Re: [DDN] Tim Berners-Lee: Weaving A Semantic Web
Technical solutions attract money -- because so many still believe there *must* be a silver bullet? What if the technology world took the approach to have a three year moratorium on such things as the Semantic Web? What if they could attract the same resouces and put those resources to put in place wider - much wider - application of that which is already invented? affordable? under-used? Don't we need more soft power humans? More cyber-cafe's? More models that show concrete, tangible results? Particularly ones which were scaleable? John Hibbs http://www.bfranklin.edu/johnhibbs At 7:20 PM +0545 10/15/04, Layton Montgomery wrote: Reading through these exchanges and through the Technology Review article was my first attempt to understand what the Semantic Web really is. Personally, I can see clear value in this, both from the view of refining searches to a much higher degree than is currently possible; and from the view of being able to synthesize disparate data across web pages and computer applications. For instance, I might want to do identify conferences being held in 2005 in Nepal having something to do with the Internet. Presumably, a Semantic Web search engine would allow you to not only identify keywords or phrases, but also what type of data they are. So I would search for something like: date = 2005, country = Nepal, event = conference, and theme = Internet. Of course there would need to be a lot of fuzzy programming behind that so that the search engine would identify reasonable variations of my search terms, but search engines today already do this, so I would not see any problem in this way. Web site authoring tools would be able to create or identify the existing files which contain the types of data in the web page; for many forms of data, they might do so automatically. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Tim Berners-Lee: Weaving A Semantic Web
Reading through these exchanges and through the Technology Review article was my first attempt to understand what the Semantic Web really is. Personally, I can see clear value in this, both from the view of refining searches to a much higher degree than is currently possible; and from the view of being able to synthesize disparate data across web pages and computer applications. For instance, I might want to do identify conferences being held in 2005 in Nepal having something to do with the Internet. Presumably, a Semantic Web search engine would allow you to not only identify keywords or phrases, but also what type of data they are. So I would search for something like: date = 2005, country = Nepal, event = conference, and theme = Internet. Of course there would need to be a lot of fuzzy programming behind that so that the search engine would identify reasonable variations of my search terms, but search engines today already do this, so I would not see any problem in this way. Web site authoring tools would be able to create or identify the existing files which contain the types of data in the web page; for many forms of data, they might do so automatically. What worries me about the structure, as it is described in Andy's original posting, is the fact that all these data fields would be defined in other files on the Internet. One could have literally hundreds of links to other web pages to define one's data on each given web page. To load one single web page in your browser, your computer would need to access a hundred different files from all over to get all the actual bits of data it needs. If you cannot access a given file, then the word or phrase being defined will not load at all. At present, we download the html file, the various graphics, and sometimes a cascading style sheet. For heavy web pages, that in itself can often take quite a while. Coding for the Semantic Web would drastically increase the size of the file that contains it, in addition to all of this other downloading. A simple text-only web page would no longer be possible. At present, we often have at least the text appear, and then the other bits and pieces continue loading as we start to read. With the Semantic Web, though, the individual words in the text would be downloaded from multiple different files, making this impossible. They would randomly and gradually appear, as graphics do nowadays. With this structure, I worry that one would need a broadband connection to effectively use the Semantic Web, which would further increase the digital divide. HTML pages would be invisible to Semantic Web applications since they contain none of the identifiers needed to make it functional. Individuals and organizations might increasingly start to write or rewrite their web pages with this coding so that their information would be identifiable to target audiences through the features of the Semantic Web. If such a trend were to proceed to becoming a standard for web pages, those with low levels of connectivity would be effectively cut off from the information that is theoretically available, even more so than they are now. As I mentioned at the beginning, this is my first exploration of the concept and the structure of the Semantic Web, so some or all of my fears may be unfounded. If anybody else knows more about the technical issues which would have implications for exacerbation of the digital divide, I would be interested to hear about them. Layton Montgomery /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ / \/ \/ \/ \/ \ / \ // \ / \/ \ / Layton Montgomery \ Executive Secretary Mountain Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mtnforum.org c/o ICIMOD GPO Box 3226 Kathmandu, Nepal ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Tim Berners-Lee: Weaving a Semantic Web
Hi John
You are right to speculate about these issues. Remember that old cliche,
Be careful for what you wish, you may get it. There are many fables
which also echo these ideas, including Midas.
