
>
>

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

Ian Clarke  writes:
> You're speaking as if you speak on behalf of the Freenet community. Who 
> specifically are you speaking for and what gives you the ability to speak for
> them?

I share the sentiment. Steve spoke to me before sending this message,
and he also speaks for me, the release manager of Freenet. Also David,
Florent, and xor disagree strongly with the renaming plan. These are
most of the non-anonymous core developers of Freenet.

And the actual Freenet community that communicates on Freenet via FMS
and Sone is absolutely enraged over this.

Best wishes,
Arne

> On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 2:46 PM Steve Dougherty  wrote:
>  I'm surprised. I'm not sure what to say, or what reaction you and the
>  rest of the board expected.
>
>  This is another demonstration of a complete disconnect between the board
>  of FPI, and the community around Freenet. After giving up initial plans
>  to name Locutus "Freenet 2" in the face of backlash, you and the rest of
>  the board appear to now want still more of Freenet's brand recognition.
>  The hope seems to be that the Freenet community, having not been
>  consulted, and reasonably assumed to disagree, will undertake the effort
>  to rename themselves the Freenet Classic community.
>
>  I don't think this will happen. It would require buy-in, and it has
>  none.
>
>  - Steve


-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

Steve,

You're speaking as if you speak on behalf of the Freenet community. Who
specifically are you speaking for and what gives you the ability to speak
for them?

Ian.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 2:46 PM Steve Dougherty  wrote:

> Hi Ian,
>
> I'm surprised. I'm not sure what to say, or what reaction you and the
> rest of the board expected.
>
> This is another demonstration of a complete disconnect between the board
> of FPI, and the community around Freenet. After giving up initial plans
> to name Locutus "Freenet 2" in the face of backlash, you and the rest of
> the board appear to now want still more of Freenet's brand recognition.
> The hope seems to be that the Freenet community, having not been
> consulted, and reasonably assumed to disagree, will undertake the effort
> to rename themselves the Freenet Classic community.
>
> I don't think this will happen. It would require buy-in, and it has
> none.
>
> - Steve
>


-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Steve Dougherty]

Hi Ian,

I'm surprised. I'm not sure what to say, or what reaction you and the
rest of the board expected.

This is another demonstration of a complete disconnect between the board
of FPI, and the community around Freenet. After giving up initial plans
to name Locutus "Freenet 2" in the face of backlash, you and the rest of
the board appear to now want still more of Freenet's brand recognition.
The hope seems to be that the Freenet community, having not been
consulted, and reasonably assumed to disagree, will undertake the effort
to rename themselves the Freenet Classic community.

I don't think this will happen. It would require buy-in, and it has
none.

- Steve

Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

Dear Freenet users and developers,

I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to inform you of an
important change that the Freenet Project board voted on unanimously
on Friday. After much discussion over the past 18 months, we have decided
to rename the codebase and software known internally as "Fred," to "Freenet
Classic."

In addition, we are announcing that the new codebase, known internally as
"Locutus," will be renamed to "Freenet." We understand that this is a big
change and it carries risk, but the board believes that this risk is
necessary in order to further the project's mission.

It is important to note that this change does *not* mean that Locutus is
replacing Fred, which solves related but different problems. We will ensure
that where Fred is the appropriate tool for people they will be directed to
it.  Freenetproject.org will remain focused on Fred while linking to
Locutus - as it has been for over two decades - while freenet.org will
place more emphasis on Locutus, while still linking to Fred.

We will be implementing these changes over the coming days and weeks and
would be grateful for your ideas and suggestions on how best to do this.

Thank you,

Ian

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org