There are those who are so enthralled with the technological
possibilities that they become irritated at those who would riaise
philosophical issues whether it is around the digital divide, Open
Source, or Open Access and their variants. One can remember nuclear
energy which was going to be so cheap that we wouldn't have to meter our
electricity, the Green Revolution and the entire appropriate
technology movement.
As I have mentioned, elsewhere, Dr. Gelernter, a victim of the infamous
unibomber, wrote that at the end of WWII science/technology had
realized the largest dreams presented at the 1939 World's Fair and yet,
the problems which plague humans are still with us today.
If one understands the underlying issues surrounding the arena of
Knowledge Management, one understands, quickly, that while technology
is a facilitator, the problems of knowledge access and exchange are
primarily contextural and human, issues not resolvable by technology.
Does this mean that one capitulates? No! But what it does suggest is
that stringing physical and virtual wires and distributing hardware in
remote locations bypassed by the digital highway is a simple default
position. It is easy and safe to see and touch hardware. It borders on
cargo cult thinking. There be dragons here.
thoughts?
tom abeles
John Hibbs wrote:
Thank you Andy Carvin for a fine, fine post about an exceptionally
complex subject - the Semantic Web. Stephen Downes has helped me along
with this sort of thing, especially with his daily publication,
http://www.downes.ca/news/OLDaily.htm
{Plug for Downes: Nobody on this list won't already have a full mail
box; but if ever there was a publication that deserved attention by
innovative people, it that which Downes manages to write almost every
day.}
But -- About the Semantic Web - Am I the only one who thinks this all
sounds Orwellian? Could all this end up being counter productive?
While I have written extensively that we live in a globalized and
Googlized world, I often wonder if the attraction of all this
knowledge sharing and inter, intra, instant, international networking
doesn't - in the end - cause us to be too cemented to the new machinery?
When is it timely to NOT turn on our desktop? laptop? PDA? cell phone?
iPod? pager? Did I miss something by not watching C-span? posting to
my favorite blog? reading the political editorials? most recent
technology magazine?
When do I get time for Sports Illustrated? Hustler Magazine? My
grandchildren?
What is the last straw that we can put on this camel? Or our own
individual camel? At what point do administrators and teachers throw
up their hands and extend to the innovators the middle finger? Does it
make for greater divides? Or smaller ones?
Is there never a time when it's okay to just go out and play?
*Nobody* knows the answer to these questions. I just raise them,
partly to thank Andy and others on this list for their observations
and commentary -- which I value and read closely. But also, partly,to
vent my own frustration - and worry - that while this stuff is both
fuel for deep thinking it's also an addictive that makes for fat
arses and, maybe, less love making?
Should we, like cigarettes, put warnings on our packages?
John Hibbs
http://www.bfranklin.edu/johnhibbs
At 2:45 PM -0400 9/29/04, Andy Carvin wrote:
Tim Berners-Lee: Weaving a Semantic Web
http://www.edwebproject.org/andy/blog/
The MIT Technology Review Emerging Technologies conference featured a
keynote by Tim Berners-Lee, inventor of the World Wide Web. Promising
a one-hour talk in 30 minutes, Berners-Lee gave an animated,
rapid-fire presentation -- more like a 90-minute talk in 30 minutes
-- about the Semantic Web, his latest initiative.
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Re: [DDN] Tim Berners-Lee: Weaving A Semantic Web
I'm not sure if I understand the semantic web; but if I do, I don't think I want it. Technically, the sematic web requires meta data to be added to the url. In addition to complicating the url it presupposes knowing how others will view or use the data. Currently, meta tags embedded in the web page meet the need of identifying and typing content. Philosophically, rather than having content labeled with a standard identifier, I would prefer that search engines look for content that is relevant to the search terms. Assuming accurate labeling the best we could hope for is a situation similar to searches returning paid results. In other words, we will be dependent on the publisher to apply the standard identifiers in an accurate and comprehensive manner. Expecting publishers to look beyond their purposes is unreasonable and fanciful. What will a semantic web give us that we don't have now? Andy Carvin wrote: Tim Berners-Lee: Weaving A Semantic Web http://www.edwebproject.org/andy/blog/ But from the very beginning of the Web, Berners-Lee had hoped that he would be able to incorporate descriptive information into the Webs fundamental design, but for various reasons it didnt make the cut. One thing I wanted to put in the original design was the typing of links, he said. For example, lets say you link your website to another site. At the moment, the hyperlink connecting them contains very little information: just an address to get to the other websites content. But Berners-Lees idea was to include metadata with each hyperlink to describe *the relationship* between the two sites. For example: do the people linking their two websites know each other personally, professionally, or not at all? If theyre colleagues, how are they working together, and in what fields? Where are they working? -- Larry Phillips FutureCraft http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~ljp Quantum 2000: Education for Today and Tomorrow http://www.ecn.ab.ca/quantum Alberta Consumers' Association http://www.ecn.ab.ca/consumer Conversations about education Ed Conversation mailing list http://www.topica.com/lists/edconversation/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
RE: [DDN] Tim Berners-Lee: Weaving A Semantic Web
I am not sure I understand either. But we should be hesitant of jumping to too many conclusions, at least just yet. Tim is clearly an intellectual force capable of jumping over boundaries most of us cannot even see let alone jump over. We should ask Mr. Tim Berners Lee (TBL)to be more specific and to answer those basic questions.. For example I cannot really understand how his social networking tools would work--how is what described below different from a listserv or an affinity group that forms. I think that he wants to develop a system independent of the way we humans naturally like to communicate--mimicking in the online world what happens in the so called real world. If that is the case how can we trust that the machines and the artificial intelligence networks will not use highly personal information against us? Because one of the reasons we communicate in these patterns is precisely because we want to be cautious about information closest to us. Surely someone as brilliant as TBL can provide some more concrete answers and examples to help us ordinary folk out. Relevant Quote below Its also helping build powerful social networking tools -- friend-of-a-friend networks in which people write a little bit about themselves as metadata, and connections get formed based on this information. Who knows what sort of Google will be built on top of this stuff, Berners-Lee wondered. Computers will be able to browse the Web and find what were looking for based on what they know about our needs and the descriptive metadata they find on relevant websites. A human being browse the Web? That will be a little old fashioned, he joked. Are we heading for a situation where the web browses human beings? Good idea for a science fiction story perhaps but we are not ready for that yet TBL I dont think.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Larry Phillips Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:39 PM To: The Digital Divide Network discussion group Subject: Re: [DDN] Tim Berners-Lee: Weaving A Semantic Web I'm not sure if I understand the semantic web; but if I do, I don't think I want it. Technically, the sematic web requires meta data to be added to the url. In addition to complicating the url it presupposes knowing how others will view or use the data. Currently, meta tags embedded in the web page meet the need of identifying and typing content. Philosophically, rather than having content labeled with a standard identifier, I would prefer that search engines look for content that is relevant to the search terms. Assuming accurate labeling the best we could hope for is a situation similar to searches returning paid results. In other words, we will be dependent on the publisher to apply the standard identifiers in an accurate and comprehensive manner. Expecting publishers to look beyond their purposes is unreasonable and fanciful. What will a semantic web give us that we don't have now? Andy Carvin wrote: Tim Berners-Lee: Weaving A Semantic Web http://www.edwebproject.org/andy/blog/ But from the very beginning of the Web, Berners-Lee had hoped that he would be able to incorporate descriptive information into the Webs fundamental design, but for various reasons it didnt make the cut. One thing I wanted to put in the original design was the typing of links, he said. For example, lets say you link your website to another site. At the moment, the hyperlink connecting them contains very little information: just an address to get to the other websites content. But Berners-Lees idea was to include metadata with each hyperlink to describe *the relationship* between the two sites. For example: do the people linking their two websites know each other personally, professionally, or not at all? If theyre colleagues, how are they working together, and in what fields? Where are they working? -- Larry Phillips FutureCraft http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~ljp Quantum 2000: Education for Today and Tomorrow http://www.ecn.ab.ca/quantum Alberta Consumers' Association http://www.ecn.ab.ca/consumer Conversations about education Ed Conversation mailing list http://www.topica.com/lists/edconversation/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Tim Berners-Lee: Weaving A Semantic Web
fyi, MIT Technology Review has an interview with TB-L in its latest issue. The very first question they ask him is basically, why is no one particularly excited about this new work of yours? So the article is able to delve into a bit more of a detailed response than what he gave during his speech. http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/10/frauenfelder1004.asp -- -- Andy Carvin Program Director EDC Center for Media Community acarvin @ edc . org http://www.digitaldividenetwork.org http://www.edwebproject.org/andy/blog/ -- ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
